Cultural Ritual with the Founder of A Thoughtful Death Neshia Alaovae

In this conversation, Neshia (Nee sha)  Alaovae (Alah vi) shares her profound experiences and insights on death, grief, and the importance of cultural rituals. Raised by her grandparents in Samoa, Neshia's early encounters with death shaped her understanding and approach to end-of-life care. She emphasizes the significance of rituals in navigating grief and the need for community support.  Neshia discusses her journey into death work, highlighting her current role as an end-of-life consultant, where she helps individuals, particularly young adults, confront and plan for their mortality. In this conversation, we explore the themes of midlife reflections, the importance of end-of-life planning, and the role of a death doula. We discuss how intimate connections can be fostered through conversations about death and dying the cultural rituals surrounding grief, and the challenges faced in death work. The conversation also touches on the fears surrounding the end of life and the celebration of life through death work, emphasizing the importance of community support and personal connections.

Neshia Alaovae (she/her) is a Black and Samoan, disabled mama, poet, and death worker. She cares deeply about connecting cultural wisdom, ancestral resilience, and BIPOC joy to create new, empowered possibilities for how we live and die. Her first experience of what many refer to as death doula work was in 2012 as a “Compassionate Companion” at a residential hospice in Washington, DC, that serves homeless or housing-insecure people dying of AIDS or cancer. Neshia continues to think of herself as a death companion. 

Neshia has worked as a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion trainer for faith organizations, non-profits, and institutions such as the Washington Department of Health. She is a licensed mental health counselor who spent over a decade serving people navigating trauma, grief, and cultural identity. Currently, she runs "A Thoughtful Death," a deathcare practice offering end-of-life consultation and support for people wanting a more intentional experience with dying. Neshia loves reading, eating long meals with loved ones, and trying to keep her two toddlers from eating too much dirt (a little is just right).

A Thoughtful Death Website

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:01.634)

In this episode, we are so glad to meet and talk with Neshia Alavi. Neshia is a black and Samoan woman, disabled mama, poet and death worker. She cares deeply about connecting cultural wisdom, ancestral resilience, and BIPOC joy to create new empowered possibilities for how we live and how we die. Her first experiences of what many refer to as death doula work was in 2012 as a compassionate companion at a residential hospice in Washington, DC that serves homeless or housing insecure people dying of AIDS or cancer. Neshia continues to think of herself as a death companion.
 
 

Wakil (01:03.839)

Beautiful. Neshia has worked as a diversity, equity, and inclusion trainer for faith organizations, nonprofits, and institutions such as the Washington Department of Health. She is a licensed mental health counselor who spent over a decade serving people navigating trauma, grief, and cultural identity. Currently, she runs A Thoughtful Death, a death care practice offering end-of-life consultation and support for people wanting a more intentionalfor people wanting a more intentional experience with dying. Neshia loves reading long meals with loved ones and trying to keep her two toddlers from eating too much dirt. A little is okay. 

 Neshia Alaovae (01:44.865)

Hahaha!

Annalouiza (01:46.5)

Mama, I hear you. I see you.

Neshia Alaovae (01:49.414)

You know, a little is good for the immune system, right?

Annalouiza (01:52.77)

Yeah. just let them have it. Yeah, welcome.

Wakil (02:01.823)

Wow. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We should all eat a little dirt now and then. Welcome, thanks for being with us. really appreciate you showing up and all the work you're doing. We like to start each of our episodes by asking when you first became aware of death.

Neshia Alaovae (02:10.95)

Sure. You know, I was thinking about this question and I actually, so I had the good fortune, like a lot of people do, of being raised by really amazing grandparents who absolutely spoiled me. But I was raised by my maternal grandparents in Samoa and they were pastors in small villages. And so as, you know, in their role as faith leaders, they were often the first people who were called when someone became ill, when someone was dying, and they always took me with them. 

So, you know, my first memory of death really is as a three-year-old. And I remember that I was three because one of my grandfather's best friends was dying and my Sama, my grandfather, asked me to sing him a song. And so I remember singing this song about being three and, you know, like dancing and singing and just like prancing around my grandfather's friend's deathbed. 

And. You know, and I remember that he was just like so delighted by him by it, you know, this is a man that I knew and who I loved and I remember climbing all over him, bringing him mangoes and singing him my songs and bringing him soup and watching my grandfather and my grandmother hold his hand and be with their family and talking with them. And so those were my first experiences of death, of watching my elders not be afraid of it.

Wakil (04:06.581)

Beautiful. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a blessing. think maybe that's a word record breaker for the earliest that anybody we've asked that question.

Annalouiza (04:08.408)

What a gift.

Neshia Alaovae (04:09.85)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:19.518)

It’s a beautiful piece too, because it's not a pet, right? And what I really appreciate about your story is that there's a weave of the end of life, of death transitioning, and a child and joy and hope and like presence. So that is a really beautiful first of

Wakil (04:41.12)

Yeah. Well, and also the, also the cultural aspect of it, which we are always wanting to learn more about. So that's beautiful. I hope, you know, we want to hear more about the cultural stuff because that's so important for us to understand. And in our little isolated America, the place where we think everything is about the United States, you know, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (04:59.67)

Yeah, yeah, you know, I had never heard of something called, you know, a home funeral. I'd never realized how unusual it is to be with your people all the way through the process. And I didn't realize really until like a few years ago, how many people do not have ritual, do not have customs, do not have traditions around death and grief to be able to, to turn to, right? Because I feel like so often at time of death, after death, we as humans, if we don't have those things, we feel really lost. 

Annalouiza (05:32.472)

Right.

Wakil (05:42.505)

Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (05:58.99)

We feel really hopeless and really alone. And so for those of us who come from cultures that still have these really strong and really present, there's a ritual to it. There's a protocol to it. There's this frame that helps hold us.

So when our minds leave during the grief, during the grief, during the shock, during all of those big feelings, right? We know that there's something and there are people holding us that we're not gonna fall apart and that there's this way of making it through where we know we can come out the other side, right?

Wakil (06:22.965)

Yeah, that's so important and I think it's something that all of us are striving for, at least those of us who are thinking about this are always looking for, know, how do we create those ritual? How do we, we have to recreate it because we've separated ourselves so much from it. So thank you for that reminder. That's so important.

Neshia Alaovae (06:33.904)

Right.

Annalouiza (06:40.886)

Well, I'm going to land in that ritual piece too. You know, I was thinking about it yesterday. I had the beautiful fortune to spend time with a friend of mine whose mom had just passed. And she was relaying this story to me of being in the hospital with her five siblings and the caregiver who had spent the last 10 years taking care of her mother who had Alzheimer's. 

Neshia Alaovae (07:05.487)

Hmm.

Annalouiza (07:10.604)

And she was just, you know, She's a person who I think would look towards somebody else to do the ritual pieces. But in fact, when she was there, the caregiver for her mother said, well, let's wash her now together. And I was like, that is the ritual. 

Neshia Alaovae (07:16.334)

Hmm.

Wakil (07:24.223)

Hmm

Annalouiza (07:40.536)

And that is the ritual that we do when we have babies. We swaddle them, we clean them. That is the ritual when we have been going through  process that has made us, you know, sweaty and tired and dusty, we bathe, we wash, we, you we like almost we re-collect ourselves. And I just sitting and thinking last night about that. and because last night I was also reading a book about washing babies who have died. And, you know, the parents of this particular book was talking about how they're too stunned to wash their like, you know, stillborn babies or children who have not made it to full, gestation and, you know, the horror that they think they will meet. And yet the gift that is given to them. Once somebody says, let's wash the baby. 

Neshia Alaovae (08:19.673)

Hmm.

Wakil (08:26.537)

Mmm.

Neshia Alaovae (08:26.65)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:36.824)

And in this book, she says that is the biggest gift, you know, of, of allowing these people to interact with their little baby you know, with their elders, anybody to just wash them because at some really beautiful part, we assimilate the knowledge that they have passed. And it is also a ritual and we will continue to come back to that moment. And like the washing, like I suddenly like, I, I, yeah, I just keep thinking about washing that I've been thinking for the last 24 hours. So.

Neshia Alaovae (08:46.084)

Hmm, great.

Wakil (08:58.517)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. I wonder how that also applies to other kinds of losses. know, loss of a relationship or loss of a job or something like that. Probably going home and just taking a shower and then getting somebody to swaddle you would be a really beautiful ritual for that. Yeah. Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (09:03.294)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:16.258)

Yeah, yeah. Hold you. Sometimes we ask, you need a hug. That's a swallow, right? Or you or you get yourself in your blanket and you just weep and you mourn, but you're you you swallow yourself. But I was thinking about when, you know, my children were smaller and they fall or whatever, like we never they they weren't big criers, but we'd always be like, let's wash you. Let's wash this. And because of the the work that I have learned through

Neshia Alaovae (09:17.679)

Yes.

Wakil (09:29.949)

Yeah, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (09:30.352)

Right.

Annalouiza (09:45.91)

It was always like, you know, put a little water on their head, give them a little sweet, right? Just to like, so that the soul loss that they're feeling isn't like big and over the top. you you just, you swaddle them with these pieces of, of yourself or nature. But yeah, I, yeah, we need to think about that a little bit more. I think Wakioli and I will go to, as I.

Neshia Alaovae (09:48.654)

Yes.

Wakil (10:05.201)

Yeah, I think so. Sounds like another premium episode to me.

Neshia Alaovae (10:05.424)

Hahaha!

Annalouiza (10:09.362)

Yeah, I love it. And I really believe in the work, Neshia, that, you know, being with those bodies and showing them and I have to just share this to this book was saying how sometimes the she was she a they called her a bereavement midwife. And so when she heard that parents weren't ready to meet their babies, she would talk to them at length about what they would see. Like, this is what your baby looks like.

And then she's like, I would swaddle the baby and sometimes I leave like the toes sticking out or the, you know, just a little like the pate. But what would it turn out to be was like, that was the, the, like the invitation, right? That is okay. Like it's just a small thing. It's not this horror. It's not going to be that way. Sweet baby. And that's how we need to couch death too. You know, it's swaddled in this it's okay. It's like, it's still grandma. It's still our beloved. No, there's her.

Neshia Alaovae (10:58.17)

Yes.

Wakil (11:03.669)

Yeah

Neshia Alaovae (11:04.161)

Right.

Annalouiza (11:06.36)

There's her cheek or something. don't know. just, Neshia, I'm so sorry. I've like taken your story, but you really did kind of like that was, it's such a beautiful winding of, of the warp and weft of life and death. So with that story though, can you tell me about how this has impacted the rest of your life and your story of what you do now?

Neshia Alaovae (11:31.812)

Yeah, totally. I mean, my grandparents have shaped so much of who I am. both my Samoan grandparents and my grandma Dorothy, my Black grandmother, who was also that person in her community who people leaned to in times of grief and celebration. Her kitchen was the place, right, where everyone gathered.

And, you know, I had my own near-death experience when I was five. And so I think all of my grandparents, all of my great aunts and great uncles, right, were always just really open about talking about death with me, about talking about loss with me. And so I think from a really young age, I just always was very aware of that. And you know, I think there are terms that are used nowadays of like hyper-sensitive or, you kknow but I think that there are a lot of us since the beginning of time who, when elders notice that a young person has a certain affinity, right? You just, they just start bringing them up in that way. 

So my first job out of college was at a hospice, a residential hospice in Washington, D.C. And it was my first time really seeing institutionalized death in the U.S. 

Wakil (13:08.422)

Mm. Mm.

Neshia Alaovae (13:22.374)

You know, coming from brown and black communities, I've experienced lots of deaths that happen suddenly, you know, where you don't get that chance to have this long rocess and these goodbyes, but there are these sudden deaths that really shake you and that really stay with you. And of having the opportunity, especially in Samoa, of getting to have those longer deaths and where you get these really healing processes that are really steeped in tradition. But working in the hospice that I was working at as a 22 year old and seeing you know, all of our residents is what we called our patients. All of them, for the most part, were Black men who were born and raised in DC, had never been on a plane, you know, 

Wakil (14:11.125)

Mm-mm. Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (14:19.758)

And were dying of things that I quickly realized should not kill people. Poverty, lack of access to health care, lack of access to quality education  across the spectrum, right? Not just in a school room, you know, lack of education around the fact that everyone is deserving of dignity and of respect and of safety. So, you know, in the time that I was there, I was there for a year before I came back home to the West Coast and

Wakil (14:32.468)

Hmph.

Neshia Alaovae (14:46.008)

While I was there, 17 people and one dog died. 

Wakil (14:50.303)

Mm.

Neshia Alaovae (14:59.97)

So it was this really intense in a short period of time learning around all of the ways that systems can and will kill us if they don't see us as human, and all of the ways in which community in tender, fierce, consistent ways can show up for people and make a huge difference at the end of life. 
 
 

And you know, and for me, being around people who watching people die who looked like my uncles, who looked and sounded like my dad, right, with his Kentucky, you know, draw that only comes out if he's tired, right? Like being around people who looked and felt like family activated and reminded me of all the ways that my grandparents had taught me of how you be with someone when they're living, when they're dying, when they're sick, when you love them, when you love them and it's hard and you show up anyway, right

Annalouiza (16:13.656)

Hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (16:14.0)

? I think all of those lessons came to life and that was when I fell in love with death work. I was like, I don't know what this is. you know, I'm supposed to be here as like a little thing before I go to grad school and, you know, do the plan. 

Wakil (16:23.253)

Hahaha.

Neshia Alaovae (16:44.166)

And I just loved it. I loved every minute of it. I loved being at the bedside. I loved going through advanced directives. I loved washing people's potties after they had died and, you know, getting to do their hair planning memorials and, you know, watching as animals. We had cats and dogs at the hospice and they were always the first to know, right? 

Wakil (16:56.012)

Mm-hmm.

wow, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (17:05.892)

So like, learning to learn from our more than human friends. You know, so I left, my family needed me to come back and support them. So I came back to the West Coast. I went back to life as scheduled. But always in the back of my mind, I was like, if I ever get a chance to, know, when I'm older and wiser, maybe it'll come back to me. Maybe I'll get to do this work again. And then last December, my grandfather died, my Tama died who really was the one who introduced me to death and kept bringing me back to death. 

Wakil (17:53.813)

Beautiful.

Neshia Alaovae (18:03.454)

And he died at 93 in Samoa, in our family home, surrounded by four generations of our family in his bed by his favorite. In Samoa, our traditional homes do not have walls. So he was in his favorite spot right next to where he could see his favorite mango tree and you know, his favorite flowers that my grandmother had died and that my grandmother had planted, excuse me. And when he died, I was not able to go home to Samoa. I had a six month old at the time who didn't have a passport. But the day he died, my grandfather like came and visited me, his spirit came and visited me 

Wakil (18:36.597)

Hmm. Gosh.

Annalouiza (18:51.896)

Hmm.

Wakil (18:52.117)

Mm.

Neshia Alaovae (18:56.344)

And we spent the whole day together just like holding hands and talking and he told me he was tired, you know, and we got to like spend that time and then I went to make dinner and he died. He passed and...

Annalouiza (19:04.536)

Wow, you're champion.

Wakil (19:04.639)

Well...

Wakil (19:08.085)

Mm-hmm.

Wakil (19:19.509)

Mm-hmm. Wow, yeah, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (19:22.374)

And you know, once he passed, realized, like, this is the person who maybe loved me most in the entire world, who, who, like, believed in me, who, you know, was always so proud of me. And the time may never be perfect to just go and do death work, but the time is now anyway. Like I you know, instead of like waiting for someone to give me the opportunity, I need to just go do the work. 

Wakil (19:28.383)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? That's right,

Annalouiza (19:32.184)

We never do, we always assume. All we do.

Wakil (19:42.366)

Ha ha ha ha.

Neshia Alaovae (19:52.196)

Because we don't know how much time we have. And you know, there's this quote from the Buddha that I really like of like, we always think that there's more time, right? The problem is we never know that we don't have as much time. And so I may live to be 93, like him. I hope I don't.

Wakil (19:53.897)

Hahaha!

Neshia Alaovae (19:55.994)

That sounds like a lot of work! That sounds like a lot of time!

Annalouiza (19:57.94)

I agree with that. It's so funny. I'm like, ugh. Doesn't walk for me that long.

Wakil (19:58.133)

Alright.

Neshia Alaovae (20:05.456)

But you know, like, so yeah, so I came back fully into death work in May and my grandfather has just been so delighted. I feel his delight and so I kinda can't remember what you asked me, but I think I answered it. I think.

Wakil (20:18.358)

beautiful. Yeah. Yes, you did. Beautiful. Beautiful. I have to say, I've been at the brink of tears several times during that talk, during what you just told us and just chills. Thank you so much for sharing such poignant thoughts and words and beauty of your life. So yeah, and actually the next kind of from there and it would be a good segue into that is tell us about what you're doing now. What your current return role is. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:52.226)

What is your death work? How are you a death worker?

Neshia Alaovae (20:55.078)

Yeah, yeah, you know, it doesn't quite look like what I thought it does, what I thought it would be. So I often call myself an end of life consultant because I feel like what my death work looks like right now is gathering information that is readily available and is readily accessible but so many people don't even know where to start and kind of get flooded at just the thought of it, right? Like they know they should think ahead. They do want to think about their death, but they've had like no teaching around that. And so they just get anxious and overwhelmed. So a significant part of my work is working with like 20 somethings around end of life planning, there's something about people turning 25 and 30. And all of a sudden, they're like, I need to think about my dying. 

Wakil (22:01.109)

Hmm.

Annalouiza (22:07.252)

It's their quarter midlife crisis.

Wakil (22:07.379)

Yeah, I'm mortal.

Neshia Alaovae (22:22.257)

I'm mortal. Yes. Yeah. So, I ended up doing a lot of like advanced planning at like birthday parties. these like 25 year olds and 30 year olds who I think they, you know, I'm 34. I turned 35 in January, but they're like, she's young enough or like she's not gonna shame us. Like, she's cool.

Annalouiza (22:25.666)

Beautiful, how fun.

Wakil (22:40.895)

Hahaha.

Neshia Alaovae (22:43.462)

And so they get together with, they get their closest friends together, their chosen family together, and have me come in and I bring advance directives and my whole end of life planning binder that I've put together. And we sit for a couple of hours and we just talk about everything.

Wakil (22:58.612)

Haha.

Annalouiza (23:06.05)

So cool.

Neshia Alaovae (23:12.826)

Like, what's a health care agent? What's an advance care directive? What's a polst? What's final disposition? And I really want to be a tree. And I'm like, great. Have you heard of human composting? Like, you know, we go through all these things. Where should you keep all your passwords? Right?

Wakil (23:15.146)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:20.29)

Yeah, yeah. So great.

Wakil (23:29.725)

Yeah, I love this as a birthday party theme. What a cool idea. yeah, I'm definitely going to recommend you to all my friends, all my younger friends.

Neshia Alaovae (23:29.791)

So, yeah.

Annalouiza (23:33.333)

Yeah, me too.

Neshia Alaovae (23:34.47)

Yeah, it's really fun, you know. It's so it's so fun because like they're with people who they've known for a long time and yet they're surprising each other all the way through these conversations right Oh like that's something you really value I didn't know that about you or I didn't know that that's really important to you and I do not want that for myself but I can honor that for you and I can you know, like they're really cool conversations to have with people.

Annalouiza (24:13.824)

It's intimate connection, right? Like this is your chosen family plus, you know, we don't have those conversations often with people we assume are really our tight buddies.

Wakil (24:17.609)

Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (24:18.116)

Yes.

Wakil (24:28.245)

Yeah, especially in that age age group. that's wow. That's like the best ministry I've ever heard of.

Neshia Alaovae (24:28.388)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:31.286)

Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (24:32.965)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:35.798)

Yeah? Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (24:38.596)

I mean, I feel like they're ministering to me a lot through these, you know? 

Wakil (24:42.056)

sure, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (25:08.774)

Like, I feel really inspired and hopeful sitting with this younger generation, with my generation as well. And so that's a big part of my work that I'm really grateful for and wasn't expecting. And then I do what I think is like probably more classical death doula work of...

I often get called into a family by an adult grandchild who's around my age, but who tends to be like the emotional keeper of the family. And so I come in and I think in ideal situations, I get to be with the family for a while, you know, before someone dies and we get to know each other, they get to trust me and I get to just show them what options are and really just be a presence. I think that's a huge part of our work is just, you know.

You all were talking about this in an episode, you know, there's the chaplain, there's the physicians, there's the palliative care nurse, there's the social worker, but there's not someone who's just there always bringing soup and, you know, like playing grandma's favorite songs and sitting with her and reading her favorite poetry and helping the family have these hard conversations and bringing out photo albums and you know, so that's my job. I get to be that person, that other person, right? And I get to remind people that, yeah, you get to keep your person at home or at your aunt's house for a few days after they die and like, let's sit vigil, let's spend some time. 

Wakil (26:21.087)

haha

Annalouiza (26:39.98)

Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (26:49.174)

Like in my family, in Samoan culture and in Black culture, one of the first things that we do when someone dies is sing. Because there are no words, but there are these songs that we carry in our bodies, Negro spirituals and hymns and songs of lament, right? And so that's the first thing that often comes out because we don't have words, but the grief needs to come out of our body. The grief and the celebration and, 

Wakil (27:12.873)

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (27:19.925)

You know, like singing somebody home. And so I get to help families find their rituals. Like what's the first thing we need to do together as a collective to help you come into your body in this moment, right after someone's breath or last breath? Like what do we need to do so that we can shatter safely together?

Wakil (27:44.316)

yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (27:45.656)

And I'll hold for you, right? Like, I can give you ideas. And let's talk about, like, are there cultural traditions we can lean on? Are there cultural traditions we do not want to lean on in this moment? 

Wakil (27:47.946)

haha

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (28:15.986)

Are there, like, new things? And the dying person, right, gets to, like, lead us and teach us in that. So, yeah, so that's one part, you know, the actual death part. And then another big part of my work right now has just been like helping hold grief in community. So a lot of nonprofits will call me if there's been a lot of death with their community organizers or with their team. 

Wakil (28:27.294)

Mm.

Wow.

Annalouiza (28:54.604)

Thank you.

Wakil (28:54.651)

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Neshia Alaovae (28:55.639)

And I come in and I do a grief event, whatever that looks like. So I've kind of become known locally as the flower death doula. Because I often come in with, in my mind, I'm recreating my grandmother's garden, right? It's like a soothing practice for me. But when I show up with like buckets of flowers, and I tell people, I've found that often people needs to do something with their hands to keep from disassociating as they're working through grief and so flowers are gentle on the hands. They smell nice. And so I have people make bouquets and I set out writing prompts and I don't really give any other instruction and I just see what comes up.

Wakil (29:41.407)

Wow.

Neshia Alaovae (29:51.115)

And it's always really powerful you know, so I get to create all these like really beautiful, fun, unique, really personalized grief events.

Wakil (30:00.821)

Beautiful, beautiful. I think we need that worldwide right now. I love that. I think this would probably be the quote that comes out of this is shattering safely together. just love that. That's such a perfect way of saying it. Thank you.

Annalouiza (30:05.623)

Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (30:06.342)

Yes. yes.

Annalouiza (30:15.5)

Yeah, I put a little clip on there. I have that down too. Beautiful.

Yeah. So what are your challenges in the work that you do?

Neshia Alaovae (30:31.322)

Yeah, a big challenge that I've come across is just how afraid people are of admitting we're all gonna die and having the conversations. 

Wakil (30:46.869)

Mm.

Neshia Alaovae (31:11.526)

Oftentimes there's this leaning in and this leaning away. They're like, wow, people hear what I do and they meet me and they're like, I really wish you had been there for my family during this. But then when the time comes when someone is dying, right? Or if I'm like, well, we can still do this or this, right? There's this leaning away because suddenly that makes it too real. 

Wakil (31:21.454)

yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (31:35.12)

So that's been a really interesting challenge in a culture and a society that's really afraid of death. How do we even get close to it then?

Wakil (31:37.818)

Mm, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (31:41.963)

So that's something that I'm finding my way through.

Wakil (31:45.331)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what have you found that helps you, well, that helps you feel supported in your day-to-day work and helps you feel like you've got, what do you fall back to when you are overwhelmed yourself?

Neshia Alaovae (32:00.454)

Hmm. Yeah. The first people I think of are my children. I have an 18-month-old son and a four-year-old this Friday, who my grandfather named after my grandmother.

And, you know, with all the challenges of parenting small humans and, know, there is this joy and this hope that comes of having them. And I, I feel like I'm someone because of the work I do and because of who I am, I'm constantly grieving. And I get to model for my children how to, I think of grief, I think of my grief, like making a cake. 

Wakil (33:11.509)

Hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (33:30.842)

It's not something that is separate from the other parts of my life, from the whole, but it's something that I am like constantly stirring into the batter with really light touches to keep, you know. You want to be as gentle with it as possible, right? Like mixing the egg whites in. You don't want to beat any of the fluffiness out. You don't want to beat any of the lightness out, but it has to get incorporated all the way through 

Wakil (33:44.447)

Hmm, wow, yeah. Hmm. Hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (34:01.752)

in order to create something really tasty and soothing for the soul. So I think of grief like that and my children help me learn how to do that, right?

I come home from a bedside and from a really challenging situation. And even at the bedside, right, I reach into my pocket to pull out lavender for the person who's dying. And instead I pull out rocks and pine cones and snacks and right. And that reminder of life, you know, this is

Annalouiza (34:24.322)

Beautiful.

Wakil (34:27.166)

Ha ha.

Neshia Alaovae (34:31.536)

There's so much life happening even as death is happening, right? There's so much joy even in these little moments. 

Wakil (34:34.095)

Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (35:00.25)

And yeah, and whenever I can, I bring my children with me into my work, right? They'll come to grief events, they'll come to the bedside if that's appropriate and if the family wants that. And I get to see this other generation like how they embody grief, or even the curiosity that they have around death and, you know, the deep knowing that they have around big feelings in little words.

Wakil (35:16.457)

Yeah, yeah. In little words. Yeah, wow, lovely, lovely. Thank you.

Annalouiza (35:27.49)

So what frightens you about the end of life?

Neshia Alaovae (35:31.457)

Mmm. Ooh, yes, what frightens me? You know, I think in this moment, what frightens me, and I was thinking about this question. I don't think it's necessarily fear, but I think I hold onto it so tight because it's precious, but then it feels like fear of missing it. You know, I'm scared of like, not getting to see my kids step into the fullness of who they are, right? 

Wakil (36:06.879)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:24.3)

Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (36:26.79)

Like, I'm scared of, like, is there something I'm missing? Like, is there something I'm supposed to do before it's my time? And am I, am I going to miss it? You know, I'm trying to live authentically, I'm trying to live in a way that does good to the world. And so I have that fear of like, is there a teaching I need to know as an ancestor that I'm gonna miss because I'm so busy, like, trying to do things right, or trying to make things perfect or try, you know, so that's...

Wakil (36:48.479)

Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:52.824)

I'm just trying to do things.

Neshia Alaovae (36:54.471)

Right, just trying to like get out the door in the morning.

Annalouiza (36:58.06)

Yeah, I hear you.

Neshia Alaovae (37:02.072)

Am I gonna miss the really important lessons of my life because I'm so busy trying to, because I'm just so busy.

Annalouiza (37:12.536)

Well, human, you're a human being, you know? It's like, it is a lot of work to be a human.

Neshia Alaovae (37:15.065)

You right.

Wakil (37:15.285)

Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. I love that. This has been so fun so far. So really we've kind of covered everything. think, is there anything you wish we had asked you?

Neshia Alaovae (37:45.658)

I don't know what the question is, but the thing that is rising is just wanting to make sure. You know, oftentimes I get asked like, how could you do this kind of work? 

Wakil (38:00.393)

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (38:02.328)

Aren't you depressed? Right? People say it all the time.

Wakil (38:04.767)

Right.

Neshia Alaovae (38:08.486)

You know, like, like what, it's so hard. You know, it's so heavy. Yes, yes, those questions. And, you know, I, my death work is really first and foremost, like grounded in celebration and in deep love. Like, this is something that I come from a long lineage of people who have done this in different ways. 

Wakil (38:28.853)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's true.

Neshia Alaovae (38:38.542)

And at some point we're all going to do this if we're in, if we're in community, right? Like if we if we're taking care of people and loving people in any capacity, then this is the work we end up doing. 

Wakil (38:43.625)

Yes. So true.

Annalouiza (39:04.92)

Mm-hmm.

Neshia Alaovae (39:06.532)

And if we don't end up doing that work, it's because something really important is missed and lost in my mind. And so, you know, like, I really celebrate getting to be able to do this. 

Annalouiza (39:24.856)

Mm.

Wakil (39:31.347)

Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (39:34.746)

Like, I feel I feel all my ancestors who also did this work, who gave their lives in order to do this work, who really built up communities doing this. And this comes from a deep place of love and lineage and celebration. And of knowing that I'm just one in a long line, right? There is everyone who came before me and there's everyone who's coming after me and we're all doing this work together. So whatever the question was that would have led to that answer.

Wakil (39:42.941)

Yeah, yeah. That's a perfect, I love it. I love it. Yeah. Talking about the caravan. Sufis call it a caravan, right? 

Annalouiza (39:47.51)

Beautiful. That's a great answer. Yeah.

Neshia Alaovae (39:52.661)

Yes, the caravan. Yes. all around us and yes.

Wakil (39:58.31)

The caravan, we're all, they're behind us and in front of us. Yeah. Wow. 

Yeah. All around us. Yes. Thank you. That's such a beautiful answer to whatever question it was. Yeah. To the question of how do you love? Really just again this whole interview, I’ve just .,.

Annalouiza (40:07.01)

Yes! I’ve lots of hearts on my notes.

Neshia Alaovae (40:32.64)

Yay

Wakil (40:58.31)

It’s been such a pleasure, and we will keep in touch.