What is a Death Doula

In this episode, we introduce the concept of death doulas, professionals trained to support individuals and families during the end-of-life process. Four experienced death doulas are featured in the conversation, sharing their backgrounds, specialties, and personal stories that inspired them to enter this field. They discuss the importance of providing emotional and practical support to families, their unique challenges, and their profound impact on the dying and their loved ones. 

The doulas emphasize the need for better organization and support during the dying process, highlighting the value of their role in facilitating a peaceful and dignified transition. We discuss the multifaceted role of death doulas, emphasizing the importance of listening, emotional support, and the unique stories that arise in end-of-life care. The doulas share personal experiences, highlighting the challenges and rewards of being present for families during such a profound time. 

They also discuss the complexities of compensation in this field, advocating for transparency and understanding in financial matters while maintaining a compassionate approach to care. We also discuss the importance of training, tools, and community support. We explore the challenges of insurance coverage and accessibility for doula services, the complexities of certification, and the significance of finding the right match between clients and doulas. The discussion also highlights the emotional aspects of grief.

INELDA - International End-of-Life Doula Association
Going With Grace website
humaneprisonhospiceproject.org
Insight Garden Project
Have A Good Death YouTube with Myra
Myra's Website
Threshold Choir
LiElla - Leaving Well Podcast - Home Funerals
Leaving Well Podcast - Finding Peace in the Darkness
Death Becomes Her podcast
Streamlining Funeral Planning
End-of-Life Essentials
LiElla's Website
LiElla's Instagram
Karen - Enduring Love: Child Loss Virtual Support Group
Doula

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:01.942)
Welcome to our doula podcast. You may have heard of birth doulas and if you've been listening to our podcast, you will have heard about death doulas or end of life or grief counselors. Today we want to introduce you to some of these death doulas, all of who have been on the podcast before. So be sure to check that at the episodes where we have them. And we hope that you'll learn more about what they do and how they do it.

Wakil David Matthews (00:37.899)
Death Doulas are becoming more prevalent in end of life support. They are trained to support those at the end of life, really through the whole spectrum from beginning from before to well after and support their families and their communities as well. We really hope this conversation will help you find a Death Doula who can support you during an end of life event. We will include links to their work, their websites and podcast episodes in the show notes. So please check those out. So let's get started.

Thanks everybody for being here. We really appreciate you. So let's let you each tell us about yourself. Where are you located, first of all? And then if you have any specialty concentrations in your work, please go ahead and tell us about that. On my far left is Laura. So Laura, I'll let you start.

Annalouiza (01:08.785)
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Laura Musselman (01:28.014)
Sure. Hi, thanks for having me again today. It's nice to see everybody. My name is Laura Musleman and I am an end of life doula. I began my work in end of life care probably about eight years ago now. I trained with the International End of Life Doula Association, ANELDA, and I still work pretty part-time as a death doula, but my full-time job is now with the Humane Prison Hospice Project as their Director of Development and Communications.

Wakil David Matthews (02:09.397)
Nice, yeah. Thank you. And where are you located?

Laura Musselman (02:12.702)
I am in the Bay area of California, but I am from the Central Valley. So I travel back and forth a lot. I still do actually a lot of work with clients in the Central Valley as well. There's a big need there and not as big of a concentration of people doing this specific work. So.

Wakil David Matthews (02:32.801)
Yeah, great. And yeah, do listen to her podcast to hear more about the Prison project, which is really amazing, and check out her website. Great. Thank you. LiElla, how about you?

LiElla Kelly (02:42.832)
I am Laila Kelly and I live in Helena, Montana. I have been a doula for I think about four years now. And I trained with Going with Grace with Alua Arthur. I saw a Ted talk that she did. And at the time I was trying to figure out how I could help people. And I had this idea of this this thing that maybe I could do. And she got on and started talking about my idea. And I was just like, there's somebody for me. So I was super excited when I realized that I wasn't the only one who was thinking along these lines. And I really find value in helping people…

Annalouiza (03:17.733)
Ha ha ha ha.

LiElla Kelly (03:33.094)
… with preparation, hopefully, before they face a crisis. Unfortunately, that's not how the human being tends to work. But I do find that people find great comfort when they start making plans for themselves. It gives people a sense of autonomy. And that is so important when it comes to end of life care. And then the other piece that I am really passionate about is helping families to realize that they can be involved in after death care to whatever degree they're comfortable with. I know that that is a profound thing for me and I have seen the way it helps my clients remain engaged in it too. those are probably the two biggest areas that I find myself just yammering on about constantly.

Wakil David Matthews (04:32.833)
Ha Ha. All right. Thank you, LiElla. Okay, let's see. Let's go down to Karen.

Karen (04:46.315)
Hi everyone. I'm really happy to be here again also. I live in the San Gabriel Valley, which is in the eastern part of Los Angeles. And I've been in practice as a death doula since 2021. 

My real specialty is actually just to hold space in the time that leads up to and including the vigil when the dying person is actively dying. So I guess I could say my concentration is on ushering my client through the transition and across the threshold and then also continuing to hold that space for the loved ones of the dying person.

I like to meet outside in nature in my first meeting if possible and do a little bit of breath work and energy rising to get them connected to their feeling and sensing states. And one of my specialties is working with sound. I use a crystal heart chakra sound bowl. And as a member of threshold choir, I sometimes use soft ethereal celestial music at the bedside for comfort. And I also specialize in creating a beautiful farewell ceremony so that the dying person's loved ones can find a way of honoring and holding that space of love after they're gone.

Wakil David Matthews (06:24.737)
Thank you. Beautiful. Wonderful. Okay, Myra, you're up.

Annalouiza (06:26.808)
Mm-hmm.

Myra (06:30.527)
Well the dog isn't barking right now so fingers crossed. So I've been doing this work for about eight years now. I didn't go and get my doula certificate until, Karen and I got them about the same time. Both of us got them through INELDA. INELDA's been amazing. They're really good at furthering education and so yeah they've been wonderful.

And I came to this work as a photographer, oddly enough, because I was doing pro bono work. I'm going to do this quickly because we did it in the other episode I was in. But I was doing pro bono work as a photographer for unhoused and at risk communities in the Nevada area. And so in that work, I came across people who were in the streets, who were newly released from prison, who were just transient and got stuck and a lot of women and children. And it turns out an enormous amount of elderly folks and folks who are sick and cannot afford healthcare are dying on the street. So I came in contact with that and kind of it changed my life in a lot of ways because I felt like photography is so good for witnessing and bringing awareness, but it wasn't a practical application of service that I could provide. 

And so I really started thinking about how can I provide real service to people who are at the end of their lives. And then so that's where it started. I obviously photography is one of the specialties that I offer. I will do end of life photography, photography of family members for the dying, so they can be surrounded by photos of the people they love, photography for memorial services. So that's a given. But I also, mean, my key…

My key focus is providing comfort, especially to people at the end of their lives and working really hard to make sure that every single day, every single moment until their last breath is as good as we can possibly make it. That's my goal. I am in the business of life until the very last breath. So as a death doula, I really view death as that final moment at the end of a good life. And so every single moment I'm aiming for them to be as comfortable as possible. So I really like to work in tandem with hospice and with family members and really grow a team of care and support around that dying person. That's my goal.

Wakil David Matthews (09:18.571)
Beautiful, Yeah, yeah. And did you say where you were from, where you're working?

Annalouiza (09:19.353)
That is awesome. I love it.

Myra (09:23.692)
I'm sorry, I'm in Los Angeles proper and I serve all of Southern California.

Wakil David Matthews (09:26.666)
Great, wonderful.

Annalouiza (09:30.001)
Great. We have a lot of West Coast folks here in our Montana. Thank you so much for telling us about the lovely work that you all do as death doulas. And if you could just think back to that moment when you were inspired to become a death doula, what would that moment have been like? What could you share about that for our listeners? And we'll start with Laura again.

Laura Musselman (09:55.446)
Yeah, that's an easy one for me to pinpoint. I'm an only child who had the great misfortune of having both of my parents die within a span of two years when I was in my twenties. And my mother was the first to die. She died from early onset Alzheimer's disease. The trajectory was about five, six years, so fairly quick. 

And the day that she died, I remember pacing around outside of her room, kind of wondering like, who's the first person I should call? And I called a couple of family members who were vaguely supportive, but kind of didn't really know how to, I think support me in that moment and definitely didn't have any guidance for me. You know, my parents, neither of them were people who really wanted to spend a lot of time talking about their deaths or, you know, what they wanted or what they thought it should be like. 

And so, you know, at the end of the day, I was just a person who didn't know what I was supposed to do next because nobody had told me and the people who were supposed to tell me were now unable to. And it was kind of just this moment of, really wish there were somebody I could call who could tell me what I'm supposed to do now. In just very practical terms, like, do I call the funeral home? Do I do this? And I had had a lot of interest in end of life care from a really young age philosophy major in college. I taught philosophy for like 10 years in college and so I think I just had this kind of intrinsic drive to want to be the person who not necessarily could give the answers but at least guide people to where they could find the answers and I just sort of decided I would do that.

Wakil David Matthews (12:13.761)
Perfect. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (12:14.725)
Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for your service.

Annalouiza (12:20.685)
And directly beside Laura, LeElla.

LiElla Kelly (12:21.416)
For me, there was, I, like Laura, have always kind of been drawn to that time of life for people. I think that's just something that most people who become doulas kind of have as an innate quality. 

And I had a friend in fact, she died 12 years ago, I think in April of this year, it'll be 12 years. She was a single woman in her 50s. She didn't have any children, but she had a bunch of friends who really loved her, a bunch of very well-intentioned friends who loved her, but they didn't know how to let her take the reins of her own death.

And so people were, like I say, really well intentioned, but they were just making all sorts of decisions for her. And you could see that some of them did not align with what she wanted. you know, and so just kind of like low level drama ensued and hurt feelings here and there and just all this stuff happening around a dying woman. 

And she was the thing that needed to be at the center of it. And I just learned watching that that just like, this could be done better. Death could be done so much better if we just had a little organization, if there was somebody there. And that's when I really started that thought process of, there's got to be a way to, to do that because so many people, don't know what to do. Just like Laura had said, we don't naturally know who do I call next? What do I do for this? But that's where doulas can come in and they can, for lack of a better word, save the day when it comes to kind of putting everything in order and just making people's death as peaceful and as possible and making the death theirs and all about them.

Annalouiza (14:37.905)
I love that. I do too. Next on my screen would be Karen.

Karen (14:48.403)
Yeah, I mean, I was mainly inspired by my previous experiences with family members. I had the great fortune of actually being very close to their journey. My grandmother and actually just recently my dad passed January 5th and what was by his side was by my grandmother's side. But and my brother-in-law about 15 years ago. So I felt like I had sort of been taking some kind of preparation course or something. 

And then after the pandemic, after being locked down in Italy for three months and really sort of confronting the very real possibility of dying myself and seeing so much death around like so many people did during the pandemic, I came back here and had recently retired and was really sort of looking for, I was exploring different pathways during that time. And on New Year's Eve of 2021, I sat down and did a meditation and put out a an intention and that I wanted to find some way of serving others and finding a passionate way to be in my life. And I opened my computer the next day and there it was. 

Annalouiza (16:13.585)
A missive.

Karen 
I saw Doula and I saw Inelda and I signed up for the training and the rest is history.

Annalouiza (16:23.003)
Beautiful. Gorgeous. Wonderful. And Myra, what was it like for you?

Myra (16:33.63)
Well, I came up with a lot of the generational angst around me. lot of my, companions committed suicide when I was in high school and college. And I had a lot of family members die and, you know, I, I felt like I was surrounded by death a lot growing up. And I think just my awareness of it was always kind of forefront.

My grandfather's death was quite defining for me because he was my father figure. And I found myself at 15 comforting, you know, my uncle on the front steps, which should have been the other way around. But that was just, I fell very naturally into that role. So I've always been really comfortable with the end of life and confronted it, you know, as a concept for a very long time. 

But really, I just thought, that's just my personality. I just have, you I'm real fun at parties. You I can, you know, we're talking about things at a party and the next thing you know, I've got us talking philosophy, you know. So I just thought that's, you know, that's just how I behave. 

But then of course, like I was saying, I was working pro bono as a photographer and actually coming, you know, face to face with people who just didn't have any resources, didn't know who to call, going to these events that were put on by Nevada Homeless Alliance, where they would provide resources or at least give them outlets to find resources. But a lot of times, there's not a lot that these organizations can do because these people cannot access healthcare. They don't know where their social security card is. They don't have a driver's license. They don't have access to buses and a bus pass is only good for one day.

You know, so that's when I started really thinking about tangible ways. Okay, so who are the people that bridge the gap between medical and funeral care versus that mid, that interim section of end of life care? You know, the moments before death, who helps with that? And then after they pass and all of those organizations forget them, who helps them grieve, right? So that was what made me really start to look into the idea of becoming a death doula.

Annalouiza (18:59.939)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, it's that unknowing. We don't live in a culture where we see natural episodes of dying in our family members' lives so that we can have information handed to us as we go along. And not all information is the right information either, right? Like, I recently asked a friend called and said, if my spouse dies, she has long term cancer. She could die anytime. 

And he said, I suddenly realized nobody's told me who to call. Like, do I call 911? Do I call a funeral home? And it was in that moment when I realized a death doula would be so helpful for this family, right? Because the questions, and if she doesn't or he doesn't know the answer, they go out and find the answers so that those loved ones around the dying person can continue to hold that space rather than frantically spending time on the internet or making phone calls and you know just getting kind of swept along away from the sacred moments that are happening. So I really appreciate so much how all of you have seen this firsthand and stepped into that role.

Wakil David Matthews (20:18.729)
Yeah, yeah, it's really inspiring. And I think a lot of people, hopefully people listening to this will notice their own inspiration and or know that this is a really excellent resource, resource for them to go to. So thank you. was really, I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed by all of that.

Annalouiza (20:37.585)
Well, I'm just grateful all of these beautiful people are in our world and helping others, right? Like, ah

Wakil David Matthews (20:43.765)
Yeah, yeah. And these are kind of a representation, even though they're on the West Coast, they're everywhere. They're not only on the West Coast. So it's really good to know that this is available to folks. And there are good resources in INELDA, and others are good resources for people. We'll talk more about that in a minute. So just wondering if any of you have a story you would like to share, kind of about what you have when you've worked with somebody that would exemplify all the work that you do and how you serve the dying and their beloveds.

Wakil David Matthews (21:19.265)
Yeah, let's go back.

Myra (21:19.334)
I can go first this time. actually, I literally just concluded with a client on Monday and it was a special case because as Karen knows, because it was two months of care and usually, you know, we know people for a couple of days a week before they pass. So it was very unusual circumstance and I wound up working as basically an interim care provider for about two months for him and his family and being their doula for a full two months, which is such a different end result, you know, and the process is so different from just walking in and meeting somebody saying you're going to help them take their MAID medication and then you don't see them again, you know, so it was very unique for me and very beautiful and full of learning.

And so in that in that case, I can't really give you details about the case, but I can tell you some of the things we did. The the gentleman was 90 years old and lived with his wife. So they were elderly and he had a terminal illness, but it didn't have an end date, so he couldn't get into hospice. So that is always a real issue. 

So what we wound up doing is he wanted to come in and he wanted to do VSED, which is voluntary stopping eating and drinking. That's how I initially came into the case. And so we had meetings with the family. We did a lot of that kind of stuff where I informed the family about processes and what to expect and things of that nature, answered questions. I went to visits with him to his doctors to help his doctors get on board. 

And then through that work of talking with his doctors, I was able to convince the doctors to get that hospice order signed. And in the meantime, I'm visiting the home many, many hours a day, providing basically hospice care. And he was a huge fan of massage. So I was massaging him full body for like four times a day, doing the dishes, doing the laundry, making sure his bed was clean, you know, all that stuff. So the practical stuff and also helping them with their paperwork, making sure that that was all in order, doing videos for his VSED so that there was a legal video of him saying what his wishes were, right? So we did all those types of things. And then after he was able to get signed into hospice, MAID became available. So we were able to create a MAID date for him, which is medical aid in dying, for those who don't know. I know you guys do, but and that was a miracle.

It was like it changed the entire landscape of how he was going to be able to say goodbye to his family. He was going to be able to, instead of fading off through VSED he was going to be able to be present and himself until the very last minute. And it was such a blessing to the whole family. so without going into detail about the case itself, I can tell you that that's like the scope of two months of work. And there were days I was there for 13 hours a day, a lot. There were days where I came and went a lot, which is, you so it's just you, you do what's needed. It is kind of my approach. I figure out what they need and then I try to meet that gap. And if I can't, I try to find people who can. So I don't know that's what you're asking exactly, but.

Annalouiza (24:54.093)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. OK. Yeah. Well, it is. it's one kind of support that can be given by a dathula. And I just want to just point out, this is not normal to do 13-hour days, I presume. So I want people to hear that and say, this is an exceptional case. And a listener may have that type of an exceptional case and can ask for this type of service. And, you know, yes, it's, they're all different and that's what we're trying to, to. So it's just.

Myra (25:28.292)
Yeah, this was very different. But not in the particulars, like not in the ways that we all, the things that we all do, right? so it was special and I'm still processing that.

Wakil David Matthews (25:39.425)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would assume that in that kind of a case, you'd only have one client at a time, right? Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:46.585)
Right. Right. Right.

Myra (25:46.65)
Yeah, could, there's no way I could have had another client. Yeah. Whereas when I'm doing MAID cases, I can see multiples in a week, you know? So it's very different every time and every single client, I feel like we're learning something.

Annalouiza (25:55.407)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. And every human is having a very different experience too, which is, you know, with the beauty and the mystical part of this job and, you know, it's all going to be new every single time.

Wakil David Matthews (26:16.141)
Yeah, exactly. Everybody lives and dies in their own unique way. We've heard that many times. So, Karen, can you have a good story you could share with us?

Karen (26:27.149)
I have a story. It's very different from what Myra was discussing, but I think that's good because just the scope of our practice is very, it's multi-layered. And this experience has, I also can't give too many details, 

Annalouiza (26:47.109)
Yeah, and all of us know that, right? That's like no details, it's an overview.

Wakil David Matthews (26:54.176)
Yeah.

Karen (26:56.393)
But I'll just say for the sake of privacy, I'll just make my client John and John was in the last stages. It was about two weeks before he passed. And I was doing regular visits with him. And he and his wife had two children, a two-year-old and a six-year-old boy. And the client's parents were also in the home from out of town. They were staying in the nearby area, but they were in the home a lot. And John's father had some very firm ideas about discipline and how you deal with children. 

And at one point, the little six year old boy did not want to go into the room to see his dad. He was terrified and he just refused to go in there. And the father became very disgruntled and angry and blamed the mother for not having proper discipline, for teaching the child that he must support his father and show him love. 

And just as an aside, from the time I arrived on the scene, the father actually ignored me and didn't make any effort to interact with me at all, although the mother and I were becoming close and you know, I was providing a lot of support for her as well. Which I just let him have his space. I recognized that he was in a tremendous amount of pain and losing his son and did not pressure him at all to interact with me. I just was there and holding space for the whole family.

And when I spoke with John about the situation, it was just one day when I was there and he disclosed to me that he was having the situation with his dad, he was very upset about it. He didn't know what to do and he didn't have the strength to manage that kind of dynamic. And I just held space for him and listened and just provided the kind of guidance that we do. And eventually he said that he felt that he needed to talk to his father. 
And I left him that day and then came back. I think it was about five days later I came back and he was very relieved and at peace with the situation. said that he had talked to his father, his father had apologized to his wife and realized that he had overstepped his bounds and the whole situation had been resolved. And it was very interesting because after John died, the day he died, the father came over, the parents came over to the house and once the father went in to see John and said his goodbyes and came out and he just looked at me and came towards me and I held out my arms and he just gave me this full embrace and started sobbing.

He just broke down and it was just such a beautiful moment and the next day when we were grief processing, just going over what had gone on, he just completely opened up and talked about, you know, how difficult it had been for him and he was aware that he had been difficult with others and just had this, it was just a beautiful, beautiful process and I think that is one of the aspects of our practice and our work that is just so fulfilling and helpful and supportive.

Wakil David Matthews (30:34.913)
Wow, beautiful. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:35.813)
That is great to hear and it's a lot, right? But I love that you've had the training to support not just the person who is in process of dying, but to recognize what's going on around it. be receptive to whatever they might need, but not overstep it. Your focus is on the person who's dying. so that is, know, a lot of families find themselves in fraught situations when someone is dying like, you know, for any number of reasons. So the fact that death doulas are trained to listen and hopefully help navigate those tricky waters is really it's invaluable.

Myra (31:18.99)
I think, I feel like that's true whether you're in a situation where the family supports the decision or doesn't support the decision because that fraught tension is going to exist in one way or another. It's not always because there's like outward tension. It's the tension of somebody's dying, you know, and it's amazing how it comes out.

Wakil David Matthews (31:40.169)
Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Yeah, that's so true. And it's so good to really hear that and recognize that when you're if you're going through this and to have people around who know the work and that must be in some ways imagine that some of the hardest work to do because you've got to also be connected to yourself and your own center and your own ground to be able to be present for others. So thank you for that. LiElla, do you have a story to share with us?

LiElla Kelly (32:05.86)
It's not so much that I have a specific story, but as I was listening to Karen talk, I realized that the thread that has gone through every single client that I have worked with has been that listening piece. And just because yeah, whatever is going on, there's, you know, there's the family dynamic thing that might be going on. And yes, there's going to be that underlying tension and it's, it's going to bubble up at different times. And, and if you can listen to them and let them just say what they need to say so that they can move forward. You know, listening to the client so that you can hear what they actually need. 

And, you know, even I, I have one right now that's a long distance situation where I know the client. I know I she is my client in a different world that I work in. And it's her brother who's dying and she is trying to take care of him. And she was telling me I just asked her, know, how's it going? And she was just mentioning a couple little things. And like one of the things that she just said is, you know, he goes from he's sleeping 21 hours a day and then he wakes up and says, I gotta go get a job. And she's commenting on this and I was just like, ooh, you need to talk to him about that job because that can signal a transition that he's trying to make. it's just, these are just little things, but if that is one of the things we're trying to do is listen and pick up on those little things. And yeah, I won't go into all of what that transition can mean that what he was saying there with that or what he might be saying with that. But yeah, I just think that ability to listen, and that's something that anybody, whether they're a doula or not, but anybody who is going into that end of life space, if they can practice their listening skills and try their very best to put themselves on the shelf a bit, that can be immensely helpful for your loved one.

Annalouiza (34:29.617)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (34:29.767)
Yeah, yeah, so true. Thank you. Thank you. Beautiful. Okay, Laura, what's your you got a story for us?

Laura Musselman (34:40.408)
I do. I've been sitting here kind of thinking about a couple of different stories that come to mind, but I think the one that probably exemplifies best the scope of work that we do and why it's useful is one that it happened a few years ago. I was actually working at a hospice. 

So this situation kind of organically evolved from being at work in that setting and wearing that hat and then after hours putting on a different hat. But the person in question was a three month old baby I think this is one of those situations that's worth talking about because for me, the whole experience really highlighted how unprepared so many people are to work with a patient that age. 

Even if you're a person who has a lot of hospice experience and you've been at the bedside of, you know, so many people, there's something about the loss of a child of an infant that is really, really provocative for a lot of people. And you know, for me, this was obviously a situation where I couldn't ask my client, my patient, you know, what it was that they wanted. For me, it was, you know, if I'm gonna spend three months on this earth, I'd wanna just be held. 

But there was a lot of judgment kind of from a lot of angles in that situation where, you the parents were being judged for choices they'd made for their baby's care, their lack, and I'm putting this in quotes, their lack of presence in the situation. You know, these were parents who were completely blindsided by the situation, who had three other children at home who they were caring for and trying to be present for. And, you know, so for me in that situation, it was, it was so important to just introduce physical touch, holding, and quiet to the situation and to really kind of try to negotiate with anybody coming in and out of the room that it was not a space to speculate about why these grieving shell-shocked parents were making the choices they were making and who were ultimately there for their child the moment that they died. my hat was off to them for balancing all the things that they were balancing. And also, so much gratitude that they trusted me enough to be that person with their child. 

Again, this was a case many, many hours of a day. would finish my hospice shift, go home, take a bit of a breather, eat something, and then come back into the early hours of the morning just to be present. So yeah, that's one of those situations that is unique. And I was thinking also while I was talking that I didn't discuss upfront any of my kind of specialty areas, but I have a friend, another death doula who jokes that I tend to work in the fringiest of fringy death spaces. 

And it is one of those things where I realized, you know, I'm kind of watching these very experienced, very professional people around me fall apart because of this and not for no good reason, but, you know, for whatever reason, I kind of discovered I had a knack for staying calm in those situations and recognizing that although it's such a delicate situation, that doesn't mean that the need is less. If anything, I think the need is more because it's also so isolating for that family and so difficult to talk about. yeah, really open to a lot of kind of judgmental responses from people who you would hope would not necessarily come into the space that way. So it was a good moment to have a death doula.

Annalouiza (39:57.445)
Yes, I appreciate you standing there and holding that space for that little family. Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (39:57.511)
Yeah, yeah, wow.

Myra (40:10.288)
that does become our role a lot. We become that dam wall between judgment or people coming in to spaces with the wrong energy. That's part of our job is to say, that's, I respect what you're going through, but that's not what we're doing right now. Yeah.

Laura Musselman (40:30.454)
Yeah, I think it's hard for people, you no matter how long you've been working in end of life care or health care to not kind of project your own feelings and grief onto a situation. And it really requires that very basic return to just being present. Like what is happening here in the moment? What is needed? What can I give and what needs to be kept out of this space to make it as good as possible. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:05.657)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (41:06.119)
That's safe, yeah.

Yeah, great. Yeah, I'm I'm so moved by the spectrum of care I hear here and the spectrum of love and compassion.

Annalouiza (41:26.705)
Yes. you know, also what I hear, love, thank you, Laura, for sharing that as a, your, your story. And, you know, we had, we heard about MAID where somebody decides to end their life at a certain time. have elders who are passing, right? So we have a spectrum of death care that we death helpers help with, right?

And so for the listener, want them to hopefully have this moment and think about like, it's not just for my parents that I can start thinking about this. This is about my friends who might be having children. And if something goes sideways for my friend, I can say, listen, we might want to have a death doula with us. 

And, especially with parents, like they don't get this information because the perceived notion of the industrialized medical system is like, we're going to get through this, but maybe we don't. And a death doula would be just the most divine entity to show up in that moment. Right. 

So, and so based on all your stories, though, I want to discuss payment, how are you compensated for this time? And it's really interesting to me that we have somebody who on one occasion spent 13 hours a day, you know, and sometimes I've been with people who it's only for a week because that's it. Like they just got sick and it's the end. So in a nutshell for you, when you have people coming to ask you, tell me what you would respond and like, how do you get paid? So, LiElla.

LiElla Kelly (43:25.992)
So one of my big missions, I also am on the board of funeral industry in my state. I just wish that everything was super transparent when it came to end of life, that we didn't have to, you know, like do work to find out what things cost. So on my website, you can clearly see prices, just because that's the way I work and that's how I want to work. And so I do have things that I do that are just hourly and it really depends on who I'm approaching. If I'm going to be with somebody, maybe I'm doing really practical things for them. Their death maybe is not imminent. 

So then I'll just do an hourly rate. If I do my end-of-life planning, that's kind of a package rate for that. And then when push comes to shove and we're actually in the dying process, that is where my rates really get all loosey-goosey because I just can never bring myself to charge hourly for how much work I put in. I kind of know what the hourly would be. And then generally it's just reaching a point that feels right. And there just has to be an exchange in there. So I do put a specific price so that people could kind of know what they're getting into with me. And then it all is just very flexible just because it has to be. This just can't be a hard and fast. That doesn't feel right. So that's how I do it.

Annalouiza (45:26.295)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.

Wakil David Matthews (45:28.372)
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful. Yeah, who else would like to tell us about this part? This has been something we've had several conversations about because it can be a little challenging. mean, we're all here because we are compassionate, loving people who want to give service. And so to even charge it all sometimes feels like, I don't want to do that. But it's important. It's important. So yeah, go ahead, Myra.

Myra (45:57.83)
Yeah, I was just going to say, you know what LiElla is talking about, you know, that it, you know, you're kind of adjusting as the client's needs become obvious. So if I'm doing MAID, I have a flat fee that I charge straight up. It's I keep it very, very simple and straightforward. And it's about half of the industry standard because that's just the way I broke it down for myself. If I'm doing VSED, that's gonna be more of a package deal and we're gonna go week by week, right? Because there's gonna be some time ahead of starting VSED, there's gonna be the VSED process. I will say I always try to make sure they aren't paying me a bill on the day of ingestion or on the day of death.

I try to be very, very conscious of that. I try to be very transparent about what things are going to cost ahead of time. I don't try, I am. I'm very, very, very clear about that kind of thing. But also, you know, I work on a sliding scale a lot. If it's very obvious that somebody has financial challenges, I'm not going to charge them my MAID flat fee. I'm going to adjust according to what I'm seeing in front of me. 

And so this is where the the kind of experiential aspect comes into play, you really start to draw on your own life experience, understanding what you're seeing in front of you, listening for what they're not saying, that kind of thing. But yeah, I have things that are flat fees. if, you know, I'm a maker and a musician. So if I'm doing music or making a legacy project with you, that's gonna have a very specific fee schedule and parameters, right? If I'm going to be coming in every week and doing a certain amount of hours. I'm not going to charge you hourly. I'm going to charge you for the week. Right. And there's going to be really clear communication on that. So that's how I do it.

Wakil David Matthews (48:02.657)
Yeah, nice. I think that last thing you said is the most important thing, communication. People need to know why they're paying what they're paying. Karen or Lauren?

Annalouiza (48:07.057)
Mm-hmm.

Myra (48:11.686)
100%.

Karen (48:15.499)
I think it's a really tricky issue actually because our industry is so still evolving and there's not a lot of awareness. I've had experiences where someone will come to me and they don't really understand exactly what my role is. so they start inquiring about the service and then we talk about payment. 

I have similar, just like the others, I have a flat fee rate for like an hourly. And then I have service packages. also do I offer memoir writing as one of my services. So I have sort of a package of memoir writing service. And I've had clients where it became clear to me that they really didn't have the funds at all. 

I just recently had a client inquire and it was her mother and her mother was a retired school teacher and had a reverse mortgage and barely had money to pay for the care that she was receiving and you know, I got into a discussion with this woman who ended up being, turns out she was a, has a business helping women in nonprofit, as a nonprofit helping women in business. And she said, I really want to help your industry because this is ridiculous that there's not some kind of support and benefit available to people for this service. And I ended up offering pro bono, my work pro bono for them, but she, she ended up not needing the service because her mother went so quickly. And so I was just there telling her that if she needed any help, please contact me. 

But so I think it is, it's really about communication and about sort of listening again and figuring out what's possible for the dying person, their family and I am in the fortunate position of not having to use this as my primary financial support, but I do think it's very important because people feel that there is more value to the service you're providing if they do have to pay for it.

Wakil David Matthews (50:31.328)
Yeah, that's very true. Yes.

Laura Musselman (50:41.11)
Yeah, my answer is not much different than anybody else's. I do have a price sheet that outlines, as clearly as possible, like an hourly rate, a flat rate for certain things, know, aid in dying, flat rate. I guess the true answer is it's very, very, very sliding scale. And it is so dependent on so many things like the extent of the needs, but also how that person's approaching me. Because sometimes I get inquiries where they very much understand that there's some aspect of a business transaction here. 

But I also get inquiries from people where maybe they just need a phone call to kind of suss out their options or, you know, get a few quick practical answers about where to go next. And, you know, the honest truth is I think probably 90 % of any doula work I do now is really pretty pro bono. You know, I started doing this. I don't think I've tried to think of this as something I would make a full-time living from, maybe ever. Which is why I also like have my my other full-time job.

I just, got into this because I thought it was important to, you know, reestablish that position of like being a member of a community who can kind of provide this guidance. And I guess there are cases where it makes a lot more sense to charge people. That's what they're expecting. I think it makes sense to charge people for our labor, which is a lot. I think it makes sense to put a charge on it for you know, the respect that the work deserves. And at the same time, I don't personally feel good, you know, having like a phone call with somebody who's in need in crisis and then saying, okay, well, that was 45 minutes and my hourly rate is this. And so I'm going to, I just, I just don't even charge for that anymore. Yeah.

Myra (52:58.854)
Yeah. Yeah, that's the discovery call. That's what I have on my website. Do you just need to know what's out there? Just give me a call.

Laura Musselman (53:08.782)
Yeah. And even when they're kind of beyond discovery, like I really just, I don't know. It's such a lame answer probably, but a lot of it comes down to just that intuition. Like here's where your needs are, here's where your expectations are, here's what I'm going to be offering. And so we kind of go from there. This is either going to be just totally pro bono or I'm going to charge you this hourly rate and we're going to be really transparent and clear about that and involve a contract or you've come to me because of aid and dying and that's a flat rate and you kind of go from there.

Annalouiza (53:45.68)
Right.

Myra (53:46.244)
It's a good point though, because we do have to, at some point, if we're doing this a lot, we do have to charge because resource becomes an issue. We have to have the resources, whether that's physical, emotional, or financial, to provide for our clients. And so you're always dancing that dance of, you know, how do I make sure I can keep doing this work? And one of those things is you do have to take a variety of clients, clients who can pay you and clients who might not be able to.

Annalouiza (53:54.732)
Mm-hmm.

Myra (54:15.674)
And it helps you find that even keel, I think, as well. Clients who have means often tell me, you don't charge enough. But in my mind, I'm charging enough so that if I have my next client who cannot pay me, I can do that. I can provide for that person. it's what Laura is saying. You're just always trying to figure that out.

Annalouiza (54:29.463)
Mm-hmm, it evens out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep.

Laura Musselman (54:41.388)
Which I think is why it's always such a tricky conversation. Like I remember, you know, years ago when I first kind of started doing this, I got so stuck on like, my God, what do I charge? What's my hourly rate? You know, when I'm looking at what like birth doulas in my area charge and I'm kind of basing it off of that. And the truth is that once you get into it and once you're doing it, 

I mean, I've found just in my own experience that those conversations about cost and payment with clients come about actually pretty organically. Like there's definitely people who they don't really know what they're looking for and maybe they don't need much. They just need somebody to kind of get them turned in the right direction. And then there are people who are absolutely coming to you with like, these are the needs. I understand that this is a service I'm paying for and, and you proceed as such.

Wakil David Matthews (55:41.439)
Yeah, makes sense.

Myra (55:41.446)
I'm curious if some of you other doulas have run into, you know, you'll go to another doula website and the costs are so inflated and you're sitting there going, why are they charging so much for that? Like I see that all the time.

Annalouiza (55:52.175)
Yeah. Well, and I was actually going to point out I love this conversation because I too charge for my services. I too wish I didn't have to charge for my services. I have sometimes worked through a funeral home who takes half of what I charge. Right. So I wonder if some services are under the umbrella of another organization who takes a part of that of that charge. Right. 

So for listeners like If you go directly to a doula, it's probably straight costs. But if you're finding it through a funeral home who offers some of these, that money will not go directly 100 % to the provider. I think that's actually pretty true. And I also want to point out that we are all people who have taken a lot of certification classes. We've done a lot of training work. I spend money on supervision. spend money on therapy. spend money on my spiritual direction. 

So, we come to our fellow humans in support and in love with a lot of training behind us. We are not just throwing on a cap one day and just setting out the door and hanging a shingle. And so for listeners, this is our life work. And we've been spending money. 
Wakil David Matthews (57:13.697)
Yeah, there's real value. There's real value. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (57:18.609)
There is a lot of value to these to all of us who are doing, we want to do the best. And the best means that we keep up with our own learning and training and certifying. And right, it's continual. We get together and talk to other people who are dualing. And we find out about things. And oh, that's an interesting thing. Sometimes you have to show up with tools of the trade that cost money to replace once you use them. So again, these services are not just random. 

And I always think about this. So I call myself a death midwife because I show up with herbs. I show up with a lot of things. When my birth midwife showed up, she showed up with a box of all kinds of things that were needed. And I see people supporting end of life similarly, right? We show up with our tools. So I have a bag. I have a bag too, right? I have my all my tools in there that I just like pick up and head out. So, so yes.

Myra (58:01.094)
Yeah, yeah. a whole bag. Yeah.

Karen (58:03.703)
That's good.

Myra (58:11.814)
And each job you're finding new things you need too. That's the other thing, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (58:14.56)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (58:14.681)
Yes. Yes. And so again, it is a really, it's hard for us because all of us do this with so much love. And so if you're out there and you're going to ask this question to our, you know, or your doula down the road, just really listen to like, you know, who am I working with? This person comes with a lot of a lot of joy in what they're doing and is going to help my family move through this. So yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (58:41.877)
Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking for the people, for the people of means, you could have a little donation button. Yeah, yeah. If you think this isn't enough, feel free to give me more.

Myra (58:51.696)
Yeah, you can give me more. That's, I mean, that's fine.

Annalouiza (58:54.501)
Yeah, Laura.

Laura Musselman (58:56.186)
I was going to say, think the other kind of angle of this too is that, you know, when we talk about how much we would like to see one day, let's say like death doulas be covered by insurance, which would be great. You know, there has to be sort of a value, like this is what this thing costs. for that to be able to happen someday. I think, you know, that's why I think it's so individual and I think it's so, I think it's really necessary to have that really clear, transparent, available, like pricing, this is what this work is worth. And then also be able to, as a practitioner, say like, okay, but I'm not gonna do it in this instance. I'm gonna do it differently for this, right, yeah.

Myra (59:50.254)
Yeah, you'll have discretion. Yeah. Well, and if we ever get I'm so sorry, Wachil.

Wakil David Matthews (59:53.089)
In a way you're building a bridge for that time, perhaps, you although I will say my wife was a music therapist, went through years and years and years of not being covered by insurance. And they finally had the state, it took years of, of trouble and hassle to get the state to license them so that they could be contracted through the state and through other organizations. So I'm not sure you want that headache because it adds up to, you know, it's like what happened to hospice where hospice used to be nonprofit and share and compassion. And now it's all about the bottom line and it's become part of the industrial complex, elder industrial complex. it's a lot more trouble. Most of the people I know who work in hospice spend at least half their time documenting for the bureaucracy. 

Annalouiza (01:00:30.957)
Shareholders.
Insurance forms.

Myra (01:00:45.328)
Well, honestly, so do I though, the amount of notes that I write on every case, because if I do wind up in court, I need to have a record of everything that happened, you know? So, I mean, if we're doing that anyways, it would be so nice if doulas could go the same route as birth doulas, if death doulas could go to, and we could actually have, you know, universities and things like that. 

Because if we have some sort of national level certification that actually has meaning in the sphere of care, right, that would enable us to be covered by insurance and enable doctors to trust us more and really start to help us bridge those gaps. That is, I believe it would be a net positive if we continued, you know, but I just, see that as where we might be going, but it feels a long ways away right now.

Wakil David Matthews (01:01:38.113)
It does, yeah.

Laura Musselman (01:01:38.766)
Yeah. Well, I think there's such a fine line too, because, you know where I want these services to be completely and utterly accessible to everyone who needs them. A lot of my, you know, paying clients are people who really do outside of hiring on an end of life doula have good, you know, access to healthcare and support as it is. and how do we, how do we make compassionate care accessible to people who do not have the means or who do not have insurance and do not have those things. And I'm equally wary of, and I'm okay if I'm the only one on this hill in this conversation, but I'm wary of death doula certification. It introduces this kind of gatekeeping thing of, this is work that people have been doing in their families and communities for millennia.

And now we're going to say like, okay, but here are the X, Y, Z things that you really need to, I don't know, have or have paid in order to be able to do it. It's just, it's a complicated conversation.

Myra (01:02:57.24)
Oh god yes.

Annalouiza (01:02:57.329)
It's complicated. It is really complicated. I love I'll stand on your hill with you, Laura, because I want to have everyone have that access as well. Right. And I want listeners to know that they could be their death, their loved ones, death doula is as well. You know, it's just a matter of like getting ready, being prepared, get this done before somebody needs your help and you're you're there for them. So, you know, the other side of that coin is like, I would like to be compensated for the amount of work and energy that I'm spending because I too have a family and my life, right? And I like trainings and whatnot. yes, it's a both and.

Myra (01:03:38.744)
It is, it's two things can be true at once, right? Like we really want to be able to provide service to all and have accessibility be a key issue that we can provide, you know, but we also really want to establish ourselves as an entity, right? And so it would be nice if we could have some control over, you know, how we are perceived in these fields. But yeah, it's a sticky wicket.

Wakil David Matthews (01:04:06.079)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. That's a great conversation. And we want to keep moving. So the last question we have under that I'd like to just throw out for folks is if somebody was looking for a death doula, what kind of questions would you suggest they ask to find a person that would match up with them?

And let's start with Karen. Since Karen and LiElla have been kind of quiet, let's start with Karen and see what they have to offer in that regard.

Karen (01:04:35.249)
I had a really hard time thinking about this question because when I thought about it, was, well, the number one thing is just location. Because I'm in LA County, the client, one of the clients that I'm working with right now, when she talked to me about how she found me, she basically was looking for someone that was close enough in this area because LA County is so vast and so spread out.

So I think that's a huge issue in my area. I'm willing to drive certain distances, but that can get very tricky at the end when someone is in vigiill, when you need to be there more frequently around the clock or whatever it might be. So I think that is a huge question to discuss. 

I had difficulty with it because when I think about the questions that a client should ask me, it makes me think, well, the first question that they need to ask is to themselves, which is what are my needs in this situation? What is it that I'm looking for? And I know that they have a hard time possibly articulating that to themselves. So my job is to guide that conversation so that they can actually come to the questions that they might need to ask me, which I can't be aware of that.

Annalouiza (01:05:48.335)
knowing.

Wakil David Matthews (01:05:59.425)
Right. Yeah, that's a really good answer.

Karen (01:06:02.025)
It's tricky, but I think that's, you know, other questions might be, you know, like, are you able to support MAID or VSED if that's what they're interested in? It's on our websites, but still they might want to ask us more about that and talk about it. If it's recently, I had someone inquire about a mother who had dementia. So, you know, is it possible to do doula work with a person that has dementia? That's a huge question. And how would that be approached? And I was able to discuss that with the person and answer those questions. 

Those are my main, and probably then just the issue of spiritual beliefs. Like they should ask, you know, if they are concerned with having someone that is aligned with their spirituality and are worried that they might not be, they might want to bring that up to the doula and just find out and try to discover where you are on that path.

Wakil David Matthews (01:07:03.009)
Yeah, good point. Yeah. LiElla, you actually mentioned working with somebody remotely. So what other questions might you have or would you suggest people ask?

LiElla Kelly (01:07:10.6)
For me, I would say it's not that I so much have a specific question as much as the idea that the work that we do is very intimate and you're going to be inviting us into your home and into this really sacred space. And so I want you to be as comfortable with me as possible. you just do not like my vibe for whatever reason, you don't want me there, you know, it's just, so I, you know, I want people to really ask me anything that is going to make them feel comfortable. 

And I know that's like, I try and keep a social media presence, which I don't love social media. It's not my favorite place. But I do try and, and just keep a presence there so that if people do want to look and see, you know, this is just her talking about whatever, so that they can kind of get that feel because yeah, I don't want them and I don't want them to be uncomfortable in any way. And so yeah, if that has to do with your spiritual beliefs or whatever kind of practical thing, you know, you need to just anything, ask it so that you can be as comfortable as possible.

Wakil David Matthews (01:08:36.917)
Yeah, yeah, very good, very good. How about Myra?

Annalouiza (01:08:38.449)
Beautiful.

Myra (01:08:46.502)
I was sure you're going to go to Laura next. I really think it's important for you know if they start asking me a lot of questions about me what I usually try to do is start asking them questions about them because we know what services we can provide and they often don't so a lot of times what I'm trying to figure out is what do they need and if I can meet that need.

You know, I offer a lot of different services. But again, to LiElla's point too, personality also comes into play. So you are really trying in that first phone call or that first meeting to establish what are their needs? And are we going to work well together? Are our communication styles going to work well together? Or if they don't jive immediately, is this something I can adjust? Because my job is to adjust to them, right?
 
Um, I think a lot of times what we're trying to do when we first talk with somebody is establish those two parameters. What do they need? And can I be the person that can do those things for them? Cause even if I provide the services they're looking for, if we don't jive, I'm not the right person. 

Wakil David Matthews (01:10:03.585)
It's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah.

Myra (01:10:15.012)
A nd that's why Karen and I, I mean, we, we have a death doula collaborative and we, you know, doulas are all welcome by the way, but, but we really want to make sure that if it's not us, that we can put them onto somebody who might be able to help them. I think doulas should talk. I think that this is one of the key aspects actually is if we can't provide those services, can we help them find somebody who can? Because there's already too many questions for them.

Wakil David Matthews (01:10:32.361)
Yeah, perfect. Yeah, Great, perfect. Laura, do have more to add to that, this conversation? I know we leave you at the end, then you have to figure out what to add.

Laura Musselman (01:10:42.899)
No, it's fine. Yeah, I have things to add. And I've definitely done that before where somebody's, you know, approached me and I've referred them to somebody else because their experience is more aligned with that person's needs, which, for me is, I think the really important thing to look for or, you know, to try to question if you're somebody who's looking for a death doula, I think.

Ultimately, a good death doula is someone who can listen deeply and who understands the complexities involved in end of life care and can hold space in a way that is grounded and informed and genuinely present. So, you know, for me, I encourage people to prioritize experience over aesthetics. I think there's a very big difference between someone who really has that skill of holding space at a bedside, who's witnessed and supported people through that dying process, and somebody who's kind of trying on the role, like who wants to embody that role. I think it's important to kind of know in a death doula like what their experience with death and dying is and how much time have they spent doing this work. 

 I think that, as death doulas, don't need to have all the answers, but I think we should have the depth of presence and the experience to be able to navigate the uncertainties present in end of life with skill and also humility. I get nervous sometimes that we have a lot of specialties and we have a lot of add-ons and we have a lot of things that we can kind of bring to the table, but I never want the real like practical hands on human centered work of guiding people and their loved ones through dying to get lost in that. 

Wakil David Matthews (01:13:06.824)
Yeah, yeah, very well put.

Myra (01:13:09.104)
Professionalism, professionalism, professionalism, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Be a pro.

Wakil David Matthews (01:13:12.651)
Yeah, yeah, so important. I do want to point out one thing to our listeners, that even though everyone here is female, there are actually male doulas. Yeah… 

Annalouiza (01:13:22.541)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And also people of color. There's all white people here. I'm like, there's all this.

Myra (01:13:27.846)
Please, yeah. Please. Yeah, we, yes, please. my gosh,

Wakil David Matthews (01:13:36.415)
Yeah, and that's we actually invited some of that some of those other representatives who couldn't be here with us. I did want to make that point that that's important to know, because culturally, sometimes that can be really important. So that might be another question to ask about, you know, what do you know about my culture specifically? 

Annalouiza (01:13:44.059)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Laura Musselman (01:13:49.166)
And those are the cases where I've referred out. I think it's really important.

Myra (01:13:53.264)
That's right, yeah.

Myra (01:14:00.356)
It is to know other doulas, get to know other doulas, because you will not be the one for everybody. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (01:14:04.854)
Yeah. Which is another good reason to have that cooperative and that connection with so many. 
Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been way cool.

Annalouiza (01:14:11.769)
Yes. You're my people.

Wakil
The one last thing we like to do is share some poems if people brought some poetry and or if anybody has anything else you'd like to add just before we round wrapped this up. Karen, go ahead.

Karen (01:14:37.549)
I just wanted to add a quick plug because of especially because Laura mentioned someone who had lost a child. My doula partner sister Phoenix who's been on this show and I are gonna be holding a child loss support group in March, March 23rd. It's gonna be online. It's through Eventbrite. I have a flyer.

So if you are aware of anyone that might benefit from that, it's going to be a two-hour session. two of us. It's on March 23rd from 4 to 6 p.m.

Wakil David Matthews (01:15:14.113)
Tell me when that was again.

Myra (01:15:32.742)
I love our group, Karen. Oh, I'm so excited for you guys. With the best girls, love it.

I have one, I'm not sure it's the right tone. But I'll read it if you guys want.

Wakil David Matthews (01:15:49.099)
Okay, your choice.

Annalouiza (01:15:52.549)
Give a shot. Poetry is always welcome though.

Myra (01:15:54.31)
Okay, are you guys familiar with Wendel Berry?

Myra (01:16:01.254)
So this is entitled, Grief.

The morning comes. The old woman, a spot of soot where she has touched her cheek tears on her face, builds a fire. Sets water to boil, puts the skillet on.

The man in his middle years, bent by the work he has done for the work he will do. Weeps as he eats, bread in his mouth, tears on his face.

They shape the day for its passing as if absent from it for what needs care, caring, feeding what must be fed. 

To keep them there are only the household's remembered ways etched thin and brittle by their tears. It is a sharp light that lights the day now. It seems to shine beyond eyesight also in another day where the dead have risen and are walking away, their backs forever turned. 

What look is in their eyes? What do they say as they walk into the fall and flow of light? It seems that they must know where they are going, and the living must go with them, not knowing, a little way. 

And the dead go on, not turning, knowing, but not saying. And the living turn back to their day, their grieving and staying.

Wakil David Matthews (01:17:19.393)
Yeah.

Myra (01:17:19.398)
I found that the other day. I was flipping through the book and not the other day for my last appearance with you guys. And I was like, you know, I didn't know Wendell wrote something that yeah. So.

Wakil David Matthews (01:17:27.721)
Thank you. Very beautiful. think somebody else sent me something late and said, I don't know if it's too late or not, but it's never too late. Go ahead, Karen.

Karen (01:17:40.065)
That's very short. This is a Jisei, which is a Japanese death poem. I don't know if you're familiar, but they're poems that people write at the very moment that they're passing and a of awareness and extreme lucidity. 

Not even for a moment do things stand still. Witness color in the trees.

Wakil David Matthews (01:18:08.457)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (01:18:10.094)
Ha ha.

Wakil David Matthews (01:18:12.383)
Yeah, yeah, stay with that for a minute, right? Thank you. LiElla, Laura, did you find a poem you want to share?

LiElla Kelly (01:18:19.644)
I have a little something, not exactly a poem, but I was on that social media last night and I saw somebody speaking. His name is Alok Vaid Menon and he was telling the story of his grandfather's death. And there was just a couple of things that he said. 

He said, no one had ever told me that dying is the longest verb. Story, poem, and song so flippantly use the word died as if dying is something that just happens simply and immediately, not something that unfurls, that festers. 

And I just heard that and I thought that that is why we have death doulas because people don't know. They don't know how big this process is. And I just thought I'm like, that's that's talking about my job and the part that I'm supposed to be doing. So I loved it.

Myra (01:19:24.004)
Yeah!

Annalouiza (01:19:26.833)
Beautiful.

Wakil David Matthews (01:19:27.423)
Yeah, thank you. Very, very good. Very beautiful. All right, Laura, anything or carry on?

Laura Musselman (01:19:35.062)
Yeah, I've always got Mary Oliver pulled up. 

Wakil David Matthews (01:19:37.345)
Oh yeah, Mary Oliver, St. Mary.

Annalouiza (01:19:38.159)
Ours the Saint.

Laura Musselman (01:20:00.598)
She's, you know, she's my go-to. And I think I can't remember if this is the one that I read when I was on the podcast before, if it was something else, but this was kind of the one that spoke to me today. But it's Mary Oliver's, The World I Live In. 

I have refused to live locked in the orderly house of reasons and proofs. The world I live in and believe in is wider than that. And anyway, what's wrong with maybe? You wouldn't believe what once or twice I have seen. I'll just tell you this. Only if there are angels in your head will you ever possibly see one.

Wakil David Matthews (01:20:24.577)
Poetry is so great, so perfect. Thank you, everybody. It's been such a beautiful conversation, and I'm so glad we could do this. 

Annalouiza (01:20:33.893)
Yes. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Wakil David Matthews (01:20:54.027)
And like I said, I'm kind of glad that we get to put it out sooner than whatever it was on the schedule, because it's so important. really want people to be able to hear it. And we do have a premium version with some teachers talking about what it takes to become a doula.

So anybody who is listening who'd like to become a doula, you just have to subscribe, which is relatively inexpensive. And you can listen to that premium version as well. So thank you again, everybody.