From Banking To SoulHub: Building A Community For Belonging And Healing with Carmen Rendell

What if the smartest decision you ever make begins with your body quietly refusing to board the train? That was Carmen’s turning point—a full-body no that unravelled a polished corporate life and opened a door to travel, therapy, and a community designed for belonging without armour.

We talk through the cost of conforming and the relief of naming misalignment, from ending a marriage to stepping away from a safe career. Travel becomes a lab for identity: anonymity in foreign streets, serendipity on a ferry, trust built one uncertain mile at a time. Out of that soil, SoulHub takes shape—not as a brand with a rigid roadmap, but as a sangha for like-hearted people. We dig into what it means to build a lighthouse of safety, prune back bloated systems, and let the right work emerge instead of forcing outcomes.

Love sits at the centre as practice, not plot twist. We explore the gap between Hollywood romance and deep companionship, the mirror of an honest partner, and the daily work of integrating the parts we hide. Guilt shows up—Catholic-flavoured, people-pleasing, relentless—and we examine how choosing alignment isn’t selfish but necessary. Adversity threads through the story without spectacle: plans that didn’t happen, identities shed, faith redefined. The reframe is powerful—challenge as teacher, not sentence—and it leads to service that feels human, grounded, and alive.

If you’re weighing a safe path against a true one, this conversation offers a map drawn in pencil: permission, pruning, presence. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s at a crossroads, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking into your week.

This Podcast is sponsored by Onlinevents

Chapters

• 1:32 Welcome And Carmen’s Background
• 2:06 The Moment She Left Corporate
• 4:24 Marriage, Misalignment, And Permission
• 5:38 Travel As Reinvention And Freedom
• 7:03 Founding SoulHub And Letting It Unfold
• 9:29 Sangha, Belonging, And Safe Spaces
• 11:15 Rebuilding The Community And Systems
• 13:30 Faith, Trust, And Life On The Road
• 15:58 Adversity As Teacher And Catalyst
• 19:30 Guilt, People-Pleasing, And Self-Priority
• 22:06 Love, Companionship, And Doing The Work
• 28:19 Closing Reflections On Self-Acceptance

Transcript

Malcolm Stern: 0:46

So, welcome to my podcast, Slay Your Draggers with Compassion, done in conjunction with my friends John and Sandra Wilson at Online Events. And I'm very happy to welcome today another of uh online events uh presenters as well, Carmen Randell and um from SoulHub. We'll hear a bit more about what Soul Hub is in a while. And um Carmen's had a very sort of um speckled career in in the corporate world, in banking and in all sorts of other things, and then finding a sort of sense of purpose, which he's now involved with. So come and welcome. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about uh what took you from the corporate world, which is obviously a world that's easy to get into and much harder to get out of as well, into what you're doing now.

Carmen Rendell: 1:32

Yeah, very nicely put. I think it for that very reason. Well, firstly, thank you for having me, Malcolm. Um, and yeah, for that very reason, it took a while, let's say. There were many attempts to try and jump ship. Um, but I think I had a final push. I kind of remember the final moment of actually even I've talked about it before, but going to um Richmond Station with my ticket to go to work. Um, and and I it was almost a full-body experience of like, I just can't do this. Um, so I think my mind had got there, but my body hadn't yet, um, or the other way around even. But then when I got to the station, I just went, I rang my boss Claire and said, listen, I just need some time out. Um, and off I went to Richmond Park, which has been my um, let's say, safe and exploration place for the last 15 years, um, to find my own answers. Um, so, but along the journey, I guess there was, you know, I guess what quite a prominent moment around uh deciding after being in a relationship for 10 years, I got married and within six months decided that I didn't want to be in the marriage. So, which as you can imagine.

Malcolm Stern: 2:46

I've known this person for 10 years and then I'm married, and suddenly I don't want to be married. Was there anything specific there? Or and and how was that for you and for him?

Carmen Rendell: 2:56

Um, difficult all round. I never think one party gets away with it uh any lighter than the other. Um I I guess even as I look at some of the themes, Malcolm, it's kind of like you know, almost getting to a final point, like having some realization. And I think these things are sitting there, but they either don't have the permission, or I've not given them the permission to be voiced. Um, and I guess that even as a pattern throughout life, it's like, okay, do I have permission to say this isn't working for me? Um, you know, and really in many ways, nothing wrong with him, obviously, um, and what I was looking for in a relationship, I probably didn't even know at the time quite what I was looking for. Um, so I just knew it wasn't right.

Malcolm Stern: 3:41

Yeah.

Carmen Rendell: 3:41

But actually trying to put your finger on what that thing is is challenging, right?

Malcolm Stern: 3:47

It's interesting because there's a similar sort of pattern here, isn't there, with you leaving your your corporate work of suddenly going, This isn't working for me, I can't do this anymore. Whereas part of it is is aligned with this is what the path should look like marriage, good job, corporate, good money, blah, blah, blah. And um, and you've managed to sort of break yourself free of that. You've also done, I know, quite a lot of traveling in that time as well. And there's a great line in Adores song that said, There's only four ways to be unraveled, and I can't remember the other three, but one of them is travel. And there is something about being putting yourself into a different environment and experiencing yourself differently. Suddenly the world can feel quite different. And I wonder what your travelling did for you and where you went.

Carmen Rendell: 4:30

Yeah, you know, I think a pattern of conforming, right? And actually, I I know I have quite a strong rebel streak within me that um that is guiding me along the way. And I guess travel travel hugely opened up my sense of uh enormity around the world, of just I guess almost to some extent losing yourself in different communities. I remember really clearly being in Vietnam and people talk about, you know, those kind of crossroads with all the mopeds, and and I'm like, oh, just an ant, you know, like if you look went up to the space and you look down, no one I could get lost in this city and no one would even know I was there. Um, and that felt quite freeing, you know, really freeing, I guess, as a I could reinvent myself in every town or country that I wanted to go to. And and so there was a freedom permission again and freedom to be myself, um, and meeting people with just such broad experiences and views of the world and different cultures, and and I loved that. I loved dropping into other people's worlds, which is probably why I'm a therapist now, right? You know, just sitting with them and hearing their stories and what's made them who they are. Um, and you know, and more than anything, I think a trust of people that actually along the route, you know, sometimes I didn't know where I was going next, and I would just wait for the next thing to appear. And then you'd meet somebody and they'd be like, Well, have you been to Patagonia? And I'm like, No, I didn't really know much about it. Okay, well, I'm going. Do you want to come with me? Yeah, I'd love to. And and it worked like that.

Malcolm Stern: 6:11

That's great. And it's sort of it's like trusting the world, you know, trusting your path to open up in front of you. And and obviously you've done that with um the organization that you've created. So you've created an organization called Soul Hub. Can you tell me a little bit about that and and what its aim is and and where you're going with that?

Carmen Rendell: 6:30

I like that you ask. This is one of the things I've tried to let more go of more and more. Malcolm is where are we going? I don't know. Um, you know, I really I do remember coming, and I guess that's the difference of being in corporate. You know, I was I was very much working on a marketing side, on the strategy side, looking uh where we're going, looking at the vision, putting purpose, putting goals, measuring those constantly, you know, and that's one way to be in life. Um, and actually what I wanted to create with Soul Hub, I believed, I guess, more in the softer organic process, um, and allowing, and I think particularly in these times, allowing that to unfold and be in co-conversation with that, so that you know it has an essence of helping people understand themselves better and creating healthier and happier communities. How that comes about can be in you know so many different ways. Um, and I so I guess it is uh uh is teaching me as much as um I'm learning about uh the world through a different lens. Um, and you know, sometimes that's challenging. Um, and and even I guess going back to that kind of bringing people together, right, who s maybe see the world in this from the same uh like-hearted places where we kind of have ended up rather than necessarily like-minded. So we want for something different and better, and yet we don't really know quite what that is yet.

Malcolm Stern: 8:05

Um so it'd be very much a part of my um uh exploration to to create what I now see very clearly uh are the Buddhist terminology of Sangha, which is communion with others of like mind. And it feels to me as though you you've established a Sangha, and I think in the world being the world being as precarious as it is right now, and it feels like we you know that everything's up for grabs in in many ways, we need our stability, and it feels like you've created what I would see as a lighthouse somewhere that people can come and know that they can be part of something and be with people who are not going to judge them, presumably.

Carmen Rendell: 8:41

Yeah, that's nicely said, and I guess as you say that, I was thinking back earlier about I guess even what I was looking for throughout my life, you know, a place to belong. Um, you know, and I remember kind of, you know, in my uh late teenage years, you know, it was around Christianity, you know, I was brought up an Irish Catholic, um, and thought I'd found some sense of home there, but something didn't sit with me. I think more of the the uh sinfulness of um some of our human actions. Um, and and I rebelled against that and didn't appreciate being feeling as if I've committed something I shouldn't do, yet it's the way I am as a human, um, and that rejection, I guess. Um, and then you know, through sport, I found it in hockey or travel, and you know, I'd find it in different communities. So I kind of got a sense, right, that there are many communities that you can belong to. And it really wasn't until I went to psychotherapy and went to School of Wizards that I walked into a room and thought, oh, here's my people. That's the first time I think I ever felt like that.

Malcolm Stern: 9:49

Then that's very interesting because it's it's almost like it's it's it's unquestionable when you really do enter into an environment where you feel at home, you feel like you can take off all your armouring, then you know that you're in a safe environment. And that's presumably one of the things you do with the groups that you run, with the organization that you're involved with, you're creating a safety of environment for people to show up and be themselves.

Carmen Rendell: 10:13

Yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 10:14

And and you've gone a fair distance along the road yourself. And I know you don't have plans about what's going forwards, but if you if you were to sort of think about what how this might develop, do you have a do you have a vision for it?

Carmen Rendell: 10:28

Uh I mean, we are literally in a in a bit of a reconstruction. Um, so you know, Andrew and I have, you know, just put a no, I guess I feel like we're in a bit of a clearing phase. That's where we feel like we are. We feel like we've built something over 10 years, um, and we're reassessing which are the bits that naturally feel flowful and uh and desired, I guess, by others, and then those areas that are not. Um, and I think, you know, sometimes, you know, for me in, you know, uh running a community, you know, I'm quite, you know, I'm not out there uh with my voice everywhere. I'm quite a quiet, you know, background kind of leader. Andrew's probably more of the performer than I am, um, which is a great compliment to have the two of us at the helm. Um, and I guess we've also come to realise that we expend, I guess what originally I was like, we are greater as the um, you know, as the sum than we are of the parts. Um, and but then I've also realized that actually, even within the well-being spiritual community, you know, people are often um very attached to the way they see the world. So you have so many differences even in this space, you know, and that we have been trying to service everyone. And by that, I mean it's just, you know, everything ends up slightly fragmented. And it is difficult, probably like as you said, what are you actually looking to achieve? So I feel like everything from the back-end processes, you know, we're letting go of our email system, we've cleared up our invoicing system, we're we're filtering, um, and and seeing where that where that is, for therefore, where do we step up from there? So it's almost feel like we're going back to the ground a bit. It feels like the right time for that. Um, and we don't quite know what that is yet, what it looks like.

Malcolm Stern: 12:26

But you know, I think in some way, when we're doing something that's that that we're inspired to do, then we also have to trust the process that actually life will offer us a signpost as we go along the way. And you said everything is synchronicity, and and I've noticed in my own on my own journey, where it's that there are some similarities. You know, I was very involved with I was in a an estate agent with some very prestigious estate agents in in central London for a while, and I could have earned great money, and something in me said, My soul's not being met. And then I went on a or I am on a journey. I found I found it in psychotherapy, but found it in running groups. But I can see something similar for you as well in terms of that actually you could have had a very simple, um, sort of comfortable life, which is what a lot of people would go for, and you've chosen a path that's stonier, rockier, and and actually more faith, which is interesting because you mentioned that you had your faith within Christianity, within the Catholic Church for a while, but actually you're having to find faith in something else now, which is really in yourself to be able to navigate the a path and and to find meaning in what you're doing.

Carmen Rendell: 13:39

That's beautifully said. Yeah, um, you know, we this summer we spent the uh summer on the road. Um, and I think that's what I love about travel because it does remind you. Um, Andrew always talks about, you know, one teacher who told him about kind of just grabbing the apple or the fruit at the right time. Yeah, you know, it will come as you're ready. And so even as simple as like our car broke down and we needed a battery, there was a guy who was like, Can I help you start the car? We're like, perfect, gets us to the ferry. Then as we draw up to the ferry, I'm like, oh my god, our angel is literally behind us. And there's a guy who's in his um pickup van, you know, and we said to him, you know, where can we get he? Can you have a look at the car? And he does, and he's like, Okay, well, I can call my mate on the other side of the island, he can get you a battery. But I said, Well, what do I do? Do we leave the car on or off on the ferry? We don't want to be stop everyone and get stuck. And he's like, just leave it on, you know, and then we get to the next place and the AA man comes and he doesn't come for a few hours, so we get to go for a beautiful walk up to see Loch Lomond. Uh, then we get to Glasgow, and then the guy who helped us, you know, was an amazing young lad who just you know went here, and at six o'clock we didn't know where we were staying. And then I'm trying to find a bed for the night, you know. Then we find somewhere a beautiful place in the lake district, and you're and it's almost like you can't do the next thing until you resolve this. Then it will show up, then it will show up, you know. And it's and that's and I'm like, that's when I feel alive. Yeah, this is this rocky path, but I don't feel like there's any other choice. I don't know if I'm sure you feel the same. Yeah, it's like I yeah, I I look at lots of friends who've got millions of pounds and big houses, and and we have none, we have nothing really apart from the most important thing, which is ourselves and our and our trust in life.

Malcolm Stern: 15:35

Yes.

Carmen Rendell: 15:35

Um, and that's what I feel everything is reminding me and teaching me that we are and I am, we all are okay if if we go to that place.

Malcolm Stern: 15:46

Yeah, my father's mantra was always well, if you've got money, people will listen to you, then you then you've got you know, then you've got a place in the world. And and I've had to disprove that by actually going through um a process of actually just knowing what works to be what where my soul longs to be. I just said soul and soul harbour is what I'm I'm aware of. So it's it is about feeding our souls, isn't it? Really? Yeah, and the theme of the podcast is very much about how adversity has has educated us. And I'm wondering what's what what you've been through in your life without wanting to sort of like draw you into a place which is over-revealing, but but what what adversity has come your way that's actually made a difference to the direction you've taken?

Carmen Rendell: 16:33

You know, it's really interesting because I was almost getting a bit hung up on adversity to the extent I was like, is it really adversity or you know, is it big, is it big enough adversity, right?

Malcolm Stern: 16:43

Yeah, it's all big enough, you know. People often sort of like that they'll someone will do a piece of work about something so extraordinarily horrific that's happened to them. And someone else, well, I can't really talk about my thing because it's it's nothing compared to that. But actually, we are challenged by what happens in our lives, and whatever it is, I bet you it's a big enough adversity. So let's go for it.

Carmen Rendell: 17:04

Well, I guess as I I look back and I literally went, Oh, this at this at this age, this is, and I'll talk about it in a moment, but just I also, you know, as you're talking about, I feel like the path, none of it's by chance, as in like is all meant to be part of me becoming the woman or the thing, the thing, the person that I am meant to be in this lifetime. So I've come to that place now, my 50s. So I, you know, so I do look back on things differently, and I also look at them differently as they happen in my life. You know, what am I to learn from this? Or what's not what am I not aligned? Where am I not aligned? Where um where am I not opening my eyes? You know, all of those things. Um, but obviously I that's in hindsight, right? So when I look back in my life and I see it differently, I guess, you know, uh the the marriage was a big um catapult or shift for me. I think I would have stayed, well, no, I wouldn't have because it's it's all meant to be as it's meant to be. But as in at that time, I was in a secure job in a bank. Um, you know, I had done 10 years. I used to sit with a friend Adrian most days and go, what are we still doing here? But like, should we go? Can't we find something else to do? And we didn't know what it was, we just knew this wasn't for us. Um, and and therefore the breakdown of the marriage, I think, then sent me, you know, packing. I literally put a backpack on, had an amazing boss at the time who just went, How long do you need off? And I'm like, a couple of months. And he said, Call me in a couple of months, let me know. And he was a Mormon actually who'd had four kids and was very, I was concerned about telling him that I that I I'd had an affair and I decided I don't want to be in the marriage. And I thought he's gonna, you know, he'll sit with judgment of me. But actually, he was like, Go, you know, I'll miss you. Uh, there'll be a job for you at the end of it, which was incredible.

Malcolm Stern: 19:00

That's lovely. Um we often sort of see affairs as as sort of like, oh, this person's trans transgressed, they've done wrong, they've sort of like they've you know, they've they've fucked it up, or whatever it is that we want to say, but actually it's very much a call for help usually. If you're looking to be met outside of this union that you've created, something's not working. And I don't know whether you were able to talk things through with your then husband, or whether you just sort of went, no, no, this is this is not it's a waste of time.

Carmen Rendell: 19:28

Took me a couple of years, Malcolm. I didn't know at the time, right? Again, I didn't know. I just knew I couldn't, I didn't understand what I was looking for. Um, and I would say that was a big part of my self-understanding. So off I went, you know, literally backpack on going. And I guess, you know, that being away on my own, um, eventually I had the courage to come back um and and try to talk to him. Um he he had moved on, um, and I don't, you know, and probably didn't really want to hear from me. Um, so but I had to had to clean up for me uh that I because at the time when I left, I didn't tell him I'd had affairs. I just said I wanted to go. So he didn't have the full story. And obviously, even in that process, your friends are going, you can't tell him that. He's it's fine, it's moved on. I'm I I feel like I have to, I have to clean up and be honest. At least then he he knows it was part of the reason or part of the what was going on. I still didn't at that point understand the psychotherapeutic reasons, um, you know, and and also I guess the biggest thing is the forgiveness for myself. And I would say that took probably another five years to actually look and go, I was looking, this is I was looking for love in different places in the wrong places, but that's what I was looking for.

Malcolm Stern: 20:57

Yes. I think that's the thing, isn't it? We look for love, but don't even understand what love might look like. And so we're sort of like it's almost like we're we're sort of blind for a long time, and now you've moved along quite a lot in that, and you're now with your your soul mate, presumably, or yes, become cellmates, but this one's a soulmate. Yeah, yeah.

Carmen Rendell: 21:23

Yeah, yeah, and that, you know, and then I was single for 10 years, really. Um, you know, and still playing out some patterns of that, still looking for it in the wrong ways, um, and knowing, you know, again, it's not necessarily about the other, it's about me and and me finding my love and acceptance of who I am, um, with all of those, integrating, I guess, all parts of me. That's what I feel like life is about. Um, how do we find ourselves, the whole self, and how do we love and you know, let go of the guilt and the people pleasing and the you know, all the other aspects that uh that get played out in life. Um, and then finding someone who you can meet at that deep soul level and walk that path with them um in all your nakedness and rawness, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 22:16

I think that's true, and I think there's something about um the this whole concept that we we have a romantic idea, particularly fed by Hollywood and a whole lot of other areas, of what love ought to look like, which ought to be swooning at the thought of this other human being sort of coming into our environment. And actually, the reality is that relationships are hard work. Um, that's not to say that I'm being an unromantic, it's more to say that actually, yeah, I think if we go into relationships, we've got to be prepared to do the work. And I'm wondering whether the work was ever actually accessible for you. So it's almost like you go to your husband and want to sort of say, This is what happened, and I want to sort of just own up to this and blah blah blah. But I'm wondering if during the course of you being married, there was sort of that that recognition came upon you that actually um it wasn't possible to do the work.

Carmen Rendell: 23:07

I I remember, I think it was about a week before my wedding, I said something like, Don't you wonder what life like, what's the point of it all? And he he went, I don't know what you what you're talking about. I don't know. And so I knew I knew I couldn't articulate what might be going on for me. I knew I kind of closed the door and went, okay, that's not here unconsciously. Um, and I would find it in other places, you know, talking to other people um in the arms of someone else, you know, um, because it wasn't accessible there. That's all it was. We were in we're in different places in life, um uh and I couldn't separate that out. Um, and I didn't, and therefore, probably a bit like Andrew, wanted to integrate again all parts of me, right? How could I not bring this part? Because I guess in some ways I used to be like, I used to feel like the weird one, you know. I was always like the slightly odd one out, and it used to be like you're a little bit weird. Um, and so to find somewhere eventually with you know, school of wizards, and then to find my my people, and for me to accept that I'm not weird, I'm just me.

Malcolm Stern: 24:19

Yes. Um actually, in order to be fully met, you have to have someone who's willing to be with who you are without you having to create a fabulous disguise. Yeah, like on Bruce Springsteen's which says, Is that you, baby, or just a brilliant disguise? And I I think we do, we disguise ourselves, yeah, and then we find our way into relationships, and then if we're lucky, we'll find someone with whom we're able to sort of go through the obstacle course of relationship.

Carmen Rendell: 24:48

I think we both quickly, really early, we had we sat down together actually with Andrew Wallace and said, um, you know, we can keep doing this with different people, which is what we'll do. You know, I'd he Andrew had been in and out of many relationships. I'd had 10 years on my own. So I knew I needed an other to be my mirror and my biggest teacher. Um, and so we both we had a framework to go, this is you're my person that we're gonna opt in to do this next level of soul searching work. Um, and for us to both grow, and as you said, it means, you know, um we it's gonna be confront confronting, right? It's gonna be like the hardest thing we're gonna have to do, but it's also the most healing journey. Um so you know, yeah, like that for me is about the what a marriage or companionship is, you know, as you say, it's not the oh falling in love, and you know, people see it like that. They're like, oh, you've got romantic dancer who's like all sexy and you know, beautiful and like and got a deep soul. And I'm like, yes, he is all of that, and he's also my you know, my teacher and me to him, you know, and yeah, and I feel very I do feel really blessed that I have found that in this life, you know.

Malcolm Stern: 26:11

No, that's pretty, I mean, that is pretty amazing because I think we we often we settle for something not knowing that there's a whole lot more to us as well. And so I notice what what I've done in relationships, what I've seen clients do in relationships is that you suppress a part of yourself in order to fit into a box that doesn't really fit you very well. And if we're wise, we'll we'll find our way to um to see what the the the signals are, what the signs are that that lead us on our way. So for me, there has to be a connection both at a physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual levels. So all those levels have to be in play at some to some degree. Don't you don't have to be utterly aligned. But if you you sort of go, what the hell is this person about? Uh it's not really a good formula for sort of a lifetime partner. I just remember also I was when I was a state agent, I remember I was in my twenties and um um my boss's secretary, who was in her 50s, said uh said, Me and my my husband, you know, we've we've we've realized that the the key to relationship is is deep companionship. And I thought, you boring old farts. As I've arrived at a later stage in my life, I realize that actually that is ultimately what we seek by being with another. And there's a whole raft of things that go with that, but deep companionship feels very important. And you obviously have that right now.

Carmen Rendell: 27:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I feel the same. Someone once said to me, like it contentment is sitting with your cup of tea and feeling at peace.

Malcolm Stern: 27:40

Yes.

Carmen Rendell: 27:41

Um, and you know, a big part of my life has been adventures, you know. I've sailed from Australia to China, I've walked over a space camp, I've done, you know, big travels and big you know, hikes, and you know, what am I looking for? You know, um, and yet can I, you know, some parts of me still wants to do some of that, but how can I do that and also be here and now um and feel I think as you say, feel feel at peace with myself. For me, that would be a a lifetime's uh I'm ready to go when that's done.

Malcolm Stern: 28:17

Yeah, well that's good. I mean I think there is, it's it's like the choice is to really uh enrich ourselves with life's experiences and just sort of go, well, it's it's a bit too frightening because we I'd better have a nice comfy heidi hole. It's more that um can we allow ourselves to follow life's experiences but also to recognise when actually we've got something that's worth resting in and staying with as well. And um so what would you say that adversity has taught you along the way?

Carmen Rendell: 28:43

Uh what's what what would be a I think um well, I think you don't get away from it in life. I think it's part of life. Um I believe that I really do believe that it's here to uh teach you whatever that you're on a the wrong path or that actually how resilient and strong, you know, or able we are to cope with um to cope with things. Um, you know, I remember my mum once saying, like you'll you know, God will only put on your shoulders what you can cope with, and sometimes, right, you know, but but it's in challenge to that, some people can't cope with it and choose to opt out of the world, you know. Um, and so you know, I'm not sure I fully believe it, but it's kind of it is uh there are many lessons in it. Um, yes. Um, and I, you know, and I just think none of us get away with everything, you know, it's there's grief, there's suffering, there's pain, there's joy, there's happiness, like it it is the full spectrum of being human.

Malcolm Stern: 29:49

Yeah.

Carmen Rendell: 29:50

So, you know, why would I expect that I'm gonna avoid that, you know?

Malcolm Stern: 29:55

Well, I used to tell myself when I was younger that um because I was a good person, I mean this is a lot of rubbish, but because I was this wife then, because I was a good person, I won't have to have all the suffering that a lot of people have, which is absolute garbage because it's not about what happens to us, it's about how we manage what happens to us and how we allow it to to change us and impact us and grow us as well.

Carmen Rendell: 30:18

Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Stern: 30:19

And then we have the capacity then to help others in that journey as well.

Carmen Rendell: 30:23

Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think sometimes, you know, we all process in different ways, you know, even knowing that. And for some people, uh, as you say, they they use that as a superpower to help others, you know.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Yes.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Um and and I and I guess, you know, yeah, why did I end up doing this work? It's because I love to see when people see for themselves that they have a different choice in life, you know, that even from that place, you know, life is transitionary and it will move and shift and change, you know, and and as painful as some things are, um, that they will move be maybe beyond or or inform something else, or you know, actually to just be in as you be in dialogue with someone and and to witness and observe that with them is I think again a real privilege to do in life, you know. I don't I think I got to a point where I was like I was selling sweatshirts for Jack Wills in Hong Kong was like my last job. And but going back to that, like literally I left there and I went, I can't do it. And I rang. And my all my bosses get these calls where I'm like, no, can't do it anymore. No, that was another great one, Claire. I was like, no, I'm done. She was like, Well, could you at least stay just till this date? And I'm like, all right, I'll give you that. But once my heart has left, some once I've realized my heart's gone, it's kind of like, okay, I I see this for what it is, and there's something else for me. Um, so you know, and and I think, yeah, a bit like you moving from your state agency, it's like, okay, there's what what a uh what a gift in life and how we, you know, that I can move through it. And now in my giving back, I guess, but it also is always and always say is clients, it's like it's for both of us. I I get just as much from the work I do as they do, you know. It's a partnership.

Speaker: 32:24

Um taking money from them because it's like I'm I'm having a rich exploration and being paid for it.

Speaker 1: 32:30

Exactly. Just learn like what can be better than trying to understand this humanness, right? Of like what's the key for you and me, and you know, and and every day you're just constantly learning and growing through through the work. And it's so it's great.

Speaker: 32:46

I think one of the big things that I've realized as as I've gone along the way is that it's um um is that understanding t takes a long time to sort of lay its seeds in us and and to educate us. And it's like you know, I've I've always wanted things to happen straight away and then been frustrated and thought I've I've got it wrong rather than it's brewing, something's brewing, which is bringing me to a different space in myself. And I think ultimately the whole purpose I used to have a flyer on my one for my workshops, and the quote I had in the front was Robert um Robert Lewis Stevenson to be who we are and to become what we can become. That is the sole purpose in life. And that actually means that makes a lot of sense, actually. That's um and interesting. I used to put S O L E the sole purpose, but I think it's S-O-U-L, that's the sole purpose of life as well.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Yeah, yeah. And who are we to know what that is?

Speaker: 33:40

Yeah, and then we find what it is, and then you know, our lives then have some meaning. But ultimately, I think we're probably in service, and it's um um if we're in the service of making money, then we often get blinded to I'm not saying there's anything wrong with money. I I think it's actually very useful to have enough to be able to do what we need to do or want to do. But I think there's something about recognizing that actually our lives have meaning when we are serving something bigger than ourselves. Which you're clearly doing.

Speaker 1: 34:11

Yeah. You know, and I was thinking as you said that, like like along the way, you know, I thought I would have a family in terms of children, um, my own children, you know, and that didn't happen. And for there was a period where I that was painful for me, you know, like I couldn't understand. And yeah, and yet along the way, there are these days there are decision points where you know I could go um get a sperm donor, or I could adopt, or you know, there are different ways. But deep down I kind of knew that I wanted it to be with the, you know, my soulmate. Um, that's was what I wanted, so that needed to come first, you know. And then life has you know presented a different path for us. Um, and so you know, again, you go, I don't I don't know why sometimes, you know, we don't know why. Um, but you know, maybe something greater than us does, you know, would I be doing maybe this is what this life is about for me, yeah. Being more in service. So that's of course it has to work out like this. So how can I let that go, you know, and and go through whatever that is, a grieving process, but you know, and then be like, okay, this is this is this is perfect.

Speaker: 35:26

Yes, yeah, exactly. Yes. And do you um and I sort of tend to see what it's been interested to observe over the years what what comes my way as a therapist, what sort of issues come my way. And they're often issues that I'm working with. So um, for example, after my daughter took her life, um, and and I wrote my book, Slady of Dragons with Compassion, based on that, um a number of people came to me who've been bereaved by suicide. They didn't even know I'd been bereaved by suicide. But that it's almost like we energetically put out something that feeds into what it is we are overcoming and transversing, traversing in our own lives. And I'm wondering what your clientele looks like, if there's any sort of like pattern in that as well.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Yeah, I no, I hugely agree. And also that for them, right? You're like, oh, that's going on over there, over there, over there, and they're different disguise, you know. Um, you know, so yeah, I think um uh quite openly, I think guilt is something that keeps showing up. Um, you know, sometimes I label it the Catholic guilt, which I'm not sure is necessarily always welcomed, but um, you know, that sense, I get an element of people pleasing, you know, doing the right thing. Uh, how do you find that balance of doing what you need to serve you, um, but also kind of being uh a loving, compassionate, caring person in the world, you know, that that I think sometimes can feel uh in opposition to each other. Um, and so really observing, you know, and part of this work with Soul Hub is um shifting more of the balance and the energy back into the work that Andrew and I are doing for ourselves. It's almost like we're not quite being looking after ourselves, but looking after others, and that again.

Speaker: 37:14

There's a delicate balance there, isn't there? That if you're just giving out, giving out, giving out, you get exhausted and become of no use.

Speaker 1: 37:20

Yeah. But what comes up for me is guilt. Right. Okay. So then it's like, well, you should have done this, or you know, that means you're this, or I mean, it's relentless, right? I mean, everywhere you look, like, oh my god, I feel guilty about I didn't call that person back. I feel guilty, I haven't checked in with them yet. I feel guilty that I didn't choose to do that for the weekend, or and I and you see it and you're like, oh my god, this is like in everything, you know, and and so at the moment, obviously a lot of my clients are coming with uh, can I put me first here? Or I feel guilty about and you and you know, and it feels like the world is rife with this this sense, this heavy sense, you know, that it's not okay for me to, it's not selfish. You know, it has to start with what works for you. And actually, every time I've done it, you know, beautiful things come in. You know, if I say no to something, then some something like unexpected arrives. And I'm like, oh, see, how much more evidence do you need? And yet still not believing it sometimes, you know. So, you know, that's um, you know, and that's probably been with me 50 years, so I'm still learning it. I don't know.

Speaker: 38:33

I think it is a slow process. We learn something again and again and again. It's like we sort of refine it. As I often say to people, that like life is not a trajectory that goes like that, it's circular, and then we confront the same issues again, but we have more resources to deal with it as well.

Speaker 1: 38:48

Yeah, yeah, you go. I thought I dealt with that, and yeah, oh yeah, no, here it is, back again.

Speaker: 38:54

In 10,000 lifetimes, you might be alright. Somebody along those lines. So we're coming towards the end of our our uh our discussion and um our uh engagement. It's been really lovely to have you on the program, Carmen, as well.

Speaker 1: 39:07

Thank you, Malcolm.

Speaker: 39:08

So um and and uh the question I always ask is what is the particular dragon you've had to uh to slay to what's the hurdle you've had to overcome in order to be who you are now?

Speaker 1: 39:21

Well, I guess the first thing that comes up is g is guilt, but I think um uh going back to the weirdness, right? Or the um the acceptance, you know. I don't know if this is a bit broad, but it does, it feels like a real personal journey to accept all of me. That's you know, that's always confronting, um, which in many ways shouldn't be because it's um you know, we're all unique, but we're all different. Um but to I guess to therefore love myself deeply.

Speaker: 39:53

It's much harder to actually at an abysmal level, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 39:56

So yeah. So to and I guess to love myself for who I am, you know. That that feels like my life's journey is to find love and acceptance of who I am in the world.

Speaker: 40:09

And I I think that's that's quite a profound statement, even though it's sort of quite vulnerable as well, I know, to say that too. But there is something about if we don't love ourselves, how can we possibly expect someone else to love us? It's almost like we want them to to do the work for us of actually making us lovely and actually, you know, ultimately the the the final arbiter is ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:32

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 40:33

You know, you're on the journey, there's a lovely, lovely line in the song which says, I'm on an endless journey through eternity. Peace be still, there is nowhere to rush. So you're on that, you're on that journey through eternity. And um, yeah, I'm glad you're doing the work you're doing out in the world. So thank you.

unknown: 40:50

Thank you.

Speaker: 40:50

Love to see you and thank you, you too.

Speaker 1: 40:52

I need some of your lines. I love your one-liners. Hello, great. Oh, that's good. I can't remember where anything comes from. It's like wonderful. So thank you very much. Uh appreciate also, you know, uh, for sharing this space today.

Speaker: 41:12

Lovely. Thank you very much indeed. See you then. Okay, bye.