Called to Accompany the Dying with Karen Carlisi

In this conversation, Karen Carlisi shares her profound journey from being an English language educator to becoming a death doula. She reflects on her early experiences with death, including the loss of loved ones, and how these moments shaped her understanding of life and death. Karen discusses her transition into the role of a death doula, its responsibilities, and the challenges she faces in educating others about this profession. She emphasizes the importance of community support and self-care in her work, highlighting her collaborative efforts with other doulas to bridge gaps in societal understanding of death and dying. Karen shares her insights on self-care, community support, and the fears surrounding end-of-life experiences. She discusses her personal practices for nurturing herself, the importance of community in activism, and her reflections on death and dying. We emphasize the need for planning, acceptance, and the profound journey of love and loss that accompanies life transitions.

Karen's Website

Pacific Death Doula Collaborative

International End of Life Doula Association (INELDA)

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:01.528)
Today we are speaking with Karen Carlesi. Karen comes to us from Doula work following 40 years as an English language educator, cross-cultural trainer, textbook author, writing coach, and meditation coach. She has taught and traveled around the world, especially in Poland, Japan, Italy, and Korea. She spent four years in meditating training with Shambhala, a secular meditation path created in the Vajrayana, Buddhist lineage, where she was also trained as a meditation instructor. She has studied and embraced multiple spiritual and cultural traditions and is prepared to honor the practices and rituals of those she serves.

Wakil (00:47.297)
Yeah, I'll have to ask you how to pronounce Vajrayana sometimes. Vajrayana. 

Annalouiza (00:50.506)
yeah. Is that, I, did I say how bad was I? Vajrayana. Okay.

Karen Carlisi (00:51.473)
Vajrayana.

Karen Carlisi (00:55.303)
it was okay. Vajrayana, yes.

Wakil (01:15.453)
It was close enough. So we also want to note that Karen completed her Doula training with INELDA, which is the International End of Life Doula Association, in 2020 and has been actively participating as a death Doula since November of 2023. She is a founding member of Pacific Death Doula Collaborative, a collective of death doulas sharing resources, education, and services. As a member of Threshold Choir, which we love and have interviewed before, 

Annalouiza (01:27.406)
Yes.

Wakil (01:43.569)
She provides comfort singing to the terminally ill and dying. As a published author and writing coach, she also specializes in memoir writing for those who are consciously nearing their closing chapters with a desire to tell their stories. Outside of her doula work, she enjoys hiking and swimming, time with her family, gardening, travel, and learning languages. Wonderful. Yeah, so good to have you.

Annalouiza (01:51.98)
Welcome.

Karen Carlisi (01:53.159)
Thank you, thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Wakil (01:57.607)
Yeah, sounds like a good list of activities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been trying to learn Spanish so I could speak with Aunalouiza better.

Karen Carlisi (02:00.783)
Yes, I've had a full life. Yeah.

Annalouiza (02:10.594)
Yes.

Karen Carlisi (02:11.527)
I’m working on my Spanish right now because I have a client who needs me for that although of recent before that I've just done a lot of a lot of Italian I've spent a lot of time in Italy and I have a heart connection to Italy so my Italian has been sort of first and foremost recently but now I'm into my Spanish again.

Wakil (02:20.518)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (02:28.686)
Spanish. Spanish club.

Wakil (02:29.863)
Yeah, yeah. There are some similarities I've noticed. But anyway, we'd like to start out by asking this question about when you first became aware of death.

Karen Carlisi (02:43.063)
Yeah, well, I had a few experiences that kind of led to my real awareness. First, you know, when I was seven years old, I was in a Catholic tradition, practicing for communion, had religious instruction. And there was this wonderful priest, Father Maloney, who I just loved. He was kind of a father figure. And when he died, they had a wake because it was Catholic tradition. And it was the first time I actually saw a dead body. 

And I remember standing at the side of the casket and I was just tall enough probably to look in and see the body. And I just remember being very sort of mystified at, well, that's Father Maloney, but he's not really there, but his body is here. And I just kind of wonder like what really happens there. So it was kind of my first questioning and kind of the mystery was there for me. 

And then when I was 16, I was working at my very first job at a senior facility. And I was sort of aware of the end of life in that job because all the people were in their 80s and 90s. And I would be giving them showers and walking with them up and down the hallways. They would tell me their stories. Some of them had dementia and they would repeat stories and I would just be there for them listening and asking questions and really holding space. So it was a feeling that it was a sense of gratitude sort of for having had the opportunity to share in these moments with them that might be their final moments. Some of them died while I was there.

But the most intense awareness came really when my grandmother died. She was very dear to me. My grandparents were Italian Sicilian and she was a musician. She played piano and I used to sit next to her on the piano and sing with her and watch her hands. 

She sang, she played by ear and she, her hands would sort of bounce up and down on the left hand side. And she really taught me the lesson of unconditional love. And when my grandfather died, she was 89. They had been together for 67 years. So, and she was already experiencing a little bit of dementia and health problems. She was declining herself and I could sense that she was gonna get lost. 

So I really just instinctually started companioning her and ushering her. And I would drive down from Los Angeles where I lived to San Diego where she was and take her out to lunch. And we would sit and I would just ask her questions about the past and all the family history that I knew, but also helping her to come to terms with some things that were a little difficult and just reflecting. And then I would start asking her if she had had dreams and asking her about my grandfather. 

And she became more and more conscious along the way, which was just this beautiful, amazing journey. And at the end, she was in hospice. And the night before she died, the whole family was there. And because we were told this is is getting close to the end. We had pizza, we were playing her music in the room, and it was just this beautiful farewell. And then the next morning, I was standing by the bedside when she was in the final moments and just caressing her and singing to her and soothing her and knowing even though she was unconscious that she was hearing me and feeling me.

And when she died in the moment of her death, her energy just arose from her body. And I felt it like in the room, in the space where I was standing just intensely. And then I felt it just dissolve and disappear. And it was just really, that was my real awareness of what death is and how it works. Yeah.

Wakil (07:05.929)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I can certainly feel an under, an empathizer. I don't know, that just really touches me. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. That's.

Annalouiza (07:14.978)
Yeah. Well, it's such a, it's beautiful. And you are so aware of that companion, companioning piece that, you know, you're sensitive to those moments, including when she left her body. And I think that's a gift. That's such a huge gift.

Karen Carlisi (07:33.027)
It was an amazing gift that stayed with me and really is part of my story, obviously, you know, just, yeah.

Annalouiza (07:35.938)
Mm-hmm. It is.

Wakil (07:38.192)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:41.366)
Well, and you had these really natural and beautiful interactions with death as a young person and then your grandmother later. But how has death impacted the story of who you are today now?

Karen Carlisi (07:56.721)
Well, I had a very big career. You read some of my history and I retired in 2018. And it was like a death for me because I identified with my personhood as who I was in my work life. It was really my life. So it was really a period of grieving and I felt like I was sitting here saying, you know, I was like looking at death, basically. 

Wakil (08:31.165)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Carlisi (08:49.703)
So I kind of went through that period of loss and grief, and then I picked myself up and said, yeah, this has got to stop. I've got to like live my life. And I started exploring and just exploring different things. And I learned more Italian you know, study language and traveled. And my husband and I went in 2020, the end of February of 2020. We left the United States for Italy for a six week extended stay in Puglia, Italy, Lecce, the capital of Puglia. And we got there and the numbers were rising as we went through our first two weeks. And on March 9th, all of Italy locked down.

Wakil (08:59.709)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (09:09.525)
my gosh.

Karen Carlisi (09:19.475)
And we were locked down in an apartment. We could not leave the apartment except to go to the pharmacy or the grocery store, which is right below our apartment. So we could see like how long the line was when people were waiting and taking tickets. We heard the ambulances coming regularly back and forth. Lecce, Italy itself, as you know, from the history of the pandemic has a very large demographic of seniors and Lecce itself is full of seniors. 
So we were just surrounded by death and the awareness of death and my husband was very fragile and we were terrified. And like everybody during the pandemic, my consciousness and awareness of sort of this collective consciousness of death really intensified. And I came back.

Wakil (10:07.261)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:09.347)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Carlisi (10:11.815)
And then in 2020, it was actually 2021, think it was New Year's Eve of 2000, going into 2021. As I do every year for New Year's Eve, I just sort of sit and I reflect on the past year. And I open my heart and I say, what is coming? You know, I'm open. 

Wakil (10:33.513)
Hmm.

Karen Carlisi (10:38.289)
And this year, particularly, I was really focused on who am I and what is my purpose in life and where am I going? And I really am ready now to receive whatever it is that I need to know and do so that I can be living fully because I'm not dead yet. And the next morning I opened my computer and there was an article about death doulas which I had never heard of before. I had no idea what a death doula was. 

And I was just blown away when I read this article and sort of completely inspired and said to myself, this is it. Like, I can't believe it, but this is it. Like, I was just, it was a calling, an inspiration. And I just felt like this is what I'm gonna do. And I signed up for INELDA that very day for training. Yeah, yeah.

Wakil (11:02.259)
Mm. Wow.

Annalouiza (11:29.89)
Wow.

That is a supreme cup of death and that has impacted this story. you have, yeah. And it was.

Wakil (11:40.329)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that sense of just sitting down and opening your heart and waiting. mean, that's a, yeah, just opening up to that. We all can use that. We can all use that. That's a good clue for everybody. Whatever method you might use to open your heart. But wow, what a great story. Thank you. Well, why don't you tell us a little more about what you're doing now, your current role, your current work.
Karen Carlisi (12:07.525)
So I am a death doula or what is called an end of life doula. I work with clients who are in the death space in some way. They could be, you know, just having received a terminal diagnosis and are conscious of their need to prepare and plan and sort of emotionally and psychologically prepare.

So I walk with them through that process and the journey. And I can also work with people who are in aftercare. I actually had a client that I worked with who had just, it's a couple who had just experienced a stillbirth. So I helped them with some research about different ways of approaching the funeral and the cremation and I help them to find a tree for a tree burial. 

And I also lead ceremony and create and lead ceremony. So I do that as part of a process of saying farewell for family, for loved ones. During vigil, which is the time when a client is in the last stages of life, I sit with a client. Soothing, comforting, I use essential oils. We might talk about just some concerns and anxieties that the client has and just listen. The key issue with being a death doula is deep active listening. 

So I'm mostly holding space and listening through all of these stages. And I could help with a legacy project if a client is interested in that. I can also, because I'm a writer, I do memoir writing as one of my offerings if anyone is interested. That's sort of a nutshell version. Also, I'm trained in MAID medical assistants in dying, so I'm also prepared to walk that journey for dying with dignity if a client makes that choice.

Wakil (14:25.725)
Wonderful, yeah, yeah. Sounds like a very well-rounded offering. yes, yeah. It's so wonderful that you've taken that on and that you've got, also that you've got that background of writing and the things that you can bring that your whole life kind of led to this place, it seems like.

Annalouiza (14:41.976)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Carlisi (14:43.543)
It really did. It's really quite amazing to me when I think about it actually. It's just like, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be. It's where it all led. Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:52.106)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what are the challenges that you find out in the world in this, your job as a helper?

Karen Carlisi (15:08.143)
Yeah, you know, the biggest challenge is that most people don't know what a death doula is. They've never heard of it. If I say the words, they're like, what, huh? What is that? And then trying to explain it is equally a challenge if they have no idea. And also if they don't want to talk about death. So I'm usually very sensitive to whether I even mention what I'm doing.
Annalouiza (15:35.704)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (15:35.977)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Carlisi (15:37.809)
But some people are open and I try to educate and just inform and talk a little bit about, you know, what's happening in the movement, because it is a movement now. But so that's the biggest challenge. And if people don't know what a death duel is, how do they know how to look for one if they need one or if they would be open to it. the challenge is educating,c ommunicating, bringing communities of practice of different practices and different entities like hospices and hospitals and cities, city councils, and all kinds of entities need to be educated and informed so that so that we have a place in the structure sort of of the death space. So that's a huge challenge. Yeah.

Wakil (16:29.073)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:32.366)
It's a very common one that we hear about too. It's like, just we're doing our death service and we're educating as we're moving along, right?

Karen Carlisi (16:40.933)
Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Wakil (16:40.967)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned so many important places, communities and spiritual communities probably, and hospice and doctors and nurses and all of these people that, you know, as usual, the key is getting the word to the right ears, you know, and that's the challenge. Great. Yeah, thank you. Very important challenges. so can you talk a little about what kind of maybe what supports you with those challenges, but also just what kind of things you fall back on when you're feeling overwhelmed or when it's just, you know, it's a hard day, you know, when you come home and you go,

Karen Carlisi (17:20.263)
I just rant at my husband.

Annalouiza (17:25.486)
you have a sounding board.

Karen Carlisi (17:31.527)
He's a very great source of support. So after I was trained, I was sort of flailing about and, you know, what's next? Like, how do I do this? And Joining Threshold Choir was a huge resource and support. I just felt so connected to just that space of being with people who were working in the in the space of helping people at the end of life, even though it was just singing, but it's not what I do as a doula, but it was just one step. And in the Threshold Choir chapter that I attend in Los Angeles, I met Myra and Phoenix, my two doula sisters, who are now, we worked together and created a collaborative. 

And it is the biggest source of support and resource that I now have. I think they're about at least 10 of us now, we are just about to launch our website. And we share all kinds of resources. We're constantly shooting each other information about workshops, about training. We meet regularly. We work together to create some S &Ps for the collaborative. 

And we're just really growing and developing sort of a system and a resource for each other and to go out, like we were just saying, to go out into the world and try to start bridging some of those gaps that exist in the societal connections that need to be there to support our work. 

Wakil (19:16.115)
Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (19:26.033)
We just met with an amazing individual, Dr. Arash, who is really spearheading some of that work. He met with us to talk about how we can foster some of those relationships. He wants to create a space for doulas in all hospices. He wants city councils to help with advertising and representation and education. And we're actually gonna be trying to connect with the LGBTQIA center in West Hollywood.

Wakil (19:52.561)
Mm-hmm. yeah.

Karen Carlisi (19:53.81)
… to try to help them because we're really interested in looking at underserved communities and how we can be of service to them. So this resource of our collaborative is, I have to say, is really the strongest support and system of connections that I have had myself personally. Other than that, I, you know, when we did the INELDA training, we were taught about self-care and I personally

Wakil (20:21.372)
Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (20:22.993)
I a very, I actually developed a little system of self care for myself, which I just returned from. I go every year in the fall to Rochester, New York, where I grew up. And I rent a house on the lake with picture windows overlooking the lake. And I take long walks and I just look at it as a period of nurturing and self care and reflection and meditation. 
And I'm working a little bit at the same time. I'm still teaching a class and I do some of these workshops and training. did actually did Chris Dingman does a sound bath grief transformation series that I attended while I was in Rochester this time, which was just so healing and wonderful. 

Wakil (21:08.478)
Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (21:21.391)
So I use that time. I have to get away. go on my own without my husband. It's just my alone time for six weeks. And it's very, very supportive and helpful to my practice.

Wakil (21:23.645)
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Annalouiza (21:25.932)
I do too. I love, love that. And I also really am just tickled that we interviewed Myra and Phoenix, right? 

Wakil (21:34.427)
And Phoenix, yeah.

Karen Carlisi (21:34.981)
And, and they said the exact same comment about being resourced, finding resources within the group that you all really help each other quite a bit, which we don't hear that often, especially, and I'm going to say this, like, this is an activist kind of group, right? We'reYes, yes, you did. I know, yeah.

Annalouiza (21:52.898)
trying to get out there educating, demonstrating modeling. And it takes a lot of effort. And the fact that you have all collaboratively found each other and support each other, that is so key to some of the big lifting that a lot of groups need to do. And it sounds like you did it.

Wakil (22:05.779)
Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (22:09.177)
Yeah, it's really amazing. It's really happening. It's an amazing group of individuals. Just wonderful.

Annalouiza (22:58.392)
So Karen, what threatens you about the end of life?

Karen Carlisi (23:03.909)
Well, even though I've had a really full life, I guess my biggest fear is just being cut off before I do enough or live enough or read enough or, you know, learn enough. It's just I'm so hungry for a lot. I have a very strong life instinct. So I think that that challenge of just letting go and being with what is, and that's sort of my fear is that I won't be able to do that. I won't be ready to do it. I'll be too greedy. 

Wakil (23:37.506)
Hahaha.

Karen Carlisi (23:50.599)
I'll have too many unfinished situations that I need to take care of. So all of that is probably my fear. And then I've always had this fear because I watched my great grandmother who was from Italy, very lonely and bitter at the end of her life. I just have always had this fear of dying alone in a nursing home without anyone with me to support me. So it's just kind of a nagging thing in the back of my head all the time. Yeah.

Wakil (24:05.139)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, makes sense.

Annalouiza (24:11.5)
Well, so do you mind if we talk about that? 

Karen Carlisi (24:14.31)
Not at all.

Annalouiza (24:14:56)
So that's a fear. And I presume that you have your advanced care directive plan. 

Karen Carlisi (24:21.187)
I do.

Annalouiza (24:21:21)
And so is that written in somewhere? Is that fear? that like knowing this fear, have you found the language to make a plan to support you, the just in case?

Karen Carlisi (24:37.315)
I don't have like a complicated detailed plan like that that says, you know, this is the kind of support that I want at that time. No, it's not.

Annalouiza (24:43.416)
Mm-hmm. And I only ask you that because yesterday we interviewed somebody else and I really appreciated like I have, you know, who can be in the space, who cannot be, you know, my sister had the music she wanted playing as she's passing and, know, knowing that we want something to happen, we can say, I would hope that we could have as, you know, community and singers and chaplains, like it's, it, we assume that, but we should write it in right. 

Karen Carlisi (25:24.563)
yeah, absolutely.

Wakil (25:24.745)
Yeah

Annalouiza (25:48.696)
Like, like, so, so that's the only reason it's so fresh in my mind from yesterday's conversation about really give it like this breath of life around, you know, giving permission to people to stay if they want for the entire time, you know, you, you want to stay, you stay. Cause I would, I would welcome the company. you know, and others may not feel the same way, but I love that. That is something that you've thought about and, just curious how we could frame that into your plan.

Karen Carlisi (25:53.817)
Yeah, I mean, I have written my vigil plan. We did it as part of our training in INELDA. But I think everybody needs to have one and go back and constantly revise it because it changes who you'd want there and who you don't want there. And yeah, this fear is more about I won't have any choice. I'll have to be in a nursing home or incapacitated that kind of thing. But for my vigil plan itself, like when I'm dying, wherever it is, I pretty much do have that. I have the music, the candles. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Wakil (26:21.746)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:28.808)
Yeah. Yeah, of course you do. The essential oils. I love it.

Wakil (26:28.841)
Good. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, we do. I do a class called Before You Go End of Life Planning, and it's a long two hour class of all the little details. And one of the things we go through is, you know, when what exactly, you know, as much as specific as possible, do you want to have happen? And one of the things the person yesterday said was not only who do you want you not only want to give people permission to be there, but you also want to give them permission to leave. 

Annalouiza (27:03.37)
If they, yeah, if they're uncomfortable. That was beautiful. Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (27:04.079)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that is beautiful. Yeah.

Wakil (27:26.269)
You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That was like, what a concept. 

And then we've also heard actually from Tiana when she talked about the LGBTQ people that that's where that kind of who do you not want to have there? Because some people may not honor your agency or your choice about your identity, and you probably don't want them to be there cause and trouble, right? 

So there's a lot of things people tend to just sort of, you we write up, but like you said, going back and looking at it again on a regular basis, you can start going, yeah, maybe that would be good to have a little more specifics about this is really how I want to be. If I am in a nursing home, I hope people, know, here's a list of people you should call and tell them to come visit, you know? Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (27:45.435)
Right, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (27:45.486)
Yeah, those long haul sitters. know? Because you know some of us are, you know, I have to say my dad is a really good sitter. He'll just hunker down with his newspaper and just sit. And you know, I've seen people get like fidgety and want to leave. I'm like, it's OK. It's OK. I love this.

Karen Carlisi (27:50.171)
That's right. Right.

Wakil (28:06.152)
Is there anything you wish we would have asked you about?

Karen Carlisi (28:30.215)
I think of anything. I mean, you guys really seem to have covered it. Maybe just how my background in meditation helps with my fear of death. Because just personally, I think it really informs my practice as a Doula and my attitudes towards death. And the Tibetan book of living dying was sort of an introduction to me of those end stages. I mean, they really nailed it in terms of understanding what happens with the body and the mind and the spirit. And I guess I have this story of, you know, another sort of lead into what I ended up doing, 

Wakil (29:16.83)
Yeah.

Karen Carlisi (29:20.319)
… which is that my very first day of meditation instruction way back in the early 90s. I sat on the cushion in my first training and the teacher was sort of very secular informed and Native American practices. And he said, you're going to take your posture and your seat is on the cushion and your back is straight and your heart is open and soft, so soft that if a butterfly landed on it it would hurt. And you're sitting there straight holding yourself erect like Sitting Bull on the top of the mountain who says, today is a good day to die.

Annalouiza (30:03.374)
Hmm.

Wakil (30:05.897)
Wow.

Karen Carlisi (30:07.203)
And I've carried that with me for all of these years. And I think it's how I deal with that fear that I have of not being able to let go and, you know, didn't do enough, all of that frenzy about staying alive and being in the world and not wanting to face death. So I make it a daily practice and it just really informs how I approach this work.

Wakil (30:34.087)
Yeah, yeah, good. That's a really, really good, excellent addition to what we talked about, about ways to support yourself. Yeah. And I mean, people have different practices, but we always like to ask that question because we hear so many good ideas, right? And so thank you for sharing that. I love that vision of sitting on a mountain top and saying, today is a good day to die. Also a good day to live.

Annalouiza (30:50.178)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Carlisi (30:57.573)
Yeah, exactly, because that's what happens. Right, a good day to be. Yes.

Annalouiza (30:57.836)
Yeah. A good day to be.

Wakil (31:02.919)
Yeah, that's right. Well, thank you. This has been great. You did send us a quote. Do you have that in front of you? 

Karen Carlisi (31:19.751)
Yes, so this is a poem by Heidi Prieb.

Wakil (31:25.415)
Okay, yeah.

Karen Carlisi (31:27.729)
To love someone long-term is to attend a thousand funerals of the people they used to be, the people they're too exhausted to be any longer, the people that don't recognize inside  themselves anymore, the people they grew out of, the people they never ended up growing into. We so badly want the people we love to get their spark back when it burns out, to become speedily found when they are lost.

But it is not our job to hold anyone accountable to be the people they used to be. It is our job to travel with them between each version and to honor what emerges along the way. Sometimes it will be an even more luminescent flame. Sometimes it will be a flicker that disappears and temporarily floods the room with a perfect and necessary darkness.

Wakil (32:25.629)
So good. So beautiful words. Thank you.

Annalouiza (32:31.438)
Yeah, so needed to hear. know. The people, they're too exhausted to be any longer. I can totally identify with that right now.

Wakil (32:40.425)
Right? Yeah. Beautifully said. Yeah, I love that too, that it's not our job to hold anyone accountable to be the people they used to be. It's our job to travel with them between each version and to honor what emerges along the way. Yes, that's so true.

Annalouiza (32:53.038)
Hmm.

Karen Carlisi (32:57.083)
Yeah. And I think that comes up a lot. That's why I chose this. It resonates so much with the dying, you know, what happens and what we expect from people and what we sort of want or demand. it's not in the cards. It's just like, let them be. Right.

Wakil (33:04.797)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:09.006)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (33:14.109)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, be with them where they are. Yeah. Well, great. That's very well. We're very, in. Let's see if I'll have to record. I have to edit this part out. 

Annalouiza (33:30.754)
Very poignant.

Wakil (33:44.187)
Yeah, Very poignant. Yes. And I really appreciate your work and your presence. And I'm just so happy to hear there's so many people doing this, people like yourself and the cooperatives that you talked about and all the other people we've met that are just really out there. Like you said, this movement of trying to normalize this conversation and get people to really realize how important it is to think about this stuff and to talk about it and to be in love with it.

Karen Carlisi (34:02.927)
Yeah, and the two of you, I am so grateful for you and what you're doing to contribute to that whole process, the project of educating and spreading the word and bringing out just these, you know, different people that are working that we would not know about otherwise. It's just really wonderful. I'm really grateful for you.

Wakil (34:20.007)
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So spread the word. Tell everybody, you know. All right. yes, I know. All right. I will turn this off. Thanks so much.

Annalouiza (34:22.094)
I'm so grateful for all these human beings in this in service to death and dying.
Yes.

Karen Carlisi (34:32.227)
Yes, that's right.

Annalouiza (34:36.866)
Death is coming, death is coming. Who are you gonna call? Who are you gonna call?