Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions
A delicious podcast hosted by Lolly, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a blended family. She has three CIS daughters, one trans son, one trans stepson, one CIS stepson, a straight husband, a dog, a stepdog, a gay ex-husband, and a Carlos (ex-husband's husband.) Please join us as we explore the sweet, savory, and sometimes bitter offerings of life.
Laurel Shea (aka Lolly) is a licensed marriage and family therapist in Washington State. You can find more information regarding her therapy practice at https://www.laurelshea.com/.
Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions
Art, Empowerment, and Body Image Evolution
Join us on an eye-opening exploration with Kyle Rock, a remarkable artist and actor with a passion for body positivity. Inspired during his time in Glasgow, Kyle's journey into art was fueled by his love for comics and animation, ultimately taking a bold turn towards representing plus-size figures, especially women. This episode dives deep into how a friend's challenge to depict plus-size pinup art became a pivotal moment in his artistic journey, sparking a new direction that celebrates diversity and challenges societal norms.
Our conversation uncovers the dynamic interplay between art, empowerment, and personal expression, highlighting Kyle's ability to capture the essence of body positivity. Through touching stories, such as a commission that forever altered his views on nudity, and an interaction with a young adult at Comic-Con, we explore the profound impact of representation. These narratives emphasize the power of seeing oneself reflected in art and media, addressing complex themes like the male gaze, feminism, and the necessity of showcasing diverse body types in today's world.
We wrap up by delving into the societal shifts towards inclusivity, examining the challenges and triumphs of portraying diverse bodies in media. From tackling fatphobia and fetishization to navigating beauty standards of the past, we reflect on the cultural journey towards acceptance and the role art plays in fostering this change. With gratitude, I express appreciation for the insightful dialogue and underscore the importance of professional help when needed, reminding listeners that the perspectives shared are personal insights and not a substitute for professional advice.
This podcast was originally recorded on 11-19-22 for "The Josh and Lolly Podcast."
#Art #BodyPositivity #InclusivityInArt # DiversityInArt
Instagram @lollyweed78
Logo Art by Kyle Rock - https://kylerockart.wixsite.com/website
Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions. Welcome to Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions. Lolly is a licensed marriage and family therapist and you are invited to join her as she delves into sweet, savory and sometimes bitter offerings of life. We hope you enjoy.
Lolly:Welcome again to Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions.
Josh Weed:Today we are here, as always in Tacoma, washington, but we have a guest today.
Lolly:Woo.
Josh Weed:Do you want to introduce our guest?
Lolly:Yes, I do want to introduce our guest, and I am super excited about this guest. We are having Kyle Rock on and he is an artist and actor and I particularly enjoy Kyle's art because he portrays body positive art and I think it's incredibly important that we have artists like Kyle out there to kind of represent populations that maybe aren't shown in art as much. And I'm going to kind of let maybe Kyle talk a little bit about, like, what kind of art do you do? What inspired it? We'll go from there.
Kyle Rock:Sure, sure, sure, okay. So, hello everyone, kyle here. So, wow, that's a big question, I guess. How did it all start, um, but, uh, so, as just me personally, I've always loved animation, I've always loved comic books. These are things that I've grown up loving and appreciating and, um, and I guess how I got specifically to where I am now. We'll do kind of the the short version first. I guess um was when, uh, I was looking kind of for a hobby for uh, 10 or so years ago and uh, and I just kind of just started drawing um, and it was a way to fill the time, especially I was in grad school at the time and I took the train every day, uh, which was roughly 30 minutes to an hour.
Lolly:Were you somewhere cool at that time.
Kyle Rock:I was somewhere cool at that time. I was attending graduate school in Glasgow, Scotland.
Lolly:Yeah, that's awesome. Just as an FYI, we've known Kyle for a long time, so that's why the leading questions are happening. No, I just happen to be really into him. Just stumbled upon him, like I think that Kyle might have gone to a grad school. That was really cool, I think. Maybe.
Josh Weed:I get the feeling.
Kyle Rock:It was kind of a big deal. Yeah, it really was yeah.
Kyle Rock:And so I was taking the train every day from our little flat outside of downtown Glasgow into downtown Glasgow and I was, uh, I was drawing every day. Um, basically, um, instead of reading my textbooks, which I shouldn't do, I was drawing, um, and kind of one thing led to another and, um, you know, let's we'll just be completely honest about the whole thing I've been attracted to um large circle women my whole life, and so it was something I was kind of on the periphery of drawing, you know, I was drawing around it and kind of drawing them when I could and everything like that. But then a friend of mine what really kicked it off was a friend of mine started drawing Disney style pinups, disney princesses, in kind of classic 1942 style pinup poses, and she's a really good friend of mine and I was chatting with her and I'd been sharing my drawings with her for a while and as she was growing as an artist, I was growing as an artist, a traditional, like you know, pen and paper art and everything like that. We were both doing that at the same time and sharing it together a lot. And so, uh, she was following what I was drawing and I was following what she was drawing and I told her one day I said you should draw one of them like plus size.
Kyle Rock:That'd be really cute if you did one of your disney um princess pinups as a plus size girl, because I think that would be a really cute and be really good at it. And see, you don't see it very often. And um, and she told me kind of straight up, she actually was like no, I'm not going to do that, and I was like oh, really Uh, and she was like yeah, because I think actually you need to do that, um, uh and uh. So this was kind of right, I mean it was just kind of like no I'm not gonna do that.
Kyle Rock:I was like what, does she have something against it or no? Uh, and actually she has. She has drawn plus size pinups many times now, um, but it was really kind of.
Josh Weed:It was her kind of sassy way of she was seeing you need to do the thing yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, it was.
Kyle Rock:It was her way of being like and that's what she literally said. She said you need to draw it because yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, it was, it was her way of being like and that's what she literally said. She said you need to draw it because a um she's like I think you're good enough, you're, you know, you've been practicing, you've been working hard, like um. You need to be doing this because and the reason you need to be doing this is because you care about it.
Josh Weed:That's right, something that you're passionate about, and that's so true that's so any art you know like the best art is when you're looking out there and the thing you really want to see doesn't exist. Any artist that finds their way. There's some of that happening where they're like. I need to make this thing exist. And so she saw you and saw your fledgling artistry and was like, actually you need to get your pen out and start drawing it yourself.
Kyle Rock:That's great yeah and so I owe a lot to her as one of my growing art buddies and someone who, even to this day, I show her basically almost all my sketches before I move anything on forward, and she sees a lot of them and I'm like what is this crazy? Is this ridiculous? What do you think of the pose Blah, blah, blah, blah, but them? And I'm like what is this crazy, is this ridiculous? What do you think of the pose blah, blah, blah, but uh? So to this day, she's still someone that um is a huge impact on my art and everything like that. Uh, and so she's the one that told me. She said you need to be doing this, you need to, you need to do that because you care about it, and, um and it's not that she didn't care uh, because she has dedicated herself to continually drawing, uh, diverse body types, shapes and colors and like that, and she has gone on to do that. But in that moment, she was just like no, this needs to be your thing.
Lolly:Yeah, because I mean, kyle, you really had you seen many like plus-size pin-up drawings around, because you would have been drawn to that.
Kyle Rock:Right, and you know, I definitely had a couple artists that I did really enjoy and that were doing similar things, um, but, uh, they were fewer and far between um. A lot of them also had other kind of um what am I trying to say? Other other fandoms or or passions. You know, like some of them were furries, they were, you know, yeah, um and and everything like that, but there wasn't many, uh, that I felt were we're looking, we're drawing what I wanted to draw right, you know what I mean.
Kyle Rock:Um, in a way that I thought I could um, and then the other I was. I was still a little hesitant and part of it was because I didn't want to be that creepy guy drawing pen up and off putting, and my friend Caitlin you know she, she's the one that was doing that she also told me.
Kyle Rock:She said, though, because you care about that, that's another thing you care about is not being that right. You don't want them to be pervy, you don't want them to be pervy, you don't want them to be porny. Um, that will come through in your art as well. So, um, and, and you know, again, I sent her everything because I just never wanted to be that way. Also, my wife she's another person that I, as one of my first early screenings of, like how is this looking?
Kyle Rock:I don't want this to be, uh, anything like that so between the two of them, kyle about that line.
Josh Weed:What is the line between respectful representation and what you were calling uh pervy slash?
Lolly:horny I mean, we're not porn shaming here at all, but no, no, what's that?
Josh Weed:line that you what? What's the distinction? I don't know. Hard to say, hard to.
Kyle Rock:It's so, so hard to say Do you feel it in your heart?
Lolly:You look at it and it tells us, kind of.
Kyle Rock:I didn't know if we were going to get to that or the timeline of how we're going to chat about this Sure.
Lolly:Yeah, let's just dig in.
Kyle Rock:Can I define it or point it out? Picture, can I? Can I? Can I define it or point it out? I really can't.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, um, and, and it's a constantly kind of a moving weaving line, uh, and it there's so few times that it comes in contact, uh, or where the context of what I'm drawing doesn't become a part of it, right, right, for example, like for a long time I thought if I was just drawing, if I never drew a woman naked, nude, right, I figured that was a good thing, that was going to be, that might be the line that you would, that might be a line exactly.
Kyle Rock:And then I got a woman, a commission from a woman in Australia who commissioned me, and we were talking about what she wanted and she was very clear, very to the point, and she said I want this and I want this and I want this and I would like to be topless in it. And at the time I hadn't done that at all yet actually, yeah, and I was, and I told her as such and I was like, well, I've been trying to keep it, you know, like I want. I always wanted to be fun and flirty and sexy a little bit, but I wanted to be approachable to anyone who might be first exploring this kind of and up vibes and in their selves and in art. So I told her that and she said I get it and I, you know, like if you don't do it, that's totally fine, you were drawing her okay, yes, so you were like these would be the first boobs that I've ever drawn so correct yeah, uh.
Kyle Rock:And so, um, as we were talking about it, she said I totally expect you respect that boundary. If you don't do it, that's fine, um. But then she said something that really it really kind of gutted me, because she told me that, especially where she's at, she said that the thing is that art is still less censored than a woman's body right now.
Josh Weed:Right.
Kyle Rock:And all of a sudden, my viewpoint shifted on the whole thing. You know, this was her buying something that she wanted to see herself beautiful in and that included being topless, and that was a statement of control and power over herself over something kind of sexy right, like this wasn't about the sexiness of it or anything like that.
Josh Weed:This was how she viewed herself and how she viewed the control over that, and it shifted my mind completely in that moment and I was like, oh no, yeah, I've got to draw this right, just like she asked, like I have to yeah, I'm thinking about the concept of like the male gaze, right, and the male gaze in the ways that it is like controlled within I don't within like religious community or just within society as a whole, where it's like ban this because it's scintillating versus like kind of underground, like very male gaze, focused, objectifying, pornographic stuff.
Josh Weed:You know there's this like dyad or contrast. You know there's this like dyad or contrast, and this is the perfect counterpoint to that, where it's literally her saying I want to see me, I, a woman, want to see me represented through your, your artistic skill. And yes, you are a male, right, you know, cis, straight male. But you know, like that is a very powerful that, that is a very powerful realization, where you're kind of like wait, I was gonna maybe not do this because of other things that had to do with me, and now I'm saying this is about her and what she wants and I am gonna, I'm going to uh take that cue.
Kyle Rock:I think that's really exactly, yeah, no, so I mean I, the minute she said that it was a reframing and I got to her right back I said wow, I thank you for sharing you know, like for helping me see this you know what I mean, helping me see this, and so, uh, so I, immediately I I said yep, I'll do it, no problem, you're right, I'm with you for this.
Kyle Rock:So the one I shared on my Instagram page was still she. She agreed that that was fine If I shared when that was covered on my Instagram page, but the one that I sent her and then I did for her was was topless, so it was. So. That began out of context. I thought, you know, topless was part of the line, right, yeah, and then, all of a sudden, given this context, uh, it changed everything, right? And I said oh yeah, no, this is absolutely something I will do for you.
Josh Weed:I mean it toplessness is one of those topics completely that it's like you speak to women about. I mean, I'm not a woman so I'd be interested in your thoughts, lol, but you think speak to women about toplessness and there are opinions about it, of the unfairness and the fact that it shouldn't be a problem. The fact that it's so societally kind of like viewed as problematic is all part and parcel of the patriarchal view of women's bodies and sexuality and sexual desire and so like. It's very interesting. I don't know. This is a cool.
Lolly:This is a cool kind of demonstration of why empowerment can involve this kind of thing there's so much here, right, and it's like trying to decide, like about feminism versus like feeling, claiming your own sexiness yeah, and can you? Be, a feminist and also want to be sexy and wear sexy clothes and have your drawing done topless. And my answer is yes, definitely. Like, for sure, like it's about you, like you know as a woman, like how do you want to express yourself?
Josh Weed:Right.
Lolly:And that should be okay. Self-empowerment, whatever that is, should be okay. Yes, and so if I want to walk down the street in some skimpy outfit like I get to do that Exactly. And then it's up to the people around me to watch themselves.
Josh Weed:Whatever way they need to Like to be respectful of boundaries. Their responses to you is not about you. Your Exactly.
Lolly:And so, like I love that, like it's very interesting. She's like I want you to draw me topless and at that point you, as the artist, had the control.
Josh Weed:Right, that's true.
Kyle Rock:And you were like no, I'm going to give the control to the person requesting this and the person whom actually drawing yeah, and you know, that's been an interesting challenge throughout the entire process of these commissions right, I mean um vast majority of people, these women, uh I've when I say people, uh you know, um, this has been one of the things that has helped me realize I've been doing things the right way, or at least taking the right path.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, is that a vast majority of my followers are women. Yeah, and a vast majority of the commissions I've done are women. That is very cool, yeah, and like I'm thinking like this means I'm hopefully on the right track. You know, I'm finding this nice line between, um, that makes people feel sexy about themselves and sexy about and powerful about themselves. But finding these, this line and this, being able to chat about this openly has been one of the challenges of figuring all this out, because, again, this I'm a stranger to them, they're a stranger to me and they write to me and they say you know, I want one of these done, and it's always one of those things where I've got to be like okay, I need pictures of you. Um, and I'm trying to request this in the least creepy way possible hopefully um, but send me nudes for sure, and and it and of course that's part of the discussion too is like what tone are they looking?
Kyle Rock:for I've done that, some that are just looking for like fun, kind of you know um more like 1950s ads which were, you know, like they're kind of pinup posy but poses, but they were usually dresses and you know, maybe showing a little garter or something like that. You know like a lot of those. So I've done some of those. I wear all the all the end of the scale where someone's like I want like latex, leather you know like collars. Can I be holding a paddle?
Kyle Rock:like you know what I mean, like the whole, the whole genre, the whole spectrum, I should say, is there um, and discovering that and chatting with a woman about that openly has been the whole spectrum of empowerment yeah, those are all manifestations yeah, that's cool so k?
Lolly:have you done any art for maybe trans women?
Josh Weed:I was wondering the same thing Femme presenting folks.
Kyle Rock:I have not yet.
Lolly:But I'm assuming that's just because the opportunity hasn't presented itself yet.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, not that you would be like no, correct, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Josh Weed:No, no one has, at least I guess that I know of Right, exactly, yeah, no, I've, I've, no one has, at least I guess that I know.
Kyle Rock:Right, exactly, that's true, but no one has openly told me that they are. If I'm resenting or not, trans women told me anything like that.
Lolly:I just, I just wanted to make sure we were including that population in this, you know yeah.
Kyle Rock:And if someone were to ask me, of course I would no, that'd be really I'm super excited about. I really like doing commissions. I've got other art friends who it's one of their things that they do to help sustain their business and help sustain their model, but they don't actually really enjoy doing commissions. But I frequently really really have a good time rating these with people and getting what they're looking for and absolutely uh, and going through the whole process, so I really enjoy it and so no, I have not yet, but would absolutely.
Lolly:For sure that's cool well, I was wondering, like I was talking with kyle a couple weeks ago and you were sharing a story with me that I was like this story absolutely needs to be shared, and so I was wondering if you would mind telling it to us.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Um, in the last year I'm assuming you're talking about the one that from uh, the woman who sent me a message on Instagram.
Kyle Rock:Yes, Okay, um. So, uh, last year, in 2021, um, I decided to uh start trying to sell my art at comic cons, um, as well as just kind of plus size pinups, um, I do like nerdy versions, uh as well. Uh, some of the characters already are plus size and some of them I've just created as such in in the art, um, but thought that comic cons would be a fun place to get, you know, more exposure, but also, uh, show people what I can do and everything like that. So I started selling at comic cons and, um, uh, this last year, um at uh it was in september we did fan x, which was is a really big show in in salt lake city, and one of the pieces that I've done is a Harley Quinn and I've, you know, put weight on her and the whole nine yards.
Lolly:So Harley Quinn in a plus size, plus sized Harley.
Josh Weed:Quinn Plus size manifestation.
Kyle Rock:Yes, oh, my gosh, sorry my cat. Anyways, so. Cat wants to be part as well, we love a pet. I know, I know so she, so I drew this, I drew this and it's been part of my inventory for a couple of conventions now there and uh, to be completely honest, this was the second day of the convention and the first day had gone kind of slow and at that point in time we'd had a slow second day, yeah and um which is sad to me that this is like it just is.
Lolly:That's a that's a bummer to hear, but and I think it depends on the con, though, right, I'm sure there's a great variation in terms of populations and all of that.
Kyle Rock:Absolutely, absolutely, and different even cultural makeups of the surrounding area.
Josh Weed:Oh yeah, totally, totally.
Kyle Rock:And it all plays into the factor.
Lolly:So Salt Lake was not as body positive. Wait what?
Josh Weed:Utah. You don't say I am shocked, I know the place with like plastic surgeon, like billboards along the side of the freeway. Billboards everywhere. Number one in the nation for plastic surgery. Yeah, it was crazy.
Kyle Rock:But again. So it had been kind of slow and I'm really to be completely frank, I feel like I'm new at art and I'm definitely new at Comic-Con, Sure, and that second day I was having a rough time of it. Yeah, it's hard not to feel a little for me at least other artists might feel differently, but it's definitely. It was challenging for me to not feel a personal level of rejection, uh, at the fact that things have been so slow it's a bump that feels like a bump.
Josh Weed:I can.
Kyle Rock:I can totally see that that makes sense, yeah uh, and I I'm doing my best not to let it happen, because it's just it's I, I have no control over it. And right, and there's so many factors, um, in in a show you know, like um. I have another friend who is just make, just goes to town on comic cons, absolutely sells gangbusters and and even she is just like. It's all traffic patterns and a traffic pattern, a convention. You can't predict and you can't control wildly variable, and so yes you could.
Kyle Rock:You could be in the same place two years in a row and one year it'll be great, just because of the way the natural flow of people they're stopping there and then you might be in the same place the next year and the natural flow of people has changed due to whatever the con setup is the convention setup and they might walk right by you and you just don't know. So there's so many factors that I really should. I'm practicing on not taking it so personally and I think there's a lot of power in you just showing up and being there.
Josh Weed:Right and allowing the thing to happen. It takes a lot of guts to do that, so that's very cool?
Kyle Rock:Yeah, it really does, but anyway. So it had been kind of a slow day and I saw this older teenage girl coming down the convention row. I saw this older teenage girl coming down the convention row and in her hand was a. I could see already a couple booths down I could see almost exclusively Harley Quinn art and she was also a bigger woman, as you know. I recently found out, she's 18. I asked her, talked to her a little bit and so she was a bigger teenage girl Right, and I started coming down and I just thought, with her handful of Harley Quinn art, yeah, I opened my portfolio directly to my Harley Quinn.
Lolly:Good move. That's good sales tech right there, you know like.
Josh Weed:I'm going to play the game Absolutely, totally.
Kyle Rock:So I, as she gets up to it, I say I've got a Harley right here, and she just kind of there was like a momentarily, a momentary pause as she kind of absorbed it and took it in, I guess. And then without much more to do or whatever. She just said, yeah, I need that Put and I said, okay, all right, I love that.
Kyle Rock:I need you know I need this. Great, yeah, the good thing I want to hear. And she picked out another piece. She picked up two pieces and, uh, didn't really say much more to me then and bought the pieces and continued on. So, um, I wasn't thinking too much more about it. And then in the middle of the third day of the convention we had a little bit of a break and by the third day actually things had picked up.
Josh Weed:Oh nice.
Kyle Rock:I was feeling good on the third day, or at least acceptable content about the third day, and then I got this message in the middle of the con, and it was a request from someone I didn't know, so I opened it up.
Lolly:And you did get permission from this person to share this. I just wanted to put that out there.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, I talked to her. Her name is Danny and I asked her if I could share this, both on my social media and even before this podcast we were talking about it. She said I could feel free to share the message, and so I got this message and to like, I'll just read it first, I guess, and we can talk about it afterwards, because it was just amazing. So she says, hey, my name is Danny and we met at FanX Today. I bought Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy.
Kyle Rock:I just want to let you know that your work is so important to me. Out of everything I saw at the convention all three days, nothing hit me the way your art did. Harley Quinn is an important character to me because she was a huge part of my self-discovery path, finding out I was attracted to girls and coming out as bisexual to my family, and also because I have major mental health problems, much like her, but I've never seen her any other way other than skinny. Seeing her on my body shape today was a feeling I can't even begin to explain. Thank you so much for being there at FanX today and for all your hard work. It means the world to me.
Josh Weed:Wow.
Kyle Rock:And to get that in the middle of Connell was a big deal, especially one I've been feeling really challenged with. So I responded. I want to share one more comment she made, because I said I respond. I said I'm honored. Thank you so much for sharing with me. This means the world to me and I'm so happy to know that it has reached you this way. And she said of course these pieces are going up on my wall so I can see them to remind me that I don't have to be skinny to be beautiful.
Lolly:Oh, this is awesome.
Josh Weed:That's so beautiful.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, and to say that it was just this, and you know, like, I mean she was really happy that I was there for her, but I mean that meant the world to me in that moment to know that I was doing something worthwhile. You know, like, um, the sales might not have been the best or whatever, um, but yeah there was one sale that mattered a lot. It was one sale that mattered a lot, yeah uh, and, and that changes with time too.
Kyle Rock:Right like yeah yeah, yeah, and it changes with time and with show and with whole nine yards um, a little bit after that one we were in tacoma actually, uh, and we did grit city comic show and, um, it was a small one day con and this the sales had been. It was a great day actually. We had a lot of sales that day. But throughout all those sales, um one woman I remember very specifically, uh, just stopped and came up and and just said she said, um, you see me and uh, and I said that's what we that's what we try to do here at the booth.
Kyle Rock:You know we're trying to be out there. And she said I don't always feel like I'm seen here, but I see myself up on these booths and this art and I feel seen because this booth exists.
Kyle Rock:I love it. So, yeah, it's really been special to have these responses, um, and it's definitely something that helps me when it does feel like, um, I'm not selling as well or I'm not, uh, even engaging. Sometimes it's like, if I can, if I chat my way through a convention, um, that can feel really successful. You know what I mean. If people are engaging and we're talking about things and we're having a good time, but there are some times where it's just dead space, yeah.
Josh Weed:You could literally not hear anything better. As an artist, I don't think than you see me, Than to have a person say like this thing you did helps me, see me. You are seeing me and representing me, and I don't feel represented in other spaces Like that's power. That is power is my word of the day, apparently, but that's very powerful.
Kyle Rock:Really really neat, it really really was, and it's things like that that I have to remember and think you know, and and keep going when it feels kind of like a drag sometimes to haul everything over. For sure, yeah, yeah, I'm curious.
Lolly:Sorry I was well, I was actually gonna ask, like I could see you being very moved, and I'm curious what your thoughts are about those stories well, okay, so this is one of the things, like as a mental health provider, that I am extremely passionate about is, um, like eating disorders and body dysmorphia and um, body image and and so, as I've done, you know, had supervisors around this issue and and done continuing education and seeing more clients around it, like it's something that is, uh, one of my passions um, having felt more like a bigger girl growing up and like that, you know, my weight kind of fluctuated and I could see that the way I was treated would be different depending on how much I weighed, and like this feeling of, well, no, no guys are really going to like me because I'm fat, you know.
Lolly:And so to me, like you know, as I've done so much reading and talking with people, to realize that there are many, many groups out there that are discriminated against and there's many groups where they do not get representation in media, and that's most people except for straight, white, heterosexual, like cis people, so, like other than that, like there's not as much representation in art and media, and that includes people in bigger bodies.
Lolly:For sure Like you just don't see it as much like, especially like in, like a sexier role, right, you don't see it. People in larger bodies are going to be one of the last populations that are going to actually get stood up for and have someone be like discrimination is not OK and we need more representation because in everyone's mind, it's their fault that they're fat. Right. So like it's like well, if someone's black, they can't help that because they're born black, you know. But if you're fat, well you know.
Josh Weed:Never mind that.
Lolly:There are so many studies, so much evidence that can allow people to lose weight and keep that weight off for like five years consistently, for like more than like 9% of the population, and I'll look that statistic up and put it in the show notes because I think it's really important for people to realize this.
Lolly:It's like there is this diet cycle that people get on and then it ruins up their metabolism and it screws up with their relationship with food Metabolism and screws up with their relationship with food, and so most people I see you know a lot of my clients in larger bodies like they eat way less than most other people because they're constantly trying to lose weight and so to just assume that someone is fat because they're like lazy, or because they don't try Low willpower, yes, that is just grossly misunderstood, and so I think we should see more people in media and we should be seeing people in larger bodies in sexy roles, like I love the. What show is that with Addie Bryant? Oh. Shrill Shrill.
Lolly:Yes show is that with Addie Bryant? Um, oh, shrill. Yes, like I that I loved seeing her in that role because, like she is, it addresses like fat phobia and stuff, but um.
Kyle Rock:I know, um, there's a really famous slam poet and I I'm gonna really feel really bad that I don't remember her name right now, um, but she was active in theater for a long time as well, and I remember watching one of her poems where she she claimed that, um, you know, she was always relegated to the funny fat friend in any production she was in. Uh, and as part of her poem I remember very specifically she mentioned that, uh, audiences will believe a boy can fly before they believe a fat woman can find love.
Kyle Rock:Oh and, and I was just like, oh gosh, because you know you think about things like peter pan, you know people, talk all those kind of things, and then when it comes to like, being like well, why don't we cast a fat girl as juliet? Or why don't we cast a fat girl as maria, and you know, whatever, whatever Like, and we all you know, not we all, but you know producers and people sit back and say, well, no one will buy a ticket, isn't that so the thing?
Josh Weed:It's controlled and usually by, often by you know, cis straight white men who have those positions of power, and they're the ones casting for roles and movies and other things, and they're the ones that are like audience was would never. And yet there's so many shows, so many things that break through, largely because of the internet, where it's like they're making bank and it's like a complete, like ad bryant's a great example, right like.
Josh Weed:Uh, yeah, this is not actually accurate and this is true in terms of like all intersections, right Like every every group like these people in power are like no, we could never to like people of color or BIPOC people, and that's like. How many times does there have to be a runaway show that, just like blows, you know, quote, unquote expectations out of the water to demonstrate that we want to fucking see people that are like us?
Lolly:I want to see gay folks yes.
Josh Weed:Bigger people want to see bigger folks. You know, like, that's who we are. There will be an audience because there are. There is diversity. It exists.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, like it's happening every day. Like fat people fall in love Fat people love each other Weirdly.
Josh Weed:Fat people love skinny people. I'm sorry, what yeah?
Kyle Rock:Like every fat person in the world, is not sitting there pining away for someone Right and that's you know, and we do. That's such a media trope and cliche, you know to be like you're lonely and you're by yourself because you're fat.
Lolly:I've been looking for a good point for us to take our little sponsored break, but it's going to be too interesting. We're not going to have a good breaking point in any spot so we're just going to have to take it where.
Lolly:I slide it in there. Do it, we'll be back soon. Yay, if you are enjoying Lolly's Candy Store of Emotions, maybe consider going to my Patreon page and checking that out. There will be some things there that you might find interesting, and I really appreciate your support from just listening, and if you want to donate, that's always appreciated as well. Thanks, okay, welcome back. We're excited to have kyle rock here with us, who is a great artist. I really love seeing all of the things that you do and I keep meaning to be like I should have kyle.
Lolly:I could commission, I'll cut I should commission kyle, well, didn't expect that to be such a tongue twister and his stuff is starting to get more and more like seen and he's doing all kinds of cons and stuff, which is fun to see that like happening. It's very yeah and I think, like there's several, you know things here that we're, that we're talking about, like you know, representation in media, but also like fat phobia and how problematic that is.
Josh Weed:Oh, I wanted to submit. I wanted to based on what we were talking about before the break. But have you guys seen drew afwalo her t?
Lolly:Oh, I was thinking about her, she's so good and like.
Josh Weed:The thing I'm thinking about is she will take down these guys that are like. You know there are like major brands like Calvin Klein, yeah, just like who are hiring very beautiful plus size models, who are on billboards just like repping, just like being their gorgeous selves, like, I think, the one that in question. It's this. She's a black model who is bigger, and you know, there's this guy who's like why are we like glorifying obesity? And like Drew is just like so good at just being like why the fuck do you care?
Lolly:Right. Like he was so offended, like why are you paying attention to, like it was like this surfer, like white surfer, straight guy Totally.
Josh Weed:I'm so offended, I'm so offended and she's like you're not worried about glorifying obesity, you're not worried about people's health. This is not about what you know.
Lolly:It's just cutting to the core. I love too when she's like uh, if this is like the one thing that you have to get on social media about in rage to talk about like people are dying, like there are wars, and you're worried about this woman on a billboard who, by the way, is on a billboard what are you?
Josh Weed:doing like. Who even are you?
Kyle Rock:Yeah, it reminds me a couple of years ago of the, the oh my gosh, the Nike store. I don't even know if you saw this, but there was a Nike store that included a you know, a fat mannequin and modeling their, their larger sizes, and, and, and the vitriol that was poured onto this right is is this unimpossible? Like, lose, lose now right because, it's like, yes, you're fat, it's your fault, do something about it. And then someone introduces a workout line and it's like what well, you want them like, want them like.
Josh Weed:Yes. How exactly are these Go put on?
Lolly:your sweats like you should. If you're fat, right, get your muumuu and get to the gym to be judged all day by everyone there Like fuck that Right.
Kyle Rock:Or you know like do it in your house until you're acceptable to the world.
Lolly:Like what's so backwards?
Kyle Rock:It is so true and so it was such a lose-lose for them where it was just like I can't even do what you want me to do, right? Yes, and it's just this idea that the fat body is just. They can't comprehend happiness in it or allow happiness in it, for whatever reason.
Lolly:Yeah Well, I remember seeing like a picture of someone doing yoga. It was a woman in a larger body and she had like a crop top on and some like yoga pants, and like even me as a provider and person like who has been in a larger body, I was like what? Like I was like totally taken aback by the picture and I was like, oh well, good for you, Like I was glad to see it. But at first I was like it's rare.
Josh Weed:It's rare to see that representation and it's so funny because it's like it's just so. The two things that drew talks about that, I think are so salient that I have like adopted into my brain. Are, she repeatedly says, because of course, all of the men that talk to her are like calling her fat, even though she's like fucking gorgeous, just like like stunning. But and she's like fat is not an insult right it's not an insult.
Lolly:It is a neutral descriptive term and I'm like that's so true it is, but it seems to be not an insult for men like that's one of the worst things where they can call a woman right, like you're fat, as if that's like gonna cut and she's just like that doesn't cut descriptions.
Josh Weed:Don't cut me deep, like, okay, you have eyes.
Kyle Rock:Right, yeah, and I, so many of them were also. Just like you're just telling me something.
Josh Weed:I know, right, right, you know what I mean.
Kyle Rock:What I'm fat.
Josh Weed:And like it's just neutral. It just is, and so that's one of them, and then the other. Oh, she just talks a lot about body neutrality which I think is such an innovative like ideology as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with body positivity per se, right. But I think that it ends up being, it can get into some problematic spaces. If we're unable to, in this capitalist hellscape we live in, get into this place where I love, my. It's like no body neutrality. Like bodies are just these vessels that we are using and they get to just be.
Lolly:Yes, and this is something I am telling clients all the time where I'm like listen, your body is here as an instrument for you to live your life. Yes, it is not a decoration for other people to look at and comment on. Like why does anybody else care what your body looks like? Totally. Like why is this? Even a thing Like we're all commenting, like it's a Monet or like we're it's your body, is for you to live your life, and if you feel good in your body, that's all that matters.
Josh Weed:That's what matters, and in terms of sexual attraction, where this kinds of sexual and romantic attraction, where this kind of ends up going kind of what you were saying, steve, like plenty of fat people are finding love and there is attraction for all types of bodies and shapes. There are people that will be your match, no matter what your bodily presentation is. Right it exists and this is why this conversation is interesting because you are clearly an appreciator of bigger bodies, and I think that that's awesome. What were you going to say?
Lolly:I was actually going to ask Kyle about that. We've known Kyle for a long time. Like I knew Kyle back in high school and I remember having a talk with you about, like back when you were in high school and you even back then, like you know, you know what you're attracted to and, right, how that felt for you to be. Like well, I, I, I like the girls that are not super skinny, like how was that for you?
Kyle Rock:um, you know, it's fascinating because, uh, of just how culture changes. I'm just going to throw that out there to preface this in the beginning, because when I was learning that about myself and everything like that, it was the mid to late 90s and everything like that, and heroin chic was the thing heroin chic.
Josh Weed:You know what I mean and I could not it.
Kyle Rock:It was almost alien or foreign, like I it's it's so hard for me to describe, but like when my friends who were talking about models they liked and and who they were found attractive and and the current stars, at the time I found nothing I could really latch on to as like an overlap, because you know, the Thin the Waif, it was so popular then that and it is very, very far away from what I find attractive and so it was very challenging and it was definitely something that I didn't really talk about. I guess you know what I mean it was. It was one of those things where people there wasn't a lot of room to talk about it.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, right, and you know people would name off a couple women and be like oh my god, she's so hot, she's not you know, and be like yes, cool that is smoke who I like too as a gay kid.
Kyle Rock:Growing up in the same era, I was doing a lot of the same thing, right you know what I mean very attractive person you like their comrade like exactly, and internally I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, my mom got a Lane Bryant catalog you're like sneaking that into the bed you know that's what I was really thinking yeah and um, and so it was.
Kyle Rock:It was very hard and I told you know, I told you, lolly, I told a couple other friends, um and it's funny though, because there was even still like a level of sometimes disbelief, yeah, as people discovered it. You know, I knew a person and she was floored Like if there was kind of a lull in conversation. She would sometimes just say, like so you're really not into like like me, like that's not something like she was skinnier presenting.
Josh Weed:Oh, very, yeah, yeah, very very small, petite woman and uh, and and it was weird apparently she couldn't get it, it was I'm used to males responding a certain way to this and you, yeah, don't, and you're like no yeah uh, and so that was, you know, always really big, uh, or it was always so straight up disbelief, wow, um.
Kyle Rock:Or or do you know, like uh, especially earlier on, when, if it was sometimes occasionally like, really like needled out of me about who you know what movie stars, whatever and everything like that, and they just wouldn't let it drop and like, and this would come out like once or twice, like I mean, I was even told I was probably gay, like because I didn't like the women that they like you know, and and so it was just like and I was like no, I'm that, that's not the point here like I just I don't find the same woman you're attracted to.
Josh Weed:I love that you had more people that were like you're probably gay than I did and I was gay. Well, yeah, you're like. I'm like I don't know what's going on. People are like, well, just wait, everything's fine. You're like. I like bigger girls. They're like um um, are you sure?
Lolly:you don't like men. Like how in the world did that? Yeah, that that is like so insulting. Like, when you step back and look at this, I'm just like and having been in high school with you, kyle, I like know what you're just talking about like the 90s were not a time for girls that had curves.
Josh Weed:It was.
Lolly:You know, you were kind of shamed for that and like, as I reflect back on my own experience, like I remember being in seventh grade and this, you know, junior high, I saw a kid who had been in elementary school with me and he probably hadn't seen me over the summer or something, and I had hit puberty at this point and so I was no longer just this stick, you know tiny thing.
Lolly:So I'm 5'1", I'm not tall, and at that time weighed a hundred and ten pounds, um, and he looked at me and was like whoa, hey, chubby. And that stuck with me. I mean, still right, I still think about that and I remember being like oh, and now thinking back like 110 pounds, like come on.
Josh Weed:Like you, had basically barely just started. Human development.
Lolly:Exactly, and so I've reframed this in my mind now to be more like a. He didn't have the languaging to like I came up. Actually, that's true, though, and he saw like like you know, suddenly I have boobs, I've got hips, and he sees that so like I'm imagining in his mind, like dream weaver and he's like whoa.
Josh Weed:That's exactly right. Lolly looks different, but he doesn't have words the language so the thing he says is chubby chubby and also yeah, just because of the repressive space this is is Utah so like? He was likely having. I mean, I would assume he's having a sexualized response.
Lolly:Well, yeah, because he was sitting there talking with the girl that he had a crush on, yeah, who was bigger than me.
Josh Weed:So he is, yeah, so he doesn't know how to categorize this thing that's happening in him and, of course, because this is like he's not supposed to have those feelings yeah, I mean even you know, like sexuality within that space, within highly religious spaces, is just like all bad.
Lolly:So then it comes out as vitriol or anger towards you, yes, which was not cool, and I remember, kyle, you saying that you liked bigger girls and I was like what? No way. Like, so you would like find the body that I'm in like, not repulsive, like, and almost like not believing it.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, like not believing it. Yeah, it's. It's funny that you brought all that up, because you know, as um, within my I guess you could say community, I know a couple other um artists who draw fat bodies and everything like that, but also I follow, and a lot follow me are other like fat models and and everything like that and and fat influencers. You know, um, and it's one of those fascinating things where you know those, those questions, those secrets are all really popular on like instagram stories right now. Right and um, and I've one of the women, uh, she's, she's very funny, she's very, um, very powerful, kind of uh, snarky, sarcastic, very witty woman. Um, someone shared a secret that was like, uh, I have a secret thing for fat girls and and and they kind of presented it as this kind of like compliment and she was just like that's not cool, like this secret is not nice, like this is one of those like I want to date you, but I don't want anyone to know that we're dating. Precisely.
Kyle Rock:Like we can't go anywhere in public. Exactly. I can't take you to be with my friends, and it's like that's not a nice secret, right? That's not something that's a compliment, right, like?
Lolly:Yes.
Kyle Rock:And even nowadays and I remember I framed it and said culture changes a lot because even now, where thick yeah, we've had the Kardashian revolution and thickness is way more accepted. There's still this limit, though. Oh totally Like there's this cap where it's like oh, this is acceptable, thick, and now you've gone too far, you know, now you're too much Still very curvy and fat ass, but like not this kind of thing, waste needs to be this and you know it's like it's still
Kyle Rock:very governed and for yes there's so many rules about it Within male culture.
Josh Weed:This is a. This is toxic, straight male masculinity Like and it and there is a lot of, there is a lot of like you were experiencing a lot of controlling behavior around, like a lot of bullying or abuse or disbelief because you it was not safe for you to be real with your male friends about what was enjoyable, because everybody is subconsciously subscribing to this capitalistic kind of gross patriarchal notion. Yeah, and that work needs to be done within that group, within this group that you are a part of, steve, and you being vocal about this allows other people to be vocal. But it is just funny. It's just funny how you know like this, like this is not uncommon kind of what you're talking about, where, like I know, I've heard bigger women talking about people who would like in a dating situation, like they'd have sex with them and they'd want to be with them and really enjoy it, but then not feel comfortable like presenting them this is not society.
Josh Weed:Yeah, this is not like you're saying this is not a compliment, that's sickness yeah that's actually gross yeah, it's super backhanded, absolutely.
Kyle Rock:You know what I mean, like and and to the point, and and again in in this woman's response, um, acknowledging it and letting it. Let it be known like not even that it's backhanded anymore, but it's just now. It's just a straight up insult. It's insulting just offensive yeah, um, and it's just like if you can't love me, yeah, and if you like this, great that's fine, but if you can't publicly say I love this person, then that's something that's on you.
Josh Weed:You're afraid of you're afraid of this. You have some work to do. See a damn therapist Right and they're the ones with the work to do. Absolutely. It's not like yeah, exactly, yeah, absolutely.
Lolly:Yeah, that you are so insecure that you feel like you have, like the girl that you're seen in public with has to fit this idealized checklist.
Josh Weed:Even I, as a gay man, experienced that. I experienced that, that I could feel that judgment, and sometimes I even in our marriage as you know, like that came out in kind of gross ways yeah, there's some trauma probably don't have time to go into. We'll go into that story at another point.
Lolly:I was gonna say there's so much here that we could definitely talk about like in in other, uh, future episodes. But it's, I think, really good, kyle Kyle, to have your perspective, and I'm just wondering what would you say to someone who's like you're, fetishist. You have a fetish for fat girls.
Josh Weed:I was going to ask him the same question. Yeah, fetishization thoughts.
Kyle Rock:That's something I've never wanted to ascribe to yeah Right, because there is just such a negative connotation, and and and true, but um, and not without um good cause I should say there's. There's all sorts of sub communities, I guess you could say in fat appreciation and stuff like that and fat admiration, where there are feeders and feedies and stuff like that, and the line between that, though, is so personal to each individual that it's it's very, very challenging right.
Josh Weed:Can you describe those terms? Did you say feeders and feedies correct?
Kyle Rock:yeah, so people that, uh, their relationship is built on either, you know, feeding the other person to explicitly get them to gain weight, like that's the whole point. Yeah, and so it's. And so there are multiple layers of this, like I said, within this community, I guess you could say, because that is seen as really offensive to some, sure, and some, I mean when it's like and then they're approached though as if they just naturally will want to participate in this Because they are fat, right, right, yes.
Josh Weed:And now all of a sudden you've approached and you've assumed this and so, like you, can see the problematic nature in it In that it's maybe going the opposite direction, like A partner who's like I need to get you to the gym and I need to do these things to make you thinner, right, right. Like that's just the maybe the opposite end, where it's like I'm, what you are isn't OK and I'm not OK with what you are, how you present. Now I'm needing to make it into something else.
Kyle Rock:Right and again, if two people are enjoying that, and that's what they're sure that's fine, enjoying that and that's what they're sure that's fine.
Kyle Rock:But like there's this, there's a common assumption that people just assume oh, you like this shape, you're like I am, that must mean you also like this. Yes, and it's just another. It's just another um boundary that especially, you know, uh, men will like to just blast through, and I've got friends who are just like these. Men will just show up and be like, oh my gosh, how much, what's your goal weight? How much are you trying to weigh? And they're like I'm not doing that, like I'm not, like I don't participate in that, I'm happy, like that's fine, if you do right, hopefully you find someone that will reciprocate this with you, but that's not me and I don't want to do this. And they're shocked. You know what I mean. And it's just another one of those layers that's multiple shocker, it just comes up everywhere.
Josh Weed:What if women were just like okay to be what they are? Like what I mean? Just I'm sitting with this really weird possibility where people could just like show up as they fucking are and be okay. Is that is this outlandish, what's happening?
Lolly:And also that it's okay for people to find other people sexually attractive and, like I don't want to kink, shame anybody.
Josh Weed:I don't even want to like no kink, shame, no yucking anyone's young.
Lolly:Yeah, I'm not going to be like you're fetishist.
Kyle Rock:Right.
Lolly:Like what you have a fetish for tall blondes, right? It's just like if it's something outside of the norm, suddenly it's a fetish, right. You know, and it's like what Like, do no? The norm. Suddenly it's a fetish, you know, and it's like what like, do no.
Josh Weed:I feel like is preferring blonde people a fetish right like what is fetishization and so like that's what I've always tried, like there's a hard line there and it's a bit you know.
Kyle Rock:Back to the porn talk almost like, but like you know it, kind of when you're feeling it, when you're experiencing it, where it's like you're taking this too far, like you are seeing like their shape or their size has become, you've eliminated the human aspect of this. Right, that's all all the person is seeing is this and that's purely objectification.
Kyle Rock:Yes, yeah, where, where that that becomes, where, like, I guess the line where I guess it would start is where, you know, like, because people have they've asked. You know, like because people have they've asked, you know, like, is this a fetish, is this something like that? It's, you know, talking about presenting and like showing off a girlfriend or being with them in public. I mean that was. You mentioned that I was an actor before and and you know, like, I've auditioned for some pretty big companies and and everyone like that, some pretty big auditions in my life, and I've never been more nervous than bringing my art uh to my first convention, right, like, because all of a sudden now, uh, there's nothing like as an, as an actor, I felt, you know, if I'm not doing well, if you don't like my acting job, well, maybe it's the script, maybe you just don't like the script, or maybe I can say the director had us do this, I didn't agree with it.
Kyle Rock:You know there's some levels of defense. I guess you know personal psychological defense, where if you say I'm a bad actor, I can hide behind. Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, but but everything that I brought to that booth, everything I brought to that table was mine, uh, down to the paper choice that I printed my prints on that's. You know, like that is that's mine, uh, and and and. So the poses, the every single pose I drew, every single brush I used to color things, it's all mine. You know what I mean, and so I was. I was tremendously nervous and then also just worried, you know like perhaps comic cons as a culture were not ready for a booth dedicated to fat women. You know what I mean. And I was incredibly nervous and, um, you know, like to the like, nauseated, like I was like very nauseous, yes, yes, uh, to poise, I never felt that way before in like an audition or or anything like that, or before performance that's interesting.
Josh Weed:The most nervous you had been was showing up in this level of authenticity wow, right, uh and I.
Kyle Rock:I was petrified. Uh, you know, I, I I don't know if part of it was I had been put on the wait list, I hadn't been accepted right away. And then they called me up like a week or two to three weeks before and we're like, hey we, someone dropped out. Do you want in?
Josh Weed:you know. So that's getting in your head. You're like they don't really want me.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, yeah, like maybe there was this mental game of like, did they really want, sure, you know, um, and so I don't know if that played into it. But also just this there there is no wall of defense, you know. So people come up and they say things, um, I, I can't say, you know, I don't have anything to say besides like, well, I liked this, yeah, and that's all I can say. Right, like I, I, I really like, uh, steven universe and the character of rose quartz, so that's why I drew her, you know, and my original pieces that aren't inspired by, like other things, you know, like, um, you know, I like just a couple, like a mermaid, right, and like to be like, I liked this idea of a mermaid with a leopard shark tail. That's what she is, right, so she's got leopard tattoos and everything like that, and I was just like, I liked the idea and that was it.
Kyle Rock:I had nowhere else to go except, and so people ask me things, it's, you know, it's me, it's all out, it's literally on my page, you know, people talk about pouring their heart and blood and sweat and tears onto a page, and that's what this is and I can't, you know, um, and it's, it's incredibly nerve-wracking and thankfully we've had very, very few negative uh reactions um uh, and most of them were people in passing, people uh oh, you have seen oh gosh, oh yeah, or a little child.
Josh Weed:Yeah.
Kyle Rock:Oh no.
Josh Weed:I'm like scared to hear this story.
Kyle Rock:So we'll get to that one maybe in a second, because some of the earlier ones were just little things, like there was a small boy once who, just as he was walking by this was in Boise, idaho, okay, no surprise. Yeah, he walked by and was like mommy, that's really inappropriate, and that was just kind of as they walked by, you know more at the pinup side of things, not necessarily the yeah.
Josh Weed:That would be what he was talking about, Like yeah, and you know, like you know maybe both.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, Some of them are pretty cleavage oh okay, and so it could have um, and so it could have just been.
Kyle Rock:It could have just been that um, but but maybe not, so it wasn't, maybe not, you know what I mean. Like oh and actually, oh, man, there's so much I could talk about um, because I've, you know, minor pinnipi and kind of cleavagey uh. But I've always been curious if I was next to another booth, uh of a of straight sizes or whatever you want to call it, norm smaller sizes that was cleavagey and pinnipy, how would the reaction be to both?
Lolly:of them.
Josh Weed:I've always been curious to see that too, because there are those booths there are a lot of those booths at comic cons that's a really interesting experiment really one of the only fat ones anyways.
Kyle Rock:So that boy did that one once at Rose City recently a group of teenage boys basically yelled like huge mommy milkers and then like ran on, wow. But then. So the one that Lolly was, I think, specifically talking about was I drew a fat Sailor Moon and she's been pretty popular. I drew a fat Sailor Moon and she's been pretty popular. But this little girl who I was guessing was probably between eight to ten, was cosplaying as Sailor Moon and she. They walked up to my booth, her whole family, and she said Sailor Moon's not fat, oh no. And I said this one is, I'm just trying to like bring it up. And she said well, I'm just a Sailor Moon and I'm not fat, and so that makes that picture offensive. She said those words, she did, she did and.
Kyle Rock:I said false Love it To the eight-year-old, to this eight-year-old to this eight-year-old girl yeah, false talk about engaging in meaningful conversation. I just said false, uh, because I was kind of I was flustered yeah kind of that fight or flight conversation thing for sure and um, and it's a fascinating story because there's so much to unpack, because her mother was a bigger woman too, and was just like and her mom was like no, no, no, these are really lovely.
Kyle Rock:And she's trying to talk to me directly. I mean, she's like I think they're lovely, what you're doing is really great and I really like it. And the dad is like honey, you can't talk to girls like you get to, not girls like honey. You can't talk to, like the people that are creating this this way. They're like trying to work hard and the girl is just like like, just like hands on head, like nose up, kind of like I'm not taking this huh, and they literally like dragged her away.
Kyle Rock:Wow, um, because this kind of confrontation thing, um and uh, I think I shared this with lolly when I tell the story with her earlier. But uh, it does have an interesting ending though, because the, uh, the next day this was a multi-day con convention uh, they came back and uh, she came up to me and she said I wanted to apologize for everything I said yesterday. Um, and the, the, the parents told us they, they said well, we talked to her and said, like if you were to draw a green cat and someone told you that that was offensive, that you drew a green cat, because their cat's not green, how would that make you feel? And she said that would be upsetting to me.
Josh Weed:And so what they addressed was kind of the work and care put into it kind of thing artistry yeah, artistry yeah it was.
Kyle Rock:It wasn't necessarily, uh, an admission of understanding that you can't you know, like of why a drawing of a fat woman was offensive, right like a fictional character being represented in different ways.
Josh Weed:Very akin to like the air black aerial discussion, where people are like that's not. Yeah, ariel is not, she's redhead. And I was like, uh, she's fictional, like yeah, she's actually not real, though, right like yeah, so so they had.
Kyle Rock:I don't know that that came up in their conversation with her, um, but she did come to apologize.
Kyle Rock:And that was good and the mom iterated to me again that you know she felt she, she, she's like I really do like what you're doing here and it does make me feel good. So so that was interesting and that was probably the most. But one of the more fascinating things that we see a lot when I keep saying we have me and my wife who works the booths with me, the more fascinating things that we see a lot when I keep saying we, I mean my wife who works the booths with me. Um, what the fascinating thing we see is people that can't admit that they like it.
Lolly:Um, we see a lot of people taking like.
Kyle Rock:We see people taking business cards like on the slide, surreptitiously like, looking like, yeah, like they'll walk but they won't even. They won't even stop stride, they'll just walk by the booth and kind of catch it in the corner of their eye and grab a card off the table and just keep walking.
Josh Weed:If this ain't the exact thing we were talking about wow, yeah, and most of the time men.
Kyle Rock:We had one time where there was a group of boys, teenage boys, who kept looking at it from afar in the booth. They couldn't approach it but kept looking at it from afar at my booth. They couldn't like approach it but they like point at it and I could see them pointing at the different things and it wouldn't have popped up to me if it had only been one time, but they were there like two or three times in the convention where they kept coming back and were pointing at it from afar, from across the aisle, but never approaching it guys, you can like this, you can like this.
Kyle Rock:It's okay, guys, it's okay and I don't know if the part of it's like you know, especially coming from a teenage boy's perspective. I think you know, like if I bought this and brought it home, what would my mom?
Josh Weed:totally, totally. You know what I mean.
Kyle Rock:Like there's, there's multiple reasons to be a little bit of ashamed of expression of sexual interest in anything sure yeah, and and mine are fairly uh, quite a few of mine, I should say, are fairly uh open in it, in what it is right. It's definitely a pin-up and everything like that, and so I even understand as part of being slow sometimes at a comic-con I understand that sometimes it's like where will I put that? What will I do with that? You know what I mean. Like I get it.
Kyle Rock:I get it right, um, you know I don't have many of my own hanging up, um, and so you know it's one of the things that I, um, I, I get, but, but, but, to see the reactions is always interesting, um, and I have a question for you, and go ahead.
Josh Weed:Yeah, sorry, go ahead uh well, were you going to finish a thought there? Sorry, it didn't mean to interrupt.
Kyle Rock:I was kind of done. Okay, um what do your?
Josh Weed:kids think of this ah, wow, it's.
Kyle Rock:Uh, you know, I don't know that we've ever conversed at length about a lot of it.
Kyle Rock:Uh, they like to go to the comic cons. Okay, um, they have fun doing that, um, and and I and I've definitely shown them ones that were, you know, like I thought were would be of particular interest. You know, like, yeah, um, like I, I I personified a pokemon once and and so I showed that to them because I thought they'd think that's kind of fun For sure, and other things, but I don't know that it's ever really come up directly like what they think about it in general. I'm hoping that, between you know, their mom, uh, my wife is, is has a larger body. You know, um, I'm hoping, between that and the positive drawings we have, I'm hoping that that is instilling in them a healthy respect for body positivity or body neutrality and whatever like that, and normalizing it. Seeing these things, uh, is what I'm hoping. You know, absolutely, but I guess we've not had a formal conversation about this.
Kyle Rock:A formal conversation about it? Yeah, which by?
Josh Weed:the way. Just everybody's development is different, and so it's not. How old are your kids again?
Kyle Rock:16 and 13.
Josh Weed:Both males right.
Kyle Rock:Yes, both.
Josh Weed:Males, tell me that's fine. What are their chromosomes? But, yeah, different. You know there's a lot of organicness that can come in these kinds of conversations and different interests, and you know so it's not necessarily that you know, as parents, we're waiting for cues, right, and you know you're we're as parents, we're waiting for cues, and right. It sounds like you've set up a very good environment for when and if those conversations become relevant.
Kyle Rock:Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, I hope that they feel that way Totally, and I mean it's hard to know without again having formal kind of conversations, but they're at least enjoying the aspect of they get to go to college, which has been fun. And I do have I've got like art surprises for them for like christmas and everything like that.
Kyle Rock:I've drawn stuff, some of their favorite characters, just as their favorite characters, you know, not necessarily as pandas plus like, but, but so you know, I think they're enjoying perks of it, sure, and I hope that they see it. As you know, and they've been at the booth, right, you know, when, as I'm working it, and they've seen some of these reactions and they've seen positive ones mostly. I don't think they've ever been there when something bad has happened, but they've seen these positive reactions. They know that people are looking forward to this and and um, yeah, and wanting to see themselves up in that art. Yes, and you know, um, my oldest is on the autism spectrum and actually helped this is 10.
Kyle Rock:I don't know if it's barely related, but, uh, a local theater was doing a play about someone who's on the autism the curious incident of the dog in the night. They were doing the play version of that and and they brought him on as someone that the the actors would talk to, as someone what it's like to be on the autism spectrum, and so I think that seeing this kind of representation even if he's maybe not applied it to other aspects of other people's lives, has already played, been a factor in his own. Yeah, um, and and seeing those things on stage and and also talking to someone who's representing it on stage and hopefully doing it right, correct or respectfully, I guess you know um was something that was important to him and he really enjoyed it, and when he got to see the performance they put him in the program in the whole nine yards, and so it was hopefully that they do connect those two. You know of seeing themselves on things on stage or in other places, in other media, and then seeing what I'm hopefully doing for other people. Yeah, absolutely.
Lolly:I think that is a great space to maybe pause and say thank you so much, Kyle, for coming on our podcast. I feel like we could have kept talking for, like you know, a couple more hours really, and so maybe we'll have to have, like episode, second episode with.
Josh Weed:Kyle Rock.
Lolly:But I would like you know, for you to say, like, if someone is interested in, you know, having a commission done, like how would they go about?
Josh Weed:doing that, give us all your socials and all the stuff.
Kyle Rock:Sure sure. So where I'm most active right now is still Instagram, where my handle or screen name or whatever it is, is Kyle Rock Art, all one word, no special. I'm double checking right now yeah, kyle Rock Art, no letters or any special characters I'll put this in the show notes too.
Josh Weed:It's at Kyle Rock Art, is that right?
Kyle Rock:I don't know. I think officially no. No, I don't think they're on Instagram anymore, do they? I?
Josh Weed:thought they did, but I'm not sure. We'll look it up, we'll just figure it out and put whatever the right thing is on the thing.
Kyle Rock:Yes, just search that I will be the one. I should be the one that pops up and uh, there's like multiple. That would be so funny. Thankfully no, although, man, if you typed in kyle r for a while, uh, kyle rittenhouse, oh that's funny I was like dang it, um, but uh, anyways, um, so I'm very active there, probably too active.
Kyle Rock:Um, I do like listen, like check my direct messages and everything like that, and so if commission is interested, like please follow me there. If you're not interested in the commission, uh, you can still follow me for free and I'm gonna show myself, you know. But like, that's a huge help for me.
Josh Weed:Absolutely everybody should follow kyle immediately. If you are, if you're someone that supports this idea and would like to see that kind of representation, get on there and follow Kyle. Also it's a oh, go ahead, go ahead, you go.
Kyle Rock:I was going to say I'm hoping, like again, what I go for is just fun and flirty and just kind of sassy fun. You know, like it's going to be. It's still a safe page, it's a safe page, and it's a good time.
Josh Weed:Safe page, and then also if you have any questions, maybe for Kyle or about this topic. Hop onto our Patreon where you can subscribe and then ask a question, and then maybe we would bring Kyle back on at some future point to ask any queries that were sent through. Yeah, that would be a blast.
Lolly:I really, really appreciate you coming in. I just love what you're doing.
Kyle Rock:Thank you. This has been a blast. It's been super fun and we can keep going forever and ever and ever. Totally, it was a really good time.
Lolly:Thank you so much.
Kyle Rock:You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Lolly:Thank you for listening and, as always, I'd just like to remind everyone that, while I am a licensed mental health therapist, the information shared in this podcast is just my personal opinion and is not professional or therapeutic advice. And listening to it doesn't mean I'm your therapist either, so if you need help, please seek help from your local professional. Thank you.