Death, Dying, and Grief - Hand Woven Coffins and the Importance of Death Literacy with Dr. Tamara McIntyre

In this conversation, Dr. Tamara McIntyre shares her journey and insights into death literacy, the importance of curiosity in facing mortality, and her work with hand-woven willow coffins. She discusses the challenges of engaging people in conversations about death, the cultural shifts surrounding end-of-life practices, and the need for community support in navigating these experiences. Dr. McIntyre emphasizes the significance of understanding our mortality and making informed choices about death and dying. We explore the importance of advanced care planning, compassion in healthcare, and the dynamics of end-of-life conversations. We discuss the emotional impact of medical diagnoses, the necessity of self-care for caregivers, and the significance of creating safe spaces for individuals to express their feelings and desires regarding death. The conversation also touches on the fears surrounding medical interventions, the role of mindfulness in life reflection, and the importance of family dynamics in end-of-life planning. Humor and lightness are emphasized as essential elements in discussing death, ultimately leading to a deeper appreciation for open conversations about aging and dying.

Dr. Tamara MacIntyre is an end-of-life doula, retired chiropractor, and doctor of natural medicine with over 20 years of experience in holistic healthcare. Now, as a death educator and funerary artisan, she weaves together her expertise to increase death literacy and inspire upstream conversations about aging, illness, and end-of-life planning. 

As the creator of handwoven willow coffins, Tamara blends artistry and sustainability to reimagine after-death practices. Her mission is to empower individuals to approach mortality with clarity, confidence, and compassion—transforming how we live by rethinking how we prepare for death.

https://www.consciousdeath.org/

Instagram @EndofLife_Architect or Facebook @drtamaramacintyre

Transcript

Wakil (00:01.499)
On this episode, we are honored to meet Dr. Tamara McIntyre. Dr. McIntyre is an end-of-life doula, retired chiropractor, and doctor of natural medicine with over 20 years of experience in holistic health care. Now, as a death doula and funerary artisan, she weaves together her expertise to increase death literacy and inspire upstream conversations about aging, illness, and end-of-life planning. 

Annalouiza (00:30.958)
I'm going to cut in really quick. She has it here as death educator. Are you an educator, Doula? Do you present as an educator?

Tamara MacIntyre (00:40.262)
I'm a certified end of life doula and I will typically refer to myself as a death educator. I have a lot of years of being an educator and so it's really part of what I do is the teaching.

Annalouiza (00:52.491)
Okay.

Wakil (00:56.682)
Perfect.

Annalouiza (00:56.696)
So, okay. As the creator of hand-woven willow coffins, Tamara blends artistry and sustainability to reimagine after death practices. Her mission is to empower individuals to approach mortality with clarity, confidence, and compassion, transforming how we live by rethinking how we prepare for death. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.

Tamara MacIntyre (01:23.758)
Thank you so much for having me.
Wakil (01:23.641)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is, you're in the right family here. We really appreciate the work that you're doing. So we like to start by asking when you first became aware of death.
Tamara MacIntyre (01:39.024)
that's a great question. I would say to you, I once heard Salman Rushdie refer to, this was pre-knife, and he referred to his relationship with death and our choice as humans to either live with it as a shadow or as a companion. And I relate to it as a companion. I would say to you, I first became aware of cancer when I was really young, I remember watching the nightly news and chronicling Terry Fox's run with my dad and my dad explaining to me what cancer was all about. 
And then around the same time, within a year or so, I was kneeling alongside the coffin of my great-grandmother with my grandfather and we, you know, he brought me through his relationship with his mom and it was the first body I had ever touched that was dead and he guided that process. And so I would jump forward a few more years after that. My best friend was diagnosed with leukemia when I was 16 and a year and a half after that, my dad was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. And so I sort of feel like illness and end of life and dying and death has always been part of my experience as a human. So it's an interesting question and people ask why am I doing this work and at this point I think why wouldn't I be?
Annalouiza (03:18.575)
Well, it's in your formation.
Tamara MacIntyre (03:19.17)
Yeah, very much so. I mean, it's formed the way, the gratitude that I have for life. It's formatted the manner with which I navigate and have navigated my life, my relationships, emphasizing and prioritizing love. All of those things really just have been part of who I became as an adult by nature of my experiences as a child and a young adult.
Wakil (03:51.667)
Totally makes sense.
Annalouiza (03:52.238)
It does. you've answered the second question we usually have, is how death impacts the story. And you just very succinctly said, like, this has been part of my entire life. So how has death brought you to this moment? And how has that moved you?
Tamara MacIntyre (04:11.755)
Yeah, it's interesting. You people will ask about having chosen to become an end of life doula or having chosen to weave coffins or even, you know, somebody last week, I was sitting with a woman in her late seventies and she corrected herself. But what she said, what came off of her tongue first was, I think you're too young to be obsessing about death.
And then she corrected the word obsessing. And I think that that's actually it. We are so incredibly death illiterate. We don't actually know how the human body shuts itself down unless we actually have that intimate experience. I know very personally for myself, my family, and certainly for my dad. He was 48 years old when he died. He was diagnosed at 46.
And I remember his genuine curiosity that he shared. And there was a story that just, you know, what happens with our memories and stories just sort of pop into our heads. And in my conversation with this woman last week, I shared the following story. So I'm going to share it with you. 
My dad was in palliative care. That's ultimately where he died. And what the practices were at the time was that when somebody on the ward the palliative care ward died the nurses would come into the room and they would close the blinds and close the door and so we all knew that Somebody had died and everybody would like nobody would really say anything and I'd been in the room before when that had happened But in this particular evening It was just my dad and I which I at that time Really kind of spent as much time by myself with him as I could and then this particular evening when they came in and the blinds were closed and the door closed he looked at me and he said “Can you get me out of the bed? I Want to know what's going to happen to me.” And so we like two little kids. I got him into the wheelchair. went to the door. We opened the door we peeked out And so I got to see his bravery at just really genuine curiosity of What it was going to look like when he was no longer in his body?
And we sat and we talked about it. And he wanted to know, like, what do they do? And so those have been my experiences. And even though my dad was really incredibly well supported and incredibly loved and had a lot of friends, my mom was a nurse and so he was at home as long as he possibly could be until she could no longer care for him by herself. There's no doubt in my mind that his experience was incredibly lonely.
Wakil (07:03.669)
Mmm.
Tamara MacIntyre (07:04.364)
that there wasn't somebody, his peers that could engage at the depth that I think he wanted to. And we certainly talked about it because it was part of my process. So for me, I feel really motivated to be present for people, to allow them the ability to explore, to be curious. I would sort of say to be more curious than afraid if we can get people into that space.
Wakil (07:29.629)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful.
Tamara MacIntyre (07:32.03)
Then we have an open window and an open door and a welcome for those that are either needing to reconcile or have grieved because the experience that they saw in somebody they loved was an experience they don't want to have. It's so common that people will say, know what I don't want, but don't really invest in having a good sense of what they do want. Yeah. 


Wakil (07:46.751)
Right, yeah.

Annalouiza (07:54.574)
Right.

Wakil (07:54.591)
Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. So tell us a little bit more about your current work, your current role.

Tamara MacIntyre (08:02.764)
Yeah, I would say the conversation opener very often times for me now is the coffins. Whether it's somebody that comes into my home, whether it's, you a few weeks ago there was an expo here in town in my community, my new community, that was called Death Done Different. So it automatically filtered people that were open to having the conversation. And what was so interesting to me was that I was the only person there not selling primarily a service.
And the coffins, it was really interesting. You see people walk by where they sort of side eye it and they're not totally ready to engage in it. But what's so beautiful about the coffin is that, people in this part of the world have oftentimes not seen them before. Not woven coffins, it's just not as common here in North America. Two, they get to interact with it. So the ability to smell it, to touch it, to feel it to engage in a conversation about it, even, you it really is a values choice. And so it allows me immediately for those that are curious to engage in a conversation about values because it's so obviously a sustainable choice. And it's very oftentimes surprising that they didn't actually know. 
And as we enter that direct consumer market, when it comes to funerary after death choices, the coffins really allow me the opportunity to engage with people and engage with people that maybe don't share conventional values. And if they don't share conventional values as it relates to Mother Earth and the environment, very often times they tend to be non-interventionists when it comes to conventional medicalized care and treatment at end of death. And so they don't know the other options. 

Wakil (09:59.604)
Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (10:03.626)
And these tend to be individuals who really do understand that they want quality of life over quantity of life, but sometimes need to be reminded that the only way that happens is if somebody says no. 

Annalouiza (10:15.35)
Right. Right.

Wakil (10:15.453)
Right? Yeah. Wow.

Tamara MacIntyre (10:31.506)
So the coffins just allow me this opportunity to be engaged with people in a way that is incredibly obvious, that does to a certain extent a little bit of filtering when it comes to values and value systems and by nature of the fact that I weave, I already am open.

Wakil (10:36.031)
Yeah, right.

Tamara MacIntyre (10:59.528)
So I already become a safer place to engage in conversation, to disclose a diagnosis, to share a story of a loved one that's passed, to bear witness to their pain and their fear. And that allows me the opportunity. And so really the coffins are twofold for me. One, They provide an incredible opportunity to connect with other humans. And two, they allow me to use my hands in producing something that I find incredibly meaningful. And so I feel like it's also my homage to Mother Earth and my ability to be able to provide somebody with something that just feels so incredibly congruent with the values that I live my life by.

Wakil (11:24.917)
Thank you. It's so beautiful. Can I just ask real quickly, because you're coming from Canada, is the whole country of Canada allow for green burial?

Annalouiza (11:25.639)
Wow.

Tamara MacIntyre (11:36.686)
Yeah, so it really depends on where exactly you live. There is a hybrid cemetery that's very close on the island. When you look at island land, you look at expense. so a plot of land on a hybrid cemetery on an island costs the same. But what people don't understand is that what it does for the earth is very different. 

Wakil (12:00.701)
Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (12:06.338)
Most of the small islands around all have a green burial ground by nature of wanting to preserve the land and a limited space. 

Wakil (12:07.829)
Nice. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (12:34.857)
And in the mainland, many of the provinces are either have a green burial, definitely have a hybrid in some way, and bodies also can be transported if that's your value system. And again, as with the United States, the ability to be buried on your own land is always possible with the right help and support individuals that can sign the paper and facilitate that for you.

Wakil (12:38.581)
All right, nice, beautiful. Thank you. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (12:40.835)
You're welcome.

Annalouiza (12:42.456)
So just a weaver question, how long do you spend weaving a coffin?

Tamara MacIntyre (12:49.39)
Great question. So I would say you're anywhere between 30 and 40 hours of pure weaving time. And that doesn't include the preparation. yeah, 

Annalouiza (13:00.376)
collecting is it Willow, right?

Tamara MacIntyre (13:17.022)
So getting the willow, sourcing the willow, which is actually a significant issue because so much of the willow is grown for basketry, not for the large baskets that I weave.
So it really is connecting with the growers, having them harvest it long. And so there's definitely those kind of connections that you make. And then there's the, of course, the willow has to be soaked and then it has to be cured before you can actually use it. And so I don't count that sort of nurturing the willow and getting it into that kind of timing in my hours. So my question is there's, there is the preparation, the framing, and then there is the actual weaving time. And you're in around 30 to 40. Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:51.661)
Wow.

Wakil (13:51.743)
Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot and beautiful work. Yeah. Do you know, could you say how many you have done at this point?

Tamara MacIntyre (14:00.14)
Yeah, so I have made four, I've made four full coffins working on my fifth right now. And then I also weave shroud carriers and shroud trays. And so that's also a different conversation opener. 

Wakil (14:18.963)
Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (14:30.03)
Many people are not familiar with them. The practices of being buried with a shroud have, you know, certain religions that is the choice but more and more people are choosing it. And so the carriers that I, one of the models that I have made is a Polish version and families used to keep the shroud carrier, the shroud stretcher and every member of the family would be carried to their grave using the exact same. So mosques, synagogues will very often times have a shared communal carrier.

Wakil (14:57.301)
Hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (14:58.016)
So it's still 100 % decomposable, but it is my challenge for there to be some level of connectedness within families of establishing traditions and understanding that there are other, I mean, that's another choice is the ability to shroud and to allow still the same experience of, know, pallbearers and actually being able to carry the body to the final resting place. And so I also weave those and I've woven a number of those.

Wakil (15:33.525)
That's great. Yeah, that's I definitely have to add that to my class about end of life planning because, you know, we talk about the choices of disposition of the body, but the idea of creating a ritual, a family ritual of having the carriers move from just stay in the family. That's such a beautiful idea. Our last guest was talking a lot about, you know, ancestor ritual and how important that was. So so so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That was really lovely.

Annalouiza (15:34.968)
Fantastic.

Annalouiza (16:01.678)
It is, and you again answered your question because my question was, what are the biggest challenges to your work? And there's some of these very pragmatic challenges, but what other challenges do you find in end of life educating?

Wakil (16:13.428)
Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (16:19.97)
I think people don't really know what they don't know unless they've had a personal experience. And then when they've been very close to end of life or illness or death or dying, it tends to be a singular experience, like one very personalized story. But a lot of people don't understand the larger picture that the majority of individuals experience. so, you know, the challenge to engage people in conversations about their own mortality, the challenge of people understanding that this is not just older people that need to do this work. 

Annalouiza (16:58.446)
Great.

Wakil (16:58.665)
Right, yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (17:13.856)
People understanding that the idea that the older you get, the more prepared you are when you find yourself at end of life is really not true. And if you have not, you know really in any way related to your own mortality, there is certain work to do at the end. And so, you know, we willingly accept the labor of birth, but we don't talk about the labor to get out of this vessel. 

Wakil (17:26.527)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:26.762)
Yes, yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (17:42.814)
We willingly acknowledge that there is pain associated with the entry, there will be pain associated with the end. And so the challenge to engage people in conversations about their relationship with pain their family's relationship with pain really does play a big role in the decisions that you might want to put in place later on. There's a big difference between whether or not you, you know, your fear of dying is associated with the dying process itself versus being dead. And those are fundamentally two very different scenarios. 

Annalouiza (18:01.678)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil (18:06.751)
Sure.

Tamara MacIntyre (18:14.099)
And so getting people to even just contemplate those kinds of things and for them to realize like there is a very common human experience, just like there are, know, trimesters of a pregnancy, there are psychological constructs, not just physiological constructs associated with how the body shuts itself down and the emotions that are very normally experienced as we are sitting in end of life. And so those are challenges because we have as I'm sure most of your guests will say, when you have a death illiterate culture, then where's the entry point to open the door to have that conversation? So that's the biggest challenge is finding people willing to engage in the conversation.

Annalouiza (18:59.245)
Yeah.

Wakil (19:03.054)
Yeah. I love the idea of carrying around a willow coffin as a way to start those conversations.

Annalouiza (19:03.531)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (19:09.374)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:09.44)
Yeah, right.
It's just so interesting that you called it death illiterate. it's such a great term because people are very uncomfortable, which is why we're doing the podcast, to normalize this amongst all of us to talk about it. But it's a shame that we're so illiterate.

Tamara MacIntyre (19:31.593)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, the conversation is that death, for the most part, for most people, is a very medicalized process. So we've moved so far. I say sort of we've moved so far away from what it used to look like that it looks, it's starting to look new again. Like my coffin looks new. 

Annalouiza (19:39.368)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil (19:51.477)
Right.

Annalouiza (19:57.738)
Yes. Yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (20:01.376)
What in actual fact. Its history is far longer than our current practices. Right? And so, so it's exactly that. It's that when you have a culture that doesn't understand that convention, like a medical doctor's decision matrix will always be to extend quantity of life because they can't, like it would be illegal for them to choose quality if they have the ability to extend quantity. 

Annalouiza (20:20.821)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (20:27.598)
And when you look at burnout in our medical community, you know, there's many articles now that says the type of burnout that most physicians are feeling is moral burnout because they're a burden to make these decisions is on their plate when people defer the decision making for such significant moments in their health decision and default it to a physician. 

Wakil (20:37.311)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:45.154)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (20:45.396)
Wow.

Annalouiza (20:53.057)
Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (20:57.326)
And so, you know, it's, I truly believe physicians don't want it this way either, which is why we see so many palliative medical doctors having this conversation podcasts and books and trying to engage people and even just the practical matters of if you could just put these things in place and I wouldn't I won't have to make the decision for you.

Annalouiza (21:07.054)
Yeah. It's almost like caring for our providers, for our caregivers, right? The medical caregivers need us to be supporting them as well by having these conversations and making choices so that they're not burdened, like you just mentioned. Yeah.

Wakil (21:07.475)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (21:22.06)
Very much so, very, very much so. And I think that, you know, that's also obviously not often talked about. 

Wakil (21:29.685)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:29.838)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (21:43.273)
Yeah, wow.

Tamara MacIntyre (21:52.36)
You know, that, you know, it's not just about the cost of a medicalized death. It's about the experience of a medicalized death. It's about the other humans that we burden when we don't put our plans in place. You know, when we don't understand that, you know, really there's two types of decisions we need to make. Decisions when we can and when we can't make our own decisions. 

Wakil (21:53.685)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (22:21.494)
And also just the choice of like, even if we end up with knowing or understanding and people will do this is knowing, okay, this is the person I want to make my health decisions. You I know I want my wife to make my health decisions, but I also know that I want her to be incredibly well supported and I don't want her to carry that solo burden. So, you know, it's the team of our friends that know my values, my need to communicate with them what I want because they will be alongside my wife if someday if that's what comes to be. 

Annalouiza (22:25.016)
That's right.

Wakil (22:42.983)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:43.0)
Yeah. It's right. It's like you're the moving target for people who are upset about the death. Right. So it really behooves there to be a community and going back to what you mentioned, how your funeral is now looking like funeral from way long ago. Like we're coming. We're like our ship is moving back to face with the ancestors, how they processed our dying. 

Wakil (22:46.633)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (22:52.13)
Mm-hmm.
That's my hope.

Annalouiza (23:13.77)
And I was thinking about that because we had a guest who talked about this idea of washing bodies after the death, right? As though it were such a new, like, wow, look at this, right? 

Tamara MacIntyre (23:21.684)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:43.69)
And you saying that, it's like, no, we're collectively, we're being asked to like turn back, do it the old ways for so many reasons. And again, the collective peace, our communities used to join together to be there for deaths, right? Like neighbors, family extra people, everybody showed up to support. And you now, I pray that that's actually what's coming down the pike for us because it is such a lonely task to take care of a loved one.

Tamara MacIntyre (23:48.013)
Yeah.

Wakil (23:51.711)
So, yeah, yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (23:52.62)
Yeah. Well, we don't think about the history of, what a parlor and that room in the house was conventionally used for. We don't think about the fact that the Victorians, the first picture or only picture that they ever had was of their loved one at death. Right. 

Annalouiza (23:57.698)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil (23:59.039)
Right?

Annalouiza (24:08.608)
At death, yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (24:20.547)
We don't think about the fact that, you know, that that bodies were placed in the front window and that the entire community would know that a family was grieving or that somebody had died we’re really, really far removed from some of those practices that allowed even young children to be connected with the circle of life. Right?

Annalouiza (24:25.23)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (24:31.433)
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think it's really one of the really important things you were talking about that is kind of something that kind of rang a bell and it was the idea that we're supporting … when we talk about when we're helping people with advanced care directors and things we talk about, this is a gift you can give to your family, but it's also a gift you can give to the medical providers. And I'd never really thought of it that way because again, you you're, you're enabling not only your family, but your community.

Annalouiza (24:31.48)
Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (24:53.774)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (24:58.715)
and the medical providers to know this is what I really want and they don't have to guess or they don't have to make decisions based on not knowing, which is… 

Annalouiza (25:07.426)
Guesswork.

Wakil (25:14.456)
I could certainly understand that must be really difficult, a really difficult place and they must be, but they must many times be just doing that out of default because nobody, because people don't tend to think about that. So thank you for that. That's a really beautiful point.

Tamara MacIntyre (25:20.834)
Right. You're welcome. Yeah, I was speaking with a medical doctor who was a poet and I was interviewing her and I made the comment that the moment a diagnosis is given, the individual starts to grieve. 

Annalouiza (25:21.004)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil (25:34.697)
Yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (25:48.032)
And she said to me, I never thought about it that way. And I thought, how many diagnosis have you given without being really acutely aware? That everything that changes as soon as a life-limiting diagnosis is given, the moment that that happens. 

Annalouiza (25:51.79)
like that. That's right.

Wakil (25:52.551)
Exactly.

Tamara MacIntyre (26:10.668)
And so yeah, think it's not just in the UK, their newest coursework is to train physicians in what is now referred to as compassionomics.

Wakil (26:08.393)
Wow.

Annalouiza (26:09.395)
Compassionomics?

Tamara MacIntyre (26:10.668)
yeah, passionomics, it's actually, yeah, it's a book, it's the person that coined it, as if it was surprising that people have better outcomes when you have a compassionate physician. 

Wakil (26:23.248)
yeah.

Wakil (26:30.175)
Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (26:39.648)
And so it's, you know, it is about the full circle for them too, as a profession, is one, to acknowledge how they're feeling in, you know, in that space, but also for us as the public and as their patients to understand them as human beings. Right. And so it has to go both ways is, you know, because they are human beings. 

Wakil (26:41.407)
Sure, yeah, yeah, yes.

Annalouiza (26:59.181)
Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (27:09.346)
And so when you look at research and, you know, prognosis is not oftentimes shared in the manner with which some people would like it, not all people, but some people would. It is because there are humans that don't, know, physicians don't know, is this somebody who wants to know? Is this somebody who doesn't want to know? Maybe I'll wait till they ask, okay, maybe I won't. Are they still asking for more time? Do they need more time? Do they understand if they accept this intervention, what this is gonna look like? Do I need to explain this to them? 

Wakil (27:09.428)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:25.41)
Yep.

Wakil (27:32.971)
yeah, yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (27:36.302)
So it's all of those pieces. And so I think, my experience being that facilitator for people in their health allows me to sit in both seats. Know that I'm not interested in you know, as a non-interventionist, really don't want much of that. I am very clear about what I am willing to accept. But I'm also very clear that we also not just unburden the families, but we have the capacity to unburden the medical community in those moments.

Wakil (27:43.242)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:54.122)
Yeah, I was just thinking about that, like how much disassociation occurs in those moments for both the purveyor of health and the receiver of hopeful health, right? Like there's like so much slicing off because it's a very tenuous conversation. It's hard.

Wakil (27:54.145)
Yeah. Well.

Tamara MacIntyre (28:12.088)
Very much so, very much so. And then you have the dynamic within loved ones. partners won't necessarily agree, which is why it's so important to ask for what you want and not make the presumption that what you want is what they would want 

Annalouiza (28:25.496)
Yeah.

Wakil (28:35.667)
Right? Yeah. Or that they will know just because they should know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (28:43.244)
Or that they will know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, or that they would. So it's all of those things. mean, it's, know, while we sit here and we talk about advanced care plan and not advanced and, know, I sort of flip the words when I'm talking to the public and I say it's to plan your care in advance.

Wakil (28:57.115)
Mm-hmm, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (29:01.344)
And that changes the relationship with what exactly we're doing.

Wakil (29:05.993)
Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's really good. Yeah. Well, so good. Thank you.

Annalouiza (29:07.084)
Yeah. wow. So good. I learned we learned something every single episode. I learned something.

Tamara MacIntyre (29:17.078)
I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Wakil (29:17.205)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been, yeah, so great. So what kind of things do you fall back on to support you, to help you when you start to feel overwhelmed by all of this? Do you have practices or connections or, just what do you support yourself with?

Tamara MacIntyre (29:37.12)
Yeah, so I know how to resource and when my resources are low. think number one, it's about understanding how do you resource yourself? And that really, I would say, comes from my chiropractic background. We talk about energy resourcing. We talk about what that looks like. And so I'm an internal resourcer. 

Wakil (30:16.489)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (30:33.174)
So when I start to feel like my cup is overflowing, then it's my job to go and do the things that I need to do to fill my cup. My goal is always to have my self resource so that people can come and take what they need and not take from me. It's always my goal. And so that means time outside, time on my bike, co-regulating with my cat, co-regulating with my wife. It means really sort of checking in with myself. I'm a long-time journaler. I start my day with ritual. I have a meditation practice. And so I know what I need to do to be able to keep myself resource so that people can come and take what they need and for me to function in facilitation. So, I a beautiful quote from somebody I spoke with last week and it was interesting because when I re-read what she said, whether it was my role as a health provider or whether it was my role as an educator working with students who were in healthcare or whether it's the work that I'm doing now in engaging people and talking about aging and end of life, I take a lot of pride in creating this space for people to feel safe, to explore. 

Wakil (31:26.069)
Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (31:29.743)
And so, to get what they need, to get what they want, to say what they think, to acknowledge how they're feeling and know that it doesn't take from me and that I can play with what they say and encourage more of it. This particular woman immediately sort of said, I want one of your coffins and I'm gonna have rose bushes. And I said, how many and what color? And she immediately paused.

Wakil (31:53.415)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (31:58.21)
And then she tilted her head and said, no one has responded with those questions when I've said it.

Annalouiza (32:05.678)
Beautiful. Ah, what a gift.

Tamara MacIntyre (32:07.086)
Right. And it was just, so it's that, it's to be able to be engaged and, you know, allow people that level of exploration, knowing that whatever emotion they have, knowing whatever curiosities or fears that they are safe to explore it with me. So I think that that's kind of my evolution in working with humans is just to take a lot of pride in being able to do that for another human.

Annalouiza (32:25.838)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (32:37.293)
yeah, yeah, totally present. It's so great. Yeah, really paying attention. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (32:40.194)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:40.622)
Mm-hmm. I feel like a lot of folks who work in this field, we are curious and we hope for curiosity, right? Like we like to open that space to say like, what are you curious about? Because let's like play together around end of life and coffins and shrouds and you know, what songs are being played? It's party planning. It's, you know.

Tamara MacIntyre (32:48.438)
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also all that we are as humans. It's all of our senses. It's the ability for us to change the really sort of the what is like what is a good death and what is it going to take to create that? Because it's not going to happen on its own. 

Wakil (33:11.293)
Yes, yes.

Annalouiza (33:11.525)
Yes.

Wakil (33:24.533)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yes, Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:24.654)
Hmm. Right.

Tamara MacIntyre (33:33.41)
Right. And you may not get 100 percent of what you want but you won't get what you want if you don't put anything in place. Right? 

Wakil (33:35.445)
Yeah, yeah, write it down. Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:36.408)
That's right. You got to say something. You got to tell somebody. Yeah.

Wakil (33:58.271)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tamara MacIntyre (34:00.824)
So it's that. It's, yeah, it's exactly that. It's exactly that is if you can just sort of play and see, I mean, we know people are happier and have a greater gratitude for their life if they're willing to engage in these conversations. That's just the truth present moment, present moment consciousness, present moment gratitude, willingness to celebrate anything worth celebrating. I think that's what this work brings.

Wakil (34:16.275)
Yes, Yeah, lovely. Thank you. Very good.

Annalouiza (34:20.632)
Yes. So, what frightens you about the end of life?

Tamara MacIntyre (34:35.319)
Unwanted medicalized intervention.

Wakil (34:38.293)
Yeah. In a nutshell.

Annalouiza (34:40.147)
Yeah, that's it. I'm right there with you. Yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (34:42.255)
That's it. That's it. That's the, I'm in a bike accident and I get put in an ambulance and they make a decision. I'm like, can't, you know, I'm on my bike out, you know, I can't have the little scroll that says just in case, you know? I mean, I have my bracelet with the phone number and I'm hoping that's Yeah.

Wakil (34:57.205)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (35:01.686)
Yeah, yeah, I think about that all the time. And that's

Wakil (35:05.843)
Yeah, yeah, somebody said they wanted to put a tattoo. Do not resuscitate. It's the only way to be sure that they aren't going to bring you back no matter what you want. Yeah. So that's yeah, that's a really legitimate, legitimate fear that I think we've heard before. And we both feel yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (35:11.854)
Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (35:16.226)
Yeah, yeah, so that.

Annalouiza (35:17.206)
Yeah, it's
So.
Yeah, so go ahead and ask the question.

Tamara MacIntyre (35:25.868)
Yeah. I was just gonna say, like, I am so non-interventionist that even my closest friends will sometimes question. You know? So I'm aware that there's the level of, what people are willing to accept, you know? 

Annalouiza (35:36.142)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (35:36.223)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:40.59)
Hmm.

Wakil (35:49.353)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (35:52.622)
And I think that that, I mean, going back to where this conversation started, you know, when I was 36 years old, I remember thinking very clearly, if I only had 10 more years to live before I was diagnosed with cancer like my dad, would I change anything? 

Wakil (36:06.537)
Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (36:20.62)
And the answer was no. And I've done that check in many, many times. And now my brother is exactly the same age that my dad was when he died. And we've engaged in that conversation. It just feels different.You know, now I go, I'm five years older than my dad ever got to be. So yeah, you know, there's just that mindfulness as I'm navigating life. Yeah.

Wakil (36:25.587)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (36:32.813)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (36:33.085)
Yeah, yeah. And being well, being willing and open to hearing from people or engaging with people to find out what they need, what they want, and what works for them. Yeah, that's so important. Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:43.522)
Mm-hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (36:44.494)
Very much so, yeah. And I mean, some people do want others to make the decision, but is as important that your plans include what you care about the most and what you don't? Like that's also something people don't realize is plans isn't everything you want. That's not what planning your care and advances about. 

Wakil (36:55.528)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Tamara MacIntyre (37:13.134)
It's also releasing the idea that to your family that you care, like to just say, it doesn't matter to me. If you want a funeral, have one, but it doesn't matter to me. And a story that I share very often, my dearest closest friend died in 2019 and she had three children, all adults, and she did death differently. Her family, her son rented a house down the road from her daughter, She did hospice in this home. We all came and went as, you know, friends. There was a bedroom when we would stay there. And she was very much a non-interventionist her entire life. And she gave this gift to her children, which was, you know how I feel about pain medication. I don't want it. However, if it's really uncomfortable for you to watch me in pain, then do what you need to do if it means a little bit more time. Like I'm going anyway.

Wakil (38:12.809)
Wow.
Yeah, yeah, wow, that's, yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (38:22.082)
And so I use an example because people don't think about the fact that they're not just making decisions for what they want, but sometimes the gift, which ended up being an enormous gift for these three children, was just a little bit more time, 

Wakil (38:29.076)
Yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (38:47.564)
which meant a little bit more intervention. And definitely to have them less distressed by watching her pain. And so it's why I say, like, it's not just your relationship with pain, it's your loved one's relationship with pain that will, you know, that will basically play out in that moment. And so it was an enormous gift that she gave and a number of the individuals that I've worked with when I use that example have said, So I could also say, I I just finished work with somebody and she, in her plans, wrote to her family that they don't need to sit at her bedside.

Annalouiza (38:52.6)
Yeah.

Wakil (39:16.821)
Hmm.

Tamara MacIntyre (39:18.798)
… which meant a little bit more intervention. And definitely to have them less distressed by watching her pain. Don't think you need to be there. If it's too much, it's too much. Like you don't need to be there.

Annalouiza (39:21.39)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (39:21.397)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's such a beautiful, like forgiveness ahead of time. And permission. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (39:27.862)
Right.

Annalouiza (39:28.133)
And permission, it's okay.
Such gifts, yes.

Tamara MacIntyre (39:32.27)
100 % and permission and permission to just not, I mean, that's the grief and the trauma that people carry around is not knowing if they made the right decision or being in that moment where it's just so incredibly hard to sit in that room, to be given permission to do whatever you need to do and that you don't have to sit there.

Wakil (39:56.693)
Wow, yeah. Right, yeah, for sure.

Annalouiza (39:56.808)
I gotta write that in mine. 100%.

Tamara MacIntyre (39:58.37)
Right? Right? I mean, it's, and so it's like, it's that, like that's what planning is. Is you have, you have as much possibility of even just reconciling relationships and dynamics that may have been incredibly difficult and acknowledging personalities and dynamics within families and giving the gift of what they actually need. When it really doesn't…

Wakil (40:04.925)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Tamara MacIntyre (40:28.96)
… matter to you at that point, you know? And for this particular woman, she had said, it just allowed me to heal some of my relationships with my kids. Because I thought, well, they're not gonna wanna be there. I'm just gonna tell them they don't have to be.

Wakil (40:44.885)
Wow. Yeah, wow. That's so perceptive too.

Tamara MacIntyre (40:46.86)
Right? Yeah. And so, yeah, I think about those kind of things as just giving people permission to release their family members of the things that they already knowingly know will challenge them.

Annalouiza (41:04.664)
Yeah.

Wakil (41:04.723)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've had people talk about, like you're saying, the things you want, things you don't want. Also the people you want to be there and the people you don't want to be there.


Annalouiza (41:14.838)
I got that list already.

Tamara MacIntyre (41:14.712)
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I saw the funniest reel this week, which was a woman who was talking about her husband who had obviously just passed. And then she said, presumably to her child that was there, she said, you know, I want to be nude, right? And I have worked so hard on this body. I've worked so hard on this body that I want an open casket too.

Wakil (41:42.995)
Wow. So great. Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara MacIntyre (41:43.31)
for whoever who's brave enough, right? And it's that, right? I mean, it's that. It's like she was just joyous and joking about it, right? But the willingness to actually just have fun. Have fun, mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:46.02)
That's gonna be a ffff... Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:59.916)
Yeah.

Wakil (42:01.181)
Yeah, whatever it is, just do it. Bring it. Yeah, bring it. So good.

Annalouiza (42:05.262)
Yeah, you know, it's so good. I love that for for so many reasons. But I was just with my father last week and he showed up. He had a really good looking shirt on. was like, Dad, you look really good. He's like, yeah, I like the shirt a lot. Hey, put this down in your notes. Bury me in this shirt. I just keep it. was like, he's like, unless you really want it, but you should just bury it. This is the one shirt is a Pendleton. It was a beautiful blue one. I'm like, you got it, Dad. I know what to bury you in.

Tamara MacIntyre (42:31.18)
Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Well, and you see, I mean, you see the other joking, like, like bury me with a bra. Don't, don't bury me with a bra. You know, I mean, the number one item that's typically forgotten when clothes are packed, you know, I mean, it's, it's, there are definitely those kind of moments where, yeah, yeah, we can, we can smile and have a bit of fun with it.

Wakil (42:51.985)
Yeah, yeah, that's a very important part of this. Well, this has been great. We're kind of toward the end. Is there anything that you wish we would have asked you that you'd like to continue to share as we end?

Tamara MacIntyre (43:12.35)
No, I think this is just such a lovely, gentle way to engage people in the conversation. I really am in deep appreciation for the opportunity to have these conversations. So thank you both for doing what you're doing and getting the word out that we can still smile and talk about aging. We can still smile and talk about end of life. And yeah, so thank you for that.

Annalouiza (43:35.342)
Yes.
Thank you.

Wakil (43:38.513)
yeah, we get so much out of it literally every single time and we just like, wow, that was so cool. We like to end with a poem, and Tamara would you like us to read it or would you…

Tamara MacIntyre (44:12.35)
I’m happy to read it. So this is called ‘She Let Go’ by Safire Rose
by Safire Rose

She let go.
She let go. Without a thought or a word, she let go.
She let go of the fear.
She let go of the judgments.
She let go of the confluence of opinions swarming around her head.
She let go of the committee of indecision within her.
She let go of all the ‘right’ reasons.
Wholly and completely, without hesitation or worry, she just let go.
She didn’t ask anyone for advice.
She didn’t read a book on how to let go.
She didn’t search the scriptures.
She just let go.

She let go of all of the memories that held her back.
She let go of all of the anxiety that kept her from moving forward.
She let go of the planning and all of the calculations about how to do it just right.
She didn’t promise to let go.
She didn’t journal about it.
She didn’t write the projected date in her Day-Timer.
She made no public announcement and put no ad in the paper.
She didn’t check the weather report or read her daily horoscope.
She just let go.

She didn’t analyze whether she should let go.
She didn’t call her friends to discuss the matter.
She didn’t do a five-step Spiritual Mind Treatment.
She didn’t call the prayer line.
She didn’t utter one word.
She just let go.

No one was around when it happened.
There was no applause or congratulations.
No one thanked her or praised her.
No one noticed a thing.
Like a leaf falling from a tree, she just let go.

There was no effort.
There was no struggle.
It wasn’t good and it wasn’t bad.
It was what it was, and it is just that.
In the space of letting go, she let it all be.
A small smile came over her face.
A light breeze blew through her.

And the sun and the moon shone forevermore…

Wakil
Goosebumps

Annalouiza
I’m feeling weepy

Wakil
Thanks so much That was very very  beautiful

Annalouiza
Do you know this poet?

Tamara
No

Annalouiza:
No? It feels like a friend.

Tamara
It feels like my friend, actually

Wakil
Yeah yeah

Tamara
That poem feels like my friend, and I, my friend that I was sharing this story and with her three children and her relationship with pain. I read that to her in an audio recording and she said she listened to it many times.

Wakil
Yeah. Well thank you again. It’s been a great pleasure

Annalouiza
Thank you

Wakil
We bless you and thank you for your work. Appreciate you very much.