Jason Phillips Master Class On Self, Others, and Systems

Summary

In this episode of the Off the Ladder Podcast, host Branden Sewell and guest Jason Phillips discuss the journey of becoming a successful contractor without being hands-on in the field. They explore the importance of personal growth, the SOS framework for business success, and the significance of building trust with clients. The conversation emphasizes the need for effective sales skills, creating a positive customer experience, and the value of hiring for character. They also touch on the importance of emotional intelligence in leadership and the necessity of setting clear expectations for team members.

Takeaways

Branden Sewell introduces the Off the Ladder podcast and its purpose.
Jason Phillips shares his background in the home improvement industry.
Both hosts discuss their non-traditional paths to business ownership.
The SOS framework consists of Self, Others, and Systems for business success.
Investing in personal growth is crucial for business leaders.
Sales skills are essential for contractors to succeed.
Building trust with clients is key to long-term success.
Creating a positive customer experience can differentiate a business.
Taking extreme ownership of mistakes can enhance client relationships.
Hiring for character over skills leads to a more cohesive team.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Off the Ladder Podcast
06:15 The SOS Framework for Success
13:47 The Importance of Sales Skills
22:18 Creating a Positive Customer Experience
31:27 Delegating and Trusting Your Team
38:00 Hiring for Character Over Skills
47:08 The Importance of Year-Round Recruiting
53:21 Navigating Leadership Challenges
01:01:12 Setting Standards and Expectations
01:10:32 The Impact of Faith on Leadership
01:16:36 Final Thoughts on Business Success

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Transcript

Branden Sewell (00:01.715)
Hi everybody, I'm Branden Sewell. I'm the owner of Seal Pro Painting located in central Florida. I'm also the host of the Off the Ladder podcast and we exist to help home service business owners learn so that they can lead well and ultimately live life off of the ladder. I'm excited about today's guest. I've got Jason Phillips with me. Welcome to the show.

Jason Phillips (00:23.192)
Brandon, thanks for having me today. I'm excited to be here.

Branden Sewell (00:25.927)
Yeah, absolutely. Really quick, Jason, just for those who are listening, who may not know you, if you could just give a brief introduction to who you are, where you're located, your business services you offer, and things like that.

Jason Phillips (00:40.909)
Absolutely. I'm in the Dallas, Texas area and my company is Phillips Home Improvements. I started that, gosh, 20, 27 years ago. Today, I'm not really involved at all in the day-to-day operations and I spend most of my time helping contractors as well.

Branden Sewell (00:59.549)
That's awesome, good stuff. So, you know, as we discussed the whole purpose of this podcast, it sounds like, you know, just in our conversation briefly before the show, you and I have a similar story in that, you know, we haven't really been in the field and I got my start in the painting industry through sales and marketing, working for another painting company and I just kind of took what I knew and jumped in and started my painting company.

and but I've never been the one you know necessarily in the field doing the work and I mean sure there's been like the occasional times where I've gone out and worked with the crews or done a job myself but I've never been the one out there doing the work so you know I'd like to jump in today and to like just some of the principles that you know make that possible you know it's funny so many people think that it's

It's so hard or unachievable and I remember I'll never forget I told this one guy one time I said if you wanted to be off the ladder You could do it today it's really just deciding whether you want to or not and then just taking some of the necessary steps to do so but You know, it was so funny because quickly after that he was like he was like I don't know what it was that just hit me and he was like and then I just made it happen so

So anyway, what was it like for you when you started your business and you know what was kind of your story of how you weren't necessarily out there doing the work? How was that possible?

Jason Phillips (02:36.375)
Yeah, you know, I have a similar story as a lot of guys. I myself was not a craftsman and I came in with a sales and marketing mindset. Started my company by knocking on doors and sold some jobs and used my first deposits to launch the business basically. And so from that point I was doing the sales, I was doing the project management, I was building a CRM and a database, working on marketing.

and doing everything except the actual work, at that time was just painting work. And we had early success. before you know it, I was really busy and ended up getting tied up in what I call contractor prison. Even though wasn't on the latter, I was still got to a point where there was money in the bank, but there was no time left on the clock. I was bankrupt on time because

I was giving everything that I had to the company.

Branden Sewell (03:37.573)
Yeah, that's good. You know, I think like no matter where you're at in business, I think there can be, you know, these bottlenecks or challenges. And I think for everybody, that looks different. One of the things that I try to be clear about too on my show is like how I was able to achieve that and how you were able to achieve it might have looked a little bit different, right? And

maybe what your priorities are as an individual and your family and your background are different than somebody else's. you know, have to take all of those things into consideration. But as long as you look at your life in a holistic way. So I know we had talked about this a few days ago. You know, just I can't remember what you said the model was, but it's essentially just having some foundational things right first.

And then that helps kind of set the tone for how, you know, your business works, you know? So like, I remember for me, one of the reasons why I was able to be off the ladder in the beginning is because I had minimal debt. had a lot of money saved up at a young age. I was like 23, I think, when I started my business. And, you know, I had, I didn't have a lot of debt. I, my wife and I were newly married and we had saved up a bunch of money.

And so I had some flexibility to where I wasn't relying on, you know, income to get my business off the ground. So I was able to just dive straight in and put a lot of effort into it in the beginning. But, you know, I know that's not everybody else's story. And so, you know, some people aren't coming into a business where they, you know, are debt free and

have a bunch of savings and have flexibility. That was just my story. But I think that the way that you can get there is looking at your foundations. And I usually tell people like, you know, if you want to get off the ladder, eliminate debt. If you want to get off the ladder, try to make sure that you don't have to worry about other things that are going to place a lot of demand on you. If you want to get off the ladder, make sure your marriage is ready for it.

Branden Sewell (05:54.477)
That's another thing that I talk about a lot because the demands are going to put stress on you. So anyway, I'm just curious if you could share with the listeners a little bit about the system or whatnot that you teach contractors because I think that's a good place to start.

Jason Phillips (06:15.134)
Well, through a lot of pain and tears and heartache, I developed over the years the SOS framework. And the first S stands for self. It means starting with yourself. If you want your company to be better, if you want your life to be better, you've got to start with the only person that you can change, which is really yourself. And so that's about personal growth. It's about becoming a student of business, leadership, people skills.

Branden Sewell (06:24.956)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (06:45.53)
then the O in SOS is for others or building a team. Because if you really want to get off the ladder and get freedom, you've got to build a team of people that are really, I'm going to say, well aligned with the work that they do. And when they're really, they tend to lose track of time. They're like, hey, one more of these before I go home. They're not clock watchers.

and they become very engaged and very productive. They champion the company vision. And again, before you can earn that type of team, you've got to be a leader worthy of attracting and retaining that type of talent. the O is we have start with self, then O is for others. And the second S is for systems. And that's about systemizing your business.

most people start their business like I did with all their systems right here in their head. And then when you start building a team of people, you need to somehow to transfer that knowledge. initially, let's say we're just transferring it verbally, right? Tribal knowledge, if you will, or whatever. But then that works fine when you're dealing one-on-one. But then when your team starts growing, you get spread too thin, and you need to have documented systems and checklists and ways of doing things.

so that you don't get what's called generational loss in the training. so realistically, simple, repeatable, I call them ABLE systems because they're trainable, measurable, repeatable. those systems help ordinary people attain extraordinary results in your company. So that's it, self, others, and systems, SOS.

Branden Sewell (08:36.454)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's amazing. mean, it, I think I love that, you know, acronym there. And I like how simple it is because it really gets to the core of how you get off of the ladder. mean, exactly what you said, personal growth. Like, one of the things that I've realized with being off the ladder is I have to invest time in myself. I have to

Read books I have to or right now I listen to them. I used to read more but I listen to audible I you know get on podcasts. I've had a coach you know really I started coaching or like I've always had a coach since like 2019. So after a couple of years in my business and I've gone through you know different coaches in different stages of my business for different things.

You know, I first started out, I'm sure you've probably heard of it, but Entree Leadership. So I was a part of Dave Ramsey's Entree Leadership. So I did coaching with them and a mastermind. And then I felt like I kind of graduated from that and I went to a trade specific coach, which was a game changer for me. And then I went from that to more of like an executive coach.

And I've had more like specialized coaches as well that I've hired along the way for different things, whether it's been like, you know, deep dive into my numbers or marketing or social media, you know, all those different things. But really making that investment into myself, I feel like is is what gives me that edge to be able to do what I do. And and I'm

constantly growing like where my business is today eight years in versus where I was even you know three years ago is like night and day and Even like when I first started out I was a full subcontractor model like I just subbed everything out. So and then I went to like kind of like a Hybrid model where I did subs and employees and then you know since 2022 I've been

Branden Sewell (10:54.716)
pretty much nothing but employees. But, you know, my business has grown over time, but it's like making that investment that has equipped me. And I think if you want to get off the ladder, you have to make that decision that you're going to invest in yourself.

Jason Phillips (11:11.336)
100%, you know, to, we hear this term, you know, you've gotta start working on your business instead of working in your business. Well, in order to start working on your business, you need to gain some margin of time in your life so that you can begin to work on your business. But then there's a layer even deeper than that is you've gotta know how to work on your business. You've either gotta have the money to hire the expert,

Branden Sewell (11:38.002)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (11:40.41)
or you've got to learn and educate yourself. Those are really your only two options. And so the first thing is you're doing things like would you hire a coach, join a program so that you can learn new skills and begin doing a better job working on your business. But how do you get that initial margin? If you're so busy trying to keep up with producing the jobs, selling the jobs, running the leads, paying the payroll, collecting.

Branden Sewell (11:43.142)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (12:07.762)
Projects all of all of that. It's just it's overwhelming and and realistically the place to start is to delegate something to someone and Once you delegate you may not be good at it at first Okay, but it but it might be good enough and you you get some margin some elbow room in your schedule You can start working on other things then you can become you know work on work on Your vision for the company work on owning and knowing your numbers becoming better at marketing becoming a better leader

Branden Sewell (12:18.023)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (12:37.317)
and putting in systems. And I believe, and I teach that the greatest leverage point in the home improvement business, at least, is the sales process. this is one of the things that keeps so many contractors trapped in contractor prison, is they don't believe in the value that they're worth. So they sell cheap. They sell by the winging it system.

because they haven't had any formal sales training. So they're selling at low prices. They're operating at super slim gross profit margins, maybe 40 % plus or minus a few. you're just not gonna, the chances of you getting out of that prison and getting off the ladder and really gaining freedom are really small if you're gonna operate in that 40 % gross profit margin. knowing how to sell the value of what you produce,

Most people have a, most contractors I meet, their craftsmanship is a level nine out of 10 and their sales skills are level two out of 10. And there's so much to be gained when you can raise your price. Then you've got money to hire coaches, hire employees, put in better systems. And then that's what gets the ball, that gets the ball going. It all starts with learning how to sell for what you're really worth.

Branden Sewell (13:47.815)
bright.

Branden Sewell (14:06.61)
Yeah, that's so good. You know, I want to dive into this too. think, you you mentioned, you know, I said my situation early on in my business was much different than some, you know, there's going to be some guys or ladies who listen to this and they're like, oh, well, you know, I've got a lot of debt. I have to make X amount of money, you know, per week or.

per month in order to make sure all my responsibilities are covered. How am I going to, you know, afford to hire somebody and where's that money going to come from? And so that's why I mentioned the two things that I did. You know, you've got what I'll usually tell people is, you know, get your work on yourself. Like if you can reduce your responsibilities, like, you know, if you've got a bunch of bills that you have

and a bunch of debt, that's, you're going to require more out of your business, right? So that's going to make it harder for you to like feel like you can say, okay, I can hire this guy at 30, 40, $50,000 and delegate something, right? Whereas if you can get disciplined, eliminate some debt, and then you're not relying on so much of

so much from your business then you can you feel a little bit more breathing room to say okay well maybe i can reduce what i'm taking and i can give some of that away and then grow and then add that back in or the other answer is what you said is like you've got to raise your prices you know so like if you wanna hire somebody will you you can't price your jobs where they're currently at you gotta.

raise them up and then you got to also look at it as like okay bye. You got to work on your mindset that's another thing that I talked to people about on the podcast to you got to change your mindset and how you view that like if you look at it is like I'm ripping off somebody because I'm raising my prices will then you have the wrong mindset it's no I'm I'm offering more value which justifies my price you know so I'm.

Branden Sewell (16:18.724)
I'm going to by adding this person, my communication is going to get better. My organization, my systems, my service and the value that I bring to my customers is going to get better and improve. And that justifies raising my prices because I'm bringing more value. So I've heard many people say the only time that price is a problem is in the absence of value.

So if you bring value, then that justifies that price. It's like, you know, I talked to people about how necessary having a CRM is for your business so that you're organized and efficient. they're, and you know, they'll talk about all the price. I don't know if I can afford it. And it's like, well, no, just raise your price. You know, you're going to add this CRM in, which is going to add more value to your customers and your team. So.

raise your price, you're bringing more value to the table. So don't look at it as like, it's this huge expense that I have to try and figure out to like, where we're at right now. It's like, well, no charge for it. So I don't know if you have anything to add to that, but.

Jason Phillips (17:29.925)
Yeah, well, you know, that's that's that's that's true. And, know, just some additional things that I might add to that is, you know, adding value wasn't just about say, hey, we're going to give them a better primer or a better top coat or an additional coat of paint or whatever. Because at the end of the day, the stress that homeowners, you know, endure or most of our clients, especially if they're homeowners, is not about the peeling paint. OK, it's about

Who can I trust for this? Who do I need to call to get this done? Homeowners live busy lives. Soccer moms, two income families, whatever it is. Most people live busy lives and they don't want to waste their money. They don't know who to call. And it's really not about the actual product. It's about what are we solving for them? We are in the trust business. We are in the peace of mind business.

Branden Sewell (18:07.602)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (18:22.748)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (18:29.366)
It's not about the price and the quality for most people. It just needs to be good enough. They need someone that they can call, they can trust in their home, who's going to show up on time, who's going to communicate well, and where they have confidence that they're going to spend their money and they're not going to have to go redo it or chase the contractor down because it's similar to all the horror stories that they've heard in the news and on social media.

Branden Sewell (18:58.928)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (18:59.137)
So when we become the trusted name, when our brand, when people think about your company name, what do you want them to think about? I'll tell you what I want them to think about when they think of our company name, I want them to think about trust. Hey, when I'm ready for my paint, my roof, whatever, that's who I'm calling and I'm not even shopping around. And those people will pay a lot more money.

Branden Sewell (19:10.544)
Right.

Branden Sewell (19:14.694)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (19:20.838)
Yeah.

Oh yeah, for sure. mean, what our experience has been and even as time has gone on and we've grown and you know, like I tell my guys all the time, my main focus is really our customer experience. You know, so you can teach a lot of people how to paint. You can teach people, you know, the different skills and all of those things.

What I'm more focused on is character of my people and them understanding our values and our mission as a company because you had just said something where you said, you know, it's not about the peeling paint. To me, I say the same thing and I kind of I make the comparison with Chick-fil-A. Everybody knows Chick-fil-A, loves Chick-fil-A. You've probably heard this on business podcasts or other people talk about it, but

You know, it's like comparing Chick-fil-A to McDonald's. There's not really much of a difference between the chicken sandwich. A chicken sandwich is a chicken sandwich. You know, it's a bun and it's chicken and, you know, their recipes might be a little bit different. But what really makes Chick-fil-A different than McDonald's? It's the customer experience. It's the...

you know our pleasure it's the going the extra mile it's it's the just how pleasant the employees are when you're going there and so that experience is what affects you you know your psychology you know you're like wow this is so amazing and because my experience was so great this sandwich is that much better you know and so i tell my guys it's like i want to focus on the customer experience i want

Branden Sewell (21:15.475)
for us to do everything that we can for our customers to be 100 % satisfied with our company. And if there's moments where maybe our customers feel like we've lost their trust, we're gonna own it and we're gonna do everything we can to get that trust back. Because it's so important. I feel like so many people too lose sight of what matters most and

You know, it's like you can in the marketing world, it's like it's opportunity cost. It's like by doing this, what is the opportunity costs? And sometimes you might be focusing on this $300, but it's costing you in the long run because you're you're sacrificing the customer experience fighting over a little bit of profit or something. And so we're our team is always going to put the people first, the customer experience first. And and that

is that's huge with creating that trust that you're talking about.

Jason Phillips (22:18.178)
You know, everybody knows this quote as well from Maya Angelou, people will forget what you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget the way you made them feel. And we are in the people business. It's people that serve our clients and our clients are people. Our clients aren't the homes that we work on. Our clients are the people in those homes. And so many contractors gauge their...

Branden Sewell (22:33.757)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (22:48.226)
their customer happiness by, well, they paid and we don't have any complaints or social media bombs, if you will. And in reality, one of the reasons I'm a huge fan of tracking that promoter score, because when a customer rates you, if they give you a nine or a 10, the question is, how comfortable would you feel referring this company to a friend or family member? They give you a nine or a 10.

you're considered a promoter. If they give you a seven, sorry, a six or below, you're considered a detractor. But the sevens and eights are called passives. And what happens is, is when you thrill people, the promoters, the nines and tens, they're gonna come back, they're gonna forgive you when you do something wrong, they just love you, you've taken such good care of them and they trust you.

Branden Sewell (23:17.683)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (23:43.905)
Okay, the people that rate you six and below, they're gonna tell a story too to everybody and it's gonna be negative. But those sevens and eights, next time they need something, they may call you, they may not, they're probably gonna be a price shopper, but they're not tied to you. And those passives, they're silent. They don't compliment and they don't complain. They just silently leave your business and go somewhere else.

Branden Sewell (24:08.849)
Right. Yeah, I so it's funny you brought that up. I used to do that a lot more in my business. used have a forum where we had our customers sign off and it gave them the option to rate the company one through 10. So I do like that. I don't do that as much anymore. But but I do like the value that it brings and helps you to understand how you're doing, you know, in serving your clients. And I wanted to share this example of

you know, just where there's opportunity to go above and beyond and how like not making it always about like a little bit of money. So we just had an exterior project that we did and we had finished it up and or we are almost finished it up. And I went to go just check in on the job. I met with the customer and she's she brought me to the front of her house and she showed me this stucco banding on the front of her house. And she said, yeah, you know, you're guys.

tried to repair this, there were some really big bolts that were taken out that were really big and left these big holes and they tried to fill it, but it just, it looks weird. She's like, I get it. It's not their fault. They did the best they can. and I stopped her and I just said, Hey, look, I'm not happy with how that looks. I was like, so I'm going to talk to my guys, see what we could do to fix that and make it look better. and if I'm going to come back when the job's done and if I'm still not happy with it, I'm going to pay to have it fixed right.

and have a stucco contractor come out here and redo that banding there so that it looks seamless. So we got the job done, I went out there the day it was finished, I looked at the stucco and it still just, I wasn't happy with how it looked. And instead of, like the customer was very like, you know, I don't necessarily like it, but it's okay, you guys did a great job, we're really happy.

But even in the midst of that, said, no, well, you know what? I'm not happy with it. I'm have my stucco guy over here. I'll get him to fix it, and we'll take care of this for you. And so I did. I had my stucco guy come up. He charged me like $150 to fix it. We ended up taking care of it, made it look amazing. And they're absolutely raving about our service.

Branden Sewell (26:28.644)
And so I just, you know, when it comes to those opportunities, it's like, I love the book Extreme Ownership because I feel like it teaches a principle where in a moment where you could shift blame or maybe avoid taking ownership, it teaches this principle of taking extreme ownership. It's like, I'm not going to blame, you know, the fact that there was giant bolts there, you know, and try to say that's not our fault. It affects the way that our

painting project looks, it's not a huge expense for me to take care of this. I want to take care of it. And so I don't know, I just feel like, you know, guys can get held up by like little stuff like that. And it's like, just go the extra mile and it'll pay off dividends for your business.

Jason Phillips (27:15.872)
know, 100%. A guy named Peter Drucker said that business exists, the purpose of business is to create and keep a customer. And the way we do that is by solving problems in a way that creates value for them. And if so many people burn a client over something like that, and that client has more projects that they're gonna do in the future,

Branden Sewell (27:28.518)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (27:45.651)
and they have friends and neighbors and family members. And if you leave them with a bad taste in their mouth, they're not gonna feel so great about coming back and bringing other people with them. They may pay the bill on that project. There's a difference between satisfied and wowed. And I don't want my clients to be satisfied. I want them to be wowed. And so I want them to say, hey look, they...

Branden Sewell (28:04.658)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (28:16.169)
they literally, there's been times, I've been in business for a long time and we've made a lot of mistakes where we've really messed up. don't know, get paint on carpet or on the roof or whatever, just a bad mistake. The way we handle that when we make a mistake is one of the reasons that some of these people say they're clients for life. Not because we were perfect, but because they saw the integrity when we, the way we solved a problem.

Branden Sewell (28:24.7)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (28:44.594)
Yeah, it's so good. I heard somebody recently say, you know, it's not about whether you have problems, it's about how you solve them. That makes a difference for your business. I think this might have been late last year. You you mentioned spilling paint on a carpet. We were working on this multi-million dollar home in Winter Park, Florida, and one of my guys was carrying a quart of black paint, and he tripped on the edge of like a rug.

And he when he tripped, he spilled black paint all over this huge area rug. And so we like instantly like jumped into like getting a cleaner to come out and see if they could extract the paint. it looked better, but you could still see that the black paint had made the it just looked dingy, you know, and disc and discolored. And so I had to do the.

souls, you know, I did dig down and I caught him and I said, how much does that rug cost? And it was like a $4,000 area rugs like designer area rug. And I and to be honest with you, I was like, I didn't even know that $4,000 designer area rugs exist. I was like, holy smokes. And so I had to pay to replace that area rug. And

And so I thought that was like the end of that relationship with that customer. And to my surprise, they ended up calling us back and had us come back and do additional work in like a second phase in their home. And so, you know, to your point, it's like if I would have tried to in some way say like, no, we hired the company, they cleaned it.

you know, it's fine and tried to justify it somehow that might've made the difference in us getting that return business. But, you know, I owned it and paid for the rug to be replaced. And because of how we handled that, we got more work from it. And so, yeah, that's, I, you know, I want to kind of bring this full circle back to the next point of like others, but, I think just that ability to take extreme ownership is just.

Branden Sewell (30:58.098)
a key foundation for getting off the ladder and even being able to do the things that we're talking about, like investing in yourself and being able to hire people. You have to own it. So going back to bringing people into the business, being others-focused, I think that people who are out in the field, they're doing the work, they might be like, where do I start?

You know, how do I get started? What? You know, here I am. I feel like I'm drowning. I don't have enough time. I'm people are telling me I need to work on my business instead of in it, but I just can't figure out how to make it happen. What kind of things would you recommend to people who are in that position? Like, what are some of the next steps? What's the first thing? The first action?

step that you would recommend for people who are trying to just get their time back, get some breathing room and do the things that we're talking about.

Jason Phillips (32:04.605)
Well, here's a couple of places that you can start. One, you can give up something. You can give up some of your time with maybe it's some of your leisure activities, social activities, or hobbies temporarily to put in that extra work to make things better at your company. That's one option. Didn't say it's a fun option. If this was easy, everybody would do it. It's simple.

Branden Sewell (32:30.15)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (32:33.585)
but it's not easy. And the other one is also giving up something, giving up control. There's a good chance that many of you watching, listening here already have someone on your team that would love the opportunity to take on a little more responsibility and show you what they've got.

Branden Sewell (32:59.738)
Mm-hmm. That's

Yeah, I, you know, it's funny, you know, I hear all the time from contractors, like, if I don't do it, it's not going to get done. Or if I don't do it, it's not going to get done right. I can't trust them to do this. And I think that's so far from the truth, because I've experienced it firsthand where if I just if I trust people, I had this leader in my life, a pastor, actually, who would

who would tell me and tell others that he was leading, I'm going to trust you. That's a given. You're going to have to earn my distrust. so it was this principle that like, you don't have to, I'm going to delegate to you. I'm going to delegate authority to you to run this, do this, be a leader in this area. And you've got my trust.

Now, the only way that that's going to change is if you do something to earn my distrust. And so I just love that because it gets you to where you want to go faster as a leader. You have to trust people and you have to get over this fear of thinking that others can't do what you do because I think that's so far from the truth. And, you know, I just want to add to what you're saying. I think that, you know, one of the

things that happened for me in 2022. I 13 employees. We were on pace to grow 50 % over the previous year and had 13 employees. Middle of the year around May or June, things went downhill. I lost everybody. I went from 13 down to nothing. It was just me. I had a ton of work on the schedule, didn't know how I was going to get done, didn't know what was going to happen. And I hired my

Branden Sewell (34:58.908)
business coach and you know I had to do what you just said I had to sit down and what I actually did is I wrote down like what are here's my priorities and non-negotiables this is what I'm not willing to give up. So like you know in this season I know I'm going to have to really hustle and get after it but I'm not willing to take away from my faith right so like that's all that's going to be a priority.

top priority can't compromise there, my marriage. I can't let my marriage suffer in this season of hustling. Okay, still gotta find a way to put my faith first. Still gotta find a way to make sure that my marriage is a key priority. I have kids, so I've gotta make sure that I still make time for my kids. What are some of the negotiables? It's like you said, I surf. So okay, maybe not as much time to surf.

I'm fishing. Okay, maybe not as maybe I'm not going fishing on the weekends or you know, whatever. And so I did exactly what you're saying. But I think something really effective is like, write it down, get it out of your out of your head, and write it down on paper, type it up in a document and say here in this season, I want to get off the ladder, I'm going to give myself you know, some just things that I've got to accomplish, I'm going to

You know set some small goals that i need to i you know i recommend reading atomic habits but just setting some small goals and small things that you can you can start doing to become that person who is an off the ladder contractor right you gotta become that you gotta change your mindset you gotta change your priorities you gotta change your focus on what you're investing your time and your energy into.

And so I think writing it down is a big step and and even setting some like some time goals, you know, like I'm going to accomplish this. I remember I told my coach, I said to him on one of the first phone calls we had when I was in that season of my business being in trouble, I said, if I can't turn this around in six months or less, I'm done. And I actually turned my business around in four months. But it's because I just.

Branden Sewell (37:20.882)
I didn't leave it open ended. It wasn't like, well, I'm going to turn it around and maybe that'll take me a year. Maybe that'll take two years. It was like, this has to happen in six months or less or I'm done. And then I was able to beat that. got after it and in four months, I was back up to, I think I had three guys on staff again. We were cranking out work and

Jason Phillips (37:23.353)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (37:48.762)
You know, now I'm back up to running four crews and have a sales guy. so it's just, I think you've got to, write it down, get it clearly defined.

Jason Phillips (38:00.113)
Yeah, that definitely helps. know, Brandon, back to one of the things you said about trust, know, when you trust someone, it's risky. studies have shown that people that risk more win more, although they may lose more too, but they're going to win more. And when it comes to trust, people that lead with trust, they may get burned occasionally.

Branden Sewell (38:12.305)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (38:29.306)
but they also get further. So leading with trust, it actually wins more. And I see a lot of contractors that, okay, because they've had no formal sales training, they sell on price. And because they don't know how to place people in roles in their company, they hire people based on industry knowledge or experience or

hey, they're available right now and I need someone to do this right now. Rather than hiring for someone that's truly aligned with the role. So you end up with people that are misaligned for the role. This can be in any position in the company and I see this all the time. So what happens is there's floundering performance, then the manager or the owner is dissatisfied, has a conversation, and then that doesn't go well.

and then it creates this downward spiral and now all of sudden your brother-in-law, sister-in-law, friend, whoever that you hired and never should have been put in that position to start with, not only are they no longer an employee, they're no longer a friend or the relationship is broken. So when it comes to hiring people on your team, the number one thing is to hire people based on their innate desires, their talents, what they're naturally have, what they're prone to, not that they've developed a skill.

But let give you an example. For instance, a lion cub, its mother will teach it how to hunt, to give it the skill to hunt. But that desire to hunt is wired in by God. And each of us have different things. Some people are wired for, you know, to be more outgoing. Some people are wired to be more reserved. Some are wired for being assertive and controlling and bold.

And some are very influential and very social. Others are great at keeping stability and peace. Others are great at detail and structure. And each role in our company needs a certain mix of all of those things. And if you don't see that and you don't understand how that works, you end up with a mismatch. put a square peg in a round hole and it just will never work. More training.

Branden Sewell (40:48.006)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (40:56.992)
isn't going to fix it, more accountability conversations aren't going to fix it. And what happens is eventually you might stumble upon someone in three years. I remember in my early years when I didn't know about the predictable behavior of people, I'd come across a superstar. like, whoa, man, where did they come from? How do I get more of this type of person? And I didn't understand what it was about. It was about the internal wiring of how they're made. had nothing to do.

Branden Sewell (41:02.139)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (41:22.545)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (41:25.696)
with their experience. And because we don't have training programs, we don't know how to place people and align their talents with the roles, then we just end up hiring for the wrong reasons. that's another big mistake that causes a lot of people to just give up and say things like you said earlier, like, I can't trust people. I can't trust them to do it. Can't trust them to do it right. They won't get it done on time. It's because they really haven't learned the skill of

Branden Sewell (41:28.251)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (41:55.479)
onboard hiring and placing people in the right roles.

Branden Sewell (42:00.154)
Yeah, that's so good. I talk about this all the time because it was something I learned just through trial and error and making the mistakes and hiring the wrong people, putting, like you said, putting people in the wrong roles and hiring for the wrong reasons. one of the things that I implemented is when I bring somebody on, I have an onboarding process. Well, let me go back.

I have an interview where like before I didn't have really like a structured interview. didn't have and then my my questions in my interview were more based around skills rather than character. So the questions that I would ask in my interview is like what experience do you have painting? Do you know how to spray? Are you are you comfortable on ladders? How would you paint the inside of how would you paint this room?

How would you go about painting an exterior of a house? How would you prep? And it was all based on skills and ability. And I didn't have anything in my interview process based on character. And now my entire interview process is, it's all character. So every question is based around trying to understand what motivates that person. And then,

You know if they're going and then I questions also help me to see are they going to be a good fit for my team because how they answer the question is going to tell me so much about who they are and whether they're going to align with our values and our mission as a company if if they answer my question about taking ownership over a failure and they kind of like make a comment like and I hear this all the time. well I'm really great at what I do I don't really make mistakes red flag you know.

I want the guy who says, yeah, there was this one time on this job I made this big mistake. This is how it went wrong. But this is how I owned it and this is how I fixed it. Bam. You're you've got it. That's what I want. I want that humility. That's that's what I'm looking for. I need that character on my team so that I don't I don't expect you to be perfect. I expect you to own your mistakes. Be coachable. Be trainable.

Branden Sewell (44:23.537)
And then I can come to you and say, hey, we missed it here. We got to fix this and then have no like pushback. OK, no problem. We'll get it fixed. And so now my entire interview process is it's all about character. And so I have the same questions, every interview documented as them as they're answering. And then it's like I give them a score like is this guy aligned or not? And then also when I interview my guys, I have I sit.

I have a table in our shop and it's where I do all my interviews and I have the guys sit across from me and behind me on the wall is our values on a really big poster and our mission statement on a really big poster. And so while we're sitting there, can see them, I watch them, I can see them like glancing up and looking at our values and looking at our mission statement. then I, towards the end of the interview, I'll ask them if they have any questions and then I like, read through it and I tell them about who we are.

know why we do what we do. But then if I hire them, I have an onboarding process where like, you know, we spend an entire day going over like, what are each value going over our mission as a company, going over really just how we do things and what is our character. And so I think that's, you know, when I when I used to hire it was like just to get warm bodies.

Now it's like I'm really trying to look for guys and gals who are going to fit what our company is trying to accomplish based on our mission, our values, and who we are, and hiring for character instead of skills or abilities. And you know, I tell people all the time, it's like amazing people are out there, right? There are amazing people out there who can paint, who have the skill and have the ability. They're looking for an amazing company to work for.

And I say become the company that great people want to work for. And so like if you can't find great people, stop blaming, you know, the fact that nobody wants to work or stop blaming the fact that you can't find great help and start looking at, well, what am I doing to attract them? Right. So if you're struggling to find great people, we'll look at that. Like, what are you doing? What is your

Branden Sewell (46:45.253)
What is your interview process? What is your onboarding and training process look like to hire and retain great people? And if you're not doing anything to invest in that or make it better, then you have to own that. And until you're willing to put the time and the energy into creating that system and that process, you're gonna continue to struggle to find great people.

Jason Phillips (47:08.225)
Yeah, you got to be recruiting year-round that's the bottom line and you've got a you've got to ask questions in the interview and Whether same person interview or on the phone that that start uncovering There there I mean, of course you want to know their background their history there you want to know what experience and skills they have and And you definitely want to begin to uncover character ultimately, you won't know their correct their character until you've worked with them for a bit

Branden Sewell (47:10.886)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (47:36.423)
Okay, but there are definitely it's amazing how many clues will come out when you ask the right questions. But then there's, you know, the, the, the, when it comes to their, their talents and their inner, their inner drives and those things with the psychometric, with a psychometric assessment, those things are very easy to, to discover. And so that really, really helps one reduce, reduce turnover, hire people that

Branden Sewell (47:36.774)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (48:04.393)
going to be a better fit, more engaged, get better results. And when people are working for a company where they have a great relationship with their manager, they're getting to use their talents and their skills for something that they feel is worthy, they're seen, they're heard, they're recognized, they're going to be more engaged and happier. And at the end of the day, your company is going to have so much greater

productivity and therefore profitability when you have the right people aligned in the right role, they're fully engaged. It makes a huge difference.

Branden Sewell (48:43.941)
Yeah, I wrote down here to making sure you explain what winning looks like, right? Because I think another way that you can struggle when it comes to like finding people or, you know, building your team is if you don't have it documented, you know, we I'm sure a lot of people would know it as like KPIs or KRAs, key performance indicators of like, okay, here's your role.

This is what you're being hired for, and this is what success looks like in your role. another pastor that I know, he would say that, what, I'm trying to remember exactly how he said it, but basically that the failure to like create expectation will create resentment. and he would always give this example. He would say like, if I'm a leader,

and I tell you to go outside and give bring back a rock for me and you know so you go out you bring a rock back to me but it's like jagged and you know looks all messy and dirty and then I get mad at you because I wanted a smooth rock but I didn't tell you that well that's that's on me as the leader I didn't create clear expectations of what I wanted you to go out and do

And so I feel like we as leaders, we can get mad at our team, you know, for not doing what we expect, but we're not creating the expectation. They don't know what winning looks like until we tell them what winning looks like. So if we don't take the time to sit down and know like, okay, this is what winning looks like for my business. like, you know, we have in our shop, we have like a whole area

dedicated to key performance indicators for our sales. Like, so here's what winning looks like in our sales. We need to hit this conversion rate. We need to sell at this average price per job. We need to bring in X amount of leads. And so we have all of that written out. Here's our goal each month. Here's our goal for the year. And this is, we need to hit all of these metrics. And if we do these, then we're winning. And then we can clearly see where we're not.

Branden Sewell (51:03.567)
And so when I meet with my sales guy, he sees like, okay, this is what is expected of you. This is what we have to do to win. And then in the same aspect for our production side of business, we have the same thing. Like we need to complete X amount of jobs per month. Are we doing upsells on jobs? like if we're on a job, we...

You know offering to upsell like hey, I know you didn't include these doors. We could you know, so just getting my guys to like upsell when they're doing the job. So we have goals for that. We have goals for how many reviews we get so we're tracking like the performance there and so. Just creating these expectations of like hey, this is this is how we win. You know here we want to aim for this gross profit margin.

hey, is our goal for when we're gonna get this job done and this is the profit margin we wanna hit. But if you're just kind of shooting at the dark and you're mad and you don't know why, you feel the effects of the business, you feel that pressure, but you don't look at the numbers and it's like you can't even, you don't even know how to tell them why you're upset or why things are frustrating. So I think you gotta...

You have to one, look at it, track it, and then communicate it and create an expectation of what it looks like to win.

Jason Phillips (52:33.382)
Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of business owners that struggle with defining success in various roles. Some roles it's pretty easy to define success and other roles it's not as easy to, you how about an administrative person or an appointment setter? What does success look like in those positions? And it's not always easy. That's a reason why it's really helpful to learn from someone who's been where you are or where you want to go.

and they've already paid the price of education for you. And lot of that information you can get for free or you can get a coaching program or something like that and get some more formal help. how can you expect your employee to hit the target if the target's not clear? Yeah, you're right.

Branden Sewell (53:07.824)
Right.

Branden Sewell (53:21.765)
Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, we talked about this too. One of the big things that I struggle with as a leader is, you know, I'm a Christian-owned business and, you know, my faith is really, really important to me. Representing Christ well is like always at the forefront of my mind. So it's even when issues or challenges arise, I try to

come at it from a standpoint of like, okay, this is going on. How do I not respond out of emotion? And how do I respond from a place of wisdom? How do I handle this like, you know, from a Christ-like perspective? And sometimes that can be extremely challenging because I'm at this like, war within of like, I wanna like, mow this guy over right now with my words because of how I feel.

But then I'm like, okay, like how, how would Christ handle this? How does, in my relationship with Christ, you know, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes. How does he handle me? You know, like does he condemn me and mow me over and make me feel like I'm, you know, the scum of the earth? No, right? So I am always trying to look at it through that lens, but I had shared with you, you know, offline, like that can be a really big

challenge for me. man, that's something that I'm still trying to figure out. if you have anything to

Jason Phillips (54:57.083)
You know, Brandon, yeah, sure. mean, you're not alone. And, you know, there's a difference between heart led leadership and guilt led leadership. And, you know, it's a lot of, I've seen, I see a lot of Christian business people that they confuse, sometimes they confuse compassion with

with avoidance of solving a problem. And other times they keep people in a role out of fear or guilt or some type of false mercy. And at the end of the day, we are called to be stewards in our business. something, knowing that you're a fan of entree leadership, you've probably heard Dave Ramsey say this before, to be unclear is to be unkind.

Branden Sewell (55:51.917)
Yes, yes.

Jason Phillips (55:52.572)
And if you allow someone to flounder in a role that's not good for them, that they're never going to succeed well at, then you are doing that person a disservice. And that is not a good steward stewardship of your business, nor of that relationship that you that you have with them. And, you know, keeping underperformers around because they're trying. That's not OK. That's that's not hope. That's hopium. And hopium is a drug that will paralyze you.

Branden Sewell (56:20.881)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (56:22.201)
Okay, and so a lot of times most, most business owners, most small business owners are not equipped to handle hard conversations well. And if you, the conversation, I'm gonna say this to everybody, listen, the conversation that you're avoiding is the most important conversation that you need to have.

Branden Sewell (56:47.567)
Yeah, that's good.

Jason Phillips (56:49.616)
And so you can, I mean.

You don't need to be a pushover. Yes, we need to be filled with love, mercy. We need to value people. I mean, look at this. Why does a business, you know, why does a business exist? You might say, it's to make money. But like I said earlier, a business exists to acquire and keep customers. And you do that through value. Your business should be like a value generation machine. A value for your client, a value for the people that help you serve your client.

Branden Sewell (56:58.405)
brain.

Branden Sewell (57:22.032)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (57:25.26)
and a value for you as the owner. And we need to have a workplace where people have clarity, they have training, they have accountability, they have opportunity to grow, respect, all of those things. And if someone is not fitting the culture, they're not fitting the role, whatever it is, it's best for everybody to cut the strings and let them go so that you can start over.

filling the role properly and they can start over by finding a role that they're going to excel in.

Branden Sewell (58:01.157)
Yeah, that's good. So like, you know, in what you're saying, you know, it's like you can be on one extreme where you're you have like no people skills and you just run people over and you don't have any type of empathy or compassion. But then you can also fall on this other side of what you're saying, which I feel like sometimes I can be guilty of this of.

where I can't remember exactly how you described it. you know, just like compassion masked as like in avoiding like a hard conversation or something. And, you know, I think to some extent that's an area that I can fall into. But I also look at

And please, speak to this if you feel like you can. But sometimes I think to myself, I'm like, it goes back to like this opportunity cost thing where I'm like, OK, if I make this issue that maybe it feels like a big issue to me, right, or it's bothering me, but it's not necessarily affecting, like, for example, the job still getting done on time, the customer is happy.

It's just something's being done in a way that I just don't like or prefer. And I want to change it, but I'm just avoiding having the conversation because I'm like, whatever, you know, like the job's getting done. It's getting done on time. Customers happy. Like, whatever, I'll just deal with it. And so I feel like I can get into this place where I'm choosing to just see past something. And I don't know if that's right or wrong, but I feel like

I think to myself, if I make this a bigger issue than it has to be, then I'm going to create another problem for myself in the sense that, maybe now I don't have this person and I've got a full schedule and I got to now I'm going to have to figure out how to hire somebody, hire the right person and still get all of this work done. Does that make sense? So it's a challenging place to be in.

Jason Phillips (01:00:13.346)
Yeah, absolutely.

Branden Sewell (01:00:17.614)
I'm just curious if you have anything to share on that or if it's something that you could speak to.

Jason Phillips (01:00:23.522)
Well, I would say, you know, it's important to understand how mission critical it is. As you said, hey, it's not, it's not hurting the client. We're still gonna get the job done on time. Okay. That's, that's good. Right. Does it hurt profitability? Is it creating a bad image? Is it hurting the brand? Depends on that might be situational. Now having said that, you know, people need some autonomy in their job to make decisions, to do things a certain way.

And so I would consider, it, know, how important is it? Is this just your personal preference that's different than theirs? Or is there a good business reason why it needs to be done the way that you want it done? And there very well may be a good reason, business reason that it needs to be done the way you want it done. And they don't understand what that is. So sometimes it might be, it might be helping them understand the why. Other times it might be, you know what, that's not the way I do it.

Branden Sewell (01:01:12.261)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:01:16.346)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (01:01:19.48)
but they're doing it, customer's happy, all is good, I'm gonna overlook it, it doesn't matter.

Branden Sewell (01:01:24.344)
give you a prime example. So like if I had it my way, this is a I think a pretty good example. I would have everybody show up in uniform every single day wearing the exact same thing, right? So you know, if you work on a team, everybody's wearing the same shirt, everybody's wearing the same painter's white. And sometimes I'll show up on a job and it's like

somebody's not wearing painter's whites that day. They're wearing like, you know, gray shorts. like for me, that bothers me. Like I'm like, dude, come on. Like, you know, you're supposed to wear painter's whites or they're they're not wearing their company shirt. They're wearing like a fishing shirt. And I'm like, technically you're not, you know, abiding by what my company policy is, which is to be wearing a uniform. But it's like, OK, do I make that a big deal or

Do I just, it's like, okay, like I understand, like maybe, you know, it's painting, like ever, we're like going through clothes like dirty, it's Florida. Going through, you know, sometimes a couple shirts a day if we're like working outside and it's super hot. And so maybe it's like a matter of like, just didn't have a clean shirt that day. So I've been, I worked at a job one time when I was younger and I got fired for wearing the wrong color pants.

You know, so, so anyway, it's like it's little stuff like that where it's like, OK, well, is that really a big deal or not? I don't know.

Jason Phillips (01:02:57.997)
Well, let's, know, and it may not be, do you, do you want to have that image? Is that going to have a, okay. And is that going to help you sell at higher prices and get more jobs in the neighborhood and make a better client experience? It will. It will. It will. mean, and we can debate how we can debate how much that might be, but let's just say that, you know, comes to, comes to work and during his first week, he's late.

Branden Sewell (01:03:03.557)
I do.

Branden Sewell (01:03:12.283)
I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jason Phillips (01:03:27.543)
Two days and you don't see anything.

Branden Sewell (01:03:31.483)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (01:03:32.406)
Okay, well now it's acceptable because you didn't say anything. Let's say John wears those gray shorts instead of the painter's whites and you don't say anything. Now the other guy see him get away with that. So now every rule that you have is now negotiable. They're suggestions, they're not standards. And I would suggest that when someone won't follow a simple standard, what are they gonna not follow when you're not looking? Are they?

Branden Sewell (01:03:48.741)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:03:56.081)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (01:03:59.762)
Yeah, that's good.

Jason Phillips (01:04:00.138)
Are they not gonna put the primer on? And now all of sudden you're gonna get called back in six to 12 months and the whole house is peeling? Because they skipped critical steps? Now I get it, and you get it too, it's a tension. Hey, we're going through a lot of clothes here as painters and it's hot, it's sweaty, and we're changing out to a day. Okay, so, but helping them understand that it starts with the very first infraction, there has to be a conversation. Hey, if this happens again,

Branden Sewell (01:04:03.249)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (01:04:08.389)
bright, right?

Branden Sewell (01:04:27.6)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (01:04:29.77)
Look, it's important to us. If this happens again, I'm let it slide this one time. If this happens again, I'm gonna send you home for the day. And the next time after that, just means this isn't a good job for you. Okay? So it's what are you gonna tolerate? And we do need to pick our battles. We do need to pick our battles. People hate having to wear uniforms. But it also, you know what it also does? It means you don't have to decide what to wear.

Branden Sewell (01:04:37.627)
Right.

Branden Sewell (01:04:43.632)
Right.

Branden Sewell (01:04:47.813)
Yeah. Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:04:53.477)
Right?

Jason Phillips (01:04:57.388)
Why do you think Steve Jobs and a lot of these guys always wear the, you know, a certain uniform, black shirt, because they didn't stand in their closet for 20 minutes trying to figure out what to wear. They already knew what they were going to wear. Then they're using their mind for more productive things. It's, it's, it's simplifies getting ready for work. Okay. And, uh, and the uniform can, if that's a battle you want to, that you want to fight, then I would suggest on the very first infraction. Okay. Because it's not going to get any better.

Branden Sewell (01:05:11.077)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:05:15.739)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (01:05:27.127)
on their first week, their performance, their effort, their performance is not going to get any better on week two. They're on their very best behavior week one. If they're late for work on week one, it's only going to get way worse from there unless you nip it in the bud in a kind, in a very kind manner. But you have to, you have to set the standard. Someone has to champion the company way of doing things. Someone has to champion not only the way we dress, but the

Branden Sewell (01:05:27.334)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:05:42.63)
Yeah.

Jason Phillips (01:05:55.795)
the way we treat our teammates, the way we treat our equipment, the way we treat our clients. If someone's not holding that standard, it's gonna fall completely apart.

Branden Sewell (01:05:58.258)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (01:06:01.83)
Yeah.

Branden Sewell (01:06:07.471)
Yeah, that's so good. It's funny because I find myself in that place for different things of trying to, I was just having a conversation with one of my guys yesterday and one of my guys was actually, he was upset about the way that one of my other employees was doing something and.

Just the way that I responded to him is I just said, you know, for me as a business owner, I do, I have to choose my battles. And I said to him, said, that is, I said, I know it bothers you. It's just not something that I'm willing to make an issue. And so it was just a difference of how they do things. And I was like, you know, it's just, it's for me, that's a battle I'm not willing to, it's not a, you know, the term, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. I'm gonna like let that pass.

And I think that that's different for everybody. So I think, you know, I have to get very real with myself sometimes and I have to sit down and I have to, you know, kind of say to myself, what are like, I definitely have some non-negotiables. you do this one time, you're out, you know? And I've had those situations. I've had people that there hasn't been.

grace in certain situations. It's like, hey, this you're gone. Sorry. You know, but there are things that I've I've sat down and I've said like, hey, you know, like, yeah, I'm that's not something that I'm willing to like, you know, go to battle on. And and so I think only I think every business owner is going to be a little bit different. But I think you too, like as a business owner, have to decide like, OK.

what does winning look like for me? If these things are happening, am I okay with that? Does that make sense? At least that's how I deal with it. have to, I feel like it's the only way I can deal with some of those things where I feel like it's kind of like a, okay, am I gonna fire somebody who wore the wrong color pants today? That's a tough one for me, but.

Jason Phillips (01:08:05.227)
That sure does.

Jason Phillips (01:08:22.378)
We know, well also, and certain personality styles are not very compliant. Some people need autonomy more than others, and some are gonna buck the rules because they're the rules. And the question is, do you want people that are easy to manage, or do you want people that are gonna be highly productive in their role? You may have to put up with a little correcting certain people on a regular basis, and be okay with that to get the productivity you want. Now I'm not saying that you should sacrifice culture,

Branden Sewell (01:08:46.353)
Mm-hmm. Bright. Mm-hmm.

Jason Phillips (01:08:51.858)
or the way you honor one another. but certain people are gonna push the boundaries because that's just the way they're wired.

Branden Sewell (01:09:01.489)
Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that you have to develop an emotional IQ in a way of how you deal with people because everybody's so different. Every one of my employees is extremely unique and extremely different on

You know how they're how they're motivated how they do things and and so I have to be very like. I have to be aware of that right and and how what my approaches with them and. Any no that's I think that's a skill you have to develop like you have to have you know I mean I don't know if there's another word for it I'm just saying it's emotional IQ but just the ability to people like you like how do I deal with people and I think.

more time in leadership and more time leading people helps you, I think, to develop that more. Because I can definitely say that I have that better now than I did back in my early 20s when I first started my business. I was very emotionally driven when I was younger. And I think just over time and kind of getting some wisdom, I actually just shared this scripture with my team the other day.

I have a devotional that I actually share. Have you ever heard of Basecamp?

Yes, I want we use base camp and so like this morning. I woke up super early. I was up at like 3 o'clock 330 and so like I get into the word and I just I post a I write a devotional for my guys and and then I like share a prayer with them and some thoughts on the scripture and but anyway the one that I shared with them it actually wasn't today but it was yesterday was the scripture about being

Branden Sewell (01:11:07.729)
Quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger. And I feel like when I was younger, I was like the exact opposite of all of that. I was like very quick to speak. I didn't listen, and I got angry really easily with my team. And so I've had to just learn over time how to listen to my guys, hear past even what they're maybe saying, see the bigger picture.

You be slow to respond to whatever is happening and and then not be led by emotion and anger. Just like stop. I like I told them I said I call them my pause moment. You know, I just in the midst of like whatever is going on, I've learned to just pause, you know, and whatever that initial feeling is, pause. Don't say anything. Don't respond. Take the time.

listen, process, use some wisdom, and that's helped me over time to get better. And I went from where I had a lot of turnover with my team to now I've got guys who are going on three years with me. And so I think that's a big part of it, is just learning that principle. anyway, anything to add to that?

Jason Phillips (01:12:35.25)
You know, managing your emotions is a key to success probably in everything in life. And unfortunately, I feel like a lot of faith-based Christian business owners have not developed the ability, you can call it emotional maturity, or you could just say the ability to master their emotions. And they become angry or whatever it is, and they blow their witness.

And so they'll, like you're doing, they'll go share scriptures and write prayers, but then those don't align with what the employees are seeing. And it just blows the witness.

Branden Sewell (01:13:15.419)
Mm-hmm.

Branden Sewell (01:13:18.917)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. you know, I think I think too, I mean, it's for me and in sharing that it keeps me accountable because I'm that's what it does for me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, like I said, that's one of the greatest things that I struggle with is like, do I don't want to.

Jason Phillips (01:13:33.529)
Yeah, absolutely reminds you, right?

Branden Sewell (01:13:44.589)
compromise my witness. mean, I've had the opportunity recently with one of my guys where he like recently came to me and was like, hey, you didn't know this, but I've been reading. He's like, I don't comment. I don't respond when you post those devotions and stuff. he's like, I don't respond. He's like, but I want to let you know I've been reading them. And then we, know, a couple, a few weeks went by and then he's like, hey, I went out and I bought my first Bible.

And then he, like a few weeks later, he's like, hey, man, I want to get baptized. And so, you know, it's like I want to keep those opportunities open. Right. And so that's why it's so important for me to try and, you know, really walk out my faith in in a real way to my guys. My guys will tell me all the time I had

One my guys, yesterday I was on the phone with him and he cussed and he was like, dude, I'm so sorry. He's like, I try so hard not to cuss around you. I, like I, my guys will never hear me cuss, you know? You know, cause I feel like that's part of my witness. And Timothy, it says that we can be an example in that way in our speech. And so, you know, I try to just be cognizant of that all the time. Like how do my guys, I remember being, I took my guys out to eat one time and

that kind of few of them were cutting up about this lady who was in line and you they're making comments and I said no I'm not as like I have a wife I'm not saying anything and I remember one of my guys he was like well you can say she's beautiful I was like no I was like my eyes are for my wife and it was an opportunity to witness in that moment of like no I'm like my wife

is mine. don't need to participate in that. But those are little moments where I'm like, okay, I want to walk in integrity of my faith, right? So that it's not something that I've worked for people who have said that they're Christians. then it's like, I was like, really? I wouldn't have been able to tell. And so that's why it's so important to me. sometimes

Branden Sewell (01:16:08.432)
you know, making decisions and stuff has been challenging for me when I think about it from my faith perspective. but anyway, I want to we've been going about an hour and 15 minutes. So I want to try and bring this here to a close. But I'm just going to open it up here at the end. Is there any like final thoughts that you want to share with the listeners about getting off the ladder, about that system, the SOS system and

Any final value you've maybe something you didn't feel like you got to share that you would like to

Jason Phillips (01:16:41.85)
Sure, know guys and gals, you can build an incredible business that will finance your future dreams for you and for your family. And you can also make a great experience for your clients and your employees along the way. And you may be frustrated, you may be ready to throw in the towel right now, but I'm telling you, you can do it. Get some margin.

trust somebody, lead with trust, give them absolute clarity when you delegate to them and become a student of business, a student of leadership, a student of sales, a student of people skills. maybe read one book a month, listen to an audiobook, listen to podcasts, learn from experts, maybe join a coaching program and you can have a business that's gonna help you.

live with greater freedom, greater purpose, and greater impact.

Branden Sewell (01:17:44.944)
good stuff. Well, Jason, if somebody wants to connect with you outside of the podcast, what are some ways that people could connect with you or if they just want to follow up with you? How could somebody get in touch with you?

Jason Phillips (01:17:57.113)
I'm on Facebook and Instagram all the time. That's a great way. You can also find me at jasonwphilips.com.

Branden Sewell (01:18:06.808)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jason, for getting on the podcast. Thank you so much for the value that you brought to the listeners. Being that we're in the same industry, I see a lot of guys who refer to you, get a lot of value from you. I see the impact that you're having on other people's lives. And so I thank you for that.

Even if you don't know it, I pay attention to things you share and the things that you're doing. It inspires me, motivates me to be better. So thank you for what you're doing in our industry to make it better and just to elevate people and serve people. Thank you guys if you're watching today. Thank you for tuning into this episode. If you're watching on YouTube, please like, comment, subscribe to the channel, share this with somebody. If you're listening on

Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast platform, please rate and review the show. That'll help us get this out to more people and help other contractors like you get off the ladder. And if you need any resources to run your business, implement some systems, and make things smoother and more efficient, I have some resources for you guys in the show notes. I do get credit if you guys decide to use any of those resources.

through using my affiliate links. So I really do appreciate if you're interested in any of those. Please make sure to use my link so that I could get credit that helps to support the show and the podcast and doing what I do here. So thank you so much guys. We'll see you next time on the next episode of the Off the Ladder Podcast.