Compassionate End-of-Life Care for the 2SLGBTQIA+ Community with Tianna Dargent

In this conversation, Tiana Dargent, founder of Queer Community Death Care, shares her personal journey with death and grief, highlighting the importance of inclusive and compassionate end-of-life care for the 2SLGBTQIA+ community. She discusses her experiences with death from a young age, the evolution of her understanding of grief, and the creation of safe spaces for discussions about death through Queer Death Salons. Tiana emphasizes the challenges marginalized communities face in death care and the significance of community support in navigating these experiences. In this conversation, the speakers explore the importance of creating safe spaces for discussions about death and dying. They share personal experiences and fears surrounding death, particularly concerning parenting and legacy. The conversation emphasizes the healing power of nature and the need for culturally competent care in death practices. Creative solutions for navigating challenges in death care are also discussed, highlighting the importance of open-mindedness and adaptability in these sensitive topics.

Queer Community Deathcare website
Article - How to queer your end-of-life planning
YouTube - 2SLGBTQIA+ Grief, An Intimate Relationship with Disenfranchisement

Transcript

Wakil (00:02.396)
 So welcome everybody. On today's episode, we're looking forward to speaking with Tiana Dargent. Tiana is a queer, white, Leatherdyke, parent, and lover of the land currently living and working on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin-Ashinaabe peoples, colonially known as Ottawa, Ontario. She's the founder of Queer Community Death Care. She consults with end-of-life care practitioners and organizations of all types to support them in offering 2-SLGBTQIA-plus competent care. So important. She teaches end-of-life care studies through the Institute of Traditional Medicine and facilitates monthly online discussions for 2-SLGBTQIA-plus people on topics surrounding death, dying, and grief. Welcome.
 
 Annalouiza (00:57.058)
 Yes, Tiana is also committed to empowering the 2SLGBTQIA plus community with knowledge, resources and supportive relational experiences for end of life. Her aim is to revolutionize death care, ensuring inclusive, personalized and compassionate care for all. We're so happy to have you here Tiana, thank you.
 
 Tiana (01:22.657)
 Thank you for having me. I'm really glad that I get to talk with both of you today.
 
 Annalouiza (01:27.276)
 Yay.
 
 Wakil (01:28.461)
 Yeah, so great. We always start with this first question, which is, when did you first become aware of death?
 
 Tiana (01:36.114)
 I can't really remember like a first moment. I do know that most of my grandparents had already died before I was born and so they had always been absent in my life and I always knew it was because of their deaths. And so I was aware that death was a thing and that it kept people from me. 

But my first real experience with a death itself was when my best friend's mom died, I think I was probably about six or seven, maybe eight. And her mother died of a brain tumor, aneurysm, I guess, in the end. And yeah, was kind of like all of a sudden she was gone. And kind of all of a sudden my friend was gone too. You know, she was really devastated, obviously, and as is often common, closer with her mother than with her father. And so had a really hard time and withdrew from me. And then eventually her father kind of sold their house and they moved away. And being a young kid, I didn't really know how to keep in touch and that kind of thing. to me, death really meant, you know, separation and not just the person dying, separating, but that there's like an ecology of separation that happens following a death.
 
 Wakil (03:07.364)
 Yeah, yeah, a loss. Wow. So thank you. That's an important story.
 
 Tiana (03:14.657)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (03:14.989)
 It is. So how has death impacted the story of your life then? Going from that moment forward, what have you capted about death that has influenced you.
 
 Tiana (03:29.837)
 Mm-hmm. I think I'm go back to my family relationship with death a bit where it's kind of like it's always present but not really talked about. Not really, you know, I didn't know what does death look like, like what's the process of death? How do we grieve and mourn? How do we recognize those feelings within ourselves? How do we express them with our loved ones? It was really kind of opaque to me and I didn't really know how to deal with that. And then my father died when I was in my late teens. He had cancer and had a short amount of time to live. And we did kind of like the business arrangements in that time…

Wakil (04:17.233)
 Haha.
 
 Annalouiza (04:18.092)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (04:24.06)
 Mmm.
 
 Tiana (04:28.513)
 You know, like, like, here's how to settle my estate, you know, let's spend two months together and, and then I'll die. And we were like mostly estranged before that point. And so the rest of my family didn't really support me in that death because they didn't know how. They already weren't teaching me about death. They're kind of just like, you know, he's dead. So now we're done thinking about him, talking about him, referring to him, kind of a thing, which always felt wrong to me. I didn't know a better way. There was not like a religious connection in my family with how to deal with death. And when I got into my thirties, I was just like, I need to dig into this, like, what is grief? Like, did I grieve? I don't even know. 
 
 Annalouiza (05:13.846)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (05:14.236)
 Mm.
 
 Tiana (05:26.581)
 So it was like coming to myself, coming to my own self understanding of what my relationship to grief is and that has informed kind of where I've gone since then. I've done a lot of learning about death just to do my own advanced planning. I have children. I wanted to take the kind of the lessons that I got from my father about putting your affairs in order when you can and move forward with that. And I learned from this wonderful woman, Julie Kion who was a birth doula who taught me how to give birth, who then transitioned into being a death doula. And I was like, and now you're gonna teach me how to die, Julie. 

Wakil (05:57.99)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (06:22.131)
 And she just kind of walked me through with a group of people, like everything you need to consider for your own end of life and how to plan it. And it felt invigorating. I was just like, there's so many options. There's so many things you can do and then I learned about grief and I was like, there's so many ways you can engage with it.
 
 Wakil (06:25.786)
 Yeah.
 
 Tiana (06:50.345)
 So I started just trying to through meditation, through therapy, through learning more about death, through trying to connect with my father on the other side, just like all the things that I could have been doing beforehand and I was kind of in doing and that curiosity has moved beyond my own personal relationship with death into death more generally. So the more I learn, the more I feel like I'm getting skills around end of life care that I can bring back to my community, like the same way I would if I took a first aid training, and just have that available for when it's needed.
 
 Annalouiza (07:09.206)
 Yes.
 
 Wakil (07:09.478)
 Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah, yeah. Beautiful, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (07:14.024)
 Mm-hmm. that is so wonderful. I'm glad that that was your springboard to continuing. It's like a little stone in the lake, and it's just kind of rippling out from you having that experience out into your community. it's, yeah, it's so, yeah.

Wakil (07:32.572)
 That's so cool. That's so great. Well, that's a good segue then to tell us more about the work you're doing now. What is your current work and the role you're playing?
 
 Tiana (07:39.165)
 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm the founder of Queer Community Death Care, which is right now just me. But that just kind of came about after I was doing my studies with the Institute of Traditional Medicine. One of the directors was very supportive in me bringing the skills to my community and supporting me in figuring out how to do that. And and it was also kind of the beginning of lockdowns. And so it was like, okay, well, I can't really meet people in person to do any kind of work. can't volunteer in a hospice. 

Wakil (08:19.141)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (08:38.411)
 They're not taking folks on. You know, what can I do? And one of the local hospices was like, well, we're doing, you know, like online death cafes. And death cafes are basically a like a conversation group where there's no real agenda or anything other than talking about death. 

Wakil (08:40.475)
 Yeah.
 
 Tiana (09:06.759)
 And so I volunteered with them for a couple of years running queer focused death cafes and also started teaching with the Institute of Traditional Medicine in the program that I took just to be like, here's some queer content that's related. And so that was great. Just being able to see a little bit of a gap in their education and be invited to come fill it was really lovely. And that's been a wonderful relationship. But then I moved away from death cafes because it's so broad. And I was finding that the folks who are coming really want to dig in into some like really hard things, really personal things.
 
 And you know, a death cafe, could have, you know, 20 people show up and one person wants to talk about a death that happened two days ago and another person wants to tell all of their best death jokes and it doesn't really go well together. And so I decided to launch a new series called Queer Death Salons, which is very similar to a death cafe. Folks can come, but there's a topic every month and people can understand what we're going to be talking about.
 
 Wakil (10:04.838)
 Mmm.
 
 Tiana (10:05.365)
 And we can get really deep into something and it draws the people who want to talk about the topic. So we sometimes have specific grief groups for particular griefs that are more common in the 2S LGBTQIA plus community. we'll often have, know, disenfranchised grief as a general topic or the grief of losing somebody to suicide or overdose or bad supply. We've had some groups about something that I've been calling like trans body recuperation, which is, when a trans person dies and maybe hasn't like changed their name legally, for instance, or hasn't appointed next of kin other than their family, but maybe they were estranged from their family 

Annalouiza (11:02.125)
 Right.
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (11:26.399)
 And their family doesn't really respect who they are and will recuperate the body and then, you know, bury them, memorialize them with the wrong name and the wrong clothes. And the information doesn't actually get back to their community. So many people are grieving people who kind of have just vanished in this way. 

And so we have groups to talk about what that is like. We have groups to talk about how we can do our memorials outside of this model, how we can do our memorials even if we don't have access to the body, and how we can do our memorials at a later date when we find out what happened. And so we have a lot of groups like this, which is about particular groups. We also have groups that are more about advanced planning. 

Annalouiza (11:40.48)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (11:40.72)
 Hmm.
 
 Tiana (11:56.317)
 So we're doing a series now about advanced planning and what kinds of considerations queer and trans people will want to take when making their arrangements to safeguard their rights and make sure that they're memorialized the ways that they wish to be. And we also have groups that are a little bit more lighthearted or esoteric. 

Wakil (12:06.172)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (12:08.04)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (12:23.285)
 So we'll sometimes have groups about how do we maintain our relationships with our loved ones who have passed after they've died? And that could be through ritual, that could be through speaking to them, through magical means, spiritual means. So we kind of go all over the place. I invite feedback from folks about what they want to talk about. And when something comes up a lot, that's what we'll be talking about next.
 
 Wakil (12:45.546)
 Wow. I love that. Yeah, we definitely, yeah, we will definitely put some links in the podcast notes for people to find you with that. That's so great. Yeah, I do a class and I'm doing this class next week. think advanced care planning or well, it's called Before You Go. And it's two hours of, all the things that you can do. And we do talk about it at some point. I think I'm going to add more in there now that you've kind of sparked my interest. And I'll definitely put the link in our resources document, too.
 
 Tiana (12:54.689)
 Sure, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (12:55.544)
 Yes.
 
 Tiana (13:03.083)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (13:15.526)
 For people whose partners are same sex or who are LGBT…, yeah, that list, that acronym. 

Tiana (13:23.846)
 It's a difficult alphabet soup.
 
 Annalouiza (13:23.277)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (13:44.098)
 Yeah, you do that so well. But anyway, to make sure that that's, or to just kind of note that that's gonna maybe be different, right? And that there's a reason to really learn from you and from others about how to do that. We talked to a guy down in San Francisco who's a trans man and he loved the Sisters of Perpetual whatever they were…

Tiana (13:52.339)
 indulgence.
 
 Annalouiza (14:04.536)
 That's right.
 
 Wakil (14:13.498)
 …they make a yeah yeah he said they make up a bi- or you know ecologically sound glitter ash that they would and they use that to spread the ashes and just to celebrate the people that are not and that are not celebrated but to some people in that community that are often, as you said, shuffled aside and said, you know, but their families say that we aren't doing that. I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that with us.
 
 Annalouiza (14:21.194)
 Right.
 
 Yes. And Tiana, before I go on and because I'm actually new to the 2SLGBTQIA +, and just a really quick sound bite. Can you just explain the 2S? I think a lot of us already know LGBTQIA +, but just the 2S please.

Tiana (14:36.789)
 Yes. Yeah. Of course, 2S stands for Two-Spirited and it comes from Indigenous people here in Turtle Island. And so that refers, it's kind of an umbrella term, which can mean a lot of different things depending on the nation in question and how they use it internally. And it's only to be used by Indigenous people, so it is not a term for everyone.
 
 Annalouiza (15:03.82)
 Gotcha. Okay. That's good. Cause I don't know that all of our listeners would actually understand this, but I wanted to just clear that up just cause it's important.
 
 Tiana (15:09.993)
 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and we're always adding letters, so it's confusing.
 
 Wakil (15:11.738)
 Yeah, and that's, well, that's important that it is an indigenous, not not for all of us to just take on as as our own, you know, as we tend to do. That sounds good. I'll take it.
 
 Annalouiza (15:14.68)
 hahahaha
 
 Tiana (15:26.823)
 Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
 
 Annalouiza (15:32.034)
 So with this amazing work that you're doing, and an amazing nod in like, I want to actually say, in all encompassing, heartfelt, present, and genuine work that you do, what are your challenges that you find out in the world doing this?
 
 Tiana (15:52.161)
 One of the things that I love about the work that I do is that I really do it for my communities. And one of the biggest challenges, honestly, is explaining why it's needed to people outside of my community. Because some people just don't get it. Some people have a hard time imagining situations that are outside of their own experience. You know, when it's when something works for the majority of people it's not questioned. 

Wakil (16:30.928)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (16:37.057)
 Right. Right, right.
 
 Tiana (16:49.173)
 And so I've had a some pushback where some people have been like, so you wouldn't help a straight person die. And I was just like, well, I mean, sure, I wouldn't turn away a person. But that's not the focus of where I'm putting my energy, right? And there's plenty of amazing people who help, you know, everyone. And yeah, so it's just kind of…

I wish more people would understand that serving my own community is a kind of an act of love and self nourishing and something that I hope helps each person in my community then share goodness beyond themselves as well. So I can't spread myself to everyone in the same way.
 
 Annalouiza (17:05.9)
 Yeah. Well, no, you can't. And this is your lived experience and your like rich understanding of this community. Just like last week, we visited with another person who helps out with people of color, black people, their bodies. Like everybody has a different need  to be fully acknowledged in the person that they were and how they have passed, right? 

Wakil (17:38.78)
 Hmm.
 Yeah
 
 Annalouiza (18:03.988)
 And it's not necessarily that we want to like curate our dead and dying, but we have gifts to offer those folks who don't fall into the majority, right? And I don't wanna just say it's the marginalized community, but it's the people who have different needs. I mean, there is also a part of knowing how to work with a loved one who has passed who have metal and pacemakers and you know,
 knees like there's, there's just different ways of understanding how to care for our deceased loved one's body. Right? 
 
 Tiana (18:12.769)
 Absolutely.
 
 Annalouiza (18:31.15)
 So it's, it's not necessarily it's like, and this is where you're, you're honing your skills. And I just want everybody out in the world to hear like, there's just so many different kinds of rituals around death and dying. And just because we're focused on supporting this community doesn't mean we wouldn't ever help out anybody else who needs it. Right? Like. We're here to serve.

Tiana (18:32.457)
 Mm-hmm. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I really believe that when you can support those who are often less supported or under supported, it benefits absolutely everyone, you know? 

Annalouiza (18:50.038)
 Everybody.
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (19:02.035)
 There's folks who look for certain elements out of death and dying that you might not think that they need if they're like a heterosexual person, for instance something that benefits a queer person may also benefit them and they didn't know that option was available and now they can pursue it, know.
 
 Annalouiza (19:06.056)
 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And the more we know, the more we know, the more we can share, right? Like it's just like the more you know that, you know, our Jewish brothers and sisters have death rights that are different from Muslims that are different from East Asians that are different from whatever. knowing all this information and being available to support them doesn't necessarily mean that we want to ostracize somebody else. It's just we will show up and serve as needed.
 
 Tiana (19:15.019)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (19:35.876)
 Yeah, yeah. And the other part is this gathering of community like we're getting to do here, you know, getting to meet people that we could refer to. you know, that we've got now now we know one more person that we can refer people to, you know, which is I think part of the beauty of this work is that as we reach out and start to make find our community, this community of death care care caregivers in all their different wide spectrum that they are, we've got just such a rich group of people to talk to call on if we need to.
 
 Tiana (19:35.969)
 That's right.
 
 Wakil (20:06.365)
 That's so great. Have you also, I was wondering about challenges. Have you also, said earlier that you were the only person doing this work. Have you had a challenge at all in getting other people to work with you or to find people who were interested in this?
 
 Tiana (20:21.021)
 No, not at all. I am in the process of doing a few collaborations with others, which is very exciting. Really this started because it was a space that I wanted and that didn't exist. And so I said, why not make it, which is kind of just my, it's called gay audacity…

Wakil (20:23.121)
 Yeah. That's great. Hahaha.
 
 Annalouiza (20:42.957)
 Mm-hmm. Yep.
 
 Tiana (20:48.799)
 It's, you just do the thing if it needs to be out there. And so I just started doing the thing and other people are also doing the thing and we kind of find our ways to connect. There's some really wonderful queer focused death and dying discord spaces that are drawing a bunch of people in and kind of cross pollinating each other. There's a really wonderful group of folks on social media who kind of span the globe who are connected with each other, referring to each other and supporting each other having conversations with each other. 
 
 There's some really wonderful panels that I got to be first a part of and organize later on going through the conference called Lifting the Lend, which I believe is happening later this month. And so for the last three years, there have been queer, 2SLGBTQA plus panels about death and dying at this conference, which have been recorded. I think they're on YouTube. But these conversations are happening in several different spheres and they're kind of starting to coalesce which is really lovely to see.
 
 Wakil (21:24.73)
 Yeah. Yeah, really wonderful. And that kind of leads to this question about what helps you feel supported. So obviously the gathering of community, but are there other things that help you feel like you're supported in this work?
 
 Tiana (22:07.529)
 Absolutely. Really, one thing that I always am happy about is when my literal family members are asking me about it. You know, just like, what is that weird stuff you do again? What have you been up to? Always talking about death, you know, just getting feedback from people who are kind of outside of my queer community, but who are curious about it, are seeing the value, understand that it's a passion of mine is really fueling me. 

But really also the positive feedback from folks who come to the debt salons especially. I get lots of messages and requests about, you know, just how lovely it is to go into a space and be able to talk about your hard things and completely be yourself and be completely at ease knowing that other people get it. They're not going to you know, look at you weird if you say partner or if you say partners or whatever, you know, there's a base level understanding and just seeing and hearing the expressions of relief from the people in my community about that is really nourishing.
 
 Wakil (23:10.812)
 All right.
 
 Annalouiza (23:26.466)
 That's wonderful. Yep. Yeah, that's a safe space, right?
 
 Wakil (23:26.484)
 yeah, yeah. Beautiful.
 
 Tiana (23:31.169)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (23:32.604)
 Yeah, thanks for creating that.
 
 Annalouiza (23:34.241)
 Yes.
 
 Tiana (23:34.977)
 That's the thing also about safe spaces is if I'm creating a safe space, it's particular in the ways that it's safe. It's impossible to be safe for every person. But of course, I'm always open for feedback about how to improve things or how to open it up so more people feel at ease. And that's part of my own skill building as I move into becoming a more adept facilitator.
 Wakil (24:02.48)
 Yeah, it sounds like you're doing a really good job of defining the place they're stepping into so they know kind of what to expect. that's great. I'm glad you did. Yeah, that's really great. That's really beautiful.
 
 Tiana (24:08.992)
 Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:16.492)
 Yes. So Tiana, have you spent any time thinking about what frightens you about the end of life?
 
 Tiana (24:25.343)
 Yes, so much. So much. I think one of the things that really got me into death care is that I became terrified of dying at around the same time that I came out. Before I came out, I was married in a like heterosexual marriage in the suburbs, had some kids and didn't feel like it was my life, you know?

Annalouiza (24:35.416)
 Hmm.
 
 Tiana (24:51.169)
 And after I left that situation and started living a life that I enjoyed and living a life that I wanted to live, I became terrified that I would lose it. And I became, you know, like those kinds of irrational, like, gut feelings where I was like, I'm probably getting hit by a bus today. 

Wakil (25:11.772)
 You
 
 Annalouiza (25:11.85)
 wow.
 
 Tiana (25:22.827)
 Just those kinds of things. And I was like, this level of anxiety is not great. And so that's when I really got into learning about death to kind of just like ease that anxiety. I'm gonna say that's part of my Capricorn nature is to just plan around an insecurity. 
 
 Wakil (25:28.294)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (25:29.527)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (25:52.105)
 So I was terrified about it. And so now I would say that fear has really eased. And now my fears are more about my children. You know, like if I died right this moment, would they be okay? Have I done enough to...make sure that they feel loved by me for the rest of their lives. 

Wakil (25:56.028)
 Hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (26:09.154)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tianna (26:18.339)
 That is probably like, other than that, I'm like, that's fine. I can deal with whatever happens to me after death. I don't feel too worried about afterlife or not. Good place, bad place. Like that's kind of outside of my belief system. So I'm really just worried about how my kids will be if I die.
 
 Annalouiza (26:18.868)
 How old are your kids?
 
 Tiana (26:20.609)
 13 and 16. So, you know, every minute they're getting closer to okay.
 
 Wakil (26:26.012)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (26:27.168)
 Yes, I understand that. I have a 15 year old and an 18 year old. But they have spent their entire lives, I mean, their entire lives having me talk about death and dying. So yeah, I feel like they're OK. They know I love them. It's going to be fine. They're going to fight about my toys. But yeah.
 
 Tiana (26:30.537)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (26:49.692)
 Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that, you know, my kids are older, of course, and but they, they still I still think that that's one of the more important things. When we talk about this with people, it's almost always comes up is making sure that you've done all the, you know, love you’s and the forgiveness and take care of these things. Because, you know, we don't know it could be today, it could be tomorrow. So don't wait.
 
 Tiana (26:49.929)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (27:14.904)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah, the I love you’s.
 
 Wakil (27:18.492)
 Don't wait to tell everybody, don't wait to forgive and the forgiveness is and apologies and also, you know, forgiving yourself for those places. So important to remember. So thank you for that reminder. Is there anything else that could help you be that keeps you keeps you resourced basically that practices or prayers or.
 
 Tiana (27:20.811)
 Hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (27:31.8)
 Yes.
 
 Wakil (27:44.112)
 time in the woods or things that just can help you kind of find your way or to support you when you're feeling these fears, or just in general, because this can be this can be tough work.
 
 Annalouiza (27:54.486)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (27:54.667)
 Yeah, you nailed it with time in the woods with me. Absolutely. Really bathing in nature and paying attention to the large scale cycles in nature as well as the small scale cycles in nature really helps me understand that I am nature.
 
 Annalouiza (28:19.862)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (28:20.196)
 Yeah.
 
 Tiana (28:21.921)
 And everything dies and everything is consumed and becomes something anew again. And I am part of that cycle. Nothing is wasted. Nothing is destroyed. Nothing is created. It's all just shape shifting.
 
 Annalouiza (28:27.424)
 Mm-hmm. Beautiful.
 
 Tiana (28:50.037)
 And, and yeah, it's so obvious to me every time I'm looking at a stream or a rock pushes out through the ground after a frost.you know, some mushrooms grow and one is all twisted because it grew up in a bunch of pine needles and the other one is glorious because it came up uninterrupted. But they're really clones of each other, you know. Their circumstances have determined how they express themselves, but they're the same dude. 

Annalouiza (29:03.264)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (29:03.504)
 Mm-hmm.
 
Tianna (29:08.348)
 And so, yeah, so I spend a lot of time out in the woods. Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (29:10.848)
 Ha ha ha.
Beautiful.
 
 Wakil (29:18.007)
 Yeah, yeah, we both resonate with that a lot. That's our and and I would say we've we've noticed this. That's 99 % or probably 99 % of the people we talk as this question is always comes up. We know that nature can tell us, teach us these lessons. And yeah, exactly what you said. You said that so well. And I'm sure most of us, if you didn't know this audience, get out in the woods.
 
 Tiana (29:36.661)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (29:39.67)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (29:44.257)
 But I also want to say, like I also live in an urban center and nature is everywhere. It's in the cracks in the sidewalks. It's in the lichen on the side of a building. 

Annalouiza (29:44.576)
 That's right.
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (29:57.702)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (30:02.082)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (30:03.11)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Tiana (30:07.456)
 It's in those dinky little trees that are struggling along the roadway. you can find it and you can connect with it no matter where you are.
 
 Wakil (30:07.962)
 Yeah, yeah. Turns out all of that, all those elements are even vibrating in the concrete. know, it's all there everywhere. Yeah, there's nothing that isn't that. Yeah, so thank you. Yeah, good reminders for all of us.
 
 Annalouiza (30:24.758)
 Yes. And so, do we, what's this last one?
 
 Wakil (30:30.412)
 I think we've finished actually pretty well except that we, yeah, the one we always like to end with is, there anything you wish we'd asked you about? Anything else you'd like to talk to us about?
 
 Tiana (30:41.659)
 Oh gosh, I think one thing that I would really like to make clear, because sometimes this comes up in the workshops that I give outside of community. So to organizations and such where I'm kind of helping them figure out how to give culturally competent care is that not every like…

Wakil (31:05.745)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (31:09.445)
 …that we come across is born out of oppression or hatred. You know, sometimes it's just that it hasn't been considered. And one of the things that I use as an example for this that's like, it's a hurdle, but it's neutral, is in a green burial. And I think you touched on this earlier when you were talking about, you know, dealing with metal in the body. Some green burial grounds, you know, won't allow a burial where not everything is decomposing. 

So if there's any kind of artificial anything. And folks who've had gender affirming surgeries or who use gender affirming prosthetics often have items with them that, you know, cannot be composted. 

Annalouiza (31:43.692)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (31:57.488)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (32:05.398)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (32:07.617)
 And so sometimes that comes up and it doesn't mean, you know, you're being oppressed because of your transness. It's just like a fact of the situation and so helping folks navigate those kinds of questions too. Like, you know, if I wear a packer, normally it's made of rubber. Is that going to decompose? If it's made of silicone, is that going to decompose? What can we do instead? You know, can we sew one out of cotton and stuff it with feathers to use for the burial? You know, what alternative methods can we use? Can we make breast forms out of birdseed packets? You know, like
 
 Annalouiza (32:20.696)
 Mm-hmm. Beautiful
 
 Tiana (32:37.065)
 Those kinds of things, you know. And so I think sometimes when people are like, you know, I have to figure out how to support a community that's being harmed. It's just like not just a sad story. It's also an opportunity to think of things in really creative ways, in ways that can be expressive, that can really find a creative solution that expresses who a person is. Yeah.
 
 Wakil (33:09.914)
 I love that. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, it's so affirming and yeah, that's so beautiful. Thank you. I know the folks at Recompose, we're talking a little bit about that when we went on the tour. Recompose is a natural organic reduction composting organization in Seattle. And they said that the way they do that, and it's great, they've kind of had this conversation, obviously, they've thought about this. And so they work with the people to say, well, if it isn't going to compost, we'll…
 
 Annalouiza (33:10.838)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (33:16.416)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (33:37.254)
 … take it out and we'll give it to you. So they are aware of that and they pay attention to that and it's something that they talk about. And so it's not just shuffled aside and like, we can't do that. I love that that's, that's again, you're obviously you're doing that work and I love that to get out there and say, are the things could we do and how could we do it? And so, that message needs to be in every funeral home, whether or not it's a green funeral.
 
 Tiana (33:38.987)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (33:43.949)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (33:44.171)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (33:48.246)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tiana (34:08.029)
 Mm-hmm, right, because there's a lot of rules that are just rules to be rules. There are a lot of practices that are just, you know, time-worn practices, and we can do them differently if we keep an open spirit towards it.
 
 Annalouiza (34:12.652)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (34:12.901)
 Yeah
 
 Annalouiza (34:17.88)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (34:18.15)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (34:23.712)
 Right. And that we could be okay with options, right? Like, okay, I can't get this because I've got that, but it's okay because I've got a few options. I have this and it's going to be okay. Right.
 
 Wakil (34:34.086)
 We can have this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect. Excellent. Well, thank you. Did you happen to bring a poem along to read for us?
 
 Tiana (34:35.436)
 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Tiana (34:45.601)
 So this is If I Must Die by Rafat Al-Arir born 1979 and died 2023. If I must die, you must live to tell my story, to sell my things, to buy a piece of cloth and some strings, make it white with a long tail so that a child somewhere in Gaza while looking heaven in the eye, awaiting his dad who left in a blaze and bid no one farewell, not even to his flesh, not even to himself, sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above and thinks for a moment an angel is there, bringing back love. If I must die, let it bring hope, let it be a tale.
 
 Wakil (35:43.836)
 Thank you. Thank you. Please send us a copy so we can put it in the notes. Yeah. So beautiful. 
 
 Tiana (35:47.329)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (35:47.336)
 yeah. Yes.
 
 Tiana (35:52.085)
 Yeah, you got it.
 
 Annalouiza (35:55.446)
 Yes.
 
 Wakil (36:01.056)
 Thank you so much. we really appreciate you all you're doing. And we will be in touch. I'm glad that we have you in our community.

Annalouiza (36:03.936)
 Yes, thank you so much.
 
 Tiana (36:04.911)
 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a lovely time.