What if Your Last Day Could be the BEST Day EVER?

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Embrace the exhilaration of your final days with an adventure! In this episode, we invite you to experience the joy and fulfillment that await you at the end of your life. It's about making every moment count in this time of transition, choosing to be in beauty and nature rather than in a sterile healthcare industrial environment.

In this conversation, Eric Jepsen shares his journey from engineer to founder of BeautifullyMAID, a care home focused on providing beautiful end-of-life experiences. He discusses the importance of autonomy in death, the challenges faced in the death industry, and the need for more compassionate care options. The conversation emphasizes the significance of nature, curiosity, and self-care in navigating the complexities of death and dying.

Beautifully MAID Website

Transcript

Eric Jepsen (00:00)
And plus go have an adventure on your last day. Go. Go put your feet in the water, go stare at the sky and watch the birds fly over.

Annalouiza (00:02)
Yes! Yes! ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:02)
⁓ Right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (00:10)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:46)
Hey everybody, we want to interrupt this episode to ask for some help.

Annalouiza (00:51)
Yes, indeed. We would like to add value to our podcasts for you, our beloved community, as we move into our third year of being here. Three years.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:00)
How cool is that? 30 years? We're just starting our third year. We're very excited about that. So we really do want to add some value. so we'd love to have as many as possible of you go to our podcast notes and click on the link to take just a few minutes to do a survey for us and tell us what would make it more valuable for you. So we look forward to hearing from you.

Annalouiza (01:20)
Yeah. And, and don't hesitate, whatever is on your heart. There's a little space there that you can add your thoughts about what you'd like to hear more about. Maybe, you know, even if it's books or music, whatever, just let us know. Cause we are here to, to in support of you or listeners. So thank you so much. And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:43)
Welcome everyone. We are very happy to be with you again today. I'm the Reverend Wakil David Matthews. Today we get to meet with Eric Jepson. Eric is the creator of Beautifully MAID, a website that offers folks considering medical aid in dying a beautiful space in which to experience that transition. We will of course put that link in the podcast notes so you can check him out.

He introduces himself as one who is extremely curious about most things. He said, maybe not jazz or butter, which I kind of, you know, not that curious either, especially butter. ⁓ But most everything else he's curious about. He's in his mid fifties. He has three grown kids and he's grateful to have passed some of that curiosity on to his kids.

Annalouiza (02:22)
I'm

Eric Jepsen (02:24)
It's good.

Annalouiza (02:36)
So interesting. And I am the Reverent Mother Ananalouiza Armedariz. Eric tells us that his wife, partner, co-conspirator has graciously stayed with him for 30 plus years. He has trained in engineering with a master's degree and has owned his company for over 20 years, specializing in engineering services. He strives to give his time to entities that further good in the world. For example, a homeless advocate.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:37)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (03:05)
nature preservation, high school coach, and lately helping people who are facing death to have better choices. And that is why he's part of our team. He's our people. Thank you so much for being here, Eric. I appreciate you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:16)
Yeah, these are people.

Yeah, very much. Yeah. We always like to begin by asking folks when they first became aware of death.

Eric Jepsen (03:20)
It's really good to meet both of you.

in regards to this podcast, ⁓ or what you're talking about, ⁓ I don't know. It doesn't have any relationship whatsoever to what I'm doing with Beautifully MAID, but, ⁓ you know, it's just your typical grandparents passing away and, ⁓ having, those viewings, which I would hope to never have that again. ⁓ just, it's so odd to see someone prepared in that way, but anyway, different discussion. ⁓ that was, I've.

Annalouiza (03:55)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:55)
Yeah, yeah,

no, it's one we have regularly.

Annalouiza (03:58)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (03:59)
I've had very little interaction with death around my family or friends. A lot of death, I guess, growing up with ⁓ friends in high school, but again, different stories. I come at this from ⁓ an autonomous standpoint. I highly value ⁓ personal autonomy.

Annalouiza (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (04:21)
And that's how I got into this whole thing is literally about autonomy, not about I had some death experience and wanted it to be better or different. ⁓ It's simply I want a choice. And I saw how that choice was being taken away from others. And I'm an engineer. was like, I'm not involved in this whatsoever. I didn't know anything about hospice. I didn't know anything about a lot of the functions that go on with end of life care. So I started doing whatever

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:35)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (04:51)
normally do. start being curious, reading all as many books as I can get my hands on. And that's kind of how we're having this conversation just a few years later.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (05:03)
Yeah.

it's becoming aware of anything is on a continuum, right? Like some people do come to the podcast and like my dog died, my grandma died, the neighbor died. And so that's kind of like the awareness of death and that more mortal piece. And I'm really interested in like, you saw the need to open up spaces for people to just have a better death, right? So.

So tell me how, when this kind of bubbled up in your mind, what you say you started reading about it. Tell us what's the ⁓ trajectory of this. me the history of how you got there.

Eric Jepsen (05:43)
So

we own a cabin up in the mountains here in Colorado, and I read the paper every week. ⁓ It's deep in the mountains and on the western slope. And ⁓ there was a story in the newspaper about a family that was coming. ⁓ They were gonna rent out this incredible hunting camp that's on the border of wilderness and one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen in my life. And I've seen quite a few places, luckily. ⁓

And there was a grandfather grown up going there and ⁓ wanted to bring his family and pass away in this incredible setting. I like, that's amazing. And the story went on to say that someone in the family...

contacted the local authorities and said, Hey, by the way, that's what we're gonna gonna do. And the authorities are like, no, we're not gonna allow that. And, and even went so far as to say, we don't even have sympathy for your situation. Don't come here. Don't do this. And, you know, I've grown up in the West, I've grown up in California. And there's this whole, you know, we grew up with all the cowboy movies and like, I just want to die in the sunset, right somewhere. Or leave me leave me

Annalouiza (06:33)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:48)
You

Right?

Annalouiza (06:52)
Yep.

Eric Jepsen (06:54)
to myself out in the field or in a forest and that's how I want to pass. That's how I've grown up with. You should be able to do what you want. And so I'm not in this. I'm an engineer. don't.

Annalouiza (07:00)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (07:08)
follow anything with death or the death industry or what people's rights are or anything. So I just started researching. I wish I would have known they could have come and stayed at our place and passed away next to a river, someplace beautiful. I was just deeply offended by... ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:19)
Mm.

Annalouiza (07:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (07:26)
this wild west notion that you have these freedoms to do things, but you really don't. It's just you have freedoms to do what other people tell you you can do. And so I just started reading a lot about that. And I wanted to try to change the narrative. was like, wow, this is not what I thought it was. This notion that you can live, know, have independence the way you want to live and you have independence the way you want to die.

Unfortunately, there's just not a lot of independence when you want to die. As ⁓ some things sit on people, that's what I call it, when something sits on your shoulder or sits on your soul or your heart.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:03)
Mm-hmm

Eric Jepsen (08:05)
That was probably seven years of just nagging at me going, you going to read more? you going to do more? What are you going to do with this? Because it wouldn't go away. Some things you learn about and they just go away in 10 minutes. And this one didn't. So I ended up ⁓ with a good friend of mine. We started a care home for people in.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:12)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:18)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (08:29)
that we're in hospice, if you know if you're gonna die, then you could choose to die in a fantastically beautiful place. So we opened a care home specifically for people in hospice to provide this environment. It was ⁓ just outside of Loew in Colorado and it was absolutely gorgeous. It was everything that I dreamed it could be. A lot of the caretakers and...

Different organizations and hospice and care workers would come visit and tour the property and they would just break down in tears because nothing like that exists. It's very sterile environment. And I'm not down, I'm not being negative on the current industry. It's just a sterile, it's a sterile industry. And... ⁓

Annalouiza (09:00)
Hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:02)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

It's an industry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Eric Jepsen (09:16)
And so I was providing something different that was a great place. But as my timing had it, I opened it right when COVID hit. we did not, we took care of 15 so odd people and. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:25)
Hmm.

Eric Jepsen (09:32)
And then we had to close just our timeline and funding ran out due to the difficulties with so many that happened with so many people with COVID. And I took a couple of years to mourn that and I was getting back into it. It just still won't go away about like, hey, there's still an issue out there of people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (09:54)
I think there's an issue or I think it's an opportunity for people to find out, hey, you don't have to die like this in this environment. So specifically with medical aid and dying, it's a very known timeframe.

Annalouiza (09:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (10:08)
Whereas

if you're in hospice, it could be two months, two days, or a year and a half, depending on how your body reacts. And so with medical aid and dying, there's a given day. And so I started tinkering around with the idea of how to provide people space for that final day. And I've had some several different iterations, but it's, that's my story of how I got here. And ⁓

Annalouiza (10:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:13)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:32)
Mm-hmm.

you

Eric Jepsen (10:37)
through the process

of opening our care home, which was called Masi'a, which means beyond in Spanish. And just my whole reasoning for that name was death is beyond us. mean, there's so much in life that we want to capture and hold that we think we can. ⁓

Annalouiza (10:41)
Say yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (10:56)
our brains around or understand and there's so much that is not and we just don't embrace the unknown. That was the whole point of the name is like just embrace that what is happening is beyond our understanding. So yeah and so it's led to me being on the ⁓ end of life options Colorado board with a bunch of medical professionals. I'm like I'm what why do you want me?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:01)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:08)
Yeah, beautiful.

Hmm.

You

Annalouiza (11:23)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (11:23)
on this board you guys are so much amazing talent and information. I'm like coming out this from left field as an engineer but ⁓ it's a fantastic group to be I'm so honored to be a part of their ⁓ be part of the organization and bring some different perspective I guess.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:42)
That's so beautiful.

Annalouiza (11:44)
Yeah, Eric, I love this. I love this because ⁓ you are so needed. And, Wacky, we had somebody from ⁓ Oregon, right? Who also has been trying to set up a space, like collectivize some Airbnb's who would welcome people who come in from out of state to try to, you know, use the medical aid and die in there. But, you know, I really appreciate your story because it kind of it's so different. Like it's just still bugging me. But I want.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:49)
You

Yeah, yeah.

It won't leave me alone.

Eric Jepsen (12:11)
⁓ yeah.

Annalouiza (12:12)
Yeah, we'll leave you alone, which that's what we all should be doing, right? When something is not, it's persistent, we should actually tend to it. And I want to just, ⁓ and did these statistics a couple of years ago and I wrote my advanced care directive planning book, but I think 80 % of the people want to die at home or somewhere really nice. And only 20 % of people get to actually do that, you know, for lack of planning or there's no spaces or, know, ⁓ for medical aid and Diane, you know, our listeners may know that.

most hospice settings will not allow people to partake in the medical aid and dying process. so that's why, yeah, so that's why Eric having this vision is, it fills my heart. Like, thank you. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (12:47)
Correct. It's a very high number.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and following it and listening

Eric Jepsen (12:57)
Yeah.

It's a lot of fun. helps

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:59)
to the calling.

Eric Jepsen (13:01)
bring people into this space as well because fortunately I've got a lot of friends and or their friends have unbelievable properties and they love to be able to share it. Well this is one way that they can share it because a lot of them are very generous but so I've I go out and meet with people that have ranches and these incredible properties and the way it is now I used to try to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:11)
⁓ How beautiful.

Annalouiza (13:16)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (13:29)
use part of their home or something like that because like hey you could you could rent out a room for me if someone needs this but when the time came it never worked just because of everyone's scheduling and this and that so I moved on to

Annalouiza (13:36)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (13:45)
I'm not trying to create unique things, but I just keep pushing until I find a solution. And so right now I bring the basically the home environment to the property. So if someone's got 10 acres and they've got a house on the corner or something, I want to be off in the, you know, the back eight acres away from the homes. And we come and we set up a whole environment to celebrate someone's life in and amongst nature.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:49)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:03)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:11)
Hmm.

Eric Jepsen (14:12)
So we've got properties that are up in the mountains, next in a cabin or next to a stream. ⁓

Annalouiza (14:14)
So great.

Eric Jepsen (14:20)
got one coming up that they're going to pass away on top of a mountaintop outside of Denver. Prairie lands, farms, you can go be with horses or animals. I'm trying to get the whole gamut of experiences. And it's just, it's really beautiful because you give people the opportunity and they're like, Oh my God, I'd love to participate with this. And I don't have to, they don't even have to be home. I can just go use their property, show up and we

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:23)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (14:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:43)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (14:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (14:49)
just come and go and and it's very quiet because a lot of people think you got to have ambulance services or sirens and like no that everything we're doing is quiet peaceful ⁓ serene it is ⁓ I wish people could see that that article that came out in Denver it was just a snapshot into what we're talking about what we can provide ⁓

Annalouiza (14:51)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:01)
Wow.

Annalouiza (15:03)
my god, it's so beautiful.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (15:16)
It's truly unique and beautiful and I'm super happy to be leading this. There's nothing else. I want to get the word out about, you don't, and even the person, Tim, that died and hit the ranch outside of Franktown that was in that article, ⁓ he had his own home. He actually gifted it to ⁓ his niece after he died. He didn't want to tell her about it after he had passed.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:32)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (15:35)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (15:43)
And, uh, he specifically didn't want to die there just so there wouldn't be any memories of that. And so he could just give her the house. So there's a lot of circumstances that we're not really aware of about. They're fine dying in their house, but there may be some reason they don't want to. And plus go have an adventure on your last day. Go. Go put your feet in the water, go stare at the sky and watch the birds fly over. um, yeah, it's.

Annalouiza (15:51)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:57)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:58)
Right.

Yes! Yes! ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:01)
⁓ Right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:09)
Mmm.

Eric Jepsen (16:13)
Anyway, I'm thrilled to be a part of this. It's hard work walking people through the in steps, which is a new I did this stuff with Masiya and it took weeks, you know, but all this is done in You know, you know leading up to it for a day like, oh, okay

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

new adventure.

Annalouiza (16:28)
A day.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:32)
Beautiful. Thank you. That's so important and so wonderful that you're putting this out there for other people to emulate. So I think anywhere, I think there's, I don't know, maybe 14 states now where it made is legal. And in most of those cases, people can go to those states if their state isn't one of them. And so it seems like each of those states should have something like this going on. It would be wonderful.

Annalouiza (16:33)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:59)
Really glad that we can put this out there and hopefully people can take advantage of the wisdom that you've gained and the experience that you've gained to create similar things everywhere, basically. ⁓ Can you tell us like...

Eric Jepsen (16:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, since

the article came out, I've gotten calls from several different states about wanting to ⁓ duplicate this out there. So, you know, made California made one Beautifully MAID California or whatever. So ⁓ it's going to be a fun adventure. I'm looking forward to we haven't even started advertising yet. So ⁓ once that word gets out, I think I'll be pretty busy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:16)
Okay.

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, right.

Wow. Keeping busy.

So, Ron, walk us through if somebody was interested in connecting with you, how would this look for them? What would it look like kind of step by step? Like how they get in touch, what it ends up, where they end up? ⁓ You you've already talked a lot about some of the places, but like what's the process, I guess,

Eric Jepsen (17:55)
It's different for every person. sometimes we get people that literally have a couple days. And so I try feverishly and we've got a lot of really good properties and partners that we can do things like that really quick. And other ones are months out. ⁓ And those ones, I just tackle it just like I do everything else I work on in my engineering world. I have a project plan. I've got all the the checklists like, we got to do this.

first physician's consult, what hospital or what doctors are you using. I go down through the whole list of the requirements that it takes in the state of Colorado to do that, the residency check. There's a bunch of things. I'm getting hooked up with hospice organizations that are supportive of this.

and most hospice nurses and doctors are but as an organization they tend to be very much like the

Annalouiza (18:57)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (18:58)
the elder care homes and assisted living where they're like, hey, you can come stay here, but you cannot do that here. And so unfortunately, a lot of the organizations, I understand it, but it's, it's just this weird United States that we live in where there's so much legality around everything that you do support this, but as a corporation, they won't. And so we work with hospice groups that there's a lot of people, they make a relationship, the guests that we take care of, I don't call them patients, because I'm

Annalouiza (19:05)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (19:28)
not

in the medical field at all. I call them guests. ⁓ Maybe my background is not medical. As some physicians, they would refer to people as their patients, but for me, they're guests. And as I'm walking through with these different guests, they get to know their hospice teams really well and they're...

Annalouiza (19:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (19:46)
deeply saddened that they're not able to be there on the last day because a lot of ⁓ hospice organizations refuse to let any staff be present, which is so, which is just heart wrenching and frankly wrong, but I get it. They don't want any insinuation that they had anything to do with this. And the law is so clear and simple actually in all these states, you have to self ingest and the people there have nothing to do with it. They're just there to help.

Annalouiza (19:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:54)
Wow, even to be present.

Annalouiza (20:01)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:15)
Yeah,

Eric Jepsen (20:16)
you know, be with somebody and hold the space, create a beautiful environment.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:17)
yeah, just to be present.

Annalouiza (20:18)
Hold that space. ⁓

Eric Jepsen (20:21)
There's nothing any hospice nurse or doctor has to do. anyway, back to your question, Makil, is it's just, I like it. I use my project management skills and I've been using them forever. But I just help people walk through this logistics so that they can having, you know, they're dealing with enough anxiety as it is about

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:38)
Hmm.

Eric Jepsen (20:47)
Imagine you and I going, okay, next Tuesday, next Tuesday, that's so you better have said everything. Did I talk to everyone I needed to talk to? Did, I forgot to call Jill, right? That's a whole nother level of anxiety. And so I try to deal with all the logistical stuff, where, how, what time, what's it gonna look like? How many people are coming? What can I bring to help celebrate? What kind of charity you wanna be?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:50)
Yeah, yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:07)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:07)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:13)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (21:16)
what cot do you want to lay on? ⁓

Annalouiza (21:16)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:18)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:19)
You

are essentially a death midwife. Like this is, I consider myself a death midwife because I always tell people at birth, you know, for the birth, you have a birth midwife and they help set the, like the home birth situation. Like is the home ready? Is a bed ready? Are there sheets or their towels or their foods? Who's going to be there? Who's not going to be there? It's like, kind of help orchestrate, you know, the walking through a portal and you're doing the exact same thing on the other end.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:22)
Yeah

Eric Jepsen (21:23)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:47)
other end, yeah.

Eric Jepsen (21:47)
Yeah, I've

never really named what I do. I'm coordinating people's celebration, end of life celebration. It's the best way I can use it because just with the project management stuff, there's a lot to cover, especially if you're, if this is an, you you just got on hospice or you're thinking about it. And a lot of people come to us that aren't on hospice. And I'm like, you gotta be on hospice. ⁓ Do you all know why I require that?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:53)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:01)
Bruh.

Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, tell us. mean...

Eric Jepsen (22:16)
It's an interesting

point that not many people know. So if you're not on hospice, like the person that was gonna come to the mountain town and pass away, I don't know if they're on hospice or not. I don't think so, but.

If you're not, then you have to call the emergency services when you're done and say we've had a death and they will send the police, the paramedics, and then the coroner will eventually come out and they'll go, okay, this was a maid death. They'll review all the paperwork and go, okay, there's nothing to investigate here. But you're trying to create this serene, peaceful environment, not just for the guests, but also their family. And that's the last thing you want is memories of all

Annalouiza (22:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:57)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (23:00)
to have an explain yourself what's happening here.

Annalouiza (23:04)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:04)
Yeah,

Eric Jepsen (23:05)
And so ⁓ if you're on hospice,

that does not happen. you, once someone passes, then you notify the hospice team. They come out and declare the person. They talk to their physician on the phone and they declare them deceased. And then you can call the mortuary and they can come and pick up the body. And it's very ⁓ quick, quiet, peaceful, efficient. And ⁓ if you're not on hospice, that is

Annalouiza (23:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:31)
Nice,

yeah, thank you.

Eric Jepsen (23:35)
not the case and it's no fun. So if people aren't, I help them get on the hospice.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:38)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:38)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:43)
That's really important for our audience to know and for folks who are thinking about this. I had a friend that I talked to the other day, one of the classes I do is on end of life planning and he and I were talking afterward and he said, you know, he has a hospice, he is actually working similarly trying to find places for people to, in Oregon and Portland to be able to do end of life, to do MAID. And ⁓ he said his biggest advice to anyone

Annalouiza (23:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:12)
is to get onto hospice as soon as possible. ⁓ Don't wait, because people tend to not want to get on hospice because it feels like you're giving up. And ⁓ he said, these are incredibly good services for people who are terminal and know they're terminal. And you should just take advantage of them and not wait. And so that's another good reason. But this is yet another good reason to really get into hospice. And I love that that's part of what you do. And I love

Annalouiza (24:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (24:32)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (24:38)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:40)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:41)
I got

to just really ⁓ lift up the project management part because I was also a project manager in my career and I just love that way of, ⁓ I mean, it's really important, I think, to have that kind of a checklist. I always, I love creating checklists and working with people on, you know, what are the first steps, next steps and that stuff.

Annalouiza (24:47)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (24:57)
Oh, it's essential.

helps, like I said, helps take the anxiety. That stuff, I live it, so there's no anxiety for me at all. I just work through the list. But as long as I know someone has got this and they're working through all the tasks that need to be performed, then they can think about, you know, facing, you know, their last days or last minutes and how they want it and not have to think about what task I gotta complete.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:01)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:14)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:21)
That's beautiful. So important.

Yeah. Great. Thanks so much for doing your work. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:27)
Yes.

So Eric, what are you finding are some of the challenges that you have to kind of work through?

Eric Jepsen (25:36)
dealing with the large organizations and stuff, ⁓ but they've been great. So it's, it's, it's a frustration for me, but it's really not a challenge. There are organizations like hospitals and stuff that they're like, you can't, you can't do this here, but they refer their, ⁓ inpatient or their hospice members, ⁓ to me. So, and there's a lot of organizations are like that. Like we will meet doctors and they're like, yeah, I can't participate in it, but I will.

Annalouiza (25:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (26:06)
recommend you to this group that does. ⁓ so I thought there'd be more, I'm pleased that there isn't more pushback in that. ⁓ A lot of the challenges is really just getting the word out about that.

Annalouiza (26:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (26:22)
Cause I talked to so many people, you imagine what it's, I know you can, what it's like to like, so what else do do Eric? I'm like, well, I do this. And they're like, what? Like, what in the, what are we talking? Like you have, it's just an odd, it blows people's minds. Like, oh wow, I thought I had an interesting day. It's like, but I just want, um.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:26)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (26:26)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:32)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Annalouiza (26:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, blow people's minds. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Annalouiza (26:46)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (26:48)
I guess the challenge is a really big one for me is, it's a fun one, is to get people to embrace how tenuous life is.

Annalouiza (26:56)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:56)
Yeah,

yep.

Eric Jepsen (26:57)
And

that's what I get to do with the property owners that don't, they aren't touching this or whatever, but they get to see, oh, wow, next Tuesday, someone's coming to my property to pass away. they have to say all the goodbyes. It's just, if we can change that dynamic, I really think we can change a lot of the temperature in this, in this world and, have a little bit more calm and perspective about, because you know,

Annalouiza (27:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (27:23)
We don't live in this world. It's going to go on forever. And I really do believe once you embrace how short it can be and the tenuousness of it all, then we're just better people. We hug better. We have better conversations. We embrace conversations and this, we just are better humans, period. I am. I, that's why I love working. It's hard. It's emotionally draining sometimes. Cause you just can't get over the fact that someone my age is just.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:34)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:34)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:38)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:38)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (27:53)
Just that's it, they're done. like, so I guess that's the biggest challenge is helping people get over that hump about embracing death. That's why I got it in tune in the first place. It's just, gotta change the conversation around this. Instead of just something that happens to you in a hospital and you've done everything you can and there's just 50 tubes sticking out of you you're like, okay, I'm done. It's like, there's so many better ways to go about this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:57)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:06)
We do.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:07)
Yeah, yeah.

and they're

That's

Annalouiza (28:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:20)
Yeah. So go ahead.

Annalouiza (28:20)
Well, and I'm going to just let you know that that challenge that you face with the industrial medical is the industry. The death industry, yeah, for sure. So I did a lot of natural death care training. I remember, I don't know if you've ever heard the name of Karen Newson from Boulder. She did a lot of.

Eric Jepsen (28:31)
I call it the death industry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:32)
Yeah, it is,

Annalouiza (28:47)
She was my teacher, she had always talked about how the state of Colorado lets you actually take your loved one's body out of a hospital if you want to do a wake and do some natural death care. And so when my sister died a few years ago, I was like, ready for this. I'm like, yep, here we go. This is what I'm doing. And it was interesting that the hospital pushed back on that very hard. They were like, nope, nope, nope, nope. And later,

Over the years, I've come to realize like the state can have laws in place to give us perceived freedoms and the death industry, the hospitals can decide, well, in this hospital, we don't believe, and this is our rules are going to be different. So I always tell people you can choose a lot of things, but you have to find out if where you show up is actually going to honor what you want.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:43)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:43)
And if you can't, you're to have to find somebody like Eric or myself to say, no, here's our death advocate too. And say like, no, actually we can. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:49)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (29:52)
Yeah,

there's a lot of reasons ⁓ for that. And I'm not trying to advocate for the hospitals here in any stretch, but I've come from big business and stuff. They have enormous amount of rules and regulations and you're basically asking them to break their chain of custody. And there's a lot of news lately in Colorado and other places about these, just how in the world can you have these funeral homes that treat?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:09)
Right. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:18)
Right.

Eric Jepsen (30:18)
Bodies just for like you just stack them in the corner and like well I I'm gonna charge you for a cremation and never cremate the body and so that's how all these regulations come about and so the hospitals have a huge chain of custody thing and you're asking them to break it so the best would be to try to get them before they die or at least educate people like hey you could Get them to a mortuary really quickly or something like that Then you can have access to the body that's outside of that chain of custody. There are ways to do

Annalouiza (30:22)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right. I had.

Eric Jepsen (30:48)
but it is frustrating

Annalouiza (30:49)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (30:50)
because you're dealing with that huge bureaucracy. They'll tell you, yeah, you know, CDPHE is the same way. They have all these rules and regulations. They'll tell you, like, hey, we love what you're doing. We'll help you out. But when you try to break any of those procedures due to what they said, then you're like, yeah, no. So it's tough.

Annalouiza (30:56)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:08)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Annalouiza (31:09)
Yeah. Well, I fortunately found somebody

to help me though. So that was, it was good that I hired someone who became that advocate and helped me throughout the whole process. And I still felt like I had agency around how to move my sister. So that worked out really well. But again, it's like, this is the kind of conversations we all should be having to think about it. Like where are we going to be?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:31)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

yeah.

Eric Jepsen (31:34)
It's

fascinating time right now because even with medical aid and dying, ⁓ I've reached out to talk to a lot of coroners, county coroners about this process and what I'm doing. That way there's no surprise ever like, yeah, we're aware of this and this is how it works. And, you know, just get us contacted with the hospice organization and they form the death certificate and all this stuff. It's wonderful, but you would be surprised that not all coroners, I mean, I've talked to one

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:42)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (32:04)
several that were like, walk me through this whole process, like from beginning to end, like how does it work?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:10)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (32:11)
Even for a coroner, you'd think that wouldn't be like they would be the number one person that would be up on this, but they're not. see, you know, they do investigations if they're required. And, you know, they're the ultimate authority on what says or what the authority and what is whether something needs to be investigated or how a death occurred and so on and so forth. So they're responsible for that. So it's great to be have them informed. But it was also very

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:16)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (32:41)
curious that I'm explaining how medical aid and dying ⁓ process would work at someone's home. it's just fascinating. It's just good to get the just keep how a lot of people know about medical aid and dying still. And the side that's a really sad aside is in some of these counties. They've had violent suicides because they weren't aware of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:44)
You

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Eric Jepsen (33:10)
made medical aid and dying and what options were available to them so that's just horrific to think that you know they're trying to figure out some way to end their life where man if they knew about this they could have they could have

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:11)
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (33:11)
That's right. That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:22)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:25)
options.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:27)
So

much better.

Eric Jepsen (33:28)
it could have gone

peacefully and surrounded by some of their friends instead of, yeah, so there's a lot of goodness that comes out of this, just education that we don't have to, if you're suffering so immensely like that, that there are good options.

Annalouiza (33:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:42)
Yeah,

yeah. You mentioned earlier that ⁓ the kind of the overwhelm that happens sometimes when you're doing this work and ⁓ what do you, do you have practice or things that you do to just kind of bring yourself to take care of yourself during those kinds of moments?

Annalouiza (33:44)
Mm.

Eric Jepsen (33:59)
I'm

highly active.

And that is my number one outlet for dealing with some of my pent up anxiety or whatever it is, emotions around this stuff. I coach high school mountain biking and it's very hard to keep up with them. Although I still can, ⁓ I try to immerse myself in outdoors as much as I can. I'm in the water, fly fishing, I'm out biking, hiking.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:17)
Hahaha.

Eric Jepsen (34:34)
anything outdoors I'm doing so I love it it keeps my perspective it's just it's work I'm doing with people and helping them celebrate that final day and to have that perspective but yeah that those are the things I do to help take care of myself because it can be a lot after a while but uh I mean I gladly take it I mean because I'm just

Annalouiza (34:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:54)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (34:55)
Yeah, we can.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:58)
Yeah,

yeah.

Eric Jepsen (35:00)
⁓

helping someone achieve a dream right? Tim got to go out in Franktown underneath this beautiful black forest and these trees listening to Van Morrison into the mystic. I mean you can't get any better than that. I just like every time you hear the song now it has a whole like it's just

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:04)
Beautiful.

That's right. ⁓

Annalouiza (35:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:22)
⁓

beautiful.

Eric Jepsen (35:23)
So I look at that stuff and like, yeah, and some people, get, the guests I work with, they get really angry and they get really, they're dealing with a lot. And so I'm like, I just brushed that off. Cause I'm like, I'm not facing this. So you can let your emotions run. It's fine with me.

Annalouiza (35:39)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:42)
Yeah,

yeah, really good.

Eric Jepsen (35:44)
⁓

It's not about me. I'm not facing all the stuff they're facing. So I'm not about to have a counseling session like, hey, you shouldn't be so angry. ⁓ They don't have time for that. Let's help celebrate. What do need and how can we move this forward? That's what I concentrate on because I have no idea what, yeah.

Annalouiza (35:52)
No. Yeah. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:52)
Right, right. No, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah,

very well. Very well said.

Annalouiza (36:08)
Yes, and I'll ask this, are you, is this anything about the end of life frighten you?

Eric Jepsen (36:14)
No, I'm so curious. am. But I grew up, ⁓ so let's get a little religious here, but I grew up very conservative Christian. And ⁓ as I learned more and more in science and engineering and physics and chemistry and all the stuff that I love. ⁓ There's all this mystery. When Neil deGrasse Tyson, a bunch of top physicists love talking about it, they're like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:16)
You

Annalouiza (36:16)
Yeah, me too.

Yes.

Eric Jepsen (36:43)
than the current numbers it's 97 point whatever they argue or it's 0.6 or 0.2 but 90 basically 97 percent of the mass and 97 percent of the energy in this world is undetectable by us so we live in an unknown state and so what happens beyond this i don't know and anyone that tells me and that's how i really kind of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:01)
Yep.

Annalouiza (37:01)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:05)
Hahaha

Eric Jepsen (37:10)
That's my long break from religion, is they would just keep telling me what the afterlife is or what heaven is or hell is. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but you don't have any idea what you're talking about. None of us do. So don't counsel me on stuff that you just be honest, you don't know.

Annalouiza (37:19)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:21)
Yeah.

Eric Jepsen (37:30)
And I like to live in the gray is what I call it. And so much of this world politics, religion, whatever, tries to make sense of the gray and black and white. And sometimes you can do it. I get it. Neuroscience, our brains are wired to figure out and, you know, condense things or, you know, put different parameters around things so you can get a black and white answer. I get it. We're all wired that way. But we got to learn to live in the gray.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:40)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:58)
Yeah, absolutely.

Eric Jepsen (37:59)
And ⁓

anyway, I'm just, it's been a long road for me about ⁓ embracing ⁓ this unknown, but going back to the physics of the 97%, I do not know what's happening. One of my favorite lines, and they depicted it in the movie Contact at the very end of that movie. If you haven't watched it, if you wanna wonder, ⁓

Annalouiza (38:04)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:26)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (38:26)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (38:28)
about what is beyond. do such a good job because it's back and forth between ultra religious like this is what's happening and pure unadulterated science like we are never there is no religion and it ends up being a huge question mark in the end where you're like I can't tell you one way or the other and that's how I like to approach all of this stuff with people's like you can have your religious views but we can agree on that this is a vast mystery that we're going into and

Annalouiza (38:42)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:44)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (38:45)
Mm-hmm

⁓

It's a mystery.

Eric Jepsen (38:58)
and who knows what's out there I certainly don't tell people what's beyond this I have no idea but we can embrace the beauty just like we can't see the wind but we can feel it like I'm there's so many examples of the mystery around us ⁓

Annalouiza (38:58)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:11)
Yeah,

embracing the mystery that's.

Eric Jepsen (39:14)
And death is mysterious.

We've learned that with our experiences. There's not that I like to write a book or anything else, but there's, there's weird things that happen around death. I'm sure as you both, and there's a lot of information and podcasts and other things you can go learn about that people aren't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:24)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (39:33)
making stuff up so they can go talk about it. Like we've had some very interesting experiences that are just confounding but they're beautiful at the same time and I just like I hold that open going hmm there's some of that 97 going on around here and and I love to see it. I don't know what it is. I can't describe it to anybody but there's something going on that none of us can touch.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:35)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:36)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (39:47)
Yeah. I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:49)
That's right.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:59)
Exactly,

exactly.

Eric Jepsen (40:00)
We can sense

it. so it's really, I love adventure. I love going. And this is a huge adventure for me to walk this path with people. And Tim, the last one in the article.

Annalouiza (40:08)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:09)
Yeah, yeah.

Eric Jepsen (40:16)
We had such a great time talking because we connected instantaneously because he was a guide up in Alaska. And so I just told him the story and he was like, my God, we're like, we're buddies now. Because when you're fishing, I love this, this visual so much when you're fishing up a stream, you're always looking at that next corner going, my, look at that water right there. It's so amazing. I don't know what's around the corner. my, I gotta go see like what's around the corner.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:22)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (40:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:44)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:45)
Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (40:45)
And so

when I was with Tim, was like, Tim, you're gonna get to go see what's around those corners and all of us are back here. We're not gonna get to see, but I'm so excited for you to figure out what, you know, you're gonna get to go on. it's just, it's really fun and, and, and adventure some for me. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:58)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:05)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:05)
⁓

Yeah, I love that metaphor. I feel that way when I'm walking in the forest too, the next turn on the trail. That's why I can never stop walking when I get in the forest. Wait a minute, there's another turn up there. Right, yeah, yeah. And then you turn around and come back the other way and you see a whole other forest. Yeah. Well, thank you, Eric. This has been really, really, really wonderful. I really appreciate the work you're doing.

Eric Jepsen (41:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:13)
What's it gonna be? What's it gonna be? I know.

Eric Jepsen (41:18)
I know. I know why the trees arranged in this fashion. It's beautiful. Like what? It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:21)
I know. I know.

Yes, I know. Eric.

I'm so

grateful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:35)
Is there

anything you wish we had asked you that we didn't get to?

Eric Jepsen (41:39)
No, you two have been great. It's been wonderful to meet you. And ⁓ I'm, I it's one of my favorite things about being a part of this community. And it's back to your hospice question about why people maybe wouldn't want to join hospice. Forget the medical stuff. Join hospice because the people in it are fantastic. There's some of the best people you'll ever meet. You're like, my God. And so you two in this whole industry, like, ⁓

Annalouiza (41:42)
Mm-hmm

Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:59)
Mm-hmm. I know, right? ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:59)
They are.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:03)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Jepsen (42:09)
I didn't say industry for you two, but this movement about trying to talk more and ⁓ maybe in the future we'll have parlors again in our homes where people can actually pass away in our homes and it be an accepted place for that to happen. ⁓

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:11)
You

Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:22)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Jepsen (42:26)
There's so much I can keep talking about. But anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk with you and have some fellow people walking this journey with me. thank you for listening to me. I appreciate it.

Annalouiza (42:28)
I know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:30)
Yeah, yeah, you too. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:36)
Yeah,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:40)
And I love it. Go ahead.

Annalouiza (42:40)
well Eric, I hope to see you. I work up in Lafayette at the natural funeral home. So hopefully maybe one of these days we'll do a cup of coffee and I get to hear more stories. Yes.

Eric Jepsen (42:52)
Yep, I know them well, yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:54)
Yeah, you

Eric Jepsen (42:55)
I've had a few people pass away and they've taken, the reverent body care there. So I really appreciate the space that's created there.

Annalouiza (43:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:03)
Great, beautiful. Yeah, we always ask for a poem or quote and I love that you just said, the only thing I can imagine somebody finding useful is to be and stay curious. So we'll leave it with that and ⁓ really appreciate that. So good, so important. And so obviously what you're preaching and learning and showing and ⁓ embodying exactly. So thank you so much and we will, ⁓ yeah, thanks for all your work.

Eric Jepsen (43:14)
it.

Annalouiza (43:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you, Eric.

Eric Jepsen (43:30)
All right, thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:35)
Yay. Okay. How cool is that? Yeah. I love that. I mean, to come from that place, you know, I'm just an engineer, you know? Yeah.

Annalouiza (44:37)
What a great story.

I'm just an engineer. There's a

problem to solve. need to figure this out. And the fact that something touched him so deeply and it persisted and he didn't actually give up after the pandemic began and he had to close his Masaya. Like. Yeah, this is what we all should be thinking about. Like what is our passion project and how do I keep going?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and how do I get the word out and get people to really start talking about this? That's obviously what we're up to here. I love that he hears this calling and we talk, you in the mystic path, we talk about the calling and ⁓ my dear friend and teacher, Kadija, used to say, God always wins, you know, so you can keep pushing it back if you want, but it's going to keep coming, you know, and eventually he used to say, here I am, what do you got for me to do? So, ⁓ and I love that that

Annalouiza (45:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

That's right

That's right.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:37)
just a beautiful example of his work and how he couldn't get it off his shoulder. said he couldn't get it off until he actually did the work and beautiful, beautiful work that he's doing. And I really do hope more people think about doing that.

Annalouiza (45:44)
Yes.

Yeah, beautiful

work and the fact that he's wanting to stay curious and I hope more people will learn that curiosity will take you places that you had no idea and you know, stay curious. I think we should always say that. Stay curious.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. Stay

curious, right? Especially this work, yeah.

Annalouiza (46:09)
Yeah.

adios