How Do You Cope With Loss with Chrystal Pennic

You can view this as a video on YouTube! We encourage you to do so and to like and subscribe to our channel. And it really helps our statistics if you listen all the way to the end, where we include a bonus conversation!

In this episode of End of Life Conversations, hosts Rev Annalouiza and Rev Wakil David Matthews engage with Chrystal Pennic, a grief therapist and podcast host. They explore the profound impact of sibling loss, the challenges faced by grief workers, and the importance of self-care and community support in navigating grief. Crystal shares her personal journey with grief, the significance of her podcast, The Grip Spot, and the necessity of accessible mental health services for those in mourning. The conversation highlights the importance of compassion, understanding, and finding joy in life despite the pain of loss.

Transcript

Annalouiza (01:12.078)
All right, welcome back everybody. Welcome back everyone to End of Life Conversations. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Mendadis here in sacred space with Crystal Pennick, who is also known as Little Sister Chris and your grief therapist on her podcast. She is a native of Nashville and a graduate of both the University of Memphis and Treveca Nazarene University.

Crystal has a long history in the mental health field dating back to 2005. She began her work in a group home setting with at-risk youth and has since served in various roles, including community-based mental health, school-based therapy, and as a behavioral health consultant in a medical clinic. Her passion for grief, loss, and bereavement deepened during her role as a therapist and handle with care coordinator with the Metro Nashville Police Department. She also trained both civilian and sworn employees on the symptoms of trauma that is grief to help mitigate re-traumatizing youth in schools and the wider community. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:24.245)
Wow, so cool. That's such good stuff. Thank you. It's so good you could join us today. I am Reverend Wakil David Matthews and I'm really glad to welcome Crystal. She also speaks openly about her own sibling grief on her podcast, The Grip Spot, which stands for Grieve in Peace, while picking up the pieces. On the podcast, she says light on the marathon journey of grief which many of us are familiar with. She's the owner and founder of the Grief Center, a practice offering both in-person and telehealth services. The center reflects her lifelong mission to walk with grieving individuals and communities as they navigate loss, healing, and hope. And all of this will be in our podcast notes so you can reach out to her later. So thank you again, Crystal. Yeah, so cool.

Annalouiza (03:12.078)
Mmm.

Welcome.

Christal Pennic (03:16.41)
Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:18.409)
We like to begin and just get a feel for when people first became aware of death. Can you tell us a little bit about that in your life?

Christal Pennic (03:25.727)
Yes, yes. First, death outside of watching Disney and trying to figure out when all dogs go to heaven. That was my first experience with a dog grief. So that was my very first Disney experience and trying to understand death because I can remember that like yesterday and crying about it.

Annalouiza (03:48.076)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:48.159)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:50.776)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (03:51.691)
Well, I remember that, but my grandmother really started it off, and her mother, around the same time. So around the early 90s is when I started to notice the absoluteness of grief and absoluteness of death with my dad's mom and my dad's grandmother.

Annalouiza (04:07.554)
Hmm.

Christal Pennic (04:12.695)
And from that time, it was a string of deaths. It's like my dad's side of the family, all the sisters just decided to just die together. So like, you're to, I'm going to. So I just decided to go together. So that was, yeah, that was the beginning.

Annalouiza (04:24.014)
Annalouiza (04:29.044)
I fell man Luis did.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:29.801)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:35.603)
Okay, wow, fascinating. Yeah, that's really amazing that that would have happened in that way. so sort of thank you for sharing that.

Annalouiza (04:44.8)
Yeah, so Disney was the formative moment of recognizing that something has happened. And then the sisters, hand in hand, decided to leave this plane. And in between your whole life, how has death impacted the story of who you've become and how you're serving in community today?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:49.077)
haha

Christal Pennic (04:59.113)
Yeah!

Christal Pennic (05:09.107)
Yes. So the death that really shifted my entire, I tell everybody my entire DNA was the death of my brother. My brother was diagnosed with leukemia as a 17 year old. It was September 13th, 1996 when he was diagnosed. I remember it like it was yesterday. That was also the day that we heard Tupac had died and my brother was a huge Tupac fan and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:17.311)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (05:39.007)
We just didn't understand what was going on when he was diagnosed with cancer. Oncology was not something that we knew was in our vernacular or anything. That day, everything turned dark. Everything turned September still feels like a shift in the atmosphere and we're about to come in September. And I just feel like everything changes in September. So he...

Annalouiza (05:41.772)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (05:48.728)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (05:52.386)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:00.994)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:05.614)
Hmm.

Christal Pennic (06:07.947)
Uh, uh, ALL, which is the, form of leukemia is aggressive and he was diagnosed in September and then died April the 10th of 1997, just less than 30 days from his 18th birthday. He had just turned 18 on March 18th and passed on April the 10th. Um, and we watched him just suffer and just having.

a conversation with a 17 and then turned 18 year old, having conversation with a young man as a 14 year old, because I was younger sister, I was a little sister, and having a conversation with him about being tired. And my brother having that conversation with my dad too, I am tired. And my dad resonated with that because the sisters, they left out,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:47.103)
Well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:03.956)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:04.044)
Right.

Christal Pennic (07:06.789)
And when my grandmother left out, there's something they always want. They said, I am tired. I want to go home. And it wasn't like we knew, we knew it wasn't the location where we live. It was a different home. So that was the conversation my brother would start having with myself and my

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:13.375)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:19.541)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:25.703)
Yeah, wow. That's intense. and tell us more about where that has led you, the work you're doing now.

Annalouiza (07:28.558)
Wow

Christal Pennic (07:35.787)
Yeah. So like in the bio, I am the owner of the grief center here in Nashville, Tennessee. And it was a journey to get here. So 1997 was a long way away, you know, and sometimes it does feel like it was yesterday and just had 28 years of his passing. I was 14. I am now 43. And in that time of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:48.319)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:51.797)
You

Annalouiza (07:55.231)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (08:05.547)
adjusting to childhood bereavement, which I did not know put me at risk of so many things like mental health, disability, substance use and abuse, suicide. It put me in all of those risk factors. I was a young griever in a big high school. 2,200 students was in this high school. And I remember having a conversation one time with a guidance counselor.

And she told me with my grades that I was not going to graduate from high school. So I was struggling through geometry. had algebra was next. I was going to struggle through that. I had Latin. I don't know why I decided to do Latin. And so I was a solid, maybe D student, solid D, just grieving. And it broke my heart when she told me that I was going to graduate. So from that era,

Annalouiza (08:45.631)
Ha!

Christal Pennic (09:02.249)
did end up graduating. I graduated with my class and then I was accepted into college in the college that I wanted to go to and they accepted me and went to college. I took an extra year. I was there for five years, graduated and then decided to work in the field. know exactly where I wanted to land. I know I worked with youth and I loved working with youth and then grad school happened and graduated from grad school.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:10.399)
All right.

Christal Pennic (09:30.827)
and moved to a different state, started working in school based, really loved it, decided to get licensed and was licensed right in 2020, right as the pandemic got my license in the mail. It's like good timing. So grief work as a therapist, I ran from that work. It did make me very tired. At one point, my dad and I and my mom started to

Annalouiza (09:41.61)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:42.154)
Ha.

Ha

Annalouiza (09:54.744)
Mmm.

Christal Pennic (09:58.559)
We did a grief share group with our church and I was able to do it, but at the same time, I didn't really want to do it. But it wasn't until I worked with Metro Nashville Police Department and I was working with victims of crime and young victims of crime and families of crime where I saw, you know what, it's time to stop running from this work. It's also to work and get into theater. So I...

Annalouiza (10:01.838)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (10:07.554)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:13.653)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (10:22.686)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Christal Pennic (10:27.605)
therapy, was also working with young victims. And that's where it like, this is the niche that was chosen for me. I didn't choose it. It chose me. So that's where I am today after having my own running and my own denial, my own pains and still continue to have those pains in different levels of pain and still. So that's what landed me right where I am today at the grief center.

Annalouiza (10:37.101)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:37.267)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:42.325)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (10:47.125)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (10:55.702)
well, first, I want to just say I want to honor your your your sacred journey because yes, you were chosen and you were trained in in real life. And that's what makes you really like potent for all those kids out there who you're in, because it's a lived experience. So I I bow down to you in your heart.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:56.661)
Wow.

Christal Pennic (11:04.234)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:04.33)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:14.441)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:20.053)
Same, Yeah. Yeah. I'd actually like to hear a little bit more if you could about the, like how does that, what does that look like in a day to day working with people in that way?

Christal Pennic (11:20.875)
Thank you so much. Thanks. Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:22.698)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:33.933)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (11:34.441)
Yes, yes, I love working with people in grief. And right before this call, I had a client who lost a son and just sitting with someone not having the answers because we're not going to have the answer. It's very acute. It just happened. So it's very acute. And I just need to know, did you eat today? I want to know if you drank water today because what

Annalouiza (11:45.422)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (11:51.566)
That's right.

Annalouiza (11:58.351)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:01.077)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (12:02.217)
What we see is in these moments is you don't want to eat anything and you don't want to drink anything. Do you have supports? You have people around you because one thing we don't want to happen is you get in the car and have an accident or have an incident. And one thing we, another thing we don't want to see is you going into the hospital because you're dehydrated or malnourished or didn't take your medicine. You're not going to think of it. You're not.

Annalouiza (12:26.094)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:28.97)
you

Christal Pennic (12:29.483)
foggy of it, the fogginess of it, the shock of it, that you're not going to think about nourishing yourself. You just are in a shell. And when you're in war, it happens you're in a shell of yourself. And all of those things about nurturing ourselves will not come to us, sometimes for a long time, at least once, where you'd be like, oh, I haven't felt hungry in six months because I've been in a shell of myself.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:37.939)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:38.55)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:48.233)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:48.462)
That's right.

Annalouiza (12:53.695)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:56.565)
Mm.

Annalouiza (12:56.745)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (12:57.799)
In brain science, I'm really nerd out on brain science and trauma. And basically that is meant for you, so it won't kill you. Your functions are just to go in autopilot. Your brain is not thinking like it normally would. That's why memory loss is huge in grief. And it's really to protect your body, because we're in freeze.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:06.997)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:07.116)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:14.04)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:16.361)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:22.42)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:22.711)
Hmm.

Christal Pennic (13:24.939)
It's gone through a traumatic event. So we're in freeze in order to get through what we need to get through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:31.445)
So yeah, it makes so much sense,

All right. Somebody's ringing. Who's ringing.

Christal Pennic (13:40.937)
This time, I want it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:43.765)
Is that yours?

All right, whatever it was, it's gone now. All right, another, Sam, you're gonna be working hard on this one. All right, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that framing of it, like being in a shell, because we've all experienced it, many of audience members probably have experienced that too, that sense when somebody dies and it's close to you and.

Christal Pennic (13:48.661)
Woo hoo!

Christal Pennic (13:55.625)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:15.293)
It's like, just feels like nothing makes sense anymore. Like, right? You're looking around and you can't figure out why people are still acting normal. Yeah. And, and yourself, like you said, you've, you've, you're kind of surrounded by this protective shell that says, just take, you know, just take the next step really. Right. Yeah. So what a wonderful, what a wonderful support and, work that you're doing to help those folks.

Christal Pennic (14:18.027)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (14:23.499)
Christal Pennic (14:41.451)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (14:41.47)
Mm hmm. So by the way, did you hear that? I'm so sorry. My phone was connected. Sorry. anyhow, so I really do appreciate that too, that you're, you're helping out bear witness to all these people who are going through this intense grief moment. So what do you find are really big challenges for you as you do your work?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:46.751)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:50.485)
Thanks

Christal Pennic (15:09.355)
The challenges in this grief world can be vast and not just the grief stuff. It's more like now that I'm an employer, it's who is appropriate to sit with people in grief. And then that means that my therapists are going to have to tackle their own fears and their own comfortable

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:11.721)
Haha.

Annalouiza (15:12.11)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:16.846)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:24.11)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:25.109)
Mmm.

Christal Pennic (15:34.571)
spaces or uncomfortable spaces. Are you equipped to even do traumatic grief? Those type things. So on top of trying to make sure that insurance handles insurance pays because the work that I do, I can see others that do the same work, but they're private pay, right? So I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:42.228)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:42.382)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:49.495)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:59.2)
Mm.

Christal Pennic (15:59.531)
I have majority insurance, which a lot of clinicians do not accept insurance anymore, but I want to be able to be accessible, right? Because I didn't have a therapist. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't have a therapist until I was good in my late thirties, from 14 to 38 years old. So I would have benefited from having the access and the knowledge that it exists. All right. So being able to first.

Annalouiza (15:59.991)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:07.316)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:07.464)
Mm-hmm, that's right.

Annalouiza (16:16.545)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:23.65)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (16:28.553)
be aware and teach people about their own grief here in the center and be ready for anything that comes in these walls. Are you ready for people who will sit in your office and wail? Will you give them that space? Or will you be ready for a young person that comes in and they look so nonchalant or they're angry? Are you able to handle the anger in this?

Annalouiza (16:38.189)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:43.465)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (16:55.051)
or the nonchalant team that's like, I don't know, I don't know. I feel like talking. Are you gonna be able to handle those? Or someone who just laughs through everything and in their process, and it looks like laughter or it seems like humor, but deep down, they're just hiding and masking. Can you get down to the deeper levels of that? So I have to do a lot of evaluating with who I'm bringing in.

Annalouiza (16:59.342)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:08.044)
Right.

Annalouiza (17:19.992)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (17:24.157)
It's harder to try to get licensed therapists because they can do gig economies, other places. They can just stay at home and do all the things versus being in person. But I think those are the challenges and nuances I experienced on the admin more side and training therapist than the grief itself. But it's a continuous learning journey.

Annalouiza (17:37.518)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:44.916)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:48.586)
Yeah, wow, what a great work. Yeah, I wish we had a, need about 10 more of you. Just there, just in the South. Now we need in every area. That's great. That's wonderful work. And yeah, I know we were just, we've actually just been talking a little bit about the difference between a three-dimensional one-on-one connection with somebody and this, you know, the

Annalouiza (17:49.696)
Wow, yeah.

Christal Pennic (17:54.653)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:56.342)
And like, yeah.

Annalouiza (18:01.847)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:18.121)
beauties and the curse of technology where we can also be two dimensional and have this great communication, but it's not the same as actually being in person. So that's a really wonderful model that you're doing there. So as you're looking at all of this, as you're dealing yourself and of course working with grief and loss on a daily basis, is there anything that frightens you about the end of life?

Christal Pennic (18:33.739)
Thank you.

Christal Pennic (18:48.299)
I think what still as in this started, you know, watching my brother, I am heavy, heavy spiritual in the South, Christianity. And what I found is we talk a lot about death in songs, getting prepared for death, being right with the Lord for death and all of that. But we still have unanswered questions.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:54.249)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:15.657)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (19:15.904)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (19:16.445)
know what that looks like. It's a control thing too. I can't control when it's going to happen. So I think as far as the fear is concerned, just what happens immediately after? What does that look like? And I'm a 90s kid, right? So one of the songs that I listened to back in the 90s was Alanis Morissette when she was like thinking about

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:21.588)
Right.

Christal Pennic (19:40.127)
don't think about death as it being over at the end. And I was like, OK, well, I know that. But what does it look like? I want to know. I want to know. So I believe it's more like the fear of not knowing. And then I am a surviving sibling again. And I have two parents. I have parents that are aging. And with the fear comes is when is it that I'm going lose them too?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:08.265)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (20:09.673)
That is a big fear of mine and as my only sibling, it's like, then doing it alone. That is a fear in death, doing this life alone when I have two parents and that's my, that's family, right? And my family just continuing to change in that way.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:16.756)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:16.929)
Yes.

Annalouiza (20:22.51)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:26.591)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:31.583)
Sure, yeah, that makes sense.

Annalouiza (20:31.825)
Hmm. Hmm. It does. It's well, I was going to speak to your first fear about not knowing what happens. You know, I walk you and I met at seminary. even back then we had these kind of conversations, but I was like, just living in the mystery. You know, like, like, it's just, I don't know. I'm, I am excited for, you know, unfortunately for my kids with it. Uh, but it is a very real, uh, fear that I hadn't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:54.921)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (21:01.234)
I mean, I think about it, but I don't think of it much as having to be a child to parents who are aging, who at some point I will also have to do the heavy lifting of caring for them at the end of life. So that is very true and yeah, something to think about.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:15.125)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:19.369)
Yeah, I could certainly see that. Yeah, I mean, even in my case, when my parents died, my brothers were still here, but they were pretty much checked out. They were like the person you mentioned that just kind of, you I'm not going to think about this. And so it really was almost like being a single, you know, one person because it was really all up to me to deal with. And I was the one person who,

Christal Pennic (21:33.856)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (21:38.197)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:38.76)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:46.038)
you know wasn't connected to their very particular religion, but there it was, you know, you get to your job and so I I think that might have been well it certainly was you know as we talk about important and my Path going forward, you know to to realize how important that is and how much people aren't ready for it. So

Christal Pennic (22:02.923)
you

Christal Pennic (22:07.979)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:08.169)
Mm-hmm.

So, okay, these are all very heavy thoughts that we're having that you have on a daily basis. So when things feel just a little bit harder and heavier, what do you do to keep yourself resourced, find the energy to refill your cup?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:16.287)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:30.099)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (22:31.069)
Yeah, really good question because as a new employer and seeing clients, it got to be a bit much this year. And I could feel myself in a spiral. I could feel it coming. I am a person that really enjoys going to the water. I have to have, it's a non-negotiable. I have to go to the ocean.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:41.374)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:54.697)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (22:54.84)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:57.205)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (22:57.341)
And I have been thinking about going since April. I was going to go in April to Florida. I normally have a routine where I drive from Nashville to the Pensacola area, which is about seven hours for me. And I love it because my family is in Alabama area in Montgomery, Alabama. So I can make some stops and things like that on the way to Pensacola. So I make this trip about once or twice a year.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:21.311)
Very cool.

Christal Pennic (23:25.215)
now that I'm employer, it's harder to get away. So I had longed it a bit and I could tell in just me and making mistakes, careless mistakes. I couldn't think clearly. I was like, I need to be able to step away. And I did, I went to the ocean. This part, this time went to Fort Walton beach, destined area. And when I tell you being in the water for me is very spiritual.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:28.691)
Right?

Annalouiza (23:35.982)
Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:42.335)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:42.466)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:54.574)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (23:54.695)
It is a connection that I have. I say my best prayers in the water. I cry my best tears in the water. It is something that I have to be able to do. And that's just once a year, right? Once or twice a year. But that is a decision maker right there that once I come back, I come back with right. And so I have to have water. And then I now have a

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:58.944)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (24:00.943)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:06.441)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:06.446)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:17.116)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (24:23.303)
I have my own therapist. She is trained in the intervention called brain spotting. And brain spotting heals the brain. how she operates, she gives me two hours at a time. I need it. She knows I'm business owner. She knows I do the podcast. She knows I do all these things. And she said, OK, so let's just do two hour sessions. And I was like, yes, ma'am.

Annalouiza (24:28.994)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:48.419)
Mm hmm. Yes, please.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:51.017)
Ha ha ha.

Christal Pennic (24:53.291)
Yes, and immediately it took me no time to feel comfortable with her. I walked with her office the first day and sat on her couch and put on a blanket and just leaned back. Like I told you I need a safe place to land and she got, she was like, well, let's get started. Let's get started. And so she has been, she has been a good addition in my life. And I am so blessed to have a therapist.

Annalouiza (24:58.492)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:03.433)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:17.749)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (25:21.643)
who is right there with me, understanding she's also a business owner. She has lost parents before, and so she can speak into my situation. So it's been really good. Yeah, really good.

Annalouiza (25:30.328)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:31.893)
Yeah, that's so important.

Annalouiza (25:33.287)
the God. Yeah. God bless her. Cause we do all need a very good therapist. I got one too. I've got one too. and if you, if you wouldn't mind me sharing a gift with you too, I really want you to have more sea salt around you because it is very important, but you know, my, was trained with this, person who insisted that every day I had to bless myself with water.

Christal Pennic (25:37.109)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:37.139)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:51.828)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:55.561)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (26:03.404)
and cleanse myself to get rid of anything that wasn't of service. And so I would say to you, an Epson salt foot bath every night might be what you need, how you can connect with that cleansing, because it's a cleansing. It's the sea salt. It's the acknowledging that the water is the holder of all of who you can be and are and have been. And so if you can't get to the beach, find ways that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:13.961)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (26:16.689)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:17.534)
There you go.

Christal Pennic (26:20.042)
Yes.

Annalouiza (26:32.802)
You know, you can still connect. Yeah, connect without water because it's important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:32.937)
Make the beach, yeah, bring the beach to you. That's a great idea. Yeah, I also really think it's wonderful to, and something I'd really want to emphasize for the audience is that to find somebody who you can spend time with, if it's a therapist, if you know, and some people maybe can't afford a therapist, but there's going to be, you know, there's ministers, there's spiritual directors, yeah.

Christal Pennic (26:38.079)
Yeah, it is.

Annalouiza (26:53.368)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:57.87)
spiritual directors.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:59.905)
There's doulas, there's a lot of different people out there who are trained and can be there for you in a compassionate, listening way. So important to have that in your life as you pointed out, especially, of course, especially if you're trying to run a business and, know, or just life in general can generally be overwhelming for anybody. But yeah, thanks for making that point. I think that's so important. Yeah, that's great. What a great, great planet. I got to tell you, it's funny.

story is that I made that same trip from Florida to Nashville the other direction by accident because we missed the plane. We were like, oh, dang, it was on New Year's Day or something. We had missed the plane. We were like, okay, I guess we're driving. Anyway, it was beautiful until it got dark and then it was like, gosh, this is such a long drive. But we really enjoyed Nashville. Anyway,

Christal Pennic (27:34.827)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (27:41.888)
Christal Pennic (27:46.741)
man.

Hmm.

Annalouiza (27:55.171)
Ha ha ha.

Christal Pennic (27:58.301)
Yay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:59.262)
That little aside, I'm not sure that needs to be kept in here, but anyway. Is there anything you wish we had asked you? Anything else you'd like to share with us?

Christal Pennic (28:07.783)
Yeah, I will share with you my Grip Spot podcast. I started the podcast in 2019 under a different name, which was Surviving Sibling Loss, the Forgotten Mourners podcast. And it was just me in my kitchen, on my phone, eating, and I said, breakfast with little sister. And I was just thinking, let me be able to express now that I'm grown and I'm in my own house and my own safe.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:12.179)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:12.526)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:19.81)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:24.863)
You

Annalouiza (28:26.264)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:28.238)
nice.

Annalouiza (28:34.158)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:35.391)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (28:36.907)
Let me express the words that I didn't have as a young person and just talk it out, talk it out. And so I would just talk to myself basically, not knowing who would listen or didn't even really care. And we put out episodes about once a month and just talk about all the things that I thought about from at the age I was then to back to I was 14 years old. And what I noticed

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:43.796)
Well...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:47.431)
haha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:55.54)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (29:06.323)
was some people started emailing me and I had the first person that emailed me. She lives in Canada. And if Erla ever listens to this, I just think her who are reaching out to me all the way from Canada, she is also a surviving sibling and she couldn't sleep and she found my podcast and listened to it.

Annalouiza (29:15.534)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (29:26.542)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (29:31.598)
Mmm.

Christal Pennic (29:33.548)
And that was in 2019. And I still hear from Erla now. I met her in person at a Compassionate Friends conference last year. Another young lady I met, her name is Maggie. That's my other sibling. I met her. She sent me some emails and things like that, but they have all been on my podcast. So I started out audio only in 2022. I decided to go on YouTube and do video.

Annalouiza (29:37.934)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:49.781)
Mm.

Christal Pennic (30:02.507)
And then decided to do some in-person. So I started out just doing all sibling interviews and all of that and then, you know, my own story. And then because I'm a licensed therapist, I had to start to open it up, not just for siblings, but everybody's healing experience. Father, mother, sister, brother, all open it up.

Annalouiza (30:23.724)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:23.881)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (30:29.867)
to grief. So that's why I changed the name to the GRIP spot. So GRIP is G-R-I-P and it stands for Grieve in Peace. And one of the reasons why I named it that was because when people die, we always say, hey, rest in peace, rest in peace. But when the living is still left over, it's what do you say to them? So one of my things is, well, grieve in peace, grieve in peace while picking up the

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:34.645)
I love that.

Annalouiza (30:34.648)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (30:39.915)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (30:48.002)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (30:53.89)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:57.631)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (30:57.77)
Hmm... Ugh!

Christal Pennic (31:00.011)
Thanks

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:00.277)
That's so beautiful. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (31:02.232)
So beautiful.

Christal Pennic (31:03.339)
And it doesn't always mean that it's full, you know, in order sometimes in a lot of countries in order to get peace, there's war, right? There's unrest. And so in order to get to the peaceful spaces, there's got to be some unrest. So greed and peace.

Annalouiza (31:06.35)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:13.941)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:20.009)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:20.15)
Mm-hmm.

Oh, thank you for that. The spirit definitely moved with that language because we have been lacking something to say to the person who was left behind. really have. Grieve and peace.

Christal Pennic (31:27.209)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:34.516)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Great. So good. Yeah. And we asked you, and maybe we can come be on your podcast sometime. That would be fun. Yeah. yeah, we love trading broadcasts. That's one of our, one of our fun things to do. this has been such a fun ride for us. So, so you said, you had a quote that was, enjoy being,

Christal Pennic (31:34.611)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Christal Pennic (31:46.429)
Yeah, yeah, of course. I would love it.

Christal Pennic (32:03.453)
Enjoy being you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:04.691)
Yeah, so why don't you tell us about that quote? That'll be our final part here.

Christal Pennic (32:08.755)
Yes. it's a quote by a good friend. I left Nashville for Virginia just because I was running away. I was quite tired of being in Nashville with my family. My parents were divorcing and finally had gotten divorced after grad school and I was just tired. And so I left and worked in a place called Pulaski, Virginia, very rural.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:28.702)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:33.813)
Hmm.

Christal Pennic (32:35.467)
Nothing like Nashville at all. Culture shock completely. And the friend that I met there, I worked with her. Her name is Laura. And Laura, she would always say, enjoy being. And it was on her tags, her car tags and everything. Enjoy being, enjoy being. Now this is 2012, 2013. left, I came back home in 2014. I have continued to...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:39.541)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (32:49.794)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (33:04.831)
be in contact with her through social media. I've always seen her say this, but when she said it on my birthday, which was in August, August 5th, when she said it to me on my birthday, and she just recently lost her dad, it resonated with me so well when she said enjoy being. So I took her words to the beach with me in Florida.

Annalouiza (33:25.555)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:27.721)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (33:33.744)
and I stayed in a shipping container. It was so nice. I stayed in a shipping container. It was very nice, this little Airbnb, but it had an outdoor space. And one of the days that I was there, it started to rain, real tough rain. But the good thing about Florida weather is when it rains, it's not like in Tennessee and Nashville. When it rains here, it's thundering and lightning. It's not really comfortable to be outside. So in Florida, it was raining.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:36.657)
Hahaha

Hehehe.

Annalouiza (33:57.793)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (34:03.211)
and it didn't thunder or lightning, it was just windy and rain. So in my mind, I thought about enjoy being. So I left the shipping container, I got outside, let it rain on me. I got down on the ground and I just laid out on their porch and let it rain on me. And one of the things that I felt at that moment of enjoying being was the blessings of the rain. I didn't realize

Annalouiza (34:06.254)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:07.797)
Mm.

Annalouiza (34:12.334)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:18.67)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:20.34)
Wow.

Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:31.007)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:31.052)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (34:33.035)
how many individual raindrops would drop on somebody. So laying back and having all the individual raindrops and the wind and all of that, could hear some police in the background. I could hear all of that stuff. for me, I didn't have an SOS. I didn't have an emergency. I was enjoying being one with the rain and receiving blessings. So that's why I

Annalouiza (34:37.728)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:56.558)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Christal Pennic (35:02.571)
have that quote for especially people in grief because for so long I gave my life to grief and I still give my life to grief, but I missed some of my years. It was so hard. I missed some of my years and I missed some of my living. So enjoy being alive. I hear my brother say, you had a choice. You lived, so live and enjoy being. It still hurts.

Annalouiza (35:20.034)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:23.445)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:29.726)
Mm-hmm.

Christal Pennic (35:32.351)
but enjoy being. Don't forget to to.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:32.617)
Yeah. Wow.

What a wonderful way to end. Actually, that last, we usually do a poem, but I'd say that story was a poem.

Christal Pennic (35:38.635)
and

Christal Pennic (35:43.481)
You

Annalouiza (35:43.775)
It is a poem and it's also a testament to, again, water being what you need to be a part of. You need to like sprinkle water on yourself every day because it is powerful for you. It is so powerful. It is such a protectress. so lovely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:50.313)
Yeah.

Christal Pennic (35:55.231)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:55.688)
Yeah, yeah. I think you could just put a shower in your business, you know, just before you... All right. Well, thank you again so much, Crystal. We really appreciate you and appreciate you coming and talking to us and we'll be in touch. We'll let you know when this goes live and tell all your friends.

Christal Pennic (36:00.269)
It is. It is.

Christal Pennic (36:05.739)
Right? A outdoor shower would be great too.

Annalouiza (36:12.212)
I love this.

Annalouiza (36:16.639)
yes.

Christal Pennic (36:23.75)
Yes.

Annalouiza (36:23.756)
Yes. Yep. And blessings on your journey. may, may God just, you know, mark your steps and keep you safe because it is so lovely what you're doing. So needed.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:24.243)
Yeah, we're always looking for a good story.

Yeah.

Christal Pennic (36:28.607)
Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:32.999)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Such an honor. Take care. Bye.

Christal Pennic (36:34.781)
I appreciate it. Thank you guys. Bye.

Annalouiza (36:51.342)
Do you find the button to get off?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:53.771)
yeah. We're waiting. We usually have a moment afterward just to chat. So, all right. Thanks again.

Christal Pennic (37:08.289)
I'm gonna leave. Okay, bye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:09.373)
Yeah, there you go. See you later.

Annalouiza (37:09.708)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (37:13.294)
We should probably start telling people what's going to happen. Because yeah, because I think they're like they were going to hang out and she knows what podcasts. Yeah. Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:16.391)
Yeah, at the end. Yeah, I think I told the last one. I forgot this time, but that's good. Now what? Yeah, yeah. Now what? Right. Okay. So cool. What an important thing to deal with. Just a sibling loss to begin with, but also trauma. Yeah. Person. Yeah. And to have a place where people can come and

Annalouiza (37:36.748)
Yeah, we've never had that. We've never had a sibling loss like professional.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:44.777)
be have therapists and somebody who's an expert and knows this stuff. And wow, what a great model. I hope we can encourage that model elsewhere.

Annalouiza (37:54.989)
I know, and I'm also really curious. A lot of the folks that we speak to, if they're working in like a corporate medical industry kind of place, they have, they're probably getting insurance as a way to get paid. But a great many of our folks that we, whom we talk to are kind of doing it on their own. And I appreciate that as it's a really heavy lift to do insurance, but she's doing it because it does give people access to her.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:05.525)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:13.685)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:19.092)
Yes, it is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:23.027)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (38:23.18)
which I feel like that is actually a really great role model to support and talk about and see who else is doing that because we really do need more people to have access to, to bereavement grief, you know, therapy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:33.875)
Yeah, exactly. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think this could be one of those extended things that we could, you know, a bit of it at the beginning of what we just said could be the clip at the end. also I think we could talk a little more about the fact that if somebody is planning or thinking about how they could do this, this would be a great episode for them to listen to, to hear how she's worked through it and especially the challenges that she's had.

Annalouiza (38:54.573)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (39:00.81)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:03.253)
And trying to keep insurance available and make it accessible. She made that point. So important because we've...

Annalouiza (39:07.966)
Yes. Well, and finding people who can actually do the work, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:14.121)
Yeah, that was a big challenge. Yeah. And we've had, you know, many people talk to us about accessibility and affordability. So this is something, again, people could be working on in their own community. How do I create something like this that would be a support for sibling loss or for trauma in general, for grief in general? And how would I do that in a way that would be, would have integrity and would have people who knew what they were doing and would be affordable?

Annalouiza (39:32.002)
Mm.

Mm.

Annalouiza (39:42.03)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:44.083)
And that, you maybe it comes back to the idea of a nonprofit that supports people in that kind of thing. yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Never ends.

Annalouiza (39:48.27)
There's so much work to do. Well, and at the end too, it seems like the model is capitalism cannot have its hooks on all of us because we are so many who have gifts to share with people. We're so many who have a heart to support those who are going through really bad trauma, grief, bereavement. mean, so many of us, but we still need to put

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:10.676)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:16.148)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:17.858)
bread on the table. how do we collectively say, this is enough. Our death process is so sacred. We need to just show up and support somehow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:24.149)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:27.658)
Mm-hmm.

I love the gift economy idea that we've talked about before. Just the sense of could we create a way to support each other? You know, bring me a dozen eggs and I'll spend a half an hour with you or something, you know, things like that. And just sort of make it that we had the one person who was doing some great work and she just said, I'm willing and want to do this as much as possible and a gift economy way because I have enough, you know.

Annalouiza (40:33.154)
Mm-hmm

Annalouiza (40:43.26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:59.138)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:00.745)
Of course, our way of living in this culture is supported through cash money, right? So it's a it's a lift. Like you said, it's a big lift to find your way through that and find your way to make that work. So lots of choice, a lot of choices, a lot of work we could all do to try to figure out how that works and how we can make it affordable and accessible for people who need it. And there's no, no lack of people who need it. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:07.106)
Right.

Annalouiza (41:14.05)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:21.347)
Come.

Annalouiza (41:25.068)
That's right. No luck. And there will be more people who need it. So yes. Well, good. Well, I get another wonderful soul that we have intersected with. We are.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:30.963)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:37.248)
We are so blessed. are so blessed. All right, darlin'. Love you. I'm going to stop the recording.