Scaling to 25 Trucks: Insights from Wirks Moving's CEO

Summary

In this episode of the Off the Ladder podcast, host Branden Sewell speaks with Allison Endicott, CEO of Works Moving, about the complexities of running a home service business. They discuss the challenges of growth, the importance of change management, pricing strategies, and how to attract ideal customers. Allison shares insights on building referral networks, incentivizing team performance, and managing cash flow effectively. The conversation also touches on the role of a CEO in a home service business and the use of technology to improve efficiency, including the benefits of using Live Switch for virtual assessments.

Takeaways

Allison Endicott transitioned from admin to CEO through strategic growth.
Change management is crucial for business efficiency and team buy-in.
Scaling a business requires understanding pricing and market positioning.
Attracting ideal customers involves effective SEO and networking.
Building referral networks can significantly boost business growth.
Incentivizing team performance can lead to better results.
Cash flow management is essential for sustaining business operations.
A CEO's role is to provide vision and leadership for the company.
Leveraging technology can streamline operations and improve customer service.
Understanding the balance between debt and cash flow is key to growth.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Works Moving and Leadership Journey
03:06 Navigating Change in Business Operations
06:00 Scaling a Home Service Business
08:50 Pricing Strategies for Growth
11:54 Attracting Ideal Customers
15:03 Building a Referral Network
18:11 Managing Cash Flow and Financial Planning
21:12 The Role of Debt in Business Growth
36:05 Leveraging Credit Wisely
40:36 The Role of a CEO in Business Growth
46:13 Building Trust and Company Culture
57:40 Innovative Solutions: Using Live Switch

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Transcript

Branden Sewell (00:01.289)
Hi everybody, I'm Brandon Sewell. I'm the owner of Seal Pro Painting located in central Florida. I'm also the host of the Off the Ladder podcast. And we exist to help home service business owners learn so that they can lead well and ultimately live life off of the ladder. Today's guest is Allison Indicott and she is the CEO of Works Moving in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the show today.

Allison Endicott (00:29.282)
Thanks for having me, Brandon.

Branden Sewell (00:30.695)
Yeah, absolutely. So really quick, just for the listeners, could you just give them a brief introduction to just who you are, what your role is in the company, how you got into the moving industry, and even involved with Works Moving?

Allison Endicott (00:49.388)
Yeah, most definitely. So I started with works moving in storage five years ago. I came in from a background in a few different things. In the course of my career, I've done restaurant management pretty heavily. I worked for a low voltage company prior to this in the back office. I have skills to do coding and a lot of technology skills. And so it kind of all led

to when I was looking for a position, I came in as an admin in this company and one of the projects that I worked on was integrating the information systems, migrating them from Excel spreadsheets into databases. That's kind of a natural transition into a lot of financial knowledge, a lot of financial reporting. And so from there, I ended up stepping into more of an executive role. know, works moving in storage, we run, we've run 25,

trucks is how many that we have on lot and of those you know on any given day we're dispatching you know 15 to 20 teams doing jobs on those and with all of that comes a lot of complexity and I'm overseeing the strategic function of expansion into more and more trucks.

Branden Sewell (02:10.697)
awesome. You know, being a home service business owner, you know, a lot of times you're like, you're sitting back and you're like, Okay, how do I grow this thing, get it to a place where it doesn't require me in the day to day? How can I have more freedom and continue to grow this thing? Right? And

I think a lot of the same questions come up for a lot of business owners. And it's those questions like, okay, as I expand, I'm going to need to hire more people. How can I afford that? You know, as I grow and expand, I'm gonna have to buy more trucks. And obviously branding is important. So like, how am going to brand and I'm going to need to purchase the software and, you know, as you said, you help

migrate from Excel to, you know, like these, I'm sure you have like CRM's that you use. So that's a lot to think about. And then you have the nuance of like pricing and obviously, you know, people are going to always be like, like, how could I charge that? And it's like, okay, well, I have to charge more to be able to afford all of this overhead that's going to enable me to run a business efficiently at scale.

because it's like if you're running, I'm sure if you guys had 25 trucks running 15 to 20 teams and you were doing that on your old systems, it would probably be chaotic, am I right? Yeah.

Allison Endicott (03:49.463)
yeah.

Yeah, when work started, dispatch is done from a chalkboard in the operations office. was a black, essentially a blackboard. You know, you drew out your grid and you wrote the teams down and then, you know, if something changed, you erased it, you moved it over, you rescheduled it. When I first started, there were paper folders and so they would make the job folders when the job was booked and then if something changed, you had to go find that paper folder, you had to

to change the information in it and then you had to put it back where it was. You lose paper folders, you don't keep track of them. If you want to know anything about it, you have to go find it. So they, when I came on, there was already a CRM, but it was still kind of integrating into a paper world. So moving was a dinosaur. Nobody was tech savvy. Everybody was working off paper. So with all of that, you come in and you start to look at these systems and you look for places where you can optimize.

rules and filing systems are that you should never touch anything more than once. instantly you're like, right, we're making job folders too soon. So we need to push that out. We don't need to make them until, you know, three days before the move. So you do little changes like that so that your current systems evolve. And then eventually we move to where we're not even printing paper folders. We were able to go, well actually there were several steps in between. I ended up creating a system where it would convert from the CRM into the paper folder

that we needed and then we got an app to where we didn't even need those paper folders. All of those were done in baby steps and I think that what's most important is how you introduce change and how you manage that change and how you talk to people about change because everybody loves paper folders until they know what it's like to not have paper folders, right? Everybody loves our CRM. We actually changed CRMs last year so nobody wanted to change CRMs but

Branden Sewell (05:42.887)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (05:49.952)
but when you lead with the why and you do it right, then you can get your team to go along with you on that. It's actually easiest to change and systemize when you're small. You have fewer people who you have to come drag along with you. But that's something that I can speak to as far as transitioning systems into a more scalable and sustainable way. It's just baby steps and look for small optimizations that you can build on.

Branden Sewell (06:00.988)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (06:17.641)
Yeah, that's good. You know, I was just recently talking to another business owner about change. And one of the things that we talked about is just how difficult it can be when you're when you're used to doing something a certain way, how difficult it can be to bring people along. But one of the things that was emphasized in that conversation,

was it has to, you know, the way that we talked about it is like you introduce the change, but you're taking ownership of like, how do I explain this? you're, I don't want to say the word fail, but it's like you're going to your team and you're saying, hey guys, this is an area I haven't done well in and we need to make this better. And,

This is why we're going to be implementing it and this is to help serve you. And I'm basically saying, explaining that the need for the change is to serve your employees, if that makes sense. Like I'm not doing this to make your life harder. I'm doing this because I want to make things easier, more efficient for you. And in order to do that and to serve you better,

these changes are needed and this is why and then not making it a thing of saying like hey you guys aren't doing this well and this is why we need this new system or making it about like something that they're not like hey you guys aren't producing and productions a mess and like we're you guys are doing jobs too slow and everything's inefficient and instead turning it around and saying like hey

I need to do this. This is something that does that make sense what I'm saying? Like and and coming at it from a place of like, hey, this is to serve you and to make your job easier and just how that can be better received.

Allison Endicott (08:28.354)
That makes perfect sense. You touched on, you kind of touched a little bit on ownership and either the owners or the leaders failure in a certain regard. I kind of take that as admitting being vulnerable.

Branden Sewell (08:44.04)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (08:50.272)
When you are vulnerable with the folks who are following you, it's very humanizing and it can actually cause people to rally around you much more than when you come in and you act like you know all the answers and your way is the only way. But to come in and just kinda admit that like, I can't keep up with this in the way that it's currently done in order for me to be better

And in order for you to be better, this is what we're going to do. yeah, you mentioned the why. mean, start with why, right? Like ask for help is a big one. So don't come and tell necessarily buy-in is huge. So the why helps you get that. And then I don't know if you know the concept of like early adopters, but if you can get that portion of your team who are most comfortable with change on board, then the rest will follow.

Branden Sewell (09:28.179)
Yeah.

Allison Endicott (09:50.048)
So, you know, I have a powerhouse player that I can throw anything at her and she'll adapt to it and she'll adopt it and she'll own it and she'll explore it and know everything about it. If I can get her on board, she'll get everybody else on board. So.

Branden Sewell (10:05.309)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so if you could like that's good. So you got it. You implement these systems obviously in a business that's growing and scaling. Can you speak to? You know, as I was saying, even when I think about myself, you know, I'm nowhere near 2520 trucks or 20 teams, right? So I've got three crews. I'm constantly thinking to myself. How do I? How do I scale this?

to more trucks and how do I add to these teams and what does that look like? So I'm just curious for the person who's listening to this and maybe they're not even where I'm at where like I'm almost out of the day to day, but they're just exploring that idea. Maybe they're working on the ladder or on the truck still and they're thinking like, how do I?

even begin to think of building a business that doesn't require me. And they're gonna run into those roadblocks of like, what's my pricing have to be like? Like am I to be a bigger business? Am I gonna have to be like the most expensive? Just if you could speak on some of that from your perspective, that would be appreciated.

Allison Endicott (11:24.502)
Yeah, I mean, this is 101, right? Well, it's like pricing 101. If you want to be the best, you have to charge the highest prices. There's that old mantra of, you know, we do three things. We do good, cheap, and fast, but you can only pick two. So, you know, if we're good and cheap, we're not going to be fast. And so what you have to do when you're trying to get off the truck and you're trying to establish that price point is

Branden Sewell (11:34.813)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (11:40.125)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Allison Endicott (11:54.388)
you have to understand what you are offering that's unique in your market. You can be a massive company and be the cheapest. mean, Walmart proved that for many, many years, right? But they're not great. They're not the best quality, right? Like, they're not attracting rock star people on their front line. Then you have your your higher end brands. I mean, you have your Louis Vuitton, Louis Vuitton, who are, you

know, they're not concerned with price point, they actually want to be ridiculously expensive. And so they're going to make up with that reduced quantity through quality. And they're going to make up from having more customers with having better customers. We all want to do less work for the same amount of money as a business, right? Because every time you roll your truck, you're taking a liability on right, like something may happen to your team or to your vehicle or to the customers. Whatever your

servicing with the customer, something could go wrong. So there is that pursuit of that higher price with lower risk and fewer customers, which equals less work. Not everybody can be the best though, right? Like you can't have an entire market of A players because there's always going to be somebody who comes in and offers a cheaper rate to the people, to the customers who need that cheaper rate, right? So in moving, we offer a high end moving service, which

Branden Sewell (13:19.465)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (13:24.172)
means that if you have a very nice sculpture, you have taxidermy, if you have, you know, China that needs to be packed, my team can handle that. We can come in and we can do it with excellence and we can do it, you know, efficiently and we can do it with reduced risk.

There are people out there who cannot afford movers like that. They cannot move themselves. They don't have the friends to help them move. There are folks who maybe have a disability and so they're on a fixed income. Somebody has to take care of them, right? So while I may be the premium priced mover in my market, there is definitely an opening in the market for a lower priced mover. And you just have to decide by looking at your market, understanding who's calling you, understanding

what you're good at, understanding what you want out of life as to what you need to set your price to fill what niche you want to chase after. So is it right to be the cheapest? It's wrong to be the cheapest and have low quantity because you're not going to make up for the top line that you need to grow.

Branden Sewell (14:20.265)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (14:33.358)
But if you are going to be that highest price, you need to make sure you're bringing high priced service. You can't be high priced and not bring high priced service, which means that you have to attract the right people and you have to justify your high prices. You have to have the best people. have to have a good reward system in place to where they are motivated to serve the customer. You need to have Google reviews that back you up, that prove that you're the good best. You know, you need to have a sales team that's clean cut, that's responsive.

Branden Sewell (14:33.554)
Right.

Allison Endicott (15:03.372)
customer service needs to answer the phone, all of those things cost money and that's why you have to have that higher price.

Branden Sewell (15:09.225)
Yeah, that's good. So you talked a little bit about your your customers. So maybe somebody is listening to this and they're like, Hey, I want to focus on being the, you know, most expensive, highest quality, best value company out there. But nothing but the

Let's, how would you say this, unideal or non-ideal customers keep calling me. How do you set yourself apart in your market and how are you attracting or what is that process been like for attracting your ideal customer avatar? Like somebody who knows like, okay, I'm coming to this company and I'm not expecting to pay cheap prices for it. Does that make sense?

Is there like a specific strategy that you guys have or?

Allison Endicott (16:08.19)
Absolutely, it makes sense.

So a few different things with that. I will say that one of the most painful reviews that I read is one that says that we were affordable or that it was a great price. I hate those reviews. They hit me in the heart where I'm like, oh, we could have charged more. But obviously, you know, our sales folks adjust the pricing to try to capture the business. We're seasonal, so we have to do that sometimes, not to divert. Okay. So first thing to know is what

Branden Sewell (16:23.594)
yeah. Yeah.

Branden Sewell (16:28.229)
Yeah, yeah.

Allison Endicott (16:42.0)
what your customer avatar is. So in your question, we already have defined them as, you know, they are probably upper middle class, they do have disposable income. You need to identify what they're searching for. So we have an amazing SEO company that it does a lot of legwork, they are industry specific. So they know what works and they know what works like in all markets and they know where like in our market, we may be not having as high of search volume.

If you can't afford a killer SEO company, strongly encourage you to use any one of the learning software platforms that are available online now to do a basic intro into SEO course. And then there's a variety of tools that you can use. Some are free within Google and some are paid. Obviously the paid ones are better. But to identify what keywords are being searched for in your industry. One piece of advice that I thought was really good is to like kind of think through

go through your competitor sites and look for like if you know that one of your competitors is doing really well in the market and they do have those high-end customers and you're like man I'm always losing out to people from you know Smith Electric like all these customers tell me that they're better than me like what's going on you know so go on their website and look for what they are stuffing into their content as far as keywords go as far as services that they're advertising because what you want to do is you want to identify what your target

customer avatar is searching for. think most of us in the home services industries get a lot of business from Google and from LSA and you're definitely going to get more of the right kinds of customers if you have the right kinds of content pointing at them. Outside of that, we get a lot of business from referrals.

And those are previous customers. We're fortunate enough to have 15 years of customers who can throw our name out there. With that being said, you want to make sure that you take care of your customers when you have them because they're the ones who are going to become your referrals. We have built up connections with realtors because in moving, it's all about meeting your target customer when they need you, right? So if you're a plumber, a really good person to network with might be like a

Allison Endicott (19:04.548)
mediation company or something where like when the pipe bursts like they have to contact a plumber, right?

Branden Sewell (19:10.963)
Yeah.

Allison Endicott (19:12.846)
So or like general contractors is another good one, I would imagine. So saying all of that building up that network of people who match and align with your values. So what we don't like to do is build relationships with realtors based on exchanges of financial favors, right? Like, I don't want a realtor who asked me what they get from a referral they give me. I want a realtor who's referring me as a high quality mover because they know that I will take care of their client. And I will make it right if something

something doesn't go right. That's the kind of relationships that you want to build. If you aren't out there taking cookies to people who can give you business, you're missing a huge opportunity to not only get quote unquote free leads, but you can actually cater your pipeline to be the target clients that you're wanting. For a realtor, if I know that a realtor is selling low dollar housing in a bad part of town, I'm not going to drop cookies off to them.

I'm gonna drop cookies off to the lady who just sold the multi-million dollar house up the street that is in my area my target client.

Branden Sewell (20:20.487)
good. So if you're based a lot on referrals, do you guys do BNI or any like local network marketing or?

Allison Endicott (20:30.242)
We have done BNI before. We don't currently do it. What I will say with all of those networking groups is you get out what you put in.

Branden Sewell (20:37.394)
Okay.

Branden Sewell (20:41.865)
yeah, for sure.

Allison Endicott (20:42.872)
So you got to show up early. You got to talk to people. You got to build those relationships. You got to stay after and have those talks and those conversations. We built up this business not doing that. And so it's new to us to try it. What we have found is that not necessarily B &I, but there's a group in our area that's like a business meetup that happens once a week. And it's a coffee shop and it's much more informal. Those are definitely

good ones. I'm part of a group called the CEO Roundtable which is a Chamber of Commerce group and that's been really good just you know promoting us within the community.

I'm a member of Vistage, which has been very, very nice. That's a great group. It is, you know, for a little bit of a larger business, but strongly recommend building those relationships up. Facebook groups, local groups are actually a really great option for anybody whose wife or either if you're a woman who owns the business or if you have a wife who can go join like a mom's group or something. Like those are great sources right there. So.

Branden Sewell (21:41.497)
yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Branden Sewell (21:53.224)
Yeah. 100%. Yeah, I'm big on that. call it like modern day door knocking. Because it's like.

yeah. Yeah. So we, well, we kind of have a non aggressive way of door knocking. We just go, we'll go door to door. And the way that I tell my guys is like, if somebody is outside, and they're open to talking and having a conversation, we'll chat with them. Otherwise, we're just gonna leave a door hanger, we try not to be too intrusive. I used to do door knocking. And the company that I was doing that for had like,

Not the best reputation, so it was kind of brutal. Right.

Allison Endicott (22:37.1)
You get them and then they cancel the next day. Question on that, so Lenny Gray, you know him? So he has Door to Door Millionaire, which is a really good book if you're gonna do door knocking. And then my question to you is do you do any sort of incentives for your team to door knock if they get business? Do they get anything from that?

Branden Sewell (22:46.578)
No, I don't.

Okay.

Branden Sewell (23:00.271)
Yes, so we give, we'll do like percentages on the total of the job. if basically all of my guys on my trucks, they'll have door hangers so they can hand those out or take them to neighbors, put them on houses and stuff. And if they get a lead that comes from that and it's sold, they'll get a percentage. And then same thing for my sales guy.

You know he can get an additional percentage on his commission if he's the one who generates the lead. So yeah we do that and you know I use call tracking so I also like a sign phone number so that I know where where those leads are coming from. So like if so and so put out their business card or door hanger or whatever I know where those leads are coming from. So.

I'm not sure if you've heard of call rail, but we use call rail in our business and. Yeah, so yeah, I'm big on that kind of stuff. I also have some other like incentives that I'll do with the guys, you know, but that it's not related to the door knocking or putting outdoor hangers and stuff. But definitely love to do anything that can incentivize performance, so that's.

Allison Endicott (24:02.318)
Absolutely, I've heard of CallRail.

Allison Endicott (24:24.27)
Yeah, performance pay, right?

Branden Sewell (24:26.153)
Yeah, yeah. you know, another way that we've really grown our team is through bonuses for bringing on new employees that stay. So like, that's another thing I love. Like people will ask me like, well, how do you find great people? I'm like, well, my strategy is if I can get somebody from like another company who, and I had this conversation with somebody else recently, it's like great people aren't just sitting at home doing nothing. They're probably working for another company.

So it's like if I can recruit somebody from another company, they come work for me and I say, hey, I'll give you $500 if you refer somebody who comes on our team and they last 90 days or more. After their 90 days, I'll give you a $500 bonus. I've had so many guys leave other companies and come work for me and

Because when that one person comes, they're like, wow, this is so much better. Hey guys, come over here and work here. And plus, they know they're going to get a bonus for recruiting. So I've been able to recruit and bring in some really great guys who are hardworking, dedicated, great at their craft. And yeah, it's a great way to recruit, opposed to going out onto, let's say, Indeed or something. And that can be a little bit more of a...

Picking through 100 people. It's it's it's and I've done both so I'm not like in you know doing those things can work too but I found that my best hiring tactic has been that so. You know I I'm going to get short here on time but I want to. I want to go into a little bit deeper really quick on OK so you.

Allison Endicott (25:54.7)
It can be taxing for sure.

Branden Sewell (26:20.681)
you're bringing in all of this business, you have like a strategy for getting great clients. I'm assuming you have like a good hiring and onboarding process. What does it take to run a business that has 25 trucks and 15 to 20 teams going out? You know, whether that's daily or during the week. And if you can kind of talk about that from like,

maybe cover some of the financial aspect. How do you guys plan for that growth? How do you guys just manage that? It's like I have three crews right now and I'm like, I can't even imagine having 25 trucks. So I don't know if you can speak to that, but I'd love to hear maybe just some insights. Like I'm sure it's not easy. I'm sure there are struggles to it. mean,

What does that look like?

Allison Endicott (27:21.838)
would say that there are both.

And I want to be very careful how I phrase this. It it can be easier, but there are also, you know, bigger struggles. Now, why is it easier? When you're running that many, you have more revenue coming in, which means that you can hire specialists. So for instance, when you are one person with, you know, one to two trucks, you are probably doing things like making the schedule, dispatching in the mornings, doing all of the marketing,

answering phone calls, even if you hire someone, you're the overflow, right? So if the phone rings and nobody answers it, you're gonna answer it. So what you lack in that small scale is the ability to focus and to be great at growth and leadership and moving your team forward.

you get a little more freedom to do things as you get scale because if I send out 20 trucks a day then I'm bringing in the revenue for 20 trucks a day. My cost of goods sold is, you know, going to be 50 % and then I've got the rest of that to cover the overhead of the building. Well, I know my breakeven number. I know when I'm going to be profitable. So all of those, all of that information will help you make the right decisions.

When that top number gets bigger, so long as you control the cost of goods sold and your expenses, then you're just playing the game at a different scale. When we go to make investments and things like that in capital, CapEx, and trucks, buildings, things like that, you're just thinking in a different way.

Allison Endicott (29:13.942)
So I say that to say that you gain a little bit of freedom with scale, but obviously you're playing a more risky game. You have to make payroll. If seasonality happens, if the economy struggles, those problems just become bigger.

One of the things that I use is called a cash management system because cash is king. If you don't project your cash flow, there will be a day where you open up the bank account and you don't have enough to make payroll. So what we have is we have a 12 week forecast based on booked revenue and historical revenue. And then I open that up, I plug in what I'm currently at. I plug in the expenses that I know are coming. I estimate the

unknown expenses quote unquote that are going to be based on revenue or maybe you know incidentals and all of that tells me where my cash balance is going to be at the end of each week. Knowing that I can look forward and I can know exactly how many jobs I need to book in order to stay on track because I know my average job revenue.

I know that I probably shouldn't, but you know, buy a new truck next month because I'm going to be tight on cash at the end of the month because I have this other expense that's coming up. Or I know that, you know, if I can defer something, if I can, you know, put off a credit card payment, if I can use a different credit card for a large expense, I can make those decisions based on that cash forecast.

So the cash management system is absolutely huge from a financial perspective when planning for growth.

Branden Sewell (30:53.225)
Yeah. So let's pause right there. Because I think some people could, you know, maybe they're in a place and I was in this place and I'm starting to like kind of transition my like how I think of this mentally. But

When I was a smaller business, I'll be honest with you, I didn't use credit cards to manage my cashflow. I learned that from a business coach recently. I was like, I'm not gonna use a line of credit. I'm not gonna do any of that stuff. But as I started talking to more successful entrepreneurs, people who...

running businesses that were way bigger than mine. I kept hearing like these constant patterns of stuff that I had looked at in a negative light before. was like, well, if they're having to use like a credit card, are they actually doing well? Or if they have to utilize a credit line, are they actually doing well as a business? If they're having to like manage their cash flow, are they doing well? And then I kept talking to like the like I talked to this one guy on my podcast, he has a

painting company with like 150 employees. And he's like, if you don't have access to capital, you can't grow your company. and I was like, wow, like, I'm, I'm doing something wrong here. And so, but yeah, so the more I talked to these people who are doing, you know, much bigger things than me, that was like a constant thing that was coming up. So I'm just interested if you could shed some light on like how

It's not a negative thing. It's not like you're losing money. It's like, okay, I'm managing the cash flow and I'm managing the cash so that, maybe this week the cash flow is going to be down. We're deferring this payment. that has like a negative connotation when you first hear it. Like, I'm not paying this right now. It's like,

Branden Sewell (33:04.283)
It almost has this connotation of like, don't have the ability to, but it's not a, don't have ability to it's I'm producing this work. These jobs are getting done. And then that money is going to come and then I'm going to pay it. And it's so funny. I was, I watched this real yesterday just to kind of finish up this thought and it showed like, it was like a standard entrepreneurs, bank account. was like,

$100, $10,000, $200, $100,000, $10,000, you know, 500. And so like, can almost, you can see those patterns. And you could say like, okay, that large balance was money came in. And then the lower balance is we just ran payroll, you know, and then it's like, okay, we got all these jobs done. And now it's payroll day again.

Allison Endicott (33:37.87)
Yep.

Branden Sewell (33:57.64)
So I just, if you could, like you're a company, 25 trucks, you're, you know, it sounds like you guys are doing well. Can you just speak to like somebody on, on why you do that, why it's not a negative and why it's important to know how to do it and, and know the reason for it? Does that make sense?

Allison Endicott (34:19.796)
yeah, it does, it does. I think that there's this concept that debt is bad. while one, if you haven't looked into 60 Minutes CFO, I strongly encourage you to. Tracy Beck does a cohort and it's definitely worth it because what she focuses on is numbers and relationships and optimization. So is all debt bad? No.

Because if debt is used to invest in capital that will equal revenue, then you need that debt to grow. Is all revenue good? Like, no. Are all assets good? No. So you need to understand things in relation to each other, not as good, bad. It's not that simple in business. It never is. If you look at a company like Amazon, if you don't think that they have debt, like you are kidding yourself, right? Like they have so much debt. They're just playing in a completely different world.

than the rest of us. So, you touched on line of credit. If you have, if your business is in a good position right now, go get a line of credit. Because one day you'll need one and they won't give it to you at that time.

Branden Sewell (35:20.979)
Yeah.

Allison Endicott (35:35.522)
That's one of the best piece of advice. I will say like, I will be honest and say that we actually hit a point where I wanted to get a line of credit and they would not give it to us. And it's, we're a seasonal business. So we have, you know, a few months of the year where we are significantly slower than the rest of the year. And if I want to keep my people on staff, if I want to get projects done during that time, I need cash to do that. But right now I'm totally dependent on the cash that I can generate at that time.

site as soon as I can get a line of credit I will get one and I will use it sparingly and I will use it with intention and I will pay it off as quickly as I can. That's the same with credit cards is that you can do the math on it and be like alright so if I get this credit card and I use it for these things if I pay it off on time then it doesn't cost me anything. But what I actually get from it on a lot of cards is you might get travel credits, might get cash back, you might get a lot of benefits from it, a lot of protections that you're not going to get from just

paying cash and focusing on cash.

It also gives you that leeway to where I try to, what I try to do is put everything on a card that I can because I'm gonna get a return on it on the card that I'm not gonna get from paying with cash. The only time that I'll pay with cash over a card is when I have, when they charge a fee that it's just not worth paying. So that's how I look at that. I wanna touch on those points. What you touched on with, so moving is COD, it's cash on delivery.

Right? When I do the work, I'm getting paid. I'm sure that some of your projects may last longer. So maybe you have something that lasts 30 days or 60 days. What you have is you have expenses that were incurred 30 days ago. Your people expected to get paid 30 days ago, but you haven't gotten paid by the client. So if you're not leveraging somebody else's money in that situation, then you are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. And you're just kind of constantly playing the

Allison Endicott (37:38.08)
running the rat race? I never use terms like that right? So I would strongly encourage you to look at it especially if you have net terms of like 30, 60, 90. How long does it take you to land a customer and get paid? That whole time you need to make sure that you can cover the cash flow and not be stressed out about it. Credit cards are going to help you out with that because you're going to have terms on the card. Yeah.

Branden Sewell (37:40.104)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (37:59.167)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And you know, that's something that I implemented last year. I had a business coach and he was asking me, he's like, do you have credit cards? I was like, no. He's like, you've been in business for going on eight years and you've never had a credit card. I'm like, no, I've like avoided them, like the plague. And he's like, you're going to solve so many problems. He's like, do you have a vendor that you purchase your paint from? And I said, yes. It's like, do you get a discount from them? I said, yes.

Do they offer financing or you know, like a credit account? I'm like, yes. Do they charge any interest? No. He goes, and he's like, look at it this way. He's like, if you use a credit card, he's like, you can purchase that material on the vendor's credit line. And let's say they'll offer to you like 60 to 90 days, you know,

no interest on that material that you purchase. He's like, and then, so now you just bought yourself, let's say 60 to 90 days of capital. He's like, and then when it's time to pay it off, you use your credit card and you got 2 % cash back. He's like, now you got even more money off of that paint because you're saving another 2 % basically. And

you're extending how long you can, you know, finance that material. So you could, you know, potentially do that to like 60, 90, 120 days of using somebody else's money and freeing up capital in your business and eliminating any type of cashflow issues that you might have. And, and he's like, of course, like you need to be smart about it. And, you know, like, don't go use your credit card to go buy a large screen

Branden Sewell (39:58.312)
or big screen TV for your shop or like a pool table for your guys or something dumb like that. He's like, but if you're using it for expenses that you're paying cash for anyway, he's like, why not just buy yourself like time and help your cashflow by using these strategies? And these were things that nobody had told me about in the time that I had had my business. And I was like, why did I not like if I would have known this, you know, eight years ago, I'd

It would have saved me so much heartache and just pain in seasons when things were tough.

Allison Endicott (40:36.406)
stress and like, I mean, fear, I mean, we started the conversation with growth, right? And growth requires capital. And you can do it two ways. You can do it with debt, or you can do it with, you know, just saving and you know, making smart purchases. You know, I know a $40 million moving company that had no debt whatsoever. And I know a $10 million moving company that's leveraged to the that's completely leveraged.

Branden Sewell (40:42.953)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (40:46.728)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (41:06.184)
Yeah, yeah.

Allison Endicott (41:06.32)
But that's just your tolerance of risk and you know you're gonna trade hard work for capital at some point

Branden Sewell (41:15.731)
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So you had mentioned there's two things I want to cover as we kind of like start to bring this to a close. I want to cover what you're you know how you found yourself in this role as a CEO. So you know we had mentioned just before the show started like you know obviously the founder owners. I'm not sure what they're doing. Maybe you can talk about that. But what does it look like.

for a home service business to be able to hire a CEO and why and what does that look like and how do you bring the value that you do to make their off the ladder or off the truck experience happen? Does that make sense what I'm asking?

Allison Endicott (42:05.814)
I believe it makes sense. So I will start with Eric works founder owner of works moving in storage. Eric.

Branden Sewell (42:14.622)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (42:20.446)
did what a great many people in our industry do. And he started another company. I don't know what y'all's margins are like, but I think in moving, you get a lot of cash flow, but your margins are real thin. So you so when these entrepreneurial minds come in and they see opportunities, they they latch on to them. So what Eric saw was an opportunity to do a marketing service for other movers. And it's called US

home listings, he was able to essentially take that and help get it started. And now it's become one of the premier, you know, marketing sources in our industry where it sends out postcards to homes that are newly listed or under contract. And you can get a lot of good business from that because those folks are your target client who are looking for moves, right? So we talked about how to find them. Those are the ones you're after.

So when Eric started to get more more involved with USA Home Listings, he became a part-time CEO. And if you have a part-time CEO, you have to be very careful because the North Star starts to get fuzzy and where you're going starts to, your people want to see somebody with, they want to know where they're going. I'll just leave it at that. So Eric had come to me and asked if I was

ready for you know to take on the CEO role I was not but you know I was the the best candidate and it was essentially that you know you had to pick somewhere to jump from so that's where I jumped from

I am not a seasoned CEO. am somebody who came up from the company. I don't know that everybody would need a CEO to get out of the day to day. You definitely don't. What you need is you need somebody who's going to run your operations and run your sales. And so if you had two strong players, a sales manager and maybe a director of sales or call them a chief revenue officer and a either chief operations officer or a senior operations manager, if you

Allison Endicott (44:34.436)
have those two people, then you've covered most of what you need to cover for the day to day. And then I strongly recommend finding the right vendors to fill the gaps. Vendors are going to be amazing because they'll help you get to the next level before you have to bring it in house. But you can't do that with a CEO role, right? Like somebody has to set the vision and set the tone and drive forward and be on strategy and keep leaders in moving forward. So I know a moving company owner who, you know, his

He gets like weekly reports from his team. And then he, you know, chimes into a few meetings, but that's the extent of his involvement and he's growing like crazy. So his whole focus is on strategy, not the day to day.

So what do you need to get there is that you need to understand your cash flow, you need to make sure that the people who you bring in are going to have a greater return than they take. So nobody likes to spend money on non-revenue generating roles, but you do need a good ops manager who's going to drive that review machine and drive customer service and satisfaction there.

you need really good data, need a great feedback loop. So Eric and I have monthly meetings where we go over the numbers, he and I have communication constantly, but he's not really in the day to day, I'll just hit on him if I have questions or I need something. But for the most part, you know, this runs without him and it's because the right people are in place, the right systems are in place, he has the information he needs to know that it's running well and you know, we,

we trust that we're working for somebody who's got our best interest and we're willing to work for him. That's huge.

Branden Sewell (46:20.839)
Yeah. So if you can really quick speak on that, what do feel he has done? Cause this is something I think about a lot of times is like, you know, the owner of my company is how do you, my people perceive me? And you know, like I'm, not in the day to day, a lot, you know, like I have a sales rep, all of my lead guys on my cruise,

they're amazing at what they do and they're able to start a job and bring it to completion and make sure that we get paid and everything. we don't have a ton of issues as far as quality or anything like that. My guys understand who we are and how we do it and all of that and they go do it. so all I'm really doing right now is really trying to drive

growth through like our marketing strategies and you know, the some of like the back end administrative stuff and scheduling jobs and any other kind of things. But as far as like being out day to day, there's not a ton of that. And so I guess like the question is, like, okay, well, how how do my people

perceive me and then if I wanted to put somebody in a role like yours, how do they perceive that responsibility when maybe I'm not doing as much? Does that make sense?

Allison Endicott (48:05.608)
It makes sense. cannot speak for other people, but I can say that there is, like the thought does not cross my mind that there was not a time where Eric was, you know, not doing every single job in this company. And, you know, like on top of that, you know, trying to live his own life and get things done. There's a lot of sweat equity that's earned through hard work. And you'll have people there who kind of continue the narrative.

Branden Sewell (48:10.483)
Mm-hmm.

Allison Endicott (48:35.472)
on. think keeping history alive is important. So one of the things that I do is Eric has been very generous with his story and he shared it with me. And so I'm able to share that with more people who come in. And so keeping that alive that like I don't think of it as any other way than you know I get to be of service to somebody who uses these resources like in a in a good way.

Branden Sewell (49:03.496)
Okay.

Allison Endicott (49:04.622)
Now like if you convey that like you're you're money hungry and you're in it for the Lamborghese and you might have a harder time like rallying people who want to serve But you will attract what you put out there and so Eric is somebody who? Leads first with like our core values like do you have your core values and are they communicated to your team?

Branden Sewell (49:10.889)
All right.

Branden Sewell (49:15.72)
Right.

Branden Sewell (49:27.697)
Yes.

Allison Endicott (49:28.61)
beautiful. Ours are extreme ownership, integrity and altruism. So that altruism aspect of it is something where you you you lead, you give without expecting to get back. And Eric lives his life that way. And therefore he attracts people to this business that live their life that way. So you know, it's actually funny because you know, when we hit a rough patch and multiple members of the team were willing to make financial sacrifices for

the greater good of the company. And that comes directly from our core values and those core values come directly from the owner. So by keeping that narrative alive, keeping those values alive, keeping that history alive, I think that you control the way that your people think about you. And you want to always be a good leader. Don't I mean sure like you have the Steve Jobs of the world who can come in and like throw chairs around and yell at people and they'll follow because there's some brilliance there that they saw a spark.

Branden Sewell (50:05.501)
Yeah, that's good.

Allison Endicott (50:28.581)
but you better make sure that you're pretty dang brilliant if you want to do that.

Branden Sewell (50:31.517)
Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I like it, you know, I think about it. I'm like, when I when I make a sacrifice for my guys, my team, oftentimes they don't know it. And sometimes it can feel very like, thankless, like, and you don't I don't do those things because I'm looking for them to like,

give me like a pat on the back. Like I'm gonna do it anyway because that's just like, I feel like that's what I have to do as the owner of this company. you know, I've often wanted to like go to my guys and say to them like, hey, when it's, I actually did have this conversation with one of my guys recently. let's talk about this. Like I was like, payroll is on Friday and

we have to run payroll on Wednesday. And I'm looking at, you know, the cash balance in our bank account. And I'm short the money. Do you want me as the owner to just throw up my hands and be like, well, whatever. Or and like not run payroll or, you know, choose not to take care of my responsibility and just be like, well, guys, you'll figure it out. Like go.

whatever you need to do to pay your bills. Or do you think that I have the responsibility as the owner to say, come hell or high water, I'm going to make payroll on Friday? And so there's been situations where myself as the business owner, I have to make big sacrifices or I'm working my butt off for two days straight, just like, and with anxiousness to make sure that

payroll is made on Friday. And it's like that could be a really long night that could be calling customers like driving sales, like doing whatever I can, you know, going and knocking on doors, putting out door like whatever it takes. I'm like, I have to do whatever it takes to make sure everybody gets paid Friday. And so, you know, I just asked this guy was like, so that's what you would expect from me, right? He's like, yeah, like, I have to get paid. I'm like,

Branden Sewell (52:56.781)
well I just expect you to do your job too. And sometimes you might have to give a little. I don't know, it's an interesting thing to deal with as the owner.

Allison Endicott (53:10.336)
Yeah, mean, because what you've taken on as an owner is that,

you've taken on the burden of trust of a lot of people and you asked about scale and you know how that looks and it looks like more people trusting you to take care of their families and take care of you know what they've agreed to do or the commitments that they've made you're now part of those commitments and yeah no I mean I've deferred my salary before like I've you know waived things that

Branden Sewell (53:21.715)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Allison Endicott (53:48.224)
You know, my compensation structure as a CEO is directly tied to the bottom line. And so when I make decisions that maybe is a capital investment and will lead to more jobs or better jobs, you know, I'm not going to get that return because it's going to come out of the P &L if it's small enough, right? I mean, balance sheet is a whole other conversation. But in those situations, we as leaders agree to sacrifice but, and I don't know how you

look at it, but I look at it in the longer term, right? So yes, it's a sacrifice right now, but if I continue to make these sacrifices and they're the right sacrifices and I'm making the right decisions to go with them, then what it means is that at some point down the road, there will be a certain degree of freedom, whether it's financial freedom or like we've talked about, like freedom to not be on the on the ladder, freedom to take vacation when you want to take vacation and not have to worry that the business is

is going to shut down, sales aren't going to happen, growth isn't going to happen. You're making these sacrifices now so that that can happen later. And yeah, it's thankless. And it would be disingenuous to walk around being like, well, I just sacrificed all my paycheck for this week because everybody's going to be like, I don't care, right? Like, what's in it for me? But yeah, that's it's tough.

Branden Sewell (55:09.347)
Yeah

Branden Sewell (55:14.025)
It's a hard culture, I really like, remember I followed Dave Ramsey. I've listened to him and I've listened to Entrez leadership and stuff like that. But he talks about how like during 2020, like he had, you know, team members who were willing to not take pay to make sure that they could continue. And cause it was like this bigger understanding of vision of like, this business is bigger than, than me. And

In order for to guarantee the success of it long term like hey, this is just a season but long term. Do you want to come back and have a job? Well, can you give a little now to make sure that in the long run you still have a job and so I think that sometimes it's just perspective one. You know those things it's and it's tough, I like that you have this perspective of the the.

you're not the owner founder, but it sounds like you are dedicated to the vision, the mission, and the success of the company. And I just, love that. And I appreciate it so much from like my position of being like an owner founder and like saying like, man, like how do I find people who are going to understand the vision and the mission of our company so much and trust me.

as a leader that they're willing to like make their sacrifices. so I just I mean, that's that's amazing. So I appreciate you sharing that. Really quick, I'm going to shift gears really hard, hard right turn. But I want to bring this to close. And I want to talk about this really quick before we close out is a live switch, because that's how we initially got connected. James spoke very highly of you. He was like you.

have to talk to Allison and talk to her about how she's using Live Switch for a moving company. So I'm just curious. I had an electrician on. He talked about how he was using it to do assessments or estimates for the electrician work that they were doing. And I'm curious, how do you guys use it in your industry and how has it helped you guys?

Branden Sewell (57:38.087)
served your business.

Allison Endicott (57:40.312)
Absolutely. So the way that we use Live Switch is for when you move, you need to get an inventory of the items that are going to be moved.

Now, you can do that one of three ways. You can have a phone call where you go, what are you going to move? And they give you a list of items. And what you're doing is you're trusting the customer who is not a mover, probably does not move regularly, and sees their items every single day and forgets that like the Chinese cabinet is in the dining room, right? So the phone survey is the least reliable that you can do. The most reliable that you can do is an on-site survey. But of course, then you're limited by service area. You're limited

by how many outside sales reps that you have. limited by, you know, if they're coming, we do interstate moves. Let's say they're coming from Tennessee to come to Georgia. I'm not going to send somebody to Tennessee. So for a long time, those were our two options, phone and on site. COVID comes and we start doing FaceTime surveys.

Branden Sewell (58:40.393)
Mm.

Allison Endicott (58:40.428)
Well, what's the problem with FaceTime? Number one, if you don't have an iPhone, you're out of luck. Number two, if you saw something in it and the customer said one thing and the sales rep says another, you have no record of it. Like it is lost to FaceTime. So what we did was we started looking for some solutions. We came across one that was one that you had to download an app to do. And anytime that you ask somebody to download an app, there's kind of an eye roll and now you're

Branden Sewell (58:55.869)
Yeah.

Allison Endicott (59:10.422)
you know the customers like I work for you now I gotta put this thing on my phone like there's friction. So we started looking for another solution we come across Live Switch. Live Switch is a great solution they introduced it to us we started using it so what we do is we are able to send a link to the customer the customer clicks the link and they're on. There's no app download needed there's no friction there they're willing to they're much more willing to engage in a virtual survey with us which means we get better information.

Branden Sewell (59:14.587)
Mm, yeah.

Allison Endicott (59:39.872)
Now, while an onsite is great because you can measure all the furniture and really like pick things up and something that looks light may be heavy, on a virtual you get nearly as good because you can see the items and it's recorded.

Branden Sewell (59:40.083)
Right.

Allison Endicott (59:53.708)
You can take like image snapshots of things so that you can put it in there and prep the guys that like, this piece is super special. It may look like junk, but it's actually the shipper's grandma's old dresser and she's had it since she was a baby. So you can do these things that help communication flow more seamlessly from the client to the salesperson to the sales manager to the ops manager to the crew and it creates a much more seamless experience.

Branden Sewell (01:00:23.261)
Awesome. Yeah, that's good. I think it's such a smart move for people to, even if you don't use it like 100 % of the time, I think it's a good tool to have because we live in a time where I think the marketplace is demanding more of that like quick call to service and like getting answers quick and being face to face quick.

and they want their problem solved like now. And so I know that James Hatfield, calls it race to face. But I think that it's so powerful and just to have it as an option for you to use. And there's so many different scenarios for every different industry of how it can be useful. And so like the way that we're using it is we're offering it as an option.

or you can do both and like do virtual and in person or you can choose to just do virtual. But we're we're also going to use it mostly I would say for like finding out if like is this project really worth our time? You know, because for us with being in the painting industry, some people are like, hey, can you come out and.

You know, look at this and it turns out that it's not even something that we do or for whatever reason, it's something that we can't take care of. And so we want to eliminate like those wasted drives or, know, we could have just told you through this virtual assessment, like, hey, that's we can't handle that project, but maybe we can redirect them and send them to somebody else or, you know.

this needs to be done on the house before it can even be painted. You need to do this and then call us. Your siding is falling off. There's no point in us, you know, painting until you get that repaired or your stucco is falling off the side of your house. Like let's hold off on painting. So anyway, it's just, you know, I think there's a great use for it in so many different industries. So I'm glad that you...

Allison Endicott (01:02:35.982)
Are you all using the like pre-record function that they, I think they rolled it out last year where you can put like a link on your website and somebody can submit a video prior to talking to somebody?

Branden Sewell (01:02:44.222)
Yeah.

Yep, yeah, so we put that on our website so that if somebody wants to just, you know, they strictly just want that virtual experience where they can go on, submit that, submit the pre-recording and send it in and then we'll send them an estimate. But then we also have a separate, you know, option which is they can go through and they say like, hey, we want to have somebody come out, but we also want to do the virtual assessment.

just to kind of have like meet you, get an idea of what the project's gonna cost. And then if we feel like we need to have somebody come out, we can have somebody come out. But a lot of people don't realize this, but I really, honestly, we could bid probably almost 100 % of our jobs virtually. It's just customers, I guess they have this assumption that because it's painting,

that we are going to measure everything. But that's not even how we bid our jobs. We bid our jobs on time and material. So it's like when I come to your house, I'm just looking to get a feel for how much time and how much material I'm going to need to get your job done. And I've been in business for eight years. I've been, I don't even know, probably thousands of jobs. And the other thing that is pretty common here in Florida, and I'm sure other places too, but

I tell people like, I painted your house last week, it was just down the street and it was flipped this way. You know, it's like, you have a DR Horton home that is this model, it's this many square feet, it has this many bedrooms, and the only difference is that your garage is on this side and that person's was on this side. And so anyway, I tell people that all the time too. I'm like, I've bid your house hundreds of times.

Branden Sewell (01:04:45.373)
Like I don't have to measure it. I know how much material it's going to take and how much time like unless it's like, you know, the jobs that I like going to to see in person is like if it's a custom home and it's really intricate and it's very detailed and it's like it's not the norm. It's like, okay, I probably need to put eyes on this because there's going to be some kind of like interesting like crazy dynamic to doing the job that I need to see but in person but

Like I live in a D.R. Horton neighborhood. So it's like my house is in this neighborhood like 20 times.

Allison Endicott (01:05:22.328)
So do you track your closing percentage? Is that something that you know? Do you find that you close better in person?

Branden Sewell (01:05:26.225)
Yes, yeah, we do.

Branden Sewell (01:05:30.233)
No, there's not really any. I would actually say it's it's you know, I don't know if it's because of the type of clientele that I get that end up doing virtual, but I would say we probably close more virtual than we do in person. And I like I said, I don't know if that's just strictly because of the clientele. Usually those are what I found is their referrals.

and they need the job done in like a very specific time frame and maybe there's some kind of interesting scenario where they don't have time for me to go and see it in person. And so I'm just like, hey, yeah, no problem. Like, let's jump on a call. Let me see the project. I'll send you a report now. And it's like, I think they're, yeah, I don't know. I just seem to land those like instantly. There's like one person that I get, I get referrals from all the time.

Allison Endicott (01:06:20.27)
That's awesome though.

Branden Sewell (01:06:23.933)
She's actually a flooring company. And so she deals a lot with like people who are just buying homes and having flooring done and they need it painted afterwards. And she'll send me the referrals. And it seems like a lot of times those are like people who have project deadlines. They're trying to move in. They need the painting done quick or they're moving from out of state or from another area.

and they can't meet me at the house or so I even bid jobs off of Zillow all the time. Like, like send me a Zillow link and I'll just bid the job, you know.

Allison Endicott (01:06:54.71)
Yeah, Zillow's great for that.

Well, these days, I think you can do a 360 on some of those sites. So you're not sacrificing closing percentage. You're saving yourself time. You're saving yourself gas. Like, it makes so much sense. Do people, like, force you into it where they're like, well, I'm not going to go with you unless you come out here and do an onsite with me?

Branden Sewell (01:07:02.3)
Yeah, yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:07:18.249)
I'll get push back from there's nobody that says that definitively, but there are some people who will give push back on the like, well, how are you going to measure? And then I have to go into an explanation of like what I just told you, like, hey, we actually don't measure. do time and material bidding. Because what I found and I there's people that don't agree with me in the painting industry on this, but I'm just of the opinion that

measuring is not the best way to go about bidding a painting job because there's so many factors like I could I could measure like let's say this room that I'm sitting in and let's say I bid it at like two dollars or two dollars and fifty cents per square foot well this room if it's all white and I'm painting it

another shade of off-white, it's going to be really easy to do. It's not going to take a lot of time. If this room was black and I was painting it white, well, I could bid it at that $2 or $2.50 per square foot, but in reality, I need to be at like $4.50 because this room is going to be a pain to paint from black to white. It's going to have to be primed and then it's going to probably need two to three coats to cover that black.

You know, so there's just factors that go into that that I'm just like, you know, it it's easier for me to just look at that room and know like, hey, this is about how much it would cost for us to do that room. But since it's black and it's going white, I'm to charge an extra 250 bucks, you know. So anyway, that's just the way that we handle things. But yeah. Yeah.

Allison Endicott (01:09:04.046)
Interesting.

Branden Sewell (01:09:05.705)
Well, anyway, I'm gonna bring this to a close. I really appreciate your time. I think it would be really cool to do a follow-up episode at some point and get you back on here and maybe dig into some of these topics more because there's only so much that you can get into in an hour. And there are so many things I would have loved to dive more into. I'm just trying to cover a good broad spectrum of topics. But I'd love to have you on here again. I'm very appreciative for your time.

being on here today.

Allison Endicott (01:09:36.3)
Yeah, I would be interested in following up on some stuff. There's definitely some tips that I could throw out there for folks who are, you know, genuinely trying to like make that first hire that, you know, I'll leave a little teaser there for our follow up one. But, yeah, no, I'd be open to that. It was enjoyable.

Branden Sewell (01:09:47.165)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:09:51.407)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe we can do a... I'll reach out to you and get some things that maybe in a follow-up interview we could talk about some follow-up topics and dig a little deeper into some stuff, but that would... think that you have a lot of value to add and I think that the listeners would get a lot from what you have to share, so I'd really appreciate that. But anyway, I'm gonna bring this to close, so thank you everyone for listening. If you're watching this on YouTube, please like this video.

comment, share your feedback, subscribe to the channel so that you can get all the future episodes and content that will come out. And then also, if you're listening on any major podcast platform, please rate and review the show so that we can get that in front of more people, reach more people, and continue to help people get off the ladder. And if you need any resources for your home service business,

I have some resources down below. I do have some affiliates and brand partners. So if you use any of my links or anything like that, I do get credit for it and I do appreciate it. So if you're thinking about using any of the systems and processes that I utilize to run my business, please make sure you use my link. And thank you again so much for tuning into the Off the Ladder podcast and we'll see you next time on the next episode.