You Need to Know That it is Possible to Find Real Life Compassionate End of Life Care

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In this conversation, we engage with David Zartman and Joanna Franco from Caring House, a nonprofit hospice care facility. We discuss Caring House's mission, which focuses on providing compassionate end-of-life care to underserved communities. We explore the importance of hospice care at home and discuss valuable caregiver advice for those supporting individuals at the end of life. The conversation highlights the significance of dignified care at the end of life.
We explore the critical need for hospice care at home and offer valuable caregiver advice for those supporting loved ones. The discussion emphasizes dignified end-of-life experiences, ensuring comfort and respect during this sensitive time.

Caring House Website

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Transcript

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:05.189)
Welcome friends. We're so glad to be here again with you. I am the Reverend David Matthews. On today's episode, will have the privilege really to learn more about an organization called Caring House that reached out to us a couple of weeks ago. David Zartman is one of our guests. He is their executive director and director of community engagement. He came to Caring House in July of 2023.

He had spent the last 18 years as a successful entrepreneur, but he's really focusing now on bringing support for CaringHouse and the hospice care realm in general via grants, donations, thought leadership, educational awareness, and outreach to underserved, good point, underserved and underrepresented communities, which is really excellent. We're really pleased about that. We've been talking a lot about that recently. So, want to hear more about this. Thanks so much for being with us.

David (00:54.444)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Thank you very much. Looking forward to this.

Annalouiza (01:00.129)
Yes. And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Mendadis. And we'll also have the pleasure of having Joanna Franco with us. She is CaringHouse's resident care manager and director of program services. joined the CaringHouse team as resident care manager in June, bringing with her more than 15 years of experience as both a caregiver and a resident care

Joanna Franco (01:09.183)
Thank

Annalouiza (01:28.817)
coordinator and manager. This wealth of experience, along with her positive attitude and compassionate nature, has helped Caring House grow its legacy. So they can help more residents, support more families, engage with more volunteers, and continue to build a team of compassionate caregivers. These folks make the Caring House feel like home. During her first six months, worked to create an environment where everyone supports one another toward a common goal. That being

a peaceful and compassionate space for all who enter. thank you, Joanna. We should all be having that as a mission for our lives.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:03.311)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. We got to have a carrying house in every city right now. Yeah. We like to start our podcasts with, as we do, I was telling Joanna earlier, we kind of have a container of questions we usually ask everybody. but mostly we want to hear your story and hear about carrying house. so, feel free to just riff if you want, and we will kind of just let it flow. We do like to kind of get a personal look at how this

David (02:07.049)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (02:10.905)
What?

David (02:11.084)
Yeah, that's true.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:36.44)
how you came into this work by just finding out from each of you when you first became aware of death in your own lives. So maybe we could start with Joanna.

Joanna Franco (02:47.359)
Yes, of course. Thank you. Thank you for having us on today. I'll share my story about how I came about Caring House because it's something I've shared with my family as well. Not a lot of people are comfortable with death and dying. So coming to Caring House was, they were very nervous for me. Even my parents were like, how can, how are you going to be able to handle that? You're so anxious, you know, about medic medical diagnosis and things like that.

And I said, well, I don't know, it's different there. I'm going to try it out. So it was during COVID that I was working as an office manager in a office in Manhattan Beach. And I kept feeling like I wasn't doing enough. Like, how can I do more? How can I help other people? My daughters are growing. I felt stuck where I was. And so I happened to just one day look up for a new job. And I was just looking on.

I don't know what it was either indeed or something. And the ad for Caring House opened up and the way they described it, I was like, my gosh, that's for me. I need to apply there. And I did out of the whim and sure enough, I interviewed a couple of days later and within a week I was offered the position. Not knowing anything about Caring House and how it started, but it just felt...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:06.224)
Mmm.

Joanna Franco (04:14.453)
that this is where I needed to be. And the staff here that had been here since day one were so welcoming and caring and had such a passion about what they were doing that I was like, I need that. Like, this is where I need to be. I need that. Yes. So I came about, after the first month, I did question

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:32.792)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:33.851)
beautiful

Joanna Franco (04:43.127)
myself if I was in the right place. Because we see over at least eight to 10 passings per month. And so I was kind of like taking it home. Like, you know, I would make a present, but then I would go home and, you know, when things quiet down, I could see, you know, that means we have 10 families that are grieving, 10 families that need support. And we're just constantly, you know, sharing with them, sharing a meal with them, a conversation.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:44.984)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:50.672)
Huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:54.448)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (05:12.407)
And so I would take that home at night and I'm okay. Maybe this is too much, but you know, what kept me going was I kept coming back every day and the team here would open the door and welcome me. And I'm so happy to see me every single day that at some point I would ask them, like, don't you guys have bad days? know, like what type of places is this? You guys are always happy and ready to go. And, and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:14.138)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:33.221)
Haha.

Annalouiza (05:34.416)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (05:41.149)
Sandra, who now passed away last year November, she said to me one day like, no, she said, we can't bring anything from outside into this house of peace. said, well, we can't have bad days when we're healthy and we're working. every day is a good day. Every day we wake up is a good day. And that light up something in me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:53.9)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (05:54.161)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:04.005)
Well.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (06:07.721)
And since then, my whole life has changed being at Caring House. I'm just a more happy, positive person and grateful to be living and to be healthy and to be able to come to work and help these families and residents. I'm so grateful to be here and honored to be able to care for these residents.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:20.592)
Mm-hmm.

That is beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, very sweet. Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:33.2)
Thank you. Yeah, David, thank you. Thank you, Joanna. David, did you have an experience in your life where you first like noticed that death was a thing or maybe you want it again, like Joanna speak more to how you ended up there or both. You're welcome to talk about both.

David (06:51.576)
Well, you know, it's really an interesting question because oddly enough, and it'd be really interesting to unpack this offline somewhere else. One of my distinct and rare memories of my very early life, and by that I mean from like one to six, as it were, is I do distinctly remember becoming aware one day of this concept of dying. It was absolutely terrifying and what I did,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:58.256)
Hehehe.

David (07:21.836)
I remember laying in bed, almost crying and then singing happy birthday to you over and over again, because I equated that with a happy, you know, happy attitude and a happy moment. So I'm lying there in bed in the dark in Cupertino, California, you know, singing happy birthday to you, trying to get over this, this thought of, of, of this concept of death. My parents, bless their hearts, were not really attuned to, you know, discussions and that sort of thing. It was a different time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:42.832)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:50.725)
Yeah.

David (07:51.199)
And so, you know, I obviously moved past that somewhat, obviously, but that was my first memory of, whoa, this whole death thing is scary, at least as a child. Later, you know, fast forward, you know, many, many years, and what brought me to Caring House to your question is, as you'd mentioned in the intro, and thank you for the lovely intro, both of you, I had, I'd spent 18 years, I'd started my own company, it was a media company.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:58.929)
Mm-hmm.

David (08:18.542)
and grew it from seed to scale. It was very successful. And I was actually living in Spain of all places with my family. just, it's like, you know, I'm not getting enough personal, I'm no longer getting, I'm not feeling I'm contributing to the world. I need to do something more because I was specifically, it was about vehicles and cars and mobility and transportation. like, this isn't doing anything for me and for the world. And my wife is an LCSW and I'd seen how much joy that gave her helping clients and people like that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:31.546)
Mm-hmm.

David (08:48.44)
to wrap this up as quickly as possible. went back to school, I an MBA with the goal of getting into a more human-centric, a more human-facing role. I wasn't sure what it was yet, but I knew I wanted to do something that moved that needle for the community, for this world. And I was thinking about the environment and schools and education, that sort of thing. And then kind of like Joanna, oddly enough, I'm not sure if it's truly the description of Kismet, but it popped up.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:58.5)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (09:14.615)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:14.704)
You

David (09:16.032)
It's like two miles away. And if you know LA, having a job two miles away is unheard of. I mean, you're always driving and usually you drive an hour to get somewhere, it seems like. Obviously, Ana Luisa, you recognize that. But, my word, it's just so soul crushing. like, okay, it's already two miles away. Go down there and I think Joanna nailed it, like walked in. I mean, it's a house, right? It's literally a house, already got the warm vibe. Sandra was there then, bless her heart too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:21.922)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:26.928)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:29.733)
yeah, no.

David (09:45.519)
made me feel welcome, interviewed and just thought, I can do something here. And kind of like Joanna, I wasn't of course sure. I didn't know what I didn't know to use that sort of cliche line. But I knew I wanted to come in here and I saw the cards on the wall, which we can touch on later, of people who were thanking the staff for the care and the love and the empathy. Anyway, I saw that. I love what I was seeing. I loved how it made me feel like here's where I can do that 1 % a day.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:12.612)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David (10:12.792)
for the community and especially where people who are grieving and dying or transitioning and that sort of thing. And that's it. And that's changed me ever since. And I've been here for almost two, what has it been, two and a half years now. So yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:23.92)
Beautiful, Yeah, we want to hear more about that. I just want to note that in the Sufi practice, I practice, the death is considered a birthday. So you were tapping into that at a young age.

Annalouiza (10:37.381)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (10:41.519)
Yeah.

David (10:42.648)
And you know what, I wanna run on that for two seconds. I can't believe you said that. And you know what, should have, we can save this for the end, because you said you wanted a quotation, but I just have to say it before I forget. There's a great Sufi poem. think it's all of three lines. It goes like this, and it speaks to death. The desert is a true treasure for those who seek refuge from men and the evils of men. In it is contentment. In it is death and all you seek.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:51.268)
Yeah

Joanna Franco (10:51.831)
Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:10.448)
Hmm, hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

David (11:12.714)
Absolutely love that. I remember reading that and memorizing it on the spot.

Annalouiza (11:14.289)
I just feel...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:17.456)
Yeah, they think of it as a marriage. think that's more specifically what they think of it. You're being remarried to the divine. So singing Happy Birthday is very appropriate.

Annalouiza (11:17.787)
Yeah.

David (11:24.288)
Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. interesting. Yeah, right. Okay, good. Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:26.929)
I'm so excited.

Annalouiza (11:36.082)
So both of you, I think I'm going to ask you how has death impacted your day to day, right? Because you're working in a place where eight to 10 deaths occur every month. And for some folks, Joanna, you talked about the first few weeks, months, like, was like, whoa. So how does that impact it?

your day-to-day like you go home and you're living this life and you talk about this wonderful place like tell me more about death.

Joanna Franco (12:10.967)
I think what it's impacted me the most is I've learned so much about death. So to me, death since I was a child has been scary. Like, still now, people think because I work here and I see so much, oh, you must be so in tune and you know, and you're okay with dying. I'm like, no, I still don't wanna die. Like, that's where I am. And so...

The way that it's changed to me is, especially education, death is gonna happen, right? And that no death is the same, think, while we say. We've seen here at Caring House over 700 residents by now. I can guarantee you, even if it's the same diagnosis and the same age gap, no death is the same. The experience is not the same. Every single resident is totally different.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:51.491)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:59.172)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (13:05.34)
We have residents that spend, you know, three months here. We have residents that only spend a couple hours here. It's still very emotional for everyone. And it's, you know, it's someone leaving us. So it's different. I've gotten my family involved, my daughters, my children. They're very much a part of Caring House with me. And I think that helps me feel like we're doing something good. I think they see

mom's doing something that she loves and mom's doing something for others. The giving, you know, the part about giving and they're learning about that as well, I think. So.

Annalouiza (13:38.459)
community.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:45.84)
That's great. That's so important.

Joanna Franco (13:47.127)
I think it's made me a much less anxious and scared person more than anything. Yeah. I'm telling you, it changed my life completely from, know, five years ago to now. I'm a total different person. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:52.618)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:53.261)
wonderful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:58.417)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:02.608)
Well, yeah.

Annalouiza (14:03.277)
Yeah, I really think that's so valuable too, because the anxiety in our world right now is like, it's all the buttons are being pushed, right? But at the end of the day, guess what we have to look forward to? Birthday, you know, like, it's coming for all of us, we all get to share in that. So I think that's really wonderful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:13.157)
Haha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:18.544)
And the fact that you're sharing it with your children is something we talk about a lot on this podcast is how important it is not to hide it and create stigma around it for everyone, no matter how old, because it...

Joanna Franco (14:20.779)
Yes.

Annalouiza (14:24.955)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (14:31.515)
So, I'll share a really quick story that just happened to us a couple of months ago. We had a young mom come into Cary House. She was like 42 years old, three children, nine, 16, and a 20-year-old. And so anytime someone that age comes that we see ourselves in there, it's a little bit harder, even for the staff. You know, we do it with more love, but at the end of the day, we'll share a tear or we'll share...

you know, our feelings about, that could have been me and, you know, her kids. And so she passed away a couple months ago, but just recently my daughter, who's nine years old, I picked her up from school and she was really happy to tell me that her friend knows me. And I said, your friend knows, she knows you from work. She knows Caring House, you know, and she knows everyone there. She knows Tracy, she knows Monica.

She's been in the garden and I thought, well, maybe someone that's worked here. And I said, okay, what's her name? she wrote it in a piece of paper for you here. And her mom was one of our residents here. So I thought, my goodness, does Daniela know her mom had passed away? And I said, Daniela, you know, that means her mom passed away. Did you know that? And she said, yes. She said her mom had cancer.

and you guys took care of her. And it broke my heart for a moment and I said, and I'm sorry, are you okay? And she said, yes. She's like, yes, mom. She's like, Andrea's happy. And we want to set up a play date at Caring House. know, they made it here. Yes. And then I thought, wow, like the impact we made into this little girl that lost her mom.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:57.338)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:10.266)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:13.826)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (16:17.041)
That's awesome. I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:17.646)
haha

Joanna Franco (16:25.417)
And she's out there living and she's happy and she's happy. She has a happy memory about us. You know, it's not so much about her mom's death and the cancer that took her. She has a good memory where she wants to come back here. And that there teaches me too about teaching my kids, you know, we're not always going to be here, but we have to keep going and life is beautiful and we have to learn from our experiences here.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:41.016)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:52.154)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (16:53.143)
That's where it's changed me too, I think, because I was the mom that would hide everything that was scary or we didn't know about. So, you know, everything's beautiful and it's not really like that out there in the world, right? So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity here and my daughters seem to accept it very well as well. Yeah, so yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:03.024)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:13.364)
Sweet. Perfect.

Annalouiza (17:20.379)
So David, how does death impact you?

David (17:24.824)
Powerful, a lot of ways. I'll start personal, so both of my parents are still with us, but they are ailing in the extreme. One has advanced Alzheimer's, my mother, and my father has a list of serious issues that I'm frankly amazed he's still alive, and is actually in the hospital as I speak with severe sepsis and heart failure and.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:49.936)
Mm.

David (17:54.627)
and many other things. So there's the personal side. And in an odd way of timing, you know, being at Caring House, yes, as a director, but someone who walks the halls regularly and checks in on patients and has conversations with them from time to time has done a lot for me just seeing and thinking about my own personal side. But then at work, I don't have that luxury per se, but it does give me a little bit more feeling, understanding for people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:58.042)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:24.25)
Mm-hmm.

David (18:24.748)
is that you can walk just the tiniest bit in the shoes of people who are pre-grieving, for example, who are thinking about it. Joanna made a great statement about her kids. My youngest daughter is 11. She sang for one of our people who was dying, came in and sang to her and did that several times and asked later, hey, is she gone? And yes, and such. And so what I'm seeing is now is

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:30.704)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:45.978)
Mm-hmm.

David (18:52.718)
it's getting closer to my own parents passing away. She still asks me about that, but she's not quite the same way in terms of fear or just breaking down about the thought that, know, grandma and grandpa are going to be passing away soon and that kind of thing. So it's been positive in that sense. Also, it's affected me because I do do conversate with people as is appropriate. And, you know, one of them was a 104 year old man who

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:59.962)
Mm-hmm.

David (19:22.478)
was a lovely gentleman and would play the harmonica. And for the first few days he could ambulate around a bit and he'd eat ice cream. And so was just great talking to him and it was lovely and his family was lovely. And then the next morning he was gone. And that's one of those moments where it's just a bit of a check, isn't it? It's like, I left last night at 5.30 and said goodbye and it's great chatting with you. And you come in the morning and you have to remember that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:36.484)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

David (19:51.663)
This life is transient to the point where it's just here and then it's not. And that's what I often stop and think about is, are we living our best lives? Are we helping people more than hurting people? Are we, in terms of work, am I connecting with people? Am I helping with their grieving process and that sort of thing? And so for me, it's been a very 360 degree thing that really have.

really affects me every day. And I try to stay attuned to that. I try to stay very open and present to that. Does that make sense?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:22.032)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Well, David, maybe you could speak a little bit to just kind of let our audience know more about Caring House and what it does, how it works. How do people get in touch with you? And is it like a hospice space? Or just kind of explain more to folks how that works and the kind of the...

David (20:40.408)
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the question. So in brief, it is literally a residential house on a street in Torrance, California. From the outside, you would have no indication that it was a hospice residence that takes care of hospice care patients. In California, it's called an RCFE, residential care facility for the elderly, which without going too deep into the weeds, and we can throw it to Joanne in a moment, but very briefly and concisely, that just means

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:58.106)
Mm-hmm.

David (21:09.858)
that is licensed a certain way. And one of the main aspects of our licensing, if not the only one, is that we're non-medical facility. So we don't do medical procedures here and that sort of thing. It's truly a place where you're coming for the end of life. so yes, medications, obviously, things like that, oxygen, things like that, but there's no feeding tubes, right? And things like that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:33.146)
Mm-hmm.

David (21:35.375)
So that's, and of course the house has been custom built for that purpose. So it has the things required by licensing, which are, know, fire suppression and many other things. We have six rooms. They're all private. And then we're bespoke. And what I mean by that is, and we're very proud of this, and it's a big part of who we are, is that everything is what the resident and their families want and need at whatever time they want and need. I often say this, but I'll just repeat it here. We are not a sort of place where

All right, everyone, breakfast is at eight, lunch is at one, and dinner is at six. That's it. And it's gonna be cereal, sandwich, and chicken. We ask them as much as is possible, what would you like, when would you like it? And if they want buttered toast at two in the morning, or if they want hazelnut mint ice cream, we're going to get that for them. We will cook for them. Our caregivers cook for them, that sort of thing. Then more on the business side, and then I'll throw it over to Joanna, is we're of course a nonprofit.

Annalouiza (22:12.913)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:33.53)
Mm-hmm.

David (22:33.848)
We're the only nonprofit hospice care residents in LA County. opened in 2016. And as Joanna mentioned, have seen over 700 people since then. We're very unique set up that way. So no one's turned away for inability to pay, which goes back that underserved and underrepresented thing, which I'm sure we'll get to. So it's on a sliding scale. And that's very important to us. We want to make sure that people can experience our motto at Caring Houses, peace at the end of life. And that's for both the caregivers

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:37.518)
Wow.

David (23:03.478)
sorry, the residents and their caregivers, meaning their family. I might throw it over to Joanna's director of operations. I've probably left out a few things. If you don't mind, can I throw it to Joanna? Cause she's really the, you know, yeah, over there.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:07.023)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:12.695)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Joanna Franco (23:14.743)
Yes, it's just to, so we have six rooms, six residents at a time, six family members, families in the house. And like David said, it's all about them and surrounding them with, you know, love and making sure that they're comfortable, that they're not stressed about anything that's logistic. We, we let them know that we're going to take over now and you guys will just sit here and enjoy your loved ones and talk to them and, and hug on them.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:40.368)
Hmm.

Joanna Franco (23:44.343)
for as long as they want. We're very flexible with visiting hours. They always say, I used to play good cop, bad cop with Sandra because there is rules to the house. And when would come ask me, I'm always more like, yeah, you could bring your dog at 2 a.m. and we'll sneak him in so that he can spend some time with you. Where Sandra would say, let's just wait till after seven, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:54.2)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:09.082)
Haha.

Joanna Franco (24:10.963)
We love what we do and we want to make sure that they don't have any other stress other than they're already grieving and have a lot of very overwhelming questions and decisions they have to make. We want to make sure that we take over everything else for them. And all the staff here and the volunteers are the same way. They're very passionate about what we do and want to make sure that we do a good job while they're here and that they leave here feeling

Like they don't have to worry about their loved one being cared for or being, you know, attended to while they're not here. They can go home and actually take a nap or eat a meal and not have to worry that they have to be here at bedside making sure that someone's taking care of them.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:55.246)
Mmm, sweet, beautiful.

Annalouiza (24:56.891)
So I really love it. sounds like Cohn-Cier's death house, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:00.812)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

David (25:02.21)
In a way it is.

Annalouiza (25:03.537)
It's like, no, chocolate mint ice cream, please. You know, that's my call. I love that. But I'm really curious. It's a nonprofit. So how do you do your funding then? Because do you accept Medicaid or like how do you fund it?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:05.932)
Hahaha.

David (25:06.03)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (25:06.167)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:18.276)
Yeah, especially.

Joanna Franco (25:18.721)
Great question. I can't. Because we are non-medical, there is no funding through Medicaid or Medi-Cal or any type of medical insurance. The only type of insurance they could potentially use is long-term care, which that stopped happening a long time ago, but there is some residents who have it once in a while. But other than that, it's not covered through any type of medical insurance.

David (25:18.786)
You want to start on, Joanne, you want to start on that, like on the insurance side and I can talk about the other side? Sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:22.788)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:48.081)
Okay.

Joanna Franco (25:48.437)
Well, it's all private pay.

David (25:50.575)
Yeah, it's private pay on a sliding scale based on your ability to pay. As mentioned, no one's turned away for lack of ability to pay. There is some due diligence on that. We're not just open to just oral statements. We do ask to see a little due diligence. But essentially, no one's turned away. And then yes, to your point, Annalisa, it does require, and this is kind of where I step in for the most part, although we act as a team.

we're actively applying for the usual things, the foundation grants, we do events like we're doing this fantastic coffee tasting fundraiser that we're gonna do here next Saturday. We just had what we call the Barbecue by the Bay, where we have a big barbecue with the silent auction and this sort of thing. We have winter appeals and et cetera. So we are actively fundraising because yes, it is expensive for everything as you both well know.

Annalouiza (26:23.771)
Yeah. Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:28.528)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:34.234)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (26:42.533)
Okay.

Annalouiza (26:45.882)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:47.694)
Yeah.

David (26:49.102)
And especially in California, dare say, unfortunately, just for all the licensing and the car, I mean, just our electricity bill, right?

Annalouiza (26:49.265)
I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:51.51)
my god.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:57.456)
Right

Annalouiza (26:59.624)
It's like the list is like going through my head right now. I'm like, wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:01.968)
Yeah, well...

David (27:03.404)
Yeah, and then and that that list has like the sub list to it of like our licensing requires that the temperature of the house never deviate between two different levels. It has to be in here. So either typically not always but being California typically either the AC is on or the heat is on. I mean not always but like somehow money is being spent to make sure which is fine. That's what we do. But yes, so there's a lot of costs and so we do need and ask for

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:18.188)
Mm-hmm. All right.

David (27:33.29)
money regularly. It's obviously not the funnest and loveliest part of the job. And what we try to tell people to wrap this side up real quickly is we're literally a community partner and community service to everyone in this community. We're here for you to do things. We're nonprofit. No one's enriching themselves. No one wants to enrich themselves. But we're helping with this conversation of death and that process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:44.592)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:48.727)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:49.009)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:54.833)
Yeah, beautiful. How many people are on staff at any given time?

Joanna Franco (27:59.859)
A total of 12, I would say, including David, Matthew, and I. So caregivers, right now we're about nine caregivers. We are looking to hire a couple more just to have extras for the holidays. People want to take time off. But yes, it's a small team. But I wanted to add to that as well with the finances is that not everyone's prepared for death or to get a terminal diagnosis.

You know, we don't plan for it. So it catches a lot of families off guard when they go into a routine checkup and now they're telling you you're going to pass away and you need 24 hour care at home. And families struggle to come up with that money. So most of the times it's their husband, their wife taking care of the patient or their neighbors coming over to help or you know, their daughter. And so it's sometimes the

the elderly mother caring for her daughter that has breast cancer and now they're getting on hospice. And so they can't afford care and it's really life changing for them to come here and for us to say, you know what, we're gonna take over. And so many times I just see their expression and just that relief of, you sure you're not asking me for $20,000 for this?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:00.75)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (29:23.839)
It's like, we're going to take care of you and we'll figure it out. you know, after they've heard no, no, no, so many. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:25.68)
Hmm. Well.

Wow, yeah.

Annalouiza (29:29.681)
Yeah. And it's not a really good place to actually let our listeners know about again about hospice, right? So when folks get into hospice, you generally get, you know, assigned a nurse, a social worker, a chaplain. Um, I'll see you get, um, right. But

David (29:30.35)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:48.186)
care, home care, yeah, yeah.

Joanna Franco (29:52.015)
Like a couple times a week.

Annalouiza (29:54.322)
But the general piece is like you're doing a heavy lift at home with your loved one, right? And so what it sounds like for you, it's like, it really truly sounds like a family setting for folks who need care and hospice will probably not, it will be under serving that patient, right? Because it's hard. It is very hard when your folk, when your loved one is really sick, you have kids or job and

you know, what do you do about these extraneous aspects of care that you really actually don't know how to do or don't have the time to provide? So this does sound like the family shows up.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:32.2)
Yeah, yeah. It also sounds to me like something that there's probably nowhere near enough resource.

Joanna Franco (30:33.621)
Yes.

Annalouiza (30:38.416)
Yes.

Joanna Franco (30:39.703)
I mean, it breaks my heart sometimes when we have to turn someone away and I know I can hear it in their voice. They're about to hit a wall because they're just exhausted and don't know what to do anymore. And they're scared because their breathing has changed and they don't have the experience of what to do now. And hospitals can't send a nurse till maybe eight hours later.

David (30:53.006)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:06.778)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (31:08.343)
It's the need is out there, absolutely. Every day someone is getting a terrible crisis, every day someone's dying. And so we do the best we can, one resident at a time here. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:10.456)
Yeah, really so needed.

Annalouiza (31:11.761)
is.

Annalouiza (31:15.317)
huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:23.0)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much for doing that.

Annalouiza (31:25.125)
Yeah, I love it. So what are some of the big challenges that you face, you encounter?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:31.652)
We already talked about money.

Joanna Franco (31:32.209)
David (31:33.666)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:33.765)
Yeah, I know, he's a big one.

Joanna Franco (31:36.287)
I'm glad David worries about the money the most. don't, I pretend like I don't see the bills and we keep ordering steaks for our residents once in a while. But, you know, I think challenge, the challenges are, would say maybe the grief of the families, you know, the acceptance, denial, things like that. I think it's where we struggle a little bit when families are still very much in denial.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:38.8)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:42.828)
haha

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:04.495)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (32:06.207)
You know, hospice is designed the way they presented is you have a prognosis of six months or less and that's how you qualify for hospice. Caring house, our mission is to provide the care at the very end. So it's for someone that's already going to start to decline or transition. And then maybe their loved one doesn't want them to pass away at home because they live there. They have kids in the house and they don't want to see their parent die at home. So

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:13.712)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (32:34.123)
They come at that very end stage when someone already bed found. And so many times I have families that come here from the hospital and the hospital has said, your loved one has six months or less, but they'll come here and they'll pass away within a couple of weeks. I will why, you know, they're they we had six months, but educating, I think that's a challenge because the education is not coming really from.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:35.61)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:52.207)
Hmm.

Joanna Franco (33:02.859)
the doctors at the hospital, or whoever's meeting with them, the social workers. So here, our backgrounds are not in, we're not medical or social workers, but we do see a lot and we can tell you by just even maybe looking at the resident and kind of see what their last couple of days has been. And we can say this resident is gonna pass away within a few days or a week. And so sometimes,

Annalouiza (33:03.857)
Thanks.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:19.76)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:29.456)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (33:31.625)
It's hard for the family to hear that coming from me or from one of our caretakers that they're not doctors or medical, but it's like it's the reality. And sometimes we have to say it or else you're going to miss out on that window that they have.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:45.57)
Yeah, so good.

Annalouiza (33:46.83)
I feel like our culture just doesn't allow for the possibility of it happening. just like too, like it blows people's minds. you know, and having my sister died and I just remember multiple days of being in the hospital over the course of my lifetime, just being with her, doctors not actually saying like, this is serious. Like in the very end, you know, nobody want to actually say she's on comfort care. This is it.

Joanna Franco (33:53.655)
Absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:55.578)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:14.415)
And I was like, no, no, I need you to say it aloud because it's okay. This is a safe place. We are dying. It's okay. But yeah, the medical industry does not like it. They lost the battle, right? Like, so they never want to do that. So educating people that language is being kind of usurped from them because there's power in keeping people in the dark. It's really like, it's hard. It's heavy for you showing up to be like, no, actually, this is probably a lot sooner than you imagine.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:17.264)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:25.347)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (34:25.793)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:41.87)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (34:42.187)
Yeah, absolutely. It's not the easiest. I sometimes feel like, my gosh, am I overstepping? But I feel like 90 % of the time they're grateful because then they can call the ones that said, we'll be there next week or we'll take a flight in a couple of weeks to see them. Hey, you need to come now and visit with your loved one.

David (34:42.99)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:43.099)
But thank you for doing that.

Annalouiza (34:51.504)
No.

Annalouiza (35:00.26)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:04.484)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:04.889)
You know, I just had a situation last week with I had two weeks ago when I was visiting somebody and I mentioned to the spouse, like, have you heard about hospice yet from anybody? And there was like, no, you know, we're not there. We have, you know, three weeks away. We're going to have another operation. It's like, that's, that's not, we're not ready for that conversation. All right. You know, like, I was like, I see the writing on the wall. But then when I got the call, like 24 hours later saying,

We need to get out of here because I said to go to hospice. I'm like, uh-huh, uh-huh. But you know what I really, what I really appreciated in that moment is that I wasn't afraid of asking that question to hopefully have seated that little thought in that person's head saying, I mean, it's coming, but maybe not now, but it did come and and I had said like hospice, a really great opportunity to, you know, get your breath, not be here in this, in the grind of.

Joanna Franco (35:36.673)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:37.696)
Yeah.

David (35:38.894)
Okay.

David (35:59.885)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:02.033)
medical lean, whatever. But I think that's what we have to be brave when it comes and not necessarily being like, this is happening to you. But it's like, maybe sooner.

Joanna Franco (36:03.287)
Thank you.

Joanna Franco (36:10.359)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:11.939)
Yeah.

Yeah.

David (36:16.722)
I mean, what you just said about your sister is something that's happened to me and it's something I'm hoping I can change at 1 % a day. My dad's in the hospital and we're treating them and that sort of thing. Then I read the notes. The notes say, frail 87 year old gentleman who is critically ill.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:32.088)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (36:37.817)
Yeah, they don't tell you. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:38.064)
Yeah.

David (36:39.63)
Right. And so you read the notes and that's what they're thinking, you know, and so it's, it's, that's, that's a symptom, you know, no pun intended, obviously, but a symptom of this, what we're all talking about here, which is, you know, the death industry, the hospital medical industry, you know, I need to go down that rabbit hole now, but it's a real thing, which kind of bring what I would add to all this is, and I think Joanne, you touched on it, helping with education, letting people know often in

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:42.169)
Mm-hmm.

David (37:09.182)
in people of color communities and underserved. Historically, alternatives to hospital care and this idea that we'll be trying to cure until the very last minute is often foisted on people. Stay here, don't move. This is the best thing. That can go against people's wishes, their culture, their thinking, their family. And that's the thing I'm hoping I can change. You don't have to come to Caring House, but just be aware that there can be.

often, not always, but there can be other options in what our doctors and such are telling you. And I have no issue, by the way, when I say that with Western medicine such as it is. I'm talking about that step up as we approach death and dying. Like you're saying, there needs to be more honesty, more transparency. And I feel that physicians and nurses and stuff should do a bit more of giving those options. Like now's the time we're gonna talk about this. It's ultimately up to you, of course, but here's some ideas of things you could look into.

Annalouiza (37:50.893)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:01.189)
Yeah.

David (38:06.752)
And I think that'd be great for this community and of, of not, the Southern California community, just our society as a whole compared to some others. And I'd like to see that something I'm trying to work for. We do that through educational materials. We do it through in-person things, experiential. We try to connect with community leaders that trusted community leaders, because they don't, I understand they don't necessarily have to trust me or Caringhouse or Joanna or anybody else, but

Annalouiza (38:22.705)
Right.

David (38:34.39)
If we can talk with their trusted leaders, whether that's in a religious institution, whether it's in a community institution, whether it's in a hospital, great. I keep saying the words 1 % a day. What I try to do is change, move the needle 1 % a day, because every 100 days you've changed something 100%. And it's only 1 % a day. If that's just one phone call to someone, that's my 1%. And we can do this bit by bit, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:52.069)
Yeah, great.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, perfect. That's such an important noticing. In fact, there's so many, it's so hard right now. There's so much going on that we wish we could fix. And we can only do, yeah, 1 % a day or what we can. And basically to set that intention every day, how can I be of service to my community, to my people, is really all we can do. And we can acknowledge.

David (39:08.492)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

David (39:15.209)
Mmm. Yes.

David (39:22.509)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:23.062)
and acknowledge the fear or the despair we feel for what else is going on, but we can't fix those things. And we have to be able to be in surrender and acceptance that, what I can do is this. And so do that, right? So this really leads to kind of thinking about how you resource yourself. So when this becomes overwhelming or when you just had a bad day or it's just been whatever, you know.

David (39:44.856)
Mmm.

Joanna Franco (39:47.223)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:50.863)
Is there a way that you resource yourself, you take care of yourself? It sounds like you have a wonderful team, which obviously helps, but are there other things that, or maybe that's the biggest part of how you resource yourself. But I'd like to hear from, maybe we'll start with David and just tell us more about that.

David (40:08.59)
Thank you, what a great question. Wow, because it is so important. I know that for me personally, to use your term of resource in which I like, first of all, I will talk with staff. I'll talk, Joanne and I, I mean, we meet daily on business things, but we will talk about like, wow, know, so-and-so was a difficult resident and was hard on the caregivers and that sort of thing. How are you doing? You know, a big part of what I do for resource and that helps me is it does help me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:25.732)
Mm.

David (40:38.292)
at work to know that I'm trying to make the things that are hard on the staff less hard. Things that are hard on residents and their families less hard. That does a lot for me. If I know that I'm working actively to make the situation calmer, more peaceful, easier, more educational and everything else, then that does a lot for me. And just talking, know, Joanne is...

I've been here a long time. And before we've mentioned her several times, she was such a gem. It was a devastating loss. had a woman named Sandra. She was here from day one with Caringhouse and had an unexpected cancer diagnosis and died quickly. was a horrible thing. while she was here, think, Joanna, you would agree, would resource with her. She always was this calm presence of just, know, and very loving and empathetic too, but just like

Helping be there, helping understand. So a lot of personal stuff in the house happens for me personally. then I, you know, I do some stuff at home and I do things like EMDR and other things as necessary to kind of do a little, you know, neural network rewiring if it's hard, you know, things like that. Again, not to go off on tangents, but it's very helpful to me. You know, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:37.072)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:48.547)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:52.645)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:52.978)
That's the little report. Like, what are you doing to make sure that you can show up tomorrow and help your staff too? Because it's no light matter and, you know, caregiving is very difficult. And so I always tell people, like, what do you need to do to make sure that you get the rest emotionally, spiritually, physically, to be able to come back tomorrow and do it again?

David (42:01.167)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:14.288)
Yeah.

David (42:15.244)
I can wrap up and I'll throw it to Joanna. All I can say to that is I try to, this is not the end all, but I try to stay very present at all times. By doing that, for me personally, it helps not do so much of the compartmentalizing that makes it hard to break out and starts to fester a little bit and causes that tight feeling in your stomach or the tight feeling in your head. So try to stay present and just go, accept what is happening here.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:22.48)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:41.306)
Yeah, yeah.

David (42:42.176)
I know that I can't do everything for everyone, but I can try. I'm going to listen more than I talk. And just stay present as possible, because that's the only way I can be most effective to both the caregivers and to these families is being present and listening. What about you, Joanna?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:54.062)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Yeah, and Joanna, you mentioned earlier that early on anyway, you were taking some of this stuff home. So that's another part of this. know, how do you, if it does come home with you by accident or just because it was so heavy. Yeah.

David (43:02.872)
Mm-hmm.

David (43:09.198)
Mm.

Joanna Franco (43:09.367)
I think for me that first month was just realizing people are dying every day and death is real because I think outside of carrying house you don't see death unless you know uncle pass away or my grandparent passes away it's not an everyday thing and here it's everyday someone's losing someone so I think that really impacted me and I took that home and I was scared like my gosh my parents are gonna die my said someone in my family

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:16.88)
Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (43:40.093)
I will, I know we've brought out Sandra a few times now, but she's very heavy on me this morning. And I thought, my gosh, I hope I can do this podcast. Because she's just very present. And I think I learned from her that, you know, life goes on and she was a big presence here at the Caring House and for the team as well. I think her passing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:48.848)
Hehehe.

Joanna Franco (44:07.131)
her telling me that you know you need to go back to Caring House because we talked up during those three months that she had from her diagnosis to passing away that don't think I can do this without you I'm not going back to Caring House and she said no the mission must continue and we're here for a purpose and I've served my purpose and now you're going you need to go back and you need to help. And I think that's what's coming here doesn't feel like a job or like work it's very light.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:17.968)
Mmm.

David (44:34.22)
I know.

Joanna Franco (44:35.639)
Like David said, we have a lot of support. I have a lot of support from him. So if I need to take a day off and just stay in bed all day and eat junk food, he's a part that. He will say, know, Joanna, stay home. You know, don't worry about coming in. And we're very supportive of our team as well. We've been able to get enough funding or, you know, do a lot of stuff to get funds in. we're

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:42.905)
You

You

David (44:55.746)
Yes.

Joanna Franco (45:03.735)
you know, up until maybe four years ago, we were able to provide the staff vacation time. That was really important to me when I came on board and I'm like, we don't have vacation time. Well, no, you know, it's like we're a nonprofit, they work part time, so they don't get enough hours. And I was like, they need to take a break from. And so David and the board worked really hard to, you know, put funds for that. And so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:07.876)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:20.485)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:26.723)
Hmm.

Joanna Franco (45:28.309)
I'm very flexible with the team. They know if they need a day off, they can just come in, I'll work their shift so that they can take the day off. And so I think we make it very light for them as well so that they know that their health is important as well. I tell them, if you're having a bad day and you need a time off, just call me and say, hey, I need a day off. And that's OK.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:51.62)
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.

Joanna Franco (45:53.911)
We always get that question. I could say that it doesn't feel heavy. I don't feel it's an honor and a privilege for me to be here and be able to help a little bit.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:04.602)
Yeah.

David (46:04.718)
Those caregivers really are the rock we all stand on. You know, it is critical that they get 110 % of our support as the two directors there. And like Joanna said, I don't get in Joanna's lane for that. But whatever she needs from me to make sure that they are taken care of, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to do. I mean it. And she knows that's true because they are the face of us. talk.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:07.45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joanna Franco (46:07.851)
Yeah.

David (46:32.76)
to the families daily, they talk to the residents and yes, the hands-on care. I mean, you're literally, when you're just rubbing someone's hand when the family can't be there, right? So the caregivers, they are the ones who also, you know, we are very attuned to making sure that they are not burning out, that they are getting some mental respite, like Joanna said, time off. Joanna meets with them on the regular to make sure that, how's morale? Is everything going?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:36.538)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:42.072)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:52.226)
Mm-hmm.

David (47:02.542)
okay, you know, what can we do to help? And that's very important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:05.102)
Yeah, yeah. I just want to note that Sandra is still a very real part of your lives there. can just hear that, that she is very, very present. And that's what a blessing.

Annalouiza (47:13.871)
Mm-hmm. Yes. He's still around.

Joanna Franco (47:18.839)
Yes.

Annalouiza (47:22.545)
So one last item before we leave, it's what do you wish we'd asked you?

Joanna Franco (47:30.839)
Thank

David (47:31.086)
Eww.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:31.952)
This is like, you get one more chance.

Annalouiza (47:34.449)
Yeah

David (47:34.754)
Yeah. Joanna, I mean, I can think of a couple of things.

Joanna Franco (47:40.361)
think we touched all, those are all good questions because we touched a lot of things that are important that I think people need to know about hospice and need to know about death. And so I think we've asked all the great questions, but thank you.

David (47:43.83)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:56.4)
Yeah

Annalouiza (47:57.841)
you

David (47:58.029)
All I would add to that is something that I often think about is where are we going with this? What's the future? And my answer is overall, I think it's positive. I go to the Omega Home Network conference each year. And although it's very difficult to start a house like ours, no matter what state you're in, it is happening. It's a very slow growing seed, but it's growing.

I'm positive, I feel positively about how this educational outgrowth, throwing a stone in a pond and watching it ripple out, they're really small ripples, but it is incrementally growing. Education, knowledge, the actual brick and mortar homes, that sort of thing. And so I'm very pleased on a personal note, just to see that not just from us, but New York, Nebraska, you name it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:53.328)
Mm.

David (48:53.806)
that this world of end of life, of education, thanks to podcasts like yourself, and I really mean that, that it's everything you do, you're doing more than 1 % a day. I you're doing, I don't know, we don't have to put a number on it, but you're really helping move that needle. And that really makes me feel positive that every day someone will learn more about this topic of end of life. Maybe they'll learn about what a death doula is, right? They'll learn simple stuff, even just to something as basic as an advanced directive.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:15.632)
Mm-hmm.

David (49:22.464)
or something like that, end of life, palliative care, you name it, it's growing. And so I feel very positive about the future.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:25.476)
Yeah. Good. It sounds like Omega House might be a good resource to put on our podcast notes, that's a good list of, yeah, so make sure we get a link to that if you could. Any other links that you want us to add or anything like that, be sure and send those, of course, to your own place, of course, and anything people can do to support you. Wonderful. You did quote a beautiful poem earlier, but we could...

David (49:34.899)
yeah. Sure.

David (49:47.586)
Lovely. Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:53.969)
quote that again or do you have anything else you'd like to end us with a poem or a quote?

Annalouiza (50:00.678)
I think I like that quote again though, actually.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:02.092)
Yeah, wouldn't be bad at all. I'd like to hear that again. Yeah.

David (50:04.238)
Okay, sure. It goes like this. The desert is a true treasure for those who seek refuge from men and the evils of men. In it is contentment, in it is death and all you seek.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:21.786)
Who's the poet?

David (50:23.756)
It was, I saw it written as just a Sufi poet 12th century. I originally saw it in a story in National Geographic many years ago. Yeah. So, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:27.98)
could be roomy.

Annalouiza (50:30.636)
We are happy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:32.984)
wow. Wow. I'm sure we can. I'm sure we can find it. We've there's so many wonderful poets from that era. So, yeah, Joanna, did you have anything else you'd like to quote or say or share?

Annalouiza (50:36.773)
people it, right?

David (50:40.534)
Yeah, so.

Joanna Franco (50:45.943)
That's all. Thank you so much for having us here.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:48.556)
All right, pleasure. very big, pleasure. Thank you again so much. All right.

David (50:50.872)
Thank you very much. Thank you both. Inspirational. I love hearing the things you have to say and feeling your energy and just knowing how much it means to both of you. I mean, this can be edited out, but what drives you guys? I mean, I love to get that same energy from those who are also moving the needle. What drives you every day to do this and such? I'd love to hear that.

Annalouiza (50:52.465)
Thank you so much.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:16.291)
Well, we both, we were just telling, we just did a podcast. She probably listened to her podcast. Somebody just asked us to do a podcast with them as guests and we talked a lot about, so we're kind of freshly thinking about this. We met in seminary and we had lots of conversations and most of them were around end of life because both of us were working in as hospice or end of life care.

Annalouiza (51:21.518)
Yeah, we're good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:38.129)
And at one point Ana Luisa said, should do a podcast. And so really I think what motivates us is exactly what you said. We understand or we recognize how important it is to de-stigmatize the conversation around death and dying and loss of all kinds and the hospice and those things. And just to let people know that this is important and that you're not giving up or failing because you asked for help.

David (51:43.266)
Love it. Love it.

David (51:53.096)
huh. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:06.672)
All those things. What do you think, Annalise?

Annalouiza (52:10.097)
I think it's exactly right. And I think that I have been in the death realm since I was a little kid. just, I actually, I see death every day, every single day. I'm like, Oh, there's a death. And I've been known to pull over on the side of the road and bury animals when I see them. I'm like, this is not okay. So I really am delighted and, um, comfortable with death. And so, um, I raised my kids with lots of death, dying talks, all the

David (52:25.934)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (52:39.697)
just like, no, no, no, no, no. It is. It is so sweet and such a mystery. And I have I have a love affair because I'm also excited to go to the other side. And so for me, it's like it's almost like being like so enchanted that I want to share this amazingness with somebody else. But then you hit the wall of the culture of this land. And it's like fear and like, you know, cognitive dissonance around. We're not going to die.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:08.707)
Alright.

Annalouiza (53:09.889)
We're going to like upload neural links and never know. And I'm like, that's kind of weird. So I think for me, the big push too is just, uh, and you know, I say this so many times, but I don't get asked out to, um, dinner parties as much anymore because I will always talk about. I'm like, Hey, what do you think about this? No. Um, so I just, think that, um,

Joanna Franco (53:11.351)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:12.88)
You

Hahaha

David (53:16.846)
Yeah.

David (53:26.338)
Ha ha!

David (53:30.83)
Yeah, sure, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:30.864)
You

Annalouiza (53:36.297)
I believe that Waqila and I are disruptors and we need to disrupt this like ridiculous notion that there is no death. And we're very comfortable and I think we're sweethearts about it. So, you know, like, come on. I know we have lots of fun. So yeah.

David (53:39.352)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:47.022)
Yeah, we have fun.

David (53:50.915)
Yeah, I feel very comfortable about it. think that's lovely. like you said, like are you looking forward to the other side? And I'm sorry to sort of reference a film which inherently is created and made up stuff. But in the movie Soul, I really keyed into that scene early on where there's like this escalator going up to this light and the main character is like, wait, aren't you scared? Why are you going up there? And it was like basically a little old lady. I'm not saying that to be insulting, it's this little lady. And she's like, no, I've been.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:11.28)
He

David (54:20.632)
Looking forward to this, I can't wait to go up there. And she's all smiling and she's going up and that meant something to me, right? To people like us and hopefully to more people, they're like, hey, no matter what your personal belief is, there's something, know, taking the next step into that is something maybe to think about as an adventure or something to look forward to.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:21.594)
Ha ha ha ha ha

Annalouiza (54:36.965)
You know, well, and you know, I find that if people are really upset by that notion that there is something on either side, which some people are, they're terrified that there's God who's going to castigate them or there's just some like wickedness that they're just like terrified. And then there's the atheists are like, I'm just gonna go to sleep and it's over. And I'm like, to like, I'm tired. I could give it's nothing other than sleep. Bring it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:37.336)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

David (54:44.525)
Hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:45.808)
you

David (54:53.742)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:03.888)
Could use some of that.

David (55:04.024)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (55:06.075)
I think like Martha Graham said like, you you get to sleep when you die. And I'm like, yes, please.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:10.297)
You

David (55:11.48)
Do you remember that great line from Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil where written on a tombstone it said, or something along the lines of baseline, the tombstone said, Cosmos Mariner Destination Unknown.

Annalouiza (55:26.169)
Yeah, I read that book. I remember that.

David (55:28.204)
Remember that and there's they did like a paragraph or two just on that because the character was reading it and I remember that too Cosmos Mariner Destination Unknown and I just thought that that's it, you know

Annalouiza (55:36.902)
God, that makes me alive. have like, you have no idea. I'm always like, and my kids, I have a 16 and 19 year old and, and they're like, God, like, are you a little too excited about this? Mom, like, tap out too soon. And I'm like, I'm like, won't tap out. But, you know, well, this is we'll have to cut this out too. But but recently, I had like a little bit of a health surprise.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:48.282)
Hahaha!

Joanna Franco (55:48.791)
Thank

David (55:52.034)
Yeah

Annalouiza (56:05.041)
And my kids had a conversation and later they came into and I'm fine 100%. Everything's great. But, but my, my, my daughter was like, yeah, so it is my son's name. So it came over and she's like, is mom going to try to raw dog cancer? Cause they're like, she's not going to want to get treated because she's excited to die.

David (56:09.89)
Yeah, good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:18.948)
Hahaha!

David (56:20.391)
HAHAHAHA!

David (56:25.486)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that just shows you how open your kids are to talking with you about these things too. You know, yeah, with some humor, right? So yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:31.77)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (56:32.208)
Yeah.

yeah, no, they're actually, I just went and helped my friend with her passing yesterday and I came home and I was like, Lucero is my daughter. I had to tell you something else that I want to have you remember, cause this is important. And she's like, okay, okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:46.032)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:49.552)
Write it down.

David (56:49.646)
Here we go again! Yeah.

Joanna Franco (56:50.775)
you

Annalouiza (56:53.073)
Yeah, yeah. But this is a very death centered home. It really is like everything about us is is about acknowledging the small deaths like what Kiel and I always talk about the even this breath as it is hit like as we exhale as a small death. And I'm like, I just love that. And I feel like, I hope this emanates out into my community. I know it does because people and I mean, I've got like three people out of nowhere who want to come talk about death doulas with me. Another death.

David (56:56.94)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:18.32)
haha

David (57:18.862)
yeah.

Annalouiza (57:22.481)
But yeah, so we're you know, we're we're called to do this work my my BFF

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:26.522)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you guys for being with us and sharing about this incredible work. And I'm glad to hear it's spreading out and the ripples are there. So.

David (57:26.85)
Yeah. Very nice. So glad you do it. Thank you so much. And you too, David. Thank you very much. Yeah.

Joanna Franco (57:30.677)
It's my name.

Annalouiza (57:36.079)
Yes.

Annalouiza (57:39.526)
Yes.

David (57:42.018)
Yes, thank you.

Annalouiza (57:42.233)
Yes. If I'm ever in California, which I don't like to be because of that traffic.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:46.544)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'm in Seattle and it's not that much better anymore. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's gotten much worse. All right. We will say goodbye to you. Thank you so much again.

Joanna Franco (57:46.999)
Me too. Please, you're welcome.

David (57:50.061)
Yeah.

Joanna Franco (57:53.911)
you

David (57:54.053)
yeah, I used to live in Gig Harbor, by the way, just down by Tacoma there. So I remember it well. Yeah. hmm. As it okay.

Annalouiza (58:03.557)
Adios.

Joanna Franco (58:04.279)
Thank you. Thank you so

David (58:05.08)
Thank you so much. Have a lovely time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:06.096)
We will be in touch probably first part of the year is when it'll go be live and we'll let you know when. All right, thanks again. Take care.

David (58:12.065)
Okay, sounds perfect. Thank you. Okay. See ya.

Joanna Franco (58:12.905)
Love you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:18.436)
Woohoo!

Annalouiza (58:20.059)
mean, this is this is a new one for us. Like a nonprofit hospice center like that is super cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:22.233)
Yeah, it is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:26.16)
What a cool idea. And I guess this Omega house, we'll have to check that out. It sounds like there are others around. We'd like to know, we want to know how many of those are there? Where are they? Just not necessarily like, it's not really hospice. It's sort of like hospice plus, you know? Yeah, it's like people, hospice people will come into there and make that, you know, I love that. And yeah, it's so, what an exciting, wonderful add on to all the things we've heard about.

Annalouiza (58:40.183)
It's It's scarce.

Annalouiza (58:52.017)
It really isn't, you know, what I also love about it is a small setting. So it doesn't feel industrial and optimized. And it feels very like I know that one of the traumas I suspect that people might experience that actually being able to name it is it's like they're unknown faces and, you know, turnover of a lot of people that is in for profit death place. Right. And this sounds like

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:57.54)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:11.886)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (59:17.857)
of a cadre of humans who love being together and love supporting others. I'm like, that's great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:24.113)
Yeah, how cool is that? Talk about the ripple effect. I can just imagine the energy ripple effect that just that house is emanating, know, at love, love and care and compassion and oh my God, how wonderful is that? So, yeah, yeah, me too. I'm gonna stop this recording, but I do.

Annalouiza (59:33.21)
jeez.

Annalouiza (59:37.733)
Yeah, so anyhow, so delighted to have met you.