The Simple TRUTH About Medical Aid in Dying Laws

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This video discusses the death with dignity or medical aid in dying laws that have been in place for 30 years in the United States, emphasising that there have been no cases of coercion or abuse during this time. The speaker explains that safeguards are effective and that, if anything, families have tried to persuade loved ones not to use the law, but ultimately respected their wishes.

In this conversation, we speak with Mandi Zucker, who shares her personal experiences with loss and her reflections on what it means to face death, particularly in relation to her family and the legacy she hopes to leave behind.

Mandi has been working to change the law in New York State to allow people to choose medical aid in dying, and appeals to everyone to let the governor know you support her signing this into law by the end of the year.

End of Life Choices New York

Transcript

Mandi Zucker (00:00)
...there's actually been no cases of coercion or abuse in the 30 years that this bill has, this law has been around in the United States. So we feel very good about the safeguards that are in place. And if there's any coercion, it's been the opposite way. It's been that people have wanted to use it and their family members have begged them not to, and then they haven't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:02)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (00:10)
Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah.

and don't want them. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:19)
Yeah,

Annalouiza (00:57)
Welcome friends. I am the Reverend Mother Annalouiza Armendariz and today we get to meet and speak with Mandy Zucker. Mandy has over 25 years of experience in the field of death, dying and bereavement. Her original plan was to work with children and she has a bachelor's degree in child development and care from the University of Pittsburgh. She then earned a master's in social work from New York City, New York University and accidentally fell into grief work.

when she was offered a per diem position at a hospice working in the Children's Bereavement Program.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:32)
Wow, that's really important. Glad you're here to talk about that. I am Reverend Wakil David Matthews. So Mandy ended up working full-time in a hospice for 12 years and then became the program director at the Children's Bereavement Center. She began volunteering for End of Life Choices in New York in 2011 and really has been working hard on that. And that's really part of the reason we wanted to have her join us today. And she's been executive director there for the past three years.

In this role, she focuses on advocacy and education for people with terminal illness, expanding options and improving care for people at the end of their lives. Thank you so much for the work you do. Very, very important. ⁓

Annalouiza (02:12)
Yes, thank you for being here with us Mandy.

Mandi Zucker (02:15)
Thank you so much for having me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:17)
And we like to start and just ask about your first experience with death in your own life.

Mandi Zucker (02:25)
So my first experience was my goldfish IRA.

I named all my goldfish after ⁓ people at my dad's office. I don't know how that sort of happened, but Ira was one of his colleagues who is, we'll say a larger man, and my goldfish, Ira, was also a larger goldfish. He got to the food the fastest, and one day I noticed him sort of sinking to the bottom of the fish tank and all of the other

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:38)
Hahaha.

You

Mandi Zucker (03:01)
fish started sort of pecking at him ⁓ and I was screaming at the goldfish and begging them to leave him alone and you know my dad came over and explained that Ira had died ⁓ and wasn't able to swim anymore and wasn't going to be able to eat his little goldfish pellets and ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:09)
you

Annalouiza (03:16)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:23)
you

Mandi Zucker (03:25)
happened to have the chicken pox at the time ⁓ and I wasn't allowed outside but my dad put Ira in a little Lord and Taylor watch box. ⁓ I know and we buried him outside. I stood in the kitchen looking out the window and my dad and my sister went outside and placed him in the ground. I'm Jewish so I didn't know a lot about funerals but I thought we were supposed to

Annalouiza (03:38)
So cute.

Mandi Zucker (03:55)
say something, like I felt like there's supposed to be a ritual. So I was like screaming through the window, say the shma, say the shma, which was like the only prayer I like memorized at that point. So they did that for me and yeah, it was sort of like a moving, you know, experience. And I was very grateful that my parents understood the importance of ritual around death and dying.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:02)
You

Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:21)
Well, and the fact that it was so instinctual for you that something had to be said, I think that's phenomenal, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:27)
Yeah, absolutely.

And the shmaaz

Mandi Zucker (04:29)
I was a very wise eight-year-old.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:30)
makes sense. That's great. And I also love that, you we've talked a lot about ritual here and just that, you know, that you went through the process and you thought, okay, this is part of this. This is what I need to have happen. And it wasn't just like, yeah, flush it down the toilet or whatever, you That does.

Annalouiza (04:31)
Ha

Mandi Zucker (04:48)
Right now.

Annalouiza (04:49)
Yeah. And that happens a lot. I'm always surprised when

people tell me that, like, that's just wrong. ⁓ Well, ⁓ that is such a, that's a beautiful story about Ira. I am very honored to hear this story. Bear witness to Ira's passing. And after Ira passed and you had this experience, how has death impacted the continuing years of your life?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:53)
Burial at sea.

Mandi Zucker (04:54)
I know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:03)
Thank you, yeah.

Mandi Zucker (05:04)
Thank you.

You know, it's a really interesting question. I didn't really think about death and dying much after that. ⁓

thought I wanted to work with children and I didn't take a death and dying class in graduate school. I thought death and dying happens to old people. It didn't cross my mind even that young people could be affected by an old person's death. Forget about the fact that young people also die. So it sort of found me and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:43)
Great.

Mandi Zucker (05:49)
And when I was asked to run this Children's Bereavement Program, I knew nothing about bereavement. But it really changed the course of my career and my life. ⁓

I found finally an opportunity to connect to people on such an intimate level, ⁓ even if it was for short periods of time. I ended up working in hospice for 12 years, so oftentimes we would only work with families for very short periods of time, but they were so incredibly grateful and there's this immediate connection that you make with people when you're talking about some of the most painful parts of their lives. And I found it to be incredibly rewarding.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:16)
Right.

Sure.

Mandi Zucker (06:32)
and actually life-affirming to work in this space.

Annalouiza (06:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:36)
Yeah, so

appreciate that. I think I'd really, thinking about what that's been like, what your life has been like, and especially that work with children, can you tell us more about your ⁓ work that you're doing now and more about that? think our audience would really appreciate learning more about what it's like working with children and working for people who've lost children for that matter.

Mandi Zucker (06:58)
Mmm.

current work really doesn't focus a lot on children. ⁓ It is mostly about people with terminal disease. And fortunately, most children don't end up with terminal diseases. But before that, ⁓ I worked in a children's bereavement center. So we supported children who had either parents or grandparents or siblings that had died ⁓ in a peer support kind of ⁓ model. So not therapy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Mandi Zucker (07:31)
counseling but ⁓ normalizing that this is you know a human experience and really for me like that's what's been so powerful so if I'm working with the children if I was working with adults ⁓ knowing that we all are going to die and in some ways we have some control ⁓ over that and helping to empower people to take control over their deaths has been incredibly rewarding I think

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (08:01)
We plan our high school graduations more than we plan our own deaths. And it's such a huge transition in our own lives and probably even more so for the people that are left behind. And we really don't put a lot of planning into that. And that has been incredibly rewarding to be able to help people to do that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:06)
Right.

Annalouiza (08:07)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:20)
you

Great. Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:24)
That is really interesting. Can you go back to that? You said that you did peer peer support with the kids and you said it's not therapy, it's peer support. Can you just give us a distinction between those? Because that is really interesting to me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, what's that look

like?

Mandi Zucker (08:40)
Yeah, so I always say it's therapeutic, it's not therapy, because it's not run by, ⁓ I happen to be a social worker. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:43)
Mm-hmm. All

Mandi Zucker (08:50)
we would mostly train volunteers to run our peer support programs, but they were not therapists or, our goal was really to put kids or their parents ⁓ in a room with other people who are going through similar things and validate for them what that experience was like. So we weren't really working individually with anybody. ⁓

to fix anything. We were trying to get people to understand that they're not alone. And I think that that's so powerful ⁓ when you're dealing with, you know, dying and grief in general.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:21)
That's

right. So I really do appreciate that. And especially if, you know, families have kind of entered into this realm where kids may need some support and a therapist or a counselor may not seem appropriate because it also puts like kids like in this, like hot seat, but a peer support, it has other people bearing witness to what you have just encountered. Right? So I think that is actually very therapeutic. I agree with like that word. It's beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:30)
All

All right.

Mandi Zucker (09:37)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:43)
Yep.

Yeah, yeah,

Mandi Zucker (09:48)
Mm-hmm, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:49)
yeah.

Mandi Zucker (09:49)
Mm-hmm, yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:50)
Yeah. And I think it also applies to terminal illness, which you're doing more of now. My wife has terminal illness as we speak, but she's doing really well. it took her a while to decide to get connected to organizations like that. But it's been a really big help for her to just talk to people who are going through the same thing and really compare notes. And just, again, I'm not the only one dealing with this right now.

Mandi Zucker (10:14)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:17)
That's really important. Yeah. And for caregivers.

Mandi Zucker (10:18)
That's right. We

host at End of Life Choices New York, we host these events, we call them legacy leagues. Some people may have heard of like death cafes and they're just opportunities to get together and talk to people about anything related to death and dying. And it's not, again, it's not therapy, it's just normalizing conversations. And I think that that is so powerful. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:46)
It is, really think that that's kind of one of the missing components of our human grind. Because I, yes, in this culture, especially because people, you know, don't want to talk about the hard things that they've just encountered. It's shameful that you're struggling. And then if you have, if you're brave enough to actually say the thing you're met with this glazed overlook, like, Ooh, I don't know what to say. Is a scary.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:53)
In this culture.

Annalouiza (11:15)
I don't want to mess this up, but you know, the, the, reality is like, we do need to be seen in other people's eyes and hearts and broths, right? Like, so going through a death event, it helps to be in community and be met. So anyhow, I think it's, it's very lovely. I really appreciate knowing more about that.

Mandi Zucker (11:30)
Yep. Absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

and the whole language around it that we're fighting, you know, and that we've lost, you know, if we go to if we go to hospitals like you're talking about hospices, often I think the statistics is only the last two weeks that people show up and they could have been in hospice and had that kind of care for six months, you know, or more. And and it's because of that stigma that we were giving up if we when we die or we lost the fight, you know. And I think that language is again.

Mandi Zucker (11:40)
Good.

Annalouiza (11:43)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

That's right.

Mandi Zucker (11:55)
Yeah.

Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:06)
what we're working on trying to change the conversation.

Annalouiza (12:09)
That's

right. So, but right now you are working at in New York, right for the end of life. ⁓ That's right. So tell us about the challenges that you're met there. What's going on?

Mandi Zucker (12:16)
End of Life Choices New York.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:24)
haha

Mandi Zucker (12:25)
I'll say challenges and opportunities.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:27)
Yeah, there you go. ⁓

Annalouiza (12:28)
That's right. I

like it.

Mandi Zucker (12:31)
Lots of opportunity right now. So we're really the only state specific organization in New York working to expand options and improve quality of life for people facing terminal illness. So we do a lot of advocacy work and education and support for families when they are facing some of the most difficult times in their lives. Our focus really this for the past 10 years, we actually initiated the medical aid and dying bill in

New York about 10 years ago.

familiar all of your audiences with medical aid and dying, but it's legal in 11 states and Washington DC. It's an option to hasten your death if you have a terminal diagnosis with six months or less to live and you can self ingest medication that would hasten your death if you are mentally competent and able to do so. ⁓ So we initiated that bill about 10 years ago and we've been working on it since this year. We have finally passed it through

both the Assembly and the Senate. And we are now waiting for Governor Hople to sign it into law. So it's quite, ⁓ I'm going to say an opportunity at the moment ⁓ as we're waiting for her to sign. And we've been ⁓ really working hard on because we do expect her to sign it. we've been working our most of our efforts have really been on ⁓ what we're going to do to implement that bill once she signs it. So in states right next door, there's New Jersey has this option.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:43)
Hehehe

Annalouiza (13:45)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:03)
Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (14:04)
And only 50 % of New Jerseyans know that it even exists. So we don't want that in New York. We want people to know that it's available to them and we want them to be able to access doctors and pharmacies and hospices and all of the things that you need to make sure you have a good death. So we're working on that right now.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:07)
Wow.

Annalouiza (14:08)
right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:23)
Yeah,

yeah.

Annalouiza (14:23)
That's,

that's, and it would be interesting to connect with all those folks working in different states because I bet you all their stories and trajectories through the communities have been very different.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:31)
Yeah, yeah. What was

your? ⁓

Mandi Zucker (14:34)
Well, it's interesting because we would have loved to have been the first state to implement it, but now that there's been 30 years, we're really benefiting from all of the other states that have done it. you know, we know exactly, you know, we're in a lot of contact with a lot of other states that have it. So we've learned a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:37)
Right?

Annalouiza (14:38)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:44)
yeah.

Annalouiza (14:44)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, there's something

to be said for not being the very first one to try it.

Mandi Zucker (14:57)
Yes, right now.

We like to think of ourselves as progressive and innovative, but you know, it's fine. We're here now.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What kind of pushback have

Annalouiza (15:07)
That's great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:09)
you gotten? What's been the hardest thing to get past as far as dealing with people not wanting to participate or not thinking it's a good idea?

Mandi Zucker (15:20)
Yeah, so it's interesting because no one has to participate. you know, it's just an option. We're not trying to force anybody to do it or not do it. We just want the option available. As far as like opposition goes, the Catholic Church is our biggest opposition. Not Catholics. Catholics actually support this bill two to one, but the church itself has been, you know, our biggest opposition and they are certainly ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:23)
Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:48)
you

Mandi Zucker (15:49)
lobbying

the governor not to sign, who is Catholic, but we know that she has supported ⁓ choice and autonomy for our own bodies despite, I have no idea what her own personal beliefs are, but ⁓ she seems to be very good at separating her own religious beliefs from her political, ⁓ you know, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:57)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (16:01)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:08)
That's really good. Yeah. And that brings up a point

we've run into before and it's important for our audience to understand too is this, if this, if made is an option where you'll ever, some places you can move to, but if there's something you're interested in, doctors usually in most cases have to sign off on it. And you should ask your doctor if they're willing to do that. Cause some medical institutions are owned by the Catholic church and they're not able to do it. So it's important to check on that.

Annalouiza (16:18)
you

Mandi Zucker (16:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Absolutely. Yep.

Annalouiza (16:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:38)
to. ⁓

Mandi Zucker (16:40)
And it's, say, you I said we benefited from all of the other states. One of the things that's different about the New York law is that there is no residency requirement. So in most other states, there is a residency requirement. There's been a few states that no longer have one, but we would be the first to implement a bill without a residency requirement. So not only will it help New Yorkers, but it will help other people who, you know, unfortunately can't die in their own hand, right? I mean, it's hard, but it will be available.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:48)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:48)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:58)
yeah.

Annalouiza (17:04)
Need to go somewhere.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Annalouiza (17:07)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:09)
right, very important.

Annalouiza (17:10)
Yeah,

that's interesting. There's a lot like I appreciate the work. I remember when Colorado passed it, I went to all the meetings and learned a lot and was really excited by it. And then in the interim years that I heard all these other voices who were really concerned about this choice. And, you know, I I want to say that it's great to have a choice like nobody has to do anything, you know, and your personal beliefs around this is your personal beliefs.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:31)
Right.

Mandi Zucker (17:32)
Yeah. ⁓

Annalouiza (17:39)
And so I just want to say that out loud too, because I think there's such a fear that somebody is going to come and tell me that I got to die. it's like, actually, no, you have to decide for yourself.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:46)
Right? That's not gonna happen. Yeah,

Mandi Zucker (17:46)
Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, no.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:51)
yeah, that's always.

Mandi Zucker (17:51)
We

know that there's actually been no cases of coercion or abuse in the 30 years that this bill has, this law has been around in the United States. So we feel very good about the safeguards that are in place. And if there's any coercion, it's been the opposite way. It's been that people have wanted to use it and their family members have begged them not to, and then they haven't. ⁓ And then they've, you know, sometimes suffered. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (18:03)
Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah.

and don't want them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:12)
Yeah, yeah, that happened. That has happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the

Annalouiza (18:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:18)
other one

that we've heard about that I think is also important is that some of these states that do have ⁓ residence requirements have worked like Oregon and Colorado have worked to create spaces where people could come like a special Airbnbs, right? Where people can come and be accepted and be allowed to do this there and then have a 24 hour residency. So.

Mandi Zucker (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes.

Annalouiza (18:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mandi Zucker (18:40)
It is my dream. mean, once we could get this law enacted and accessible, that is actually like my ultimate dream is to have a home for people to be able to come, not just for out-of-staters, but for people who don't have a home or don't want to die in their own home.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (18:58)
For whatever reason, want a cozy little house where people can, I keep saying like, I want them to be able to play Rummy Cube and some board games and watch a good movie.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:59)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:01)
Yeah, we've talked

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That's great.

Annalouiza (19:06)
Yeah

There's a nonprofit

hospice place in California whom we just met. there's two of them, but one of them, that's the use their, their patients aren't using made, but they are really quickly, you know, they're able to go there to die. And she said the same thing. She was just like, it's just homey. It's just like, you know, there's just people around there singing. There's like, it's got a nice garden. Like I was like, ⁓ yeah.

Mandi Zucker (19:25)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:28)
haha

Mandi Zucker (19:29)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:34)
Yeah, yeah, they help design ritual and yeah, yeah.

Mandi Zucker (19:35)
Yep, mm, yep. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:39)
That's really lovely. I pray your dream come true.

Mandi Zucker (19:40)
I love that. Thank you, thank you. I will, excellent. Pray for a bunch of money, because New York's real estate is quite expensive, so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:42)
Yeah, yeah. And when it does, call us up. We'll have you on back on the cut to talk about it again.

Annalouiza (19:46)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:50)
my god, yeah, yeah, right.

Annalouiza (19:53)
Yeah, that too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:54)
Yeah, that's a good one. All right, there are we.

anything frighten you about end of life or anything that you, you know, would like people to know about as far as that's concerned about what might frighten them?

Mandi Zucker (20:08)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not frightened to die.

And I think part of that is because I've been around death, professionally and personally. So my dad died 22 years ago and I believe in some sort of an afterlife. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I miss him every day and I just can't wait. I mean, I will wait. I can wait to see him, but I look forward to seeing him. So ⁓ that part doesn't scare me. think... ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:29)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (20:40)
But know, I have young adult children. I am scared to not be part of their lives, to see them. You know, I worked so hard to get them to young adulthood and now I think I deserve to see the fruits of my labor. So the thought that I wouldn't be here to watch them actually, you know, form into the adults that I was hoping that they would be, like that's scary for me. But otherwise, I'm not scared of the death part.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:46)
Yeah.

You

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

Mandi Zucker (21:10)
I want to live.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:10)
yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've heard that. I love that perspective and we've heard that and we've also heard similarly, like, you know, am I really done? I done everything I need to be doing, have done, you But and that's kind of the truth. That's, yes, I can say the same thing with your kids. Is my job done with them yet? I want to watch it. I want to see it complete. ⁓

Annalouiza (21:21)
Yeah, well, the project, this is a product, the kids are the project.

Mandi Zucker (21:26)
Yep. Yeah. Yes, right.

Annalouiza (21:30)
Yeah.

So as you've been doing this big lift with the changing of the law in New York, on those days when you find yourself just tired and you know, like what is going on? How do you take care of yourself? What do do to resource your mind, body and spirit?

Mandi Zucker (21:41)
Mm-hmm.

I ⁓ am a big believer in vacations. So I actually take a vacation every day and I started doing, I know, ⁓

Annalouiza (22:05)
ooh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:06)
Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (22:08)
Sounds fancy, but I actually started doing this during COVID when we couldn't go anywhere and several of my like actual vacations were canceled. I decided I needed to like leave, you know, I need to get out and I take a vacation every day. just, I might be walking my dog or maybe I'm in the shower and I smell the shampoo and I just, I close my eyes and I just, I am on vacation if it's, if I, if I feel the wind.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:09)
You

Mandi Zucker (22:37)
or the sun on my face. I imagine where I am and it could be 30 seconds. Sometimes I'll take several 30 second vacations every day. But for me it's so important to just like, you know, be mindful about like I'm not thinking about work. I'm not thinking about whatever other things are stressing me. And I just, I really try to be, you know, very grateful for the sun, the, you know, whatever it is. So. ⁓

Annalouiza (22:46)
Ugh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:48)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

Mandi Zucker (23:07)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:08)
I really appreciate that because

I talked to some clients about active imagination. Your mind doesn't actually know that it's just your imagination. It's actually experiencing the dream, whatever that you're saying. So you really do take vacations every day. Hmm, I like that.

Mandi Zucker (23:20)
Yeah, mm-hmm. I do. Now

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:23)
Yeah. ⁓

Mandi Zucker (23:26)
that's

not, if my husband's listening, that's not to say that I don't want him to take me on an actual vacation, but,

Annalouiza (23:31)
That's right. That's right. This is just resourcing

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:31)
It's important, it's very important.

Annalouiza (23:36)
yourself so that when you get to the actual one, you're not like haggard and exhausted and like, you know, that's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:38)
Right. And more tired when you get back. ⁓

Mandi Zucker (23:41)
Exactly. Right. Right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:44)
Yeah, I've heard that called like a

mini Shabbat or mini Sabbath. You know, you can put those in anywhere. So that's important. Thank you. That's a really, really good advice for all of us. ⁓ Take a break. ⁓ Great. Well, thank you. I really appreciate everything that you've ⁓ shared with us.

Mandi Zucker (23:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:56)
All of us.

Mandi Zucker (23:57)
Good.

Yep. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:05)
⁓ Is there anything you wish we had asked that we didn't get around to?

Annalouiza (24:06)
Yes.

Mandi Zucker (24:06)
Of course.

well, I would just say as far as like, you know, our medical aid and dying bill, like we need all of the support we can get right now. The governor.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:18)
Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (24:20)
the end of the year to sign this bill, but if you have people, especially in New York, that are listening, they can go onto our website, which I think you have, ⁓ and there's a link on there to reach out to the governor. There's a sample script. You can send it to her, but that's really important right now before we get this bill over the finish line.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:39)
Yeah,

yeah. And then what can they do to help afterward? Is there anything that? Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:41)
Okay.

Mandi Zucker (24:44)
They can contact us, yes. ⁓

Annalouiza (24:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mandi Zucker (24:47)
And they don't need to wait until afterwards because like I said, we're already working on implementation. So we have a committee that meets at least once a month. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:52)
Great.

Mandi Zucker (24:57)
all of the things involved and it's quite an endeavor. New York is not a tiny little state. There's a lot of people, a lot of doctors, a lot of coordination. So they should reach out to us if they're interested in supporting this mission, in learning more about it, ⁓ anything that they need.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:02)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:07)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:15)
Yeah,

it's a huge, I'm always blown away how big New York is when I'm visiting there. I have a brother who lives in upstate New York and I remember going out to New York City and thinking, oh, I should go visit my brother. And I look it up. It's like six hour drive. Maybe not. Yeah. that's, but that's. But yeah, that's why I was going to say that it also points to how diverse it is and how people from different parts of the state probably have different.

Mandi Zucker (25:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep. ⁓ It is a very diverse area. Yeah.

Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:42)
specific things they would need to know about or ways they would approach this. So yeah, so was very good, very good. Thank you again so much. You had sent us a poem.

Mandi Zucker (25:48)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:52)
It's called Don't Panic, It's Okay by Karen Boudreaux.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:55)
you

Annalouiza (26:00)
If you are faced with a decision that you're not ready for, it's OK. I'll try to let you know what I would want for various circumstances. But if you come to something we haven't anticipated, it's OK. And if you come to a decision point and what you decide results in my death, it's OK. You don't need to worry that you've caused my death. You haven't. I will die because of my illness.

or my body failing or whatever. You don't need to feel responsible. Forgiveness is not required. But if you feel bad, responsible, guilty, first of all, don't. And second of all, you are loved and forgiven. If you're faced with a snap decision, don't panic. Choose comfort, choose home, choose less intervention.

choose to be together at my side holding my hand singing laughing loving celebrating and carrying on I will keep loving you and watching you and being proud of you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:12)
I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Choose comfort, choose home, choose less intermission. Yeah, choose to be together at my side, holding my hand, singing, laughing, loving, celebrating and carrying on. I will keep loving you and watching you and being proud of you. What a great message. What an incredibly sweet message. Yeah. Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (27:12)
I love that too.

Annalouiza (27:13)
What's up?

She was home.

Mandi Zucker (27:35)
Yeah, it's just, feels like a love letter. I mean, for me, it feels like a love letter to my children, like,

Annalouiza (27:36)
It's an amazing message.

Mandi Zucker (27:40)
you know, and my husband. Like, I just, you know, what a gift for them. And, you know, for all of our family members to know what we want and for them not to have to panic. So many families panic because they don't know what their person would want. And it's really like our final gift we can give them.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:49)
Yeah.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Annalouiza (28:00)
It is a final gift. I, you know, we've just, we talk about advanced care, directive plans all the time. And, know, we're always encouraging people to have conversations with somebody else and everything, but let's just imagine a situation and there's many, and they haven't planned, but if they've heard this poem and they're going to be like, okay, I don't know what's going on. have to figure this out really quick, but choose comfort, choose home, choose less intervention, right? Choose to be together.

Mandi Zucker (28:06)
Great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (28:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:29)
Yeah. Yeah. You could just use this as an advanced care directive.

Annalouiza (28:29)
hold hands, sing, laugh, love, celebrate, you know, like.

Mandi Zucker (28:33)
Mm-hmm.

Do you know?

Annalouiza (28:36)
That's right, this is what I want.

Mandi Zucker (28:38)
It's not my advance care plan, but it, I mean it basically is. And every once in a while I just post this poem on my Facebook page. Because I just want everybody in my life to like remember that. That that's, you know, and I'm healthy. So I mean if I get the flu and there's an antibiotic, give it to me. I want that, but.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:42)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:43)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:46)
Perfect.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:51)
That's right.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:56)
Right? Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (28:59)
If I am in a place or in a space that my recovery is not guaranteed anymore, that's what I want. I don't want to be kept alive.

Annalouiza (29:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:07)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:11)
And I like exactly that point is like, choose comfort. So if the loved one has to ask a question of a medical personnel, like, how uncomfortable might this procedure be now and later? And if they hear like, it's a pretty hard one, then, oh, my mom would definitely not want that. She wants comfort.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:22)
Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (29:26)
Yep.

She wants comfort. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:32)
Yeah. ⁓

Annalouiza (29:34)
Let's do comfort care now. Morphine drip and sweet music. Let's do it. Yeah,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:36)
Yeah.

Mandi Zucker (29:37)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm all in.

Annalouiza (29:43)
so this is really great. What a gem. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another wonderful time. Thank you so much, Mandy.

we really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (29:50)
Yes, and blessings on this journey.

Mandi Zucker (29:50)
Excellent. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Bye bye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:56)
All right, take care.

Annalouiza (29:59)
Bye!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:04)
Okay. They do. Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:05)
blown away, know, humans, man, they do. They really do show up for each other.

Even when I don't feel like people are showing up, like there's, you know, there's folks who keep

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:14)
We are really,

well, one of the blessings of this work is that we're self-selecting ⁓ people that are doing the work and are in our little community of death positive people, which is wonderful. And wow, it's just so inspiring every time. I love that poem. like, it really is like, you could almost call it my advanced care directive poem. Yeah, yeah, it sounds good.

Annalouiza (31:32)
It is. Yeah.

I think I'm gonna print it up and just put it on the fridge. I'll just be

like, in case, you know, there is a moment of panic, which I doubt, if there is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:46)
Yeah, yeah,

Thank you so much again. I love doing this with you and I love the people we meet. We're so blessed. And adios. Take care.

Annalouiza (31:48)
did too. I know we are so blessed. Adios, ciao.