Can Art and Conversation about Death REALLY Change Your Life?

You can view this as a video on YouTube! We encourage you to do so and to like and subscribe to our channel. And it really helps our statistics if you listen all the way to the end, where we include a bonus conversation!

In this conversation, we speak with Jennie Banks, the creative director of Death Dancer, about her journey with death awareness and the importance of community support in navigating grief. Jennie shares her personal experiences with death, her work creating art that fosters conversations about grief, and the events and workshops she has organized to help people process their emotions. The discussion highlights the challenges faced in death awareness, the transformative potential of grief work, and the vision for establishing permanent spaces for grief support in communities.

We explore how authenticity in conversations fosters genuine connection with others. Through open dialogue and creativity, viewers can gain valuable life lessons that contribute to personal growth. It encourages self-awareness of how you feel and the importance of emotional regulation in building stronger relationships.

Their Website

Transcript

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:04.702)
Welcome friends. On this episode, we're speaking with Jennie Beth Banks. Jenny is a creative director of Death Dancer, which is based in Olympia, Washington. Not too far from me. Death Dancer creates creative and sacred spaces, hosting arts and cultural events and group activities, who we'll talk about more, relating to death, dying, loss and living. Just for the purpose of fostering community in the South Puget Sound area in Washington State.

That's where Olympia rests in our area here, South Butte Sound, South Salish Sea, if you will.

Annalouiza (00:41.986)
Yes. Jenny founded Death Dancer after a personal illness experience and after being faced with her own mortality. She conducted interviews with death professionals, which inspired an art exhibit about death and grief at the Fall Olympia Arts Walk in October of 2024.

Since then, Death Dancer has developed and hosted a wide range of events and workshops in the area and has grown beyond Jenny and into a unique community of death-conscious people within the Olympia area. Thank you so much for being with us, Jenny.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:17.49)
Yeah, so good. So great to have you. I'm glad you're here. Why don't we start? like to begin by asking when you first became aware of death. It always seems like a good way to start because people sort of tell us more about who they are and how they got here.

Jennie Banks (01:17.711)
Thank you.

Jennie Banks (01:34.926)
I always feel like the older we get, the longer that story is. Maybe if that makes sense. So, yeah, so I'm from England originally. I've been in America 10 years and now, you know, America is my home. So I guess like most people, I'm in my early 50s and I guess like most people, you know, maybe grew up in a place where death wasn't talked about very much. It obviously was happening all around with...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:38.814)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (02:03.738)
family members, friends die in and go into funerals as a child, but it was kind of very ritualistic and, you know, the kind of standard things we do and then you don't talk about it anymore. You know, and then the next one comes and you don't talk about it. So it kind of, you know, you kind of carry it, but you don't really process it in any way. Maybe it's only nowadays we're starting to look back at that and realize how that impacted us as people that we did not have kind of a space to

share a grief or process a grief at that time. So for me, would say looking back, I was very aware that that was going on around me and very aware that there was no conversation around it. And then when I was in my late 20s, I was a Buddhist nun and my step nephew was dying of cancer.

He was 26 years old and he had a very sudden diagnosis and it all happened very quickly. He was kind gone within five weeks. And in one sense, you know, because I was a Buddhist nun, I was kind of able to offer prayers at his bedside and help him through that process at the end and help the family and support the family. So I would say, so that was actually 20 years ago. And I would say that was like the

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:08.828)
Mm.

Jennie Banks (03:27.908)
looking back, was the first my first death that I witnessed and that I was kind of around. And then, you you put you it's always there in the background, but then, you you carry on with life. And I'd always been interested in helping people write their wills, write their eulogies. I'd always thought that was important that we prepared for it. So I've always had that interest. But then

I would say it wasn't until my own illness and my own connection with my own mortality where it really kind of struck home. And that's when I was like, oh my goodness, I'm really not prepared. Even though I practiced in Buddhist, I thought I was kind of okay around death. you know, we do death meditation a lot. We talk about death. It's not so, but you know, suddenly it became more real for me. So I experienced carbon monoxide poisoning.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:19.068)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (04:23.034)
and did not die from it, but I also had lots of other symptoms that I later found out were kind of toxicity from too much B6 vitamin that really affected my nervous system. So there were times when I literally said, I think I'm dying. Who knows whether I was, who knows whether, you know, with the carbon monoxide poison, how close I was to dying. So, but I definitely went through that process. I've been very sick for a long time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:39.891)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (04:51.622)
for quite a number of, perhaps three years. So I guess when you're laid in bed thinking, I don't want to die yet, I kind of got to this point of like, I think I was late 40s at that point, I was like, no, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready to go yet. Please, you know, whoever's listening, don't let me, don't let me, yeah, I've got too much to do. So I just had this kind of surge of like energy of like, no, can't die.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:09.107)
Right.

Jennie Banks (05:24.322)
And so, I would say that's when it really hit me of like, oh my goodness, yeah, the reality that I was going to die at some point, even though I was quite deep feeling of, know, but please just not yet. And I realized I did have

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:30.674)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:40.305)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:47.527)
Yeah, yeah.

Jennie Banks (05:50.118)
a lot of anxiety around it and I needed to deal with that. So I started to interview deaf professionals as part of my process to kind of immerse myself in it and say to people, okay, I do have this deaf anxiety, but do I really know enough about it to kind of deal with that? So I want to talk with people who are around it and explore it a lot more. So that's kind of how my work, I guess, started and how my relationship with deaf began.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:11.027)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:20.136)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:20.642)
That is some lifelong journey you've been on. So could you tell us about what is your current work?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:24.019)
Hehehe.

Jennie Banks (06:29.048)
OK, so I have actually have a day job where I'm a grant writer for a non-profit for people with disabilities. And then the work I'm doing now relating to deaf care is I did decide to train as an end of life doula because I felt, you know, it's definitely the space I want to work in more and to help people around end of life. But separately to that, I was kind of going through my own process of

After I was doing these interviews with people, I started getting lots of ideas for art pieces in my head, like creative ideas. And they are what I would call more conceptual art, where they're not, I say they're not necessarily pretty art, but the conceptual art that I put together that kind of triggers conversations around death or dying or grief and gets conversations going. I always say my pieces seem to be like a mirror. So people read

They read my story of what the piece is about. And many, many times people say, yeah, that reminds me of when my mom died. That reminds me of my experience of grief. So that kind of idea of using art in that way seemed to be developing. So then someone said to me, hey, do you know, you can show your art at the Arts Walk in Olympia. So this was last year. And then someone else said, hey, do know there's a new grant at the city they're going to be doing for arts and culture and public programming? So suddenly it became this like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:47.037)
You

Jennie Banks (07:56.16)
new thing of like, well, yeah, I'm going to try and I'm going to go for that grant and I'm going to try and show some of this art at the Arts Walk. But knowing that it was a lot more edgy maybe than most of the arts at the Arts Walk and it was going to be more maybe deeper and get these conversations going. So it was a little bit of an experiment. So we did. So I basically created 27 pieces of art by October last year and I showcased it at the Arts Walk in October.

But then all these people I've been interviewing, I was building up a lot of really good relationships and collaborations with people in the community who work in deaf care. So I'd say to them, after the Arts Walk, why don't we do a whole month like mini Deaf Festival and just do lots of events around deaf and dying and grief. So we did a whole month of October in the same venue. And so the art was available for people to see beyond the Arts Walk. And then we did, I think we did 19 different events.

all different workshops, different ways. And the idea of it was basically just to bring people in the community together around the topic in so many different ways. many different things. So after that, obviously then people were like, is that it? know, can we keep going? And, know, we'd only got this finite grant to do that. And we were like, well, let's see what we can do. And then I have a colleague, Rebecca, who's also an end of life doer. She kind of really helped me with that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:09.363)
Hehehe.

Jennie Banks (09:21.122)
Arts Walk and she said, well, you know, we could work together to do more events, keep going with more events. So one of the main topics people seem to say they needed was more gatherings around grief, more people getting together to share their grief experiences and share their stories and personal experiences with each other. So we started a monthly grief gathering. Initially, it started in the

Christmas New Year period as a way to like get people together on their own at the holidays, maybe strongly missing their person around those holiday times. And it kind of grew from that we like, let's see how it goes. And people responded well, and we said, Okay, well, let's just keep going. Then let's, you know, find other venues and do this once a month. And so we just kept doing that. And we ended up developing a format of where we we do a meditation at the beginning.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:53.085)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (10:16.9)
different kind of meditations, but something that's more contemplative and kind of going a bit more deeper with some of these concepts. And then we go around the circle, but we focus on a certain topic. So we don't make it a general, like, come and tell us how you're feeling today. We try and focus it and really talk about certain topics around grief from your experience. So it becomes like a shared collective wisdom. So we're listening to each other and with with, I know, yeah, you know, relating to that topic, this is my experience of my grief.

And we find that that really kind of transforms the energy and people really get a lot out of listening to each other's experiences and realizing, you know, they're not alone and they're not the only one who's lost someone and they're not the only one going through this process. So that's been really powerful. And then at the end of each session, we spend 30 minutes at the end doing some like somatic work, some art. So we either do drawing or writing a poem. So they have to, the idea is that they process and they kind of

Annalouiza (10:58.094)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:58.706)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (11:14.682)
don't leave with it all in the body. kind of do something so that they kind of get it out onto the piece of paper and then we share that. And then, you know, we kind of released from that. And then we started doing Deaf Stories Open Mic. So people start to say, well, know, the group gathering is very intimate, but, know, I'm not really ready to tell my story. I don't want to share my story in a small group. So we're like, well, OK, let's start an open mic at a different venue. And

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:24.348)
Well.

Jennie Banks (11:42.874)
But that one is very public. It's literally got a little stage and a venue in Olympia and people have 10 minutes to tell their story and you can just come and listen if you're not ready to share. You just listen to other stories and we kind of get through maybe about six or seven stories on that evening. And obviously for many people it's helpful to tell their story and be heard and be listened to and people witnessing their grief and witnessing their experience.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:06.472)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (12:11.576)
And actually we find it hard to stop people at 10 minutes because it feels like people have not had the arena or space to tell their story. And suddenly we're here saying, please tell us your story. And they're like, I can't fit it all in 10 minutes, know, there's so many layers to each story around End of Life or Green. So we finally come back each time and tell a different part of the story. You know, it can build some people get to know each other's stories deeper.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:15.091)
haha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:26.802)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:30.781)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:34.803)
Hmm.

Jennie Banks (12:38.598)
So we did that and then we started doing some events at the cemetery. So we started doing art workshops at the cemetery. So that was just to get people out in the cemetery and again, more familiar with being around death in a different way, be more comfortable to talk about it. And then the Arts Walk developed where everyone's like, okay, are you going to do Arts Walk again this year? And

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:52.563)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (13:02.916)
I've been so busy with all these other events that my own art practice was a little bit on the back burner and I was like, well, I've got lots of ideas, but I've not got as much time to make that many this time. And then somebody came up with an idea, well, why don't we invite other artists to share their process? So I just put out that call, like, call in all artists, is anybody want to show their art around deaf, dying or green? And what happened was, this was like a year ago.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:23.699)
You

Jennie Banks (13:31.716)
almost a year ago I put that out and then slowly people started contacting me and saying, I've heard, I'm an artist and I've got some work. And then it just built and built obviously and then word of mouth got out and then I'd just be at something and then they'd be like, I heard you're doing an arts work, I've already put a piece in without my brief process. So now we've got, I would say over 30 artists in this kind thing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:51.667)
Thanks.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:56.06)
Wow.

Right? And so that's coming up here in October again, right? You said? Yeah.

Jennie Banks (14:02.79)
Yes, so the third and fourth of October in Olympia as part of their biannual arts walk and then we're also going to do some extra events the day after in the same venue so we're renting it for like the whole week.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:15.251)
Wow, so you guys are just putting together a whole vast experience, many, many different ways to approach this. I appreciate that so much. That's so needed. So thank you for that work. So what do you find are your biggest challenges with this work?

Annalouiza (14:22.52)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (14:30.75)
yeah, it's interesting because I guess I feel like, you know, there is definitely a more openness now, people are starting to talk about it more. there's definitely that in general and, know, more people are saying, I feel called to be an end of life doer and more people are doing the training and there's more training available. but at the same time, I feel like, people are still kind of nervous to dip their toe in, you know, the act like

day-to-day people it's still like a big thing for them to stop having that conversation. So I think, I don't know if it is a challenge, but I feel constantly we're having to remind people like it's okay, it's okay, it's okay to talk about your story, you know, you're allowed to share your emotions, you're allowed to share your grief story. So we're constantly thinking of ways to do that just so people

I think them also witnessing other people doing it that, you know, it has some kind of symbiosis and they see that and they're like, oh, okay, that, you know, that seems okay, I can do this. And then next time, you know, they'll chip in. But I think for me, a challenge, I guess, and this is just part of my process is I'm not a trained grief therapist. So it's more like we're, it feels more like we're doing it as like a peer support, like we're helping each other in community. So it's kind of a

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:41.543)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:48.435)
Sure.

Jennie Banks (15:50.734)
a journey for all of us because we're all bringing our griefs to the table and we're all saying, OK, well, this is my process. And for me, I'm using art a lot in my process. But I'm kind of so it's more about the challenge of remaining open to what other people's experiences are as we go and listening to what they need and what they're how that might work for them or not. And I would say and this is not necessarily my challenge or our challenge, but just

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:57.843)
Okay.

Jennie Banks (16:19.192)
a phenomenon in the world, there is a lot of grief out there. People are carrying so much grief. And not just about someone they've lost, but about all sorts of things in our life, the grief they carry. So I'm realizing, wow, people, like this is the first time for so many people, especially some older people who have been told, share it, tell it, tell your story. And that's sometimes a challenge to hold all that and to try and say, OK, well,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:22.6)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:23.522)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:29.838)
That's right.

Jennie Banks (16:47.514)
Well, also to say, well, you know, I don't need to hold all that, but I need to witness and honour your story without kind of taking on the grief you're carrying. But how do we transform that and how do we work through that in communists?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:51.197)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:58.45)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:02.606)
Yep. Well, I'm really curious about this transformative potential that you have been like, just inundated with. At the beginning, you mentioned that you were a Buddhist nun and that you also recognize that you were very stressed or anxious about dying. So has this process over the last year and a half shifted this anxiety? you like, what worries you about the end of life for you now?

Jennie Banks (17:21.126)
Boom.

Jennie Banks (17:31.822)
Interesting, good question. Well, yeah, I sometimes check in on myself and say, yeah, how am I doing with that? I would say a number of answers to that. So one, I think for me at the time it was identifying or what I've identified since this process is I think some of us just as human beings just feel, you know, we need community, we need a support network. And I think for me at the time,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:46.387)
Thank

Jennie Banks (18:00.23)
I didn't maybe didn't feel a strong support network. So it was all those kind of practical things of like, oh, what was going to happen to my dogs? What's going to happen to this? Like not being ready to let go because, you know, things weren't taken care of that whole kind of, you know, process we talk about of getting everything in order. And maybe because I was only in my late 40s, I didn't know if you'd think I had got a will, but I'd not thought, you know, I kind of thought it's not going to happen yet. So I don't need to take care of that. So I think a lot of it was probably coming from that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:13.907)
All

Jennie Banks (18:30.246)
And now I would say I'm a bit more prepared. I still have these conversations with friends, know, I still I'm honest with them and I'm saying yeah, like when I'm sick sometimes still I will say, yeah, I'm still worried about the dogs and you know, it's probably mainly worried about my dogs. You like you worry about your children, you know. So I would say my anxiety is less, but it's more that I understand it better than I did. That makes sense.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:44.541)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:48.637)
He

hehe

Jennie Banks (19:00.07)
I'd say at the time it was more emotional and more of an overwhelm. And now it's like, OK, I understand where this is coming from. And again, I'm no different to anyone else. And we all experience these emotions. And it's more about me being honest and being able to say to people, yeah, I need support. I need help. Sometimes when I'm sick, I still go through every time I'm sick or have any symptoms, I still go through this like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:27.933)
Hmm.

Jennie Banks (19:28.836)
I might die today, it could be this is it again. And I kind of revisit all of that. And sometimes I have a bit of anxiety again. And sometimes I'm more like accepting and more like, well, I guess, I guess if it's it, is it. So I kind of oscillate between the two if I'm honest.

Annalouiza (19:37.304)
Thank

Annalouiza (19:43.98)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:48.722)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:50.543)
Well, let me just tell you, you can have your will, and you can have a little trust for your pets. Like I have heard that people leave trust for the care of their fur babies. And so you could just write it up for them and get it done and be it's notarized and they're going to be fine.

Jennie Banks (19:58.854)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (20:03.206)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:03.251)
You

Yeah, yeah.

Jennie Banks (20:08.326)
I've actually allocated a very tiny pension in England and I've allocated a small part of for the dogs and I have told a friend it's in her name so I have said that's for the dogs.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:11.251)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:24.761)
great. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's our message every time. Write it down, make sure people know where it is. Yeah, I also appreciate what you said earlier about witnessing but trying not to hold, trying not to carry other people's grief. And that's such an incredible and wonderful and valuable service to do for anybody, anybody to do for anybody else, but specifically to...

Annalouiza (20:25.102)
I was, write it down.

Annalouiza (20:37.09)
No. Right.

Jennie Banks (20:42.182)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:52.647)
have made that your life's work in a way. We really appreciate that people like you are out there doing this work. It's so important. So thanks for bringing that up. think that's for folks, especially folks in the audience who are starting to feel like they want to do this work maybe, or that they already do it just because they're humans. Just to be able to be in that place of witnessing, compassionate listening, but not let it become your weight.

Annalouiza (21:10.719)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:21.799)
somehow be able to not have to hold it for other people. So very, very good and very important. for, yeah. How do you, when things get overwhelming, and I know they must, because all that stuff you're talking about, man, that's a lot. When things get overwhelming, how do you resource yourself? What kind of practices do you have that help you keep going?

Annalouiza (21:21.902)
That's right.

Annalouiza (21:26.062)
Mm-hmm.

Reminder. Yeah.

Jennie Banks (21:47.622)
Yeah, I say breathing. Breathwork or breathing meditation, I'd say, is to kind of a different level of meaning to when I used to teach it and when I was a Buddhist nun when I was younger. And now it just feels a whole different, like, gratefulness for that breath and like understanding of, my goodness, breathing is so important. yeah, so I would say

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:51.997)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:06.227)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (22:16.302)
those kind of things, breath work. I'm quite interested in sound healing. So for me, I often, you know, end up putting on certain sound in different frequencies. I do believe in that. We just try and bring that into our work sometimes as well. And I just think, you know, getting out in nature with my dogs, going for walks, just, you know, just trying to release. And yeah, I don't know if this is the right

kind of answers you were meaning. But just again for me that support network and having, I would say a lot of my friends now, my main friends are within that same community. And I mean, you because I've not lived here, I've only lived in Olympia three years. So, you know, I've had to build a new friendship circle here anyway. But what I find is

Annalouiza (22:47.278)
That's perfect.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:00.722)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (23:12.686)
or what we say that we find is when you get to know people in this kind deaf-conscious community, because people have authentic conversations about death and dying and feelings and emotions and like really raw stuff, they become really dependable people because they're kind of authentic people because you get to know all parts of them in a way over time. the friendships and relationships really go really deep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:30.483)
Mm.

Yeah.

Jennie Banks (23:40.87)
it feels like you really are there for each other, if that makes sense. So I feel that that is really valuable, I guess, for me. Again, I'm not holding everything. It's like we're all holding each other somehow. I think that trusting in that authentic-ness, it just means that, you know, if I do need, if I do get overwhelmed or I do need support, it's like I can have those honest conversations with those people.

Annalouiza (23:43.404)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:43.547)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:08.537)
That's great. Yeah. Yeah, the community becomes really important in this work for sure. And of course, getting into nature. Nature is our other community. It's very important.

Annalouiza (24:08.77)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:14.028)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Jennie Banks (24:18.65)
Yeah, right.

Annalouiza (24:21.684)
So we always ask our guests like is there something you wish we had asked you?

Jennie Banks (24:28.198)
Yeah, let see. Let see if I might know. I guess maybe what's vision is for the future, like where we want to take this, because there is some other ideas I could mention. Yeah, so although we creating many, what's the word, like temporary spaces, that's a big part. We kind of formed our mission statement that we're creating spaces for people to tell stories, to share their experiences.

Annalouiza (24:38.574)
Okay, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:39.537)
Yeah, that's...

Jennie Banks (24:57.382)
to kind of these conversations around death and grief. I think we feel like, you know, it's not enough for the people that are benefiting. It's like we need more things happening more often and in more days of the month. People, they can't always wait for that once a month of grief gathering. They just need support now. Today, they're having a bad day and they just want to connect with somebody who gets where they're at. So our real vision is to get a permanent space in town.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:11.495)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:16.647)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (25:26.054)
that is where we're heading. It's where people can, it's not necessarily going to be open 24 seven, but you know, be clearer, like somebody's here at certain times a day, and these events are always happening. So there's always going to be someone you can kind of chat with before or after the event. So it's just a lot more, again, that building that community, but in a physical space. And I guess that's our vision is, you know, I know some other places are starting to do this as well. But our vision is, you know, that every town would have a place like that.

Annalouiza (25:27.234)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:27.731)
Mm.

Jennie Banks (25:56.166)
And I know there's already, you know, grief support out there, there's already hospice, there's already many things, but we're finding there's a lot of people whose experience around end of life is not fitting into those strategies that are available. And they're saying, you know, so there's so many things that I think we're offering that we're kind of all those things that fall through the cracks and people don't feel they know where to go for support. So we want a place where all of that's kind of...

Annalouiza (26:08.514)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:08.636)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (26:25.03)
held, I guess, and everybody can bring their experience to it. Yeah, so that's our ultimate vision is to kind of bring it into the community directly.

Annalouiza (26:33.016)
That's a beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:35.953)
Yeah, yeah. And I love the idea everybody should have one of those in their town. So every town should have it. should be a new institution like the post office and the library and the grief center.

Annalouiza (26:36.024)
Beautiful vision.

It sounds, that's right.

Jennie Banks (26:43.75)
Yeah.

Jennie Banks (26:49.217)
Yes, I think I kind of see it. think in a 50 years time, 100 years time, it's doable. I think it's beautiful. I think I can see our society having that, especially Western society. I just think we've lost touch with that. And I think I can see for humans being able to do that. that's my hope.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:04.625)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:09.267)
Yeah, yeah. know some in Oregon and I think there's some in Colorado. And so yeah, there are places where those things are starting to happen, like you said.

Jennie Banks (27:14.022)
Alright.

Annalouiza (27:18.776)
And I think you're right too, because you know, we do have a lot of deaths before us. Like we have a very large part of our community who will be transitioning and more people will be kind of in that realm a lot more than we have been. And so there are going to be a lot of questions. There's going to be a little heartache. There's going be a lot of what I want that grief center to be there. So that to support all those folks.

Jennie Banks (27:18.959)
lot.

I'm out.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:37.331)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (27:38.502)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:43.56)
Hehe.

Yeah. Yeah, well, we've talked about grief and grief and loss apply to so many other things, too. The grief for the planet, the grief for the democracy, you know, so many things that people are grieving and feeling at a loss and feeling, you know, like they need support. So, yeah, I think that would be a great service to have in every single town. I think we should advocate for that. And the other thing would be really cool would be if.

Jennie Banks (27:46.928)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:53.132)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:03.266)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:10.37)
Yeah, that's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:14.151)
people like yourself who are already doing stuff like that can communicate, start getting connected and share resources with each other and share ideas with each other, help each other build that community, that extra community, yeah. Cool.

Annalouiza (28:20.611)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (28:25.43)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we also want to do that with the art. So we also hope that every time we'd have a, you know, like an arts work event with all their artists as well. So we're actually working on a documentary as well this year, but this one to just so we can share that or inspire other people to do it. Because what we're finding as well is

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:40.636)
How nice.

Annalouiza (28:41.868)
lovely.

Jennie Banks (28:48.144)
people have already made their art. There's only a few of those 30 in our arts walk that are starting from scratch or saying, yeah, I'll start making some art. majority of people have already been doing this for years and years and years, and they're just showcasing their art. But it's already out there. People are already doing this in process. And I just really want to promote that idea that, you know, well, let's show it. Let's bring it out of your house and show the people that they can have these conversations with, as well.

Annalouiza (28:59.138)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:03.219)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:04.92)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:11.137)
right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:15.239)
Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate this has been a great conversation. We really appreciate you. You brought us a poem that you had written called What If. Do you want to read that yourself?

Jennie Banks (29:27.843)
If I go to the other screen, you can still see me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:30.001)
Yeah, I think, let me check. I'm looking at the wrong screen right now, but see if you're still there.

Jennie Banks (29:35.334)
I'm just going to put my phone down.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:38.183)
Yeah, you're still there.

Jennie Banks (29:40.166)
Sorry, should have printed it.

Jennie Banks (29:50.31)
Okay, I'm gonna, my computer went a bit slow with all the things open. Okay, edit this a little bit. Okay, let see if I can just get to it from the original email. Okay, so this poem I wrote for a grief gathering, I often say I feel like a download thing, so a lot of the things kind of come through me, I feel inspired about, you know, what would.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:55.271)
No rush.

Jennie Banks (30:16.87)
going to do and what topics to say. So this really came through me as a poem the night before the grief gathering. And it's a lot longer. And I did it, I kind of presented it more as a meditation and I guided everybody through it as a guided meditation. But for this version for you, I just kind of shortened it. So it's really about, it's called What If and it's really about just some considerations about how we normally deal with grief and like

considering is there some of the ways that we can relate to it that actually might not be ways we thought of before. Okay, I will go ahead and move. Okay. So what if I wasn't meant to fight my grief? What if I was meant to feel my grief? What if I wasn't meant to move on from my grief? What if I was meant to keep my grief moving, changing, transforming?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:52.424)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (31:14.202)
What if I wasn't meant to grieve alone, sat in my house carrying all of these new emotions in my body? What if I was meant to grieve in community with others, alongside others, recognizing and mirroring the emotions we all carry, the experiences we all share? What if I didn't need to carry my grief like a heavy load? What if I could allow myself to share my story with others so I could put the load down and we can all deeply listen to each other?

What if my grief wasn't a burden laid at my doorstep or like a tonne bricks someone gave me to carry on my back? What if my grief was a gift someone passed to me to tend, to consider, to care for? A reminder of my love for them and the joys we shared together. What if I wasn't meant to get over my grief? What if I was meant to just sit with it, like sitting on a bench with a friend, a cup of tea in our hands watching the sunset on a perfect blue sky day?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:52.915)
So busy.

Jennie Banks (32:14.17)
What if my grief isn't a portal to my pain? What if my grief is a portal to my joy?

Annalouiza (32:25.758)
that grief, the burdened, the load of bricks.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:28.593)
Yeah, I love that. I love the visual of sitting on a park bench watching the sunset with your grief next door having a cup of tea. Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:36.172)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (32:38.534)
That's the definition.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:42.063)
Yeah, that's such a good reminder that we can be with it without allowing it to, or without being overwhelmed by it. Well, thank you again so much. It's really been a pleasure, Jenny. since I'm not far away, I hope I can come down and visit you when you're doing your art walk next month or in October. Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:47.021)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Banks (32:50.342)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (32:53.774)
Thank you.

Jennie Banks (33:01.784)
Okay, great, wonderful. Yeah, in about four weeks-ish, Okay, thank you. Thank you for having me and for listening to my story.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:06.545)
Yeah, cool.

Yeah. All right. We'll let you know when it goes, you know, gets, gets, gets, becomes available. And, you can tell all your friends. And anyway, yeah, anyway, let people know that we are always looking for a good story.

Annalouiza (33:11.33)
Yes.

Annalouiza (33:15.064)
Hahaha

Jennie Banks (33:17.99)
Okay, yes, yes.

Jennie Banks (33:25.178)
Yeah, yeah, okay. I know lots of people who are out there, especially once they hear that I'm on this, there might be some other people I could recommend. Okay, thank you. Have a lovely day.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:28.435)
All right.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:34.382)
Great. Thank you, Jenny.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:34.419)
All right. All right. Thank you. Take care.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:44.591)
Okay. Yeah, yeah. And my God, like taking it and running with it, you know? It's like, just here we are. Let's see, what can we do? What else can we do? What else can we do? What else can we do? Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:44.962)
Such a tender heart.

Annalouiza (33:59.055)
She has made a buffet of how to help all of us. It's so amazing. I kind of would love to go hear her open mic night. Like it reminds me of the moth, right? Like, let's go here. Yeah, I really like that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:09.907)
Wouldn't that be interesting? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I hear more more storytelling kind of, know, and these, they're all pretty much in that same format to just get up and tell your story in 10 minutes, but to be able to have it specifically, yeah, created for that purpose, it's really, really beautiful. Well, once again, we are blessed. All right, we'll see you again in a bit. All right, much love.

Annalouiza (34:22.211)
Mm-hmm.

distill it.

Annalouiza (34:30.674)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you.

A bit, yes. Adios!