The Secret to Healing One Day at a Time with Christine Jurisich

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In this conversation, Christine Jurisich shares her journey as a retreat facilitator and her experiences with grief and spirituality. She discusses the profound impact of death on her life, the importance of vulnerability and community in healing, and the role of rituals in processing grief. Christine emphasizes the non-linear nature of grief and the significance of listening and being present for others. She also highlights her ministry, Retreat Reflect Renew, which aims to foster deep spirituality and genuine community. The conversation concludes with a contemplative prayer that invites listeners to connect with their emotions and the divine.

Taking care of your well-being is essential, especially as you live through grief and loss. This video gives insight into improving your mental health through practicing self-care. You'll also learn about mindfulness techniques to reduce stress and anxiety

To find out more about upcoming retreats, go to www.RetreatReflectRenew.org

Transcript

Annalouiza (00:02.27)
Hello and welcome back everyone. We are so excited to have this opportunity to speak to Christine Juricich. She is a retreat facilitator and the founder of Retreat, Reflect and Renew Ministry, a mostly online retreat ministry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:23.074)
Yeah, I was looking at your website. It looks really fascinating. Yeah. The first thing that caught me was the still small voice. Listening for the still small voice. That's such an important part of my work and all of our work if we're paying attention, I guess. Yeah. It could be, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, Christine also holds a master's in theology.

Annalouiza (00:26.79)
Rich.

Christine Jurisich (00:28.879)
God.

Annalouiza (00:32.082)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (00:38.669)
I know every day that could be the name of every retreat that we do. Really, yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. Definitely. Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:52.674)
with emphasis in mercy spirituality, which we want to hear more about and as a Mercy Associate, spiritual director trained through the Mercy Institute of Spiritual Formation at Mercy Center, Berlin Game. She's also the author of Retreat Reflect Renew, a sacred journal for a more peaceful you. So definitely going to hear some more about all of that. We always like to start though by just kind of hearing from people when they first, when, when did you first become aware of death?

Annalouiza (00:56.03)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (01:13.768)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (01:22.587)
I really appreciate this question. Now, looking back, I see what a profound moment when death entered my world. I was in fourth grade and I lost my grandfather on my mom's side. A big extended family, dinner every Sunday at Grandma and Grandpa's house. So my grandpa was a big part of my life. And I just remember, I mean, at this image just on the couch.

my family just crying, crying, crying. And that night I went to bed, my mom came in to tuck me in and I just said, mom, I'm so sad. I don't know what to do. I'm so sad. And she said, well, I pray when I'm sad. Why don't you try to pray to God? And so I love that moment because the first time death enters my world, this image of faith as a

Annalouiza (02:08.04)
Mm.

Christine Jurisich (02:19.835)
practical, personal conversational experience enters my world as well. And our family went to church every Sunday, but this was the first time I was invited to this personal conversation. And when I use the word God, I'm using that with this awareness and openness that everyone is using their own word and their experience of infinite being. How do we find a perfect word for that? We don't, we don't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:23.662)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (02:47.688)
That's right.

Christine Jurisich (02:48.379)
So I use the word God a lot, especially in my retreats. It's the most generalized word, but the invitation to take that wherever you need to take that. So that was a profound moment when I first had death enter my world. The next year I was in fifth grade, a cousin of mine died. That was awful. And then about 10 years ago, another cousin, 24 years old, died in a car accident.

awful and that was a whole new experience having to now I was the mom and now I had to walk with my two kids through that and that was that was so so difficult. And then eight years ago my son I lost my son he was 16 years old just finished his freshman year of high school it's the summer and he died of a brain aneurysm so completely random unexpected.

Annalouiza (03:24.884)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:28.659)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:29.09)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (03:44.574)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (03:48.091)
How do you wrap your head around that?

Annalouiza (03:50.13)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:50.509)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (03:53.275)
I'm grateful that he did not die that night, went to the hospital and then eventually he was in the ICU for 25 days. Very intense 25 days, very dramatic. was in a coma for 11 of those days. mean, just every day was something dramatic. And so death was...

Introduced to me at a young age in different ways, but this was the first time death with PTSD Trauma and all of that that that just opened my world to a whole different type of grief and loss that I and and PTSD and that I I Did not fully understand and I don't know

Annalouiza (04:32.19)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:38.824)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:39.404)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:47.294)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (04:48.239)
how you can without having the experience of it. So that has really, really changed my life in a lot of ways.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:49.516)
Haha.

Annalouiza (04:56.378)
Yes, it's so interesting that you can actually distill the different types of grief that you've experienced. Even the grief of your, it was a cousin, right, when you were young? Like that your mother was experiencing that in her own way, that parent, other parent was. So grief is very like personal to every single one of our.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:58.243)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (05:10.555)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:21.037)
easy

Annalouiza (05:22.874)
our experiences depending on who it is or how it is, right? And so you have had this path of experiencing death along your life. So how has all of these stories, all of these experiences, lived experiences, challenged you and impacted the story of who you are today?

Christine Jurisich (05:47.272)
gosh,

I think I have always been, aside from anything that happened into my life, very intuitive and seeing things in a more mystical, spiritual way and always asking questions. And so I think that has always helped me, except life is...

full of joys and challenges and mysterious. so thankfully it did not rock my world in that way. And I had when I lost my son, I was deep into my ministry, been giving retreats for the past 15, 20 years into this spiritual growth ministry for so long. And so

Annalouiza (06:47.732)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (06:49.549)
It really opened my eyes to this deeper, wider understanding of all that we don't understand. I'm saying, why am I using the word understanding? Yeah, that not be the word to use. To just be, yeah. And so, I mean, I remember, I remember this moment in the hospital during those awful 25 days.

Annalouiza (07:00.66)
The mystery.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:00.672)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Christine Jurisich (07:16.315)
write these online retreats. They're like books. You we have these three year cycle of them. So there's six every fall and spring we offer them and they're like six weeks long. And I don't facilitate them. write them. And so I was checking in on one on my phone from the hospital and I remember reading some of this. was, I think it was my retreat, the journey within where we're going deep within asking, you know, who am I, who was God, you know, these big questions.

And so I'm reading what I had written and I remember thinking, yes, that is so right on. But I knew that was right on in a deeper way. I don't feel like my writing comes from me. I feel like it comes from spirit. so there's a lot of times writing and it's bigger than what I fully understand in the moment, but it makes sense while I'm writing it. And then as I grow, I say, yeah.

Annalouiza (08:01.812)
No, no.

Christine Jurisich (08:12.667)
Okay, I get that. And so it's really helped me provide this wider, deeper space for people in my writing, my retreat facilitating. And I appreciate that I can offer that space in so much bigger way. I mean, I remember laughing a little bit to myself. I mean, in the middle of this tragedy, like, oh, thank God, like, this checks out. I'm experiencing a crisis, and this checks out. you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:14.51)
system.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:36.211)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:37.8)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:41.97)
yeah.

Christine Jurisich (08:42.767)
Just got a laughing a little bit on that, but yeah. So, you know, also I have to say it has opened up the vulnerability with friendships and family members. We experienced a lot with this and my neighbors. have, you know, I'm just really grateful for the relationships that I have in my life that I've had for a long time, but this opened up a deeper space of intimacy and vulnerability.

Annalouiza (08:56.275)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (09:12.321)
in going through this and really, really made me how to learn, have to be more vulnerable. And I thought I was vulnerable and open and honest, but there's just a whole new.

place that I really had to travel to to receive other people's help and love through the grief and that that helps me heal. And so a whole new way of being vulnerable has just given me the gift of really beautiful even deeper more intimate relationships. And I really appreciate that.

Annalouiza (09:33.267)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (09:37.939)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (09:51.25)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:51.822)
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's, we've had, we've met and had several people on the podcast who've lost children and that seems to be one of the most profound, of course, things that happen to people's lives. And in fact, two of our Death Do-La friends have begun a group specifically for that, for anybody who's lost a child, whether through incarceration or a strange, incarceration or estrangement or...

Annalouiza (10:13.874)
Mm-hmm, loss.

Christine Jurisich (10:15.451)
Good, I'm glad to hear that. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:20.846)
illness or death. the reason I think that that has come up so often, well, I mean, that they're doing that work and that I hear about it so often is just the profundity, the incredible sense of just sort of finding what's important, right? Yeah, like everything else can go away because there's only one thing that's important right now. So anyway, yeah, go ahead, Annalisa.

Christine Jurisich (10:41.679)
Right.

Annalouiza (10:48.66)
Yeah, no. I was going to say, you know, I think the value of having a space for people to bear witness to others who have lost children is that just like we can't figure out the most amazing and perfect word for God, the divine, a lot of us can't reach in and share the word to identify the loss and the deep.

loss that we feel when a child is gone. And meeting with people who we could look at each other and it's like, know, I know what that feels like. We don't have to name it like in this very specific way. But so I think that's a, it's really beautiful that you can now offer that as a lived experience for people who you could open it up and say, I know the depth of this loss that you have experienced. So yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:38.988)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (11:43.087)
Yeah, it does to help me listen in a new way because I mean, that's what we do in our retreat with I'm also formed as a spiritual director. mean, it's all about listening is so important. And so I listen in a bigger way because really all of our griefs are so different. And so I never want to sound like

Annalouiza (11:46.856)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:47.341)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:03.074)
Hmm.

Christine Jurisich (12:11.547)
like I'm going to understand someone else's grief, someone, everyone has different values and life experiences prior to the grief. And so different griefs are different for everybody. I was at this one bereavement group and they said, you know, what's the worst grief to have? And I said, your grief. I mean, that is helpful because people can put things on a hierarchy, or, know, or like people don't want to share things with me because I never want that.

Annalouiza (12:14.591)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:23.775)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:36.654)
Right.

Annalouiza (12:39.667)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (12:41.115)
of wall between me and someone else. Like whatever your loss is, as you said, that doula, estrangements, all of those, incarceration, all of those are deep losses and everyone is experiencing grief in different ways. And so, and so it's really about listening, that I listen in a new way and invite others. We have sacred, what we call sacred circles and these are

Annalouiza (12:43.593)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:49.023)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:53.493)
Thank

Christine Jurisich (13:08.763)
contemplative listening sessions once a month. They're on Zoom. We have a couple in person and you don't have to sign up, sign your life away. You can come for one, you can come for all. doesn't matter. We hold them on Tuesday and Saturday once a month. And so we have trained facilitators from all over the country with some outside of the country. And it's about holding. I can invite them to hold in a bigger way.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:18.744)
Hehehe.

Christine Jurisich (13:38.683)
You know, most people won't have, well, I'm saying most people, I mean, gosh, the more I meet so many have tragic losses. So I won't say most people, but none of us can fully understand what each other has to bear. And so as we learn to listen and hold space for each other in a bigger, wider, deeper, non-judgmental way, it's just, it's blessing to be around that.

Annalouiza (13:52.458)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:56.169)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:05.016)
Yeah, so important.

Annalouiza (14:06.921)
Yeah. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:08.334)
Yeah, yeah, we need that. Everybody needs that so much. So that was a great segue into telling us a little bit more about your group and your book, the work you're doing. Basically, what is your work now and how does that, yeah, tell us more about that and how people can become involved if they're interested or how they can learn from it.

Christine Jurisich (14:12.048)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:17.875)
Okay.

Christine Jurisich (14:24.419)
No.

Christine Jurisich (14:27.799)
Mm-hmm. I would love to. So the ministry is called Retreat Reflect Renew. And as you mentioned, it's a mostly online ministry, but I absolutely do in-person retreats as well. But we focus on, well, the mission of the ministry is trying to be there for people who yearn for deepening spirituality and genuine community. And it's

Annalouiza (14:51.507)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (14:54.711)
our topics have to do with personal and spiritual growth because that partnership between psychology and spirituality is so important. The more I know myself, the more I know God, the more I know God, the more I can know myself. It's all related. And so we do retreats such as finding your divine rhythm, looking at the rhythm of your life and balance and looking at boundaries, how that plays into it.

Annalouiza (15:10.153)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (15:23.655)
and grace and gratitude is another one. Listening for the still voice of God, as you mentioned, that one is in October. That's an in-person weekend retreat. I'm here in California. That's in Mercy Center, Auburn, and for the weekend. And then there's also a six-week online retreat version as well. And in that work, it's an online written format. So you're doing it.

Annalouiza (15:31.604)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:46.126)
Thank

Christine Jurisich (15:51.565)
at your own pace, in your own way. You have the material for a year, so you can take as long as you want. And we also, for the six weeks, offer it as a facilitated experience and meet once a week on Zoom. So you can experience that way if you choose. And so many people take them over and over because of the sense of community and that share a safe space to be sharing these types of concepts.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:13.39)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:21.314)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (16:22.107)
So we're looking at what gets in the way of listening, what gets in the way of being present, and how can we become more comfortable with things like silence and solitude, always with the acknowledgement that this is hard for all of us. I do this for a living. I still have to work on becoming comfortable, going deeper in the silence, going deeper in the solitude.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:34.574)
Thanks

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:40.63)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:44.905)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (16:50.555)
And so I tried to also to really make it a space where it's like, OK, we are all on this together. I know this is not perfect. It is, you know, getting in touch with your spirituality. That's a lot. It's not easy to do. I don't want it to be intimidating.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:56.392)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (16:56.797)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:02.868)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:06.242)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. There's a quote, I wish I had it in front of me by Mirabai Starr, one of her books that she says, she's been meditating her whole life. And she says, you know, do you think that it's easy for me? No, it's the same as it's always been. I still have, I still spin up, did I get the dishes done? What does the dog need, you know? And she said, but I still make it a practice. I still try and do it as often as I can for as much as I can.

Annalouiza (17:06.367)
Ha

Annalouiza (17:21.384)
you

Christine Jurisich (17:28.441)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:35.506)
So we're all just bozos on this bus as they used to say.

Annalouiza (17:38.709)
Ha

Christine Jurisich (17:39.287)
It's so true and I appreciate, I really appreciate Mirabai Starr's writing and I love how she does talk with such an approachable down to earth. I'm here doing the work too. And I appreciate all the authors who do that. It opens up a space for me to be more comfortable and not try to feel like I have to.

Annalouiza (17:42.598)
Annalouiza (17:54.197)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:54.988)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:58.915)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:01.887)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (18:06.425)
know everything, do everything, be with me. I'm here as a companion on the journey. I have a passion for writing about it and trying to make sense of all that cannot be made sense of. But I will always be trying.

Annalouiza (18:09.833)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:13.646)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:17.518)
Right.

Annalouiza (18:18.581)
Yes. Yeah. It is our work.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:21.25)
Yeah, that's our work. Try to make sense. And loving and being in the space of we really don't know and never will. Yeah, which is fine.

Annalouiza (18:29.119)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (18:29.411)
Right, right. Yeah, I mean, we have to really have to be comfortable with that uncomfortable feeling and sense that we are all just imperfect people trying to make sense of a world that has so much suffering and violence and so much divisiveness and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:38.092)
Yeah, yeah, that's face.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:47.214)
you

Christine Jurisich (18:56.739)
It just is, it's a backdrop to anything going on in your personal life. And so to try to make sense of that, I think you need to have something, a time to stop, pause. I I love the name of the ministry, retreat, reflect, renew. I mean, that is, that is the intent to pause, take a step back from what you're, you're doing and the chatter and all of that, and really take a look at self-acceptance, letting go.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:00.643)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (19:25.517)
And really getting closer to a God of mercy that has not always been presented everywhere. And so that opens the door to more healing, more growth within yourself, with other people, your day-to-day life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:35.662)
Yeah, so true.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:48.236)
Yeah, yeah. The first words of almost every chapter or of the Quran are, rakhma and rahim, which is mercy and compassion. And so it's emphasized and of course it's emphasized in the Christian religion and Jewish religion. Probably all of them in some way that sense that there's that sense. Yeah, that's...

Annalouiza (19:49.482)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:58.624)
passion.

Annalouiza (20:04.501)
you

Ahizma, do no harm.

Christine Jurisich (20:09.913)
Yes, there's a threat of mercy in all the religions. We absolutely are united in that. Absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:13.389)
Yeah.

That's such an incredible important thing for us to remember as we're struggling for ourselves, compassion and mercy for ourselves.

Christine Jurisich (20:22.553)
Right, right.

Annalouiza (20:23.106)
Yeah... Yeah...

Christine Jurisich (20:27.203)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:29.208)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:29.429)
When I really love, I know we're talking about this as a, you know, we're all just spiritual beings on a spiritual journey and we're all doing the best we can. And we're here to talk about death and dying. And, you know, I was just thinking, you know, if people had more compassion for themselves about their, around their discomfort to talk about death, like, you know,

of families who want to like hold that space and it's really uncomfortable and to talk about the grief and it's really uncomfortable. again, it's like, we do need to meet ourselves and others with compassion and mercy for every little thing that we have to do in this world because life is constantly, you know, it's going on in the backdrop. It was very difficult. anyhow, I was just thinking about that. Yes, because we need more compassion.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:05.836)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:12.493)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:19.874)
Yeah, that's one. That's one of the big ones.

Christine Jurisich (21:21.179)
No, it is so true. It's so true. I hear so much from people grieving. I, and they start the sentence with I should, you know, and, and, and I mean, most people, a lot of people in the retreats, not even just grieving people, but I should, I want to, I need to. And on top of that, there are a lot of people who have not had an intimate experience of death and

Annalouiza (21:29.289)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:31.832)
Mm.

Annalouiza (21:42.718)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:46.581)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (21:51.885)
expect it to be a linear process. And so there can be those shoulds placed on others too. And that is, I mean, I think I placed some on myself, not because of other people placing them on me, but just wanting to be strong for my husband and my daughter and really guiding them through the healing process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:54.766)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:00.558)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (22:21.229)
And so I think anytime we are starting a sentence with I should or putting timelines on our grief, that is just a little, that should be just a little wake up call, wait, let me just be where I am and be in this my own pace. And what's been really interesting for me to learn as I experience grief, I'm now at eight years out and you know, I think

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:27.246)
See

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:35.266)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (22:38.346)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (22:51.075)
A lot of people expect you to feel better after a year and expect it to kind of be a linear process. I don't know if that's, you know, I don't mean to be unfair to people saying, I don't know if people, know, but I think a lot of people do expect that. And,

Annalouiza (22:57.865)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:08.453)
That's a hopeful assumption.

Christine Jurisich (23:10.523)
Right. You're right. It's a hopeful assumption. And I can't believe how much it's not a linear process. And I'm sure I was told that before, but the first year is not even anything. I mean, it's just like trying to survive. My brain hasn't even begun to register. people are like, you're so strong. You're so strong. I I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:10.882)
Yeah, that's

Annalouiza (23:20.714)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:28.937)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Registering. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:33.827)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (23:39.321)
I was not strong. was just, you know, whatever. I don't know what I was just living off of God's grace. And so it's been really interesting to see how every single year has been a whole different experience to work through, to let go, to learn. And that's just been very interesting. And I don't see that ending ever, ever. I mean, I do feel like my family.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:42.419)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:43.005)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:05.365)
right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:05.486)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (24:08.57)
I'm really grateful. My husband and my daughter and I, my daughter's 25. We all, we're in a good place and I'm so grateful for that. But, and we share lots of joy and laughter and new life. But, you know, that sits along. Oh, I wish Peter were here. Peter would be laughing about this or, you know.

Annalouiza (24:22.453)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:30.879)
Got the grief. Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (24:35.597)
all those other things too, or fears that come up that are faster to come up because we've experienced the worst case scenario. So yeah, I think that has been the biggest learning, understanding of just every year is different and let, I think what I tell people is that you have a whole lifetime to grieve. if people feel guilty when they're having fun or whatever, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. You have a whole lifetime.

Annalouiza (24:41.247)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:44.344)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:51.593)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:56.637)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:04.883)
Yes. Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (25:05.019)
for it to be whatever it's supposed to be. If there's a moment where you're feeling good, just feel it and be in it and embrace it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:05.154)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:10.446)
Treasure that, Yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (25:10.845)
Yeah, yeah. You know, it kind of makes me as you're saying this, it's so you're so fun to talk to because you your language is like making my brain percolate with a lot of thoughts. But, you know, I was just thinking how linear linear outality, if that's such a word, is almost a human construct. Right. I mean, we assume that time is linear, but there's also, you know, science who says it's not linear. There's

Christine Jurisich (25:18.835)
good, you're fun to talk to too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:18.926)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:24.578)
Ha

Annalouiza (25:39.766)
It's all kinds of ways. And we enter into life, we grow up, and we think that time is linear. Experiences are just experience, like rites of passage. You go through these times, and it's all on this one continuum. But what I realized with both forgiveness and possibly grief that was in my head, it's all spiral. And so I remember being at a retreat once where we were, it was all about forgiveness. And he said, at the beginning,

is this big space of anger and disappointment and rage or whatever you're experiencing it. And as you forgive, you're starting on this path. And he's like, and then you're surprised that like a year later, something makes you remember it and it flares up again. And it's, and you feel the same anger, disappointment, rage. And we are, you know, we say, why have I not done my work and forgiven? And, or

Why have I not gotten past this grief? And what he said was like, you know, as you move past it, I'm assuming that you're not going to sit there that long and you'll be going back out into this like spiral space. But as the years, you know, you traverse these this time, all the times that you are taking back into that moment, it will be smaller and smaller and smaller. And so that's how grief kind of doesn't necessarily disappear. It just

dissipate slowly but surely and it probably will never go away as long as we live but we'll still be experiencing it and we meet it with their new selves. We meet it with new memories and joys and heart sickness, right? And so I'm just thinking about that. Like let's like be very clear. You know, this isn't like Kubler-Ross's like five or seven stages of grief and you get it done and it's over forever. It is a perpetual

Christine Jurisich (27:06.853)
Right.

Christine Jurisich (27:18.256)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:22.723)
Ha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:29.432)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:32.293)
know, ebb and flow forever and ever.

Christine Jurisich (27:33.603)
Right, it's so true. I don't think that those stages of grief, the Kubler-Ross stages of grief were ever intended to be a linear process. They just were taken that way. I think now everyone tries to educate people that it is exactly what you said. It is just a spiral. what rose in me when I heard you is I love

Annalouiza (27:45.301)
Right, they weren't. Yes. Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:45.422)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:54.633)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (28:02.787)
Sister Joan Chidister, author of several books, Benedictine Spirituality, and she says, hope is made of memories. And so when I was listening to you, I thought, yes, that is where we find hope, is to know I've had that anger, I've had that darkness before, and I moved through it to the other side. And I will do that again. I've been able to get out of bed before.

Annalouiza (28:12.659)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:13.003)
you

Annalouiza (28:22.505)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:27.544)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:31.63)
Ss-ss-ss-s-s-s-s

Annalouiza (28:31.667)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (28:31.833)
I'll be able to get out of bed again. I've experienced joy and then sadness and then joy and then sadness. So just know like hope is made of memories and you just remember that there have been people in the past that have helped you through or you've helped yourself through or faith or whatever it is that, and I think all of life, whether you've experienced grief or not, having that sense of everything is cyclical.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:38.446)
Haha.

Annalouiza (28:41.461)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:59.571)
Right, right.

Christine Jurisich (29:00.559)
everything we're going on in the world is cyclical.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:00.92)
Right.

Annalouiza (29:03.059)
Yeah, I just want interrupt you here. And when I first see if you could see this, but when you first got on and you said a few things, I just started writing a bunch of hearts. And this is and it was I was like, so there you're like the little packets of memories and a little and that's for our hope wise. I like I like did that and I put it to the side. I was like, that's interesting. I've never.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:03.32)
Yeah, that's...

Christine Jurisich (29:11.131)
Aww, I love it.

Christine Jurisich (29:16.875)
Yes. I love that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:18.232)
haha

Okay, so great. Yeah, that's so great. Thank you. That's funny. That's great. I see. Where are we here? Okay. I guess we're only like halfway through. We should probably move right along here.

Annalouiza (29:36.853)
Let's do, yes. So you can ask, like specifically you're a retreat person, right? And so I guess my question to you was what are your biggest challenges around this work?

Christine Jurisich (29:52.474)
gosh,

What has been the biggest challenge recently is just trying to balance, I am this creative person and the pastoral spirit in me, the writer in me, the creator in me that is creating, creating, And then the reality of a ministry that's a nonprofit and I'm also having to wear the executive director hat and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:06.604)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (30:23.143)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (30:25.403)
I've had to put a lot of attention onto that executive director hat recently, because I was just creating, creating, creating, and we needed to get things a little more efficient, organized. We have a more expanded leadership team and all of that. And so going back and forth between the practical end of things that have to be done, and especially with these online retreats, they're on a learning platform. There's a lot of details behind the scenes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:32.301)
Excuse me.

Annalouiza (30:32.725)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (30:45.448)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (30:50.377)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (30:53.721)
So that has just been a practical, just enough time in the day. And I have so many more books in me. I have so much more I wanna write. I have so much I wanna do and enough time in the day because it is quiet work. It takes hours and hours of quiet work to write and create.

Annalouiza (31:02.677)
You

Annalouiza (31:16.255)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:16.462)
Yeah, yeah.

Christine Jurisich (31:16.749)
So there's that, just, you know, in a practical level day to day. And then as far as the retreat ministry overall, I've been in retreat ministry now for, you know, almost 20 years. And I mean, the reality is it's tough. There are a lot of retreat centers closing, which breaks my heart. And so that is sad to see, I think. And there has to be a real awareness of trauma.

that is around and having to be educated, aware, equipped because gosh, people are just dealing with a lot, a lot. Yeah. So that is a deeper awareness that is needed. And then I'll say the challenge of

Annalouiza (31:46.709)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (32:14.383)
you know, balancing it all out, wanting to live the life that I'm inviting others to live to. You know, that's, I'm having enough time with friends and family and being present and just being present to silence and stillness and then also being present to writing about silence and stillness. So.

Annalouiza (32:16.351)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:20.686)
season.

Annalouiza (32:20.969)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:33.507)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:34.704)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:38.132)
Right. yeah.

Annalouiza (32:38.365)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (32:41.263)
Those I would say are all the challenges, but I mean, really, I just, can't believe how grateful I am to be in this work. I am passionate about it. I get to meet people from all over the world who want to come and just reflect and share. I mean, always with the option to not share. We don't force anyone to share. It's just a very welcoming, non-judgmental environment.

Annalouiza (32:54.815)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:03.416)
season.

Christine Jurisich (33:07.707)
And to just or or people just take these retreats on their own too and and don't partake it in the sharing also But seeing people there are a lot of people who come back to each retreat each sacred circle And so this community has formed and people call retreat reflect renew their spiritual home and that is just It is just amazing to be a part of that and I say just a part even though I founded the ministry Every person who was a part of it

Annalouiza (33:11.455)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (33:19.101)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (33:24.563)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:24.942)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (33:30.133)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:30.658)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:33.226)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (33:36.453)
facilitators, leaders, participants, they all just bring this beautiful spirit. And I'm just so grateful to be with it, in it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:47.81)
Yeah, yeah. You kind of touched on this a bit and I'd like to hear if there's any specific tools you have for resourcing yourself when you're dealing, like you said, trying to find balance. what do you use to find the balance when you need it? What kind of tools do you have?

Annalouiza (33:55.86)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (33:56.633)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (34:07.705)
Yeah, that is such a good question. And it is different moment to moment, I to say. I mean, one thing, you the first thing that comes to mind is that I'm very boundaried with my time. And I mean, I say that with an awareness of the privilege that I'm running this ministry and that allows me to be able to be. But obviously, there are deadlines that have to get done. I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:13.262)
Right.

Annalouiza (34:19.733)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (34:37.531)
I have a pretty strong boundary that I usually don't have meetings until the afternoon. I really have that morning time to be my writing, creating, focus time. And so really knowing when I need to step back and I need a few days that I need to be going back in, slowing down. So there are deadlines that have to happen. And then there are self-imposed deadlines that don't have to happen.

Annalouiza (34:42.325)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:53.525)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:04.152)
He

Christine Jurisich (35:04.589)
And I've really grown into seeing the difference, which has been really helpful to see the difference, lowering expectations and being okay with that and knowing, especially it is actually been, you know, kind of a gift that I have this trauma that I have to deal with in PTSD. I get too, if things are way too busy and stressful for me, it's not good for my nervous system.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:07.65)
Yeah, yeah, that's what should.

Annalouiza (35:12.735)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:12.898)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:29.641)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (35:34.317)
And so, I mean, that's less so as the years go on. And I've worked through a lot of that trauma, thank God, for good therapy out there for that. But I have to live, I have to be in tune with balance for my health now. I really, and mentally, so that is helpful. Each month in the ministry, we have a theme that we're reflecting on.

Annalouiza (35:45.141)
You

Annalouiza (35:51.839)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:53.666)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (36:03.035)
This month it is resting in God's love. And I start out the reflection saying, you know, Netflix, a bag of cheese, popcorn and the couch. That is how I used to think of resting. I mean, don't get me wrong, that is resting too sometimes for me now. But really as I go deeper into seeing resting in a bigger way, I really try to be attentive to

Annalouiza (36:05.173)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:11.51)
Hahaha.

Christine Jurisich (36:31.161)
where I'm at and what I need. And so resting might be inviting friends and family over and me cooking for them. I love having people over. You know, another day cooking many days may sound like the last thing I want to do and resting may be just doing nothing and being on the couch. Or maybe resting is needing to be kind to myself and lower expectations. And so there are a lot of different ways that

Annalouiza (36:33.395)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (36:40.03)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (36:47.157)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:47.244)
haha

Annalouiza (36:51.125)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (36:56.181)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (36:59.291)
I define resting now more expanded ways and sometimes they're active. Sometimes they're just in the past few years started getting into planting vegetables and flowers and that has just given me so much joy and that that's resting. sometimes and sometimes it's not so really it's moment to moment. It's a different answer.

Annalouiza (37:05.084)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:12.248)
Soon.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:15.64)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:23.662)
Yeah, yeah, that's the right answer. That's perfect. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's each moment, one moment at a time, right? Let's see. I think, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Annalouiza (37:24.532)
That's right.

Christine Jurisich (37:30.725)
Right.

Annalouiza (37:31.069)
Yes. So the last one. So we always like to finish up with offering a space for our guests to tell us what do they wish we had asked? What would you like to share that wasn't actually talked about today?

Christine Jurisich (37:51.301)
You know, I think one thing that has really helped me in my grief is ritual. And I use rituals a lot in my retreats, both in person and online. I'm inviting people to rituals. A ritual can be as simple as lighting a candle.

Annalouiza (37:59.668)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (38:11.669)
That's right.

Christine Jurisich (38:12.291)
It can be as simple as writing something on a post-it note and then tearing it up into pieces and then throwing it as hard as you can into the garbage can to release anger. There are so many different things. Rituals really, they were a lifeline for me, especially in the very beginning. I had a couple of thank you dinners with friends who were really just there for me in family in such big.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:20.034)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (38:20.905)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (38:32.447)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (38:42.235)
big ways during those 25 days. I had them over, I did a prayer, I went to each one, gave them an angel with a gratitude on it. Rituals have been really, really helpful for me and really crying as a form of prayer, I would include as one of those rituals. I've written a lot about tears as prayer on my website.

Annalouiza (39:03.059)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:03.405)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:08.137)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (39:11.579)
And is my next book, really, Tears as Prayer, because it is a beautiful ritual that is prayer in itself, and that it brings you into that naked, raw, humble, surrendered space where you are letting, you are releasing all of those feelings, emotions, thoughts that you may not even be able to name, and you're handing it over to

Annalouiza (39:14.389)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:15.362)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:21.41)
Yes.

Annalouiza (39:25.663)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:38.19)
Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (39:41.637)
God or spirit or wherever you're wanting to hand it over. you all, it means you don't need to use words. Your prayer can just be that deep, deep release of crying or just anything using your body in any way for a ritual, any kind of movement, motion, it helps release and get things out of your, out of your body.

Annalouiza (39:50.46)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (39:54.473)
Release.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:55.98)
Release, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (40:02.185)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:02.956)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:07.021)
Yeah.

That's so important. So glad you said that. Richard, have you seen Richard Drawer's new book, The Tears of Things?

Annalouiza (40:10.633)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (40:15.151)
Yes, I am slowly reading it slowly, slowly so I can just devour every word. It is.

Annalouiza (40:18.648)
Do I have this one?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:22.414)
I know it's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful. I keep coming back to it when I'm talking to people like that whole.

Annalouiza (40:23.221)
you

Christine Jurisich (40:28.409)
And it's helpful because he talks about tears. You need something to get you through the anger, to get to the other side of the anger or the deep whatever feeling you're feeling. You need something to get you over to the other side. And his work is beautiful that it helps people get to the other side of that and to find love in that. so, yeah, I mean, it is absolutely.

Annalouiza (40:35.401)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:36.162)
Yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (40:42.355)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:42.476)
Yeah, exactly. And doing that whole arc. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (40:57.371)
Tears This Prayer is a beautiful movement to get you to the other side of anger. Maybe not immediately. This is not a quick miracle pill, but it's a process that absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And reading Richard Rohr's book is definitely part of that process too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:03.67)
Yeah, it can take time, but ritual, like you said, yeah.

Annalouiza (41:15.732)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:16.746)
Yeah well and you actually sent us a poem I think that you wrote that tears is contemplative prayer. Do you want to read that for us as we finish up here?

Annalouiza (41:22.484)
Mmm.

Christine Jurisich (41:22.649)
Yes.

I would love to. Yes, and contemplation for people who aren't really familiar with that. It's, you know, we see prayer so much as something we're doing, something we're saying. And so a contemplative prayer would be without words, being in the abstract and letting prayer be a sense of being.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:40.984)
See

Annalouiza (41:49.013)
That's right.

Christine Jurisich (41:55.063)
instead of doing. So when we cry and we let tears be our prayer, we're really entering into that space of being and surrender and we don't have to do and just open ourselves up to letting spirit do the work of the healing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:55.608)
Yeah

Annalouiza (41:55.701)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ugh. I love that.

Annalouiza (42:06.549)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:06.712)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:16.246)
Yeah, whatever that surrender might be look like for people. Yeah.

Christine Jurisich (42:18.331)
Right, exactly, exactly. All right, so for people listening to this, I would invite them to just get into a rhythm of breathing in and out.

just trying to connect in that surrender, connect in the rhythm of inhale and exhale.

Christine Jurisich (42:50.373)
tears as contemplative prayer.

Inhale the invitation to a holy cry.

Exhale to a cleansing of the spirit.

Christine Jurisich (43:07.983)
Breathe in the connection to your ancestors cries.

Breathe out your tears in solidarity with a suffering world.

This is your act of sacred surrender. The releasing of pain flowing out from your entire body and letting it go.

Christine Jurisich (43:43.781)
This is your mystical dialogue with the divine.

the washing in holy water and cleansing in living water.

Christine Jurisich (44:01.365)
One last inhale as you allow for blessing and restoration.

Let your tears be a river whose streams may glad the city of God. From Psalms 46.4.

One last exhale as you invite your tears from the depths of your soul to rise as a spring of water gushing up to new life.

Christine Jurisich (44:39.385)
Amen.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:40.814)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (44:42.261)
Thank you so much for that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:44.588)
Yeah, thank you. Beautiful.

Christine Jurisich (44:46.713)
Thank you for letting me share it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:50.552)
Yeah, well gosh, it's been, again, we're so pleased to spent this time with you and really appreciate you. I will turn off the recording and we're gonna hang out a minute or two here to see if it has uploaded.

Annalouiza (44:53.896)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Jurisich (45:02.427)
Thank you so much.