The Five Levels of Leadership - Level 1

 keywords

leadership, business, self-improvement, John Maxwell, Off the Ladder Podcast, positional leadership, personal growth, leadership development, home service business, investing in yourself


 summary

In this episode of the Off the Ladder Podcast, Branden Sewell discusses the importance of leadership in home service businesses, focusing on John Maxwell's Five Levels of Leadership. He emphasizes the need for self-investment, personal growth, and the transition from positional authority to genuine leadership. The conversation explores the challenges of leading from a position of power and the necessity of building relationships and trust with team members. Branden encourages listeners to evaluate their values and practices as leaders and to take actionable steps towards improvement.


 takeaways

Leadership is a journey that requires time and dedication.
Positional leadership is the lowest level of leadership.
Investing in yourself is crucial for effective leadership.
You can't lead others if you don't like them.
Self-evaluation is key to personal growth as a leader.
True leadership is about earning respect, not demanding it.
High turnover often indicates poor leadership.
Building relationships with employees fosters trust and loyalty.
Continuous learning is essential for leadership development.
You are the ceiling of your organization's potential.


 sound bites

"You have to work on yourself."
"You can't pour out of an empty cup."
"You have to change to grow."
"Leadership is an honor, not a given."
"Don't just listen to it, implement it."
"Invest in your leadership, get better."
"You can't lead people until you like people."


Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Leadership and the Podcast
02:54 Understanding the Five Levels of Leadership
03:59 Exploring Level One: Positional Leadership
11:31 The Importance of Self-Investment in Leadership
17:53 Evaluating Personal Values and Leadership Practices
24:47 Moving Beyond Positional Authority
29:10 Looking Ahead: Building Relationships in Leadership

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Transcript

Branden Sewell (00:01.624)
Hi everybody, I am Brandon Sewell. I'm the owner of Seal Pro Painting and the host of the Off the Ladder Podcast. And we exist to help home service business owners learn so that they can lead well and ultimately live life off of the ladder. thank you so much for joining today's episode. so if you haven't been following along or you're just you know new to the Off the Ladder podcasts in this community,

I've been doing daily episodes as well, shorter episodes every other day of the week, besides Wednesdays. Wednesdays are longer episodes go live. so anyway, if you're new to the community, go and check out those daily podcast episodes. Those are gonna be 15 minutes or less, and really those episodes are are really just about giving you some quick actionable advice. these Wednesday episodes, these are

Longer episodes designed to you know, really dive a little bit deeper into leadership and you know what it takes to get off the ladder. so if you are joining in for this longer episode, let's go ahead and jump into this. So for the shorter episodes, I have been just doing audio and not doing the video. Obviously, Wednesdays will still be video and be posted on YouTube.

so you can watch that. So if you're watching on YouTube, this book right here, or this is a devotional, this is Leadership Promises for Everyday by John Maxwell. This is what I'm basing my short episodes off of right now. just basically reading a devotional and the topic that goes along with it to talk about leadership. so just some quick actionable advice.

What we're gonna jump into for the next, I don't know, it could take a few weeks, you know, the next few episodes to really dive into this. but I am diving into this book right here. It is the levels of the five levels of leadership by John Maxwell. So that's what it looks like: five levels of leadership, John Maxwell. so basically what we're gonna do is we're just gonna take the time to jump into what those five

Branden Sewell (02:26.733)
Levels are and go over them, try to help you figure out where you're at in those five levels and getting to the top one, which is the pinnacle. so really quick, let me just open this up. so the five levels of leadership one is position. So position is people follow you because they have to.

so the lowest level of leadership, people leading you just simply because they have to. You're the leader and you're the boss, so they follow you. second is permission. So this is based on relationships. people follow you because they want to. so that's the second level. The third level is production. So this is about results. People follow

Because of what you have done for the organization. the fourth level is people development, reproduction. People follow because of what you have done for them. Five is the pinnacle, which is respect. People follow because of who you are and what you represent. so the if we jump into

this we're gonna kinda go into level one.

And I think that when you think about positional, this at its lowest level is like the hardest place to be, right? You don't want to be there like you get to position one because you started a business and you started bringing on employees, right? You hired, and that's like the bottom level. You're

Branden Sewell (04:27.445)
Maybe this is where you're at right now because you're on the ladder, you're trying to get off the ladder, and you're trying to hire employees, right? And right out the gate, until you develop these other areas, people are simply just going to follow you because you are the boss. They haven't had a chance for you to build relationships or drive results or to reproduce something.

by making them a leader or generate respect, right? So that takes that takes time. so I think what you have to realize on the most basic level is where you're at and what you have to work towards. And I think the other reality too is that this takes time, right? You can't be at level one and expect yourself to get to level five with your team overnight.

I think there's like a misconception in business in general. Like we we look at people who are further along than we are, and we must assume that, wow, they just like they just got there. They just arrived. But the reality is, is it takes time, it takes hard work, it takes dedication. and I think there's there's a lot of nuance to that. Some some of this can happen faster for some individuals based on like

Focus and intensity and you know that's their priority at the time. for some individuals, this might take more time. you might not have the ability to be as focused and intentional in a particular season of your life to get to the level that you want to in your leadership. So I think understanding that is is important and understanding where you are. I think ultimately don't

Compare yourself to other people while you're on this journey in the sense of like timing. So realize that the guy who is at level five, he had to do work and put in time to get to level five in his leadership. You may not be there yet, and that's okay. Give yourself some grace, give yourself a break. I think.

Branden Sewell (06:49.793)
The reality though is accepting it. Like you have to accept that, hey, I am at level one, and that's okay, that's good. That's a certain level of hard too. Like it's hard to lead a team when they only follow you because you're the boss. It's equally as hard, but different, to lead at level five, because now the hard part is.

you have to remain humble as a leader. You have to constantly be working on yourself. You have to constantly be equipping and leading others. And you know, leading a life that I don't want to say demands respect, but it earns the respect of the people that follow you, right? So that takes work. Like you can't just you know, go about leadership in a way of like

not being intentional about what you do as the leader, you have to take initiative to work on yourself and to do the work that it takes to be the leader that people are going to respect. So it's it's not easy to accomplish that. and what I would recommend you doing if you're a leadership who's working on yourself is like that's that's the first place to start is

You know, if you want to get off the ladder and you wanna move your way up these ranks of leadership, you have to work on yourself. Can't tell you how many times you know, I talk to guys who run businesses and I'll ask them like, Hey, you know, do you read books? No. Do you listen to podcasts? No. do you have a coach? No.

And then they'll bring problems to me and it's like, okay, we'll make time to read. Well, I don't have time to read. Like, what do you do in your truck when you're just driving to job sites? what do you do in your free time at home? Like, are you watching movies, binge watching TV episodes? Are you or binge watching yeah, TV shows? Are you

Branden Sewell (09:09.997)
Playing video games? Are you doom scrolling on social media? Like, what are you doing in your free time to where you say you don't have time to read or listen to an audiobook or listen to a podcast or invest in your own leadership? And if you don't take that first step, then you're not going to get past level one. you're not going to level up in your leadership. You have to realize, like,

I said this in one of my shorter episodes this week. Like the people who are leading at a very high level and have really big companies, like the companies that we aspire to, they I can guarantee you that they are reading books, they are listening to podcasts, listening to audiobooks, getting coaching.

Going to seminars, going to leadership conferences, being in rooms where they're able to learn and grow, and still it's hard for them at that level. So you like there it's a never ending process of developing yourself and learning and growing. And if you're not willing to do that, man, I would I would step out and say

That if you are not willing to invest in yourself and to get better, then I like I know it's some of you may not agree with this, then you probably shouldn't be a business owner. you should be an employee somewhere and be a really good employee. But to be a business owner, if you're not willing to invest in yourself, you're doing the people who are working for you a disservice because you're taking away.

An opportunity to invest in them because you aren't investing in yourself first. Like you can't pour out of an empty cup, right? You can't pour into others what you aren't pouring into yourself. So I would say like do a really hard evaluation and say, or ask yourself, am I willing to make the changes necessary to invest in myself?

Branden Sewell (11:31.148)
To invest in my leadership, to grow as a person, to stretch as a person, to get rid of old habits, to develop new habits, to decide like, hey, this isn't necessarily a bad thing in my life, but is it constructive? Is it helping me? Is it helping me grow? Is it helping me move forward? You know, I love there's a

A biblical principle. Paul says when I was a child, I did childish things, and now I am grown, and so I do away with those childish ways, and I grow up and I begin to do what someone grown does, right? So I think part of growing as a leader is you have to evaluate your life and say, okay, in order for me to go to these different levels, there are thin some things in my life I'm gonna have to change. There are

You know, and I think one of the biggest things we have to change is our mindset, right? We have to have this paradigm shift that happens where the way that we thought about something before ends up getting changed by maybe something we read or something we hear from a leader or a change in perspective. And then it's having the maturity to recognize when something no longer serves us in our life or brings value.

And then realizing like when it's time to cut ties with that in our lives and to to grow up and to mature. And you know, I think the the reality is on that journey of growth, we realize what is really most important to us and what we're willing to let go of and what we're willing to change. but all I can say is like.

I think from my own experiences that you have to change. And I think the limiting factor to our potential or what we'll do is really based on how much we're willing to change. are we willing to continue this this growth journey and this growth process? If we're not willing to continue to grow.

Branden Sewell (13:56.76)
Well then we're our own ceiling. And that's I think that's the r the reality is like we are the ceiling of our organizations as the leader. And until we're willing to, you know, really get out of our own way, you know, we have to get out of our own way so that we can really grow. And so I think what's encouraging though is that if you find yourself

in a position of leadership, right? You know, that could be because you started a business and now you are effectively by title the leader of your business. I think that that takes, right? So when you're not the leader of a business, you're not the owner, there was something that took place in you personally, right? You were driven to a point.

Whether it was like life circumstances or whatever, something led you to start your own business. That in itself is an indicator of leadership potential. Because you let whatever was going on in your life, whatever life circumstances were, or maybe an opportunity presented yourself, and you had the leadership ability.

To make a decision to say, okay, I'm going to move forward with this and to become a leader. And that's like step one, right? But what that reveals again is that there's potential there. Now, now that we've established, okay, we have potential, we've made this decision to step out and become a a leader, a business leader.

The next level is like continuing to dive into that and to to develop that because you know that's like it's like the initial invitation to say, Hey, great, you've started something. Most people in the world will never be able to say that they had a vision or a dream to start a business.

Branden Sewell (16:20.299)
And then they actually did it. Like that's one of the biggest differentiators between you know, those who have an idea or a vision and actually do something as they start, right? And so it's like, great, now there's this invitation to say, you have potential, but now what are you gonna do with it? And so now

you have to really lean into whether you're going to to take these next steps. I think once you realize, okay, I've started, I have potential as a leader, then it's then you need to start to ask yourself some pers really personal questions. Like, you know, who am I? what are my values?

You know, the book, it actually breaks down there's three different types of values: ethical values, relational values, success values. and you need to evaluate those. What leadership practices do I want to put into place? those are all things that you need to ask yourself. and I think what that does is it gives you like a kind of like a basis or a framework to say, like, okay, this is where I'm at.

here's what I wanna do and now what is it gonna take to do this? And then that's like where your whole journey starts.

Let's kind of dive into this part. So this I mean and I'm just gonna kind of read over some of some of like the the titles in this chapter talking about pos positional leadership. but it says the downside of position, true leadership isn't about position. so you have to realize like just because you are

Branden Sewell (18:20.363)
The leader based on your position doesn't mean that you're a great leader. oftentimes leaders who lead just based off of their position are probably some of the worst leaders if they think that people should just follow them just because they're the the person in charge. That's like that's the worst. I think they can be some of the most egotistical, prideful leaders out there. so it I think

You know, it can be this as having a leadership position. a leadership position is often misleading. You know, I think reality is is like a lot of times it is. you know we as leaders shouldn't lead from this stance of saying, like, well, I'm in charge, so you have to do what I say. It should be lead because

I take like watch my actions, watch who I am as a leader. and you know, don't just say like here I am, follow me. It's like, hey, here I am, look what I do, look how I live like my life, look how I make decisions, look at the fruit of my life, and hopefully that is something that you respect and want to follow.

So then this next point it says in this chapter is leaders who rely on position to lead often devalue people. Like I said, these are some of the most egotistical, prideful people. I think by I've always taken the the approach that like leading for me is an honor, right? And it's not a given.

At the end of the day, my people who work for me are incredibly value. Like I need them and I appreciate them because what we do is not possible without them. And so I can't devalue them. I have to put tremendous value on them. And that is not just from a a monetary standpoint.

Branden Sewell (20:51.211)
That's from a standpoint of like it's like it's just respect. Like in the same way that I want others to respect me as it as their leader, I have to respect my people. Like respect you know, the fact that they are an individual with their own dreams and desires and hobbies and families and goals and

life values and missions. Like they are an individual that deserves respect. So I can't devalue them. I have to believe in them. I have to trust them. I have to equip them and serve them. And hopefully in doing so I earn their respect. let's go on we'll pass that

Branden Sewell (21:46.359)
Sorry, I'm just

Branden Sewell (21:56.278)
I think this is ultimately just diving into all the negatives. and I you know what's funny is I can as I am like glancing over these points, I can remember seasons where like this is exactly where I was at. There's this point that says turnover is high for positional leaders. Like there was a season when I first started my business where like I lost all of my employees. So like all the guys that I started my business with.

when I transitioned from doing subcontractors to employees, none of those guys are with me anymore. but now a lot of my guys have been with me for years. you know, so that's I think I think that's a big factor in in your leadership is you're you begin to have employees who have longer tenure. I think that's a telltale sign that you're leading.

somewhat effectively. Not always, but I think it is one indicator. let's see.

Branden Sewell (23:08.119)
There's a there's a lot in here to unpack. this book is

I I think at the end of the day the the the main point of this chapter is really just diving into the fact that position is a negative thing. I I don't think we need to like dive in too many of those subtopics. But I think for you where you're at, try to evaluate, you know, getting off the ladder is not just about

getting off the ladder. You can get off the ladder tomorrow. but doing it effectively and in a healthy way takes you growing as a leader. So what I would encourage you to do too is go and buy this book. Go and buy John Maxwell's The Five Levels of Leadership and start

diving into where you're at as a leader. In the beginning of the book, it has some assessments that you can take to evaluate where you're at. but ultimately I think if you start to dive into those areas, you can start to really work on your leadership. And man, again, that's like the that's the the crux of of getting off the ladder is leadership. So the

the like I say

Branden Sewell (24:47.403)
We want to help people learn how to lead well. You know, you learn and then you lead. That's what you need to do as a leader and grow. You need to learn and lead. Learn, take massive action. Read books, take massive action. Listen to podcasts, take massive action. Implement what you hear. Implement what you're learning.

the worst thing you can do is listen to books, read a book, listen to a podcast, go to a seminar, go to a conference, leadership conference, do coaching, do all of those things, learn, and then never implement. I listen to Tommy Mello's podcast and, you know, Tommy Tommy Mello will often say that people will

Ask him like, hey, why do you give away your secrets and how you've grown your business and you know you do it for free, you're just giving away free advice to your competition. And he says, like, well, he does it because the reality is is that 99% of people will not implement what they hear. my challenge to you is don't let that be you. You know, as we talk about leadership on this podcast, as we talk about investing in yourself, like don't just listen to it, implement it.

you know, look at get really real with yourself and say, hey, where where is some time? You know, I've made the excuse that I don't have time to read or I don't have time to listen to a podcast. Do some really deep soul searching and ask yourself, like, is that the truth or is it just an excuse? I'd be willing to say it's probably just an excuse. you can make the time, you can find the time, you know, whether it's like

Back when I was doing six, seven estimates a day by myself, I called my I drove a Tacoma back then and I called it my I called it Tacoma University. So I had a rule for myself that if I was in my truck, I wasn't listening to music, I wasn't doing any of that, I either was listening to a podcast or listening to an audio book on business, self improvement, whatever, because I wanted to get better.

Branden Sewell (27:12.863)
I stressed on one of my daily episodes this week, like I have invested hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into learning about leadership. And, you know, I was like, I was thinking to myself recently about, you know, really, I was thinking about my employees. And I was being kind of like down on myself. because the reality is is like I still face challenges.

And I was like, you know, I've been doing this for going on 10 years. I'll be in business. We just started well, we'll start our tenth year of business here in the next month and a half. and I was like, man, like almost 10 years in and there's still challenges. I mean, my guys could go s you know, be business owners and you know, go do this themselves, and maybe I should just like throw in the towel.

being just, you know, obviously was kind of pitiful. And then I thought to myself, I was like, man, I have invested, like I said, hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into learning and leadership. And so like there's a lot of value that I have to give. And it's I like I think like I can't discredit that, right? And

And so if you want to grow, do the same thing. Invest in your in yourself. Invest in your leadership. Get those hundreds of hours of of reading in. Get those hundreds of hours of listening to audiobooks in. You know, get that so that you can build yourself up and continue to grow. So anyway, that's gonna bring this this episode to a close.

just to kind of give you a a quick expectation of what we'll go over next week on so that'll be next next Wednesday. we'll kind of dive into level two, which is permission, which is you can't lead people until you until you like people, which has to do with relationship. People will not follow you.

Branden Sewell (29:39.746)
Just because you know, you're in position, but they're gonna follow you because they want to, because they have relationship with you. So we're gonna kind of dive into that and talk about that. So maybe talk about some things that you can do to build a relationship with your employees and to build trust and all of those things. So we'll we'll dive into that. Some of the things that I've done, some strategies and things that I've implemented to build relationship and trust with my team.

which might give you some ideas of what you can do. but just a recap, remember this this episode is all about moving from positional authority to investing in yourself so that you can become that leader that people like and trust and respect. if you enjoyed this episode, please like this video, share it, subscribe to my channel.

If you're listening on a major podcast platform, Apple or Spotify, please rate and review the show. Share it with somebody. If you get anything from this podcast at all, any other episodes that you enjoyed, share those. Help get the word out. I'm trying to help people get off the ladder and do that effectively. And if you need any resources for your business to get off the ladder, check the show notes below.

there are some things that I use in my business to help me run a business effectively off the ladder. If you use my affiliate links, I do appreciate that. I do get credit, which helps to support me to continue to do this podcast and to make it better. I greatly appreciate you. Thank you so much. If you have feedback for me, please reach out, give it to me. you can reach out to me in the show notes. there should be a place where you can.

send in a message. you could also reach out to me through Facebook or Instagram and send me a personal message. I'd love to hear from you if you're a listener of the show and get your feedback on what you like, what you don't like, maybe guests you'd like to see us have one. I do have a really big guest that I am working on getting on the show. I've been talking to this person personally, I have been talking to their team.

Branden Sewell (32:04.045)
and as of right now, this person has said, Hey, yes, I want to get on your on your podcast. Let's have a conversation. They gave me the contact information to their team. I'm in the process of communicating with their team. Their team said a schedule is full until the fourth quarter. So I'm working on I have a follow-up conversation with them the end of October, and at the beginning of course Q4, to work on hopefully.

getting something on the books to record in Q4. So I'm not gonna really give any specifics on who that person is until we get closer and some of those details are more concrete. But what I can say is a conversation is happening and if I get this person on the podcast, it's going to be a game changer. and I'm really I already had a conversation with this person.

we're gonna dive into I will give you this hint, they are a billionaire. Okay, that's the I'll give you that one hint. This person's a billionaire. I had a conversation with them through message, a message on two things that I would like to talk about. One was their mindset and like basically kind of diving into like who they are as a person, and then two talking about systems and

and business and like what you need to do to be successful. So I asked which one they wanted to talk about and they said both. so I'm super excited about that because if I get on, I really I really like Sean Ryan's podcast. And I'm expecting this this episode to be longer. you know it it might be one of my longest episodes if this person is generous enough with their time. but I'd really like to do kind of like a Sean Ryan style.

format like where we really dive into like their childhood, what makes them who they are, what defining moments shape their mindset and why they do the things that they do, what made them who they are to be able to go out there and put the kind of value in the world where they create a billion dollar something that's worth a billion dollars, right? To bring value to a billion people. So

Branden Sewell (34:30.657)
That is super exciting. So I hope you guys will tune in. like I said, I I probably won't have more details on that, unfortunately, until the end of October when I have a follow-up conversation with them. But I'm pretty hopeful about it and optimistic. I have some connections with a mutual friend who has really put in a good word for me. and so it's looking pretty promising that I'll have them on the show.

at least sometime within the next six months or so. So super exciting times ahead. well I'm gonna bring this show to a close. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Off the Ladder podcast. I'll see you next time.