Kevin Frank: Lessons In Leadership From The #1 Insulation Company In The Nation

keywords

Koala Insulation, customer experience, leadership, small business, corporate background, funnel optimization, data-driven decisions, employee empowerment, home services, business growth, team motivation, consultative approach, internal communication, conflict resolution, leadership, lead generation, empathy, small business, accountability, corporate bureaucracy

summary

In this episode, Branden Sewell interviews Kevin Frank, owner of Koala Insulation, discussing his extensive corporate background and how it has shaped his approach to running a successful insulation business. They explore the importance of leadership, employee empowerment, customer experience, and data-driven decision-making in achieving business success. Kevin shares insights on building organizational capacity and optimizing the customer journey, emphasizing that taking care of customers is essential for long-term success. In this conversation, Branden Sewell and Kevin Frank discuss the importance of teamwork, effective communication, and a consultative approach to problem-solving in small businesses. They emphasize the need for accountability and conflict resolution while fostering a supportive environment for team growth. The discussion also covers strategies for diverse lead generation and the significance of empathy in leadership, contrasting the flexibility of small businesses with the bureaucracy often found in corporate settings.

takeaways

• Kevin Frank emphasizes the importance of investing in people.
• Leadership is about actions, not titles.
• Building organizational capacity is crucial for business growth.
• Customer experience should be at the core of every business.
• Data-driven decisions lead to better outcomes.
• Every customer touchpoint matters in the customer journey.
• Empowering employees leads to greater commitment and success.
• Strong communication is vital for a seamless customer experience.
• Chick-fil-A's success is rooted in exceptional customer service.
• Continuous improvement in customer interactions is essential. Team motivation is crucial for business success.
• A consultative approach focuses on solving problems, not selling products.
• Effective internal communication enhances team performance.
• Conflict is necessary for high performance and accountability.
• Setting clear expectations is vital for team success.
• Diverse lead generation strategies mitigate risks.
• Empathy in leader

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Transcript

Branden Sewell (00:01.191)
Hi everybody, I'm Brandon Sewell, owner of Seal Pro Painting, located in central Florida. I'm also the host of the Off the Ladder podcast, and we exist to help home service business owners learn so that they can lead well and ultimately live life off of the ladder. Today's guest is Kevin Frank, and he is the owner of the Koala insulation located in central Florida. So welcome to the show today, Kevin. If you could give the listeners just a

Really brief introduction to who you are, what your business is, and a little bit of what you guys do.

Kevin Frank (00:37.71)
Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me on, Brandon. It's a pleasure and honor to be here. As you mentioned, my name is Kevin Frank. I'm the owner and president of Coal Installation of Orlando and the Space Coast.

We operate across most of the central Florida region, cover all of Orlando, all the way up to Daytona and through Flushing County, all the way down through Indian River County down to Fort Pierce. So we cover most of the central Florida region and we're full service insulation contractor. So we specialize in spray foam, blown in insulation, bat insulation, air sealing, removals, anything regarding insulation, we can take care of those needs for you. You know, we kind of tatt ourselves as the number one insulation contractor in the state. We've got almost 20 locations.

across the state of Frankly speaking, number one installation contractor in all of North America. It's well over 100 locations for Koala insulation across the country and even into Canada. And we're the official installation provider for Lowe's. So someone wanted to go into Lowe's, they decided they didn't want to DIY it. Lowe's will send them to us because they know we will take care of them. We fully background checked, vetted, insured, certified and trained. And we tout ourselves and take care of our customers.

Branden Sewell (01:45.639)
That's awesome. Now, we met through our local BNI chapter here, the Space Coast BNI. And, you know, I was very quickly impressed with you as an individual, how you carry yourself. And I can tell that you guys run an awesome operation. And so it's an honor for me to have you on here as well and get to ask you some questions about your business and really learn more about what you do and how you guys do it so well. You know, as I mentioned before, we started the show.

mission is to really help home service business owners, you know, learn how to run a business that does not require them to be out in the field doing the work. And there's a lot of learning curves to running your own business. And you know, the reality is that a lot of home service business owners may not have the training in many of the areas that are required.

in running a business, know, and that goes from, you know, just having the financial literacy, the marketing experience, sales training, leadership training, the ability to manage people and, you know, HR related things. There's so much that goes into running a business. So by, you know, diving into these topics, we can cover things to help.

home service business owners to really learn in those areas and then run better businesses. And so I know just from knowing you personally that you have a pretty extensive corporate background. So if you could just talk about your corporate experience before starting your business.

Kevin Frank (03:30.444)
Yeah, sure. And you make a very good point about the number of hats you wear as a small business owner and as an entrepreneur. My background, as you mentioned, is one where I really grew up in corporate America.

You know, I was a kid, I'm a University of Florida grads from a Gator. I have an MBA from New York University. And I started my career at Procter & Gamble. So a place where really training and development was top of mind for the entire organization. So it really rooted me in some strong fundamentals when it came to running a business and how to look at growing a business over time and building it with a strong foundation. spent over

25 years in corporate America at companies like Procter & Gamble and Reckitt Ben Keesler and those are my consumer packaged goods days. I did a lot of sales and marketing. I was a brand manager for Lysol, moved over to consumer electronics. I spent time with Panasonic as well as Samsung, managing sponsorship, sponsorship rosters, overseeing national product launches, national campaigns, spent some time with Newell Rubbermaid, head of consumer products for them.

I also spent time in education, for global education company as every peer marketing. So many, many years, many decades, which is hard to say out loud because it just tells you how old I am.

Branden Sewell (04:52.423)
You

Kevin Frank (04:55.182)
a long time in corporate America in a variety of sales and marketing executive roles. And I think it prepared me well to own my own business and to run my own shop. I've never worked harder in my life. But it's never been as rewarding for me either. So I think that as much as I had functional expertise within the sales and marketing realms, being a small business owner, you wear a lot of functional hats. So I'm now head of HR.

Branden Sewell (05:09.703)
Sure

Kevin Frank (05:25.136)
of operations. now head of finance and accounting, right? So everything rolls up to me. You know, I don't have teams that I can go and delegate it to now. So come back to me and you know, it's still a team effort. We have a good team in place now and it's going to grow with time. We've got a really good foundation to start with now. But I think that the corporate upbringing that I had and that training and development I had over years and decades in different, you know, leading companies in corporate America really give me a strong foundation to become

small business.

Branden Sewell (05:56.975)
Yeah, that's really powerful. Just the experience that you had in the corporate setting. And I think some of the most valuable things from the corporate America that we could learn as small business owners is really just those fundamental and foundational systems and processes that are needed to be successful. I don't feel like it's something that you have to reinvent. It's like there's things that work and then it's

learning them and implementing them and so being exposed to how a company like Procter and Gamble, which is a huge company being exposed to how they runs a large organization like that and do it well is I'm sure it has been extremely beneficial because you you see how they do everything right and how they handle things which you know,

I would say fortunately and unfortunately in some ways, small business owners like myself, I was never a part of corporate America. So I've had to read and study and try to figure out like, okay, how do these big organizations hire people? How do they find talented people? And then once they find them, how do they train them and onboard them and how do they?

continue to invest in their people and grow them and provide opportunities and you know, how do you take a business from, you know, where you are now and with all of those pieces grow it and continue to expand and there's just so much that you have to learn. But I think one of the most valuable things that we can learn as business owners is leadership. And, you know, at the end of the day,

I think one of the most valuable things that I've invested in is understanding what it means to be a leader. And, you know, that's helped me in my business to be able to do things like get off the ladder because I've learned things like how to how to delegate and how to entrust. I love I don't know if you've ever heard of the leader Craig Rochelle, but Craig Rochelle always says delegate.

Branden Sewell (08:20.185)
authority, not just tasks. And when you delegate authority, you're creating leaders. When you delegate tasks, you're creating followers that depend on you. And so I think that's like one of the most valuable things that I've learned to get to not be on the ladder and work in the field is, you know, delegating authority to people, finding what they're really talented at, and then giving them the space to and freedom to succeed and thrive and what they're good at.

And, you know, for us, that's having a trade. Yours is, you you've got your, I don't know, do you call them technicians in your field or?

Kevin Frank (08:56.172)
Yeah, have installed technicians that go and install people's homes.

Branden Sewell (09:00.943)
Yeah. So those install technicians, obviously they they learn that that trade that craft and you know, you're entrusting them to go and do those those things. And, you know, so anyway, there's there can be a big learning curve on just the leadership aspect of running a business. And so I'm just curious to hear some input from you. What how have you taken what you've learned from corporate America?

And what are some of the key things that you've implemented to run a business that one offers a great product and service and has a great customer experience? you know, how do you how have you accomplished that? And what are some key things you could share with people who are trying to to accomplish that?

Kevin Frank (09:52.718)
Sure. So a few different things I'll touch on if we have time. And I'll go back to, you know, I talked about starting my corporate career with Procter & Gamble.

And one of the first things that they really instilled in me was the importance of development and investing in people. So just to give you an example, the way your success is measured at Wider Project or Gamble.

Branden Sewell (10:06.023)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (10:23.202)
So I was measuring on building the business, was how are you able to grow your territory or your market or your category that is assigned to you. But that was only half of my rating. That was only half of how my performance was judged. The other half of how my performance was judged was on building BOC, what we call Building Organizational Capacity.

So half of how I, so the way I was judged was half on growing the business, building the business, and half was on building organizational capacity. Building organizational capacity is all about how we invest in other people. How much time you spend training other people, how much time you spend developing and coaching people, how much time you spend mentoring people. And that really instilled in me something that took with me throughout the entirety of my career. There was a mantra that I use with multiple teams that I use, you know, even through the decades was this idea that leadership is

the action you take is not the title you hold.

And it's really meant to instill this sense of empowerment with your people that are reporting to you or that are in the teams underneath you. Because I'm not looking for someone to just be a yes person. I want everyone to bring their full selves to work. I want you to bring all of your ideas or your thoughts or your passions or your abilities. And I want it to unleash and unlock the potential that everyone had. Because I was a firm believer that the more we can all contribute wholeheartedly

to what we're trying to do, the better off we'll be in terms of trying to achieve our goal. And it's not just for the folks at the top with the senior titles to make decisions and to tell everyone what to do. It was better if we had a collective voice and a collective energy and process that really galvanized the talents of everyone on the team. So some of the things you said earlier really resonated with me because I do believe that you have to delegate

Kevin Frank (12:16.272)
you have to give people an opportunity to.

to really make decisions and take actions that have consequence and that have impact. Because not only does it allow them to be trained and to develop, but it gives them more skin in the game. It allows them to be more committed. It allows them to be more dedicated. And then you're not fighting that battle of, they motivated or do they want to be there? Because people are going to show up because they feel valued.

Branden Sewell (12:33.329)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (12:49.568)
feel appreciated, they feel seen. all that kind of goes hand in hand, right? This idea of appreciating and valuing people and making them feel respected and acknowledged and giving them the sense of empowerment and accountability to contribute in a meaningful way. So I'm really big on that mantra. Leadership is the action you take. It's not the title you hold. I'll also mention, you talked about some of the things that

Branden Sewell (12:50.801)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (13:18.542)
help make some different organizations that have been companies that have been that successful. And I think frankly, it's something that's true whether you're a Fortune 500 company or you're a startup or small business. And it's taking care of customers. Pretty much every company I've been at, they've had it at their core of their values and missions that they're gonna meet and not just meet and exceed, but delight customers and exceed their expectations.

And the more you can take care of your customers, the more they'll take care of you. I spent a lot of my time, specifically from a sales and marketing standpoint, leading teams and leading company efforts, around this idea of funnel optimization. we're going to get into a long conversation about the different phases, components of the funnel. But at the end of it, it's all about how you take care of your customers, because that experience that they have is going to drive that next cycle or wave of customers that you have.

And you want them coming in with a positive experience based on the customers you've already dealt with. So I'll give you a quote from a

Branden Sewell (14:17.095)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (14:21.23)
from John Pepper, he's one of the CEOs of Procter & Gamble that I had when I was coming through the ranks. And he always talked about the importance of that first moment of truth. And the first moment of truth was, this has gone back a long time ago, I started my career as a chef technology manager, which is hard to even anyone to fathom about these days. But you walk into a grocery store and you see our product versus a competitor product, and someone has to make a decision about what they're gonna pick up. That's that first moment of truth. And that decision,

what gets contributors to that decision is all the things that they know about that brand before they walk in that store and as they're walking down that aisle. And that's everything from the experience they had with the brand in the past or other people have talked about it or what they've seen on advertisements or what they've heard about it, the word of mouth, what the case might be. That's that first moment of truth. And it's true even in home services that you and I are currently finding ourselves in. So people have decisions every day. have choices.

Branden Sewell (14:59.537)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (15:21.13)
every day in terms of who they're going to go with. In that first moment the truth is what's

What are doing to contribute to that decision that they have to make? The second moment of truth is when they actually utilize your service or your product in the experience they have, right? So that's gonna dramatically impact, know, do they have a positive experience and does that, you know, positively impact your next wave of customers who are gonna engage with you? But these are all things that are vitally important. So whether it's a large company or a small company, taking care of your customers, taking care of your employees and empowering you.

people are going to be vital to your success.

Branden Sewell (15:57.915)
Yeah, I love that. And I really like what you talked about with like the funnel optimization. And, you know, just for the listeners, like, you know, what I would see that is, is, you know, you're looking at your customer's journey through your company and, then making sure that every touch point with that customer is excellent. You know, so when, when they find you online, how

Kevin Frank (16:20.952)
next week.

Branden Sewell (16:24.743)
How easy is it and how optimized and efficient is it for them to contact you? If there's a barrier there, if there's roadblocks or if it's difficult to get in touch with you or to reach out for your service, well, that's an area you have to work on. Once they do reach out to you, that first point of contact is that person that they speak with.

Friendly engaging are they able to be professional and answer the the person's questions that they have and then what is it like to schedule with you and to get somebody out to their home is it quick is it efficient you know is it easy for them is there great follow-up and communication and then once you arrive what is their experience do they have a you know friendly crew or team that is You know skilled

has great customer service and provides a great experience. And then what is it like once that service is done? You know, how do you conclude it? Do you just walk away and there's no more contact or do you have a good, you know, conclusion to finishing up a project? And what does that whole process look like? And I think as business owners, we should be looking at each one of those areas constantly and trying to improve it, make sure that it's efficient, make sure that

When our customers reach out, they're having the best experience possible and finding the weak points and working on those and trying to make them better. you know, of course, we're not going to be perfect, but we can seek out those areas and constantly be trying to make them better. So I think that's just a really strong point for the listeners to be thinking about. think of that entire customer journey and make it the best that it can be. Because, like you said,

Kevin Frank (18:09.282)
Exactly.

Branden Sewell (18:13.543)
How we make the customer feel in each one of those moments is what defines our brand. And then they remember, wow, that company made me feel this way. And everything that we do contributes to that feeling and how we're remembered by those customers. And it has such an impact on who we are as a company. So I really just love that point that you made.

Kevin Frank (18:38.698)
Absolutely, and you're absolutely right.

You know, think that one of the things that I would encourage small business owners or business owners in general to do is not be afraid of the data, like dive into the data, be data driven with your decisions, be data driven with how you're analyzing and reviewing the business. You know, I think far too often it's easy to fall back on just anecdotal feedback or observations that you know, you're going through. And sometimes you've got to do that, right? I mean, it's what makes the difference between us as humans and driving a business and running a business.

versus just some machine making decision or making a call on something.

But the more you can understand the data, analyze it, see what it's telling you, the more informed you'll be to make better decisions. And I say that because we've got almost 100 reviews, all five stars. And that's something that's intentional. That's something that is the result of a lot of work, to your point, of every phase as they go along that customer journey, making sure we exceed their expectations. So at the top of the phone, there's all the marketing and efforts that you do.

to try and generate them from a demand generation standpoint and how that contributes to your lead volume and the folks coming into your funnel. But you want to make sure that you're contacting them with speed and with quality. So speed to lead, obviously, is very important. And we really focus on that. But it's not just getting to them fast. It's getting to them in a quality way with.

Kevin Frank (20:09.226)
important information that they can action and also gives them options, right? So speed to lead, the quality of contact is so vitally important. And as you mentioned, every contact that we have is meant to set up the next contact for success. So someone's calling in that first person, that person is answering the phone or calling that lead. They have to be positive, energetic, informative so that they're now giving the next person in that journey, whether it be we have

Branden Sewell (20:24.401)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (20:38.912)
a consultant going out to see them to give them a free home evaluation. It gives that person a better leg to stand on. And then that consultant is out there. want to be, they want to make sure they're educating the customer. They want to make sure they're building that relationship, building that trust, and also getting enough information so that when we have our install crews going out there, they're set up for success because they have the information. They've been properly prepped and briefed as to what they're going to find so they don't get caught off guard and they can deliver on their phase of the journey with success.

how you get all these reviews that are all five stars because you exceed customer expectations continuously along the way. And it's so vitally important. It goes back to us that you take care of customers and they'll take care of you and your business. And we've made that a focal point for us.

Branden Sewell (21:25.893)
Yeah, I think the brands that I admire most have such a focus on customer experience and you know, obviously I think one of the most focused on brands, you know, when you talk about leadership and customer experience and all that is Chick-fil-A like, you know, you can't deny just how excellent they are at delivering a just phenomenal world class customer experience and.

I talk about that so much with my team. How we treat and handle our customers makes all the difference in who we are as a company. I just did an interview today and I was talking to this gentleman and I said, I want you to be a skilled painter. But even more than that, I want you to be excellent at customer service. If you come and work for me, I want you

Because it's you know you can take a chick-fil-a sandwich and you know just any other chicken sandwich from any other brand and you know put them on a plate and most people are me like that's a it's a chicken sandwich you know. They're not going to be so much focused on how it was made and you know all that some people might have some preference but what I think is the real driving force for Chick-fil-A success is not that their chicken is like so much better so phenomenal it's their

It's the experience, right? It's their customer service that really takes its customer service almost makes it taste better. It's just the experience that you have. So I think that's so key. One of the things that I like that you hit on in the last thing you said was how you have to, as you grow and you delegate things in your business, maybe you have a

receptionist or admin person and a sales team and guys who are out doing the production, the communication and the setup, the handoff to that next team is so vital in the entire experience for the customer. So if they have a really bad experience with the first point of contact, maybe an admin or receptionist or call center, whatever,

Branden Sewell (23:44.392)
If they have a bad experience there, well, it's not going to transition very well over to production. you have to think about the salesperson too. If the sales guy is terrible at building a report with the customer and taking notes on the customer's preferences and really getting an idea of what's important to that customer, well, then the production is going to suffer.

Kevin Frank (24:12.331)
Thank you.

Branden Sewell (24:13.563)
I tell my people all the time, like we have to think about everybody else. What motivates me to get up every day is I'm thinking about my team. I'm thinking, how can I bring in the work? How can I keep this business going and make it the best that it can be so that everybody has work?

can put food on the table and, and, you know, we all do that together. It's a team effort. And if, you know, if we're just thinking about ourselves or we're not thinking about our team, then one part can make the rest, you know, fall to the ground. So it's a, it's a team effort for sure.

Kevin Frank (25:01.08)
No,

I just want to touch on that real quick because you mentioned something that resonated with me and I tell my folks about the team all the time, we're not here to sell anybody anything. I don't want you selling a product or selling a service. We take a very consultative approach. We're here not to sell products, but to solve problems. I think taking that approach, because listen, we might go into a home and their installation is perfect. I don't want anybody pressuring them to get something they don't need. I mean, that's not what we're here for.

Branden Sewell (25:03.845)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Branden Sewell (25:13.745)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (25:29.787)
Yeah, right.

Kevin Frank (25:32.76)
It's interesting. We live in a world where people love to buy things, but they hate to be sold to. We can't go in there with the approach of we're going to sell them something. How are we going to help them? How are we going to help them solve a problem? How are we going to educate them and give them the information and tools they need so that they can address the issues or the concerns that they have? How can we be a part of that solution? That's really important for us and it's something I've carried with me throughout my career before.

Branden Sewell (25:37.927)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Branden Sewell (25:45.147)
Yeah, that's

Kevin Frank (26:02.064)
becoming a small business owner is something that is a hallmark of how we operate now. You you talked about communication and it's important to have effective communication with customers, but it's important to have effective communication internally. You know, we have weekly meetings, I call them SOX meetings, the sales, operations, and customer service.

And it's an opportunity for all the different departments to come together and communicate and share information, share insights, share learnings, and make sure we're setting each other up for success, understand what's coming down the pike, understand what are the key learnings from what happened the previous week or the previous month. And it's important to have that feedback loop. So I just wanted to touch on that a little bit.

Branden Sewell (26:40.303)
No, that's really powerful. We do Monday meetings and we do the same thing. We look at the week, we look at the jobs that we have coming up and we make sure that we have all the information to hand off to the production team. Because I think one of the most challenging things as you grow as a company is having that internal communication and making sure like, I tell my sales guy, I'm like, when you go out,

and you sell that job, you should be thinking that entire time, how do I set the production team up for success? You know, like if you show up and you don't take note that they're going to need a 40 foot ladder for, you know, part of the house and they show up and they don't have what they need. Well, that's on you because you didn't communicate. You weren't paying attention to those details. weren't you weren't looking around and thinking like, OK, what do I what are some

key things that I might need to communicate to set up the production team for success. The client has dogs and you got to make sure that the team closes the gates when they go in and out of the backyard. They have cats, they're concerned about getting out the front door and they mentioned that. Make sure that the front door is always closed and don't let animals out. Just anything that the customer might have preferences on or

you know, anything that we can do to make sure that we create a great experience for the customer things we want to focus on. And so I think that's, that's definitely a very key point for you to focus on as you grow your teams and grow your business. One of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is I think one of the most challenging things for business owners, and I know this is probably one of my biggest struggles, which I'd love to get your feedback on this, especially

with your training that you've had in corporate America is conflict. You know, we can have areas that need to be addressed within the business, right? And maybe there's somebody who's not performing up to the standards or, you know, there's just something that keeps falling through the cracks, a ball that gets dropped constantly. you know, conflict

Branden Sewell (29:06.935)
and having those hard conversations can be hard, right? But they're necessary for the team to operate at a high level and to, you know, offer that experience that we promised to our customers. So I'm just curious, do you have any feedback, any recommendations that you would share with the listeners on the best strategies that you have for leading your teams?

Maybe some strategies for feedback and even when that's not positive feedback. And how do you handle moments of conflict that might be necessary to operate at a certain standard and level in the business?

Kevin Frank (29:48.098)
Yeah, no, it's a great, great topic to cover. I think what's important is it's vitally important that you set expectations for your team and that's how we're going to operate as a team, the values that we hold, hold fast and the expectations that we have of each other. Because as I talked earlier about, hey, leadership is the action you take, it's not a title you hold. That's about empowering people and giving them the opportunity to lead and to contribute. But with that comes accountability, right?

everyone has a role to play and that role is vital to the collective success of everything we're doing. So if you're dropping the ball or if you're not bringing it the way you need to, like that has an impact beyond just your silo or your lane that has an impact across the organization. So that's where accountability becomes key because you sometimes have to have those conversations where you have to remind folks of, like this is why you're here. This is why what you're doing is important. And you have to sometimes reinforce or remind them of

why what they're doing is important. Like this is not just your little area here, your little area that you think is little actually impacts everything else that we're doing, right? This is like an assembly line, right? It's everything, if one thing falls short, all of a sudden the rest of the final product doesn't look this good, right? So, and sometimes you, to your point, there's conflict and you have to have those conversations. And like I said, it's about holding people accountable. But if you've built that sense of trust and that sense of, you know, sharing and

development within your team where people know that hey listen I'm not Kevin's not gonna put me in a position where not to succeed like my goal my role as a leader is to put everyone in a position to succeed right and see it help everyone grow and develop

Branden Sewell (31:29.659)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (31:32.064)
So if you look at people or if you set that expectation and you kind of create that environment, it's they're going to view it through the lens of, OK, this is to help me get better because ultimately you have to perform right. I this is a every we're not. There's not nonprofits that we're operating. We try to try to grow. We're trying to make revenue. We're trying to make sure everyone can have a have a living to make a living. And that means everyone has to contribute in their way and wait in that meets expectations. So is it means there's some

Branden Sewell (31:44.369)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (31:48.591)
Yeah, right

Kevin Frank (32:01.968)
you have to have those conversations where you lay things out and try to do it in a constructive fashion. But also just be very honest and be very candid. I don't think you should go things if someone's not meeting expectations, you understand the layout of where the issues are, where they're falling short, why that's important, why it's important that they step things up. And to be candid as a small business owner, you have to be prepared to hire fast and fire faster if need be.

Branden Sewell (32:20.635)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (32:30.767)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (32:31.86)
as much as you want to create an environment of people who can contribute and grow. If folks aren't the right fit for what you're trying to do, that happens. You that happens. This is life. Everything's not going to be hunky-dory all the time. And you wish people well and you send them on their way or, you you help them transition. But you have to have people that are committed, that are bought in. If it means you have to give them a little bit of coaching and development, if you see that potential in them and it's worth it, then absolutely go do that with them.

Branden Sewell (32:42.022)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (32:46.044)
Yeah.

Kevin Frank (33:01.806)
Don't be afraid to hold people accountable. If they can't meet your standards and meet your expectations, sometimes it's better to part ways.

Branden Sewell (33:09.573)
Yeah, that's really good. I really appreciate your feedback on that. I'd say it's probably one of the hardest areas for me to lead in. And I think a big part of that is I just I have so much grace and I see so much potential in people that sometimes it's hard for me to to let go and realize like, hey, this person has decided this is the path that they're choosing to take. And I can't force them to grow. I can't force them.

to do what's required of them, no matter how much potential I see in them. So that's always challenging for me, you know, that firing fast part, you know. I love, I listen to a podcast called the Entrez Leadership Podcast, and it's led by Dave Ramsey. He's obviously known in the personal finance world. But he has a leadership side of his business, and it's called Entrez Leadership. And I love one of the things that he says all the time is like, to be unclear is to be unkind.

and to be clear is to be kind. you know, we have this, sometimes I think in our mind, we think by avoiding conflict that we're being kind because we're like sparing somebody from, you know, the truth or that thing that they need to hear that's going to help them to grow, which can be uncomfortable. And so I think sometimes as leaders, we think we're protecting them by not sharing what we need to.

but in reality, we're actually hurting that person. so I think that it's definitely a hard principle to learn and apply, but I think it's important to say that when you are clear and you create clear expectations, but then I think the other side of that is really holding the standard. So it's one thing to say like, hey, this is the expectation and this is...

I'm being clear about this. And then the other side of it is like your follow through and your accountability. I've told you what the expectation is and hey, you haven't lived up to it. And this is what has to change or this is the action that's going to take place. And so I think that, you know, it's hand in hand, be clear, create proper expectations, but then follow through and, and hold people accountable. So I think that's pretty powerful.

Kevin Frank (35:25.73)
Yep, so, indeed, indeed.

Branden Sewell (35:28.857)
Absolutely. You know, as we bring this to a close, I just like to ask, like, is there anything that you feel like maybe we haven't covered or something that you would really like to share with the audience to help them in their leadership and maybe help them to run and operate a better business?

Kevin Frank (35:50.158)
Yeah, I'll leave you with a couple of thoughts. One, in the marketing space, just because that's where I spent a lot of my time over the course of my career and some of the things that I've really tried to focus on with this business with co-op installation. I've tried to make sure I take a diversified approach.

to our lead generation, demand generation. And maybe it's just my learnings from the corporate America experience that I have, but I never wanted to be completely reliant on just one lead generation source. You wanna have multiples that are multiple channels that are contributing to leads and contributing to your business so that you don't get caught unprepared when something goes awry or something unforeseen happens.

Branden Sewell (36:38.503)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (36:40.462)
as much as you can try to cultivate multiple lead generation sources and channels. So you have diversity in terms of what's contributing to the success of your business. So whether that means it's a Google PBC campaign or it's radio or it's partnerships or if it's print advertising or SEO, whatever the case might be, try to diversify that so you have a multitude of different lead generation sources that are contributing to that funnel.

Branden Sewell (36:46.033)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (37:10.356)
right? And then, you know, and as I mentioned, try to be data driven, look at what's happening within your funnel. How are things converting in terms of, you know, clicks from your site into actual leads and leads into actual, you know, estimates or appointments, whether the case might be and how that's matriculating through to become actual, you know, revenue producing jobs and just understanding what those conversion points are. Because when you see that data and you understand what's how that's performing, then you know where to spend your time, where you know where to, you know, what needs

Branden Sewell (37:11.217)
Yeah, that's good.

Kevin Frank (37:40.198)
to be addressed and you can have, you know, spend the time and resources to do that. Otherwise, you know, that's just flying blind and, know, as a small business owner, there's plenty of things to keep you busy every day if you, you know, if you allow that to be case and instead of, and not focusing on kind of where the true issues lie. So just encourage folks to do that. From a leadership standpoint, you know, I mentioned this earlier, Spout, you know, my job as a leader is to make sure I'm setting up my team for success in the different roles that they play.

And also providing where possible a pathway for their growth, right? So if it means cross-training or giving folks a chance to spend some time or grow into another area where they've expressed some interest, where I see there's a particular talent or expertise, try to encourage that and allow for people to grow within their role and be a star within their role, but also to learn other facets of the business so that they can feel like they're growing and they're developing. Like I said,

It's something that actually allows people to buy in more because they feel like they're being valued. They feel like they're being appreciated. they bring themselves to work in a more wholehearted way. I think people talk about the golden rule in terms of treat people the way you want to be treated. And you got to imagine, put yourself, some, I always try to take a very empathetic approach. So if I was in the shoes of that person, how would I want to be treated? How would I want to be given a path forward if there is one that exists?

Branden Sewell (39:01.884)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (39:09.858)
I try to put people in a position to succeed where, if at all possible. But still, we just talked about setting expectations and holding people accountable.

Branden Sewell (39:19.291)
Yeah, so we have a few minutes left. I want to ask you this quick question. when you with the marketing in thought and leadership, are there things I think people ask themselves all the time, like, you know, some people leave corporate America to be a part of small businesses because they provide a different feeling of like belonging and not being so big. Are there things that you specifically

looked at in your corporate role and said, okay, I'm not going to do this in my small business because you know, for whatever reason, whether it was like how you handle your teams and how you lead them or how you make decisions on like disciplinary action or whatever. Can you share anything that you did not want to take from corporate America and and apply it in your small business and why?

Kevin Frank (40:13.006)
Sure.

Kevin Frank (40:16.558)
Yeah, think that one of the reasons why I left my corporate career and moved into being an entrepreneur and a small business owner was I wanted my hard work and all the efforts that I was putting forth to be to my own maximum benefit, number one.

Hey, if I'm going to bust my ass and be spending all these hours to grow a business, I'd rather be my business than someone else's. So that was number one. And number two, just from a lifestyle standpoint and sense of.

feeling fulfilled, I wanted to get out of the bureaucracy that oftentimes comes with a career in corporate America and large companies, right? So whether it's how the business is performing and how the business responds to that in terms of taking care of its people, I wanted to be able to have more control of that and also take a more

you know, familial approach to it. Listen, we're all a team here. Sometimes we're going to go through valleys that are to come with the mountains, right? So we're going to have peaks, we're going to have valleys, and you know, how do we weather those storms? And we could do it in a way that takes care of everyone and tries to treat everyone as part of the team versus, you know, looking at people as just as a number and, you we're going to, you know, we need to make this kind of profit this quarter. we don't have the revenues, we're just going to cut costs and

Branden Sewell (41:31.463)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Frank (41:52.064)
and those costs come with headcount. And sometimes that's necessary, right? Even in big, even in small companies. But I think I wanted to take an approach where I had more control of that and where I could kind of treat people who are.

contributing in a significant way and part of what we're trying to do and trying to grow and be able to protect that, right? And be able to protect the development and the growth of people. you know, trying to get away from the bureaucracy and also just having more control of my fate and my career was one of the reasons why I decided to do what I did.

Branden Sewell (42:12.519)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (42:26.087)
Yeah, that's really good. You know, in this this episode with a quick story just to kind of reflect on what you said in in 2020, obviously, we had the pandemic and my wife works for a large company and she got laid off five weeks before our son was born. And so with that, we lost our health insurance, you know, everything income, you know, that we obviously were.

expecting in a time where we're having bring a new baby into the world. And I'll never forget the way I felt, you know, when that happened and getting the news and, you know, me being a small business owner, obviously, I was going through the same pains that many businesses all over the nation, you know, all over the world were facing, you know, these these questions of, we're going through this. And, you know, maybe now is the time where I cut

you know, all of these people and lay people off and those are hard decisions that you have to make. But I think for me, I strive to make that the absolute last resort, right? So even I will at times make decisions within my business to my own detriment because I want to support my team. And I'm so thankful for them and the hard work that

Kevin Frank (43:42.926)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (43:50.147)
they bring to the table every day. you know, sometimes they don't even realize the sacrifices that, you know, we make as small business owners for them. But it's driven out of that desire to not be the type of company, like you said, that just looks at the profit and loss statement says, well, time to cut the, you know, it's time to eliminate some of these people. And, you know, I'm usually thinking like, how, what can I do?

Kevin Frank (43:57.08)
Yeah, for sure.

Branden Sewell (44:19.513)
more. How can I work harder to keep my people not how can I let them go? So I don't know. just I think that's an important thing to keep in mind as a small business owner as you build the culture and build your company. I think that's what attracts people to small businesses is having that that attitude and mindset. So anyway, Kevin, I really appreciate your time and

Kevin Frank (44:36.204)
I agree with what he said.

Branden Sewell (44:46.531)
coming on here and sharing so much value with my listeners. I'd love to at some point do a follow up episode and maybe do some deep dive into marketing and sales more. But I love the value that you've brought today. And I hope that you if you're listening to this episode, I hope that you've gotten a lot of value from it. If you're watching on YouTube, please like this video, comment, share your feedback, subscribe to the channel, share it with somebody if you're listening on any major podcast.

podcast platform, whether that's Apple or Spotify, please rate and review the podcast. That'll help the podcast get out to more people so we can help more small business owners just like you. And lastly, if you need any resources, please check the show notes below. There's some things down there that'll help you to run your business better. And as always, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Off the Ladder Podcast, and we'll see you next time.

Kevin Frank (45:43.608)
Thanks for having me.