Helping Children and Adults Find Meaning in Death with Rich Nisbet

In this conversation, Rich Nisbet shares his profound experiences with death, grief, and spirituality. He discusses his journey from personal loss to becoming a grief counselor, emphasizing the importance of finding meaning in death. Rich also introduces his children's book, The Life Cycle, which aims to help children understand death and the continuity of life. 

The discussion also touches on the significance of open conversations about death, the stigma surrounding spiritual experiences, and the therapeutic benefits of journaling in processing grief. Rich advocates for a holistic approach to grief that acknowledges both pain and healing. In this engaging conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of grief, trauma, and the therapeutic process. They explore how thoughts influence pain, the importance of confronting old traumas, and the challenges faced in counseling. The discussion also touches on near-death experiences and the fears surrounding death, emphasizing the evolving nature of therapy and self-discovery. We share insights on how individuals can take responsibility for their healing journey and the significance of mindfulness in processing emotions.

In the early 2000s, Rich was asked, “Have you ever been out of your body?” This question drove home the point that if you can leave your body, then you’re not your body. He relocated from Michigan to California to study philosophies, religions, processes, and methods for coaching and counseling.  

When Covid hit, Rich developed an entire series of individual coaching procedures called “Achievements.” These Achievements are like philosophical processes that people can actually do on themselves.

In 2000, Rich supported a client who was caring for his dying grandmother. He wrote out steps for his client, which they found very valuable. That prompted Rich to write a book on the subject called “When It’s Time.”  

His website contains accounts and stories of everyday people who have had out-of-the-ordinary experiences. 

His Website - Above it All

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:02.021)
 Welcome Rich Nesbitt. Thank you for joining us on End of Life Conversations. In the early 2000s, Rich was asked the question, have you ever been out of your body? This drove home the point that if you can leave your body, then that means you're not your body.
 
 He then relocated from Michigan to California to study philosophies, religions, processes, and methods for coaching and counseling. When COVID hit, Rich developed an entire series of individual coaching procedures called achievements. These achievements are like philosophical processes that a person can actually do on themselves.
  
 Wakil (00:53.306)
 In 2000, Rich supported a client who was caregiving his dying grandmother. He wrote out steps for his client, which they found very valuable. That prompted Rich to write a book on the subject called When It's Time. His website contains accounts and stories of everyday people who have had out of the ordinary experiences.
 
 It's an incredible website and incredible book, we will put links to both the website and the book in the podcast notes. So welcome, Rich. It's great to have you. We want we like to begin this question with everybody. So when did you first become aware of death?
 
 Annalouiza (01:46.459)
 Welcome, yes!
 
 Rich Nisbet (01:47.387)
 Hey, welcome. Hey, thank you.
 
 Rich Nisbet (01:58.571)
 I grew up in a really great family and pretty healthy and I didn't have much death at all. A couple of grandparents here and there, but to be honest, in 2010, my wife died from leukemia and this last 18 months, my son died and my mom and my dad died. So it's the death that I've experienced personally has been at the later part of my life.
 
 Wakil (02:29.404)
 Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow.
 
 Rich Nisbet (02:31.358)
 But like your thing said, I've been coaching and counseling people for four decades. a lot of that has been grief counseling when they have loss. I help them through it so that they can regain who they are and regain. I like to say that grief counseling, the purpose is to get rid of the excruciating pain and replace it with love and meaning.
 
 Annalouiza (02:58.663)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (02:58.812)
 Hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (02:59.902)
 Finding meaning in death is the most therapeutic, I feel.
 
 Annalouiza (03:03.984)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (03:04.812)
 Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny that, you know, similarly when my wife has just had a diagnosis that it kind of turned our lives upside down. And I remember often I've said to people, all this work I've been doing for, with, you know, Annalouiza and end of life work and hospice and et cetera, suddenly came into my life.
 
 Annalouiza (03:25.993)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (03:33.176)
 And so, you know, as you're saying, you know, this, when it comes into your life like that, even though you've been doing it as practice It's a different, it's a whole different animal in a way. It's like, okay, now I got to practice these things, right?
 
 Rich Nisbet (03:39.181)
 You're right. However, like you're the woman on the last podcast you guys did when you're aware of the actual dynamics of Us versus this physical body and the realm that is present right now that we can kind of tap into when you're aware of that death what's death death is what's dying? 
 
 Annalouiza (03:39.598)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (04:04.22)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (04:04.826)
 Right.
 
 Rich Nisbet (04:08.4)
 You know, it really changes at all. I mean and when I, and I'll tell you the one pet peeve I have of everything is when people are, get exposed to some of these other realms like out of body intuition, telepathy, near death experiences, placebo effect, lucid dreams. When people are get a touch of that, I can't believe that they don't go, whoa, I gotta find out more about this.

 Wakil (04:37.432)
 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
 
 

Rich Nisbet (04:38.4)
 What's wrong with them? Why don't they just jump into that? I mean, really, Pete Townsend from The Who, he did some drug and was out of his body and he goes, my God, I'm a spirit. I'm not my body. And he wrote Tommy, the rock opera Tommy, deaf, dumb and blind to our own spirituality. So anyway.
 
 Wakil (04:46.844)
 Ha. Hmm. Yeah. Nice. Yeah
 
 Annalouiza (04:54.251)
 Mm-hmm. it's so beautiful. You know, I love that, Rich, because it also reminds me to hold space for kids who understand this, for elders who understand this, for folks who just in this moment of when it happens, it happens, and people are like, who's that kooky person, right? I am that kooky person, and I keep talking about it. And I don't know why people are so excited.
 
 Rich Nisbet (05:18.778)
 Yeah, but it.
 
 Annalouiza (05:22.759)
 That's another realm. Let's talk.
 
 Rich Nisbet (05:23.735)
 It because it's home. It's home. It's the real is really have you ever noticed in songs the word home people start crying They're not crying about where they grew up. They're crying about the real home 
 
 Wakil (05:27.419)
 yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (05:32.049)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (05:36.309)
 God, I know. Kiel knows this.
 
 Wakil (05:36.518)
 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (05:52.87)
 Let me I I wanted this is this is freeform so I want to go on to happen recently that I think is very cool one of my clients has he called me and said hey on my I got a friend's who's her father just died and they don't know what to say to the three-year-old. Can you help them? 
 
 Wakil (05:57.978)
 Mmm, wow.
 
 Annalouiza (06:05.925)
 Mm-hmm.
  
 Rich Nisbet (06:21.381)
 I said, yeah, have them call me. Well, they never did. But it got me going like, yeah, what do these people say to their kids? And then I got thinking, well, why are we talking only about death? That's the end of a physical cycle. But what happened before they were born?
 
 So what I did is I recently, like I swear to God, just two weeks ago, started writing a children's book called The Life Cycle. 
 
 Wakil (06:29.404)
 Hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (06:35.739)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (06:49.061)
 And I'm having an illustrator make pretty watercolor kind of drawings. And I've got just an example here. And I want to read, it's only eight pages. So let me just read it to you really quick. Ready?
 
 Once upon a time there was a spirit in the air named Soul. He had other spirit friends there. One day Soul got very bored and decided he wanted to learn what it would be like to run in grass, play with toys, and eat birthday cake. But he didn't have any legs to run with or hands to pick up toys with or a mouth to eat cake with. He needed a body to do that.
 
 So, Soul decided to find a body he could be with. One day, Soul was walking their, no, one day, Soul saw a couple who was walking their dog. They looked nice, so he followed them around for a while. He started thinking that he would like to be in their family and that they should have a baby and name it Jamie. Well, after a few months, the woman gave birth to a beautiful boy named Jamie, and Soul moved all around that little baby.
 
 Wakil (07:50.076)
 Hmm
 
 Rich Nisbet (07:50.551)
 Jamie would grow bigger and bigger and soon would be able to run and grass, play with toys and eat cake. He was so happy. Then it's got these pictures of running and grass, playing with toys and eating cake. 
 
 Wakil (08:02.062)
 and eating cake. Beautiful.
 
 Rich Nisbet (08:17.268)
 Jamie got older and went to school. He made friends there and learned a lot about how things worked in the world. After a few years, Jamie became a man, met a nice woman and they created a family of their own.
 
 Jamie learned a lot about being a dad and helping children. After a long time, Jamie's body got old and it stopped working.
 
 Soul then moved away from that body and he went back into the air with all his other spirit friends. He told them about everything he had learned when he was Jaime. Now he watches over his family and will always love them. Soul continues to learn and create new adventures. The end, wait, beginning.
 
 Wakil (08:50.492)
 Beautiful. Now that's a unique entry.
 
 Annalouiza (08:55.707)
 Yeah, Rich, okay, so today we're gonna have a very different podcast. Here we are. is, so Rich, my son's name is Sol. 
 
 Rich Nisbet (09:04.981)
 Yeah. S-O-U-L? okay, yeah..
 
 Annalouiza (09:23.867)
 It's actually Sol, like the sun. And tomorrow's his birthday. He's gonna be 16. And it just, your story really has done something to me somatically. I'm feeling a lot. But I also wanted to share with you that during COVID, I was gifted an hour with an intuitive, which I'd never done. I never thought about doing it. And I had asked her a question about my relationship with my mother, but in the end, she ended up asking me about the kids, my two children. And she said, there were these two souls who saw you come back to be a conduit of love and light into this world. 

Rich Nisbet (09:58.152)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (10:09.728)
 Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (10:21.029)
 And they decided to level up and join you because they wanted you to be the teacher. And so as you read that, I imagined the soul of Sol and Lucero, because I have two starlight names. And yeah, the story is not about just the right here and now the life cycle of Earth. It's about, you know. Yeah, teaching kids that it's before and continuously, right? 

Rich Nisbet (10:41.339)
 yeah.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (10:50.811)
 It doesn't end. And another thought I had is that I get these questions too. How do you talk to a kid about death? And people also ask me about like, how do you talk about sexuality? I'm like, you talk about sexuality from the very beginning. You talk about death and dying from the very beginning. And then it's a natural conversation. 

And I mean, my kids have grown up with me being very death positive in our household talking about the cycle of the seasons and everything. So talking about death is not that big a deal anymore. And they can come to their own conclusions around what is actually life and souls and all this. And they also can marry that into their own thoughts with, you know, it's normal. This is what happens. This is what has been happening. It's OK. So I really, truly appreciate your book. And I appreciate this moment with you because it's, means something and I won't know until later, but thank you. appreciate it.
 
 Rich Nisbet (10:59.336)
 No. Yeah. You are so welcome.
 
 Wakil (11:18.032)
 Yeah, thanks.
 
 Rich Nisbet (11:25.95)
 In counseling, you've got to get to the beginning of the incident. If you're doing the therapy where they tell you the trauma, well, I got in the car and I went down in the stoplight and someone ran into me and I was in the hospital and it took three, if you're going to have them process that out and it's not resolving, you've got to say, did it start earlier?
 
 Annalouiza (11:51.559)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (11:51.974)
 Hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (11:52.872)
 They're like, oh yeah, I had an argument with a girlfriend. Yeah, and I was all spaced out and I got in the car. And then it gets away for it. They release from it when they find the full incident from the beginning. 

Wakil (11:56.87)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (12:05.391)
 Right, right.
 
 Rich Nisbet (12:23.003)
 Therefore, when you tell the kid, well, grandma died and went to heaven. Well, what do you mean grandma died and went to heaven? Her whole body went up? 

Wakil (12:24.642)
 Right, yeah, that's the story.
 
 

Rich Nisbet (12:25.003)
 So you gotta start at the beginning. And like you picked up on it. It's like we all have an inkling of what home is and what the truth is. And when it hits you, boy, it's just glorious, isn't it?
 
 Annalouiza (12:25.211)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (12:30.876)
 Yeah, yeah, you can feel it. You can really feel it. You know, I was I was the reason I got up for a minute there was I was looking, couldn't find it. But I wrote a children's book for my kids, for my daughters when they were young, which was similar in a way. I'd love to send you a copy. It's it's called The Star Dancing Girls. And it was about my daughters. Well, it was about two stars dancing in the sky and and just being good friends. 
 
 Annalouiza (12:31.129)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (12:45.361)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (12:47.75)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (12:58.862)
 So they saw the earth and they said, we want to go there. You know, that looks cool. and and then when they went to the earth, the well, they went and talked to father, son, and he said, here's how that happens. You pick a body and pick a family and they picked a family they they became they were in. And so the way this started, the real part of this part that was made into a story was my wife had was conceived twins and one of the twins died before it was born. You know, so, so that was real life, right? And then we had another baby, magic baby, you know, 18 months later. And and so the way the star dancing girls goes is that the two twin or the two stars were in the womb. And one of them said, I'm really missing the stars. I need to go back. And she went back. And then but later she said, well, I'm really missing my sister. so that's the story. Yeah. So I love that.
 
 Rich Nisbet (13:44.409)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (13:49.561)
 And she came back.
 
 Rich Nisbet (13:53.55)
 That's awesome.
 
 Wakil (13:56.698)
 But what I love about what you said and what we're talking about here is that whole sense that we are not just this right now. We are this right now. We are only this right now. But also there's that whole spectrum of what came before and that that's all part of us as well. So that's so beautiful. Thank you for doing that.
 
 Annalouiza (14:06.247)
 That's right.
 
 Rich Nisbet (14:15.341)
 Thank you. This is the book I wrote on helping people at the end of life when it's time. Now, in the middle is a chapter called Strange Magic. And it's all about paranormal and metaphysical phenomena. Because when you're around death, and there's stories from all these clients I've had over the years.
 
 Annalouiza (14:21.403)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (14:21.723)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (14:33.927)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (14:33.98)
 Mm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (14:42.074)
 And quite a few of them talk about communication with deceased loved ones telepathy and intuition, lucid dreams where they know something's gonna happen, and picking your parents. Like, for example, one woman woke up at 3 a.m., she's pregnant, right? Right in the middle of the night, and she gets this communication, the baby's name is Madeline.
 
 Wakil (15:13.628)
 Wow.
 
 Rich Nisbet (15:15.065)
 She like out loud goes, yeah, okay. It was the intention was so strong that baby's name is Madeline. Okay. And then she went to work the next day and her boss comes up and hands her a pad, a paper. He goes, I was in Walgreens last night and are you naming your baby, baby Madeline? It said letters from Madeline. She hadn't told anybody. And then she went to a church event and someone came up and goes, I had a dream that you're naming your baby Madeline. Is that right?
 
 Wakil (15:18.426)
 Hahaha.
 Well, she better not go away from that,
 
 Rich Nisbet (15:45.973)
 It was that.
 
 Annalouiza (15:48.037)
 Yeah. You know, as you're saying all these things, it's like, I have encountered that in myself. Like when I was pregnant with my son, I had that dream. His name is Sol Joaquin just had it. was three. I was three months pregnant, had the dream. And I even told my then husband, I'm like, you can decide to have a list of potential names. That is the only name that I will put on that list. And I'm not going to like, that's going to be it. And he never actually formed his own list.
 
 Rich Nisbet (16:01.581)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (16:16.549)
 The day I had the baby, we still hadn't talked about the name, but he came back and he's like, yeah, I told all the neighbors it's Sol Joaquin. 
 
 Rich Nisbet (16:22.697)
 No way! That's awesome!
 
 Annalouiza (16:24.046)
 And I was like, yeah, like, like it just, he just was like, that's it. Right. And so, yeah, I, and I never thought that was really strange, but maybe it is like,
 
 Rich Nisbet (16:33.163)
 There's some Kabbalah, some of these mystical religions think the soul is present seven days before conception. So seven days before, you know what, and if you saw the movie Fantasia by Disney, 
 
 Annalouiza (16:41.415)
 Mmm.
 
 Wakil (16:46.683)
 Yeah
 
 Annalouiza (16:50.256)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (17:00.63)
 … there's a scene, I think of the Greek mythology, where the cupids are up there and there's a couple and they shoot the arrow, boom, and all of a the couple's like, So the soul is present before the body is even conceived. And that's why I put in this book, another aspect of my little book is all the near-death people say that they feel our purpose is to learn. And they hadn't learned enough in their earlier life, so they had to come back and do it again, so they learn. And that's why I put...
 
 Annalouiza (17:06.405)
 Yeah.
 
 Wakil (17:07.258)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (17:25.852)
 Saul wanted to learn. He learned how to be a dad. He learned a lot in school. He told his friends what he learned being a human.
 
 Annalouiza (17:28.091)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. it's so beautiful. I'm just so, I'm smitten.
 
 Wakil (17:33.358)
 Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love you know, I love this kind of full circle. If we go back to what we were talking about at the beginning is that this is acknowledging that these things are real and that those that they're as real as anything else. And as you said, people who don't acknowledge that and who stifle that for some reason out of fear or…
 
 Annalouiza (17:54.983)
 culture.
 
 Rich Nisbet (17:59.635)
 Yeah.
 
 Wakil (18:03.948)
 … or, you know, afraid that people culture. Yeah. And our culture is totally guilty of that. You know, like the woman you were talking about that who was afraid to tell anybody, Libby, she was afraid to tell anybody because she was afraid she'd be tossed into the psycho room, you know, and there's still, even though it's less so maybe than it was when she was young, it's still a case of people, it's still a stigma attached to you saying, you know, well, I had this experience. People will still look at you like you obviously don't have all your marvels there, know? Yeah. Or as Annalouiza was saying, you you might be asked to leave the dinner, you know.
 
 Annalouiza (18:32.442)
 or never invited back.
 
 Wakil (18:34.124)
 Hahaha
 
 Rich Nisbet (18:35.654)
 If you deliver it though with complete confidence and as a matter of fact, a lot of people go, that happened to me. my God, that happened to me. 
 
 Annalouiza (18:44.017)
 Yes, yes, yes.
 
 Wakil (18:44.774)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (19:04.665)

Now when my son passed, I did the memorial for him. He was 27. He was with his hockey buddies down in New Orleans for a bachelor party and they decided to do a little blow to have fun and it was fentanyl and he died instantly. All that stuff come over the border. Anyway.
 
 Wakil (18:59.57)
 Ugh, ugh.
 
 Rich Nisbet (19:33.309)
 I was doing the memorial for him with my parents and all these relatives. And afterwards, my nephew came up to me. And now these are straight ahead science, no spirit, no religion. They're all like modern day people. And he goes, Uncle Richard, I got to tell you something that happened. He's in the finance industry, like Edward Jones kind of finances, where he has clients that come in to invest. This woman came in, his client, said, you gotta set up an account for my grandson. And he's like going through the papers, I didn't know you had a grandson. She goes, yeah, I didn't either. What happened? She said, well, you remember when my son passed at 40? She had a 40-year-old son that died in a car accident a year ago. Well, she was in her car recently, and she said, I'm driving, and all of a sudden, there's my son in the car, and my hair was up on my, and he's in there and I feel, mean, I see him kind of, and he says, Mom, you missed an email. You gotta check your email, Mom. And then, boom, gone.
 
 Wakil (20:15.078)
 Ha ha.
 
 Rich Nisbet (20:18.585)
 And she was like driving, she's like, my God, whatever, I don't even know if I know her. So she gets home and she opens her laptop and she starts scrolling and all of a sudden there's one unopened email. And she opens it up and it says, you don't know me, but I had a relationship with your son and I just delivered a baby boy and the DNA shows that it's his, you're a grandma.
 
 Wakil (20:47.388)
 Ha ha ha ha ha. Wow. Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (20:50.164)
 Wow. I just got goosebumps.
 
 Rich Nisbet (20:53.249)
 I know. And this came from my nephew Joe who just has, you know, he's never talked about spiritual things with anybody. That's why he pulled me aside because he knew I would.
 
 Wakil (21:01.614)
 Yeah, right, don't tell anybody. Right, right.
 
 Annalouiza (21:01.211)
 Yeah, I love that. I love that. my gosh. I was just so I was part of the Denver Film Festival that happened this last weekend. I got a chance to talk to somebody and we were talking about death and she said she's reading a book about how to prepare for the afterlife, 
 
 Rich Nisbet (21:19.737)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (21:26.117)
 Like make a plan with somebody so that they can keep watch for any signs that you're around. I was like, I was scrolling around trying to find that name of the book, but I'm like, I'm in, let's do this. Let's have some fun.
 
 Rich Nisbet (21:31.106)
 Yeah.
 
 Wakil (21:31.686)
 I'll do that with you.
 
 Annalouiza (21:35.799)
 I know you will, Wakil, for sure.
 I love it. Rich, this is so fun talking to you. Death positivity.
 
 Wakil (21:45.34)
 Yeah, exactly.
 
 Rich Nisbet (21:48.068)
 Yeah, totally.
 
 Annalouiza (21:50.385)
 All right, well, wait a second. Let's get back to like business at hand here, because we need to tell our subscribers, like, you know, what is it that you do? What are you doing professionally?
 
 Rich Nisbet (22:01.343)
 So the counseling was one-on-one, right? Helping people through loss, helping them find their abilities that they buried, finding old decisions that are keeping them from progressing now. And it was I had a huge practice up in Chicago and we moved to California and COVID hit. And that's when I developed these, you know what journaling is? Well, how about journaling with exact directives or questions to go from. I've got a program people can do at home, it's very inexpensive, it's called Life After Loss. 
 
 Wakil (22:39.036)
 Hmm.
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (22:55.931)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (22:57.696)
 And I have them journal their exact questions because time does not heal. People think it does only because over enough time they have processed it. But what if you process it in a two week period by journaling the right things? And all of a sudden now you can live your life without all the horrible pain. you can, so that's worked really well for me is, and basically I talked about this whole spirit, body, mind thing, because if you've got that mindset, helping someone at the end of life is so much easier and so much, so much more spiritual.
 
 Annalouiza (23:23.205)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (23:24.949)
 You have to ask people what's going to happen when your body's gone. Ask them what they think and get them to talk about it because no one else is asking them that. And that's what's on their mind. So when you say, what do you think is going to happen? They're like inside, they're so relieved that someone's going to actually bring it up because it's the elephant in the room.
 
 Annalouiza (23:48.517)
 Yes, yes. Just a quick question though, Rich. Do you think there's any space for pain to be a part of your life for an extended period of time, or do we need as humans in our path to clear that pain out as quickly as possible?
 
 Rich Nisbet (24:10.204)
 I don't know, it depends if you want to live with it, you can. It seems to me that, like what comes first, the thought or the emotion? What comes first, you think?
 
 Annalouiza (24:23.067)
 I think it's a thought for me.
 
 Rich Nisbet (24:24.524)
 So if you keep your thoughts going that create pain, well, that's what's happening. But if you can take a look at the thoughts that are, see, the mind is a great, the mind's a great servant, but a terrible master, remember that? 
 
 Annalouiza (24:41.529)
 Right, right, yep.
 
 Wakil (24:41.926)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (24:54.345)
 So if you're following your mind, your mind's controlling it, and your so-called loss isn't authentic. It's just being, it's driving you, and you're not at, you're at the effect of your own thoughts. So if you write these thoughts down, and I'll just give you one on this program I made. Write down what you feel you should have done to prevent your loved one dying. 
 
 Annalouiza (24:56.741)
 Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (25:10.918)
 right?
 
 Rich Nisbet (25:23.315)
 Because that shit's going on. And if you put it down and you can start reading it, you'll start going, wait a minute, this is ridiculous. And of sudden it shifts. Everything shifts. And the pain kind of subsides. And now you can have more of a close relationship with the one you love.
 
 Annalouiza (25:26.255)
 Hmm. Interesting.
 
 Wakil (25:28.516)
 I maybe what I think maybe at least this is what I'm picking up to is we also really in the work we've done and work we've done with all these different people, we've often speak about the importance of feeling the feels, feeling all the feels, you know, because we don't want to stifle that, you know, we don't want people to just push things aside. We want them to go to feel it. Right. And so I think that's the point maybe that Annalouiza was getting to perhaps. I don't know. I don't want to make your point for you.
 
 Annalouiza (25:55.359)
 I think, I think that's true. was just trying to have an open ended kind of question around that because it's interesting that, you know, yes, grief and loss is painful. 

Rich Nisbet (25:48.81)
 Right. It's horrible.
 
 Wakil (25:59.652)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (26:23.853)
 And, sometimes we - actually had somebody who said they went for an entire year. Remember who was that? Who, who did an entire year of feeling just so lost and the bereavement part, you know, and, and, and that actually came when this person came out of it, they felt like it was good. It was needed to have done for that time. And I love the idea of processing as you as you're able to, get to the bottom of what is going on. I think there's a both and right? Like different people will process differently.
 
 Rich Nisbet (26:27.114)
 Can I just point out to you, you find out someone's died, you're not gonna sit down with a pen and paper, start writing, believe me. You're gonna have that period of shock where you can't function in any capacity.
 
 Annalouiza (26:54.405)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (26:55.175)
 And I'm included in that. When I found out my son died, and I was a mess for a couple weeks. And I swear to God, it didn't start evaporating, the excruciating pain till I, and I said, well, I gotta take my own medicine. I started fighting. I did the whole thing. my God, and the tears and the horrible, I didn't wanna wait a year though for that shit to come out. I did it when I was ready, and I'm gonna confront it now.
 
 Wakil (27:00.171)
 yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (27:02.247)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (27:14.317)
 yeah.
 
 Wakil (27:15.366)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (27:17.893)
 Mm-hmm.
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (27:21.584)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (27:24.57)
 And I'm going to write down everything, who I blame for his death, what I should have done. And all of it was just ridiculous. There's a book by Byron Katie called Loving What Is. And in my mind, he died too early. 
 
 Annalouiza (27:32.857)
 Mmm.
 
 Wakil (27:43.002)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (27:45.883)
 We don't know.
 
 Wakil (27:48.091)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (27:48.676)
 Right. Right.
 
 Wakil (27:53.116)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (27:53.511)
 Is that true though? Maybe he died when he was supposed to. So our thoughts dictate our pain. So.
 And everyone does process it differently, but boy, you can speed up the process if you just confront what's actually going on in your mind and reevaluate all of that stuff. It's garbage. Most of it's garbage.
 
 Wakil (28:01.146)
 Yeah, yeah. It turns out as
 
 Annalouiza (28:05.613)
 Right. Yeah. Have you ever read the Untethered Soul?
 
 Rich Nisbet (28:10.489)
 No, I know that book. got it. I have it. It's kind of...
 
 Annalouiza (28:14.095)
 Listen, just listen to it in audiobook. I have been listening to that for about six years. Once or twice a year, I listen to it, because it's so soothing to me, but it always reminds me, whose thought is that? 
 
 Rich Nisbet (28:19.238)
 Yeah.
 
 Wakil (28:19.813)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (28:26.679)
 I know!

Annalouiza
 Who's telling you that thought? Like, you know, like figure that out first. I'm like, okay, okay.
 
 Wakil (28:31.228)
 it's so true.
 
 Rich Nisbet (28:34.768)
 Well, you know, we can't be upset by anything, by any person or any situation. It's only our attachments to thoughts about it.
 
 Annalouiza (28:43.887)
 Right, right. so good.
 
 Wakil (28:44.092)
 Yeah, Beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Tell us, tell us. go ahead.
 
 Rich Nisbet (28:49.198)
 And in my counseling, I've found that old decisions that have been, and during trauma, the dog bites you when you're three years old and you make a decision, I'm not gonna trust my parents. How could they let me on the yard when a dog was gonna bite me?
 
 Annalouiza (29:08.741)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (29:08.945)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (29:12.37)
 So now they get into relationship and they got problems because they don't trust and all that stuff. So when you find the old thoughts and old decisions buried in trauma and loss, it all turns around. So they've lived with pain and distrust for their whole life, but was it really real?
 
 Wakil (29:28.38)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to retrain your mind to and by writing it out, by processing it, you get a chance to do that. You get a chance to go back and find that first trigger because we all are in this reactivity state where we just I mean, that's a pretty normal thing to do. You know, we get triggered, we react. And so we do have an opportunity right there to stop. And I think Thich Nhat Hanh was saying something like, you know, we have a we have a choice to notice our trigger.
 
 Annalouiza (29:37.564)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (29:38.197)
 Yep.
 
 Wakil (29:57.486)
 and make a choice. we react or do we think? Do we write it down? Do we say, wait a minute, what really happened here? So that's good. Or let it go for now, yeah. So yeah, it's choices we have. But knowing.
 
 Annalouiza (29:58.823)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (30:03.75)
 Or do we let it go by, right? Or just like, yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (30:08.208)
 Well, the meditative thing is definitely let thoughts just occur and don't protest. If you're protesting, you're stuck to it.
 
 Wakil (30:21.072)
 Yeah. Yeah. So we'd love to carry this through a little further. Can you tell us the kind of challenges you've had with doing this work or with, know, in this, I guess, you know, with your work or with, you know, people's
 
 Rich Nisbet (30:36.301)
 You've got to enter the case at the level they can understand and agree with. 
 
 Wakil (30:41.445)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (31:07.07)
 So if we start talking early on, like the stuff we're talking about right now, it's going to invalidate their feelings. 
 
 Annalouiza (30:51.313)
 their feelings, right?
 
 Wakil (31:10.972)
 Mm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (31:34.722)
 You can't go, hey, you're never going to die. Don't worry. Your grandma's not dead. She's just floating around looking at you. You have got to enter in the right spot. And that's always a challenge to make sure that you don't overshoot the person you're in front of like victimization is a good place to start. Tell me how you feel about that. well, I've, you know, let them go through until they trust you to a point. And I've noticed that in my practice, if someone was taking medication for their depression and anxiety, it was always a little bit of a liability because during the therapy or whatever you want to call it, the coaching, they would be climbing out of the victim mentality into I'm responsible for 100 % for my, and they didn't like it. 
 
 Annalouiza (31:46.16)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (31:46.566)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (32:03.43)
 Hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (32:03.775)
 Because they thought the pill was responsible for it, or they thought their diagnosis, bipolar, or whatever they were told was their problem. So that's always a kind of an issue of the level of responsibility can they take for their situation.
 So that's a challenge, huh? 

Wakil (32:02.214)
 Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, definitely, yeah.
 
 

Rich Nisbet (32:03.775)
 Just like at the dinner party, who's gonna listen to you and who's not gonna listen to you, right? About a small percent will go, that happened to me. 
 
 Annalouiza (32:15.685)
 Right. Yeah.
 
 Rich Nesbit(32:17.691)
 I didn't, you know, but 80 % will go, you're crazy, you know, that's good. You're conspiracist, I know.
 
 Annalouiza (32:21.809)
 That's okay. That's okay. So what do you do to feel supported in the work that you do? What practices or rituals do you do to keep yourself grounded?
 
 Rich Nisbet (32:35.221)
 Well, I always keep studying. I read a book by Bruce Grayson recently, “After”. Have you heard of that book? He read the book your other girl was talking about, Moody, who wrote Life After Life. And Grayson had a near, he had a patient, attempted suicide patient, and he was no spiritual bone in his body, total, you're dead, blackout, all science, no metaphysical nothing.
 
 And one of his patients who was almost dead from a drug overdose, he went to the room and she wasn't responding and he put her in the ER and then went down to a different place in the hospital and there her roommate was. And the roommate was pacing back and forth and he goes, what drugs did your roommate take? Because she found the roommate on the floor in the bathroom. And my God, I know, I don't know, she take it, I go, she's got it.
 
 And it was about a 20 minute conversation. Well, the next day he went to the patient and she was now conscious. So they had revived her. She had a near death experience, but he didn't know about that. And he goes, hi, I'm Dr. Grayson. She goes, yeah, I know you are. He goes, you do? Well, I thought you were unconscious last night when I came into the room. She goes, no, not here. You were with my roommate down the hall talking to her about the medications I take. And she was pacing back and forth and you had that stand and he was like, whoa.
 
 Wakil (34:01.221)
 What?
 
 Rich Nisbet (34:06.089)
 So then he went to the University of Michigan, I think it was, six years later. Never told his wife, never told anybody. And that's where Moody was, the guy that wrote Life After Life. And that's when he wrote his book about all those near-death experiences. And I wanted to point out one thing to you guys that is kind of one of the best scientific theories that I've ever heard. 

How is it that people with no brain activity can enter the realm of where they go, the metaphysical, no time, no space, no location, all love…
 
 Wakil (34:51.599)
 All light, yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (35:03.005)
 Deceased relatives coming up to you. How do they enter that if their brain is not working?
 Grayson decided and pretty much researched the fact is our brain, which everybody says is the greatest thing on earth, is a filter. Aldous Huxley said the same thing. It's a reducing filter. It only allows frequencies, wavelengths, considerations, concepts that will help this animal survive. 
 Wakil (35:12.476)
 Mmm.
 
 Annalouiza (35:24.935)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (35:25.264)
 Right.
 
 Rich Nisbet (35:31.938)
 So this body needs food, sex, and sleep. And all we're going to get is that amount of filters. So when the brain dies or you take acid or LSD and it reduces, now the world opens up, the realm, the metaphysical realm opens up. I thought that was just amazing.
 
 Wakil (35:44.892)
 Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (35:47.867)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (35:48.73)
 And that's on my website. That's why I said it's three above it all 360 music motorcycles and the metaphysical because music people can cry when they hear music. How come they're crying? Where's that coming from? How come Paul McCartney wrote yesterday in his sleep? Where is that coming from? That's the realm that he touched into more riding motorcycles or kites or for rock climbing or camping or hiking in nature. Those things bring us close to nature in that metaphysical realm. People say it's my religion, hiking is my religion. 
 
 Annalouiza (36:22.389)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (36:23.984)
 Yes, yes. Yeah.
 
 Rich Nesbit (36:31.406)
 And so I'm trying to point out to people, it's all around you right now. All you have to do is acknowledge it when it happens.
 
 Wakil (36:31.77)
 Yeah, yeah, open to it. Yeah. I know with all the, lot of the, the newer technology or new treatments with mushroom treatments and ayahuasca and those kinds of things. most of the time, what people are coming out of that with is that that, reconnection that you're talking about that noticing that, yeah, we actually are connected to everything. Wow.
 
 Annalouiza (36:48.145)
 That's right.
 
 Rich Nisbet (36:52.027)
 Well, I think it wasn't didn't the CIA want want to create kind of mind control people and use LSD but it backfired because it would became the summer of love and it peed and I don't want to go to war. shit. 
 
 Wakil (36:59.196)
 Of course they always do.
 
 Annalouiza (37:08.443)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (37:20.154)
 The thing about drugs, I mean you do it once and you get a kind of in that realm, but I don't really purport to doing it too much because it eventually destroys the body and then your toast anyway.
 
 But if you get a glimpse of it and you start researching, now you start meditating, you start kind of really finding out that would be valid.
 
 Annalouiza (37:25.329)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Annalouiza (37:28.995)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (37:29.27)
 Mm Yeah. And you can find the exact same thing like Annalouiza and I both agree and every pretty much 90 % of the people we talked to agree just walking down into the woods.
 
 Annalouiza (37:41.211)
 Or taking a deep breath, right? Like really feeling the body just, it's what?
 
 Rich Nisbet (37:42.713)
 Yup.
 
 Rich Nisbet (37:46.254)
 You're right. Yeah, right. We tend to go on automatic, don't we? That's what I mean about the, don't let the mind lead you. You need to lead the mind. Because the mind is just a survival mechanism.
 
 Wakil (38:04.7)
 My teacher says just don't let that. he got the nafs or the ego. Don't let they come. They're there. They have an important reason to be there. Your mind, you know, as an important to keep you survive like to help you survive, you know, but but you can't let him drive the bus. 
 
 Rich Nisbet (38:15.417)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (38:18.415)
 Right, right.
 
 Annalouiza (38:23.367)
 okay.
 
 Rich Nisbet (38:30.974)
 Dude, I could go for three hours.
 
 Wakil (38:33.868)
 So. Right, alright, we're getting close to where we should try to end here, so yeah.
 I know, I know.
 
 Annalouiza (38:35.333)
 to go hang out with you. Like, I think we'd have a blast.

Wakil
 We should do that sometimes, definitely
 
 Rich Nisbet (38:39.339)
 Well, we got the same kind of shirt on. Yep, that's right.
 
 Annalouiza (38:41.596)
 Denim?
 
Annalouiza (38:59.353)
 What frightens you about the end of life?
 
 Rich Nisbet (39:01.579)
 What frightens me about it?
 
 I'm pretty much my daughters and my wife and everybody doing good and freaking out that's it's not about me really. It's more about worrying about those guys 
 
 Wakil (39:10.16)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (39:16.443)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Wakil (39:16.806)
 Sure, yeah, yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (39:33.397)
 And It's interesting because one of the steps in my book. I mean my I don't know if you can tell but I use the word metaphysical versus spiritual because I think spiritual has kind of gone into so many like crystals and candles and I like nuts and bolts. ride my motorcycle through the countryside and all of I'm out of my body like whoa!
 
 Wakil (39:33.702)
 Yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (39:41.425)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Rich Nisbet (39:45.942)
 I can't remember what I was going to say now. was... 
 
 Annalouiza (39:48.185)
 End of life frightens you.
 
 Wakil (39:49.946)
 Yeah.
 
 Rich Nisbet (40:14.453)
 Yeah, it frightens me that they... a lot of the stuff in my book, there's several steps to take with someone at the end of life, and they're very, very practical. You know, the spirit, mind, body thing, you got to go over that with them. And just give them maybe the thought that maybe you're not going to die. Have you ever thought of that? I had a woman from Australia who read the book and said... my mom's dying, what should I say to her? I said, well, go over the spirit, mind, body thing and the fact that maybe if she considers she's a spirit, I mean, she's lived before and she's gonna continue to live, she's gonna live again. And she did that, and you what her mom said? Well, honey, you know, I've always known I had a past life, I just didn't know they went by so quickly.
 
 Wakil (40:36.54)
 That's so great. Wow. I love it. That's great. Yeah, I think we've often had that same response is that mostly what we when we work in this world, you know, we don't have a fear of the actual happening of death or what's going to be there. We don't know. It's a mystery and we live in acceptance of that mystery. But we do worry about our
 
 Annalouiza (40:42.03)
 yeah.
 
 Annalouiza (40:55.548)
 Right.
 
 Wakil (41:04.624)
 beloveds, you who's going to be left over and how is it going to be for them? and are we doing, are we doing everything we can to make sure that, that they're taken care of and that, you know, that they don't have a hard time. And that's, that's the hardest part, I think.
 
 Rich Nisbet (41:07.069)
 Yeah.
 Yeah, remember that woman. The reason she came back was for her daughter.
 
 Wakil (41:20.432)
 Yeah, and she didn't even have a daughter yet.
 
 Rich Nisbet (41:22.197)
 Oh that's right.
 
 Annalouiza (41:22.704)
 Yeah. She hadn't appeared yet. She knew she was waiting. She wanted to be the portal.
 
 Rich Nisbet (41:28.085)
 The daughter was like, like that little dude. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I was planning on being with you. You can't bail that quick.
 
 Wakil (41:34.608)
 Yeah, right, exactly. That's right, exactly. 

Annalouiza (41:42.823)
 This is awesome. So, Akil, what should we, what's the next?
 
 Wakil (42:06.672)
 Well, okay. I think let's just do this last question, which is one we always like. It's kind of sum it up, which is, is there anything you wish we had asked you and anything else you'd like to share with us before we end?
 
 Rich Nisbet (41:55.976)
 I think that people should know that years and years of therapy is not needed anymore.
 
 Wakil
 Ha ha ha ha ha 
 
 Rich Nisbet (42:09.255)
 If you ask the right questions and you don't give advice, a person can come to their own epiphanies and realizations and exhilaration and you don't need to just sit there and growl about your feelings about everything. I've got techniques that just make it go A to B, A to B and that's what I like to do in my life. And I would say that If they're interested, they can call me and we can talk and see what we could do. And I love the fact that I now don't have to rely on people coming to me. I can send them a PDF of all these exercises they can do at home. And I've done a pilot on a lot of people. one woman, sort of got it. did a free pilot on all these people during COVID. And this woman called me up and goes, hey, I want to pay you.
 
 Annalouiza (42:51.036)
 Right.
 
 Annalouiza (43:06.855)
 Yeah, that's awesome.
 
 Wakil (43:07.286)
 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
 
 Rich Nisbet (43:08.531)
 I don't feel good, but my life has changed 100 % and now I think you should be getting compensated for that. So I'm very, very happy that people can do stuff on their own, in their own home, in their own time, and they don't have to rely on driving to a therapist anymore.
 
 Annalouiza (43:21.351)
 Mm-hmm.
 Right, right. I'm curious. I'm to check it out.
 
 Wakil (43:26.428)
 That's important. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And we will, like I said, we'll put all that in the podcast notes so everybody who's listening can check it out for themselves. yeah, this has been such a fun conversation.
 
 Rich Nisbet (43:27.218)
 Okay, good. Good.
 
 Annalouiza (43:41.809)
 So fun. I would laugh so much. It's so nice. And you brought a poem. Do you want to read your poem?
 
 Rich Nisbet (43:49.975)
 Do you guys have it in front of you? You can read it. Cause I, I have it buried in my computer here.
 
 Annalouiza (43:54.951)
 All right.
 
 Wakil (43:57.82)
 Yeah, I can find it. Let me look here.
 All right. This is a poem called Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep. 
 Do not stand at my grave and weep. I am not there. I do not sleep. I am a thousand winds that blow. I am the diamond glints on snow. I am the sun on ripened grain. I am the gentle autumn rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush, I am the swift uplifting rush. Of quiet birds in circled flight, I am the soft star that shines at night. Do not stand at my grave and cry. I am not there. I did not die.
 
 by Mary Elizabeth Fry.
 
 Annalouiza (47:48.677)
 Mmm.
 
 Wakil (47:49.222)
 Let's read that again, shall we?
 
 Annalouiza (47:51.447)
 Yes we shall.
 
 Do not stand at my grave and weep. I am not there. I do not sleep. I am a thousand winds that blow. I am the diamond glints on snow. I am the sun on ripened grain. I am the gentle autumn rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush, I am the swift, uplifting rush of quiet birds in circled flight. I am the soft star that shines at night. Do not stand at my grave and cry. I am not there. I did not die. 
 
 By Mary Elizabeth Fry. 
 
 Thank you so much, Rich, for offering Mary Elizabeth Fry to us. Such a gift. So wonderful.
 
 Rich Nisbet (48:26.155)
 Your voices sound so great on that.
 
 Wakil (48:44.72)
 Yeah, yeah, and for yourself. Yeah, we really appreciate you. Appreciate your work and all you've done and are doing and blessings. And thank you so much for coming and visiting with us. 
 
 Annalouiza (48:56.721)
 Yes. Yes.
 
 Rich Nisbet (48:58.666)
 You are welcome. I'm so glad you guys are doing this.
 
 Annalouiza (49:03.695)
 And back at you.