Culturally Sensitive Training with Joe'l the Grave Woman

In this conversation, Joe'l Simone Maldonado, a licensed funeral director and grief educator, shares her profound experiences with death from a young age, the challenges she faces in her profession, and the importance of self-care and boundaries in her work. She emphasizes the need for cultural competency in death care and reflects on the spiritual aspects of her role, while also discussing the fears and uncertainties surrounding death. In this conversation, we explore the complex emotions surrounding death and grief, discussing personal fears, cultural practices, and the importance of inclusivity in end-of-life care. We share insights on how to find comfort in the inevitability of death, the significance of cultural narratives, and the unique ways individuals express their grief. The conversation emphasizes the need for diverse voices in discussions about death and the importance of living life fully while honoring those who have passed.
The Grave Woman website
Compassion and Choices
The Untethered Soul

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:02.956)
Welcome. On today's episode, we are pleased to spend time with Joe’l Simone Maldonado, also known as the grave woman. Joe'l is a licensed funeral director, embalmer, pre-planning specialist, award-winning death care educator, sacred grief practitioner, and proud founder of the Multicultural Death and Grief Care Academy.

She specializes in educating professionals about the importance of cultural competency, inclusion, and diversity in the end of life, death, and grief care.

Wakil (00:40.99)
Joe'l has worked in the death care industry since 2010 and also has over 15 years experience in the healthcare industry. She currently serves on the board of directors for Compassion and Choices and is a co-chair of the board's Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee and volunteers with the organization's African American Leadership Council. So great to have you with us today, Joe'l. Joe'l, welcome.

Annalouiza (01:04.598)
Welcome.

The Grave Woman (01:06.473)
Thank you both so much for having me.

Wakil (01:09.778)
Yeah, it's great. And I think we met or got connected through the conference that happened in Seattle. And I really appreciate you having taken the time to talk to us about the work you're doing. So we'd like to start by asking when you first became aware of death.

The Grave Woman (01:26.515)
That is such a good question. I wasn't expecting that to be the first question, amazing question. So I'm going to share two instances because I think awareness is multi-layered.

Wakil (01:28.689)
Hahaha. Yeah.

The Grave Woman (01:38.955)
And I was very young during my first experience being aware of death. And that was when my great grandmother passed away, my grandmother, maternal grandmother's mother. I was probably about four or five years old. We went up to Erie, Pennsylvania. It was freezing cold. And we were right on Lake Erie where she was buried. And I just remember thinking in the church, watching her, why are we watching her sleep?


Why does she have on clothes if she's sleeping? And I remember, don't remember if it was my grandmother, one of my great aunts or my mom, but someone said, honey, she's not sleeping, she's died. And I didn't know what that meant, but I was obsessed. What do you mean she's died? And why is she in this box? And why do the people that died go in the ground? Are all these people, have they died? All of these people that are around us, or am I dead? And I remember,

Wakil (02:34.462)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (02:39.619)
Just having those thoughts but then my second layer of awareness was when my best friend at the age of I think five or six not that much later, She died in a freak accident. She and her brother were playing hide and go seek and I don't remember I don't know if you remember the old land rovers that had the spare tire in the trunk of the car not on the back of the car like they they were for a while She crawled in there to hide it happened to be empty and they couldn't find her the FBI came and was looking for her and her mother got into the car one day to go to the grocery store to get all the people that were her house looking for her daughter that was state, know, kind of bunkered in her home looking for her daughter, get them something to drink from the grocery store and the putrid smell of death was in her car. And I remember when they told us, my parents told us about it, me and a friend, it was like, oh my God, she died. How did she die? She's so young. Am I going to die again? Those questions. So those are my first levels of awareness to death.

Annalouiza (03:37.472)
Wow.

Wakil (03:46.59)
Wow, wow, that's pretty intense. That's very intense. Yeah, wow. Thanks for sharing that.

Annalouiza (03:48.844)
That is intense.

Well, it's a yes, thank you for holding that story for your friend as well. And her death has that made an impact on your life from that point on?

The Grave Woman (04:06.163)
I think it just always sat with me that people didn't have to be old like my great grandma to die.

There's been several other moments in life that have been a reminder of that, but I think that's the biggest impact. And I'm going to tell you something very, I don't know if it's good or bad. I started hoping you didn't ask me her name because I don't remember, but I remember that story and those feelings. 
And my mother has told me her name several times over the years, but for some reason, I don't know whether it's repressed memory or what, or I don't want to revisit those feelings.I don't know, but I can never seem to just bring her name to the top of my mind.

Wakil (04:48.883)
yeah, that makes some sense for sure.

Wakil (04:55.124)
Tell us more about your work, your current role, the work you're doing now.

The Grave Woman (05:03.263)
My camera's not on, but I started smiling when I heard you ask that question. So right now, most of my work has been through the Multicultural Death and Grief Care Academy, which includes traveling and speaking at conferences, the conference which I shared space with you all in in Seattle, the Super Death Care Conference, the National Female Directors Association Annual Convention and Expo. I recently spoke there.

Wakil (05:09.086)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (05:34.011)
Doing things like this online and educating masses of people through podcasts like yours. And for the past, I'd say three to four months, I've been deeply immersed in a summer business accelerator program in which I've been kind of getting more of the business foundation behind the work that I'm doing. But the majority of the work I do now focuses on educating other death care professionals, medical professionals, and just people that are curious about holding space culturally and sacredly for those that are transitioning and have passed away in their communities.

Wakil (06:12.212)
Wonderful. Would you say that this work you're doing, like you talked about the impact of those early on layers of awareness, would you say that this work was impacted by that or was initiated by that or maybe inspired by those first layers of awareness?

The Grave Woman (06:38.353)
I would have to say yes, but I can't just limit it to that. I think it's inspired by not only my lived and felt experience, but those of my ancestors as well who have not had the privilege and the luxury of being cared for properly. I think a lot of it is sacred in the sense that it's not limited to just the physical, it extends into the spiritual and helping people sit in the soul of grief and understanding that to be a sacred space. It is spiritual in the sense that it's not limited by dogma or religion or even a certain faith or practice, but it gets to the core of who we are as humans and I think that is really what inspires it.

Annalouiza (07:27.884)
So this work that you're doing, what do you find are the biggest challenges or hurdles that impact you as the grave woman?

The Grave Woman (07:39.367)
Such a great question. For a while it was ego, I have to be honest. Ego in the sense that feeling like why is no one listening to me? Why does no one else think that this work is important? And as many of your listeners will know, and I'm sure you may know, when you do sacred work, it's not necessarily the most digestible for other people in some instances until it is. 

And so overcoming the ego within myself that says what you have to say is important and people need to listen and becoming the servant of no, you're here to deliver a message, you're here to to be of service and be of help to others that don't have a voice. And so overcoming that ego and stepping into the role of the servant, I think another challenge would be is that this work is important and not allowing the ego to inflate my own importance in being the servant to the work.

Wakil (08:44.457)
Wow, that's a great answer. It's a good answer for most of us in most of our lives. To be able to step aside and not get too attached to people noticing how great we are and to allow to just be of service just because of the just acceptance of the fact that we are being of service. That's great. Thank you. I really like that answer.

Annalouiza (09:09.954)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Wakil (09:13.204)
So what do you do or what do you, how do you deal with the day-to-day challenges and the day-to-day, you know, this can be overwhelming, this work of life in general, but this work can be overwhelming at times. So what kind of things do you do that help you support yourself to self-care, to just feel supported and cared for?

The Grave Woman (09:38.089)
So recently, especially with traveling, I've been traveling, I've been doing this class and a couple of other things as well as life just happening. My husband's facing some health challenges and just life happening, right? 

So the thing that has been really helping me right now is realizing that I have not been taking care of necessarily my spiritual hygiene, which is very important to me. And that looks for me like being in tune with the moon and the stars and sitting in the sun, sitting in silence, being still not rushing through the day. But when you're in an airport or run surrounded by thousands of strangers who are all going somewhere, that's a little hard to do. Right. And that's been my environment for the past few months. But right now, what that looks like for me is just slowing down and letting my mornings be slow. And even though I have a checklist of things to do throughout the day, reminding myself that these are only things and there are people around you who matter. There are people that need your attention. There's family, you know, and not necessarily comparing my journey to others, but just sitting in gratitude for the fact that I'm so blessed. I get to spend the day letting my morning be slow. I get to look at my grandmother's face physically. I get to spend time with my husband and face challenges together and I can remember a time when I prayed to have a husband. So just sitting in remembrance of the things that I prayed for and being grateful for them and also having very solid boundaries.

Wakil (11:21.588)
Yeah, yeah. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about the boundaries.

The Grave Woman (11:27.647)
As a death care professional, I think anyone that works in this line of work, whether it be as a doulo or a chaplain, some type of spiritual advisor or a funeral director like myself,

Again, our heart is to serve and be there for others, right? But how much of our lives can be guided by our heart without paying attention to our physical well-being, our mental well-being, our spiritual well-being, it is very addictive to help people to start helping people, especially in the realm of death that does not keep business hours or does not keep holiday hours. It's like you can begin to not only neglect yourself, but those around you and the things that are important to sustain us. And so I've had to become very intentional about not only setting, but enforcing boundaries with myself around my capacity, 

Wakil (12:21.128)
Mm.

The Grave Woman (12:29.602)
Around my ability to spend time with others and time with spirit, time alone travel schedule for example I promised my husband there would be no more trips this year after about six months of traveling and so getting invitations to say we'll give you more money but it's like no you know I promised to my husband and right now home is priority or even though the money sounds great I don't want to be led by that though I think it's important that we're paid for our work

Wakil (12:42.931)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (12:57.747)
Keeping that in mind that money isn't everything and having a boundary in my mind about that.

Wakil (13:04.396)
That's really good. Yeah. I think that's also important what you said about it. You know, we have to, it's important that we get paid or that people get paid for this work. And it's always a struggle for people like us who are care about this, passionate about it and want to do the work as a gift and as service. But life, you know, life has bills. There's bills. So yeah.

Annalouiza (13:21.664)
Right.

The Grave Woman (13:25.598)
Yes.

Annalouiza (13:26.087)
Mm-hmm. I do appreciate you saying you even set boundaries for yourself to yourself. I think I heard you say I may have misheard, but, you know, oftentimes we hear about setting boundaries so others don't cross them and usurp your time and you saying that you set boundaries for yourself to make sure that you choose for you. I thought that was really so clear, right? Like…

Wakil (13:53.748)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:54.432)
…in order for you to be resource to support others on their journey, you have to make sure you're taking care of yourself too. And I think that's so invaluable as people who are of service to others in general.

The Grave Woman (14:10.441)
Yes, and I appreciate and you heard that correctly.

And just getting on the mental health side of that for a minute, right? I had a friend tell me one time, because many of us, again, who definitely see this work as sacred, we are so open spiritually that we can get lost in that spirituality. 

Annalouiza (14:29.368)
That's right.

Wakil (14:39.036)
Right.

The Grave Woman (14:44.925)
And though I am well aware that spirit has no boundaries, we as humans do, right? And so I can go on a binge, whether it be YouTube or books or you know, lost in the forest, following my intuition and following spirit, but then also again, tapping into that intuition that says now it's time to rest or maybe it's not time for that door to open in your mind. And I had a friend tell me one time that our minds are like wild horses and we have to learn how to rein them in. especially when you're looking at like something like death, there's the intellectual side, there's the spiritual side, there's the metaphysical side.

And I'm pretty sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but that's room for plenty of rabbit holes, you know?

Wakil (15:19.7)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:21.847)
Yeah.

You know, but I'm going to get stuck on this because I think it's really important for, it's an important conversation, right? Because I think you're the first person to actually say that in that way, and I can understand it. And it is our minds that kind of, well, first of all, have you heard of The Untethered Soul, the book by, I think it's David Singer?

The Grave Woman (15:47.473)
I have not heard of it, but I had this intense image when I heard you say the words

Annalouiza (15:51.584)
Yeah. So I have been listening to this audio book, maybe once or twice a year for the last maybe seven years. And the one thing that I was just bemused by is he'll say, you know, who's, who's having these thoughts, where are they coming from? 

Wakil (15:51.752)
Ha ha ha.

The Grave Woman (16:10.429)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:20.022)
And at the end of the day, he's like, you're the CEO of a company and you've given the thought control to the office manager. And the office manager wants to do everything and get it all right and stack everything and, and, know, all this work needs to be done, but you're the CEO. can shut that down and just be quiet. And so that's also my, my journey in terms of, you know, doing this work and being a mom and doing all these other things. But at the end of the day, in order for me to be resourced, quieting in mind, you know, spending time in nature and just giving that space to listen to spirit and or just be quiet, right? And I think that's so invaluable for us. So thank you so much for that reminder again. And hopefully when somebody listens to this, they too will say, yeah, the office manager does not have control of this.

Wakil (17:06.494)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (17:10.003)
I so appreciate it.

And I wrote the name of that book down and if it's okay, I'll share a brief little something that happened today That is a perfect example of what you just said Lawrence and I who's my husband we were running around doing some errands earlier and we were at Publix I don't know if you all have that out in California, but it's like a really it's a really nice grocery store and We were walking out and there was a van The door was just open the back door and you could see the two-car seat that were the same size. 

So that indicated to me that perhaps there were twins or two very small children that were close in age. And I remember thinking to myself, why did this person leave the door open? And then I said out loud, that's called being a mom. 

Wakil (17:57.477)
Haha.

The Grave Woman (18:10.987)
And I don't have children, but I have friends that have children and people very close to me that do. And it just reminded me of the sacrifice that mothers make in their minds. Like these humans, these creatures live in your head, rent free forever. And so much so, especially at that small age, which those car seats represented, that she forgot to close the door, not because she was being, you know, in some way irresponsible or neglectful. Her primary focus was probably getting her children in the store in one piece, 

Wakil (18:32.267)
Right?

The Grave Woman (18:40.897)
You know, and not forgetting what she went in there for. And so it just reminded me again of the luxury of, okay, even though I'd so desire children of this cross section in life, I have the ability to be fully present. So why not do that while I have that time and space and then when that time comes, I can be fully present in that journey, even if I'm leaving the group open.

Wakil (18:55.454)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:57.528)
Joe'l, note to you, you are a mother. All of us are mothers. Wakil is a mother. We are taking care of lots of children. Sometimes they're in bipedal form and sometimes quadruped, sometimes rooted and fur bellies. That mothering happens. You probably are a great mother to people who see you.

Wakil (19:23.188)
Yeah. And let me say your mic is working really well now and it might not need to be so close.

The Grave Woman (19:23.273)
Thank you for that. I needed to hear that. Thank you.

Annalouiza (19:33.004)
good. my gosh, what just happened?

Wakil (19:35.644)
I know what changed, it just notices, whoa, it's blasting. Anyway, great. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Annalouiza (19:38.944)
Okay. So. So Joe'l, in this moment, when you think about the end of life, what frightens you?

The Grave Woman (19:53.107)
Y'all have some great questions. 

Wakil (19:54.93)
Ha ha.

The Grave Woman (20:01.791)
Honestly.I still think about things like, it hurt? I still think about how others will react to the news of my passing, those that I love, will they be okay? I'm okay with the unknown part because I think the unknown is exciting. 

Wakil (20:21.318)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:22.166)
Truth.

The Grave Woman (20:32.679)
Will I  have to suffer? Am I going to die before I'm empty? Will I be young? Will I be old? Will my children be ready? Will I be ready? Like, I mean, there's so many things. Will my parents have to bury me? Like, those are kind of the fearful, uncomfortable parts for me.

Annalouiza (20:33.112)
Hmm.

Wakil (20:54.12)
Yeah, yeah, those makes sense, they really do.

Annalouiza (20:59.416)
Yeah.

Wakil (21:02.036)
Yeah, that kind of sense of, will I be done? 

The Grave Woman (21:06.079)
Yeah, do I have to come back?

Annalouiza (21:06.264)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:10.476)
Yes, my biggest fear.

Wakil (21:27.752)
Yeah, it's funny. We had somebody say, there's this sort of odd thing about the idea of reincarnation that we all assume that will be reincarnated on this planet. And he was like,
how do we know we won't be reincarnated on some other planet or some other universe? I like that. 

Annalouiza (21:31.416)
Yeah. We make so many assumptions, don't we?

The Grave Woman (21:39.081)
Yeah.

Wakil (21:56.601)
Yeah. Anyway, thank you. That's a really good, that's, know, and I guess the next thing we would like to understand is what helps you deal with that fear? What kind of, what makes you feel supported or, or again, another thought about that is what just kind of, what kind of resources do you have? Practices do you have that help you keep going every day and kind of move forward in spite of those fears?

Annalouiza (22:01.528)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (22:06.301)
Hmm. I think a lot and I need to kind of sit with that as I'm answering. A lot of comfort comes to me in the thought of I'm not the first person that's ever gonna die and I sure as hell won't be the last. And if my grandfather could do it, if my uncle could do it, if my grandma can look forward to it and have peace about it, if my mom can have peace about it If they could do it, I can do it. 

Annalouiza (22:36.966)
Ha ha

The Grave Woman (22:54.417)
And then the fact that I kind of look at death as an earned right of passage, I do believe we have to earn the right to die. I do. And that doesn't mean that when someone dies at four or five years old or as a baby that they didn't earn it or that when someone takes their life that they didn't earn it. You know, I that's not attached to like a belief system, but I do think that we have to earn that right because I do see death as a rite of passage. What resources do I have? 

I think a lot of my beliefs about life or death are rooted in the way that I grew up, not so much religiously, but the example of others around me. Death has never been a taboo topic in my home and my family. Working with the dead, perhaps, my uncle was a mortician, but my mom never wanted anything to do with corpses or dead bodies. And even when she goes to funerals, a lot of times she won't look at the person. 

My father has always taken my sister and I to the cemetery and introduced us to our ancestors and told us stories about them and the impacts that they as well as other people in our community have had on his life. And so I think a lot of my comfort or resource comes from death not being foreign to me.

Wakil (24:16.244)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. I was kind of thinking though, and it's kind of circling back around a little bit because I was thinking back on our conversation and I'm still curious to know a little more about some of the work you're doing because in our introduction we talked about that you are working in a cultural competency, inclusion, diversity. I remember that was part of what you were doing at the conference.

I wonder if you could talk a little more about the compassionate choices of diversity equity and the African American Leadership Council, those things that you're working with and how those are part of your life and what's important about them to you.

The Grave Woman (24:59.609)
Oh of course. For those that are unaware, Compassion and Choices is an advocacy organization that helps individuals chart their end of life journey.

And I mean, that's a mouthful in itself thinking about the fact that we can chat or chat chart and have navigation tools for our end of life, whether they be our dementia tool or our research about medical aid in dying and the advocacy that we do both legislatively and just as far as educating the public about medical aid in dying.

Annalouiza (25:16.098)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (25:38.533)
The African American Leadership Council is near and dear to my heart because it's a group of phenomenal African American leaders from around the country that come together to pool our resources, our knowledge, our expertise to educate our community about the offerings of compassion and choices and also to educate compassion and choices about the power of culture in community. Particularly in the African American community.

Wakil (26:04.471)
Oh wowl.

The Grave Woman (26:08.331)
It's no secret that historically medical aid and dying has been a very white conversation. And the work that I do on the diversity, equity, inclusion, and now belonging committee for the board is ensuring that the conversation includes everyone's story. If our mission is to help everyone chart their end of life journey, we have to accept and acknowledge that everyone's journey is different, whether that be culture, race, ethnicity, lifestyle, identity, size, socioeconomic status. And so the work that I do on that committee focuses on highlighting those journeys so that those voices and stories don't get swept under the rug in this big conversation about medical aid in dying and advocacy.

Wakil (26:58.78)
Yeah, well.

Annalouiza (26:59.885)
Wow.
That is such a, I mean, I'm so happy. I'm so invigorated that you're out there doing this beautiful work because it is so crucial that all stories be welcomed and heard and talked about, right? Like all cultures, I love this.

Wakil (27:08.734)
Yeah yeah

The Grave Woman (27:25.065)
Yeah, and then the work through the Multicultural Death and Grief Care Academy, you asked what fueled it or has impacted it. I think one of the biggest impacts was realizing when I was in mortuary school, and especially during my apprenticeship and becoming a newly licensed funeral director and embalmer, that there was no education about caring for people that look like me. And I mean African American and Black people.

Wakil (27:25.086)
Wow.

The Grave Woman (27:52.349)
There's no education or there was no education about how to care for our hair, for our cosmetic needs, to honor our sacred rituals at the end of life, depending on what we believe and have lived our life expressing spiritually. And that caused a lot of anger and a lot of ego flare within me. And my response, as I said at the conference, when I get pissed off, my innate response is to educate and create a solution, right? 

And so I started teaching those around me at first in funeral homes and then in small groups and coffee shops and then eventually online and now worldwide about how to do those things. My business started off as a YouTube channel talking about my frustrations and my experiences or even before that a blog spot blog if people remember those. 

Wakil (28:42.856)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:49.42)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (28:52.243)
It was actually Caitlin Doty who said to me you know you you need to say this a little louder you need to kind of talk a little more and you could do that. YouTube videos and so I started making notes and through those my mentor, one of my mentors, Miss Anita Grant found me and she said to me, know, these are all continuing education courses. You can get these certified and you can teach these. And so in 2020 I started offering them to other funeral directors and death care professionals and the rest is history. now, yes.

Wakil (29:14.974)
Wow.

Annalouiza (29:15.532)
That is, spirit has been moving. That is so amazing because it is high time.

Wakil (29:19.028)
Yeah. Yeah, and then some, yeah. You know, it's part of what we are trying to do in this Conversations podcast too is bring as many voices as we can to hear from people we have. I'm really looking forward to a conversation with an indigenous man from my local area here who recently lost his mom and they went, I talked to him a bit and his girlfriend a bit about the the way they celebrated that. And it's very different. It's a different kind of culture that we don't really notice or recognize. And we need to all be hearing these things need to be out there and understood, especially from people who are working in end of life. And so glad you're doing that work. Thank you so much. That's beautiful.

Annalouiza (30:05.74)
Yeah, well, and also, like, even though there are indigenous and black and African Americans and Latinos and Chicanos, everybody's got their own ceremonial practices. If you don't have any, you too can start having conversations to create some for yourself going forward, because I think there's a part of some of our community who would like to have some of these as well. And so, you know, it's a both and.

The Grave Woman (30:35.935)
It is. And as you were saying that, like I'm a very visual person. The vision that came to me was like, when I tell people about holiday traditions, like we each have some in our family, but what if you grew up in a foster home and you're put into this family that has these traditions, you feel like the outsider. And the wonderful thing about death is that everybody dies, which means that they're unique facets to your story and your death. What do you want that to look like?

Annalouiza (31:02.188)
That's right. that's so wonderful.

Wakil (31:03.966)
Exactly. Yeah, that's so great. Perfectly well said. Perfectly said. Let's see. I think we're close to the end. we always end with this question, is, what do you wish we had asked you? What else would you like to tell us about?

Annalouiza (31:15.444)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (31:26.857)
I need to sit with that for a second and I must say you all have asked me like more than one question that I've never been asked before and I so appreciate that. I really do.

I can't even really think. Like, I'm just so blown away by the questions that you've asked. So I just appreciate you allowing me to share and for putting such depth and having such rich questions.

Wakil (31:49.768)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (31:55.436)
Well, and if you ever think of something that you really want to talk about, feel free to reach out and we can talk some more.

Wakil (32:01.8)
Yeah, yeah. Or even, you know, if you want to take a few breaths right now and just think, because we've got time and we have an editor.

The Grave Woman (32:01.853)
Yes, yes.
Okay. A question that I love answering that I think would be fitting for this is the most unique celebration of life or expression of grief that I've seen. 

Wakil (32:24.062)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:24.278)
All right, let's hear it.

The Grave Woman (32:34.007)
My grandmother can't cry. Like there's like a medical reason I don't know what it's called. And so when my uncle passed away in 2015, I was very concerned because for the first time, like we talked about those levels of awareness, I was an adult, I was present, and I was aware of the fact that this was a profound loss for my family. 

And, I was so concerned about how she was going to express herself because could you imagine not having the tears to cry for your child who died? 

Wakil (33:02.726)
Yeah, no.

The Grave Woman (33:17.339)
And the thing I realized about my grandmother is that she mourns through pouring into others. And so it was such an emotional process watching her. Instead of tears pour resources into other people to help them fulfill their destiny 

Wakil (33:32.51)
Wow. That's it. Yeah.

The Grave Woman (33:38.719)
And it hit me for the first time that that's what she was doing my entire life Was mourning through pouring into me? Into our community. And the most unique celebration of life I've ever seen was a space memorial where a group of families and loved ones of individuals gathered in the early morning dust of the New Mexico desert and sent a rocket out into space carrying a symbolic portion of cremated remains strapped to a rocket ship.

Wakil (34:01.78)
Hahaha

The Grave Woman (34:03.685)
and celebrating and counting down like it was New Year's Eve and cheering and high-fiving and hugging and crying and celebration that they had done that.

Annalouiza (34:14.594)
That is super cool. Not kind of for me, but that's pretty cool.

Wakil (34:13.978)
Wow. We're definitely going to add that to our list of choices,

Annalouiza (34:23.384)
Possibilities, right? But Joe'l, I kind of want to go back to your grandmother and the insight that you had about her tears. And I also want to hold space for all of us who are not big criers. I'm one of them. And, you know, it's interesting. I have occasionally come across people who will mention like, oh you know, so and so past and there and there was a family member. They just weren't crying as though that person was grieving less than the rest of the family. 

And I appreciate that you noticed her tears are in the form of caregiving to others. She pours that out. that is the way, like when you cry, it's like you feel like you're emptied and then refreshed and rejuvenated. And there are a myriad of ways people can do that. And oftentimes, there are

The Grave Woman (34:56.827)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:24.088)
I hope to challenge people on their ideas of what grief looks like because we all do it very differently. So I appreciate you bringing that little bit of insight, hoping that somebody else might say, so my friend doesn't cry. And that friend may also have a lot of grief and be showing it in different ways.

Wakil (35:46.45)
Yeah, beautiful. That's so important. Thank you. Thanks so much. This has been a great conversation. Do you have a poem or something you wanted to share with us?

The Grave Woman (36:00.059)
Not necessarily, maybe it is a poem. I always end everything I do with the words live life, love hard. That's what I'd like to share with everyone else. Live your life and love hard.

Wakil (36:07.187)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:10.562)
Beautiful.

Wakil (36:13.374)
Live life, love hard. Yeah, I love it. Yes.

Annalouiza (36:16.13)
You guys start making a bumper sticker for that on it.

Wakil (36:19.248)
Ha ha

The Grave Woman (36:19.392)
I think I'm putting it on a t-shirt. I actually have worked to, I'm working towards trademarking it.

Wakil (36:25.465)
I love it.

Annalouiza (36:27.362)
Well, I could see it on the back of my pickup truck, so...

The Grave Woman (36:30.053)
Awesome. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket. Thank you.

Wakil (36:30.333)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:32.889)
Yeah, so such a pleasure to sit and talk to you, Joe'l. I hope to meet you in person sometime.

The Grave Woman (36:44.776)
I hope so.

Wakil (36:44.828)
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it. It was nice to meet you and I look forward to maybe seeing you again. You know, there's more conferences coming. We may run into each other there and just thank you for the work you're doing. It's really profound and precious work that you're doing and so important. And thank you for being willing to share that with us today.

The Grave Woman (37:03.315)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (37:04.866)
Thank you.