What Happens When Psychedelics Meet End of Life Care?

You can view this as a video on YouTube! We encourage you to do so and to like and subscribe to our channel. And it really helps our statistics if you listen all the way to the end where we include a bonus conversation!

In this conversation, Reverend Bodhi Be discusses the evolution of his work in conscious dying and the establishment of the Ram Dass Institute of Psychedelic Studies. He emphasizes the importance of community care in the dying process, the role of death doulas, and the integration of psychedelics as a tool for end-of-life care. The discussion also touches on cultural appropriation in the use of sacred medicines and the need for a community-centered approach to dying. The upcoming event in Maui aims to bring together various practitioners to explore these themes further.

This video explores the intersection of end of life care and the use of psychedelics in managing anxiety and fear. It highlights the importance of health care and support during the death and dying process, emphasizing community care and how hospice care teams can provide comfort. We also touch on death education to assist people during end-of-life situations.

Our inaugural Ram Dass Institute of Psychedelic Studies with the Dying Retreat takes place January 3–8, 2026 on Maui.

Experience five days of sacred learning, community, and spiritual depth — rooted in Ram Dass’s teachings and guided by the spirit of aloha.

Ticketing and more details.

Transcript

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:02.591)
Welcome everybody. We're so glad to have you back today and we are so glad to welcome a very special guest. I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews. We are having Reverend Bodhi be back today. Bodhi was actually our second guest way, way back at the very beginning when we started. And so we give him a ton of credit actually before that even for having mentored Bodhi and I took, or he taught classes that I took many years ago and really kind of put the seeds that have grown out and become what this whole podcast is about. So we're so happy to have Bodhi back again after a couple of years of doing this. He is here to speak to us today about his new work. He's helping to found a new branch of his nonprofit mission, is the Doorway into Light. The new mission is the Ram Dass Institute of Psychedelic Studies with the dying. R-I-P-S, RIPs. RIPs is a natural evolution of their mission to approach dying as a sacred rite of passage, supported by love and consciousness. Bodhi was, like I said, one of our very first guests. So, so glad to have you back and we're looking forward to hearing more about this.

Reverend Bodhi Be (01:21.02)
I appreciate you making the time inviting me.

Annalouiza (01:21.358)
Yes, so yeah, so welcome back Bodhi. I am the Reverend Mother Annalouiza Armendariz and like Bodhi, am, he is an, like Bodhi and myself, we're in Wakil, we are all ordained interfaith ministers and he is a teacher in the Sufi lineage of Samuel Lewis and Hazrat Inayat Khan. He is a founder and executive director of Doorway Into Light which has operated Hawaii's only nonprofit funeral home since 2012. Reverend Bodie is a funeral director, an end of life and bereavement counselor and educator. He is continuing the work of Ram Dass. He has continued the work that Ram Dass helped birth in the field of conscious dying in the United States. Let me say that again. He has continued the work of Ram Dass who helped birth in the fields of conscious dying in the United States which is what we'll be talking about today. Thank you so much for joining us.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:20.81)
Yeah. Yeah. So I was really glad you contacted me. I've been watching you work on this project and seeing the announcements about it. So really want to hear more about this idea that, you you've been doing this for years. Why don't you talk a little bit about what you've been doing for years, training people for, to care for dying people and then how the, how that has moved into this new project.

Reverend Bodhi Be (02:21.532)
Glad to be here.

Reverend Bodhi Be (02:49.26)
Thank you. The story of what Doorway and Delight has turned into really kind of hovered around my being for a long time. And I was fortunate enough to, and Leila and I, my wife, were going to start an organization, Doorway and Delight. And we lived down the street from Ram to us, and he'd become a friend and a mentor. And I approached him and said, you know, this is what we want to do.

Ram Dass right away said, I've been doing that work for 40 years, I'll help you. So from that point on, he helped found the organization and remained as one of our board members until his death and continues to guide us. started immediately started presenting educational programs to see who in the greater community wanted to talk about this stuff and want to want to somehow carry forth as a community around this whole piece of conscious dying and conscious care of the dying.

We did that since 2006 and continue to do that now in 2025. And it's evolved quite a ways in terms of our educational programs around preparing for death, conscious aging, conscious caring for dying people, conscious openness to build capacity around showing up for a world in crisis. so that those.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:14.25)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (04:18.323)
workshops and programs turned into we started training death doulas and then we started certifying death doulas and now we're starting to train people in the doula world of caring for people with brain disorders and of course that's a giant opening field big time and at some point Ram Dass basically entrusted us to carry on his work in the field of conscious dying in the America and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:31.156)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:35.646)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (04:47.065)
and gave us permission to use his name for the Ram Dass Institute of Psychedelic Studies with the dying. And that's been sitting until it felt time to activate it. And activating it is what we're doing right now with putting on a big event here on Maui in January, the third through the eighth. And we're hoping people from around the world come. want people who are immersed in the conscious dying field and conscious care of the dying.

as well as practitioners in the sacred work of psychedelic medicines and bringing those communities together to actually grow a community around how can psychedelics be useful as another tool in helping people die well and what I call leave in peace. So that's what we're up to in terms of wanting to really grow this community and with Ram Dass's blessing we're now planning an event and we're bringing

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:35.87)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (05:46.31)
number of amazing people who work in these fields in the medical profession, people who have been ceremonial guides in the field of conscious use of psychedelics and really curious in how they interface and how they become part of the, you could say toolkit of how we really support people to die well. now there have been so many studies in clinical

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:08.094)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (06:15.463)
and university settings around the usefulness and importance of psychedelic medicine in mental illness, depression, PTSD, veterans, and dying people. now, sooner or later, it'll become legal in every state as it's starting to, and in the recognition that a lot of the medicines out there right now for mental illness.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:18.239)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (06:44.505)
and psychological imbalances don't work for a lot. I think that's actually being acknowledged now and given that now psychedelic medicines in clinical settings are actually proving to be quite effective. It seems only appropriate that that starts to integrate in what we can show up with as an option in caring for dying people. What are people most...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:48.158)
They don't. That's right. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:53.322)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:11.688)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (07:14.065)
What is the most challenging thing for so many dying people? The fear of the unknown, the fear of annihilation, the anxieties around those fears, the depression brought on by those fears and anxieties, all of that which is now being addressed with current available Western medicines for the most part. So that kind of is the setting in which this is

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:20.617)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:35.924)
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (07:36.302)
Mm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (07:41.435)
This is perfect timing. It's becoming more more aware in so many ways to people, right? It's getting so much more airplay about psychedelic medicine. And it's not necessarily a drug to get high by any means, that it is a sacred medicine. And of course, it requires its use in a sacred way.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:51.7)
Yeah, yeah, and more and more people.

Annalouiza (07:52.812)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:56.906)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:04.252)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Glad you're doing it. Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (08:07.634)
So that gets us up to date and I could say I could.

but I'm back. But I lost my camera. funny.

Annalouiza (08:17.319)
did we lose him?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:18.674)
He is going to come back, I think. Now you're back. You went away, but you're back.

Reverend Bodhi Be (08:24.048)
well, now I'm looking at my computer in order to look at you, which is down here, but it makes me look like I'm looking at you. So here I am again, and it's kind of odd, but... So we're hoping people will go to our website. There's a menu on doorwayuntolight.org. At the top is a menu named RIPPS. Right now it's really getting a lot of play on Instagram and Facebook.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:29.978)
That works. It's all good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:45.3)
Mm-hmm.

Good. Yeah. And he's frozen again. What do you want to ask him?

Reverend Bodhi Be (08:52.132)
will get you to include some of those links at some point. And you don't have to be involved in any of those fields, but are being, let's say, drawn and called to this event, right? You don't need to be a professional anything. You could be somebody that maybe at some point will be caring for a dying loved one, which I think is most everyone at this point.

Most of all of us will be called on to care for a dying loved one. And there are many people now that want to care for people beyond their own personal loved ones. It's a big opening field now. What I've been calling Death Dula for a long, time. And we've been training Death Dulas since 2017. So we've got a lot of people out there now doing some really important work.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:33.055)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:39.412)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:44.713)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (09:46.661)
in really filling the gap that is a healthcare crisis in this country, as everybody by now is aware of. And too many people have to stay home from work because they're the only caregiver for mom and dad. And to hire people is expensive. So there are so many parts to why the death due to the movement is not only growing rapidly, but

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:48.905)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:57.972)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:07.592)
Yeah, yeah, we've been talking about ways to echo again.

Reverend Bodhi Be (10:15.608)
that I would say so needed, as you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:21.608)
Yeah, yeah. I'm hearing echoes again. We will hopefully be able to clear that out in the editing. Yeah, so thank you for bringing us up to speed with all that. Luisa, do you have any thoughts or questions you want to throw out about all that?

Annalouiza (10:29.141)
too.

Annalouiza (10:40.066)
I would, I'd love this as a service announcement for everyone who can attend. I would like to have a conversation buddy some other time down the road. I have mixed feelings about letting people use psychedelics in the end of life. And it has to do with indigenous peoples who have had this kind of use, use like this taken away from them. And then, you know, the industry decides who gets it and how much they charge for it. So.

There is that piece of unsettledness that I have with this. And I'm not saying that I don't think that it's a useful tool for folks who are of mental illness and PTSD and anxiety around the end of diet. But I noticed like it's mostly white people who get to like hold this medicine and then create an industry that pays them. So not today, but I would love to have that conversation at some point.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:31.583)
haha

Reverend Bodhi Be (11:31.748)
I'd love to speak to that. I have those exact concerns myself. And everything we do is nonprofit. Everything we do is considered ministry.

All the people that work here in our organization are ordained ministers in one way or another. What we're bringing to this event is that this piece has to be held as ministry and sacred service, not as money making, profit making. And yes, the industry is there, but that's not our work. And we're the alternative to that. And I think Doorway into Light is known, in fact.

Annalouiza (11:57.708)
Yeah, right.

Annalouiza (12:07.15)
you

Reverend Bodhi Be (12:11.33)
because everything we do is about community empowerment. As far as cultural appropriation, that's a huge topic. again, I think in my view, if you bring a sacredness to it, then we're meant to have access to it, that it wasn't meant to be kept among the small things. Cultural appropriation, it's like everything I wear now comes from, is made in a different country.

Annalouiza (12:23.073)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (12:40.565)
almost all the food I eat comes from different cultures. Almost all the music I listen to is from other cultures. So yeah, that's a big conversation, that piece. And cultural appropriation to me is like the abuse of turning something that is sacred to sacred period, not just to indigenous peoples, but is sacred and needs to be approached in a sacred way.

Annalouiza (13:03.843)
Right.

Annalouiza (13:07.723)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (13:08.163)
and it has been so abused oftentimes to make money.

Annalouiza (13:14.498)
Yeah. Well, and that's what I feel about all, plant medicines in, you know, in circulation at this moment. I'm from Colorado and the marijuana industry has become like billions of dollars for corporations to like decide to, you know, put up their shingle everywhere. And I will say like as a death midwife, I've been called by people who want to use, ketamine or

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:15.209)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:42.702)
like psilocybin at the end of life. And it's not a practice that I have used for people. So I don't feel comfortable like saying, yes, I can. And yet, you know, I'm also very curious, like never having died and never having like, you know, gone through this at the end of life. But I'm curious why. I mean, I understand the whys. I guess, are there people who shouldn't be taking this at the end of life? Because it feels like there's a little a little bit of integration that should happen after you have.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:54.442)
You

Annalouiza (14:10.04)
plant medicine and if it's like it's like as your trend like as you're transferring your soul into the next realm like how how is that in kind of in loving guidance to ourselves into the world I don't know

Reverend Bodhi Be (14:22.307)
Beautiful, well said. Well said. there needs to be a very intake form and an interview. There are number of steps. In fact, that's one of things we want to explore at our event in January. What are the best practices? How do we approach it as sacred medicine? How do we help people integrate the experience? How do we set the tone?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:25.396)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:36.782)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (14:43.95)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (14:48.727)
for the, you and you brought it up psilocybin right now is the one we're particularly interested in and ketamine as well as getting a lot of notice right now for something that goes, it takes a shorter amount of time. That's the draw about ketamine. But what you speak to is exactly right in terms, how do we approach it? So we're immediately approaching it in a sacred way. This is not a drug you take. This is, you know, even what you call it.

Annalouiza (14:48.984)
Right.

Annalouiza (14:57.198)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:00.92)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:05.74)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:15.896)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:16.04)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:18.478)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (15:18.655)
even what you call it and you know and that setting before there's set and setting there's how do we even approach it because what you speak to is absolutely so important and you know honestly I don't see myself taking psychedelics when I'm dying and that's yeah that yeah and that's the benefit also that's the benefit also of being having a spiritual life being a minister it's like I'm rooted in that reality to help carry me

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:19.636)
care.

Annalouiza (15:26.904)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:28.827)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:32.264)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:33.517)
Yeah.

Yeah, I want to, I want to feel it. I want to be in it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:38.843)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (15:45.486)
Hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (15:48.291)
if any fear, anxiety, or dread shows up that there's something deeper going on in my life. Even the, we're going to have a woman at this January event who's been Ram Dass's caregiver for many, many, many years. And she told me right away, he didn't take any psychedelics and didn't want to take any psychedelics when he was dying. And I know people want to know that. So it's not for everybody. It's not for every instance.

Annalouiza (15:48.6)
Right. That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:56.286)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:11.192)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:15.144)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:15.222)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (16:17.027)
just like every other tools in the tool belt of caring for dying people, it's there as a resource.

Annalouiza (16:24.11)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:24.242)
Everyone's, yeah, everything's different.

Annalouiza (16:27.116)
Right, and that's what I was also going to mention because for seven years I was at a hospice center that wanted people with anxiety and pain to start out with, well, the palliative medication, of course, was always available. But I got trained as a Reiki master through this hospice center because they said, see actual benefits and wonderful support when people come in and do Reiki on somebody who has a lot of anxiety, a lot of pain.

And I did that for a long time and I really appreciated that that was in their tool belt and that actually did make people, noticeably I have witnessed, know, Reiki actually supporting people and finding a sense of like, okay, this is gonna be okay. So if you're offering this, if you also offer, you know, other modalities to be supportive at the end of life.

Reverend Bodhi Be (17:19.523)
Reiki is sure going to be part of it. Certain breath practices definitely, definitely. You know the difference between, and I'm glad you brought it up, the difference between taking psilocybin versus the palliative medicines that Western medicine offers, all of which have their value.

Annalouiza (17:26.252)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (17:42.537)
I mean, we excel at pain medication in the West. Hardly anybody ever dies in pain. But the downside of not dying in pain is you're left with your suffering. And that's what often shows up. And the difference is that Western medicines basically cover up the pain. Right? Psilocybin is about going through it into a much bigger picture of what's actually going on and who you are.

Annalouiza (17:47.278)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:53.448)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:53.687)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:00.489)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (18:00.599)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (18:06.044)
So it's a very different thing than another drug so you're not in pain or you're not depressed. It takes you through it. That's a big difference.

Annalouiza (18:07.863)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:12.65)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:16.414)
Mm-hmm. That is, that's huge, yeah.

Annalouiza (18:18.082)
Yep. Well, I'm happy to hear that that's all going to be on this wonderful buffet of end of life care.

Reverend Bodhi Be (18:23.19)
I'm so glad you brought it up, Anna-Lisa, because those are critically important questions that we want to address out front. The most important being, as far as we're concerned, doorway into light and the Ram Dass Institute of Psychedelic Studies with the dying. This is sacred work. Caring for the dying itself is sacred work. And that's how it needs to be held as ministry and sacred service.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:23.304)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:31.191)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:33.886)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:44.095)
Yep.

Annalouiza (18:51.266)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:52.89)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. We also, would also, you know, make the point that I was, was noticing in the introduction that we said it was a non only nonprofit in Hawaii. I looked it up and I think it's actually the only nonprofit in the United States. really like who

Reverend Bodhi Be (19:06.698)
I just found that out. I just found that out. I'm like right here in Haiku. And why is that? That's a sad thing. And again, we all know because it's a mega industry, mega. The other two funeral homes on Maui run by the two biggest funeral home corporations in the galaxy. So we're holding up that flag because we're not selling anything. People come in here and like, we're

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:18.12)
That is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:21.918)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:28.542)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, that's, yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (19:35.944)
selling anything and people immediately get a sense right away something else is going on here people just want to help us.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:44.426)
Yeah, yeah, what an incredible idea. I love it. So good. So tell me more a little bit more if you would about the people who are coming some of the guests that you have coming to the event.

Reverend Bodhi Be (19:45.814)
you

Reverend Bodhi Be (19:52.547)
Let's see, Lady Bird Morgan has been working in this very field. She's a nurse, works in Common Weal and a number of organizations. I'm not going to try to remember in this moment. And she's been helping and supporting people in their dying and sometimes with the use of psilocybin. Dr. Arizunen, who's got an alternative medical clinic on Oahu,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:16.115)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (20:21.506)
also is very steeped in the Tibetan story of the different levels of dying. The bardo is very versed in it and also a very broad view of, because he also has been with so many people who are dying, Driemolec, who also very immersed in psychedelics themselves and the healing power of psychedelics.

Adasyama, again the caregiver for Ram Dass for so many years, I'll be presenting as someone now with a lot of experience and skills in what does dying well look like and what does it ask of us and how can we support people to die well. What does that actually mean? Because some people will come that don't know what that is.

Who else is coming? Dr. Charlotte Charfin, an emergency doctor on the Big Island who also has been not only offering trainings in caring for dying people, but sitting at the bedside and with the medicine when appropriate. I don't know if I'm, Mary Lane who's coming here.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:12.468)
Right. Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (21:36.268)
who's written a number of books about sacred medicines in healing and in dying. I'm not even getting everybody. It's an amazing array of people.

Annalouiza (21:48.834)
Yeah, sounds like we probably want to take a little bite of everybody's classes and we would not get enough.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:48.916)
Sounds good, really.

Reverend Bodhi Be (21:52.82)
Absolutely, absolutely. And then of course, we want time for people to talk to each other because I know a number of people, again, in terms of really agreeing on what dying well is and what common the best practices are in meeting that with sacred medicine. So we're super excited about it. It's a big thing for a big step for us. And, you know, may the the gods be with us.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:00.405)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:00.483)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:11.86)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:17.812)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:18.38)
It is exciting.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:22.42)
Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that's happening. I love the approach too, to really, I mean, it's often the case, and this is kind of what Ana Luisa was speaking to earlier, that people just say, I've got a great idea, let's do this because I thought of it, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so I love that you're really acknowledging that this needs to be a community, this needs to be thought about as a community, needs to emerge in a way that the community speaks to and the people that know.

Annalouiza (22:34.294)
Yeah, not ever. It's like the lineage behind them is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:52.458)
that have that, not only that wisdom, but that passion for it are willing to step up and speak to, know, what would this look like? What would the best possible practices be so that you really come out with something that makes a lot of sense and that I'm sure emerges over time too, you know, that stays flexible and emerges over time as lessons are learned. that's, no, that's, I'm just saying that's really good. I look forward to hearing more about it. Go ahead.

Reverend Bodhi Be (23:11.059)
Of course, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Reverend Bodhi Be (23:18.773)
Well, of course we need people that are trained and skilled and sitting at the.

side of somebody who's taken psilocybin, for example. That's one side of the story. The other side of the story is from the beginning, we've been about returning, caring for the dying to community work, not to experts, not to professionals, not to strangers, but to our community caring for our dying and our dead. That's been it from the get go for us. We want to take back what we've given away.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:25.652)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:31.017)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:39.912)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:48.055)
All right.

Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (23:52.603)
really given away and I speak often about what we lost in giving it away and which I know you're very aware of and really returning this work to community. This is what we do as a village. This is the way we take care of each other. This is what builds community.

Annalouiza (23:56.248)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:08.116)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:08.814)
Yep. Yay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:13.706)
Yeah, yep, that's the way we're gonna go from here through the chaos and collapse. We're gonna come back with mutual aid and community caring for each other. So yeah, that's our way forward. Go ahead, Annalisa.

Annalouiza (24:18.753)
Yes, that's right.

Annalouiza (24:25.262)
you

Oh, no, I think that that's really essential. It just occurred to me and I'm almost out of time here. I got to get going. But I was going say, you know, when we were ordained as interfaith ministers, because we didn't come from an organized religious setting, we had to have our community be there to see us and to ordain us. And I think that is a huge piece that is missing in a lot of different communities around mutual aid. But specifically, I mean, like being in the death positive death industry world.

We don't have enough community who stands on a very, very, like an essential foundation of I want, I'm going to learn to support others. I'm going to be held accountable to my community. Like just like as spiritual directors, we go to supervision to talk about those hard things. I think this, this, if this is going to be happening, we do need to like set up the foundational pieces for people to like not only be

clearly safe people who are doing this work, actually stay safe in themselves. And until that's happened, right? Like the, the industry, the, the, the funeral industry will just like nab us because, know, we, we will grind ourselves to nothing and we will become, you know, very, yeah. So, I mean, I hope this is a really great start to this and I hope more people will actually invest in not only.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:42.154)
fodder.

Annalouiza (25:51.116)
You know, I don't want it to be like this extractive learning and then they're going to go back to Louisiana and say, can do so psilocybin deaths now, you know, because that actually happens too. But I'm going to be in community with people who are going to be continually talking about best practices, acknowledging that, that this is a lineage that is not from, you know, Europeans or I don't know where that comes from, but it's from this land and we're going to continue to be, you know, keeping a clean heart.

Reverend Bodhi Be (26:16.322)
Yeah, what I heard was when we started training debt do list right now and since 2017, you need to take a course, either an online course with us or an on Maui course with us as a prerequisite to then take a year long certification program where that includes 15 hours a month of sitting with dying people. So there's a lot to our training around debt do list.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:16.777)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (26:42.095)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (26:43.406)
And of course, as you know, now you can become a certified death due online in a weekend.

Annalouiza (26:49.834)
Online over the weekend never having seen a dead person. It just baffles me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:50.706)
Yeah, Yeah, it is. It really is. And you probably pay 5,000 bucks for that option. Yeah. I mean, my wife does when Raffaele Wendy does music therapy and that's been an issue forever. You know, she's took, she went to graduate school for this. She did years and years of internship and training. And then people go to a weekend on sound healing and come out and say they're doing music therapy and they're not.

Reverend Bodhi Be (26:53.171)
It's so America, though. It's so.

Annalouiza (27:07.886)
Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (27:10.657)
.

Reverend Bodhi Be (27:14.859)
the

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:17.834)
You know, and so it's, it's, happens a lot. And you're right. It's the capitalist system that we live in that, you know, let's see how we can make money from this. I was going to ask, so that kind of leads to this question that I had in my mind was how, how is, what is the relationship with the funeral industrial complex? And are they likely to, is there, is there a healthy way for them to be a part of this conversation? And is there something we should be guarding against as far as their

Annalouiza (27:25.293)
it

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:46.128)
know, picking it up and walking and running off with it.

Reverend Bodhi Be (27:46.923)
There's probably a lot of answers to that, but I think right away what comes to me is it's the difference between a nonprofit organization and a for-profit organization. And no matter how well-meaning the funeral home is downtown, at the bottom line, they're selling. And in fact, they're pressured and motivated to upsell. And so at the core of any conversation, including psychedelics, there's even more sensitivity around

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:51.368)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:05.812)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:06.901)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:10.175)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (28:17.006)
it, which again why this has to be ministry and not for profit and sacred service. know, Annalisa said something about getting up and demonstrating to your community, you know, that is the work of ministry. And now I'm starting to actually train ministers in the Sufi lineage. And I did this extensive training to become a minister in the Sufi lineage that goes back at least a thousand years. But the final exam was when I was told to get up in front of everybody and demonstrate

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:22.857)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:24.536)
Yep.

Annalouiza (28:33.634)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:41.735)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Reverend Bodhi Be (28:46.204)
your ministry, right? And you had to do that, and now I've been doing that ever since, and get called on for all kinds of memorials and funerals and et cetera, and I feel fortunate and honored to be useful in that way. That's big work, but that's what ministry is about. It's about helping people become deeper people and, you know, and all.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:47.732)
haha

Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:50.284)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:55.906)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:00.012)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:06.708)
Yeah.

Reverend Bodhi Be (29:12.06)
And another way to say that is to come into the deep relationship of the self and of their soul and of God, whatever name you give to it.

Annalouiza (29:13.612)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:22.542)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:22.65)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, very good. Okay, well, let's see. Anything else that you can think of that we missed that we should speak to? I know one thing you said earlier that you're right that Ana Luisa and I are very familiar with, but maybe people who are listening are not. And I'm trying to remember what it is now, which is the, what was it? I'm remember. I'm gonna have to go back and look at the transcript or something.

Anyway, if it comes back, if it was in my head, now it's gone. If it comes back, we'll talk about it. Anything else, buddy, that you'd like to make sure people know before the.

Annalouiza (29:52.856)
We'll talk about it. We'll do another PSA.

Reverend Bodhi Be (29:58.879)
We covered a lot of ground. That was a lot. And I appreciate every piece you added to it that helped kind of stir a little more out of me too. yeah. We covered a bit. We covered a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:05.652)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:14.568)
Yeah, yeah, well, I'm very glad we could.

Okay, well good. Well, we'll make sure this gets up soon so that people know and can start planning to get over to Maui. I think I would love to do that. have, well, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:29.39)
I know, was gonna say, after this I was gonna wait to say afterwards, can I make this happen?

Reverend Bodhi Be (30:30.186)
Come on, I want you to be there, come. Come, come, come. People that come through this site will give a discount too.

Annalouiza (30:35.968)
I wish I could, I will look at the dates and see what happens.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:42.962)
Mm-hmm. yeah. There you go.

Reverend Bodhi Be (30:43.188)
So maybe you'll post the link and I have an image of the flyer. Maybe I could send to you that you could stick in here somewhere.

Annalouiza (30:43.488)
All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:53.8)
Yeah, definitely that's a good idea. Sounds good. yeah, that is bring raise that raise the question is there scholarship funds at all for anybody that.

Annalouiza (30:54.254)
Okay.

Reverend Bodhi Be (30:59.316)
There are scholarship funds and you know as much as we need to charge tuition we want to balance that out with the people that really want to be there and can't afford to be there or the people that need to be there and can't afford to be there. We want to help people be there and that's what we've done with every program and training from the beginning. So we make sure that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:23.06)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Reverend Bodhi Be (31:26.154)
people that really want to be there and need to be there, we have discounts too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:32.947)
Okay. Yeah. So, so for both the people who might need that help and the people who could provide that help, make sure that you're paying attention and offer the, you know, participate in this in any way you can. Well, wonderful. Thank you so much, Bodhi. So good to see you again and looking forward to seeing you soon. I'll be out there in February, Insha'Allah. January. Yeah. January 1st. Maybe I'll just stay there. I mean, why not? You know, why, why, why go home?

Annalouiza (31:33.357)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:38.744)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:45.678)
Thank you.

Reverend Bodhi Be (31:49.566)
No, January. Come in January. January third to the eighth.

Annalouiza (31:49.952)
Inshallah.

Annalouiza (32:00.354)
Yeah, sounds amazing. Okay, bye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:02.89)
All right. Thank you very much. it looks like everything, let me just double check, everything's uploaded well. So thanks, Bodhi. We'll talk to you again soon. Much love.

Reverend Bodhi Be (32:03.328)
Thank you both very much.

Reverend Bodhi Be (32:12.532)
Beautiful. And I love that link so I can spread it out myself.

Thank you. Thank you both.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:19.37)
Yep, it was

All right, take care.

Annalouiza (32:27.374)
That's an interesting conversation again.

Annalouiza (32:33.613)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:37.25)
Well, and I think there's a lot, this actually could be another place for us to do deep dives because I have my misgivings about folks, especially white people taking medicine. And I'm grateful that there is some kind of relief for people who have mental illnesses and are dying with really hard spaces. So it's both appreciative and curiously wondering.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:43.316)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:55.294)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:03.604)
Well, and I appreciate that he's thinking about that too, and that he's holding it as sacred and as non-profit. I mean, that makes a huge difference in my mind anyway, when it comes to that stuff is that we, if we are going to exploit, extract, yeah, exploit, extract, yeah, that we do that. we feel like there's a reason for, I mean, it's true, our world is so open now. We have so much access to so many things.

Annalouiza (33:07.18)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (33:19.946)
Extract, exploit. Yeah, take. That's just taking.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:33.436)
and we can decide we don't want to do that. But maybe that's not fair to the people who can benefit from it, right? So if there's a way that we can help people benefit from it and still be honoring and sacred and thoughtful about it, that's, think, what we all have to do. And that's kind of what he spoke to, I think, and what he's trying to do.

Annalouiza (33:53.912)
And also, yeah, and also, mean, it could be beneficial, but there are lots of tools to help people. Plants are, know, plant medicine is not the only, and people want to because they think that's like the end all. And I just, you know, I keep going back to like breath work, you know, there's like, break is so many other tools in this tool chest. And, you know, it's kind of a sexy thing these days, everybody wants to do shrooms. So, you know, I'm holding it with like a both hand for myself. So, okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:59.944)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:05.738)
Yeah, that's the point. Mm-hmm. Reiki, yeah.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:17.757)
Yeah

I love it. Yeah, I love it. That's important. And that's why you should go to the conference. I'll help you. If I can, maybe we'll both go. We'll see. All right. Much love. Adios.

Annalouiza (34:25.166)
I should, I really should. I'm like, wait a second. of order. Okay. We'll see. All right. Much love. Adios. Ciao.