A Cultural Perspective on the End of Life from a Black Woman with Dr. Amelia Phillips

Today we have an opportunity to share a conversation with Dr. Amelia Phillips, a black woman working in a variety of fields dominated by white men including Engineering Information technology and real estate. 
Dr. Phillips  is a graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) with a BS degree in Astronautical Engineering and a BS in Archaeology along with an MBA in Technology Management from the University of Phoenix. She completed her PhD at the University of Alaska Fairbanks in Computer Security.
She has also managed rock bands, worked on an assembly line; has been a real estate broker, computer consultant, and hard money lender. 
She was a Fulbright Scholar at the Polytechnic of Namibia and returned there over the course of more than a decade as they grew to become the Namibia University of Science and Technology (NUST). 
Dr. Phillips, a black woman with a diverse background, shares her unique life experiences and perspectives on death and dying. She reflects on the impact of her mother's death at a young age and how it shaped her outlook on life. 
Dr. Phillips discusses the African American view of death and the role of funerals in the community. She also talks about her current work, challenges she faces, and her desire to leave a lasting impact on the world. 
Dr. Phillips discusses how she feels supported at the end of life. She talks about the importance of having good friends and accountability partners who provide emotional support and keep her motivated. She also emphasizes the significance of staying connected with spiritual practices and preparing for the next transition. 
The conversation touches on the fear of leaving a messy living space after death and the importance of decluttering and simplifying one's belongings. The idea of gifting meaningful items to friends and community members is also discussed as a way to pass on cherished mementos.

https://www.sfltimes.com/news/black-news-news/origins-and-history-of-the-black-funeral-service

https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2021/02/african-american-funeral-homes/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/01/black-funeral-homes-mourning/426807/

https://www.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/evan-w-smith-funeral-services/2021/02/01/african-american-funeral-homes-essential-throughout-history-and-today/4211105001/

Transcript

Annalouiza  
Today we have an opportunity to share a conversation with Dr. Amelia Phillips, a black woman working in a variety of fields dominated by white men, including engineering, information technology, and real estate. She has a wide variety of unique life experiences to draw from, starting from being raised as an army brat with lots of twists and turns in her life. Dr. Phillips is a graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a BS degree in Astronautical Engineering and a BS in Archaeology, along with an MBA in Technology Management from the University of Phoenix. She completed her PhD at the University of Alaska Fairbanks in Computer Security.

Wakil  
After working as an engineer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and at TRW, Amelia worked with e -commerce sites and began her training in computer forensics and investigations. She has also managed rock bands, worked on an assembly line, has been a real estate broker, computer consultant, and hard money lender. She has designed certificate, AAS and BAS programs, for community colleges in e -commerce, network security, digital forensics, and cybersecurity. She was a Fulbright scholar at the Polytechnic of Namibia and returned there over the course of more than a decade as they grew to become the Namibia University of Science and Technology, or NUST. She later served as a Fulbright ambassador and as a Fulbright specialist. Amelia continues to work with NUST on a variety of projects and curricula.

Wow, what an amazing story so far.

Annalouiza  
What an intro. I'm in awe and honored that you are here with us, Amelia.

Amelia Phillips  
Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Wakil  
Yeah.

Wakil  We, yeah, we always like to start with this question. When did you first become aware of death?

Amelia Phillips  
Wow. I became aware of death when my mother died in a car crash. I was eight and a half years old and it just threw my life into a tailspin. I woke up into a nightmare.

My father had been on TDY, temporary duty assignment, elsewhere, and he was called home to where we were. I remember him saying that my older brother tried to crawl into the casket with my mother to hug her, and so he wouldn't let me and my little brother see her. And part of me just didn't want to believe that she was gone.

And in those days, people could be just miles away and you would never know because the internet didn't really exist in those days. And someone could be 10,000 miles away, perfectly well and happy. However, a couple of years later, when my brothers were put into foster care and I was left alone with my father's second wife, I knew she had to be dead, that there was no way she would let something like this happen. So that was when it really dawned on me that death was real and permanent.

Wakil  
Wow. Thank you for sharing that story. 

Annalouiza  
So with that as a formative story in your life, how did that impact the rest of your life?

Amelia Phillips  
Wow. That started things and having been, as mentioned earlier, being raised as an army brat that because you move a lot when your parents are in the military, my father was in the military, and so you're used to moving all the time. And my family life became even more fractured because my mother had died, then my father, you know, remarried, had signed my brothers over as wards of the state, and then 
we got transferred from North Carolina to Colorado, or he did, and then his second wife left him because she wasn't used to the military life. My father woke me up in the middle of the night when I was 13 and his nose had been bleeding since midnight. It was 3 AM and he was afraid he was going to die. So he taught me how to open and close probate when I was 13.

He told me what I had to be responsible for, what the military would handle, things like that.

What I really learned was that, you know, life is fragile, nothing's guaranteed. And so I sat down, I'm like, okay, I want off this planet because this planet doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And that's when I laid out what I was going to do. And, you know, it's like, I've got to build a starship. How do you build a starship? And so it just, you need money.

Wakil  
Ha!

Amelia Phillips  
Let's see, if I sell a book, then I have to invest in real estate. So this is when I'm like 12 and 13 years old and I was going to run for president. So I had all these plans. So that's how it affected my life was that I'm just like, you know, you can't depend on anything out there and that death comes to everybody and you never know when it's coming.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Annalouiza  
Wow, well, I just need to take a moment and I am breathing in all that 12, 13 years old child who began this trajectory in your life to build your starship and I honor your path. Dr. Phillips, it's been a real one.

Amelia Phillips  
Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Since this is about end of life looking at sort of the African American view of the end of life, I got to watch like when all this was going on, my great uncle Frank and great aunt Bea passed away. And they used to live up the street from us when my mother was alive. They were related on my father's side of the family. But one died and then the other died six months later. And you're like, you start to notice that couples that have been together for 40 and 50 years, you know, tend to die very closely in time with each other. 

And so that was just one of the observations. I had done a little bit of research before this talk. I hadn't realized that during the Civil War, the black soldiers were the ones who had to go and get the bodies and they helped the doctors. And because the families in the North wanted to see, you know, the bodies of their loved ones, the black soldiers learned how to do embalming. And so by the early 1900s, you had all these, what were called black funeral parlors, because that was the natural progression of it for them to have a job. And because the white funeral homes were not going to bury blacks in those days anyway. This was very, very common. And I know growing up in Winston-Salem, there were just tons of black funeral homes. Clark Brown and Sons embalmed my grandfather, my father, my mother. You know, that was just part of it.

And things just, it was fascinating when, or I just found it amusing, when my father passed away. He passed away in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and I found a black woman and her daughter who owned a funeral home. And my father wanted to be buried in the family plot in Winston -Salem. And so we were accompanied by a military procession, because it was peace time. So you had a van full of soldiers to do the 21 gun salute. And so when we got into Winston -Salem, we met up with another black funeral home. And it just so happened that they all knew my aunts and uncles, because they had gone to high school together. Because it was just all part of the black community. And you're talking, you know, decades later. So it's just one of those things, you're just like, wow, this really happens. 

And then like my auntie just passed at 98 back in September and my cousin and his wife are like, well, we need to know exactly how many people are coming. And I'm like, okay, you know, I checked with this cousin and this cousin and I get there and I'm expecting, you know, I know where the church is. So I'm just going to drive to the church. Wrong. You got limousines. Okay. You know, you get taken by limousine to the church. You've got a police escort, whole nine yards. 

Annalouiza  
That's cool.

Amelia Phillips
Yeah. Yeah. It's just, you get to the church. So you, it's a formal, the family is led in. You have a family viewing for an hour and then the other guests are allowed in. And then the whole, thing happens. her sorority had to bring her out and all of this. And then, you know, the whole, ceremony happens.

And then again, the guests are let out, the family does a final viewing, and then we're led out. All the flowers and everything have to be loaded into the hearse along with the coffin. And then we go to the grave site. So then you have another thing at the grave site. So it's very, very much part of the African -American tradition.

And when you look at some of the references that I gave you all that people can look at, it's also part of protest, which I'm sure people have seen in some of the movies and things about some of the injustices is that they use funerals as a way to protest. 

Wakil  
Right.

Amelia Phillips  
And a lot of politics, you know, come out of the African-American churches. You know, when you just look at Reverend Dr Martin Luther King. So there's all this stuff that's very much intertwined with not just the burial but with the religion way of life stuff like that. So this is really interesting to look at.

Wakil  
Yeah, and that kind of deep sense of formality and ritual that's a part of it really makes it really seems like that's part of what you're talking about. I think it's so important to the entire process to be steeped in that ritual and that and what people know and people expect. And you do you follow those that process. Yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
Right. So it's one thing I forgot to mention, like my father had always said he wanted to be buried in the family burial plot, which my grandfather had purchased back in 1940 when one of my aunties passed away from tuberculosis. So I had to actually go before the family council and go, can I use one of the final plots, one of the final spaces, because he only bought six plots inside of the family plot, six spaces. And I had to ask for permission and everybody agreed. But it's not like I could just say, I'm burying my father there. You know, the whole family had to agree to it.

Wakil  
Yeah. Wow.

Amelia Phillips  
It's one of those things you just, you learn that, yeah, that whole formality and, you know, they had to decide even for my auntie, where was she going to be buried? You know, is she being buried with her first husband, with her second husband, with her son? You know, it's all these things that come into play.

Wakil  
Yeah.

Annalouiza  
Yeah, the protocols and...

You're still family, right? You're still trying to make sure that everybody's going to get along.

Amelia Phillips  
Right, right. 

Wakil  
Yeah, yeah. I think that's the other thing I really hear there too is that emphasis. The emphasis on family, the extended family, and not only everybody is listened to, everybody is important, and the extended family is invited to participate, encouraged to participate.

Amelia Phillips  
Definitely, definitely. It was so cute at my auntie's funeral, because I was on the program. And then my cousins, my second cousins, her grandchildren, weren't sure if her great -grandson wanted to talk or not. And at the last minute, he decided, yes, I want to say something at great -grandma's funeral. And so they're like, Amelia, can he go up with you? And I'm like, of course.

So, you know, this little 10-year-old gets up there to say goodbye to his great -grandma. You know, so it's just one of those things of everybody gets to participate.

Annalouiza  
Well, participate and continue memory making because that child going up with you will have cast a memory into the whole community. And even years later, it's like, do you remember, you know, great grandma's funeral and what so -and -so said? 

And I think that that's actually another part of this ritual that we always tend to just forget that it's happening, that it's going to imbue another layer for us to hold on to, right? It's another ritual.

Amelia Phillips  
Right, right. And the other day when Wakil David and I met for sort of coffee, I brought the program for my auntie and he got to see all the pictures they had found. You know, you're looking, she was 98 years old, so you're talking, you know, 70 years of pictures and longer than that that they had put together into the program. It was just amazing.

Wakil  
Yeah, it was two full large pages of small pictures. 

Amelia Phillips  
Hehehehehe

Annalouiza  
That's awesome.

Wakil
It was really, really was quite remarkable. So what are you, what is your current work that you're doing these days? Is as relates, if it relates to end of life or just in general?

Amelia Phillips  
I'm still teaching, I still teach graduate school. I am a student in a meditation school that, you know, we teach the tessellated pavement, that you're gonna have more of a division between good and evil. And just really working on the subtle bodies and being aware of you know, what's going on in the world? 

You look at some of these things and you're going, okay, the only reason certain people are still breathing is because there is some evil being keeping them alive. You know, it's just like, yeah, that person should not be breathing anymore. However, comma, you know, but you really have to look at yourself and influence the people around you and still be kind to folks and...

Wakil  
Yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
Be good to yourself and really work on what you're doing. One of the things that you would, I think it's put in here of end of life for myself is that I want to make sure that I've done what I was put on this world to do. Because you've already seen, I was given a lot of abilities and talents. And it's like, okay, what am I supposed to be doing right now? Have I done the very best? What do I want to do? What can help people? How do I inspire people?

Wakil  
Mm -hmm.

Amelia Phillips  
And I think in anything that I do, whether I'm teaching or just out there, I inspire people to do things. 

Wakil  
Yes, you do.

Amelia Phillips
It's like, you know, thank you. You know, I just always say the impossible just takes a little longer. 

Wakil  
That was certainly my experience with working with you and has been my experience with my, with our relationship, knowing each other and just noticing the, just all the different things that you do. You always impressed the heck out of me, but that sense that we, that we just have to do our best and keep doing our best and doing what we are here to do. So, and the great example, you live that example beautifully. Thank you.

Amelia Phillips  
Thank you.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Yes. So, okay, so your current work is teaching...

Amelia Phillips  
Yes.

Annalouiza
and you're a black woman who is teaching in very probably white centered spaces. Would that be true? Is that true? Yeah.

Amelia Phillips 
Yeah, for it's changing. 

Annalouiza  
Okay.

Amelia Phillips
It's changing. I like what happened at one college I was at when I first started the applied bachelor's program. The program was dominated by actually Eastern European men students. And over the years, it's slowly changed. We've gotten more women into the program. It was during that period of time that the Women in Cybersecurity was started. 

I remember traveling with, what did we have, seven women, young women and a woman my age who were all students to Nashville to go to the conference to get more of them in there. And I always enjoy when I go to Namibia because Namibia is 90 % black. And so the teams, a lot of times are half women, half men.

So it's really it's interesting to watch versus looking at the European teams. It's still dominated by men, 

When you look at the international competition, so It's one of those things where you still want to get more people of color more women into the fields and let them know that they can be successful in it

Annalouiza  
Beautiful. So what are your biggest challenges in this in this field?

So the biggest challenges we talk about are around death and dying. And so Dr. Phillips is not working in death and dying. How could we like shift it? Right? Like.

Wakil  
Well, maybe as you said earlier, you didn't expect to be here this long, right? And so as you're, in the third half of life, if you will, what are your challenges? What's challenging to you as far as making sure you do get the things done that you want to be done? And, you know, what kind of, I guess maybe that's the way to, to hold it, including the challenges that you face in your work, because those certainly affect whether you can get the things done you hope to do, right?

Amelia Phillips  
That's a very good question. You know, I start to worry about, you know, I have, I've been one of those people, because even a friend looked at me like I was weird. As soon as my father died, I made up my will. So I was 28 years old when I buried my father. And I update my will every time I go overseas and people are like, you do what? I'm like, yeah, you know, my will is sitting right there on top of my laptop that I leave at home. It's always there, always done. 

And I'm like, well, I don't want my second cousins stuck with me if I get Alzheimer's or something. So it's one of those, okay, what do I do with the living trust and the medical end of life, things of that nature. It's making sure that I'm not gonna burden them. Because I watched what happened with my auntie and her son loved her and he sat with her the night that she died.

They called him and said, you know, she won't wake up. And he sat with her, you know, all day Tuesday and she died at four o 'clock Wednesday morning. And he stayed with her the whole time. And, you know, I'm sure my second cousins love me, but not that way. You know, and I don't want to put them through something like that. So it's more looking at, you know, do I want to be able to say, okay, I've had enough, go ahead and, you know, let's do a euthanasia or something of that nature. 

Or, you know, it might be where I die unexpectedly. Because as I've seen through my life, you never know. So my mentor, it's been 20 plus years ago, hung himself. That was unexpected. I have no intention of doing that, but you just never know. 

An ex -boyfriend died at the age of 46 of cirrhosis of the liver. You know, there are just all these things that come into play. And as I'm entering, as you said, that last, you know, third of life, so I've gone through all of this and I've got, you know, maybe another good 20 or 30 years left. Am I going to travel? Am I going to just go around giving talks? You know, what am I going to do to help people?

I definitely plan to write the story of my childhood just to show people, yeah, you can overcome anything. And to leave that as a gift. And just some of my adventures because when I tell people the story of some of the things I've done, they're like, you're crazy. Yes, I am.

Wakil  
Yay!

Annalouiza  
Yes.

Amelia Phillips  
You know, I've lived my life as an adventurer because I knew it was short, you know? And so I'd like to leave that for people.

Wakil  
That's great. Yeah, it sounds like the challenges are around, around, you know, what we've talked about already, you know, just these, these are the things that I would like to contribute to the world. And so how do I, how do I ensure that I can do that, continue to do that? 

And the relationships that are left and how do I make sure people know my wishes and, and how do I have as little impact as possible on those that have to deal with my body when I'm done. All those things that we talk a lot about on here about ways to prepare that way. But yeah, great. Those make a lot of sense. Definitely the challenges many of us are facing as well.

Amelia Phillips  
Yeah, and I think especially because I do have a good reputation, I have to be careful that I'm doing what I want to do and not what other people want me to do.

Wakil  
Sure, yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
It's easy to get distracted. It's like, ooh! Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt you.

Annalouiza  
No, that's okay. I'm like, I really do want you to be my mentor.

Amelia Phillips  
Okay! Give me your number! You - you -

Annalouiza  
So, okay, we talked about these challenges. So how do you feel supported at the end of life?

Amelia Phillips  
I have good friends, you know. I've had a situation and I just, you know, emailed, texted a friend and said, can I come stay with you for a couple of days with you and your partner? He's like, well, let me talk to my partner. They're like, come on over. You know, and it was just very supportive. I've ended up with some accountability friends of, yeah, I need to talk to somebody because like, yeah, I could just sit here and watch TV all day, you know, if I really, really let myself, but I need to go and do this. 

And just having people to talk to. And also with the meditation school of making sure that I am meditating and building my subtle bodies and staying in connection with what is above. And you know, getting ready for the next transition. You know, you never know what you're coming. I do believe in reincarnation. So it's like, you know, you never know what you're coming back as. I was lucky...

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Amelia Phillips  
to be born into the family I was born into. I got lucky this go -round, other people did not. So it's also just reminding myself of that and staying very much in touch with the spiritual connections. So that's very, very important.

Annalouiza  
I love how you have accountability friends too, because there have been times when I feel like I do have an idea that this is a very finite time of living on earth. And I do like sometimes just sit around and stare into space because I just get overwhelmed, right? 

Amelia Phillips  
Yeah.

Annalouiza  
But accountability, like I feel like a lot of this world we need, some people are really working hard to just keep their families fed and clothed and housed. And yet their life is just as finite as mine. 

Amelia Phillips  
Right.

Annalouiza  
And how do we support one another when it's just really hard? Because life is more than just working and in the grind. It's about checking in with those subtle bodies and just the remembering and the polishing your mirror on a daily basis. I find that that's so essential, but not everybody does it.

Amelia Phillips  
Right, right. And it's one of those things that, yeah, you do have to give to people and you have to remember that you're able to do it.

And even some of the poorest people do remember. And some of the wealthiest don't even know. They're completely oblivious to it.

Wakil  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Annalouiza  
This is also true.

Wakil  
Yeah. Is there anything about the end of life that frightens you?

Amelia Phillips  
I need to, I can be very messy, so I just, I'm afraid of people walking into my place when I'm dead.

Annalouiza  
Oh my God. Yes.

Wakil  
That might be the best answer so far.

Amelia Phillips  
I think I just want to get everything cleaned up and thrown out and actually, you know, shedding a lot of things because there's stuff that like, okay, I don't need that. That can go in the shredder, that can go in the shredder, that can go to Goodwill, go, go, go. And just getting down to the very bare minimum of what's needed, you know?
 
I think I learned that when I lived in Namibia for a year and a half. I had shoved everything into storage and basically all I had was my two suitcases and my laptop. That's all you really need. And they bought me a car that I could use while I was there. I sold my car before I left. So you start to realize all the stuff that you really, really don't need.

Annalouiza  
But I have a question though about that because there is stuff that we have. And I have lots of stuff too. There are also little keepsakes or little mementos that create kind of this like a carapace over yourself. And I know for myself, my kids really get upset with me when I start giving my things away because they're like, no, no, no. I want to remember that stone or that little trinket that you bought because I remember that moment. Do you think that it's essential that we have little mementos to leave behind?

Amelia Phillips  
It depends. You know, I read, like when I was reading my auntie's will, the part that they didn't black out. You know, because I didn't need to know the amount of money that all my other, you know, her son and stuff were getting. And there were certain things that, you know, met stuff like to her granddaughters and stuff like that, where it's like, yeah. With my things, I don't have anyone to give them to. I have certain friends that probably, that gave me presents that I'll probably say, return this to so-and-so. Or certain pieces of art that I know somebody liked that I would leave to them. I mean, the mementos that I have are like my auntie when I was 24 years old. She didn't realize that my father had burned every picture of my mother when she died. And I had, oh yeah. So I'm 24 years old and I have not seen a picture of my mother since I was eight and a half. 

She called all my aunts and uncles and found pictures of my mother, of me with my mom and me with my brothers and my mother, stuff like that. That was very meaningful. So those are things that I definitely hold on to.

Wakil  
Yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
There's a great picture of all my aunts and uncles and my dad's probably 12 years old. They're all in their Sunday go to meetin' close. And, you know, there's this great picture. My dad's laying out on the lawn in a suit and, you know, the older ones are standing around him. It's a great black and white picture. And that's one of the things that I definitely would keep with me. So it's little things like that that matter.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Amelia Phillips  
The other stuff, you know, I mean, I've, yeah, my music collection is great and I still have all my LPs from way back when I was in high school. But yeah, it would be little things like that that are meaningful.

Wakil  
Yeah, yeah. Well, and you talked about the story of your life that you want to complete and that would definitely be a gift to probably a lot more people than just your family. But so, yeah, those kind of things. Whenever we think about stuff, you know, all this stuff, there is that question that comes up, you know, well, this means a lot to me. Who else would it mean a lot to or will it mean a lot to anybody or is it just goodwill? 

Amelia Phillips  
Right. Right. Well, having, you know, when my dad was dying and I was sitting there, because he got hospitalized in September and he didn't pass away until January. So once I had signed the do not resuscitate order and I'm sitting there in the house going through everything and going, okay, this I'm going to ship home. This goes to Goodwill. And then when the auctioneer came in and he's like, you're not going to get more than a hundred bucks for that. The only thing that was worth anything was the piano, you know, to other people. 

And that's when I quickly learned how useless things are. And also as a military brat growing up military, you can't carry that much stuff with you anyway. You know, so yeah, it's just really something to consider of there's just things. It's the people and the relationships both with the people humans and with your spiritual relationships are the things that really matter.

Annalouiza  
Right. I'm just thinking back to, I think it was a year or two ago that I read in the New York Times. There was an article from a couple, an older couple in DC, and they were having this thought too. They went through their home and they cleaned out all the stuff that they knew, you know, could go to Goodwill and,  refugee centers and et cetera. But what they ended up doing, which I actually really love is that everything that was left in the house, I think they actually might've had a child or two and the children came in and picked what they wanted, but they invited all their friends and neighbors to just wander through the house and pick whatever you want and take it with you. You're done. We're done. Like, don't worry about it. And there wasn't a moment of like imminent death for either one of them, but they're like, we don't want this to like, you know, go to the trash for people. Cause some, some of these things you'll love.

And I'm thinking back to last week, Wakil and I interviewed a very lovely young woman who talked about living more in the collective and have and having more people in your life to like hold you during transitions and thresholds that you pass over. And she's like, I am committed as, as difficult as it is to live in community. I want to live with other people and be in relationship with them. And it occurs to me that I do have a lot of art supplies and whatnot, right? There's things that other people could benefit from, but there's also a lot of really sweet little trinkets that I would, I would be delighted to invite all my friends and just be like, go through the house and pick that one little thing that you really love and think of me. Like I have friends in their thirties. So, you know, if I died at 90, they'd still be in their sixties and you know, they could still have more time to enjoy it. So, so, you know, I do, I do want to honor that, that.

It is difficult to be aware that at the end somebody's going to have to take care of all of this stuff. And at the same time, some of these things can be very meaningful to people that we don't assume would be interested, you know, like, or create a little art piece out front and say, you know, they have little libraries? Around Denver there's a little gallery and people like put little trinkets in there and you could go through and there's another woman down the street who puts like art supplies as well. So I'm always like, what's in there? So, you know, I think we have to start learning how to gift freely, you know? 

Amelia Phillips  
That's a great idea. Yeah, yeah. 

Wakil  
I love that. We talk in our class about one idea is the death party, right? Where you sit around and get together the people who are going to be dealing with you when you're gone and talk about that, talk about what your wishes are and make sure everybody's on the same page and do that on a regular basis. But I love the idea of a community gathering to clean house. There's got to be a great way we could honor that, name that.

Amelia Phillips  
Yeah.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Wakil  
Add that to the list of things you could do. Just everybody I know, everybody I love, everybody, just neighbors. 

Annalouiza  
Right.

Right. Well, it's also as eco-chaplains, like the resources are finite. You know, stuff is, as somebody who collects a lot of textiles, I also, you know, textiles are so precious to me. They're made once and then that design may never happen again, ever, ever. Right. And so the fact that we very pointedly say these have been created these may never come through again. If it delights your heart and fills your soul, like, you know, the earth has given this to me for time being to hold onto, now it's your turn.

Wakil  
Yeah, yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
Yeah, yeah, that's very, very true. Now you just remind me of my cousin one time had come over when I was living on Lower Queen Anne and she was like, she couldn't figure out my artwork. She's like, it doesn't go with, she's like, what is all this stuff? And she's like, these are from places you've visited over the years. And I'm like, yes, yes. And then probably about six or seven years ago, I picked certain key pieces of art that I had purchased. One I purchased on an island off of Madagascar. Another I purchased in Cape Town and all the colors tie together. Another had been an artist out of Kenya who was at Bumbershoot here in Seattle. And so just, so when people walk in, the color from one piece is there but they all sort of tie together in the color flow of the house. 

Annalouiza  
Hmm.

Wakil  
Wow, beautiful.

Amelia Phillips  
And yeah, so it just, that type of thing where I'd like people to appreciate and be able just to come in and when I pass, if you like this piece of art, please take it, because this is where it came from. It's not something you're going to run across everywhere.

Wakil  Yeah.

Annalouiza  
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Wakil  
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Well, wonderful ideas. Thank you, Amelia, for getting us here. It's really been great. 

Annalouiza  
Yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
Thank you for having me.

Wakil
Yeah. We do have the last question, I guess, which is, what do you wish we had asked? Is there anything else you'd like to share?

Amelia Phillips  
Wow. I think you all have asked everything. People can find me online, on Amazon. But yeah, it's just, wow. I think you've asked me everything, because that whole thing of the last 20 to 30 years, when you've already passed the whole pinnacle, and you're looking at the end, and you know that it's shorter than what you've already done. Hey, how do you make the most of it? How do you go out with a bang?

Annalouiza  
100 percent.

Wakil  
I think, you know, was it our last, the last interview she said she wanted to go out in a convertible. 

Annalouiza  
That's right, hit by a deer truck, a John Deer truck or something? a deer.

Wakil
She wanted a beer, a beer truck. 

Amelia Phillips  
Whaaat?

Annalouiza  
She did, yeah.

Amelia Phillips  
Wow, yeah.

Wakil
Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Well, yeah, it has been really great talking to you, Amelia. And I just really appreciate you all that you do. And all you have done and all you will do.

Amelia Phillips  
Thank you. So hopefully, who knows, I may one day actually be able to go out into outer space before I die. Who knows.

Annalouiza  
I don't doubt that about you.

Wakil  
Yeah, that would be so good. If anybody deserves it... 

Amelia Phillips  
Thank you.

Wakil
better than the billionaires who are plotting down plopping down a hundred thousand dollars to go up and float and come back.

Amelia Phillips  
Oh gosh, yeah. Now that, you know, I really did want to be an astronaut and I applied the minute I was eligible I started applying. 

Wakil  
Nice.

Amelia Phillips 
And then life took a left turn and we shall see what happens.

Wakil
I wonder if not too far in the future one of the options for disposal of the body will be to shoot it off into space.

Amelia Phillips  
That would be interesting to figure out how to do, because they're doing the composting now, how do you do composting in space? 

Wakil  
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. All right, another another job for us to work on.

Amelia Phillips 
So yeah, good question. Okay, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Annalouiza 
And now as we do on every one of our episodes, we have a poem that is shared by our guest. And today Dr. Phillips has shared a poem called A Little Poem by Portia Nelson. And it's "The Hole."

Amelia Phillips
Thank you. 

A Little Poem, by Portia Nelson  [the hole]

Chapter One –
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost … I am helpless.
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

Chapter Two –
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend that I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I’m in this same place.
But it isn’t my fault.
It stlll takes a long time to get out.

Chapter Three –
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in … it’s a habit … but my eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

Chapter Four –
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

Chapter Five –
I walk down another street.

Annalouiza 
I love this. Yes. it's a habit.

Wakil 
That's so great. Wow, is that life? That is so much about our lives, isn't it? Thanks. Yeah. Well, once again, thank you, Amelia, so much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure.