The Questions That Save Your Family From Conflict with Monica Kumar

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Monica Kumar, an end-of-life educator and author, shares her profound insights on death, grief, and the importance of legacy planning and asking/answering all of these essential questions as soon as you can. Drawing from her personal experiences of loss, she emphasizes the need for open conversations about death and the values that guide our decisions at the end of life. Monica discusses the challenges of caregiving planning, the limitations of traditional wills, and the significance of understanding quality of life. She advocates for a playful approach to discussing mortality, highlighting the importance of self-care in the field of death work.

Website: beyondeolplanning.com
Book: Beyond Loss: The Power of Purposeful Grief  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F899PY61 (Kindle) https://payhip.com/b/1nKkl (PDF)
Recent Article: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2025/07/we-dont-have-to-inherit-the-silence-choosing-a-new-lens-on-death-grief-monica-kumar/

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:01.779)
Welcome everyone. Today we are talking with Monica Arora Kumar. Monica is an end of life educator, former nurse, and the author of Beyond Loss, The Power of Purposeful Grief. She's also the creator of the Complete Family Legacy Planning Framework, a program that helps families navigate end of life planning by bringing family values, relationships, and practical steps together in one place with a structure and emotional support for those who have never been shown how to do this.

Monica is from Vancouver, BC, the first in her family to be born in Canada after her parents immigrated from India with her older brother. In 2012, her mother died suddenly, and nine months later, her brother died by suicide. In less than a year, she lost her entire immediate family.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:00.835)
Wow, that's big. That's big. Thank you. In 2017, Monica left her 15-year nursing career and moved to Mexico, driven among other things by a misalignment with the medical model's approach to life and death. We know about that. And the longing to live differently. Since then, she's trained as a death doula and advanced care planning specialist. Her work is deeply informed by both her professional background and personal experience blending the practical with the emotional and always guided by the belief that planning for death is really about honoring life. Monica, yeah, Monica, Monica now lives much of her life in Spanish. We should just do this in Spanish, huh, Luis? But my Spanish isn't good enough, She believes that some of the most meaningful work we do is the quiet kind sitting beside.

Annalouiza (01:36.528)
This is.

Annalouiza (01:42.9)
Sí, vamos hablando en español.

Monica (01:45.319)
Well...

Exactly.

Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:57.753)
someone who's grieving, listening without fixing and staying present, really. That's really it. Staying present when things get hard. So thank you so much for joining us today, Monica. We really appreciate it. Can you tell us a little more about when you first became aware of death in your life?

Monica (02:08.521)
Thank

Monica (02:15.837)
Yeah, so that I remember the first time that I became aware of death was when I was six years old. My brother was quite a lot older than me. He was 12 years older than me and he had already started to show signs of mental illness by that time. And he attempted suicide for the first time when I was six and he was 18. So what I remember is that I knew what happened. So I don't remember how my parents explained it to me.

but I remember understanding what happened and sort of what it meant. And then what was more impactful and I think has had more of a effect on me and my attitudes, I would say around death and life is when we would, I would go to, we would go to the psych ward to visit him and they took me with them and not necessarily my brother. can't remember that so much, but I remember seeing the other patients that were

very, this is in the 80s, very over-medicated, slumping, overdruling, and just having this, was so impactful to me. I think it really, even though I wouldn't have been able to understand it at the time, I think it started my ideas and questions around what is life, what is quality of life, who decides that for other people, and those kinds of questions, big, questions.

Annalouiza (03:35.906)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (03:43.017)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:44.182)
Yeah, so it does already sound that death, the awareness of death had an early start with you to start asking the questions. So tell us a little bit more about all those questions that you found yourself looking for answers to in your quest till today. Like what, what evolved this formative time has been like.

Monica (04:05.221)
Yeah, it sort of that carried over to my career as in nursing as well, where I always felt like I was a little bit on the sidelines as far as my colleagues, other nurses, doctors, where, you know, there was this, you know, obviously massive focus on we have to save this life. I worked in emergency too. So it was even, you know, more.

Annalouiza (04:32.302)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:32.409)
you

Monica (04:35.291)
So, but I was always asking this question of like, what is this person's life gonna look like after this intervention? What their unconscious, most likely, we don't have any direction from them. The family is now in a situation where they're making this decision right in this second of like life and death, right? Between this person with also not a clear picture of what that life is gonna look like. And so,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:42.265)
Right.

Annalouiza (04:54.806)
Institute.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:01.615)
you

Monica (05:03.399)
Yeah, I think those are the questions that were always like brewing underneath me, brewing underneath me, you when I was asking them to myself. And many times when I would try and, you know, bring that up in any way to colleagues or anything, it was like, what are you, what are you talking about? You know, basically, like, yeah, total weirdo. Yeah, one of the scariest things that happened, things that I heard a doctor say to me and the

Annalouiza (05:22.178)
Weirdo.

Monica (05:32.319)
what we were talking about was especially to me really just honestly wrong. We were talking about the change in, this is already 12 years ago, so we were talking about the change in technology for neonates and being able to save babies that were very premature, like more premature than we were able to at that time. And she said, you know, as a doctor, it's really hard to let someone die.

And when I started asking her questions about like, okay, but what about the brain development of that baby? And like, are the parents prepared for like what kind of life that baby is gonna have and how they're gonna develop and things like that. that wasn't part of her process of it, right? It was like, no, we can save this life. That's, I can save the body, right? And so that was also related to the people with mental illness and the people that are, you know,

Annalouiza (06:21.646)
You could save the body.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:24.825)
care.

Monica (06:32.511)
marginalized and people that are making the decisions for those people that are powerless that actually don't have a lot of concept of what it is to live that life and definitely don't have to live the consequences, suffering of whatever happens to them, right? Choices. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:51.15)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (06:52.814)
choices. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:55.799)
Yeah, well, that's a good point, really good point. We try to, both Anneliese and I do classes trying to help people get ready and you've got your work that you're doing as well. We're going to hear more about that. it's really true that we do need to think seriously about what are we preserving? it can be a very, very difficult question as well for people too.

Monica (07:19.601)
Absolutely, like when I was thinking about this, I'm like, is it even honestly, is it even teachable? Like that doesn't mean that we're off the hook for like not trying, for not trying, right? But is it actually teachable? And it does have to come from sort of both sides. Like I do think if we're speaking specifically about medicine, they're not the only ones that are responsible for this, but like if we're speaking specifically about medicine and how that needs to change from doctors and how they present.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:26.883)
Yeah.

Right, yeah.

Monica (07:48.999)
life, death, illness, treatment, all of those two patients. But this also has to come from our side as well, which conversations like this are so important. There's so many conversations going on. We also have to be ready to hear those things, right? And then weigh it out accordingly.

Annalouiza (07:50.22)
choices.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:04.515)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:04.77)
right?

hear them and also having had this process that you've, you have, you're now standing on your values so that when you have a choice, does this affect my quality of life in terms of eating, let's say, right? Or my child eating. If it's a, this child will be forever eating out of a feeding tube. It's a different, you know, that's another value we hold. I'm a cook, I'm a chef, whatever, right? But we kind of,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:15.897)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:23.225)
Okay.

Annalouiza (08:35.426)
Like we don't have these ideas about these conversations or these values that we have. People generally don't know what their values are. so when they're so, no. So when they're confronted with it, with this idea of life, they, they just hear life and let's just go, but they're not making value choices. And I think values are something that are really important to talk about.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:41.453)
Yeah.

Monica (08:41.479)
No, they haven't, no, yet.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:55.513)
Yeah.

Monica (08:55.519)
There absolutely are. And what you just said about, yes, life, but then related to that also is like, have you thought about what life is to you? Is it breathing unconsciously with a feeding tube or is it the next step from that or is it all the steps? Is it exactly how you live today?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:08.975)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (09:09.058)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (09:20.77)
Right. And would you offer that as a choice for your baby or your elder? Right. Which I always remember a tool go on. I'm being mortal, I guess. The conversation he had was father who had cancer. And and, know, the conversation went, what is what do you consider quality of life? And he said, I want to be able to watch football with my friends and I want to eat an ice cream. And a tool was like, I understand, like he doesn't even like sports. Like, what's the deal?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:22.392)
Yeah.

Monica (09:26.857)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:26.905)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:43.417)
Hmph.

Annalouiza (09:50.818)
But the quality of life piece for that was like, want to be in community, able to sit with my friends and enjoy a something. And I want to actually lick an ice cream. So the moment when his father was told, yeah, we could do this new cutting edge process on your, I think it was stomach cancer he had. And he's like, but you'll forever have to lay down in a bed. You will never be able to get up again.

and you will only be fed by a feeding tube. And they're both like, that's the moment when we choose because the value is sitting around with your friends and eating ice cream that will never happen again. So now we have to like switch gears and say, no, no, it's like comfort care, end of life palliative stuff, right? But unless you have that conversation and you don't know that that person values eating an ice cream cone or eating through their mouth.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:29.759)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:43.247)
Right, right, yeah.

Monica (10:45.789)
Yeah, not even just the values, like it was such a clear picture of, right? Like no question around what he meant by that or anything like that. mm-hmm. I've heard that story before. Some reason I didn't know that it was from being mortal because I haven't read that book. yeah. Yes. I'm going through the process of all the, I don't know if you've read When Breath Becomes Air.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:49.975)
Right, yeah.

Annalouiza (10:53.09)
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. It's.

Annalouiza (11:04.013)
Yeah.

Good luck.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:08.313)
Good book.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:15.311)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:15.734)
yeah, I think that's like right here. I got them all.

Monica (11:16.61)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so when I was between being mortal and that one, and at that time I chose when breath becomes air. And now I'll read the being mortal.

Annalouiza (11:25.39)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:27.875)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:27.97)
I will say being mortal is for me was a lot better of a book because it gave you the tools to think about those values. And I think that I want to live my life from my values. And so when people have like, you could do this. Well, does that align with my values? And if it doesn't, well, I could just say no, or I get to walk away. Right. So I think around death and dying, it's like, you have to know what your values are.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:34.805)
Mm, yeah.

Monica (11:45.393)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (11:53.442)
Right. And even for having a child, like I remember when I was pregnant with my first child, I remember saying like I was an older mom. And if I find out that, you know, there's going to be a disability, I don't know that I could continue this because I was raised with a family who had disabled, a disabled kiddo. And my entire life was all about taking care of that one person and it, you know, that alignment with the value of like, I should also have some space to like do me.

and all of our resources shouldn't just be for one person. That's a conversation I had with my then husband. And it was like, it's hard and people do not like that conversation. They don't want to hear about it. But I had to be very clear, like, this is a really hard place to be.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:31.171)
Great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:36.399)
Sure. Yeah, specifically for you because of your background. But yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (12:41.122)
Right. And somebody else could be like, I don't care if this child is tube fed and has a brainstem because I want to love and give. And I'm like, beautiful. That will be your choice.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:50.211)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Monica (12:52.389)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that conversation that you just had about how it affected you as a child or how it would affect the other child or children, that is very much a lived experience. And you can know it, right? Like, it's something that, and you know how you were affected by that experience for, you know, the good and for the bad and whether or not that was, like, worth

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:05.859)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Annalouiza (13:06.658)
It is.

Annalouiza (13:18.606)
Yeah, and I won't even give it a binary like that. It's a lived experience that still continues to speak into my life around the things that I value and how I move forward. And I don't judge people in their myriad of choices. I just know that, you know, my sister just died five years ago, and so for 51 years of my life, it was a constant.

Monica (13:22.053)
No.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:37.337)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:46.414)
support of this one person, this entire family supported one person. that's a lot, that's a big ask.

Monica (13:50.597)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it definitely is. And yeah, and I think what you just said about the myriad of choices and respecting those choices and 100%. I think for me, a lot of times what the question or the issue is, is are they making an actual informed choice? Right? What...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:52.823)
Yeah, it is. Very much.

Annalouiza (14:10.958)
Right, Can you, and most people don't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:11.917)
Yeah, yeah.

Monica (14:15.743)
And most people don't, and again, it's like the responsibility that lies with the people that are convincing them that they can save this life. It also lies with the responsibility of the person that wants to hear it, that isn't imagining all of the different circumstances, the different consequences, the beauty of it, the really hard things about it, how it's gonna affect. So, and again, it's like, it's hard to know. It's like the same thing as I'm saying, it teachable?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:15.777)
Haha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:27.311)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:44.387)
Yeah.

Monica (14:44.563)
How much information do we have to give somebody or how much information do we need to receive before we can say, yes, now we're making an informed choice, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:56.175)
Right, yeah, yeah. And that might be impossible in the end, really, to do it all. But it's necessary. because of what people's stories are, because of what people's capacity to hear, you can do your best, and we do our best. And we need to do our best. And that's kind of what we'll talk about next, maybe, in the book you're working on, or your book. But in the end, it comes down to that person has the agency to decide.

Monica (15:01.951)
But I think it's...

Monica (15:19.167)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:26.585)
whether based on their own capacity to engage or to hear what's being said, to understand it.

Monica (15:35.997)
Yeah, and then also the question becomes like, where does that capacity come from? Right? Because different households like my experience, different households, different cultures, know, different even generations have different capacity. And so I think that that's sort of where our biggest opportunity comes, kind of is like, how do we

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:40.42)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:46.788)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (16:05.201)
increase people's capacity for that or how do we expand people's capacity for that, right?

Annalouiza (16:09.346)
Right. Yeah. And I have this conversation with my daughter. My daughter has autism. And so there's another really big lift for me as a single mom working and supporting my daughter and helping her out. And we talk about that. And I just always say, it's really hard because it's just me doing the heavy lifting. There's no family who will come and support. There's no community. There's no.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:10.435)
Yeah, perfect.

Annalouiza (16:37.506)
There aren't like people saying, like you're a single mom to an autistic kid. Let's like support you. Like what's going on? It's a very lonely world. We traverse with disabled families here in the United States.

Monica (16:50.907)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, and I think when maybe with certain disabilities, there's a little bit of change in that where the people that have the children with that disability are coming together to try and support each other. But then there's so much day-to-day, minute-to-minute things that are going on that it's almost like connecting with people that could support you is just another thing that you might have to do, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:51.117)
Yeah, so true. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:00.751)
you

Annalouiza (17:06.883)
Right.

Yeah. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:11.151)
Okay.

Monica (17:19.999)
But yeah, I think that there is a little bit of change with communities within communities that are sort of forming in that way. But yeah, I can only imagine how difficult, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:30.681)
Yeah. Well, and as you said, this conversation is one that we're having. The reason we're doing this podcast is to begin to have these conversations and begin to get people more comfortable with talking about all of this thing. So really appreciate that. Yeah. I'd like to hear more about the current work you're doing or the work you've done and are engaged with, with your book and the other work. Really fascinating stuff and looks and very, I looked at it as very, very, looks very useful, very important.

Monica (17:41.917)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:42.048)
All of

Monica (17:58.283)
thank you. My book. Yeah. So when my mother died, this was the worst thing that ever happened to me. And it will always be the worst thing that ever happened to me. when, when that immediately when it happened and the whole process since then until today, which is 13 years later, I just have in I continue to see ways.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:19.609)
Hmm.

Monica (18:27.441)
in which her preparation for her death and all of her preparation for me, like how she prepared me for life, I still see new ways that in a new situation that I'm facing, how that preparation helped me and then how my process through grief has just transformed me and then how my process through grief was so informed.

Annalouiza (18:43.67)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (18:55.271)
and affected by how my mother prepared me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:57.988)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (19:02.943)
So that was, and then when that happened, so I was the first person of my group of friends to lose my mother. I wasn't super young, I was 34, but young enough. And now is sort of the time, you know, I'm in my late 40s, and now is this time where more of my friends are losing their parents and stuff. And I was also the closest to my mother. And so when I was completely shattered, but also still...

able to take on all this responsibility of being the executor. She had multiple properties. My brother was in a mental health crisis at that time. He was actually already in the hospital when my mom passed away. So trying to take care of him and all of the different things that I was handling. And my friends, knowing how shattered I was, knowing how much my mom was like everything to me, and knowing how much responsibility I was now taking on and functioning to a certain degree.

They were just in awe, right? Like, how are you able to do this? And I was like, well, like my mom prepared me, like specific questions they would ask me. How do you know how to do this? How do you know how to do that? How do you know what to do with this property? And I was like, well, my mom prepared me, you know, and not like sat down and had a conversation with me one day. Like this was constant, consistent values, right?

Annalouiza (20:13.656)
culture. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:20.591)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:21.334)
Yes.

Monica (20:23.333)
sacrifice, like especially as immigrant children, one thing that I really thought about and reflected on, or it just kind of hit me one day where I was like as immigrant, children of immigrants, how we, what we pass on to our children is not as important as how we pass on what we pass on to our children. Because the level of, and I'm not saying that other families aren't like this, but when,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:40.239)
you

Monica (20:48.689)
immigrant families come to another country, oftentimes they come with nothing, they build from nothing, and they have to sacrifice a lot to build whatever it is that they have. And because of the values of, you know, sort of we'll say Eastern cultures or however you want to call them, you know, it's very important to pass on to your children and for your children to have an easier time than you did.

And so if you pass this stuff on, wealth, say, without any instruction or without your values and your expectations of them, then it's just gonna get blown, right? And I'll tell you guys a story that I was really, it's still, this is kind of what informed that idea. A couple of years after my mom died, I went to our accountant. So he had been her accountant, now he was my accountant.

Annalouiza (21:18.37)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:26.497)
Right.

Monica (21:42.123)
And he was looking at everything that I'd done and everything that I had and he said, this is like two years, I think, after. He's like, it's so nice to see that you still have the money that your mom gave you. And I was like, what do you mean? Of course I have the money that my mom gave me. And he just said, Monica, you have no idea what people do.

You know, and I was like, to me, you know, I was still a nurse at that time. I could blow my own money and do whatever. But as far as my mother's money, it was like, no, I had to do exactly what I think she would have done or exactly what she would have wanted me to do. And she had left that very clear to me. Right. So, yeah. So so I wanted to. So my friends, they were like, no, my.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:07.311)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:11.151)
You

Annalouiza (22:23.598)
That's beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:23.791)
Thanks.

Monica (22:32.125)
my parents' finances are none of my business. Like they have no idea, they don't even know where they have a bank account, like no clue whatsoever, right? And I remember in my mind being like, okay, well, good luck when they die, you know? And so over time, I realized I want to try my best to help people to be any more prepared than they are today, you know, in any way possible because...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:44.695)
Right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:55.267)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:57.656)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (23:01.683)
you know, there's a lot of resistance to talk about it.

Annalouiza (23:04.758)
Right. So what is it that you're doing?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:04.801)
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Monica (23:09.535)
So a couple of years ago, I became an end-of-life doula. But then I decided I wanted to do advanced care planning more, especially for this reason, because I wanted people to be more prepared. And because I'm in Tulum, I'm sort of isolated. I don't have another end-of-life doulas or anything around me. So what I decided to do was develop an online program. So that's my complete Family Legacy Planning program. And it is...

It takes people through every single part of planning, including clinical, legal, obviously they have to work with the lawyer, but I really prepare them for those meetings and what they need to take, financial planning, personal planning. And then one thing that I think is missing from a lot of advanced care plans is caregiving planning, which I've never really seen in any other programs.

Annalouiza (23:48.142)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:00.399)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (24:07.429)
to be talking about that and so many times when I've seen with clients that now the opportunity is gone to ask their parent what they would want, if it would be okay for example, if they could go to a nursing home. But now the parent is in full-fledged dementia and the family is trying to take care of the family member and they're drowning, right? But they cannot bring themselves to bring them to a nursing home.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:21.859)
Great.

Monica (24:36.029)
because they never had the conversation with their parent before and they are completely convinced that their parent would never ever want that. But they don't know, right, it's just the assumption and they never had the conversation when they had the chance. So I think that with caregiving planning it's difficult, I mean with any kind of planning there's this idea that we can plan for X, Y, Z and maybe, you know.

Annalouiza (24:42.604)
Right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:43.311)
All right. Right.

Annalouiza (24:50.284)
Yeah.

Monica (25:01.695)
S is going to happen. So we can't prepare for everything. And with caregiving planning, even more so because we don't know what kind of, you know, trajectory we're going to take. Yeah. But I think there are some baseline choices, baseline decisions, baseline values that can be talked about that can inform any kind of sort of path that that person may take and to just help the family to, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:03.012)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (25:03.139)
Right.

Annalouiza (25:10.818)
Right. Needed to go. Right.

Annalouiza (25:22.509)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:26.873)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:27.053)
All

Monica (25:31.327)
make decisions.

Annalouiza (25:33.774)
Right. And I think that's the key too, is that, and that's what I always tell everybody I talk about advanced care directive planning. It's like, you you can have this document and this document may actually like be left behind in your desk drawer when something is going on. So people don't actually know, but the people around you who have heard you talk about the values that you have will be able to make informed decisions with or without that piece of paper, because it'll be like, wait a second. My mother said this over and over again. And I think that this situation, I think she'd be okay with this, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:33.827)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:02.703)
you

Annalouiza (26:03.394)
Like, you know, I want to die in the woods, but you know, if I have dementia, my kids know, like, you don't have to take care of me full time. Like, it's okay. I want to make sure that you're okay. So they already hear that. They know they're like, okay, that choice, we know what our values lie in. But it's conversations.

Monica (26:20.179)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's having those conversations. So my program is kind of built in the idea that I had these conversations, like I said, over a lifetime. Not everybody has that opportunity, and especially now they don't have the opportunity of that much time because their parents are getting older and now it's time to have those conversations. So to provide everything in one place that's a container that sort of you can get the most benefit of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:20.301)
Yeah, Yeah, but it's having those conversations exactly.

Monica (26:49.115)
instead of having the lifetime of conversations, the most sort of robust conversations and planning that you can in a shorter amount of time. So I'm actually like, right, I built this program this year. So I'm still in, it's complete, but I'm still in the sort of building momentum, getting it out there, beta testing and that kind of stuff with the program. But I'm super, super happy with it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:57.113)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:03.511)
OK.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:14.191)
Great, yeah. Wow, so important, thank you. mean, you know, we do this, both of us do similar things and I can't, there can't be enough, really. So every opportunity, we'll certainly put podcast notes, we'll have links and everything so people can get in touch. And I love that you're doing it online, that reaches out. I do my class online as well, just speak for that reason, you know, just because you want to be able to reach as many people as possible. And there can't be enough, like I said, it's just like.

Annalouiza (27:19.022)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:32.494)
you

Monica (27:37.673)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:38.048)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (27:43.038)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:43.951)
The more the better. so thank you so much for doing that. And I think it's great. I think it'd be kind of fun sometime for all of us to sit down and compare notes and say, because I know every single time I do my class, I learned something new from the people I'm teaching, know, and I had had things and had things. It keeps getting longer. anyway, so thank you so much for doing that. And when you said caregiving, I was kind of wondering whether you meant talking about who you would have as a caregiver or

Monica (27:59.923)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:12.707)
But you're talking more, it sounds like you're talking more about what kind of caregiving would you prefer, depending on what situation comes up. And as you said, we can't know every situation things change. And the other part that we've talked about many times is to make sure you don't just put that on the shelf somewhere and forget about it, but you look at it again in a year or whatever and say, is it still valid? Do I still feel this way? Do we have enough money? That kind of stuff. yeah.

Monica (28:35.037)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:36.714)
Mm-hmm. That's the big issue.

Monica (28:39.325)
Did someone die before you or? Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:41.879)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's why you pick young people to be your care agents.

Monica (28:46.279)
Yeah, but even for the caregiving, like for caregiving planning, say if the person is like, no, I really want to be cared for in the home by the family. Okay. But now let's talk about what that is actually going to look like. Right. How is it going to be manageable for the family? Are you expecting one person to do it? If that's the case, how are they going to be supported? Where are the finances? Where are this? Right. Because

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:55.471)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:01.004)
Exactly.

Monica (29:13.427)
We know what happens. Normally it's just something happens and now the caregiving is dumped on one family member, right? The one that happens to be the closest in proximity. And of course they have to be that person, but say the other people that are farther away, there's other ways that they could still support that person. But they're like, I'm hands off. if these, you know, kind of explored the reality of the situation with the person who needs a caregiving involved.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:13.496)
me.

Annalouiza (29:19.694)
Yes

Annalouiza (29:24.078)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:30.84)
Support that's right

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:32.729)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Monica (29:43.485)
I still feel like it can really address at least some of the really big problems that could come up ahead.

Annalouiza (29:49.998)
Right. I also like to talk about who you don't want to have around you. That's an important piece for me. I'm like, make a list of people you do not want anywhere near you. And we can stick it, because that also happens quite a bit.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:56.783)
Yeah.

Monica (30:01.769)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:01.967)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah, yeah.

Monica (30:06.419)
The people that come out of the woodwork when you're like, now she's dying or something, right? Yeah. That I have in my, the personal planning part, because the personal planning has more to do with how you would want to be cared for sort of in your last period, like whether that's months or weeks or days, and then goes into vigil and funeral or memorial planning and things, but it's definitely included in there. Like, who do you not want to be around? Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:10.2)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:11.128)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:26.606)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (30:30.146)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:32.279)
Yeah, Please. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (30:33.655)
Yeah. Yeah.

Monica (30:36.669)
Mm-hmm, 100%.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:40.111)
Where are we? OK. go ahead, Adelisa. think it's here. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:42.658)
your challenges. So what are your challenges that you find with this, with your line of work right now?

Monica (30:48.893)
Yeah, so it's definitely the resistance to talk about it, right? And so I find that talking to people about grief is so much easier because they're in it, right? And they're experiencing it and they're in it and they want to feel better or they just want to be, you know, witnessed in it, whatever it is. So it's a lot easier to talk to people about grief than it is to talk to people about advanced care planning. And even

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:51.31)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:59.215)
All right.

Monica (31:18.065)
when you talk to them, you're like, every single person has a story about a family that they know that was left in a complete mess because of no planning or not sufficient planning or whatever. And even then it's still like, yeah, we know we need to do that. We're gonna do it, we're gonna do it. And so that's the hardest part for sure.

Annalouiza (31:36.014)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:37.236)
You

Yeah, yeah, we were just talking about people we know in our lives who both of course we talk about this all the time. That's who we are, right? But who literally say, no, I don't want anything to do that. I'm not going to think about that, right? So yeah, I thought about that question about challenges. I that's probably the biggest challenge. It's a challenge we face the most is people who just are afraid of this or don't want to talk about it.

Annalouiza (31:48.334)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (31:52.873)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:58.189)
Yeah.

Monica (31:59.205)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (32:01.708)
or on

Or what I find, this has happened a lot of times too for me, they say, hey, so do you have your advanced care directive plan? And they'll say, yes, I've already talked to my lawyer. I have my living will. And I have my whatever, right? Like whatever words that they want to use. And I was like, well, that really? Does it have your advanced care? And they look at me as though I'm an idiot. Like, I have my will.

Monica (32:20.371)
power of attorney and that's it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:26.895)
You

haha

Annalouiza (32:29.718)
And I'm always, you so I have to figure out like what kind of relationship I have with this. It's usually a friend. It's usually a good friend who will be like, they don't really actually know what that what I as it is I'm talking about, but they think they know. And they're going to be really resistant to like, that there is something else that they should be doing. Right? Like, like, I, yeah. And so I recently talked to a friend, was like, I need to redo my, my advanced care directive and use, and he said, yeah, like, I need to do my will again. And I'm like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:47.299)
Yeah, yeah, so much more.

Monica (32:47.443)
Right.

Annalouiza (32:58.868)
do you have your advanced care directive? It's like, well, I have to, you know, I have to call my lawyer and do my well. It's really bizarre. Like I'm like, all right, well, I'll show you my advanced care when I'm done so that you can get an idea of what it is I'm talking about.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:04.577)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Monica (33:10.055)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and one of the ways that I kind of address that with people, one, I think, you know, this is also just a, we're still stuck in these old ideas and these old systems that haven't caught up that a will, having a will is enough, right? Even if we're not even talking about our advanced care directives, even with that, having a will really isn't enough, right? Like we have all these...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:26.958)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:35.491)
Try it, yeah.

Monica (33:37.055)
devices and all these different bank accounts everywhere and digital bank accounts and cryptocurrency and properties. You just have a will. What is the person really going to do with that? How are they going to know where things are and how to move things? And also, again, a will is you get this, you get that, but it's not like what I would really hope happens with that or anything.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:45.625)
Haha.

Annalouiza (34:02.318)
Right. Right.

Monica (34:05.265)
Another way that I kind of address that with people is first a will is not enough, but a will is you're dead and it's assets, right? But you are so much more than a list of assets. And what about life? What about what happens before death? Like a will is boom, you're dead. What about the even little bit of time before that or the extended, right? And so now it's not about your

Annalouiza (34:29.112)
Right, right, yeah.

Monica (34:33.405)
heirs or your assets, it's really about you and what you want that last time to look like.

Annalouiza (34:37.218)
Yeah.

It's the value. So, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:40.399)
Yeah, yeah. And also, like you said, more than, I mean, at least in the state I'm in, I'm in Washington state, just having a will is you're going to be spending months in court because you've got to go through the whole probate and interstacy and all this stuff to find out, you know, the court has to approve it. And if you've only got a will and there's no, depending on your assets, but you know, there's no explanation, what do you want to have a new cabin to your car or, you know, those kinds of stuff. The judge, the

Courts are going to have to figure this out, you know. And so it'll take a lot longer unless you're spending the time thinking about these things and getting them talked about and written down hopefully in some way that people can find it and know where to find it. Yeah, there's so much more. So thanks.

Monica (35:11.679)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (35:22.461)
Mm-hmm. So in the legal part of my program where people are going to have to go see a lawyer and everything, I explain I have a whole list of the types of assets that people may have because your lawyer isn't going to ask you, do you have a car? Do you have this? Do you have that? No, you have to go to them saying, this is a list of assets that I have and all of these need to be included.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:39.011)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:44.024)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (35:51.665)
in my will, right? I even ask people like, I know this is, you know, not so common anymore, but it still does happen. Like if you have some cash buried somewhere or hidden in the house somewhere, like you don't have to have that in your will, but somebody needs to know where it is, right? Somebody needs to know where it is, so.

Annalouiza (35:51.756)
Right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:51.887)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:04.399)
Right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:10.03)
Yeah. Yeah. I know. And you know, this is the funny thing. I think that we've become stingy with with or actually we hide the parts of ourselves in this modern age, right? Because it's a little embarrassing. I tell I have like thousands of books in this house. And I tell the kids when I die, you have to go through every single one of these books because I used to stash like 20s in a book, because you never knew I was like, that's my savings account. So was like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:27.759)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:31.639)
You

Annalouiza (36:37.486)
It'll make you go through all my books from my 20s and you'll be, oh, there's two fives mom left here and a card, know, whatever. But, you know, it could be like shaming to tell people that's how I save some of my money, right? Nobody wants to know that, but I'm like, it's a scavenger hunt when I die. Like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:53.849)
Hahaha.

Monica (36:54.495)
Absolutely, and also such a connection to you and a way for them to even get to know you, right, by what you were reading after. Like that's just, I love.

Annalouiza (37:02.295)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:05.679)
That's a good idea. think I'm going to go put a bunch of in my books.

Monica (37:08.595)
Yeah, because it'll make sure that they actually do it, right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:12.581)
They know and and we know we we we clean out books every once in a while and I still do that too. I'm like, did I leave anything in here? I just found some pictures in one of my books. I'm like, oh, I haven't seen these forever. And I was like, OK, bye bye book. But you got to a picture. I also just cleaned up my basement and I found a bunch of old pictures of when I went fly fishing in Montana and I had stuck them in a bunch of old like my tackle boxes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:24.937)
Heh heh. Heh. Heh heh heh.

Monica (37:28.347)
metal treasures for sure.

Annalouiza (37:39.982)
for that purpose because I kind of wanted to be surprised by these memories. I'm like, oh yeah, I took this tackle box with me when I went to Montana. But I think that that's the thing. We need to make people are playful with this end of life piece because people are so resistant and they're so ashamed of what they do or didn't do or I don't know. It just feels like it's silly. Like, let's just get in there.

Monica (37:51.871)
I'm so...

Monica (38:01.897)
It's silly. is. for me, sometimes I almost think that it's hard for me to understand the people that I work with, right? And their resistance because it was just so normal to me and I don't have that kind of resistance. so, you know, and so it's a, it's it's.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:03.265)
I love that.

Annalouiza (38:13.024)
Yeah. Right.

Annalouiza (38:20.108)
Right.

Monica (38:24.505)
challenge for me sometimes to be like no no I actually have to meet this resistance with compassion and try and understand it right but the playfulness is so important so I last year when I was still studying to become doing the advanced care planning I got this I had some girlfriends that were staying here with me and one of them is like very

Annalouiza (38:30.211)
Yeah.

Monica (38:48.043)
She never wants to talk about it. She doesn't even want to talk about it. She doesn't tell people her age. She doesn't want to talk about aging. She doesn't want to talk about death ever. So I got this app because I was studying this and I got this app. don't know if you know it. It's called We Croak. Have you ever heard of it? Yeah. Yeah. So what it does is I think three or four times a day it sends you a little alert and when you open the alert you get a quote about death. Like really profound or funny or whatever it is. But this is the best part. So the...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:52.047)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:01.997)
We could all go, it. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (39:02.478)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (39:10.67)
beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:13.903)
Yeah.

Monica (39:17.023)
The alert says, don't forget, you're gonna die. And so the alert was a special sound that my phone didn't make any other time. So every time it would ding, Rachel, my friend, would know what it was. And I'd be like, oh, don't forget, you're gonna die. And she was like, ugh. Like at the beginning, she was like, ugh. And then the next time I'd be like, if I was around her, I'd be like, oh, don't forget, we're gonna die. She was like, and over time, over a month.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:21.647)
Ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:34.787)
Hahaha!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:45.391)
haha

Monica (39:46.439)
She started to laugh every time and she started to say it. When she would hear the ding, she'd be like, don't forget, you're gonna die. And so that was like last year, January to March-ish. And then just this year, I went to Vancouver, she lives in Vancouver. I was in Vancouver, my dad passed away actually and I was staying at her house for a few days. And we had this full on conversation about that.

Annalouiza (39:46.53)
Mm-hmm. Mm, beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:52.963)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (39:54.84)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:56.303)
I love it.

Annalouiza (40:12.642)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Monica (40:14.111)
You know, and so the lightness, right? Yeah, it can go a long way. I didn't have that expectation when I was doing it, you know, of the app, but it, yeah.

Annalouiza (40:17.196)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:18.34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:25.016)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:26.479)
That's really a good story.

Annalouiza (40:28.726)
And that just proves it is a great story. And I love how it reinforces what, Kiel and I are doing is the more we try to encourage these conversations and talk to people about this is a great conversation to be having. may be difficult at the beginning for some, but hopefully over time, it just kind of annoys people enough like, okay, fine. You know, like let's have that conversation. And I just taught a class. was a cultural economics and racial considerations at the end of life. And.

Monica (40:47.38)
I'm you.

Annalouiza (40:57.474)
I had this whole weekend class and we were talking and finally this one woman piped in and she said, you know, I've never been with somebody who she's like, this is not the right word, but so irreverent about death. She's like, it's so fun to hear you talk about this because you're just so late about it. And I'm like, it's part, it's under the umbrella of life. There's birth and death. This is just a life. Like, I don't, you know, why not? So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:08.303)
you

Monica (41:20.273)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I could definitely use to be a little bit more light about it. That would probably help. mm-hmm, yeah. About everything, absolutely. So, I would love to compare notes if that...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:20.815)
Right, exactly. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:31.083)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:35.875)
Yeah, I think that's a great lesson to being playful, learning to be playful about everything in life, really. Yeah.

Monica (41:48.241)
if we can do that at some point, because another one of my challenges is, again, like being here in Tulum and sort of isolated from, there's a lot of people that are working in tanahtalagia here, not a lot, but some, is sort of a different, it's Tanahtalogy. Tanahtalogy, yeah. And they're doing great work, but we're not quite the same. so I'm loosely connected with them, but I would love to, yeah, just brainstorm and-

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:56.558)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (42:03.768)
Venetology. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:12.207)
Come

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:16.271)
Yeah, well, we could.

Annalouiza (42:17.644)
to do that too. But I also I want to just hold space for like we just interviewed a bunch of death thulas and everybody comes to it with different skills and different challenges and know ways that they can support people and I like I actually wrote a book called the 15 minutes before you die. It's a little workbook so people can go through and figure out their advanced care directive planning steps and not everybody will find that to be as useful. Wackil has a different

you know, class that he teaches. I feel like all of us collectively can learn from each other, but we don't have to catch every single person's needs, right? Like the people who are called to us will be who we can support.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:49.743)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:56.206)
Yeah.

Monica (43:01.255)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's like when you said, there's not, there can't be enough, right? There can't be enough. There was a time where, you know, it seemed like, obviously, when you're in the world, it also seems that way. We're like, everybody's becoming a death doula now. Like, should I do it? Or is it, am I too late? Or what's situation? But then I kind of compared it to how many personal trainers there are in the world or how many yoga teachers there are in the world. And that doesn't mean in any way

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:01.337)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right.

Annalouiza (43:07.277)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:16.879)
You

All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:26.134)
Right.

Annalouiza (43:26.392)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Monica (43:30.771)
that there shouldn't be another yoga teacher or that there shouldn't be another personal trainer, right? And especially since every single person on this planet is going to die, probably there can't be enough, you know, doulas or people working in this like field or realm in any way that they are, so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:35.823)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:40.665)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (43:42.488)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:48.783)
Absolutely. Yeah, so true. Yeah, I think I really appreciate that too. And actually, it's true, it's partially because of the people we hang out with that it seems like everybody is doing death work because everybody we talk to is in fact doing that. But it really is a pretty small group of people.

Annalouiza (44:00.172)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Monica (44:06.759)
Yeah, it's still very new. Also, the stuff I search for on YouTube or the stuff that I search for on podcasts or say everything's about death. No, everything is not about death. Everything that you're looking for is about that. Right. And it is amazing, though. There is so many conversations going on. And in that way, yeah, if we think about it, it is really quite new. Like, how many how many years can we be talking that this has been maybe since post pandemic or like during pandemic?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:12.311)
Yeah, yeah. Right, Yeah. Yeah. It does.

Annalouiza (44:16.91)
You

Monica (44:36.487)
I think that that's where it became a little bit more mainstream.

Annalouiza (44:40.654)
I haven't, I haven't, it has been more mainstream because I remember when I trained to be a natural funeral director with Karen, this woman from Boulder, this was like 60, 15 years ago. And she told me, she's like, as a death midwife, you're way too early. People do not know what you're doing and you're needed, but they have no idea what you're doing. And so now it's like, yeah, everybody's come out of the woodwork and saying that they're doing that stuff too. And I was like, my God, I've been doing this for so long.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:57.455)
Hmm.

Monica (45:09.417)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:09.731)
Yeah. It also has to do with algorithms, I think, that's all we see.

Annalouiza (45:10.328)
you

Annalouiza (45:16.45)
This is true. And also we're calling it in, Wacky. Let's be real. My yard sale this weekend, I talked to everybody about death.

Monica (45:16.777)
Yes, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:21.571)
That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's what we do. Yeah. We get, we, yeah, we're getting, we've had so much fun. We're kind of getting longer than we usually would go. But I guess we should probably try to move it up a little bit here. What kind of things do you do to keep yourself resourced in this work? I think that's always a good, good, important thing for us to hear.

Monica (45:27.113)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (45:29.838)
All right, next question, Wukil.

Monica (45:48.421)
Yeah, well, I live in the Caribbean, so I'm quite lucky in that way. yeah, you know, it's a very, life otherwise is not super stressful. And I think that in general is just a really helpful thing. Plus, you know, we have the beach and cenotes and lagoons. so nature is always a big part of my self-care, I guess. I'm really good at self-care, actually.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:53.271)
That helps.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:15.161)
Yeah. Good.

Monica (46:17.799)
Yeah, I'm really good at self care. And I play sports and I keep myself active and I eat good food and I have really, really good friends. So I'm very fortunate in that situation where they really, they let me, even if they're uncomfortable with it, they let me talk about death and my work and challenges and everything in between. And we talk about everything and it's a really beautiful thing. I think my friends are probably my biggest resource.

Annalouiza (46:28.184)
Beautiful. I love that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:34.613)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:46.797)
That's great. Wow, what a blessing. That's so good.

Annalouiza (46:47.054)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (46:48.211)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:52.719)
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. mean, the kind of the last thing is, is there anything we haven't asked that you want to talk about? And that is one of the questions. So certainly tell us what frightens you. Yeah.

Monica (46:54.909)
You don't want to know what frightens me.

Annalouiza (46:55.246)
Should we have, yeah, was gonna say, well.

Monica (47:05.841)
Well, I'm not sure if you're going to want to include this or not, but honestly, so my big thing is dementia. That is what frightens me the most about the end of life. last year, all of a sudden it got like intense and I was like, I can't get dementia. That's the one thing I absolutely can't get. And so I started researching and everything I could about how to prevent, you know, the best ways to prevent it or whatever. And I found out that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:09.826)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:13.881)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Monica (47:34.675)
I was doing most of the things already. And actually the number one thing that we can do to prevent dementia is exercise and an especially sort of complex exercise. Things like dancing, learning, you're moving your body, but you're also like learning choreography and things like that. So I did Muay Thai for, which is kind of like kickboxing for 13 years. So I was like, that's the same as dancing. I'm totally doing that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:51.147)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:00.671)
Yeah.

Monica (48:02.015)
But I remember at the time I was talking to people, my friends and stuff about it and I was like, I'm really scared of dementia. So was like, who is going to take care of me? Like that is a thing that is so for all of us, right? Who is gonna take care of us? But especially like I have no family, right? So who is gonna take care of me? And my really good friend who's 15 years younger than me, who lived here in Tulum for a lot of years and she moved back to Hungary. She was like, I'll take care of you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:13.657)
Sure, yeah.

Annalouiza (48:13.837)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (48:30.627)
No.

Monica (48:30.769)
And even that, like, it just meant, it meant so much to me, you But yeah, dementia, think, is my number one.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:30.845)
huh.

Annalouiza (48:33.443)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (48:37.954)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:38.169)
yeah, yeah, I certainly understand that. That's hard. I just worked with a family whose mother had shown signs of dementia 20 years ago and then after five years started really going downhill and was being cared for at home for another five years and then 10 more years of being institutionalized and so 20 years of dealing with this, know. Wow, and it's so, so hard. She just died so they came to

Monica (48:40.393)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (49:01.548)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:06.703)
do some counseling. So, this, wow, just each of them, there's two boys, two sons and a father. And it was also interesting, each of their perspectives were a little different, you know, and each of them needed a little different consideration things to think about. But yeah, that's part of it too, you know, how are the people who are going to take care of you, how are they going to be taken care of, you know, and supported? like what you said earlier about making sure that

Annalouiza (49:23.426)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (49:29.046)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:36.195)
that that caregiver has care and you know that that's a really important piece of it. Yeah. So is there anything else you wish we would have asked you about?

Monica (49:38.493)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (49:38.52)
Mm-hmm.

Monica (49:45.887)
Not that I can think of. That was a really nice conversation. loved it. think you guys are great interviewers. don't know if you developed that skill as you went along or if it was something that you naturally have, but yeah, you're really good at just keeping conversation flowing and really appreciate it. I've really enjoyed listening to the other episodes that you've done as well. mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (49:50.592)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:50.777)
Yeah.

Haha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:10.799)
Great. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that. Tell all your friends. Yeah, think we started. for sure.

Monica (50:13.907)
Yep. Well, all my friends are excited about this episode, so that'll get them started. Yeah.

Annalouiza (50:14.243)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (50:18.412)
Yeah, great.

Monica (50:24.979)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:25.209)
Yeah, think Ana Luisa and I were having these conversations and I think we're just naturally good at conversing about this. We just realized that. Yeah.

Annalouiza (50:32.6)
Well, we went to seminary together. Yeah. And so every time they said, okay, find a partner and break up and like go and discuss whatever he and I would connect and we'd be like, yeah. And then they died or what? Like it was always like circling around this whole death paradigm. And I'm like, dude, like we're like right, we're stinking right in it. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:46.255)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:50.895)
Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, absolutely, that's become our ministry.

Monica (50:53.863)
This seems to be our thing, right? Yeah. Let's do something with it. Yeah, that's great. That's great.

Annalouiza (50:59.277)
Yeah.

Do want to read your poem?

Monica (51:04.229)
I do. I have.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:08.503)
It's so interesting that you brought Andrea Gibson. Somebody else I was talking to was telling me they really loved Andrea Gibson. And I said, well, we're interviewing about an Andrea. Turns out to be a different Andrea. But the poetry that we just did this interview, it'll actually get posted right before yours when you see it. Definitely listen to it. And just incredible poetry. A woman who, in her last three years of life,

Monica (51:23.655)
huh.

Annalouiza (51:25.184)
Yeah, ugh.

Annalouiza (51:30.414)
So amazing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:36.579)
was a poet to begin with, an excellent poet, but she wrote like 80 poems in the last three years of her life. And it's just very profound. It's not published yet, or we published in September, but wow, what a book. Both, no, no, but the work will actually be published in September as well. So yeah, it's an amazing book. Yeah, we had to read many of those poems as we went along.

Monica (51:48.361)
The episode or her work? Her work is published, right? Okay. okay.

Annalouiza (51:53.027)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (52:01.036)
So, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:06.545)
Each time we would say, whoa. It's really.

Annalouiza (52:09.016)
Yeah. Monica, have your poem in front of us if you want to throw it in the chat.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:13.933)
Or if you want to read it, do you want to?

Monica (52:15.029)
yeah, because I just don't have it. I have to get into my email and where would you like me to start it?

Annalouiza (52:17.742)
Okay, that's fine.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:23.087)
I can, well, I think it starts where it says at the end of our lives, don't we want to say we celebrated the holiday of having bodies? Yeah, I can do that. I can drop it in chat so you can do it. Or, yeah. Right. Let's see if I can find it. Where is chat on here?

Annalouiza (52:29.806)
And do you want to put it in the chat box? Okay.

Monica (52:33.875)
Yeah, if you could do that, that would be great, because that way I don't have to split screens and stuff.

Annalouiza (52:42.552)
to the far right corner. Yeah.

Monica (52:42.589)
I have, shoot, my power just went out. I'm gonna lose you. Eee.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:43.577)
There it is, thanks, yeah. It kinda hides out. Okay.

Monica (52:49.82)
my god.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:53.967)
Okay, you see that?

Annalouiza (52:58.262)
did she freeze?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:00.189)
she froze. That's what's happening. Well, why don't we read it? And then if she comes back, we'll let her read it again. You want to read it? Okay.

Annalouiza (53:01.41)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (53:11.018)
Okay, sure. It's a poem by Andrea Gibson, but we reading just an excerpt of it. It's called The Life-Giving Benefits of Befriending Our Mortality. At the end of our lives, don't we want to say we celebrate the holiday of having bodies? Don't we want to know we have lived like we never forgot we were born astonished?

and were never intended to grow out of our awe. Awe is the most powerful medicine in the world. I have never felt awe and shame at the same time, awe and loneliness at the same time, awe and judgment at the same time, and nothing wakes us to awe more than life's brevity, which is to say forming an intimate relationship with our mortality could not only save us.

It could save our world. If you don't believe me, tell me the last time you saw anything bite with its jaw dropped. I know the culture we live in. I know mortality isn't small talk, but I wish it was because it is the seed of connection, the seed of true healing, and the seed of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:18.093)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:32.087)
Yeah, wow, I love that line. Tell me the last time you saw anything bite with its jaw dropped. Yeah, beautiful. I think that's fine. Do you want me to read it again or you think it's probably good? Yeah. All right, well, thank you, darling. Appreciate you. let me check. It looks like it did. Let me stop the recording and I'll see if it did.