Texting With a Friend Who Has Died with Jay Deitcher

In this conversation, Jay Deitcher shares his personal experiences with death and grief, discussing how these experiences have shaped his life and work. He reflects on the loss of friends and family, the impact of death on his children, and how writing serves as a coping mechanism. Jay also introduces the unique practice of texting deceased loved ones as a way to process grief and maintain connections with them. 

We emphasize the importance of community support and the normalization of conversations around death. We explore the themes of grief, community, spirituality, and the challenges of coping with loss. And we discuss the importance of creating community through shared experiences of grief, the role of spiritual practices in coping, and the challenges faced in writing about personal loss. 

The conversation also delves into anticipatory grief, the fear of death, and the significance of acceptance and quality time with loved ones. Humor is highlighted as a coping mechanism, and the discussion touches on the unique challenges men face in expressing emotions related to grief.

“Mourning our parents can start before they die. Here’s how to cope with anticipatory grief.” (Washington Post)

"11 Helpful Ways to Deal With Grief." (Wondermind)

"Why Texting the Dead Helps Those Still Living." (Popsugar)

Jay’s website

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:02.828)
Welcome, welcome, welcome again and again. Today we are speaking with Jay Deicher. Jay is a freelance journalist, former social worker, and a dad to three kiddos. He loves writing and ranting about parenting, Judaism, comics, pro wrestling, addiction, and mental health. He received an MFA from Stony Brook University and has been published in Rolling Stone, The Washington Post, Esquire, Self, BBC, The Cut and Vox.

Wakil David Matthews (00:36.387)
Yeah, great. We reached out to him after reading an article a friend sent to us that was on PS or a PopSugar, which is an online health and wellness zine. It's part of the Vox Media Network. His article was called Why Texting the Dead Helps Those Who Are Still Living. And it really resonated with our goal to normalize the end-of-life conversations. That's what we're here for, right? We had interviewed Russ Young a while back, who puts up wind phones, which is a way to call your deceased loved ones. That episode with Russ went live on March 12th, so you can check it out. This seems like a natural extension of that idea. has written other articles about an end of life and loss and grief and a lot of other things he's going to tell us about. And we'll post links to the podcast notes and to his website, et cetera, on the podcast notes. So welcome, Jay. So great to have you. Yeah, yeah. So we like to always start kind of a way to get to know our guests a little bit and to ask about when you first became aware of death.

Jay Deitcher (01:39.218)
Thank you. Thanks for having me honored.

Annalouiza (01:41.23)
Welcome.

Jay Deitcher (01:55.174)
Yeah, my grandma died when I was a couple years old. I mean, I don't remember that that much. It's just like she disappeared from my life. A friend in my 20s, I started losing people. The people who I lost, I felt like I was there for. So I didn't have much guilt over. But one of them was a good friend of mine who was very mentally ill and he lost his life because of that. 

And I remember it shook like my faith a lot for like a year. Because I'm fairly spiritual, like, and connected with Judaism and everything. And I just started questioning, like, why I do certain things. I don't know why I thought that like spirituality could save David. But, that one hit me. And then I got past that. And I you know, he, he still with me and then recently when my friend Jeff, who I wrote that piece about, that shook me. Like I even got emotional when you were doing the intros. I don't know why, just because this is related to Jeff.

So yeah, that one shook me more than I expected, but I also didn't expect him to die. I'm in my forties now and like people start dying. 

Annalouiza (03:09.655)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (03:11.937)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (03:12.556)
Ha ha ha ha.

Wakil David Matthews (03:24.812)
Absolutely.

Jay Deitcher (03:33.49)
And like, even when it's like normal, it's still, it sucks. It sucks. Like I can be the most, I'm not gonna say my spirituality was shaken at all with Jeff, but it's just the hole in your life. yeah, it's just someone missing that was such a part of my life that still like it hits you.

Like even if you're doing it the best, even if you're killing it, grief. Like it still, it still hits you cause you love this, this person. Yeah. And he was like, he would have been 49. It's weird to think of him that way. Um, even though he wasn't his late 40s anyway, this was, he died a year and a half ago. And then, that one just hit me a lot. It still hits me. I still miss the guy.

Wakil David Matthews (03:55.341)
Sure. Yeah, Yeah, it's such a... I think the way you put it is so real that it's kind of a hole in your life when somebody that you really care about disappears, and they're still there. That hole is a part of you still, right? Their life and what they gave you is still a part of you. So, yeah.

Jay Deitcher (04:11.74)
They're still missing. I tried to replace like you try and I think I said that in the article, I tried to like find new friends because you need other people to lean on when you have this whole but like it's still I don't I don't have a Jeff. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (04:22.137)
Okay, yeah, right, exactly. absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:24.684)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it sounds like your grandmother died as young child and then you have this kind of monumental friend who passed away. Did that begin your kind of like your death impacted life? Like do you think about death more these days and is it impacting everything around you?

Jay Deitcher (04:54.106)
So my kids, have three kids and my son talks about death like crazy. And it's like, it's, it's like, so I have, I was like, am I going to fit in on this podcast so much? Cause I talk about it so jokingly, right? But I talk about it so much that my son's like, daddy's dead. 

Wakil David Matthews (05:00.161)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (05:14.893)
haha

Jay Deitcher (05:21.778)
Like he'll just say that. I'll be like, and then I said to my wife, I said, why does he think it's so funny to joke about death all the time? And she said, it's because all you talk about is how dead Jeff is. So it's been the way I cope with Jeff's death is like, it's in that piece. I’m like, I texted him an invite to his party and then I billed him for it. 

Annalouiza (05:26.07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (05:26.411)
jeez.

Jay Deitcher (05:50.918)
Like that kind of stuff. It does make it easier to cope with. And Jeff and me joked like that, that that's how I deal with it. But it's definitely throughout my life. now my kids, death is a thing that my kids talk about daily just because it's now them trying to understand it. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (05:54.765)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (05:55.466)
Mm-hmm. Jay, I really love that for you, though. think that there is a, we underserve our children by not being open about how death has impacted our lives and how death is actually a part of life and how death can be really beautiful. And, you know, you value different aspects of being alive in the finite of this, of it, because there is death. Right. So I am so thrilled that your kids are talking about death daily.

Wakil David Matthews (06:22.593)
Yeah, yeah. Annalouiza also has kids who have that as a subject matter. Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:24.861)
All the time.

Jay Deitcher (06:29.85)
I'm sure. My parents are getting older. So it sucks. it's also, they're gonna die. Like people die. You say it's a part of life and it makes us appreciate this more, but it still sucks. Like I will always go back to, death still sucks.

Wakil David Matthews (06:43.5)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's that. Well, I mean, you guys are much younger than me. I'm twice your age or so, maybe, maybe not twice, but and and of course my in my cohort, if you will, the people my age, a lot of people are leaving, you know, and and so again, that's sort of part of the reason I think Annalouiza and I started talking about this is just how do we be more natural around us? How do we be more accepting? But also I love, know, just yeah, it does suck. It totally sucks when our dear friends are not here anymore. We miss them and we feel them. I still feel most of them, you know. 

So yeah, thanks. That's such a great way to put it. So why don't you tell us more about the article and more of your other work that you're doing? Just, you I noticed you sent us links to three articles, but I know you've also said you do some other work and some other interests. Tell us more about that. Tell us more about what you're filling your life with and the work you're doing.

Jay Deitcher (07:43.654)
Yeah. So during COVID, I worried a lot about my parents dying. So one of them is about, I forgot the word for it, but grief before someone leaves you. And that's another thing. then you can get, I was very controlling, like not accepting things. 

Wakil David Matthews (07:54.647)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (08:09.67)
So I wrote about that. Writing about these things helps me. It's how I process things. And I get to talk, like, I don't know if you do it with the podcast you brought up that like when I'm in my forties, I'm seeing friends pass away, which is scary. And it's, it's a new life phase. So I started writing more about it and it's probably you get, it gets you to talk to cool people. 

Wakil David Matthews (08:20.289)
Yeah, it really does. Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (08:37.554)
So that's how I, why I write. So they helped me process it. And then after Jeff's died, I wrote two more pieces on it. And one was a year before Jeff died, a friend of ours died who I wasn't really hit, like it didn't affect me that much. And I was talking to him about how it didn't affect me that much that he died. And then Jeff said, when I die, you're going to cry. And I was like, F you, Jeff, man, what the hell? How are you going to throw that weighty comment on me while I'm trying to go on the treadmill and talk to you about wrestling? And then I'm like, I'm not going to give you a pity answer right now. And it was just like, not on my mind. And then Jeff just died on me.

Annalouiza (08:46.375)
Hahaha

Wakil David Matthews (09:06.677)
wow.

Jay Deitcher (09:06.778)
… a year later out of nowhere. And then that night I went, it was wrestling night and I would text him every night during wrestling. And I don't know how much you know about wrestling, but it's on every freaking night. So it's Jeff and me texting all night. And it helps me get through my kid stuff. Like I'm doing kid stuff, I'm texting. So it's like my bedtime routine with the kids and Jeff's not on the other line. 

And I just broke down and I think I was on the kitchen floor chopping something up or making dinner for my kids with tears running down my face just with the fact I couldn't text Jeff and like he wasn't there. And then it was like, F you, Jeff, you called it. And so I started texting him and I definitely was, it didn't like soothe the pain texting him that night the whole time. And it wasn't like I thought he was texting me back or anything, but it gave me, it was the hole, like I didn't have anyone to text with. So I text them and then it became sort of like I was, and this is what the PopSugar piece was about. I was sort of scolding him at times for how unhealthy he was. I think he existed mainly on pork and shellfish.

Annalouiza (10:21.523)
Was it a heart attack that took him out?

Jay Deitcher (10:24.434)
I don't even know what took him out. He was unhealthy. In many ways, another thing that, Wakil, think, did I say your name right? I'm sorry. 

Wakil David Matthews (10:35.681)
Yeah, you got it. Yep.

Jay Deitcher (10:54.308)
Yeah. One thing that happens when you start watching your peers die is it's also a reflection of you. So then it was also, and that's scary. We were talking about the finiteness of life. So in many ways, Jeff, I think was a reflection of a lot of our friends of like what could have happened because he wasn't married and I don't want to say marriage saved my life but it did get me to like it was sort of like f you Jeff you left us behind like I know if I die I'm gonna leave a lot of people behind and they do make me sort of take care of myself a little more and there was an idea of like how dare you leave us behind Jeff it wasn't I didn't have guilt over me being a survivor I know I didn't or anything but there was definitely anger at him and that came out in the text messages so I just texted him everything and then now I still do text them not as much I wish I texted them more and just like joking just because you'd find it funny that I'm texting a dead guy

Wakil David Matthews (11:26.812)
That right
Annalouiza (11:40.352)
Yeah, you know, I really love this as a practice though. You know, people tend to clean out our loved ones closets pretty quick, you know, get rid of anything that's that shows a sign that they're still physically in there in our fields, right? And so it brought to mind that years and years ago, there was this homeless man who actually had a phone and I would find him sometimes in different places, pick him up, take him on the bus. And when Jack died, I didn't even know. I went looking for him because he really mattered to me. But I still have Jack's phone number in my phone list. And when I'm looking through my J's, I'll come up on Jack McKnight, and I'm like, Jack, I miss you. So I'm not texting him, but I do really love how I'm still interacting with the spirit of Jack McKnight. So I love that you're still texting your friend.

Wakil David Matthews (12:24.93)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:39.842)
I think it's marvelous.

Wakil David Matthews (12:39.905)
Right? Yeah, yeah. And I like the recognition of the anger, you know, really, you know, being upfront about that, because yeah, certainly pisses you off sometimes when somebody, you know, how dare you, how dare you do that to me, right? So yeah, it's very, very important to acknowledge, I think, for people and let people know. I mean, that's the reason we do this to kind of make sure everybody knows that all these things are normal.

Jay Deitcher (12:54.534)
Yeah!

Annalouiza (12:56.152)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (12:59.173)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:08.386)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (13:08.523)
It's normal to be pissed off. It's normal to retreat. It's normal to think nothing matters anymore. It's all these different normal things that people feel like isn't, you know, shouldn't be, or they try to hide or they try to be, you know, I'm okay now, which, you know, just doesn't, isn't the way it works. So thank you for sharing that. That's so important. All right. Where are we here?

Jay Deitcher (13:28.69)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:33.026)
Well, know, like you, I was going to ask just, I know it's a, we have this, the, that's other question, but I want to ask, what do you do to feel supported during these times? Like when it's really tender and like, can see right now that this is, you know, a really poignant moment for you. Like, how do you make sure that you're still like held?

Jay Deitcher (13:56.892)
So, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I have 19 years sober and Jeff was, I'm not using his last name, he was a part of that community also. So he helped a lot more people than I did. When I say you left us all behind, it was like, I don't do much man to help other people. Jeff helped everyone. So I was like, what are all these people gonna do now?

Wakil David Matthews (14:14.551)
Hmm.

Jay Deitcher (14:23.548)
So I did, it did give me the opportunity to sort of reach out to people that were also friends with Jeff and mourn with them. And I think I've gotten a lot closer with some of those people. And there are some people that still would really benefit from Jeff's help that I'm not helping. He was a real mensch, but when you're a mensch, got to take care of yourself.

Annalouiza (14:36.462)
Good.

Wakil David Matthews (14:40.599)
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so important.

Annalouiza (14:45.494)
Yeah. yeah. love that you've your his his power on earth has been to create more community for you too.

Jay Deitcher (14:54.8)
Yeah, I think about that a lot. And we talk, I talk about Jeff a lot. Like I do, I allow myself to, and I have other friends who want to talk about Jeff a lot. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (15:00.131)
Mm.

Annalouiza (15:06.114)
Yeah, that's wonderful. Anyhow, I'm going to take a moment here. You have to scrub this part, but I need to leave, But blessings on your journey. May Jeff and the angels surround you and fill you with peace and righteous anger at, know, how dare he leave? I'll see you soon. Ciao.

Wakil David Matthews (15:21.923)
Hmm. Exactly. All right. See you later, Annalouiza. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate that too. I think, you know, part of that question that we like to kind of hear is, do you have practices that you do or, I mean, part of your Jewish faith and prayers or anything else that has helped you kind of cope with the times when you just feel overwhelmed by this or by anything.

Jay Deitcher (15:50.064)
I do very much a practicing Jew. I don't know how much I believe to be honest, 

Wakil David Matthews (15:54.679)
Mm-hmm. Well.
Yeah, yeah.

Jay Deitcher (16:19.972)
But I do do things just in case a lot and I like the community. I do love Judaism. I like the Jewish culture. I like my community. do have a lot of, in my journal, like I feel very, I did a lot of work over the years. I burned out of social work and I found a job I really love where I feel like I do good in the world. And so I think I have a lot of self-worth right now. 

Wakil David Matthews (16:29.665)
Yeah, good.

Wakil David Matthews (16:40.149)
Exactly.

Jay Deitcher (16:48.306)
So like I still feel like, yeah, Jeff's gone, I miss him. But it's also inspired pieces like the Pop Sugar piece, which will hopefully help other people. Like that's what I do is like, when you had me on the show, it's like, I'm just a normal dude, graving on the page that's what it comes down to. I'm a schmucky dude grieving on the page going through all the emotions and maybe that can maybe someone else can pick up on that because we all go through it. So I guess religious spiritual practices that's that's all intertwined I guess Including in my writing. Thank God with my self-worth like I I think of that as connected to my religion and my spirituality also.

Wakil David Matthews (16:57.548)
Absolutely.
Mm hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Great. Let's see. Tell us more. Tell us about what challenges have you run up against as you're dealing with this or as you're maybe even in your work. I mean, probably getting things published is a challenge, but it looks like you're doing a good job. I was going to say, and you might want to talk more about some of the articles, the one about anticipatory grief that you talked about. Yeah. Anything else that you want to share about that? And then just anything that's come up is like this is hard. This has been hard to go through. This has been a block in the way. you know, this guy back here, Ganesh, likes to move our things out of the way. He also likes to put things in the way for us.

Jay Deitcher (17:57.062)
Right. So I think the other day, this isn't writing affiliated, but it was just a way that I think probably Jeff's death swooped in and made me awkward with people. You prompted me to think about this. can't remember what you said. no, it was your partner. She brought it up about the guy disappearing that, and her not knowing about it.

Wakil David Matthews (18:22.712)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (18:24.944)
Well, I have a friend that I, is one of my best friends, but we don't always talk all the time. I just love her and we've been friends for about 19 years and we have no friends in common. To be honest, they're pretty antisocial and I kept calling and they kept not picking up, and then, which is weird for them, and then I realized they could die without me knowing. 

Wakil David Matthews (18:46.423)
Yeah, yeah.

Jay Deitcher (18:54.32)
And it was like a really scary thought and it made me want to somehow protect against that ever happening. And so they finally, I started driving by their house, which is weird. And then, and then I caught, they finally picked up the phone the other day and I did the horrible thing of saying, I thought you could have been dead. Like that's not a way to start a conversation with someone. And I haven't like apologized for it. And I don't think you're allowed to be weird with friends every now and then.

Wakil David Matthews (19:19.755)
Yeah, that's right.

Jay Deitcher (19:21.394)
But I definitely gave her a weird phone call and she got out the phone pretty quick after I told her I thought she could have been dead.

Wakil David Matthews (19:27.235)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that comes across as a, you know, like, like Annalouiza was saying, those kind of things are challenging to think about people, especially that we don't get a chance to be in touch with very often. Yeah, I just had somebody reach out to me who I haven't heard from in quite a while, too. And, you know, I I wondered the same thing. I like, you know, how come I don't hear from you? What happened to you? Where'd you go? You know? So, yeah.

Jay Deitcher (19:39.527)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (19:53.266)
All right.

Wakil David Matthews (19:56.099)
That's definitely a challenge. Is there anything about the end of life that's frightened you, that scares you about your own end of life now that you've...

Jay Deitcher (20:04.146)
The whole thing scares the crap out of me. I mean, you can't do anything about it. So that's the anticipatory grief thing, 

Wakil David Matthews (20:25.751)
Yeah. Wow.

Jay Deitcher (20:32.146)
… is I was trying to control my parents' behaviors when it was around COVID. And I was very paranoid and very protective. We didn't leave the house for years. And I wanted them to not leave their house for years. My dad's almost 90 or he's in his 90s. I think he's almost 90. And so I just had to let it go. Like I was just driving them nuts and pushing them away. And I mean, I could sit here. My wife broke her ankle the other day and it screwed up. 

Wakil David Matthews (20:51.971)
Sure.

Wakil David Matthews (21:00.055)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (21:01.602)
Like it threw our whole life off because she could not leave her bed for three weeks. And just that is like that quick. Someone could die. Like it could have been just these little things like you could worry about my dad dying like people always talk about that like you can worry about that guy dying but any of us could go at any moment I try it's terrifying it's just it's yeah

Wakil David Matthews (21:12.535)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any anticipate? I didn't get to read that yet. I want to read it. The anticipatory grief article. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you know, what came up as you were writing that? As far as.

Jay Deitcher (21:26.61)
I think by then, normally when I'm writing about it, I've processed it a little. I try not to bleed out on the page when I write, because then you could just end up with these really emotional pieces with no ending, because you're still in it. 

Wakil David Matthews (21:34.689)
Hahaha.

Wakil David Matthews (21:41.751)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Deitcher (21:54.918)
So I think I had processed a good amount of that. So what came up when I was doing it, I think that's me saying I'm letting it go and realizing other people were going through that during.
 covid, but it can happen a lot, think, with a lot of us. I mean, I want my kids, I think about my grandma who died when I was like two, and I still have memories of her that are very positive, but not many. so I think I want to hold onto my parents as long as possible and to give my kids the time with them, parents love grandparents. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (21:57.347)
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, mean, our family is going through that. My wife has a terminal diagnosis that we had last year, right? But she's doing really well. And this is like well past what we thought it would be. So there's there's this sense of there's anticipatory grief, but there's also this kind of liminal space of like right now, we don't know. And in fact, that's always true, right? We don't know. It could all turn around at any time. But it's even more present for us at this point, you know. 

Jay Deitcher (22:43.57)
Wow.

Wakil David Matthews (22:44.565)
So my kids and I have these long conversations, you know, like, how are you doing with this? And we're like, we're all just sort of walking along going, well, thanks God, thank God for one more day. 

Jay Deitcher (22:53.649)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (23:14.499)
Right. And so, so that can kind of be the, at least for us, that's kind of been the way we processed it. You know, we just be thankful for every day. And, I guess in a way that should be every day of every, of everybody's life. And, you know, there's a, there's a Dalai Lama quote that's, every day, think as you wake up today I'm fortunate to have woken up. I'm alive, I have a precious human life and I'm not gonna waste it. so I think of that and it's sort of how I go through my day and I think my kids are dealing with it that way as well. So they're all grown, so they're doing their own lives, but it's kind of a, it is as you said, that sense of just, yeah, this is gonna happen. 

Jay Deitcher (23:17.095)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (23:44.279)
And as your parents get older and yeah, as it becomes more real to have that kind of anticipatory grief can be overwhelming at times as well. But then I think what's important and what you mentioned is just not only letting it go, but also acknowledging it. Just being with it, saying, yeah, this hurts. This feels like shit. And I'm not looking forward to that day, But also then to say, OK, I let go of it and let it be what it is. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Jay Deitcher (24:12.828)
Yeah, but how do you be present? Like your situation, I don't know how I would handle that.

Wakil David Matthews (24:18.817)
Yeah, well, it's is it's it's acceptance. One thing, you know, and really looking at the world right now, you know, there's a lot I'm having a lot of practice at acceptance. 

Jay Deitcher (24:32.402)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (24:39.239)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (24:48.809)
You know, the world is as crazy as it is, and there's only so much I can do about it. You know, mostly what I can do is love my beloved, you know, loving and caring of the people in my in my immediate vicinity, do my best to help my community. And just make sure every day is as good as it can be. It sounds like what you're doing with your parents, too, making sure you have as much quality time and your kids have as much quality time as possible. So I think that's kind of the answer to that. Well, thank you. This has been really interesting. I want to think if there's anything else. Yeah, is there anything you wish we had asked about it? Anything else you'd like to share with us before we?

Jay Deitcher (25:17.102)
I'll tell you a funny story about Jeff. So, the last time...

The last time I talked to him was actually, so one thing is since I've been sober 19 years, most people who have died, like I've been there for them. And it's the same with Jeff. Like I didn't have any guilt like saying like, oh, I wish I was there. 

Wakil David Matthews (25:46.434)
Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (25:51.364)
But the funny thing about Jeff is I talked to him the night before him, hours before he died actually, which, you I liked that. that's pretty cool that I might've been one of the last people to text him and be texting with him and I know he's having a good time. 

But a few days beforehand, he called me, right? It was on Thanksgiving. And I mentioned I was on the phone with another friend, right? When we were texting. And so he called me and then I didn't pick up. And Jeff, I would often say like, I'm not talking to you right now. I don't have time to talk to you. I have 15 kids jumping on me right now. And I did that. I said, Jeff, know it's Thanksgiving. I'm not talking to you right now. He said, but you picked up for Javi. I said the guy's name.

Wakil David Matthews (26:17.195)
Hahaha.

Jay Deitcher (26:17.924)
I said, and I said, yeah, but I having needed my help, I don't think you need my help right now. Do you need my help right now? And Jeff said, no. And then I said, good, then I'm not talking to you, bye. And I have no guilt from that re-interaction. Like I find that hilarious that a few times days beforehand, I could have talked with Jeff on the phone and I just, couldn't have done it. Like people have, have guilt at the end. Like, I wish I took that phone call. I don't, I had no time to talk to Jeff that day.

Wakil David Matthews (26:29.271)
Hahaha. Yeah. Good. That's such a great attitude. 

Jay Deitcher (26:46.928)
Like, yeah, it's funny. I find that funny.

Wakil David Matthews (27:12.483)
Yeah, that is. Thank you. That's a great story. Very important. think a good note, a good note for listeners, you know, that at least to pay attention to that guilt, whatever that guilt is, that shame and acknowledge it. But then think about, know, did I really do any harm? Did I, you know, did I really cause any pain or did I really do anything I wish I hadn't? Maybe you did. Maybe you need to face that too. 

But in this case, I love the fact that this was just the way he related with him. And it was a perfect example, actually a perfect way to continue to relate to him right up to when he's gone. 

Jay Deitcher (27:22.962)
That's right, it's true, we were bickering all the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil (27:23.9)
And even afterward, you're still doing it, which is really sweet, really great. Well, I really appreciate that. Thanks so much for taking the time to share with us, share your story. And it's been really...

Jay Deitcher (27:39.73)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Wakil David Matthews (27:40.749)
Really sweet, really enlightening in many ways. Do you want to read the quote that you gave us from Larry David or you want me to read it?

Jay Deitcher (27:48.068)
You can read it. I don't have it on me.

Wakil David Matthews (27:49.982)
Okay. Okay. All right. Yeah. So thank you. This is a really funny quote, too. One thing I want to just say, get from this whole thing is this wonderful sense of humor that you have. And, you know, the sense of kind of sense of the absurd maybe, you know, that you carry along with this acknowledgement of your grief and knowledge of your of what you need to deal with. So thank you so much for that as well. So yeah, we'll just finish up with this quote from Larry David talking about his friend Richard Lewis. He said, Richard Lewis, he says: “He was, he was the sweetest guy. It's so hard to believe he's not here. I talked to him because I feel like he's watching me and I tell them to, you know, hey, leave me alone. Keep away. I got stuff to do.”

Right. Thank you, Larry. David. That's just exactly what you were talking about. Even now. Right. Even now, maybe you can say, okay, Jeff, I don't really don't have time for this, but I'll get back to you. Yeah.

Jay Deitcher (29:02.298)
Right. Right.

Jay Deitcher (29:07.666)
I wanted to show that quote also. I look up to Mel Brooks and, what's the 2000 year old man, partner of his, Carl Reiner. And they ate dinner every night until Carl died and they watched Jeopardy together. And I wanted to show male friendship with that quote also. And just so, like, we can get hit by stuff. Like, it's not just our wives and kids dying. It really hurts.

Wakil David Matthews (29:25.495)
yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. our you know, we're going to actually the next interview we're doing is with a person who's talking about male, male grief, male emotions. And so thank you so much for bringing that out too that's big, big, big important part of this. And that not only do people in general have trouble talking about death and dying, but especially in our culture, men tend to have a lot of trouble with showing emotion and with being present for that kind of for this kind of difficult thing. 

Jay Deitcher (29:58.705)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (30:01.251)
I've been kind of taking a informal poll of every time I'm online in a group of people, spiritual group or a webinar, I just went to a webinar about death and dying yesterday. I just check and it's never more than 20% men showing up for these things. Yeah. And usually like 10%. So I think that's an indicator right there of what you're talking about. So thank you for being one of those men who can not only feel that feel, but talk about it and share it and remind us that it's all a good thing. So thank you. 

Jay Deitcher (30:35.58)
Could be one of those men that can talk about these things. Yeah, I like emotions. I like emotional men. I like being someone who can feel these things.

Wakil David Matthews (30:44.939)
Yeah, that's right. They can sit on the floor crying, right?

Yeah, My kids always give me trouble about crying at commercials and stuff. All right. Well, thanks again, Jay. I really appreciate you.

Jay Deitcher (30:50.93)
Thank you for your time. Nice. Awesome. Yes. Take care. Bye. Thank you.