Helping Families Navigate Death, Dying, Grief and the Aging Process with Dr. Corinne Auman

In this conversation, Corinne Auman discusses her journey in reshaping perceptions of aging through her work with Choice Care Navigators and her book, KEENAGERS. She shares personal experiences with death and caregiving, emphasizing the importance of planning ahead, the desire for independence among older adults, and the need for open conversations about end-of-life planning. Corinne highlights the challenges families face in navigating elder care and the role of professionals in providing support. The discussion also touches on the financial aspects of elder care and the significance of quality of life over mere longevity. Ultimately, the conversation aims to empower individuals to embrace aging positively and take control of their aging process.


Aging Life Care Resource Website

Corinne’s Organization - Choice Care Navigators Website

Keenagers: Telling a New Story About Aging - her book

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:15.384)
We are privileged to speak with Corinne Amman on today's episode. Corinne founded Choice Care Navigators, a company dedicated to helping families navigate the aging process. She's also dedicated to fostering personal growth, resilience, and authentic living at every stage of life. Corinne's passion lies in reshaping how we perceive older adulthood, a vision she beautifully encapsulates in her groundbreaking book, KENAGERS.

Rev Wakil David (00:50.333)
Which we can't wait to hear more about that. So Corinne's on a mission to change the conversation around aging, which is similar mission to ours. In a culture where many avoid thinking about older adulthood until the last minute, she urges us to embrace aging in a positive light. Her story is not just about her successes, it's a call for all of us to care about aging, dispel myths, and embrace the beauty and potential of every stage of life.

So, so good to have you here. Welcome, Corinne.

Annalouiza (01:19.59)
Welcome, yes.

Corinne Auman (01:22.028)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Rev Wakil David (01:24.273)
We like to start our episodes by kind of getting to know people by asking when you first became aware of death.

Corinne Auman (01:34.286)
Well, my first real memory of it is when my grandfather passed away when I was in around eighth grade. He was the first close family member that I lost and I was really close to him. We lived right next door. If I had to make a list of like my favorite people in the world, he was at the top of that.

Rev Wakil David (01:34.493)
and maybe aging.

Corinne Auman (02:01.518)
He had picked us up after school every day from elementary school, just took us home and spent a lot of time with him. So when he passed away, it was devastating. And that was my first real experience with it. I can remember my great aunt, so his sister-in-law saying to me, I know how you feel. And just being so angry and be like, you don't know how I feel.

Rev Wakil David (02:29.923)
Ha ha ha.

Corinne Auman (02:31.394)
Because as a first experience, that is such a unique experience, the first time you have someone close to you pass away. And so, of course, as an eighth grader, I thought that my experience was completely unique and she had no understanding. I just remember being really mad at her for even saying such a thing to me. So yeah, that's the first one. And ultimately, that death had a tremendous impact on what I do now.

Rev Wakil David (02:43.303)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (02:50.301)
That's it.

Corinne Auman (03:00.206)
I mean, that is really the starting point of how I got to what I do now.

Rev Wakil David (03:00.509)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:05.874)
Well, that's a lovely little morsel of a sentence that you've given me because I'm going to ask you, how has that death impacted the rest of your story?

Rev Wakil David (03:06.183)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (03:12.999)
Ha ha.

Corinne Auman (03:16.462)
Well, yeah, I mean, okay. So we lived right next door to him and my grandmother. And when he passed away, my mom and her sister realized very quickly that their mom, my grandmother, had dementia. And they knew that there was maybe some mild cognitive impairment, that sort of thing.

Rev Wakil David (03:16.866)
Tell us more about that.

Corinne Auman (03:41.282)
but they realized that he had done such a good job of protecting her and taking care of things that they really had no idea how bad it was. And so they went from, our mom has some mild cognitive changes to, no, our mom can't be left alone at all and really needs 24 seven supervision. So now.

how are we two adult women who are working full time raising children going to figure out how to care for her 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And so I got a front row seat for that process from the time I was in eighth grade all the way through till I graduated from college or not graduated sorry until she passed away when I was a junior in college and.

watching my mom and her sister go through that experience where they made mistakes and it was really hard and it was hard to find resources. And I just remember thinking like, this is really stupid. Why isn't there somebody who helps you do all this stuff, who helps you figure out things and helps you find the resources and tells you what you can afford. And so thus was born the dream of having a care management agency, which ta-da! You're right.

Rev Wakil David (04:49.095)
Ha

Annalouiza (05:00.422)
Wow. You saw the need, you filled it.

Rev Wakil David (05:00.893)
There you are.

Corinne Auman (05:04.694)
Yeah, but I mean it really all came from that first death and then everything that happened in the years afterwards because, you know, he had done, and we see this all the time with caregivers, and know, he had basically run himself into the ground, you know, trying to care for her and had not asked for support and told people. And when he passed away, it was a big, I mean, it was a big deal to lose him, but then it was a big deal to go,

Annalouiza (05:11.87)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (05:17.787)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (05:34.66)
Wait, there's a lot of change here.

Rev Wakil David (05:36.153)
Sure. Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, we've heard that kind of story before too. And it's that whole dealing with end of life, I mean, dealing with dementia especially, is a huge, huge subject and lots more to learn about that. So looking forward to hearing more about, yeah, what you're doing now. you talk about, you know, tell us about your book, but also tell us more about this work that you've created, this organization you've created and what kind of wonderful work that does for the community that you're in.

Corinne Auman (06:06.104)
Sure, sure. So I run a care management agency. are professional name is an aging life care manager. That's our professional organization. And, you know, what we do is really help guide families through their caregiving journeys. I'd say a typical phone call for us is everything was fine until

Rev Wakil David (06:06.416)
and maybe beyond.

Corinne Auman (06:32.812)
something's happened. you know, mom was living at home and she was doing great and everything was fine until, and now something has happened and all of a sudden the family needs to know everything there is to know about senior care, Medicare, Medicaid. What do you mean? Medicare doesn't pay for long-term care stuff. How much does home care cost? What are my options for my mom or dad who has these symptoms? You know, is it assisted living? Is it memory care? Just...

The chaos of that moment is usually when we get a phone call. I love it if we get a phone call way ahead of time and people are just like, I want a plan. But that's not case of our phone calls. Most of them are, we've reached our wit's end or there's some sort of crisis and we have to try to navigate that. The name of the company is Choice Care Navigators. And it really is, we're like navigating through it. So we sit down with families and we look at what's the

Rev Wakil David (07:03.965)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (07:12.401)
Ha ha ha.

Annalouiza (07:12.552)
Beautiful. Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:17.521)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (07:32.312)
What's the healthcare situation? What's the financial situation? And what are our options? And we don't have any sort of dog in the fight. We don't care what people do. Our job is just to kind of give you the lay of the land and sometimes a reality check about what you can and can't afford or what is available for the kinds of care you need.

Rev Wakil David (07:52.509)
Yeah, yeah. And it can be so expensive. I know. I don't know how it is in the state you're in, but in Washington state, at least, they say the average is $10,000 $20,000 a month to have somebody, depending on the level of care they need. And that's a lot of money for people and can really gobble up a nest egg really quickly. And so, yeah, like you said, planning ahead is one thing we preach a lot here.

Annalouiza (07:56.424)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (08:05.037)
Mm.

Annalouiza (08:14.088)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (08:14.796)
Yes, indeed.

Rev Wakil David (08:20.349)
That can certainly help, especially with Medicare, Medicaid stuff. There's ways you can minimize the damage if you do it ahead of time. That's so great. I'm so glad you're doing that work. Wow.

Annalouiza (08:31.612)
Yeah. So I have a question about that though. You have, there's a lot of choices then that people could actually sit down and kind of cobble together some support. that, do you feel like there's a, yeah, right. Like it sounds like, you know, given every, situations story and trajectory, like you can figure out little steps to go and take care of stuff. What is the, what are, what do most people really need? What do they ask for? Like straight up, like I need.

Corinne Auman (09:00.238)
Well, what most people want is to stay at home. I mean, if you ask older adults what they want, they're going to say, I want to stay at home as long as possible. And so usually that's the goal. Like they're trying to figure out how do I cobble together? How do I put together services to make that possible so that they can stay there as long as possible safely? So there's all and there's always this push pull.

The older adult themselves, their priority is independence and freedom. And the adult child or the loved one, usually their priority is safety. And those two priorities sometimes butt heads, right? And so we're trying to help everybody see what's possible.

Annalouiza (09:35.358)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David (09:42.183)
Right.

Annalouiza (09:42.194)
Yep, yep.

Rev Wakil David (09:46.493)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (09:47.933)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (09:54.37)
based on their particular healthcare needs, their particular financial situation. I mean, it might be possible to stay at home if you had unlimited funds in terms of being able to provide 24-7 home care or things like that, but it may not be possible given your particular situation because we just can't afford it, right? And so moving into a community and using other resources might be the better way to go. So every situation is different. And I think...

Annalouiza (10:03.39)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (10:22.41)
Most people want to stay at home as long as possible, but sometimes you absolutely do have to move because the level of care just cannot be provided at home or it's cost prohibitive to provide it at home. And that's when we have to talk about, here's the reality of the situation that we're in and what are our options now.

Rev Wakil David (10:43.805)
Does the planning that you're working with also include advanced care directives and that kind of thing? So people are preparing for that part of their lives?

Corinne Auman (10:53.752)
So we always try to get, if I get them early enough, absolutely, right? So that's always one of my first questions. We get a lot of people who call that maybe their loved one is kind of in the early stages of dementia. We've got some cognitive changes, but it's not too serious yet. And so one of the first things I always ask is have they done their healthcare power of attorney, their financial power of attorney, their living will?

Rev Wakil David (10:58.642)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (11:09.755)
Right.

Corinne Auman (11:22.626)
you know, their advanced directives, all of those things, because my point to the loved one is if they don't do those things right now, the dementia is gonna progress and then they're not gonna be able to do it. And that's how people end up under guardianship because we can also be appointed guardian for someone. And most of our cases are people who have a dementia diagnosis and they never did their paperwork.

Rev Wakil David (11:32.445)
Right.

Annalouiza (11:34.803)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David (11:37.084)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:40.093)
Right.

Corinne Auman (11:52.002)
that once you get to a point where you can't sign documents anymore, then your family doesn't have any option but to pursue guardianship in order to get control of your finances, in order to take care of you. I mean, that's the reality. So yes, that is something I'm always telling people to do. I actually did a social media post here, maybe back end of April, because my oldest son turned 18 and...

Rev Wakil David (12:03.91)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (12:17.671)
Mm.

Annalouiza (12:17.691)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (12:18.318)
Five days after he turned 18, we had him at the lawyer's office signing all of his paperwork because everybody should have this. It's not an old person thing. It's an everybody thing because, and of course my 18 year old was like, I don't know why I have to do this. And I explained it to him. said, because if something happens to you now, we're not the automatic go-to. We're not necessarily in charge if we don't have these papers. And he was like,

Annalouiza (12:23.492)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Right.

Rev Wakil David (12:24.902)
Okay.

Absolutely.

Annalouiza (12:30.782)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David (12:30.94)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (12:35.739)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (12:36.072)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:43.068)
Right, right.

Rev Wakil David (12:43.559)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:47.165)
Right.

Corinne Auman (12:47.648)
and I appoint my best friend and one of his buddies. And we're like, well, you can if that's you really want in chart. So we had to kind of work through it. But that's how important it is. And I'm trying to walk the walk. I'm not just talking it. I'm out there doing it too. Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:49.656)
Ahahaha. Ahahaha. Ahaha.

Rev Wakil David (12:49.776)
You

Rev Wakil David (12:54.181)
You

Annalouiza (13:01.231)
It is.

Rev Wakil David (13:05.437)
I love that. love that. think that would be a really wonderful guidance for our audience and anybody that we talk to in our communities. As soon as your children are old enough, take them in and make them feel as that was they want to or not.

Annalouiza (13:05.438)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:15.452)
Yes.

Corinne Auman (13:19.959)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:23.742)
Yeah, you know, I did that, I think it was 10 years ago. I've done it once where I invited a bunch of moms whose kids were, had health issues and were heading out to college and they had just turned 18 and I had told them, uh, senior year of high school kids get into a lot of trouble and they sometimes wind up in hospitals and they're already 18 and mom and dad have no say in whatever happens, right?

So yes, I ended up doing it I keep meaning to like reach out again to some more parents that I know with kids who are coming of age to say, let's get together and do these papers together, which, know, I feel like that's a great time to start educating young people who will hopefully go through their whole life thinking about like, there are documents in my, you know, in my aging process that are required so that I could, you know, we can all be well.

Rev Wakil David (13:58.312)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (14:06.011)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:18.79)
nurtured, cared for, things go right, know, like training.

Corinne Auman (14:22.286)
The thing that I always tell people, because so many people are like, you do that stuff, something bad is going to happen. Or they say, I'll do it when it's time. And the thing is, none of us know when that time is coming. But also, don't look at it as, we have to talk about death or incapacitation. Think of it as,

Annalouiza (14:30.344)
Bad luck.

Rev Wakil David (14:32.497)
All right.

Annalouiza (14:37.491)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (14:37.607)
Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:41.149)
Yes.

Corinne Auman (14:52.102)
I'm gonna get what I want. Like this is empowerment. This is your time to take control of what is going to happen if you are not able to speak for yourself. So this is the moment when you get to say to everybody around you, I want this, I want that, I don't want that. If you do that, I'm coming for you. know, like, it's the best way to have whatever you want to have happen. It's the best way to make sure

Annalouiza (15:05.042)
Right.

Annalouiza (15:10.364)
Right.

Rev Wakil David (15:13.615)
Hahaha!

Annalouiza (15:13.662)
Yes.

Corinne Auman (15:21.324)
that is what happens. Because if you don't do it and you haven't talked to anybody and then you do end up in a coma or something like that, you know, your family may be fighting about what they think you wanted and you may not get what you want because they didn't know.

Annalouiza (15:22.856)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:33.468)
Right? Right.

Rev Wakil David (15:37.117)
Yeah, exactly. That happens far too often. Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:38.066)
Yep, it does happen. So what are the biggest challenges that you find when having these conversations with families when they call you up?

Corinne Auman (15:46.786)
think the biggest challenge is often that sort of, I'll do it when it's time, know, parents or loved ones who are reluctant to fill it out, who think that's just something old people do. And so they're, I don't, you're, just calling me old or, or you just want it, you know, I don't want to do those things. You just want all my stuff, you know, that kind of thing running into that kind of resistance. And that's, you know,

Rev Wakil David (16:02.973)
No.

Corinne Auman (16:13.408)
Sometimes, not always, but sometimes if you do bring in an outside person, a professional, maybe a care manager, but maybe it's some other trusted family friend, a minister or someone like that, who can come in and kind of say, this is stuff that protects you and makes sure you get what you want. And it also is a gift to your family because it makes sure that they know what you want.

Annalouiza (16:35.922)
Right.

Rev Wakil David (16:36.06)
Absolutely.

Corinne Auman (16:38.316)
and it protects them from fighting and arguing about stuff when they're already upset because something has happened to you. And sometimes when that outside person comes in, it hits a little differently than when your kids are saying it. I mean, I think we all sometimes wish our parents would listen to us, but there are rules about if they changed your diaper, they don't have to listen to you. And that's just a universal sort of rule out there. And I think...

Annalouiza (16:41.779)
Yes.

Yes.

Rev Wakil David (16:52.539)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (17:00.923)
haha

Yeah.

Corinne Auman (17:06.558)
Sometimes getting some outside help can be really useful because when they hear it from someone else or somebody that they respect and trust it may land differently than when you are saying it.

Annalouiza (17:16.242)
Yeah, right, right. It is really hard with kids. Sorry, go ahead.

Rev Wakil David (17:19.003)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that also, yeah, especially. That reminds me another thing we always emphasize, that's that, especially if you do it when you're 18, to revisit it on a regular basis, because your priorities might change, the people you might assign might change. now, as I'm getting older, I'm going back, I've gone back and changed mine to...

Corinne Auman (17:33.388)
Yes.

Annalouiza (17:33.736)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (17:46.713)
encourage or to find younger people to be my care director, know, to be my agents, because the people that I originally chose are getting as old as me. They may not be here at that point. And finding people who you know or trust can have the capacity, even in that state of grieving and lost to do that work.

Corinne Auman (17:49.238)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (17:52.51)
Thank you.

Corinne Auman (17:58.744)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (18:09.004)
Well, and you can, if you don't have anyone, you can do professionals. like we can, my company can be appointed healthcare power of attorney for people. So, and most of the people who use us for that are what we call solo agers. And they're folks who maybe they just never had kids or their family all lives really far away. And so they're just not able to do it. And maybe you just don't like your family.

Rev Wakil David (18:20.561)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (18:25.212)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:25.371)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (18:34.205)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:36.764)
Yeah, that's okay too.

Corinne Auman (18:39.534)
That's okay too. And so you can hire professionals to fulfill those roles if you don't have anybody in your life that you really want to put in that position because I mean it is a fairly big ask of somebody to say, I need you to be in charge if anything happens to me. And some people say sure, no problem. And other people are not really ready to take on that kind of responsibility.

Rev Wakil David (18:52.689)
Yeah, it is.

Rev Wakil David (18:58.044)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David (19:03.965)
Yeah, and again, that's why you check back on a regular basis, because somebody might say at one point, yeah, I could do that, and then later say, you know what, I don't think I'm up to that anymore. And also, it reminded me of something else that went away, but it'll come back. Yeah, go ahead.

Annalouiza (19:12.28)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:18.514)
But also, well, and I was, I'm going to jump in right now while you forgot yours. you know, I was just, I was just sitting with some folks recently who, didn't know that their, relatives had named them the executors of their estate. And they were like, wow, I, we didn't know about this, like just out of the blue and it's a lot of work and it's a lot of, you have to be like ready for this kind of stuff. So yeah, so I.

Rev Wakil David (19:31.671)
Mm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (19:38.684)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (19:46.35)
Good job.

Annalouiza (19:47.398)
It's a job. I encourage all of the listeners, all of us to always be in conversation with people who you are going to ask for help from, know, and families and, as much as, you know, aunt Kelly may really love to help you out, she may not be actually able to do that, that big lift, right? And it's okay too.

Rev Wakil David (19:56.079)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (20:06.513)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corinne Auman (20:07.724)
Yeah, you should always tell the people that you're naming in the documents that you're naming them. Yeah, that's a good one. And then you should also make sure that those individuals have copies of the documents, original if possible, like make multiple originals so that like healthcare power of attorney or financial, that those documents are very easy to grab and take and have when you need them because what you don't want to do is sign them and then lock them in a drawer.

Rev Wakil David (20:10.557)
You

Annalouiza (20:11.782)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Rev Wakil David (20:13.405)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David (20:20.091)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:20.818)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:36.83)
Yeah. Right.

Corinne Auman (20:37.166)
the safe deposit box and you know because if we can't access them they're actually not useful at all.

Rev Wakil David (20:43.613)
Yep, exactly. That's really true. That's really true. I love that. That's important. I know what it was I was thinking earlier is that because we do classes on preparation planning and things, and we've had this come up a lot, this idea of solo elders. But we've also had it come up a lot is the idea that I don't have enough money to hire somebody, right? I don't have enough money to do. All of these things we've just talked about are expensive, and elder care is a... I don't even want to get into how...

Annalouiza (20:47.88)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:04.008)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (21:13.207)
I feel about the industrial complex, the elder industrial complex, but you know, it is expensive. so do you have solutions for people who may not have the funds to hire somebody here? Are there pro bono people out there that would help work or for maybe a sliding scale or anything like that?

Corinne Auman (21:33.346)
You know, I don't know of anybody who does it pro bono. I do know that there is a wide variation in terms of what places charge. So for example, there are attorneys in my area who charge thousands of dollars more for that service than we do. So there is wide variation. So I think my best advice would be to shop around.

Rev Wakil David (21:53.821)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:53.854)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (22:00.209)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:00.22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (22:00.962)
multiple people, multiple agencies what they charge for that service because I think attorneys are going to be a lot more expensive than maybe care managers and you might be able to find something more affordable. But I don't know of anybody who does it pro bono. There may be somebody, but I don't know of anybody in my area.

Annalouiza (22:10.141)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (22:18.129)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:20.978)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (22:21.221)
Yeah, OK, yeah, I think we read. think at one point we found somebody who did that we could and we have a link to it in our in our resources in our resources document. Yeah, I'll look for it and see if I can send it to you. I'll just if I can, I'll send you the whole resource document because you probably enjoy it all. And we're always adding to it. The nice thing about this document that I send to people after they take the class is that it grows and grows and grows and grows.

Corinne Auman (22:28.014)
Great, then I need that link.

Annalouiza (22:46.866)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (22:47.074)
you

Rev Wakil David (22:47.517)
In I just met somebody last week who gave me about 20 pages more to add to it. anyway, there's always more out there and I believe there was somebody in there. But in any case, I like what you said about shopping around. I think that's another thing we've talked about is the idea that if somebody like we have up here, we have something called People's Memorial, which is for it's like a cooperative for funeral homes. And it's the idea of is to find less expensive funeral care.

Annalouiza (22:51.223)
Wow.

Corinne Auman (23:00.174)
you

Annalouiza (23:00.306)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (23:16.751)
And so these all these different organizations cooperate together and collaborating and give you a lower price. And you join the people's memorial and they handle all that, right? They can help you shop around basically and help you find what you want, you know? So I've talked to them in the past and it just seems like that's a an opportunity for somebody, probably not me, but for somebody to create something like that in their communities. So it's where you have an organization that helps you.

Annalouiza (23:26.045)
Mm.

Corinne Auman (23:28.238)
Perfect.

Rev Wakil David (23:46.361)
locate the different people that are willing to maybe give them lesser prices and help you find the people that would match what you have available or what your resources are. So is there anything that frightens you about the end of life or your end of life or others? What comes up? Again, this might go back to the challenges we talked about.

Corinne Auman (24:11.15)
You know, I myself am not afraid of it. And in fact, sometimes I think, like if I got a really, you know, a really terminal diagnosis, I think would I want to fight that? Is that something I would want to do or would I want to just say, okay, I think like, you know, I just, not afraid. I'm not afraid of what's coming on the other side that doesn't bother me at all. I think.

Annalouiza (24:24.423)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (24:24.861)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (24:29.04)
Hahaha

Corinne Auman (24:40.43)
I think I worry about my kids, because I still have kids at home. so that would be a motivation. So I would worry about my family, but I don't worry about me. Like, I feel very at peace with the idea that whatever comes after is going to be just fine. That doesn't bother me. I think the end of life, I worry.

Annalouiza (24:51.516)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:59.088)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (24:59.314)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (25:09.57)
like probably everybody does, I don't want to be in pain, right? Like I don't think we treat humans very humanely as we grow older with our, the industrial complex that tries to keep you alive and tries to keep you alive and tries to keep you alive. I don't really want to participate in that, thank you. It's the quality of life versus the quantity.

Annalouiza (25:12.84)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:30.972)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (25:31.342)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (25:37.228)
The quantity is not everything. Don't keep me here if the quality is not good. And that doesn't seem to be what we focus on in the healthcare industrial complex. that's, yeah, I don't want that. I think that's my biggest worry. It's not the actual death. It's that peace beforehand where people are trying to keep me here and they really shouldn't.

Annalouiza (25:43.282)
Right. Right.

Annalouiza (26:04.774)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David (26:04.795)
Yeah, yeah, which is why that documentation means so much, right?

Corinne Auman (26:08.814)
That's why that documentation is everything.

Annalouiza (26:10.072)
and the conversations, yes.

Corinne Auman (26:13.218)
Yeah. And I have, I have all mine filled out. mean, you know, and I very clearly do not do these things, right? Like not prolong this because I, yeah, I don't want that. I don't want that at all.

Rev Wakil David (26:13.297)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:19.399)
You

Rev Wakil David (26:19.797)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And we've heard stories too of even though people make it very clear what they want, once they are no longer able to speak or give their opinion of their families ignoring those things. so again, think having that conversation and really making it very clear, this is truly what I want to have happen. Please do not make a different decision for me.

Annalouiza (26:21.938)
Yes. Yes.

Corinne Auman (26:36.674)
Yes.

Annalouiza (26:42.515)
Mm-hmm.

you

Corinne Auman (26:48.312)
think sometimes when families do that, it's because the families can't let go. The families don't want the person to be gone. And so it's, they're letting their own heartbreak rule their decision making. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (26:52.924)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (27:00.69)
Yeah.

Yeah, it does happen quite more often than I would like it to be. yeah, it's true. And again, I think just that's why we want to have these conversations more regularly and more on an open basis so that people can talk about it openly and really truly buy in.

Annalouiza (27:03.838)
Mm.

Annalouiza (27:07.356)
Yes. Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:21.466)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So as you're going day to day, Corinne, how do you keep yourself resourced? How do you keep yourself ready for the next day and the next phone calls that you're going to receive?

Corinne Auman (27:37.006)
day at a time, you know, how do you elephant one bite at a time? You know, we are so much you know, my company is a team, I have two social workers, I have two nurses, I have myself and then another care manager as well. And, you know, we are operating as a team, like we have our team calls on Monday morning, and they are always an adventure in terms of well, here's what's happening. And here's the chaos that's ensuing with different clients and things.

Annalouiza (27:41.405)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (27:41.456)
You

Rev Wakil David (28:00.252)
Hehehe.

Corinne Auman (28:06.786)
But we really, know, number one, you have to laugh. Whatever's happening. We had one, we had a client this morning to make a long story very short. We had worked really hard to get their dogs placed with someone else because they were, one of the people had fall, the gentleman had fallen because he'd taken the dog out and the dog's not very good on the leash.

Rev Wakil David (28:10.301)
Right.

Corinne Auman (28:32.544)
he'd fallen and hurt himself. So we got the dogs placed with someone else who would bring the dogs to visit, but they weren't living with this couple anymore. And he just had a fit. I want my dogs back. want my dogs back. So he got his dogs back on Friday. On Saturday morning, he fell and broke his femur. And then the wife also fell the same day trying to deal with the dogs. So it took about 24 hours.

Annalouiza (28:51.25)
Rev Wakil David (28:52.455)
God.

Rev Wakil David (28:58.541)
god.

Annalouiza (28:58.674)
God.

Corinne Auman (29:02.05)
And it's one of those things where you're like, and I believe this is exactly what we said was going to happen. You're like, OK, OK, cool. Not to say, but it's one of those things where we just kind of have to laugh so that we won't cry. And the family's the same way. The daughters are in the exact same boat, and we're all just kind of like, OK. But you know, with

Rev Wakil David (29:10.813)
Not to say I told you so, but...

Rev Wakil David (29:18.493)
Yeah, yes.

Annalouiza (29:18.504)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (29:27.308)
We had our team meeting this morning, who's going to the hospital to visit which one? And how are we, the dogs are back with the other people and how are we going to coordinate all of this? So, you know, we really, we really work as a team and try to support each other and laugh and vent our frustrations to each other so that we can continue to help the clients. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (29:32.157)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David (29:47.164)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David (29:50.973)
That's so good, yeah. The community.

Annalouiza (29:51.046)
Yeah, it sounds like teenagers, doesn't it? Like, you know, like I have a teenager. So sometimes I'm like, my God, that choice, it's going to have this consequence, right? But you can't stop them from making that choice. And you're like, okay.

Rev Wakil David (29:55.367)
Hahaha

Corinne Auman (30:04.578)
Mm-mm. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I always tell adult children that we're working with, or really anybody we're working with, when you have an older adult who is making bad decisions, guess what? They're an adult and they get to make bad decisions. Just like I, I get to make bad decisions. Unless they're cognitively impaired or we've got a dementia diagnosis. Now that's a different story.

Rev Wakil David (30:06.717)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:26.046)
you

Corinne Auman (30:34.2)
But if they're cognitively good, they get to make terrible decisions. If I want to make a terrible decision today, there is nothing you can do to stop me. I can go do it. And that is true for older adults. As we age, people tend to want to start making decisions for us. It's not at a specific age. I don't know when it happens, but we stop seeing people as adults.

Annalouiza (30:34.384)
Uh-huh.

Rev Wakil David (30:43.453)
Ha

Annalouiza (30:45.758)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:54.59)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (31:01.078)
and we start seeing them as older adults and we need to take care of them. We need to protect them. It's that whole safety thing again. And they're adults. They get to make terrible decisions just like all the rest of us. And all we can do is sit there and shake our heads and laugh so that we don't cry and go, okay, now what do we do?

Annalouiza (31:10.792)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David (31:13.373)
Ha ha.

Annalouiza (31:15.134)
Rev Wakil David (31:20.827)
Yeah, yeah, adapt. I love that. That's such a great, great way of putting it. So I wanted to hear more about the book, Key Natures, if you could tell us a little bit about that and anything else that you wish we had asked you about, because we're getting toward the end of the time and love to hear more about that. And I mean, if you wanted to read something from it or you just want to tell us more about it, that would be great.

Annalouiza (31:21.672)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (31:44.77)
tell you about it because so the book is teenagers with a K and telling a new story about aging and it's really a book about how our perception of aging has not changed even though older adulthood itself has changed dramatically in the last hundred years. know, 65 today is not what 65 was in, you when Social Security was first enacted. I mean, it's just

Rev Wakil David (32:02.107)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (32:10.958)
in the 1930s, it's radically different. You have decades more time in front of you at 65, which was not the case back then. And so if we, the stereotypes we have about aging and what it means to be an older adult are outdated and need to be rethought for all of us. Because, and people are often, they're like, you run this care management agency where you are seeing the chaos. And then you're also saying, let's tell a new story about aging.

Annalouiza (32:28.722)
Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (32:39.462)
You

Corinne Auman (32:39.854)
But how I got there is, and when I first started my business back in 2012, I really thought I was gonna be working with 40 year olds who were caring for 70 year old parents. And that's not what's happening. I work with 70 year olds who are caring for their 90 year old parents, their 95 year old parents. mean, so my 65, 70 year old clients, they're...

Annalouiza (32:53.086)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (32:58.278)
Wow!

Rev Wakil David (32:59.227)
Haha, wow.

Corinne Auman (33:05.198)
They're still working. They're doing all kinds of stuff. They're volunteering, you know, they might be retired but they're on to their second, you know, career, their second whatever, their encore, you know, and I really thought if I had it that wrong, everybody else has it that wrong too because, you know,

Annalouiza (33:11.986)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (33:17.457)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:18.429)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (33:24.286)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (33:26.476)
And that's where KeenAger came from because if you start to try to talk about older adulthood in a positive way, I dare you to go just like Google positive words about aging.

Annalouiza (33:38.308)
Really?

Corinne Auman (33:39.692)
They really don't. mean, you get like active ager or elder, but most of the words are really negative and language shapes how we think about things. And so let's have a positive word to describe these years where people may have retired from their first career, but they're on to their next thing. Right. Like what's the next adventure? What's what's the next iteration of who I'm going to be?

Rev Wakil David (33:43.835)
you

Annalouiza (33:50.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:03.346)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (34:08.24)
Exactly.

Corinne Auman (34:08.268)
So the book is a lot of interviews with people like that. These are normal people. These are not some sort of super seniors. They're not bodybuilders and running triathlons, but they are doing really interesting things even though they have health problems, even though they're caring for aging parents, all that. And then, so the book talks about them, gives you some mentors for like, this is who I would like to be when I grow up. But then it also kind of says, like, here's how you

Rev Wakil David (34:34.268)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (34:37.262)
plan for it, right? Like, let's do all our documents. Let's prepare. Let's fight our own internal ageism, right? That voice inside our head that goes, I'm too old to wear that. Or, you know, what's all this gray hair doing on my head? You know, things like that, that, because fighting ageism starts with ourselves. It starts in your own head with what you are thinking. Because once you start paying attention, you will not believe the things that come out of your own mouth about

Annalouiza (34:38.77)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:45.372)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (34:45.671)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:49.576)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (34:49.796)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David (34:58.375)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:59.122)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (35:06.493)
You

Corinne Auman (35:06.894)
Because I have this experience all the time. The other day I was telling some friends, my husband loves to go to concerts, and I was telling some friends, I don't want to go to concerts with him because I'm an old lady. I need to be in bed at 930. And then afterwards I thought, what did I just say? Because that's not true. I have never liked going out at night really well. When I was in college and everybody else wanted to go out, you

Rev Wakil David (35:21.829)
You

Rev Wakil David (35:26.598)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (35:34.99)
to the party or whatever at 10, 11, 12. I wanted to be in bed. I was like, no, this is no fun. It has nothing to do with my age, but that those words come out of your mouth and you stop and go, why do I say that? What is this? So those are some highlights of kind of what the book is about and trying to help us reshape that story that we're telling about the aging process.

Rev Wakil David (35:41.415)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (35:45.01)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:52.21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:59.944)
Hmm.

Corinne Auman (36:03.16)
because that story you're telling will impact how it actually goes for you.

Rev Wakil David (36:03.217)
I love that, yeah.

Annalouiza (36:06.494)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (36:07.985)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And as a 72 year old who decided to do a podcast a couple of years ago, could absolutely relate. Yeah, so true.

Corinne Auman (36:14.03)
Perfect example.

Annalouiza (36:14.374)
Hahaha

Yeah, and as a 56 year old who loves to go out to shows at night and my daughter is at the door, she's like, be careful mom, take an Uber home. You know, she is like, and I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll see ya.

Corinne Auman (36:26.569)
Hahaha!

Corinne Auman (36:31.436)
Yeah, yeah, that's and that's not me. My husband loves it. And I'm just like, yeah, no, unless it is like my favorite music person band, something on earth that I might go to but otherwise, no, thank you.

Rev Wakil David (36:31.889)
haha

Annalouiza (36:35.058)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David (36:42.461)
You

I love it. That's great. Well, that sounds really good. I can't wait to take a good look at that book and we'll put it in our list of resources as well. Yeah, so thanks so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to tell us about that you wish we'd had asked?

Annalouiza (36:45.405)
Yeah.

Corinne Auman (37:03.342)
I don't think so, I think we covered it.

Annalouiza (37:05.595)
Yeah. And would you be interested in sharing your quote with us? Do you have it up in front of you?

Rev Wakil David (37:05.637)
All right, very good.

Corinne Auman (37:12.974)
Ooh, ooh, that's it. Yes, you tell me the quote, because I don't have it front of me.

Annalouiza (37:14.684)
Or we could read it.

Rev Wakil David (37:18.333)
It's sweet and short and from one of my favorite authors. In fact, when I was a kid, I read every single word he ever wrote. yep.

Corinne Auman (37:27.392)
Is it the Mark Twain quote? Okay, okay.

Annalouiza (37:29.234)
Mm-hmm.

Corinne Auman (37:33.038)
Wait a minute, if you're.

Corinne Auman (37:37.676)
I'm not, I'm gonna get it wrong, so you read it.

Rev Wakil David (37:40.477)
You want to it, Andalisa? We can read it twice. It's always nice to read it more than once.

Annalouiza (37:43.496)
Sure. All right. Age is a state of mind. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. By Mark Twain.

Rev Wakil David (37:53.149)
Right? Age is a state of mind. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. I love that. That's so great. Yeah. And thanks. It's such a perfect way to end this conversation. It's been really sweet. I really appreciate you and the work you're doing. And thankfully, there are people like you out there doing this work. I should ask just real quickly, and maybe if you have a link, there an organization of caregivers around the country or around the

Annalouiza (38:00.35)
doesn't matter.

Annalouiza (38:05.212)
Yes.

Annalouiza (38:13.15)
you

Rev Wakil David (38:22.651)
Even the world care managers.

Corinne Auman (38:22.67)
Care managers, yeah. If you wanted to find a care manager, you go to the website for aginglifecare.org and there's a big orange button on the home screen that allows you to find an expert in your area. You can search by zip code.

Rev Wakil David (38:32.913)
Okay.

Annalouiza (38:41.256)
Wow, that is so helpful.

Rev Wakil David (38:41.413)
Aging life care. Okay, cool. I'm going to put that in there. I will. I'll put it on that and also on our podcast notes for this. Wonderful. Well, thank you again, Corinne. It's been so nice to meet you. We love every time we meet wonderful people, we've met at yet another one. Gives us hope. All right, well, take care. All right, take care. I'll stop the recording.

Corinne Auman (38:43.79)
Yeah, put it on your resources list if it's not already.

Annalouiza (38:52.424)
Thank you so much.

Corinne Auman (38:55.47)
Thank you.

Corinne Auman (39:00.418)
You

Annalouiza (39:00.712)
Yes.

Corinne Auman (39:03.746)
It was my foot.