A Fiduciary As End of Life Advocate and Resource with Sara Ecklein

In this episode, Rev Wakil David and Annalouiza engage with Sarah Ecklein, a fiduciary and end-of-life advocate, discussing the importance of legacy planning and the emotional aspects surrounding death. Sarah shares her personal experiences with death, the role of a fiduciary, and the challenges families face in estate planning. The discussion emphasizes the need for proactive planning, the significance of difficult conversations, and the emotional connections that underpin legacy work. Sarah also highlights the importance of creating meaningful connections and leaving behind a legacy rooted in love and intention.

Website: trustandhonor.co

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-ecklein/

Free Workbook: www.trustandhonor.co/workbook

Legacy of Love Podcast

Book - What to do when I'm Gone. A Mother's Wisdom to her daughter

Transcript

Rev Wakil David (00:18.789)
Welcome, friends. On today's episode, we are speaking with Sarah Eklang. Sarah is passionate about guiding individuals and families through life's most difficult transitions. As the founder of Trust and Honor, a mindful fiduciary agency based in Northern California. She serves as a trusted advocate for clients navigating end of life decisions and planning meaningful legacies. Sarah is also the host of the Legacy of Love podcast, which we will definitely link to, where she offers a holistic perspective on redefining the meaning of legacy.

Annalouiza (01:11.586)
Sarah notes that her mission is deeply personal. After witnessing a loved one's final three days of life, she gained a profound understanding of the importance of end-of-life care and legacy planning. With over a decade of expertise in the private fiduciary profession, Sarah brings a wealth of knowledge to help seniors and families navigate the complex family dynamics, end-of-life care, and trust and estate administration.

Sarah is dedicated to helping her clients build legacies rooted in love and intention. Through her work and family life, Sarah continually shapes her own legacy of love, building connections, sharing values, and inspiring others to do the same. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and daughter. Welcome, Sarah.

Sara Ecklein (02:02.344)
thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you both.

Rev Wakil David (02:05.517)
Yeah, yeah, we're looking forward to hearing more about what you do. So we like to kind of set the stage a little bit by learning more about our guests and finding out when you first became aware of death.

Annalouiza (02:06.132)
So I delighted to meet you.

Sara Ecklein (02:22.794)
well, that's a good question. So, kind of within my family, my parents raised me with, there was kind of a lot of, I think, fear around death and not talking about death. And as a child, I always kind of had a natural inclination to lean towards it. So I remember my animals passing away. I even would dissect my goldfish.

Rev Wakil David (02:25.541)
Thanks.

Rev Wakil David (02:52.069)
He

Sara Ecklein (02:52.27)
as a kid just really interested. yeah, there were a few moments like I had two dogs that passed away and my parents chose to not tell me until after the fact. that, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's actually been one of those things that I've wondered if because of those experiences and how they chose to...

Annalouiza (03:06.968)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (03:18.348)
you know, introduce death and kind of quote unquote protect me from death if that, you know, only, you know, piqued my curiosity for death and dying because it's very much a part of the work that I do. But when I was when I was five years old, we were visiting my so my father's mother and my grandmother in Minnesota and

and she was dying. She was on hospice. And my father is the middle child. He is one of three boys. And the boys weren't really gathering around their mother, supporting her during that transition, who was my mom. So the plan was that she would stay with her during this time. She had battled many years of colon cancer, so it wasn't kind of unexpected.

Rev Wakil David (04:02.979)
Hello.

Sara Ecklein (04:16.662)
and I would go back home with my dad, but I ended up getting chickenpox. So yeah, so I ended up being with her, her final three days of life. you know, and while that wasn't the plan at all, and there with her at her funeral, my mother's, she journals a lot and writes a lot, but I found

Rev Wakil David (04:22.019)
Sara Ecklein (04:45.76)
a journal that she was writing about me. I was talking to my friends, next door neighbors across the street when I was, again, only five years old. And what I was sharing with them was that, when you die, you die with your eyes open. And, you know, I think as a five-year-old, meant that, you know, physically, like my grandmother, her eyes must have been open. But I feel like that's such like a beautiful metaphor of

Rev Wakil David (05:06.262)
Hahaha.

Sara Ecklein (05:15.36)
and of also what stood out for me. And it's been so much of kind of my path of why I feel really called to supporting people through their end of life transition.

Rev Wakil David (05:26.317)
Wow, nice.

Annalouiza (05:27.468)
You die with your eyes open. That's so perceptive, right, as a five-year-old. So this story, how did it just translate into a metaphor for the rest of your life? How has death impacted your life story?

Sara Ecklein (05:29.79)
No.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (05:34.671)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (05:48.236)
Well, it's funny, that's like, you know, that was my first experience with death when I was five. And, you know, years go by and my plan was never to be serving in this area. definitely had a windy road to find the career and the work that I do now. But again, it was being present with a loved one's final days of life is where

you know, for me it was really kind of this spiritual mystical experience where, you know, the ego dissolves and what are you left with, the present moment and being present to that unconditional loving presence that we're all connected to. You know, whether you call that God, whatever you call it, it doesn't matter to me, but.

Rev Wakil David (06:35.685)
Hehehe.

Sara Ecklein (06:41.422)
That's what death has always been for me. And I always say it's kind of the ultimate truth serum. Most of us are, get caught up in the busyness of the day and the chatter of the mind and, kind of mismatch priorities, I think. And yeah, so that's at 24, I was, it was my partner at the times aunt and she was dying of brain cancer.

Annalouiza (06:47.404)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (06:47.578)
haha

Sara Ecklein (07:11.01)
So similar, we ended up driving up and being with her her last few days of life. And that's when I knew I was like, I quit my job. I actually left that relationship and I thought I would be a hospice nurse. So I started going back down the path of going to school and I actually quickly realized that hospice and nursing wasn't.

Rev Wakil David (07:22.405)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (07:22.913)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (07:30.612)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (07:39.128)
quite the right fit for me. And eventually my path led me to working for a professional fiduciary, you know, and really the rest is, is kind of history. describe it as like this head and heart alignment. A lot of my, you know, a lot of my natural interests and, you know, and also this kind of sense of calling of

Rev Wakil David (07:51.685)
you

Sara Ecklein (08:09.102)
serving people through these difficult life transitions. I mean, that's absolutely the work that I do. What I say is, you know, at the end of the day, because I can work with clients in a lot of different ways. And we'll get into that later of kind of defining the work that I do. But, you know, ultimately, what I see is I carry out people's final wishes. So there's a lot of, you know,

Annalouiza (08:33.056)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (08:33.893)
Perfect.

Sara Ecklein (08:36.91)
You know, of course there's the calling for me to do that work, but there's just so much responsibility, so much trust that my clients put in me. And, you know, it's absolutely just an honor to do the work that I do.

Rev Wakil David (08:50.923)
Yeah, yeah, perfect. Yeah, that's perfect segue. Tell us more about, you know, more specific things that you work on and what the word fiduciary means to you or means for people who are looking into this and want to know how that would work.

Annalouiza (08:52.556)
Wow.

Sara Ecklein (09:06.974)
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm based in California and California is one of two states that has licensing called professional fiduciaries. So, the work that we do, it, really is state specific because it's kind of governed by probate law. but there's absolutely people that do work like me across the country. It's just going to

depend on what the licensing and the requirements are. But professional fiduciary, I describe as an umbrella term. And under that umbrella, I can act in different roles. I think of them as like, I can be wearing different hats. A lot of times I'll be wearing multiple hats for a client. So I can act as someone's trustee, as someone's executor. I can act as a conservator or guardian.

In California, we use the word conservator to distinguish someone over the age of 18, but in essence, it's guardianship. And I can also act as someone's agent for both finance and healthcare. So that is the work I do. And I also work with clients in the planning phase.

Rev Wakil David (10:15.941)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (10:33.349)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (10:33.484)
I would say, you know, I'm a younger fiduciary. So a lot of people love me because I'm not nearing retirement. So yeah, I'll be around a while. So that's where I love building relationships proactively and I can be named in successor roles in people's estate planning documents. And that's my preferred way of serving clients because we build the relationship long before services are needed.

Annalouiza (10:41.205)
You're gonna be around a while. Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (11:01.35)
and really like my, my approach and my thought is, you know, if I don't know you as a client, I I'm not going to be able to do, you know, my job is great. as if we're, you know, building that relationship under a crisis, right. So, also reasons why I love podcasting because reaching people upstream before there's, know, a health crisis or before it's too late.

Annalouiza (11:18.07)
Right.

Annalouiza (11:29.376)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (11:31.086)
It really is a night and day difference. So the more that we can kind of tend to this area, you know, I think the better that not only our lives are left off, but also that next generation.

Annalouiza (11:34.23)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (11:44.771)
Yeah, yeah, we think about it as a gift to our beloveds to have as much of this taken care of as we can at a time. So, yeah, I'm so glad.

Annalouiza (11:44.952)
you

Sara Ecklein (11:50.786)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:51.136)
Yeah. Well, and I'm also kind of curious too. So, I mean, you, you wear a lot of different hats, that are, if I'm, I'm thinking like, if there's a, cause I know a lot of older folks who are single, no long lasting relationship with extended family, maybe isolated from community. Right? So I could see where you could easily fit in, but does

Sara Ecklein (12:15.277)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:19.298)
How do you play a role when people have families who are not OK with this kind of thing happening? I've also just recently come across somebody whose son is not interested in having their father plan these things. how do you navigate these little? What kind of clients do you help, I guess?

Sara Ecklein (12:28.59)
you

Sara Ecklein (12:35.778)
interesting.

Sara Ecklein (12:41.606)
Yeah, that's interesting. I haven't heard that scenario. I think I would be curious and having a conversation of why. You know, and I do think that having difficult conversations is a really key piece in in this proactive planning. You know, what gets me curious about not only the work that I do, but also now in my own podcasting journey.

Annalouiza (12:50.602)
Of course, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David (12:50.693)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:58.678)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (13:11.374)
that I keep going back to the drawing board is why people don't plan. mean, only one in three people in the United States actually have an estate plan. And that's really where you're like, OK, this is the one, right? Guarantee in life, we're all going to die. So why aren't we tending to this area? And what I see is the estate plan

Annalouiza (13:22.102)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:29.569)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:35.266)
Right.

Sara Ecklein (13:40.032)
It's kind of like this perfect storm, right? It requires us to look at our own mortality, which, you know, the denial of death, mean, that I think that that is hardwired into our brain, where we think we're gonna live forever and always think that there's gonna be a tomorrow. There's also, you know, the money and assets, which,

Annalouiza (13:46.102)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (13:55.653)
This is it.

Sara Ecklein (14:08.48)
again, so much, I think most people still have a lot of discomfort and shame around talking about that. And then, you know, and then of course, kind of the point that you bring up is, kind of the relationships. You know, and, you know, as I quote my therapist regularly on this, where she says, you know, it's not really a question of if a family is dysfunctional, it's it's more of to what degree, you know,

Annalouiza (14:15.852)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (14:28.709)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David (14:36.793)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:37.846)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (14:39.544)
So again, reasons why I love podcasting because I think the more that we kind of normalize this, that this is really every family. And I think that the other piece is that families have really changed a lot. People are living longer. People are having less children or no children.

Annalouiza (14:47.81)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (15:07.032)
people are getting divorced and remarried, blended families. I mean, I think that that's just as much of the norm. So all of this brings kind of a level of not only complexity to the estate plan, but kind of a discomfort of having these conversations. And I think that that's also really where having

Annalouiza (15:09.783)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (15:34.242)
you know, a neutral party, having a professional, maybe not in all the roles, but maybe that role of holding the purse strings, the money and distributing funds the way that the family has set up, that can really bring a lot of peace to a family.

Annalouiza (15:43.416)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:47.862)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:51.596)
Yeah. I'm also noticing that there's an assumption that a lot of families have, I would assume that families think that they need to have a certain amount of assets in order for this to actually be worth their money to pay to plan for this, because most people I talked to are like, I don't have anything. Like what's it matter? Like, I don't even know if I'll have, you know, a service because my kids may not be able to afford.

Rev Wakil David (16:12.005)
Susan.

Sara Ecklein (16:13.742)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:18.412)
my service. you know, there's this huge assumption that people have assets and then on the other side, families assume that they're what they have is not worthy of, of asset planning.

Sara Ecklein (16:30.646)
I think that's such an important piece because that's so much of where, you know, I feel like there's this misconception of what the estate plan is. And, you know, people, when they hear the word like trust, it's like they automatically assume like, that you must be really wealthy. And, and that's just simply not true. Obviously, this is going to depend on on each state. You know, in California, if you own a house,

Annalouiza (16:33.656)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (16:47.19)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David (16:54.725)
you

Sara Ecklein (16:59.146)
it most likely is going to make sense for you to set up a trust. not always, but for the most part, yes. the other piece is that the estate plan, while it, it does decide, you know, and says, you know, who our heirs or beneficiaries would be, there's also a lot of documents like our advanced healthcare directive as a piece, both the power of attorney for finance.

Rev Wakil David (17:23.205)
Right.

Sara Ecklein (17:27.738)
And, you know, the advanced healthcare directive, that's for anyone. So if you're lacking capacity, you know, who would be that person that could pay your bills, just keep things afloat, file your tax returns. You know, everybody needs that. And really, if you don't have a lot, I mean, maybe it is just as simple as a will and you don't need, you don't need to have, you know, a trust set up.

Annalouiza (17:32.226)
Right.

Rev Wakil David (17:32.324)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (17:45.061)
Okay.

Annalouiza (17:53.378)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (17:57.838)
But again, that's where it's going to really be partnering and finding the right professionals, I think, to advise.

Annalouiza (18:01.74)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I'm going to just say, like, I love the work that you do. And I think it is all critical for so many of our brothers and sisters across this country, you know, especially right now with the wealth, just kind of moving away from middle class America and, know, the cost of death, like just going through the roof. And, but it makes me also think about, when I've, think like 10 years ago, I might've reached out to my bank and to my, you know, we're just

Sara Ecklein (18:15.96)
Yeah.

now.

Annalouiza (18:33.878)
random people because that's when I was like in hospice a lot and just thinking about this and I wanted to do a will and it was like $5,000 to do a will and I was just like, yeah. And I was like, you know what? I'll write it on a piece of paper. Like I don't, I didn't know. Right. And so I feel like, again, the work that we do in trying to educate people about the myriad of, of, of choices they may have in their state. It's like, it's so important because like we just interviewed somebody in Louisiana where

Sara Ecklein (18:42.282)
Really?

Rev Wakil David (18:46.414)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (19:02.25)
Even taking the body from the hospital is such a huge cost for so many families that there's just, are death is, is it goes ungracefully to the family because a lack of funds, like point blank across the board. Like, you know, even if, even if like I were to go out again, try now and see like, they would probably say, it's $7,000 for you as to like do your thing. And I'm like, I would not be able to afford that. So.

Sara Ecklein (19:06.796)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (19:14.383)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (19:18.861)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (19:19.278)
you

Sara Ecklein (19:31.278)
That's crazy, really? I'm surprised that that's what you were, because we, I mean, just to give you kind of a ballpark, usually the number that I hear, and again, I'm based in Silicon Valley. So, you know, I would say, you know, it's pretty expensive, people are gonna charge more. But what I hear is like kind of the starting place is usually around like 2000. And it can go up from there with complexity, but

Rev Wakil David (19:45.411)
haha

Annalouiza (19:49.868)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:57.389)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Sara Ecklein (20:00.638)
usually, you know, that complexity piece is more so, you know, it kind of goes hand in hand with having more complex assets. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:04.109)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:09.368)
Yeah, yeah. But here in Denver, 10 years ago, when somebody said it was going to be $2,000, it actually was $3,000. I've talked to my father about this. And I was like, it's just expensive. But it would be great to have a listing of affordable fiduciary help, or planning.

Rev Wakil David (20:10.179)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (20:21.165)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (20:21.482)
Yeah, yeah, I know and that's hard.

Sara Ecklein (20:32.306)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, and estate planning attorneys. That's interesting. That's a good point. I'll add that to my list of passion projects, creating a directory. Yeah, I'm really not a proponent of DIYing this. And I think it's because downstream, I see where things don't go well.

Rev Wakil David (20:34.543)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:38.69)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (20:42.117)
All right.

Annalouiza (20:43.639)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:50.304)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:55.544)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (20:56.106)
That's kind of the other camp of when someone starts working with me is not only in that kind of the ideal picture that I painted, right? Proactively building a relationship before services are needed. But I also start working with clients that either they didn't plan or they're now like kind of down to the wire and they maybe received a diagnosis and they're like,

Annalouiza (21:20.568)
you

Sara Ecklein (21:23.842)
figuring it out and it's a scramble. And then I also, the really heartbreaking cases are the ones where, you know, it's bad actors where either there's some level of abuse, you know, done, a lot of times it's financial elder abuse and kind of the wrong people were in those roles and needing to be removed. That's where the court will remove them and often appoint a professional.

Annalouiza (21:26.145)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:37.74)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:49.302)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:53.196)
Wow.

Sara Ecklein (21:53.326)
So, yeah, so I think in those scenarios when you see where you're like, this could be a lot of money, because once things go through the courts, there's more attorney's fees, it just becomes so costly. But you point out a good point. mean.

Rev Wakil David (21:54.191)
Yeah,

Annalouiza (22:08.332)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (22:12.537)
Yeah, I've thought that there's a organization here in Washington called People's Memorial. And what they've done is created a cooperative between a bunch of funeral homes to try to lower the costs of funeral services. And they offer natural funeral services, et cetera. I thought that that model would be a good one for people who are doing agency or fiduciary or planning of any kind, just to have a group of people who create a

Annalouiza (22:36.248)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (22:42.597)
cooperative that help lower the costs or even have some kind of a fund created for people who just simply don't have any money, period. They just want to have some basic set of planning done. So I love that concept. think that kind of goes back to what we're left with when all of the federal programs fall away, is taking care of our own communities and supporting each other. So I love that idea.

Annalouiza (22:52.44)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (23:12.133)
One thing that came up in one of my classes that I'd like to ask you about, maybe you probably at least know it for California, but it kind of surprised me is that somebody said in their state anyway, powers of attorney expire on death. Yeah. And so how does one guard against that thing? If you set up a power of attorney for somebody to handle your your things, your financial or your healthcare things.

Sara Ecklein (23:27.864)
Yeah, that is true.

Rev Wakil David (23:41.893)
I guess you'd use some other method to get a healthcare agent or healthcare producer, but.

Sara Ecklein (23:48.278)
Yeah, I mean, this is also where and I think one of the points of why I'm so much of a proponent of, know, if you can't afford it, hiring the right professional of finding that estate planning attorney in your local area, because understanding all these pieces and how they move together and not just, know, know, DIY in it yourself is a big piece. So yes.

when once you pass your power of attorney documents are no longer in effect. I will say the only like kind of like asterisk there is that your healthcare decision maker is responsible for kind of deciding your kind of pre-knee or I guess it wouldn't be pre-knee but you your cremation, your burial.

Rev Wakil David (24:42.309)
Hmm.

Sara Ecklein (24:43.874)
But that's a piece where, so in California, that's where a trust is in effect during both your life and then after your death. But yes, the power of attorney documents are only in effect because it's about those documents dictate you as a person. And that's kind of the distinguishing factor there.

Rev Wakil David (25:04.067)
Right.

Rev Wakil David (25:08.985)
Yeah, thank you. That's something I'm going to try to reference, at least make as clear as I can anyway, in the class. There's a whole big section of the class about documentation in this work that you're talking about, all these different things. And of course, the first thing I say, and the thing I say many times is I'm not an attorney, and you should talk to an attorney or a planner or somebody who knows, who's legally, professionally capable of this.

Annalouiza (25:14.711)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (25:30.25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:36.204)
Yeah, and this just reminds me too of another guest we shared some time with about, you we talk about the advanced care directive person who's going to kind of accompany that person through the time of death. And as soon as we have a descendant now, right? Like this is no longer a person that's a descendant, then that person doesn't actually have any say in what happens to the body.

And that was a thing that they've had in Louisiana that you no longer have, but that body actually still needs somebody to advocate for it and do the right work needed to honor the person and the family as well. So that was something that Louisiana does as well, that she's like, it's really hard for folks.

Sara Ecklein (26:08.47)
interesting.

Sara Ecklein (26:17.934)
Rev Wakil David (26:24.911)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (26:24.918)
Yeah, so that's where it's different because in California that still would be your healthcare decision maker. Wow, that's interesting. That's too bad. So there's no kind of directive. I wonder if they have like a different document or there must be some planning around it.

Annalouiza (26:31.448)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David (26:34.607)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:34.679)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:40.12)
Do you remember what she said about that, Wachil? Like, I think that she just worried because that's when people don't have the right to actually make choices for the body. And a lot of time, the descendants wind up kind of in these limboes where people can't afford to get them out of wherever they've been sent to. And that wasn't the choice the family made.

Rev Wakil David (26:57.533)
Yeah. And also, you the other thing that comes up in that is kind of leads into the question about challenges. It's the next question we would ask is cross state, you know, or somebody who's in a different state and how do you deal with that? What I remember from our conversation with her was that she basically said, you know, you just have to use different kind of documentation. I can't remember what it was, but.

And I think that's basically the lesson that we can give our audience here is to really check in your state, find out who and possibly maybe we can find some sites or maybe you have some Sarah where they could look up who in their state would have this information, would be able to tell them. Usually contacting a state attorney or an elder attorney, they will usually at least tell you.

Annalouiza (27:27.01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:40.749)
Right.

Sara Ecklein (27:46.411)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (27:50.981)
you know, the basics, of course, they're gonna start charging you the minute you start asking for anything else. But just to get the basic idea of, you know, what is right, what do I need to actually have in place.

Annalouiza (27:54.2)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:00.67)
Right. I also wonder if of hospital social workers who probably see a lot of folks asking these questions at the time of death in hospitals. And so they might actually have, you know, numbers and contacts for people who could help them build the document that they need in order for their their descendants wishes to be honored.

Rev Wakil David (28:24.377)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (28:28.726)
Yeah, so we are at the challenges. So Sarah, tell. What are your biggest challenges that you face in this line of work?

Sara Ecklein (28:30.702)
So many challenges.

Sara Ecklein (28:39.694)
Ugh, well...

Annalouiza (28:41.688)
Sigh.

Rev Wakil David (28:41.829)
Besides all the ones we just talked about.

Sara Ecklein (28:46.232)
I know, there's so much. You know, I would say, let's first start off with like in the planning, right? What I see that a lot of times, a lot of families, when they're approaching this work, there's really a lot of this misconception about what the estate plan is, and we talked about this before. knowing that these documents are planning not just for after our death, but in capacity.

Annalouiza (28:46.264)
Sara Ecklein (29:15.598)
That's a huge kind of piece. That's a lot of why I love podcasting, why I decided to launch my podcast because I was finding over the years, you know, consultation after consultation with clients and these are the people that are kind of the one third that are ahead of most that actually have a plan that have already started working with an estate planning attorney. They would come to me and really be asking,

Annalouiza (29:33.878)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (29:43.426)
you know, and really only directing me about after their death and this is our wants and wishes. And when I would bring up incapacity, it was like, no one asked me that. I didn't think about that. It's like, okay, well, this is a big piece. So, you know, one of my big kind of points and premise is like, if we're...

Annalouiza (29:53.302)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (29:53.359)
haha

Sara Ecklein (30:08.91)
planning, but we don't really even understand the function of an estate plan. How are we going to really set up a great plan? So I think the more that we're really intentional, and again, let's first approach this of seeing this, this is one of the greatest gifts we could give ourselves, our loved ones.

the power and the ripple that that can have not only for our life, but for future generations. It that's powerful. I think most of us know those worst case scenarios of, you know, families feuding in court and fighting over, you know, the assets or where, you know, mom or dad need to live during their final years and families really being torn apart. that's really where and

Annalouiza (30:44.578)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (31:00.482)
what inspired the title of my podcast, The Legacy of Love, because this has the power to transform ourselves and the whole family system, if we're really connected to the power that it has. But most of us, and again, speaking to the people that are planning, we're approaching this more from this...

of energy and space of let's just check it off the box of things to do, having a lot of anxiety, a lot of worry, a lot of fear. And then if we're not really facing our own mortality or those difficult conversations, we might just meet with the attorney, execute the documents, and shove these documents in the drawer and never really think about it again.

Annalouiza (31:53.698)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (31:55.702)
And that's where, you know, as a professional, I would anticipate that those plans are probably not going to go well because these are living documents. We need to be tending to this area of our life on an ongoing basis. And it, and as much as I hate to kind of move the bar up for listeners, I really feel that the estate plan is where this is where kind of the journey begins for us.

Rev Wakil David (32:03.471)
Thanks

Annalouiza (32:06.188)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (32:10.404)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:22.412)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (32:23.29)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (32:25.174)
So that's me kind of, and speaking to kind of the challenges with planning. In the administrative side, and again, most of the times I'm stepping in the role of trustee and also as someone's agent, both healthcare and finance. Family, not knowing the plan.

Annalouiza (32:44.888)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (32:55.094)
I think the relationships, this is the hardest part of the work. The administrative piece, the financial piece, sure it's a lot of time, but honestly that's, I'm kind of, I call myself a recovering perfectionist type A, like give me a system, I can execute that. That's kind of clear and easy.

Rev Wakil David (32:59.577)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (33:14.437)
You

Sara Ecklein (33:23.454)
for me speaking, but it's the relationships, the family dynamics. That is the hardest piece. And so again, going back to kind of what I was talking about before with, okay, what does that mean? What can we do to kind of maybe preheat the oven in a better way? So we're not only having these conversations like, okay, either, you know.

Rev Wakil David (33:31.503)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:44.012)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (33:44.12)
You

Sara Ecklein (33:52.224)
mom's dying or there's been a huge health crisis and now we need to figure it out, there's going to be just so many more emotions. And then you add that layer of not really knowing. So that's like, I don't do conservatorships now, but I have in the past. And that's when the courts get involved. It's always a court process, but

Annalouiza (33:57.49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:09.068)
Right.

Sara Ecklein (34:21.922)
Basically, the courts are deciding who would be making this person's financial or healthcare decisions and you're working alongside someone that lacks capacity. Often they don't have documents, but that's not always the case. anyways, when you're kind of in that role, working with someone that you haven't built that relationship with and kind of guessing, right? And now this person lacks capacity, it's...

Annalouiza (34:28.856)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (34:53.03)
It's a harder job to do.

Rev Wakil David (34:55.269)
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and I think one of the things we talk about often in the class we do in there and and on this podcast very often to is see the huge importance of Continuing as like you said as a living document continuing to make sure everybody that you're Asking to help or anybody who's going to have some kind of skin in the game if you will That you talk to them on a regular basis and say here's what my

Annalouiza (34:56.107)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:09.9)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (35:14.734)
No.

Annalouiza (35:15.158)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:20.76)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (35:22.937)
wants and needs are, here's where you can find that information. especially if you've set up an agent of some sort, hopefully somebody younger than you, if you're my age, are you still there? Are you still willing to do this? Do you still feel comfortable doing this? So yeah, that's so important. Such a great thing to emphasize here.

Annalouiza (35:32.97)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara Ecklein (35:34.069)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:38.456)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:44.32)
It is. And as, as you say that, what Kayla was also thinking about this because, know, I was just thinking I need to do my, I think I've done a, advanced care directive plan now since like 2020, 2019, like I've been making them and both my kids know everything that's on it. And in the interim, I've changed my, my health proxies too, because people have left the state.

people's values kind of have shifted as well. can tell. And I was like, I'm not comfortable with that. So if just now I was thinking, oh, maybe I should try to find somebody I could pay like such as yourself to be my advanced care person. Um, but then I, I'm going to say like, would they actually know me well enough to make the choices without like having a relationship with me, right? Like somebody who knows me, who has sat with me, who knows the values I hold about living and dying.

may feel, I feel, I believe that they would be able to, you know, move into that role and guide my health at the end of, you know, I'm unable to incapacitate it and still be respected by my kids too, because they're going to be watching. They're going to be like, you better like do well by my mama or there's going to be trouble for you. Right. And so, I mean, we talk about the people I've chosen to and, know, and, like, I have two people, one of them, I have clearly stated.

Rev Wakil David (36:53.665)
You

Sara Ecklein (36:55.865)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:05.866)
you will be in charge of kind of shepherding my children. If I'm in an accident, I'm in the hospital. You are in charge of shepherding my children and being, you know, listening to the decisions that are being called to be made and keeping them informed. And then there's another person I've gotten that you will be the, and it's a man because I don't trust that, you know, the industrial medical complex will treat a woman with respect and listen. Right. So I have a man and I'm like, your role is literally to like,

Sara Ecklein (37:31.843)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:35.522)
Defend our family, defend my family and the choices that we have on my piece of paper. And so now I'm like, gosh, my friend has just left the state now and I need to find some more people. And I was like, maybe I should get someone like a Sarah. But then there's an aversion for me because I'm like, they wouldn't know me. They wouldn't know me well enough.

Rev Wakil David (37:45.507)
haha

Sara Ecklein (37:53.442)
Well, you know, I think a few thoughts there. So there is, it's called the National Guardianship Association, NGA. And I can share that with you. So you can also share it on the show notes for listeners, you know, outside of California. But you can search for professionals in your local state that do similar work. And going through the interview process, I think

Annalouiza (38:00.962)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (38:16.854)
Hmm, that's good.

Sara Ecklein (38:22.518)
So, you you'll kind of get a sense of like, is this someone that feels right? And I always say that like with people interviewing me, I'm like, these decisions are just so personal, and you should feel really good about it. Obviously, you know, the clients that choose to work with me, they feel good about that. But that's so much of, you know, why I think that, you know, again, putting our affairs in order proactively.

Annalouiza (38:28.801)
Right.

Annalouiza (38:34.571)
Yes.

Right.

Annalouiza (38:49.964)
before.

Sara Ecklein (38:51.374)
And that's for me, my approach of, you know, I spend a lot of time with clients building that relationship. And then we, you know, my process, I have an annual check-in with clients, kind of continuing that relationship and just making sure nothing's changed in their life. It's also a time for me to communicate, you know, are there changes in my life and in my practice? Because things are gonna be evolving over the years.

Annalouiza (38:58.85)
cultivating a relationship.

Annalouiza (39:04.823)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (39:13.004)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right. Well, and just I'm to put in a PSA for our listeners because I really appreciate, Sarah, that there's an interview process and that you encourage, you know, the people who are your clients or potential clients to really feel good about being connected to you. Right. This is like both a physical, spiritual, emotional relationship as well as like a financial piece. Right. So you've got to have like

Sara Ecklein (39:38.883)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:43.192)
a congruency with all of these pieces. And I'm going to say this now too, like, you know, it's better to plan so you're not choosing some, you know, some, some last minute call to a funeral director, some last minute call to, you know, some kind of service because you haven't made the plan and now you're stuck. You've, you, you feel like you're stuck having to choose whomever shows up at your door without taking, having the time to actually like have a give and take of, know,

relationship building with this person who's like, this is important, heavy lifting that you're going to trust people to be doing for you. Right. So please people do pre-planning call Sarah, call anybody, call somebody, write it down.

Rev Wakil David (40:16.559)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (40:22.149)
Call somebody.

Sara Ecklein (40:26.434)
Well, you know, that's also where with this work, it amazes me. Sometimes people will just name people they've never met. And I have gotten those calls of like, you're named, you know, and sometimes I'm named back up to someone else, but I'm like, I don't know who this person is. And honestly, depending on my...

Annalouiza (40:33.847)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:45.729)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (40:50.062)
current capacity, I'm like, I feel zero sense of like loyalty of saying yes to this, like I might refer it out to another professional because, you know, I haven't, you know, built that relationship. But yeah, sometimes people do that where they don't interview, maybe their attorney just makes referrals and they're like, sure, name these people like they're professionals, they'll do it. I know we obviously approach things similar. Or, yeah, we put a lot of thought and care in it and really

Annalouiza (40:57.943)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:01.514)
Right.

Annalouiza (41:15.128)
Right, right.

Sara Ecklein (41:19.448)
But I think when you also do this work, you get all of those pieces that go into it, right? Like it's so, know, yes, it's like the administrative piece and the financial piece, but it's so much more of like the emotional spiritual, feeling good and feeling like you're being held in this vulnerable transition.

Annalouiza (41:24.631)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:42.218)
so vulnerable and it's vulnerable for you as you know or one as the person who's dying, a person who's you know transitioning and it's also very vulnerable for you know this random face that may appear for your family who is in this grief process and if you don't know that professional well enough

Sara Ecklein (41:50.424)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:03.296)
You know, there could be trauma that is caused by that person as they're experiencing great loss and grief, right? So please, again, listeners, like do the work so that, you know, the trauma doesn't ripple out into the future.

Rev Wakil David (42:14.275)
You

Yeah, I love that. I really love and I think this is part of the way we really wanted to have you come on that the whole your whole practice is based on love that it's really based on you know a compassionate and caring and loving legacy that you're leaving and creating and have any relationship that you're creating. We also like to find out if you if anything frightens you yourself. Do you have any?

Sara Ecklein (42:17.108)
Yeah, that resonates, yeah.

Annalouiza (42:28.376)
Beautiful,

Rev Wakil David (42:45.549)
fears about the end of life.

Sara Ecklein (42:49.006)
At this point, I think my great, I have a two year old. So yeah, becoming a mother, you know, it's changed a lot for me. It's, I mean, it's a lot of what's only added more kind of fuel to the passion and the fire of the love that I do and also the meaning and importance of this work.

Rev Wakil David (42:55.333)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (43:03.479)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (43:03.555)
Yeah, yeah.

Sara Ecklein (43:19.074)
But I think with my daughter, it's like if I died now today, that would be hard. I don't like, know, a two year old, it's like, gosh, did I do everything? Did I instill everything? When she's older, think I probably, hopefully I'll feel a little better about setting her up. But that piece, and that's a lot of where.

Annalouiza (43:27.34)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (43:31.64)
Mm.

Annalouiza (43:39.02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (43:46.018)
you know, and why I also launched a podcast was it was like, my gosh, becoming a mother, this work hits me so differently. I, you know, again, type A fiercely independent, very organized, know, caring for others always. But feeling vulnerable is, I would say was not kind of a...

Annalouiza (43:54.848)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (44:11.926)
something that I sat with on a regular basis and then just going through pregnancy and birth and then after I'm like, my gosh, I can't do this alone. Which is, know, ultimately that's the truth, right? But I was definitely operating in a different way before motherhood. Yeah. So that vulnerability piece and I think I'm able to serve so much better, right?

Rev Wakil David (44:24.43)
Ha ha.

Annalouiza (44:34.264)
Hmm.

Sara Ecklein (44:41.998)
being connected to that. Yeah, I'm being connected to that. yeah, I think that that's, you know, kind of my big, like, did I do everything to set her up? And that's where I'm beginning to write, having just like a practice of writing letters to her of like, who I am and kind of my wishes, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (44:42.604)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (45:07.07)
Mm-hmm. I love that. I love that. And I'm going to tell you, I have a 16-year-old and a 19-year-old, and they're still very much my babies. And I'm always like, you know, but I tell them both. like, I go to sleep at night, and I'm like, you know, if you take my kids, they're your kids. Actually, if you take the kids, they're your kids. And if you take me, they're fine. They're going to be fine.

Rev Wakil David (45:07.307)
sweet. Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (45:15.627)
Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (45:28.684)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David (45:29.949)
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea you've written about. saw it on your site, the legacy letters, and we've heard that referred to before, these ideas that we... And another thing that should be updated, know, and kept current, but just to write letters to our beloveds and something that they can... That'll be in that same file with everything else, that not only Leo and all that stuff, but something that says, you know, here's an...

Annalouiza (45:51.096)
Yeah, I love that.

Rev Wakil David (45:57.829)
what my life was like. Here's what I wish somebody would have told me when I was a teenager or whatever and how I feel about you. At Love Letters, one person, yeah, one of our interviewees called it, or one of our guests called it Love Letters, Love Letters to Your Beloveds. I love that. I think that's a huge piece that often gets kind of lost in this whole planning idea, you know, because we're all doing the practical stuff. But how about that, just that legacy, that connection, that love connection? It's so important.

Annalouiza (46:00.47)
Hmm.

Sara Ecklein (46:02.05)
Right.

Annalouiza (46:11.842)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (46:17.846)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (46:18.602)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (46:24.47)
And the practical stuff is also a love letter. You know, it's also... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (46:27.269)
It's true. Yeah.

Sara Ecklein (46:27.598)
Yeah, it's it's it's hand in hand. It's not, you know, it's not one or the other. But I think the best way that we can really plan it's it's by really acknowledging like, you know, it's not going to just show up on documents. And trust me, I've administered trusts and you can tell with the kids that weren't really loved or parented.

Rev Wakil David (46:31.151)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (46:52.492)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (46:52.826)
And there's really dysfunctional, really dysfunctional family dynamics and also looking to the trust to kind of save and solve everything. And that's where I think so much of this does have to do with just like our identity of who we're choosing to be and how we're living, how we're showing up in the daily practice.

Rev Wakil David (46:53.765)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (47:03.5)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (47:03.663)
Right, wow.

Annalouiza (47:11.084)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (47:16.462)
That's one of my messages that I say regularly. Our legacy is not just what we leave, it's really how we live.

Rev Wakil David (47:19.898)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (47:24.131)
Yeah, so beautiful. Yeah. OK. This is great. Wonderful conversation.

Annalouiza (47:30.358)
Yes, and Sarah, how do you keep yourself resourced? Laugh, giggle.

Sara Ecklein (47:30.958)
Likewise.

Rev Wakil David (47:37.311)
Hahaha.

Sara Ecklein (47:40.398)
My husband had surgery last week, which I've been like, I am really under resourced. Creating a village, knowing you can't do it alone. Also my daily meditation practice is absolutely like the foundation, yeah, yeah, of how I can show up and serve and be the mother, be the wife.

Annalouiza (47:47.512)
Hmm

Rev Wakil David (47:47.865)
Haha.

Annalouiza (47:59.64)
A bedrock.

Sara Ecklein (48:07.894)
you know, be that fiduciary, also just be that loving presence, right? You know, and not all days are perfect. Like, I did not meditate this morning.

Annalouiza (48:09.888)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (48:17.637)
Yeah, we had a two minute meditation.

Annalouiza (48:19.318)
Yes, you did. You did when when when what Kiela before we started. You did. So you did.

Sara Ecklein (48:23.31)
Oh yeah, you're right. Thank you. I did. Thank you. Thank you for that reminder. See? Okay. I love that. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, we did. Oh, that was nice. Yeah. So that's, that's how, you know, and yeah, the, self-care piece kind of it's, I don't know, for me, it's kind of always weaving in and out of.

Annalouiza (48:27.722)
Yes, yes.

Annalouiza (48:36.32)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (48:44.023)
Hmm.

Sara Ecklein (48:49.644)
serving others, you know, kind of being outward focus and then the inner focus and it's just as important. And, you know, especially as professionals, I don't find that we talk about it enough.

Annalouiza (49:00.504)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David (49:00.741)
Right, exactly. Yeah, I think it's huge and people don't, you're right. In every work I ever did, I always set up a meditation practice and had people come join us, know, lunchtime for meditation. And it's true, it's not something that we in our culture really value. And yet it makes such a difference in how we show up in our presence. Yeah, thank you. Is there anything that we haven't asked you about that you wish we would have talked about that you'd like to share?

Annalouiza (49:17.014)
Mm-mm.

Annalouiza (49:20.673)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (49:29.538)
I think we covered it. I will share that I do have a free workbook for listeners. If this work resonates, you're wanting to, wherever you're at in your planning journey, whether you already have an estate plan in place, whether you've maybe, I'm assuming you've probably thought about it if you're listening and tuning into this podcast.

but it's on my website. I know that you guys will link that in the show notes, but it's really a workbook for people to kind of get clear and intentional about what they wanna leave, kind of beyond the estate plan. So starting with that intention, I really think that that has the ability to just transform our life, our legacy, how we're remembered.

Rev Wakil David (50:09.903)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (50:23.065)
Yeah, I looked at that actually and I really appreciate the way it's done. It is sort of just a kind of a beginning touchstone is really start thinking about all these things and start writing them down and then you can take that as a way to kind of get going on or kind of as a guideline for yourself. So I really love that you do that. Thank you for sharing that with folks and definitely will be linked. Yeah. Well, that's yeah. Thank you so much. It's been a really wonderful conversation. Really appreciate you and the work you're doing and

Annalouiza (50:33.656)
Hmm.

Sara Ecklein (50:40.927)
Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Annalouiza (50:50.272)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David (50:53.069)
And just the example that you give to people, as you said, this ripples, not only ripples by doing this for yourself, but it ripples to be talking about it, to be sharing and to show, to give an example, to embody what it's like to pay attention and to create these gifts for our beloveds so that others say, that's not a bad idea. I should do that. You did send us a quote from a book called Mother's Wisdom to Her Daughter by Susie Hopkins.

Annalouiza (51:02.559)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (51:09.517)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ecklein (51:14.062)
You

Annalouiza (51:14.447)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David (51:22.789)
Halle Bateman. Do you want to read the quote or you want us to?

Sara Ecklein (51:27.118)
Yeah, I can read it. Yeah, it felt right for this conversation.

Rev Wakil David (51:33.003)
Yeah, yeah, perfect.

Sara Ecklein (51:36.206)
Yeah, so it's on page 126. And, and it starts out with kind of a title of plan your dream death. We spend our lives planning weddings, birthday parties, brunches, births, surprise parties, anniversaries, shopping trips, vacations, family reunions, romantic weekends. But why stop there?

Spend some time thinking about how you'd really like to die. Where are you? What are you wearing? Who are you with? Is there music? What happens next? What do you hope happens next? Keep in mind that no matter how many people you're surrounded by, you die alone. This is really your show.

Rev Wakil David (52:15.631)
you

Rev Wakil David (52:31.013)
Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well said. A perfect way to end our... But we should maybe even put that in our podcast from now on. This is your show.

Annalouiza (52:36.6)
That's so beautiful, yep, it is. Love it.

Sara Ecklein (52:41.742)
Yeah, I really love this book also just to share it. was written by the mother and her daughter illustrated it and and and the book is really just kind of beautiful. It could even sit on the coffee table. But yeah, it definitely.

Annalouiza (52:53.218)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (53:00.152)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (53:00.303)
Thanks.

Sara Ecklein (53:05.58)
you know, it's kind of that extra step of a lot of what I'm trying to kind of think about and cultivate of leaving my daughter with. So.

Rev Wakil David (53:12.963)
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, we'll link, put a link to that as well. Great. Well, again, thank you so much. And it's been a great pleasure as always. We always meet amazing people. So tell all your friends and I'll stop the recording here.

Annalouiza (53:13.233)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (53:19.192)
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Annalouiza (53:25.026)
all the time.

Annalouiza (53:29.388)
Yeah.