What Happens When We Face Death Together?

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This video highlights perspectives on death, emphasizing the importance of understanding grief and the dying process. We explore how different rituals can help us cope with the emotions surrounding loss, assisting people during death education. Understanding natural death and the experiences of final days is an essential part of the journey.

In this conversation, we host a group of guests from the Blessing Your Journey retreat who discuss their personal experiences with death and how it has shaped their lives and work. The guests share their insights on the importance of community, support, and the healing process surrounding death. They delve into the structure of their retreats, emphasizing the blend of information, ritual, and emotional support provided to participants. The discussion also touches on self-care practices for those working in the field of death and dying, and the significance of creating a safe space for sharing and healing.

Blessing Your Journey June 2026

 Wild Grief: https://wildgrief.org/

Transcript

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:04.553)
Welcome everyone. I am the Reverend Wakeel David Matthews. On today's episode, we are looking forward to meeting a group of folks from the Blessing Your Journey retreat that they facilitate together in Washington state. First, we have Karen Lohman, who's had a little trouble with her camera, so you'll just have to imagine her. She's the lover of earth and her wisdom. She's a grandmother, an artist, a former hospital and hospice chaplain.

Annalouiza (00:22.52)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:30.825)
and she travels in the rich world of death professionally since 2004. Lately, she's been sowing one-of-a-kind burial shrouds. Very cool. She is passionate about giving her body back to the earth. She is lay ordained as a Buddhist interspiritual chaplain.

Annalouiza (00:40.034)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (00:51.188)
And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luis Armendariz. And another of our lovely guests today is Hillary Hauptman. She is passionate about connecting individuals to a wide spectrum of resources to empower them towards the end of life and death experiences that they desire. She has spent decades of work in the aging and intergenerational field, developing programs and giving presentations related to health promotion.

caregiving, and advanced care planning. She gathers deep nourishment in nature, exploring creative passions, and connecting with others of various ages. Welcome. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:31.081)
So great, yeah. And I got to meet her at her retreat where we sang together. So what could be better than that, right? And finally, we have Leanne Turtle Lot. Leanne is awed by the magic in nature's connections and cherishes the healing support she finds out of doors. She has an MA in environmental education and she taught kindergarten through college. In the death and dying field, life has been her teacher.

Hilarie (01:31.871)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (01:37.207)
So cool.

Annalouiza (01:42.476)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:56.861)
Her father died when she was nine. Both her partner and mother went on hospice the same day. From there, she worked and volunteered for hospice, then worked as a lay interfaith minister and became certified as an advanced care directive facilitator. Leanne has been doing family bereavement group facilitation for 15 years and is now co-leading death and dying retreats. So glad to have all of you. Thanks. Yeah, this is going to be a fun conversation.

Annalouiza (02:21.228)
So cool, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:25.393)
So we will go through our questions, but we really want to hear your story. So be sure to pipe in in any place and everybody has to answer every question, but as much as you want to just share, let us know. So we always like to begin by learning from our guests when they first became aware of death. So anybody want to pick that up first?

Leeann Tourtillott (02:51.888)
I'd say I first became aware of death when the tadpoles I was raising in the backyard got out of the container and died. I was probably eight or nine, but I was crushed. I thought it was my responsibility to take care of them, and I tried. It really became very real when my father died, when I was nine years old.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:00.42)
Annalouiza (03:00.462)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (03:11.534)
Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (03:21.854)
That was a very poignant experience, I have to say. One of six kids and all of a sudden there was no dad.

Annalouiza (03:25.038)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:31.859)
Yeah, wow. That's intense, yeah. Maybe move your mic a little closer, still a little soft. Thank you. And talk a little louder maybe. To speak loud, that'll help. Okay, Hilary, did you want to share anything or I don't know if Karen can hear us or can speak, but if you want to jump in, feel free to.

Leeann Tourtillott (03:41.482)
Thank you.

Hilarie (03:55.111)
Yeah, for me the first memory is I was about six years old and I overheard my parents talking about their will and I thought that that meant that they were going to be dying soon.

Annalouiza (04:09.422)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (04:09.446)
and they assured me this is just what they do for planning purposes. So I was in the upper elementary school years when my grandfather died in the hospital. And I remember having a feeling of responsibility, like somehow I hadn't thought positively enough.

But it wasn't really until my 20s when my aunt was dying of AIDS that I understood perhaps I could do some preparing to help her that I started to get much more embracing of the fact that people die in a whole variety of ways.

Annalouiza (04:50.568)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm, you're not any different than so many people, right? Like animals, childhood, grandparents, there is that moment and then life's just, just looks different, right? So would you share how death has been kind of sprinkled throughout your life to bring you to this moment and doing the work that you do?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:50.579)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:59.273)
haha

Leeann Tourtillott (05:18.524)
I think that for me, as Wachil mentioned, my mother and my husband went on hospice the same day. You know, I'd experienced the death of my father and that was handled so differently. I know my mother was sent home and given valium to give to the children and send them to bed. And.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:42.343)
Wow. Yeah. And now you need to move your mic down a little more again. We're going to get this right eventually. Yeah.

Annalouiza (05:47.256)
Yeah.

Leeann Tourtillott (05:47.803)
Sure.

Thank you, I appreciate the pointers. So, and then it was pretty much pushed aside as in, know, you're going to stir things up and make it worse if you talk about this. this was in the early 60s. I was just a kid and I was going along with whatever everybody else thought was a good idea. Well,

You know, you leap forward quite a few years and my husband is diagnosed with a terminal cancer and I've got two kids at home that I'm caring for and it's like, you know, I don't think I want to do this that way. You know, life had taught me a few things in 50 years and...

I did my best to be open with my kids and tell them exactly what was going on, be patient with what they could actually hear. And I was very fortunate to have the partner of Karen Lohman who had a home funeral business.

the two of them together. had her in my life as well. And so she was an excellent, excellent support person. And I really tried to approach it as open as I could and with the understanding that this is part of life. It was poignant to learn the separation of those two different approaches and

Leeann Tourtillott (07:18.227)
you know, really hope that what I'd done was the best thing I could do for my kids and for myself and for my partner. So having that experience, I went into doing hospice work. And from there, it just steamrolled. It turned out I had an ability to actually stay present and be able to speak and to be able to relate to people and be able to listen. And it just felt like the universe

Annalouiza (07:23.094)
Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (07:46.314)
drugged me along and here I am. And the fact that I met these two wonderful women that I just love dearly. just, we're so different and we bring different elements to the, you know, the workshops that we do. But it just, it's magic and we're the universe or whatever you want to call it. It's, it feels like good work.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:48.883)
You

Annalouiza (08:01.102)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:07.955)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Okay, I want to try something here because we're still getting a lot of noise. If you go to your, and we'll let the editor deal with this pause here. If you go to down below where it says mic.

Annalouiza (08:10.84)
Yeah.

Leeann Tourtillott (08:27.218)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:28.051)
Can you pick, is there another mic you could pick? Like maybe the one for your computer, like Microsoft or microphone array or something.

Annalouiza (08:35.214)
Now you're muted.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:38.578)
I'm muted?

Annalouiza (08:39.717)
No, no.

Leeann Tourtillott (08:39.951)
It says external microphone and I could switch to the MacBook Air microphone and just take the head. Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:46.003)
Why don't you try that? No, you could leave the headphones on and still have that as your speaker, but you could just.

Leeann Tourtillott (08:51.347)
Well, it's not allowing me to select.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:56.965)
Okay, maybe because we're already recording.

Annalouiza (08:59.054)
Yeah. Well, Keel, you know, it was, it was a little difficult, but I liked, there wasn't a lot of feedback with farther away. And if you could just speak with a determination like here, here. All right. You're muted.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:03.537)
It's better when it's farther away.

Yeah, just speak. Yeah. Okay. I'll unmute you. There you go.

Annalouiza (09:17.486)
OK, try it again. Let's see. now she's muted again. There.

Leeann Tourtillott (09:20.829)
I have a deep voice, it often doesn't pick up as well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:23.815)
Okay, yeah, just that's great. That's better. And like I said, yeah, the app will do the work for us. So it's all good. Thank you so much for taking care of that. Okay, where were we? Okay. Yeah, Hillary. How is this impacted? Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:24.066)
That sounds better though, right there. It was just really prickly.

Annalouiza (09:32.556)
Okay, yes.

Leeann Tourtillott (09:34.355)
Certainly.

Annalouiza (09:37.826)
Hillary, Hillary, how has death impacted the story of your life?

Hilarie (09:41.989)
Yeah, well, I was fortunate when I was 20 years old. I met a wonderful mentor and she began my many decades in the aging field. So I have the privilege of being with people who are both independent and others who are dealing with needing residential care and watching people grow older.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:53.289)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:05.907)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (10:06.074)
And I was fascinated by that and recognizing there are so many different ways of being in the world in the later chapters of life. And it really wasn't until my husband and I had a one-year-old son and his 30-year-old son had just been diagnosed with liver cancer. And it was not.

Annalouiza (10:06.232)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Annalouiza (10:14.606)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (10:27.494)
the good kind of liver cancer. And we would go up every day to Seattle and my husband would massage Joe's feet. And one day Jody said to Joe, you know, if it weren't for Gabe, I'd want to take your place. And Joe said, but why dad? Then I couldn't have learned these two important lessons.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:41.884)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:50.969)
Wow, yeah.

Hilarie (10:52.563)
Jody said, what lessons? And Joe said to ask for help and let the love in.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:59.473)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:59.56)
Mmm. Ugh. I just got goosebumps. Wow.

Hilarie (11:02.91)
And for somebody really at the prime of life to have gotten it, we say that Joe graduated early with very, very profound. And I would say, and that was almost 30 years ago, I would say since then, I have been just fascinated and passionate.

Annalouiza (11:08.942)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:20.658)
Hmm.

Hilarie (11:27.618)
about learning about different ways to face end of life and then what are our options at death for aftercare and disposition. And like Leanne, I am so honored to have Karen and Leanne. We do a lot of work processing and allowing space for each of our talents and strengths. And then we get the privilege

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:36.765)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:37.035)
All

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:42.675)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (11:57.447)
of being with people willing to show up for three, four, five days and trust the circle and trust the process and together we grow together. So it's been a beautiful week. We've this three times and we have a couple more in the works and it's truly an honor.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:00.477)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:00.6)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:12.546)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:20.297)
Wonderful. And I have one more idea, not for Leanne this time, but what if you called Karen back and put her on speaker and we can just listen to her there because she's muted on this end and won't cause any trouble. And then if she wants to make a comment, that would be lovely.

Annalouiza (12:20.418)
Mmm.

Hilarie (12:28.307)
Okay.

Hilarie (12:33.086)
So I will call her.

be lovely. And will I put her up against my microphone? Okay, that's great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:44.551)
Yeah, as close as you can. It was coming through pretty well before. But when we get there in the meantime.

Annalouiza (12:52.622)
In the meantime, what Kayla's going to say, because we have so many people and I have limited time today, should we just pick like two more questions to like really focus on their current work and...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:56.199)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, let's go through. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, let's just let them talk more about their.

Hilarie (13:08.068)
I, so the suggestion is, I don't know if you heard it, that I put you up to our microphone and that you respond that way. What do you think? We can give it a try. Okay. Well, I think you're coming in well and have my volume up and you can just tell me if we're getting any mic feedback. Okay. Cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:19.922)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:22.082)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:27.576)
Yeah, that sounds good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:27.689)
Yeah, maybe just Karen, if you could just speak to like what, know, when you first became aware of death and how that's affected your life up till now. And then we'd like to hear from all of you about what the work you're doing basically.

Hilarie (13:45.468)
Yeah, I first experienced death and I'm hearing myself as an echo, so let me take off my headphones.

Hilarie (13:56.593)
Yeah, now you'll just hear me.

Annalouiza (13:59.353)
Now it's echoey.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:59.599)
Now we're getting an echo.

Hilarie (14:00.766)
You know, we're going get in the echo.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:04.253)
You'll need to wear your headphones, but maybe just put up with your echo because we're not hearing it.

Hilarie (14:10.558)
I'll just pretend I don't hear that. Anyway, I first experienced death also as a young person. I was probably about eight or nine in the school playground where I grew up in San Francisco. And an elderly couple were walking by arm and arm and the woman just collapsed and urinated and her husband was patting her hand trying to get her to revive.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:13.158)
haha

Hilarie (14:37.96)
but she died right there. And a friend and I ran down the street to a friend's home to call 911. So that was the first time.

death has impacted me like so many. My dad had a brain tumor when I was 30 and had two young children, an infant and a toddler. And I helped care for him. His death was lingering and I found myself really comfortable at the bedside and as a caregiver.

And that was kind of my gateway into intimacy with death.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:26.921)
Great. Yeah. Well, we'd love to hear you all share more about the work you're doing. Tell us more about how that looks, how often you do it, that kind of thing. Tell us a day in the life of the retreat. Yeah, who's showing up?

Annalouiza (15:43.342)
And who's coming? Who's coming to hang out?

Leeann Tourtillott (15:53.469)
The silence is deafening. You know, quite a few friends, folks that we know through our inner faith community and then from there it's, there's a lot of word of mouth. We've advertised at libraries and senior centers, those kinds of places. We've done the retreat at a retreat center on Orcas Island, but we've also done it non-residential here in Olympia.

The retreat is multi-day. We feel strongly about feeding the participants so that they can be very present. It's a real mixture of sort of didactic information, but it's always infused with the sense of feeling and community and we, you know, encourage people. It's okay to laugh. It's okay to cry. We always make sure that folks know that

what goes into this group is to stay in this group, to hold that as private and special. We've had people that have cancer attend the workshop. We have people who are grieving the loss of a loved one. We have folks that are just wanting to get their advanced care directives done, but then find out that really processing what death is can facilitate their ability to actually make those

moves and that the resistance might have been some of the fear that's involved with for all of us. Fear of that unknown. You know we have different areas of expertise. I often will jump in with the history and the carbon footprint of different ways for disposition. Hillary is a mountain.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:29.843)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:40.521)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (17:42.965)
Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (17:45.7)
of amazing information and connections and resources. And I'd say that Karen's ability to run ritual, which I think is so important and so rich, so important, I'm always awed by that.

Annalouiza (17:45.742)
You

Annalouiza (17:58.721)
so important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:05.809)
Hmm. Great. Great.

Hilarie (18:10.374)
And it seems like we have figured out how to kind of blend in the ritual, the sharing of information, the internal work, the dyads, the music, the art, the movement. And so, and we're always changing, you know, and every group is different. we're, I would say,

Annalouiza (18:22.208)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So wonderful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:25.641)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (18:29.878)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:30.249)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (18:35.818)
I, we are always amazed. All it takes is us coming together, having dinner, and then opening up with a question. And that sense of group closeness and trust is there for the rest of the, the rest of the.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:38.653)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (18:39.463)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:44.098)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (18:51.074)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:52.401)
Yeah, yeah, we have that experience over and over again in this.

Annalouiza (18:54.446)
We do. We truly do. And you know what I really love hearing from you too? I can imagine this and it seems like such a swaddling that you like you give to these people who are showing up and I appreciate it and I honor your work. And I also love that. It's it's like you're birthing a new you, right? Like this is what it takes. I need it. I need to feed you. I need to hear your story. I need to, you know, do you want a little music?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:05.737)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:23.214)
What is babies as we're going like, you know, we're always babies. We're always going to be new, you know, newly, newly. I don't know. As we go into the space, because we've never experienced some of these things before. So I adore this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:25.342)
Ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:31.453)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:39.185)
Yeah, it's so wonderful. Karen, do you have anything to add to the way this process works for you?

Hilarie (19:45.934)
Yeah, it's been so rich, tender and...

Hilarie (19:53.011)
been amazed at how Hillary, Leanne and I have been able to flex and really respond to each group that we've worked with and the cultivating as Leanne's and Hillary both said, cultivating of a container that's safe and fun. We have a lot of laughter, a lot of tears and we dive deep really quickly. It's been an honor.

Annalouiza (20:01.518)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:12.01)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. I want to go. I love this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:21.139)
Yeah, yeah. Well, we're definitely going to have to sign up.

Leeann Tourtillott (20:22.759)
Yeah, it's more.

Annalouiza (20:25.088)
Yes, we are. mean, and you know, and on this podcast, if you've listened, we honor all kinds of grief. And, know, you may have people with, you know, humans dying, pets dying, dreams dying. But what you are offering is so precious and so many people need this and they don't know where to go to find it. So I appreciate your work.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:50.473)
Yeah. How long have you been doing this now?

Hilarie (20:55.292)
We started two summers ago. So basically we've been doing about one a year and in the next year we're going to be doing two.

Annalouiza (20:59.372)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:59.56)
Okay.

Annalouiza (21:06.924)
And how many people are invited into this space?

Hilarie (21:13.566)
anywhere from 12 to 20.

Annalouiza (21:16.876)
Okay, all ages are welcome or it's all good. Okay.

Hilarie (21:21.158)
Yes. The first year was lovely. We had some young people aged 35 and then we had two mother-daughter couples and the mothers were 90, 91 and so we've had brother-sister, couples, parent-child and it's very beautiful to watch family members be willing and supporting each other through the process.

Annalouiza (21:31.191)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:34.953)
You

Annalouiza (21:38.774)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (21:45.252)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:51.226)
wow. That's so good. So important. What a blessing. Resource.

Annalouiza (21:57.559)
So would you say that every one of your retreats will be formatted differently, that you spend some time just kind of asking spirit to like help you make it up? Or do you have a format that you do every single time exactly the same way, even though the people and the energy will change? But do you just have your guide?

Leeann Tourtillott (22:18.159)
It's changed each time, definitely. There are elements that we have used repeatedly because we felt they were so positive and rich. And then something new will come to our attention and say, no, we're going to use this and we're going to replace that. And like you said, it's going to morph with different people.

Annalouiza (22:20.396)
Mm-hmm

Annalouiza (22:26.508)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:32.246)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (22:40.134)
I've often been fascinated because I'm in the field of education and I've often been like, have to be the person standing there that's the expert and you're supposed to tell everybody everything. Hillary and Karen and I can just stop and look at each other and say, we want to talk to each other right now and decide where we're going. It's part of that magic I was referring to is that,

Annalouiza (22:47.903)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:01.346)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (23:03.301)
you know, we can feel our way through to the right way to spend extra time here or to pause there or everybody needs a break. Let's go outside and walk. I want to do a song. I want to do a poem. So it really flexes tremendously and it's really, it's very organic. It's hard to describe.

Annalouiza (23:05.454)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:13.912)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:20.076)
Yes.

Annalouiza (23:26.368)
Mm-hmm. I understand that only because, know, while Kiel and I are spiritual directors and we're supposed to be listening to, you know, like intuiting. you are just, you're just doing this. You're, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:33.746)
Yeah.

Leeann Tourtillott (23:33.831)
to, you know, like intuiting. you are.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:39.229)
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you're able to pause and I mean, it's part of the work as spiritual director, I often just say, hold on, I just need a minute to listen, you know, and I can see that that's what you guys are doing as a trio. You're actually taking the time. I love that. That's really important and really discerning of you to know that that's a thing that needs to happen. And it also is, you're also teaching by doing that. You're showing people that, you know, they don't just have to plow ahead. They can listen, they can pay attention.

Annalouiza (24:01.934)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:08.536)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:09.327)
and actually get something from that still small voice. From the still small voice, yeah. Yeah, and you can change your mind. Walking the grass, yeah.

Annalouiza (24:12.364)
And you can change your mind, you know, you can, you can change your mind. It's a poem and not a song this time, or it's, you know, take your shoes off and like dance. I don't know, you know, exactly. So I really appreciate that. So, what do you want to ask?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:25.747)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:29.971)
Well, maybe, kind of end up, you know, kind of move toward the end here because we want to let Andaluisa get out of here. But, we always like to know what kind of resources you have for yourselves when it's feeling like you're overwhelmed. what kind of things do you do to resource your own, yourselves when, when you're, when you're like, when you need help, probably each other, but you know, what other resources do you guys,

Annalouiza (24:35.992)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:53.922)
when the work is heavy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:59.891)
Turn two.

Leeann Tourtillott (25:03.347)
outside. Something good will happen.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:04.807)
Yeah.

Hilarie (25:04.923)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:07.345)
You

Yeah. Do you remember that old game show where they have the three different choices? You know, I don't remember what it was, but they, they, are number one answer to that question is go outside.

Annalouiza (25:19.619)
Hahaha

That's right. That's right.

Hilarie (25:24.606)
Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's also being inspired by others. There are folks here in Washington, both in our Olympia area and on Orcas Island, who are doing some wonderful work around death. And sometimes it's just listening to their progress or their needs and remembering all that.

Annalouiza (25:30.217)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:37.102)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:48.413)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (25:49.66)
all the wonderful things that continue to evolve that we can all be a part of.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:55.421)
Yeah, yeah, that's inspiring. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:56.119)
Yes, it is. I'm inspired by you, all three of you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:00.637)
Yeah, it's great.

Hilarie (26:02.751)
And I, Karen? I was just going to say for me, movement and singing often really resources me.

Annalouiza (26:12.044)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:12.126)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, Hillary and I had a great time singing for a week. How long was that? It a week or something, right? It was really great. Yeah, that's big one for me as well. Well, wonderful. We really appreciate you guys showing up and giving us your a lot of information. We'll post in our newsletter and of course it'll be in the show notes, but in our newsletter next time, anything you've got coming up.

Hilarie (26:22.558)
So good.

Annalouiza (26:22.734)
That's so great.

Annalouiza (26:28.302)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:34.894)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:39.613)
Basically, we try to put stuff in that's coming up in the next month or so. So as something comes, be sure and let us know.

Annalouiza (26:45.23)
And what would you, what do you wish we'd asked you? That's like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:49.467)
Is there anything left that you wish we'd asked?

Leeann Tourtillott (26:58.246)
I don't know, I can't help but want to make a plug for a group that I volunteer with called Wild Grief. It's a family bereavement program and they definitely serve the underserved. Where they take kids outside, they take kids backpacking, they take families camping that have never camped before and do this wrap around that we're talking about and give them a place to...

Annalouiza (27:04.663)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:20.718)
Mm-hmm.

Leeann Tourtillott (27:22.982)
share with their peers what's going on for them and normalize death and normalize grief and it's just such a beautiful, beautiful organization.

Annalouiza (27:25.646)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Annalouiza (27:34.53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:34.703)
Excellent. Yeah, definitely make sure we have a link for that. So we'll put that in the show notes. Yeah. Great. Yeah.

Leeann Tourtillott (27:38.628)
Yeah, it's in the links.

Hilarie (27:42.791)
And for me, I'm getting ready to facilitate two book groups on this book that's really meaningful to me, which is about getting clear about what it is that I want and how do I communicate it and how do we support each other. And I know a lot of people are ready for those kinds of conversations.

Annalouiza (27:44.344)
yeah.

Annalouiza (27:51.63)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:57.667)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:07.881)
Can you say the name and author?

Annalouiza (28:08.364)
right.

Hilarie (28:10.814)
Sure, sure. It's called Finish Strong. Put your priorities first at life's end. And it's by Barbara Coombs Lee, and that's C-O-O-N-B-S Lee, L-E-E. And she's somebody with a tremendous amount of experience and she some wonderful tips. For example, turn on your phone and for two minutes talk about your values that you want.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:14.12)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:34.062)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:39.977)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (28:40.108)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (28:40.926)
expected at the end of life. And I'm looking forward to having other people who are passionate about that. to that. Yes, I'll just make up on a bash plug for showing six of my biodegradable one of a kind shrouds at Olympia fall arts walk, which is the first

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:48.925)
Yeah, sounds great. What a great idea.

Annalouiza (28:49.186)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:09.036)
Mm-hmm.

Hilarie (29:11.39)
and I'm with a group show sponsored by Death Dancer.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:17.386)
Mm We just yeah, we just interviewed them. Thank you.

Annalouiza (29:17.795)
yeah, we just had them on.

Hilarie (29:20.53)
Jenny, thanks. Yes, she's curating that show.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:26.153)
Great. Yeah. So if you're in Olympia, definitely check that out. And maybe if you can send us some pictures that we can post, that would be great. That'd be really good. Well, thank you again. You guys are amazing. What amazing work you're doing. I really appreciate you.

Annalouiza (29:26.518)
wonderful. I love it.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (29:38.751)
Amazing.

Hilarie (29:41.182)
Thank you both for the work that you're doing and the conversations you're having.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:43.869)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:46.038)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:46.311)
We did get a poem sent to us. Would you like us to read it or you want one of you want to read it? Learning from trees.

Hilarie (29:57.74)
Why don't you read it?

Leeann Tourtillott (29:58.054)
That was Carol's.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:59.921)
Okay, yeah, we can do that. let me say you want to go with this.

Annalouiza (30:03.904)
Sure. I just have a quick question. It's got that, if we could, and then across this waiting in the fine darkness, is that the last sentence? Is that why it's up there?

Hilarie (30:15.228)
Hillary, I defer to you. OK.

Leeann Tourtillott (30:17.708)
It is the last line of the poem got pushed up to the top of the page.

Annalouiza (30:17.814)
Well, OK, so I will read that at the end because I was like, is it? That's right. OK. And I'm going to really like this, think. Learning from trees, Grace Butcher, 2017. If we could, like the trees, practice dying, do it every year just as something we do.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:21.763)
Okay. Yeah, me too. I was like, where's that go?

Hilarie (30:26.846)
Great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:30.888)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:46.53)
Like going on vacation or celebrating birthdays, it would become as easy a part of us as our hair or clothing. Someone would show us how to lie down and fade away as if in deepest meditation. And we would learn about the fine, dark emptiness, both knowing it and not knowing it. And coming back would be irrelevant.

Whatever it is the trees know, when they stand undone, surprisingly intricate, we need to know. Also, so we can allow that last thing to happen to us as if it were only any ordinary thing, leaves and lives falling away, the spirit complex.

waiting in the fine darkness to learn which way it will go. Yum.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:49.533)
Mmm, yum. Waiting in the fine darkness, yeah. Wow.

Annalouiza (31:54.799)
Mm This this is almost like a very modern take on Thanatopsis, the William Cullen Bryant one where he says like he wraps the mantle around him and like reclines onto that couch. It's like it's kind of like that. It's like waiting in the fine darkness to learn which way it will go. Mm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:09.893)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:16.625)
Yeah, and you can't go wrong learning from trees.

Annalouiza (32:19.726)
No, never. Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:24.871)
Well, thank you again. You guys just really, really touched our hearts and appreciate you taking the time.

Hilarie (32:28.382)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (32:32.8)
Yes, and ladies, you know, may the magical spirit continue to infuse your retreats and bring the people who need to find you because you are doing sacred work.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:43.305)
Absolutely. All right. We'll say bye-bye to y'all. Adios.

Annalouiza (32:45.816)
Thank you.

Adios!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:55.001)
Yay.

Annalouiza (32:59.118)
I gotta go to this retreat.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:00.425)
Yeah, absolutely. It's only three hours away from you by plane.

Annalouiza (33:06.924)
Yeah, I don't know. think these women are very inspirational. it is magic that is pouring from these three people. But they're creating this space. sounds like they all bring their gifts. And they are all kind of intuitive and got their spidey senses open. And they're there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:16.477)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:25.193)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and they keep it connected the whole time. I love that. That's so great. Yeah, I really enjoyed Hillary and I had some wonderful conversations at this retreat and I said, oh yeah, we got to have you on this podcast.

Annalouiza (33:39.087)
I love it. I'm so grateful for that. Yes. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:42.151)
Yeah, so what a blessing to meet yet another group of amazing people who are doing this work. yeah, so folks that are in Washington area, definitely find out about them and find a time to join them. All right, my dear, love you. Adios. All right.

Annalouiza (33:48.642)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:54.147)
Don't check it out. Yes. All right. I love you. Adios. I'll see you soon.