Wakil
Today we are very, very happy to be able to share a conversation with two friends, Diana and Luc. Diana O 'Rourke Verschure, who also goes by Dee, is an echo folk artist living in Colorado on the Cheyenne, Ute, and Arapaho ancestral lands. Dee's small business, Thimble and Stone, supports collective liberation through functional folk arts, placing an emphasis on ritual and wellness. One of Dee's artistic focuses is on painting simple, nature -inspired designs onto echo cremation urns using natural pigments.
Annalouiza
We also welcome Luc Nadeau. He is an entrepreneur, artist, and a freelance ecologist living in Longmont, Colorado. He started Nature's Casket in 2008 to provide eco -friendly caskets and urns. Welcome, welcome to this podcast.
Wakil
Yeah, welcome Dee and Luc. It's great to have you. So we like to start with this question and you could both take turns. Let's say, why don't we make it easier and just say, Luc, why don't you go first? But let us know when you first became aware of death.
Luc
Well, first of all, thanks a lot for having me on. And I kind of want to ask you guys this question too, but I feel like when did we all become aware of death? I mean, for most people, it's when we're pretty young, right? I remember a dream I had. My friend told me he was doing some drama club. And, jeez, we must have been about six or seven years old. And he said they were acting like pirates. And I had a nightmare that night about the pirates trying to beckon me to come into a swimming pool of all things. And I was deathly afraid and that was of death. So, of course, since then, I've had some more experiences with death, grandparents dying, and friends from high school.
And, but probably the most visceral, the closest to my heart was when my younger brother, who's just a couple of years younger than I am, almost died from complications due to a kidney disease that he has. And that's when, you know, for me, I think I really started to think a little more seriously about death and about how I don't want my brother or anybody else close to me to die.
Wakil
Dee, what about you?
Diana
Yeah, thanks also for having me and it's good to be here with you, Luc. It's funny you mentioned a swimming pool because I have this really distinct memory of being very young, maybe even four. I'm not sure exactly, somewhere between the ages of three and five and being in, we had like a kid swimming pool in the backyard and I remember being in that pool.
And I think I was looking at my reflection in the screen glass, like the screen or the glass, sliding glass door that also had a screen, but the glass was closed and seeing myself and thinking, I'm going to die someday. And I don't know where the thought came from or what made it occur. There wasn't anything going on in my life at that time in terms of anyone having physically died, but I just remember it striking me at that age and that's the first memory that I have.
And it wasn't until I was in my teen years that I had the first significant death in my life, which was my paternal grandfather. And then more recently, my maternal grandmother died who helped raise me and that was very impactful. So those are three sort of things that come right to mind with the question.
Annalouiza
Well, for our listeners who are wondering what Luc and Dee have in connection with each other is that Luc makes caskets that Dee paints on. And so when we are talking about how death impacts this story, they can just start telling us how this was created between the two of you.
Luc
Yeah, well, maybe Dee can say I started my company, Nature's Casket in 2008. And I think it was much later that we've connected. And so maybe you remember Dee how that began.
Diana
Yeah, sure. It was around 2014 or 2015 that I got involved with Natural Transitions, which is a local nonprofit here that works on holistic, holistic pieces around death and dying. It's a great organization. And I believe it was through them and through Karen that I met you, Luc. And I'm remembering that there was a coffin that you had that was actually the coffin shaped rather than the casket square shape. It had the actual coffin shape. And we, through natural transitions, acquired that from you. And I painted on it to raise awareness about green burial. And so that's how you and I first got connected and then kind of experimented with me painting on some urns and seeing what happened and where it went.
Luc
Yeah, and that I remember that casket being displayed at a festival of some sort. And people were coming up to ask questions about green burial and home funerals and things like that. And it was striking, a beautiful casket. And I believe families since used that. And the urns as well. So for anybody listening to this, you've got to check out her work on these urns and I hope you have a picture of that casket somewhere too that people can see because it's beautiful work.
Annalouiza
Yeah, you know, oddly, I think I might have a picture of it because at that time I was training with Karen to do like reverent body care and natural funerals. And she had a, do you remember the movie, The Parlor? I think she like rented out a space and that casket was in that space. And I remember taking pictures of it because it was so beautiful.
Diana
I think I remember that event actually. Yeah.
Annalouiza
Yeah, yeah, this is a long time ago.
Diana
Yeah, and I can I add too, like, thank you for the compliment, Luc. A big part of painting on these pieces is the beauty also of your work. And so I feel like each casket, each urn, each coffin, each piece that you do.
And I believe that most of them are beetle kill. I'm sure you can talk more about that. But the way that the patterns show through on the wood inspires what I end up painting on them. And I always have this moment before I put the paint on that I'm like, because it's so beautiful as it's without anything on it. Like the wood is just so amazing. And the designs that come through are, it's beautiful.
Annalouiza
There is an element of playing with the wood beauty and your paint. So I love how it just kind of complements each other. And it's lovely. It's like somebody is physically making this casket, and then you're painting on it, and the family is touching it. And it's just this beauty. It's like this poem, actually, that just keeps growing and growing. So it's so beautiful.
Luc
Yep. It is beautiful.
Wakil
Yeah, we will definitely put some pictures and links to pictures in our podcast notes because I definitely want to see them now. And I want to know more about Beetle Kill. Tell me what that is. Yeah.
Luc
Yeah, well that's what I was going to say, and that's where the beauty starts actually from what is kind of a tragedy, which is the pine beetle epidemic. Pine beetles are native to the Rocky Mountains, but because of the way we've managed our forests, this is my understanding, there are a lot of even -aged stands, meaning very dense stands of pine, particularly ponderosa and geez, what's the other one?
Diana
Lodgepole?
Luc
Lodgepole and Lodgepole, yeah, particularly Ponderosa and Lodgepole pine. And they, because of these even -aged stands, they were particularly susceptible to the pine beetles just ravaging them, you know, spreading from tree to tree. And so you would go up into the mountains and I think you still can just see, you could see this evolution of the destruction of a whole mountainside as it first turned red, all the needles turned red and then they fell off and then the trees start falling, also becoming more susceptible to forest fires.
So the beetles though secrete, I don't know, it's their waste and fungus feeds on that and it creates this incredible blue, usually blueish grayish stain in the grain and it's and it sometimes has spectacular patterns and so very occasionally you'll see a little purplish or reddish or orangish grain to it and the you know and so what Dee gets to work with then after we put these together is some of these patterns are striking and she's just adding to that beauty and also, you know, some of the knots and things in the wood, often I'll see some that look like sunsets or just, you know, other beautiful patterns and Dee does a great job of bringing that out.
Annalouiza
Do you ever ask or tell her like, look, did you notice this? Or does she just get the caskets with no information?
Luc
Yeah, well, mostly she works on urns now. I think you've maybe only done that one toe pincher coffin. you've done two. OK. Yeah. But I think we've talked a little bit about, I'll say, look at this knot here. It's got to be highlighted. But it's mostly her just doing her thing.
Wakil
And are the urns made from, what are the urns made from?
Luc
Yeah, the urns are also made out of the beetle kill. I have used some other woods, but beetle kill or blue stain pine is the most common.
Wakil
There's something so incredibly beautiful about that whole story, about the tragedy of the beetles and the brought on by our foolishness, if you will, by our unconnectedness, and then creating this connection with that in a beautiful way of creating art from that. It's just, it's a it really touches my heart just to think that that's what's happening from that. It's a beautiful, beautiful result. So thank you for doing it. I can't wait to see some pictures.
Luc
Yeah, and I have to say a lot of, I would say, you know, probably 20 to 50 of my clients over the years have been people that grew up in the mountains and, you know, this is of the people I know about and love the forests and they just really felt that the whole idea of this being buried or, you know, having their cremains put into an urn made out of these trees that had been surrounding them in their childhood, in their life, was very meaningful to a lot of people.
Wakil
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Annalouiza
Yeah, that is beautiful. And you know, I think this is as a culture, we tend to run away from any kind of object that could signify death or endings. And, you know, you've seen the beauty in the beetle kill that has really decimated large swaths of our forest here in Colorado. And yet, you know, there's still beauty to be found in that wood. And I know that there's some places that more nature has moved in. It's all regenerative. So I appreciate that, holding that thought around these caskets.
So what are the biggest challenges around making caskets and then getting to paint them for usage?
Luc
Okay, I guess I'll start with the first part is the caskets. We, you know, it's been like I said, over 15 years and I used to ship these around the country. Well, it's kind of a mundane thing, but shipping caskets is hard. And we used to have to make a casket to ship the casket in essentially, you know, using cardboard sides and a lot of them got damaged and eventually I stopped, I stopped shipping them and we just either deliver them locally or people come pick them up now. But it's, that's really about it from, from that, the standpoint of difficulty.
I mean, I think it could be a hard business if it was somebody's full -time business. It's kind of always been a side business for me, but really everything else is just rewarding about doing this business and I don't feel like there's many challenges and especially now where I don't advertise, I don't have to ship, but basically just deal with really amazing people like at the natural funeral or with families directly who, you know, see so much meaning and catharsis in this process. And for me, it's just very gratifying.
Wakil
Do the families themselves ever do any of the decoration?
Luc
Yeah, I've had families do it and then get back to me and say really what a cathartic experience that was. A whole family working on a teenager's casket, a teenager who was killed in a skiing accident, and it's such a tragic thing, but that they were involved with the process of getting the casket. And then actually, I think maybe that was one that they put together from a kit and then a bunch of members of the family working on making it something special for them and for their daughter.
Annalouiza
Dee, pray tell.
Diana
Yeah, I would echo a lot of what Luc said about minimal challenge. This is also something I do on the side and I've been able to slowly develop it over time. And the biggest challenge really has been trying to find organic biodegradable or eco pigments and finding pigments that will last also, but the point is actually for them to go back to the earth. The point is for them to biodegrade, but finding something that will last long enough that if rain falls on it, it's not going to completely disintegrate. And so that's been an interesting exploration.
And I tend to mostly use natural pigments mixed with walnut oil now, which are very slow drying. And that can be a challenge if someone is requesting a specific design for a loved one and there's time constraints. But usually that hasn't been a problem. And then when I'm painting a casket or a coffin, I've used milk paint because that's a little bit faster drying and it's easier to apply to bigger surfaces.
And so just learning the nuances with those pigments and, you know, they're a little bit tricky sometimes with mixing or depending on the color scheme I'm going for. So there can be limitations, which I think it is a challenge, but it's also there's something about it that creates a container because there's a, I don't know if limit is the right word, but there's a way that we create with what we have.
And I think there's something to that that could be applied to so many things in life. And I've learned a lot from that process. And I think, you know, getting, one of the biggest challenges for me as a visual artist was always, I felt like there were so many materials that go with it. And so switching over to doing functional eco-art, there's a purpose to each piece and that's very fulfilling for me to know that it's being used for something and loved in that way. And yeah, I hold also in my heart the many stories of supporting and working with different families akin to what Luc was sharing. So, yeah.
Wakil
Beautiful. I was wondering, I had a question about materials. So Luc, are you going into the woods yourself to get the materials or do you have a source that provides and does the milling and all that for you? Or one or the other, maybe both?
Luc
I think that would be really neat if I could do that. But I know I get, I have a source that's been through some middle people on the way to me. And that actually does point to another challenge, especially, I think now that it is a little harder to find the blue stain, you know, most of the trees around here have, my understanding is that they've been, they're dead. They've been dead for a while and a lot of them are falling down and starting to rot.
And so there's at a certain point, there won't be as much a blue stain pine. And we'll look back on this era, you know, in 100 years, and we'll say, that floor, or that ceiling was put up in the, you know, the 2010s, or because of that's when the the beetle kill epidemic was. But so yeah, for the I've been able to source it just through kind of local, I don't know what you call them, brokers. And one of those is the Home Depot, but there's a local one called United Wood Products that I've gotten a bunch from in the past, but it's just getting a little harder to find.
Annalouiza
I'm just really interested going back to Dee and the limits of the tools that we use. Sometimes around death and dying, we tend to have that moment that a casket is needed. It's right now, family's being pressured to buy beautiful, big, expensive, whatever it is, right? Everybody has different pressures.
And if we're in this age of really minding how we consume, it behooves the artisans to think about, yeah, you know, I might have to use walnut oil. It'll take a little longer to dry, but it will disintegrate. It will compost back into the soil. It'll be cleaner than, you know, XYZ materials. So I really appreciate that about your thoughtfulness, because I think sometimes, I want to make the right choice and then I pivot because someone's in a hurry.
And I value taking time and doing it right and being really intentional about this, especially around death and dying, especially about burying a loved one and creating an urn or, you know, it's all so special. So I appreciate that.
Diana
Mm -hmm.
Thank you, yeah. I had a thought in response to that about, there's something about like the dominant Western paradigm that we live in that wants endless growth, you know? And so something about containing and slowing down and having certain materials that we work with and not being able to get any material in the world and working with beetle kill because that's what's here now and that's what can be used sustainably. I think there's some kind of, I don't quite know the right word, it feels important. And so, yeah, thank you. And I feel like there's so many people that have helped me learn that.
Annalouiza
Yeah, it's a paradigm shift all over for us. I mean, we will run out of beetle kill and it's going to be okay. And we will figure out like, what is another source of something that we could use to bury our dead and it's going to be okay. We don't need to like pull up floorboards and people's kitchen counters for that exotic beetle kill, right? Like we have to make do with what we have and treasure all of it.
Wakil
Yeah, there's a sense of connectedness there. We are where we are and acceptance, connectedness and acceptance to what's here on the land where we live. So I love that. I think that's really important for all of us and all of our listeners to think about where you are. There's probably similar choices you could make about what's available, what's on the land around you. I love that. Thank you. Great.
Great, a lot of really good deep thought here. So we talked about challenges. What kind of things do you need to be supported in your work?
Annalouiza
And, you know, honestly, so when we ask that question, it's generally for folks who are dealing day to day with death and dying. And your work is still heavy, perhaps, you know, maybe you had thoughts about the skier, the young man who passed, but, you know, and you're painting death urns. So how does it still give you joy and abundance of life as you're doing this work?
Diana
I can start.
Diana
Yeah, I, the question is what's the support that we need? Yeah, so I'm also a mental health therapist in my career, so I do both. And I think for me, it's really community and making sure that I'm connecting with the supportive folks in my life, that I'm connecting with nature, with animals, because both of the or the different types of work that I'm doing in these different spheres have to do with healing and withholding space. And so making sure that I'm replenishing myself as much as I can. And yeah, there's so much happening in the world. I think it's important to stay connected to one another and to know we're not alone.
Lately, I've been volunteering on a sheep farm, so I'm getting to shepherd and I'm loving that. It keeps me grounded. So yeah. Yeah, and really finding the beauty in transition and in creativity and applying creativity and art to the final transition. I think there is and can be great joy in that.
Wakil
Wakil I love it. Shepherd. That's beautiful.
Annalouiza
Beautiful.
Annalouiza
Yes.
Wakil
Luc, did you have any thoughts on the kind of things that help you?
Luc
Yeah, well, for me, I feel like in many ways, I'm kind of separated from, you know, the direct dealing directly with death of these people, you know, of course, I'm, I'm working with clients who are directly connected to that often.
And, but I think the thing that supports me in the work, and I've already kind of mentioned it, is the fact that they have so much gratitude for the work that's gone into these caskets and urns. So I think that's where most of my support does come from, is just the feeling of gratification that I get from working with these families.
And you know, there are like a said occasionally there are certain cases that are more poignant, more tragic, I guess. And that's when I'll talk with my wife or even my kids a little bit about that. And that's the support I get for that.
Annalouiza
That's great. I'm glad that you are getting connected with somebody and sharing the breadth of this work and stories, right?
So what frightens each of you at the, about the end of life? What comes up? What frightens you?
Diana
I mean, for me, I get collective with that. And I think a lot about climate crisis, all of the environmental and racial injustices and the type of, yeah, there's a lot of scary things happening, a lot of traumatic death happening. And I think that scares me and finding ways that we can continue to ground and root together in community to face these things. And, be resourced together. There is definitely fear that comes up for me and yeah, I think there's more I would want to say about that, but it's not coming right this moment. But it feels like when I get that question, the collective sense really comes in for me.
Luc
Yeah, and I think that's, I do have a lot of fears about what's going to happen to our world, what's going to happen to our society, to the environment and all this. And I tend to be maybe a naive optimist and I think things are going to get better. So I think maybe my biggest fear about death is not getting to see a lot of that happen. A lot of the things that I think are gonna happen that I feel like in some ways are happening, at least in our, our collective mindset, you know, like I feel like a hundred less than a hundred years ago, we came up with a UN declaration of human rights and just that idea was an amazing thing. And then, you know, Aldo Leopold around the same time is talking about a land ethic and these ideas, I feel like they're slowly percolating into our collective consciousness and darn it, I wanna be there. I wanna be there and see it happen. But it's a slow, slow process, isn't it? So maybe when I die, I can just get hooked up to something that will let me get little podcasts about what's happening in the world. Yeah, yeah, that's all I need is, well, I hope it's good news.
Annalouiza
Little news updates from the world. Yeah.
Yeah, that's actually a really a great reason to want to become a ghost so that we can actually still like participate. Yeah.
Wakil
Yeah, check it out. Check it out. You know, from what we've talked about already, there's a saying that we're planting seeds in the forest, that the work we do every day is even though we won't see those trees and we won't get the fruit off of them, we're doing the work because we know the forest will continue to grow. So there is a beauty to that and a beauty to your recognition that one of the big fears I have is I won't get to see this come to fruition or whatever happens, you know, we've accepting whatever might happen, but being willing to keep doing that work. So you're doing beautiful work and I appreciate that. Yeah.
Annalouiza
Yes, I love the work that is coming from your hearts. And what, no, go ahead, Dee.
Diana
Yeah, sorry, I was just gonna say, I think I'm loving all of that and feeling like the piece I would then add now that I've received everything you just said, Luc, is I think the important things, the importance for me in the little things, like the little step I can take today, the ways that I can use the resources I have the privilege, excuse me, the privilege I have in my social locations to make a difference. And taking it just one step at a time, like each stepping stone along the way. And yeah, I don't know, that feels powerful.
Annalouiza
Yes.
Diana
What you were just saying feels really powerful.
Annalouiza
I love this little bundle of people. Wakil, should we do some poetry?
Wakil
Well, we could ask the last question about if there's anything that you wish we had asked you. There's always, that's always a good question just in case there's anything you would like to share that you didn't get a chance to share.
Diana
Hmm.
Luc
Well, I could say I wish that more people knew about the option for green burial. And actually, I used to work with a little group in Boulder in which we were trying to get more green burial options. And one of the areas I was looking into was whether we could get some designated areas of open space on which people could be buried. And people weren't very receptive to that, even though there's some precedent, I think, in Texas.
I'd love to see that on a national level, the national forests having designated areas on which people could pay a very small fee. And you'd kind of mark where the body would go. And there'd be regulations about how deep and where you can put things and what they can be in, even if it's nothing, like not even a casket at all.
You could really, I feel like you could create a situation which people had free, didn't have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for burials. You could have, maybe it could be need-based and some people could pay a fee for it and that would help pay for all the people that can't pay the fee.
Annalouiza
That is so beautiful, Luc. And just because our mother Earth created these bodies and going back into the Earth shouldn't cost people money to return to her, our mother, right? Like it just seems so silly that somebody's charging for that.
Wakil
Yeah. Yeah. There is, in Washington state, there is a forest that is set aside for green burial and, and the, teramation organization. So will take, if you don't want all the left, the remains, will take your remains there and spread them. They're allowed to do that. So we've got a couple of places like that. And I know there are other parts of the country that I've heard about that are doing that. So, one of my questions to you was whether or not you knew of a national organization that was working on this for our audience to be able to tap into if there's anything online. And I might have some sources I'll look, but...
Annalouiza
I have some sources too actually from a book that I've read.
Wakil
Yeah, so we'll post that on our podcast notes, but I love that inspiration or that feeling that this needs to be more common. This needs to be something that people know about and that they don't have to spend thousands of dollars to put yourselves in concrete and pump yourself full of, you know, chemicals to make sure your body never goes away. Yeah.
Luc
Yeah.
Luc
Yeah, and I know, I think the Green Burial Council is an organization working on that, on many aspects of green burial, but then there may be others as well.
Wakil
Dee, is there anything you wish we would have asked you?
Diana
No, I think you asked everything. I appreciate what you just added about Green Burial. And I think what I would add is the reason that I do what I do is so that everyone feels that permission to paint your own casket, paint an urn for a loved one. Really bring your creativity to this. Everybody can do it. And it's the process that matters.
You know, it's not about being a good artist. And so what does good artist even mean? Everyone's a good artist in my view. And I think, yeah, I just want to empower everybody to bring their creativity to their life in that way, when and if it feels right.
Annalouiza
That's so beautiful.
Wakil
If you get a chance, one of our early podcasts was with Bodhi B, who is the funeral director and owner of a natural burial funeral home in Maui. And maybe one of the only nonprofits that I've ever heard of that does funerals. But he has beautiful pictures on his website, which is called Doorway into Light of people doing their own work on and shrouds. And they do a burial at sea.
So yeah, this is something that's going on and so glad to be able to meet you folks who are doing this work. It's so important. Thank you. So yeah, do we want to move to the poem? Luc, would you like to read it first? And maybe Diane Dee, if you'd like to, you can read it after he's done.
Luc
Sure, I'll give it a read here. This poem is called A Work for Poets and it was actually, my brother found this, but it's by George Mackay Brown, a Scottish poet. And we used it kind of as the, him as the muse for a film we made in Scotland, which is about death and climate change and among other things.
So here it is, a work for poets
to have carved on the days of our vanity,
a sun, a ship, a star, a cornstalk.
Also a few marks from an ancient forgotten time
a child may read that not far from the stone,
a well might open for wayfarers.
Here is a work for poets,
carve the ruins,
then be content with silence.
Wakil
Wow, wow. Love that.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
Diana
I feel complete with Luc's reading. Yeah.
Wakil
Okay, sounds good. Yeah, that was very beautiful. Thank you, Luc. Well, thank you so much, Luc and Diane Dee. It's been a real pleasure and I really have learned a lot and I'm looking forward to seeing those pictures. And anything else that you want to share?
Luc
Well, I just want to say thank you both so much for providing this podcast and I hope it spurs more conversations like the one we just had.
Wakil
Yeah.
Annalouiza
Yeah, I know. It does delight me to meet so many people doing all different kinds of death support. So I'm so happy that you're here today.
Wakil
Yeah, we're so blessed.
Diana
Yeah, I want to thank you both too. This has been really meaningful to have this conversation and also thank you to you Luc for, I guess it's almost a decade partnership now. So yeah, thank you everybody.
Annalouiza
Yes.
Wakil
Wow, very, very good. All right, thank you.
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