Speaking with Death Doulas - with Phoenix Destiny and Myra Daniel

In this episode, we spoke with two new friends we met at a recent death care conference in Seattle. They are both Death Doulas and some of their cohort will share their inspiration and work in a special premium video episode called “What is a Death Doula?” We hope you’ll subscribe to enjoy that and other premium content.
Phoenix and Myra share their personal experiences with death and how it has shaped their lives and careers. They discuss the importance of community, the challenges they face in their work, and the profound impact of early encounters with death.
The conversation highlights the role of death doulas in providing support and care during end-of-life transitions, emphasizing the need for compassion and understanding in navigating grief and loss. They explore the importance of community in creative work, the practices that sustain their energy, their perspectives on death and legacy, the role of storytelling in healing, and the need to normalize discussions around death and life cycles. They emphasize the interconnectedness of their experiences and the significance of sharing stories to foster understanding and support.

From Myra
https://thresholdchoir.org/webform/ma...
https://www.modamyra.org/
https://inelda.org/

From Phoenix
Personal Website: www.cosmikplayground.com
Pacific Death Doula Collaborative:
https://www.pacificdeathdoulacollaborative.com/
Ceremony/ Integration Collective: http://www.medicinewecarry.org

Transcript

Wakil (00:01.25)
Welcome everyone. In this episode, we are so grateful to speak with two new friends that we met at a recent death care conference in Seattle. They are both death doulas and some of their cohort will share their inspiration and work in a special premium video that we're going to call, What is a Death Doula? We hope you'll subscribe so that you can enjoy that and other premium content. 

So Phoenix is an alchemist, change agent, and spiritual midwife, also known as Freedom Doula a term she coined in 2019. She's passionate about both personal freedom and collective liberation. Her practice is approached from a multidisciplinary lens, weaving ideologies from areas such as transpersonal, depth and cultural psychology. She operates daily from the guiding principle as life as ceremony (Love that!) which acknowledges the sanctity of our life journey and the integral component of community witnessing as gateway to transformation.

Annalouiza (01:03.688)
And we are also hosting Myra Daniel, who is also a death doula and folk artist who lives in Los Angeles, California. Myra Daniel is a death doula and folk artist living in Los Angeles, California. She is a Moda Myra and founding member of the Death Care Collective of the Death Care Collective Pacific Death Doula Collaborative, a group of death care providers working together all along the West Coast. She provides end-of-life care, photography, and music, as well as legacy project planning and services. Myra works with families and after death care, helping the dying and their loved ones navigate end-of-life challenges. Thank you so much and welcome Myra and Phoenix.

Wakil (03:04.044)
Yeah, so good to have you both. Glad you're here. We always like to start out by just asking when you first became aware of death. So why don't we start with Phoenix and have you just give us an answer, you know, what you want to talk about with that. And then we'll let Myra tell us what her first experience was death was.

Myra Daniel (03:04.77)
Thank you.

Phoenix (03:06.971)
Thank you.

Phoenix (03:26.673)
Sure. My first experience with death was with my, I guess he would be considered my great uncle. He was my favorite uncle in the whole world. And I remember, you know, not really having an idea he died of cancer. And I first became cognizant of what death was when I saw his body laying in for the wake there was something that was so profound to me. I think I was probably, was, you know, an adolescent, no more than 10. But I remember just watching and just the eeriness, but the beauty, the bittersweetness of the peacefulness that I imagined that he must feel. 

And so it perplexed me and it haunted me, but it also like captivated me at the same time because I didn't know what to make of that. And from that, that point on, you know, it's something that has always been a part of my, my psyche, my spiritual development. I used to have dreams about it as a child. And one of my biggest fears when I was younger was like dying in my sleep because I thought I would be like my great uncle. But that has, you know, been a seed that really started and has blossomed into something. So much of a driving force in my life at present.

Annalouiza (04:57.508)
beautiful.

Wakil (04:58.168)
Beautiful. Thank you. And Myra, what about you?

Myra Daniel (05:03.554)
Well, you I think a lot of people first learn about death because of their pets. You know, it's way a lot of children first come in contact with it. And we had pets the whole time I was growing up. and we lived a lot of times in very rural areas. So death is kind of just something that happens. I had a collie that was hit by my school bus that was picking me up. So...

Annalouiza (05:29.922)
no!

Myra Daniel (05:31.306)
An entire busload of school children watched my collie get hit by the bus they were in. And that was the first time I think that I really grappled with this concept that death is a large thing, that it impacts other people. So I was about five then, but I think truly when I truly like, would say I experienced a first death was my grandfather passing, who was like a father figure to me. 

And I found myself, you know, sitting on the porch steps comforting my uncle, you know, that was just my natural role even then. So I think, yeah, I think pets is probably the first place I encountered death and started to understand the enormity of it. But in terms of like experiencing a death, I would say it was my grandfather.

Wakil (06:25.752)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:26.936)
Wow, yes, pets and family members seem to be our first connective story to death, isn't it? Over and over. 

Wakil (06:34.828)
Yeah, over and over.

Myra Daniel (06:35.277)
Yeah.

Annalouiza
So each of you, if you could tell us how these stories of death have impacted the story of your life. What has become of you because of that initial awareness? 

Myra Daniel (06:51.288)
Phoenix you go.

Phoenix (06:56.298)
I'm OK with ping-ponging you can go.

Myra Daniel (06:58.616)
Well, I think so the way that I came into being a doula is you know, I I grew up I'm a Gen X er I grew up in the 80s. I was a teenager and in the early 90s in college and I think that our generation was just kind of desperate and displaced I experienced a lot of people around me who committed suicide. So I went through a lot of suicides and it filled me with rage and I had to find a place to put the rage. 

And so you fast forward years and years later and I'm working with the unhoused in Las Vegas. As a photographer, I was doing pro bono work. So I was working with various organizations in Las Vegas who worked with people who were unhoused, at risk going to their various events and doing a lot of stuff on my own, just going out and talking to people, taking pictures and stuff like that. And what I found was there was also quite a bit of intersection, suicide is happening on the streets, but also just illness, just really desperate, desperate situations of untreated illness, whether that's mental health or actual physical disabilities, physical ailments like cancer, people are untreated and left untreated and nobody cares. And that filled me with rage. So I think honestly, the way I transmuted that into becoming a death doula was I didn't want to put my rage somewhere. What I wanted to do instead was find a way to turn it into care so that people would not

Annalouiza (08:37.347)
Hmm.

Wakil (08:52.119)
Yeah.

Myra Daniel (08:55.048)
So that I could do something, even if it was small things, that contributed to maybe they'll have a slightly better day today. And over time, watching the different people who were dealing with things like cancer and MS while living on the streets made me start to really think about how can I provide care for people who are dying in a more fundamental and physical way, you know, in a way that actually did something, you know. Taking a picture is great because it can raise awareness. But I wanted to be actively in the work.

Annalouiza (09:29.134)
Right?

Wakil (09:32.802)
Yeah, perfect. Thank you. Beautiful. Phoenix, what's your story?

Annalouiza (09:33.924)
Beautiful, yep.

Phoenix (09:37.243)
But yes, I'm ready and I got chills. So many points, Myra. And I think I see so many threads of connectivity, which is really beautiful. And again, and why we were drawn together in the first place. Like you, I grew up and I think something that really was impactful was witnessing like premature death.

I lived in the inner city and so like one of the most impactful things that I saw was we had a neighbor across the street who was murdered over $5. My mom had students who were murdered and killed. I had friends. And same thing, I was devastated living in the inner city and witnessing profound grief in these communities with no way to process them.

And so again, as a child who grew up in the middle of the LA riots, I witnessed also a lot of other... Columbine. There were all of these things that were also happening collectively and on a larger scale that really impacted like my idea of what it means to be in care of community. And so that, you know, really is how I channeled my social activism work. was a part of many grassroots organizations, really where we envisioned our whole line was about how do we go and the line from just surviving to thriving and how do we use our actions as an expression of our love for humanity instead of just being angry. So I got burned out in that realm, obviously.

It became, I had to leave that work. It was devastating for me being on the front lines and protesting every week for something new. And I got sick physically. And so I'm like, this is not helpful. How can I be more helpful? And so it was really something that galvanized me more than I realized was the pandemic, the global pandemic and the civil uprisings. That is really what made me say I need to channel this energy into caring for the community because we are not as a society very apt in dealing with death. So these deaths of desperation with the opioid crisis and all of those things really propelled me to finish my degree in school, but also that's what made me turn inward.

Annalouiza (12:09.709)
Right?

Wakil (12:09.922)
Right? Yeah.

Phoenix (12:25.869)
And to answer the soul calling of doing end of life work as well.

Wakil (12:32.135)
Wow, talk about chills, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, both of you. Just really thank you so much.

Annalouiza (12:36.174)
Both of you.

Myra Daniel (12:39.948)
Isn't she fabulous?

Wakil (12:42.264)
Yeah, we tend to find lots of fabulous folks on here. Thank you so much.

Phoenix (12:44.078)
Myra? I'm like, who are you?

Annalouiza (12:46.602)
Ahahaha!

Phoenix (12:48.977)
Stop it! Sorry, Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:56.056)
We do. We always say we're the luckiest people. Every Monday we're like, it's the most amazing time talking to them.

Wakil (13:00.353)
it's so fun. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Myra Daniel (13:01.784)
Yeah, what a great job you guys have, honestly. I listened to the episode you did with Dr. Roher, Dr. Megan Roher. So good. 

Wakil (13:10.098)
Yeah, he's amazing.

Annalouiza (13:13.988)
Keep listening. There's some that we're like, we get off and we're like, whoa.

Wakil (13:18.242)
Whoa, what happened? How could there be so many cool people in the world?

Annalouiza (13:22.5)
There's so many more people I know

Myra Daniel (13:24.152)
There are, it's what we have to hang on to because there are people who care, right? It's so.

Wakil (13:26.711)
Yeah, especially, especially now. Yeah. We were just talking about how on November 7th, I think we have a call and it's going to be one of our hardest ones to do because we're going to be either weeping or who knows what we're going to be doing at that point. You know, it's going to be a tough time for everybody. So we like the next question we like to get to. And this is something you could both talk about. We can start with Phoenix again. What is talk about your current role, your current work, what you're doing and kind of what, you know, because specifically, we know each of you are doulas. You're probably doing other work as well. when we do the one specifically on doula, we want to kind of hear from people. Because each of you are kind of approaching it from a different perspective, I think, perhaps. So yeah, talk a little more about your current work and your perspective on it and what you're specializing in, if you will, or what you're really inspired by.

Phoenix (14:21.871)
Yeah, thank you. You know, it's so interesting. Death at one time was something that I thought was very separate and apart from me and I was terrified of it. But I have found that this work and just my relationship with death has been the great unifier of all my hearts. I'm like, wow, this is really profound. So I'm currently a graduate student for my doctoral degree in transpersonal psychology and one of my, I'm just barely starting, but my work is about rites of passages and preparation for physical death. That's what my dissertation will be on. it's been very much informed by my own experience, but also what I've witnessed from people in my community and things like that. 

But currently, my I'm juggling a lot of hats right now. So I'm an intern doing field work as a therapist for children in elementary school. I work on a pure and warm line doing crisis work as well. And then I have my business, the Cosmic Playground, which is again, it's like one-to-one coaching and sessions, but also it's death doula work as well. And so it's been interesting, although I am new in this field of death, I do the work. 

I'm still finding her. I'm really trying to figure out like, what is she doing? Like, where is she? And the way that she's been showing me has really been, especially in the area of grief processing and holding that. So really companioning for family members who have lost and who are bereaved is really where I'm finding my sweet spot is and building community around that. And also ceremony.

I think we experience a bunch of little deaths before we actually physically die. And I think, again, the rites of passage is important to mark those moments of transition from moving from one stage to the next. And I think the more that we engage in this practice of ceremony and celebration, recognizing that, hey, we did it, we moved on, that really helps us to better come to terms and have a better sense of satisfaction knowing that we are on the right path and doing what we need to do and finding satisfaction by being witnessed in community with other people as well. So.

Annalouiza (16:58.34)
Beautiful.

Wakil (16:58.422)
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, thank you for doing that work. Yeah, I agree that when I think you said this earlier when we were talking that that kind of gets the muscle memory, if you will, so that when whenever transitions happen, you get better and better and better at it right up to the day you're dealing with your own your end of life or with other people's end of life. You've got that that sense of this is ceremony. This is ritual. This is important and...

Phoenix (17:01.997)
Thank you.

Wakil (17:27.84)
It makes it, I wouldn't say it makes it easier ever, but it makes it more like part of you, a part of yourself that is accepted. Yeah. Acceptance, maybe better acceptance.

Annalouiza (17:38.574)
Well, it almost feels like it's, or like you metabolize the big deaths in a sweeter way because you've already done that work with smaller deaths, right? So there's already.

Myra Daniel (17:51.325)
it becomes organic, becomes an organic function.

Wakil (17:54.294)
Yeah, yeah. So, Myra, wha about you.

Annalouiza (17:57.944)
Yes, Mira.

Myra Daniel (18:00.728)
So like everybody in LA, like you mentioned, I'm a hyphenate, definitely. I started Moda Myra as a photography business. And when I decided to become a doula, I was really thinking about all the things, all the hats I've worn over the years. I was a legal secretary for a long, long time. And I've spent a lot of time in offices prior to deciding, you know what, I want to be a photographer and taking classes and stuff and becoming a photographer back in the day. I'm old, so this is over a long course of time, obviously. 

But right now, what it has become is I'm a death doula who will do end of life photography, and that can take many forms. I will also, because I'm a seamstress, I will sew for you for your legacy project if you'd like, a quilt or if you would like me to make you a shroud, know, whatever kind of sewing comes up. And I will help you with any and all forms of paperwork because paperwork is something that, you know, second nature, right? And I'm a musician. So I will help you with music for your ceremony or I can record a song for you if there's a special song you love. So I wear a lot of hats, but I wanted to find a way to put them all into the work of helping people at the end of their lives. So that's kind of what it's become, an amalgamation. Yeah.

Wakil (19:31.79)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:32.684)
I love that. And I feel like we're all doing that, actually. Like, all of us are trying to figure out our way to, you know, support and show our gifts and, you know, be in the capitalist world. So, yeah.

Myra Daniel (19:36.47)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't ever anticipate that this is the main way to pay the bills, but I don't want that to be a reason that I can't do it. So I would like for those other things to be there just simply so that I can keep doing this work, you know.

Annalouiza (19:55.224)
Right.

Wakil (20:01.602)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's important. Thank you. Yeah, we all have talked a lot about how do we live in this world where we'd like to give all this away because we care about people, but there's, you know, bills to pay. So kids to raise and yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:16.686)
Yeah.

Myra Daniel (20:17.302)
Yeah, the unfortunate. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:20.654)
So with each of you in the different, like the myriad of hats that we are wearing, how are you challenged in specifically, I guess, in the death care work that you are helping to provide for folks? What is it that you see is difficult?

Myra Daniel (20:42.24)
I think it's my turn to go first, isn't it? darn it. I think honestly the biggest challenge is finding your people, finding your communities, getting your foot in the door, finding your clients. It's a really difficult part of becoming a doula.

Once you are a doula and that starts to happen, I think it takes a long time, but as it starts to happen and you start to get more regular clientele, I think the biggest challenge for me is, you know, you're always walking that line between being, it's a very intimate experience. You're dealing with people who are perhaps uncovering demons they've never faced before. You're sitting at the bedside while they talk about things like deep regret or you're dealing within a family structure that is incredibly non-functional and you're trying to navigate those waters. So it can trigger you, I think, because everybody walks into everything that they do with their own baggage, right? 

So I think one of the biggest challenges is making sure that you are walking alongside them and not in the muck because you they cannot throw you a life raft. So I think it's really important that you are the life raft. And so all the work that you have to do for within yourself, right? And within your community to make sure you're shored up, you know, to make sure that you're the one that is lifting and holding, you know, as opposed to, whoa, I'm just going all metaphor today. But, you know, you know, you want to walk alongside and I'm

Wakil (22:21.346)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:30.174)
Yeah.

Myra Daniel (22:34.096)
There's a reason, ENELDA is where I got my doula certificate. And I think there's a reason that's one of their kind of signals to the world is to walk alongside. And I've really taken that to heart. I think it's incredibly important. And I think it's that ongoing work that you have to do as a doula to make sure you are not wading into the mud, you know, because it's not like you just decide how you feel about things and that's it, you know, every single death is different. So

Yeah, I think it's a big challenge.

Wakil (23:05.602)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Well said. Phoenix?

Phoenix (23:12.325)
Yeah, I love this question. I've got lots of gripes. I think this is an industry that is also like running against a time clock in every sense of the word, you know, with clients with, and I recognize sometimes that again, time is not the enemy at all. But I think at times you might feel constrained by time.

Annalouiza (23:16.002)
Ha ha ha ha

Wakil (23:16.15)
Hahaha

Myra Daniel (23:16.74)
Hahaha!

Phoenix (23:41.745)
The way that you have to move so quickly and instinctively in this to serve people effectively is really something that's really interesting. I think what I've run into is the disjointed nature that Myra was talking about, this disjointed nature of systems that we're navigating between all the time, whether it be medical, whether it be societal there are not really a lot of resources for people. You know, like we said, we want to provide affordable care, but do a lot of people have disposable income that they can provide? So how are we supplementing that? You know, insurance, all of these things. and again, the medical industry has a lot of, you know, like we've run into a lot of blockages in that sense when it really could be so simple if there was this like I guess integration of our practice into that field for sure.

Myra Daniel (24:42.68)
There should be a symbiosis, right? A symbiosis, right? Like, yeah.

Phoenix (25:03.761)
Say that again? As symbiote, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And so again, I do believe that there's an extreme amount of work that you have to do as a doula yourself because again, each and every death that you go through, every process that you're experiencing, you arrive new, different every time. And sometimes there's not always the space and the time to integrate all of those lessons because of how quickly you're running against something. 

And so I really do think having the community and the spaces to actively process those things, like we really don't walk alone either when we're serving nor when we are like, you know, tending to each other in community as well. I have found that since joining our group and our collaborative, I feel so much more generative. That's what I was saying. This work is so much more life affirming because of how we are all working together and how we can contribute together versus when I was on my own. My practice was stagnant.

I really got overburdened because I'm like, really have to do everything. After graduating, I really felt like I was at a loss and so much of my energy was scattered, not focusing on my skillset, but like trying to make a name for myself so that I could get business. And so there was just so much, again, like I said, I didn't feel like I had enough time to even dedicate to my craft. So having that way of sharing the burden with other people, to do that work for you, that's really all my dream is, is just to keep creating this because it's better for everyone. Yeah.

Wakil (26:35.052)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (26:36.441)
Yeah, and I really appreciate that as a what was it you're you're an alchemist and that's what it's essentially alchemy, right? Like we take our experiences and our feelings or emotions, everything that's just kind of bubbling and we bring them to the larger community to help us like transform or, you know, mutate that into whatever it needs to be. And or if it needs to be composted, it goes down to so.

Wakil (27:01.634)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:02.328)
Yeah, the alchemy of this work is really essential for our well-being and our gifts out into the world.

Wakil (27:09.356)
Yeah,

Myra Daniel (27:09.666)
Yeah, Phoenix, that made me tear up. That was, that's, it's so true, isn't it? When we have our meetings, you guys, my gosh, we always, we come away with it so full and so energized. Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:20.268)
Yeah, I love that. You know, I have to say I was at a hospice center for seven years and that was one of the things that we did not have. And I mean, maybe it's changed at this particular hospice, but we were never I mean, we were told like because of HIPAA, we were never allowed to talk about any of these interactions we had with any of these people that who we served. Right. And and so there was never anybody to like talk about it with.

Wakil (27:44.334)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (27:50.564)
So you're like they made very clear like you're not going to talk to your husband about this or your friends or you know, like every year they would drill this in and it just feels like what a, what a poverty mindset too, right? Because these are gifts that we keep pulling out to give forward. All of us need to hear stories in order to, yeah, get, you know, our craft can be honed and without sharing, we don't know.

Myra Daniel (28:15.65)
Yes.

Annalouiza (28:18.732)
You know, we're all inventing a wheel essentially every time if we're kind of working with clients in a bubble. So that is such a gift. I'm really hoping that that actually moves bigger to bigger spaces, right?

Wakil (28:33.772)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm really glad you guys brought that to us. Cause I think that's really important. I think when I worked as a hospice chaplain, that was the work. One of the biggest jobs we did was give people away somebody to talk to, right? The people, the staff to talk, somebody to talk to as much as talking with patients. We spent time with the staff, know, you know, because they needed that outlet and you can't get it very, and it's often the case that HIPAA or whatever, they want to let you talk about it elsewhere. 

And you guys kind of segued nicely into, cause that's, that's a good example of our next question is about how you support yourselves and how you support your energy in this. And a good example is you've got that group that you're working with. That's very cool. Are there other practices that you have that you, I mean, you can talk about that some more if you'd like too, but other practices maybe that help you stay centered, stay grounded in this work.

Annalouiza (29:10.99)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Myra Daniel (29:26.434)
Phoenix's turn.

Phoenix (29:27.217)
So community, community, community is really like my anchor. And I think about that as I'm aging, as I'm growing into aging, think multi-generational relationships are so like healing to me. Having, you know, this like multi-directional like relationships, being a mentor for young ones, but also being mentored back by them.

And also vice versa with elders. Again, it's that same thing with rites of passage. I think we are not training ourselves and we are not training people up into these next stages and these relationships provide a pathway in order to do that. So, building and growing and sustaining community is a one, is a really big thing for me. But also for me, again, spirit is not something that is separate from me. It's just like, it's everything and it anchors me. 

And so, you know, I find ways to bring spirit and to be thankful for spirit in everything that I do. So when I wake up in the morning, it's like a prayer to my ordee, which is like my spiritual head. It's I pray to the water when I'm in the shower so that I'm a clear vessel and that I am poured into every day and that I'm a source. I clear my space. take spiritual baths every week to provide myself, you know, like with anointing, I do ceremony for myself and for my friends. So it's really not something that it's really just kind of again, like the ceremony, it's a way of life. And I'm kind of, again, I think I used to make it really complicated. You know, thinking everything has to be formalized, but spirit does not ask that of you. So I feel that my cup is constantly being filled in these small ways. And again, I just

Annalouiza (31:03.246)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (31:08.494)
Yeah

Phoenix (31:19.695)
I'm so grateful to have family and being able to hold them close and be in communion with them as well. And also just making sure that I can go to places like just yesterday, I think I was just like, need, I hear the ocean calling. I didn't do anything but sit in my car and just, you know, just sit there and read for a minute. But that was like instantly like a recharge of something that I needed. So, and then I have my cat, my lovely cat.

Wakil (31:35.022)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah, yeah, I really love that. And I feel that for me, it's something that I use as my one of my spiritual practices to it. So that breath by breath, every breath is a new prayer. And that's the way you can stay. It's not like something you have to set up a time to go pray or set up a time to go meditate. Just every day, every moment is another breath. And there's nothing that isn't God. 

Phoenix (31:48.758)
being in communion with him too. Yes.

Wakil
That's the... It's all God and it's all surrounding us all the time. So Myra, what have you got on that?

Myra Daniel (32:22.988)
What you're saying though is, you know, it's that the mountains are calling and I must go, you know, or Phoenix talking about the beaches. That happens to me all the time. I just go to the beach or I go to the mountains because I just need that, you know. But I mean, in terms of just sustaining ourselves so that we can be renewed and come into the work fresh.

Wakil (32:27.597)
Yeah.

Myra Daniel (32:45.514)
Yes, definitely one of the reasons Phoenix and I are both founding members of the collaborative and one of the key reasons for that collaborative was to provide support to each other. We have somebody, other folks who are doing the same work as us, who we can talk and share stories with in a very, very private way and still glean information from each other and emotional support, professional support. But we also both Phoenix and I belong to the Threshold Choir which is, are you guys familiar with Threshold? Yeah, good, Phoenix, I'm just staring at you right now, just FYI. You're my anchor today. But the Threshold Choir, since you guys know what it is, we both belong to that. sing it. One of the jobs of Threshold is to sing at bedside. But it's really those rehearsals are a communion for us. So when we go to those rehearsals, we always come away with that sense of communion and wholeness that is quite beautiful. But for myself personally, it is definitely my recharging is definitely music and I'm a creative. So generally it's a creative pursuit and my heart and soul is my home.

Wakil (33:42.766)
Mmm.

Myra Daniel (34:07.704)
And my children who are 27 and 24, they spend a lot of time with me. They're wonderful. And you know, I have a husky, I have a dachshund and I have a cat. So I mean, you and I'm quite the introvert in reality. So I will literally not leave my house for four days sometimes because I'm, you know, recording a song and hanging out with my kids and my pets. You know, home is very recharging for me.

Wakil (34:31.36)
Ha ha ha ha.

Annalouiza (34:33.838)
Great. Yeah, that's wonderful.

Wakil (34:35.918)
Yeah.

Phoenix (34:37.765)
She has a stunning voice by the way, Myra. I hope you can share. Stunning voice. Yes.

Wakil (34:42.486)
Nice. Yeah. We have a, there's an episode you should check out with Kate Schuyler, which is, she's, she's a writer for the Threshold Choir and she's been doing it in Oregon. So, yeah, so check that one out. But yeah, great.

Myra Daniel (34:57.176)
I will.

Annalouiza (34:58.818)
Yeah. So each of you, what do you feel, excuse me, what frightens you most about the end of life?

Myra Daniel (35:08.748)
Did you say frightens?

Annalouiza (35:10.19)
Yes, frightens.

Myra Daniel (35:12.632)
Whose turn is it?

Annalouiza (35:14.402)
Myra, you just go.

Myra Daniel (35:18.433)
I'm always gonna say Phoenix, you go first. You know, honestly, not a lot frightens me about it. Really, I've been in death spaces since I was a child in a lot of ways. So I've seen a lot of different ways that people die as well. So I don't know that I have a lot of fear around death at this point, but I do worry about some things. You know, I worry about what my children will be left with in terms of what legacy have I left in them? You know, they, you know, so I worry about stuff like that, I think, but I don't have fear around it. And honestly, they're, they're grown adults now. And I, I see the humans that they are. And they're, they're going to be okay. You know, I feel, I feel really solid about our communication that they know how loved they are.

So I don't know that I have fears really. just, think the continual thing is the quest, the quest to leave behind good, to be a net positive on the world. So it's more like a drive. It's a drive. Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:24.92)
Right.

Wakil (36:27.885)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:28.196)
It's beautiful.

Wakil (36:30.701)
Yeah, yeah, love that. Very, very good. Yeah, I have kids and I have kids in that age range myself. And I feel the same way they I know that they they know what's right and wrong and what's good and bad. And they know what love is about and how to be beloved people and compassionate people. And yeah, I've done all I can do. And if it's time for me to go tomorrow, then they'll know what to do. They'll be OK.

Annalouiza (36:36.95)
Yeah.

Myra Daniel (36:43.159)
Yeah, they'll be okay. You know, my paperwork's in order. It'll be fine.

Annalouiza (37:00.505)
Yeah.

Wakil (37:03.456)
Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, Phoenix, anything you want to share about that?

Phoenix (37:10.993)
Yeah, I'm also a mom to a 19 year old and so naturally a lot of my questions are about like legacy. That's a really big thing but Similar I'm like I am so in awe. I love my girl. She's incredible and I I know I really am I'm just like really proud of this human and I really I feel that settled miss again I mean she's in college right now and again, I tell her all the time. I'm like there's a piece of me that's out there in the world, you know, that it's really hard to be a mom and to allow you to live. But also I always feel this, I feel this piece, this piece and the subtleness knowing who she is and that she's navigating in the world and allowing her to come to me now has been really instructional in that way of making me to feel more secure in her being okay. 

So, think the biggest thing is leaving life unfinished, doing things like, yeah, I don't want to leave this life unfinished at all. And so that has been my driving, again, purpose and pursuit. Those things that terrify me, I have to turn toward them, which is literally why I got, I'm here.

Wakil (38:12.302)
Mm.

Annalouiza (38:12.814)
Yeah.

Phoenix (38:32.481)
But I mean, really those things that I was terrified to do, those things that keep calling and keep beckoning at some point, I'm like, I'm going to have to investigate this further. just leaving no turn, I mean, no stone unturned in this life and doing what I'm meant to do here to, you know, to leave this world better than I found it when I arrived. 

And really my whole thing with my like, my doctoral process, what we're saying is like knowing that I contributed something to the human repository of knowledge is really all that I could hope to do. And if that means, you know, leaving a legacy of love and the hearts of the children and the people and this clients and things that I serve, then so be it.

Wakil (39:23.394)
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Very good.

Annalouiza (39:23.748)
That's wonderful. Yeah.

So lovely. Yes, Wakil?

Wakil (39:31.008)
Yeah, we kind of need to sum things up here. so we always like to finish with asking if there's anything that you wish we had asked you, that you'd like to share with us, anything that we didn't ask that you'd like us to know about.

Myra Daniel (39:50.956)
You know, no, but there is something we were saying a while back and it did bookmark in my head. We were talking about, was it Phoenix? Were you the one that was talking about the storytelling? Who was talking about storytelling? Somebody was talking about storytelling. And I was, and we were also in the vein of, you know, the other things that we do besides being doulas. you know, I think one of, in that moment I realized one of the, driving factors behind the work I do as a doula, like working with people on their legacy projects and things of that nature, probably is very much in fact, due to the fact that I'm a folk artist and I am all about storytelling and archetypes and song telling is what I call it. You sing a song that's telling stories. And so I think a lot of the work of being a doula is helping people tell their stories. And I think I just made connected that thread right now, know, that kind of through line of, you know, it's just everybody needs to be heard. And it's so precious to me that I get to help them be a conduit, you know.

Annalouiza (40:50.148)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (41:00.152)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:00.248)
Right. Right. Well, and Myra with that, the other piece that you offer is the stories of other experiences to normalize the experience that people are having. Because sometimes people will say, well, is this normal? Has this happened before? This is too weird. It's too morbid. I'm like, no, let me tell you. And, you know, there's like, there's an easing when you offer a story as well to the person who then shares another story. So it's kind of a, a building, a weaving of stories.

Wakil (41:20.632)
Mm-hmm.

Myra Daniel (41:35.03)
Yeah, we're all stories. We are all stories. I think that's a Doctor Who quote, actually. But we are all stories. And so it's just lovely to be able to help people to either figure out what their story is, because sometimes they don't even. Or to just get it out there so that it can be left behind for others.

Annalouiza (41:50.082)
Right.
Beautiful.

Wakil (41:56.802)
Yeah, Phoenix, anything you'd like to share that we didn't talk about yet? Or last addition? Last word.

Phoenix (42:03.119)
Yeah, think my question, no worries. My question I think is more so about our hopes and desires for the outcomes of the death landscape and what we envision for the future and propelling and moving this forward. And I think the answer to that question for me is that death is no longer a taboo thing.

It's something that we incorporate into, again, it's not seen as something like you said, Annalouiza, is that too weird? No, it's not shocking. It's not terrifying, but it's something that's normalized that we can speak in layman's terms and it doesn't have to be. I think that we are so as a community, as a culture focused on youth, but there's never that talk about aging and dying and the other way around. So how do we embrace this?

Wakil (42:41.858)
haha

Annalouiza (42:48.246)
Mm-hmm.

Phoenix (43:02.299)
How do we incorporate and bring the cycles of the natural life cycles into our lives more? And how do we incorporate that into our work and our practice as well? Yeah.

Wakil (43:11.982)
Mm-hmm.

Myra Daniel (43:12.086)
Yeah, and how do we incorporate grief as a process, as a natural process into that model, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (43:12.228)
Right.

Wakil (43:15.864)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phoenix (43:16.241)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wakil (43:20.238)
Yeah. Another thing that's a kind of a daily breath by breath practices. Yeah. Grief. Yeah. Cause it's all around us all the time. Right? Yeah. 

Wow. This has been so wonderful. We've really enjoyed this a lot and we will talk about possibly doing the what is a death doula with you later and appreciate you so much.