Chaos and Stories with Ariel Lawhon

Ever found yourself reminiscing about childhood antics, the ones that made you the resilient adult you are today? Join us as we wander through the whimsical yet wild tales of parenting and creativity with our special guest, New York Times bestselling author Ariel Lawhon. We kick things off recounting the day my daughter Sadie's adventurous spirit led to a missing front tooth, a story that perfectly encapsulates the unpredictable journey of raising kids. With Ariel's insights, we'll also peel back the mystique of the literary world, revealing the gritty determination it takes to claim a spot on the revered bestseller list.

Our conversation takes an intimate turn as we reflect on the books that shaped our childhoods and the comfort in revisiting these cherished narratives. Ariel shares her fascinating transition from Pennsylvania Dutch roots to Franklin, a testament to forging one's own path in the world of writing without the traditional roadmap. We'll explore the realities of homeschooling, the striking generational perspectives on life's simplicities, and the memories that linger from our younger years, painting a vivid picture of the roots that ground us.

Expect a colorful amalgamation of topics as we muse on the humor present in the chaos of life and the poignant lessons learned through marriage. We'll navigate the confluence of personal creativity with storytelling, tapping into the depth of character development against historical backdrops. Wrapping up, we'll delve into the spiritual threads that weave through our favorite biblical texts, teasing out the hope and challenges as we look towards the influence of the arts and spirituality in our lives. With laughter, shared recollections, and a touch of creative genius, this episode is an invitation to embrace the serendipity of our experiences.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

here. Well, sadie, when she was little, was like standing on the chair, she was two and and she fell and somehow knocked her front tooth clean out. No, didn't hurt anything else, somehow knocked her tooth out but didn't damage. You know what I mean. Like you'd think there'd be a bruise there, nothing, yeah, oh my gosh well, he'd killed it first well she had had hers rammed up in she didn't have it rammed up in.

Speaker 1 0:34

You can tell the story he was watching her and she rode her winnie the pooh car down the concrete steps and went forward and rammed the tooth up in. Well, we didn't know the tooth. I came home she was in bed and I went up to check.

Speaker 3 0:50

There's going to be more to this story. I just want you to know you're getting a version of it.

Speaker 1 0:54

And she had dried blood all over her, swollen. She looked like she'd been hit by a car and I was like is she asleep Asleep? I mean, we don't know how bad her head is injured. And I'm like, and he's on the phone and I'm like what happened? He's like, oh she, she hurt, wrecked her car.

Speaker 3 1:12

I put her to bed there's so much inaccuracy in that story that you guys just heard.

Speaker 1 1:18

Well, now I mean, here's the thing, there's nothing on.

Speaker 3 1:21

There's nothing untrue about what she just said.

Speaker 1 1:24

Okay, thank you.

Speaker 3 1:25

It's just missing so much plot line. What it sounds like is I watched my daughter drive her toy off the thing and then just put her to bed.

Speaker 4 1:37

She made it sound like the timeline was very short.

Speaker 1 1:40

You were on the phone.

Speaker 3 1:41

I had to do some radio liners. Sadie was playing under my feet. I'm doing these liners. I pushed her down the phone. I had to do some radio liners. Sadie was playing under my feet.

Speaker 1 1:47

I'm doing these liners. I pushed her down the steps.

Speaker 3 1:49

She drove her car out the door and then was crying and her lip was really swollen so I couldn't see her teeth Because they were gone. When she said she wanted her nook. So I gave her a popsicle to try to do swell, and then she said I really want my nook and blankie, so sure you can have it. And she fell asleep, probably because she was concussed, but she fell asleep here nor there.

Speaker 3 2:16

Hey everybody, welcome to the Gospel. According to Jeremy, I can already tell this is going to be a great episode. I'm here with, as always, jennifer and Ariel Lawhon. Yes, our friend of we, just figured this out. It's gotta be decades.

Speaker 2 2:28

That's a long time, I think 25 years.

Speaker 4 2:31

Can you hear her? Okay, I don't have my earphones on, but since Before I was married Sorry, speaking of teeth, long before you were married, I'm not the tooth out.

Speaker 2 2:39

Yes, because I was your sister's roommate.

Speaker 1 2:41

Yes, so we were one of. Well, my sister had three bridesmaids. Her two sisters and you.

Speaker 2 2:48

You made the cut. Who'd you walk?

Speaker 3 2:50

with. Wait, I was not in Janelle's wedding.

Speaker 1 2:54

No, what? Who did I walk with? You're shocked by this.

Speaker 2 2:57

I just realized I walked with.

Speaker 1 2:59

I don't remember who I even walked with. It had to have been one of Brian's friends?

Speaker 2 3:03

Yeah, I don't even know.

Speaker 1 3:03

I remember the dresses Might have been Kevin or something I remember. The dresses never got altered.

Speaker 2 3:10

They never got altered. They didn't, did they? They didn't. But you know what? They did not hurt our bodies or our feelings.

Speaker 1 3:15

They hurt my feelings bad and they hurt my feelings because it was like 900,000 degrees that day.

Speaker 2 3:21

You were fine.

Speaker 1 3:22

And those dresses were hot, they were very hot.

Speaker 3 3:27

Before we keep going with Ariel.

Speaker 1 3:29

Look at the positive spin you put on it.

Speaker 3 3:31

Before we keep going with Ariel, it might be good to let our listeners know who she is.

Speaker 1 3:36

She's just a random friend from 25 years ago. She's more than Janelle's old roommate.

Speaker 3 3:41

She's also a New York Times best-selling author of. Frozen River.

Speaker 1 3:46

Wow, and are other ones on there, this one actually.

Speaker 2 3:50

Here's the funny thing about publishing.

Speaker 3 3:52

Do it.

Speaker 2 3:52

Easily my most successful book to date.

Speaker 3 3:55

Okay.

Speaker 2 3:55

Did not hit the list. I hit the list three books ago with a novel called I Was Anastasia.

Speaker 3 4:01

Okay, oh, okay yes. Because I was looking at your bios and press releases last night and isn't it funny how they just say New York Times bestselling author.

Speaker 2 4:10

Oh, you get to keep it forever and.

Speaker 3 4:11

I was assuming it was Frozen River.

Speaker 2 4:13

Everybody does, because you get to keep it forever. Once you have it, they never take it away. How fun is that, isn't there some?

Speaker 4 4:18

weird rules around hitting the lid. I had another friend friend as an author that said you got to play it, just right, and there's like a lot of weird things that have to happen.

Speaker 2 4:27

There's some politics involved. It's like the principal's office for publishing.

Speaker 4 4:31

Really.

Speaker 2 4:31

Really, what does that mean? Well, so there are all kinds of lists, right, like, for instance the publisher's weekly list is an aggregate of sales, so it's ordered, one down who sold the most and they will give you numbers of actually how many it sold. Then you have the USA Today list, which is sort of like a little bit more loosey goosey. They don't really tell. They add in e-book sales, but not all of them. The New York Times bestsellers list, which is the list it's the one, yes Determined by an algorithm. That is proprietary information and they do not share. That's what I heard.

Speaker 4 5:07

Okay, that's weird it's not just science, like oh, you sold this many books and you made the list.

Speaker 2 5:12

Whatever it's, it's yeah and the thing is, nobody actually knows what the algorithm is. There are all these theories. You can do deep dives. What's?

Speaker 4 5:21

your theory? Do you have one like? There's some pre-release theories?

Speaker 2 5:24

So pre-release is anything that sells prior to publication day gets counted for first week sales, so that's why everyone is always like pre-order, pre-order, because you can have six months worth of pre-orders and they all count to your first week. I would guess, and I don't know. I think it's a combination of sales. I think it's a combination of sales. I think it's a combination of where those books are selling. They don't want all of the sales to come from amazon.

Speaker 2 5:49

They want amazon they want independent bookstores. They want barnes and noble, they want target walmart. They want to see your books selling at a certain level.

Speaker 3 5:58

This is not just joel ostein selling all of his books to his congregation. They do not like it okay.

Speaker 2 6:04

Yeah, they don't like it. When a random bookstore in Topeka will sell 3,000 copies, then they feel like it was.

Speaker 3 6:13

That is a lot for Topeka.

Speaker 4 6:15

That's an example, right A lot of intelligent people, a lot of readers there. Though, if you're selling, 3,000 copies in Topeka.

Speaker 3 6:21

You should move there.

Speaker 2 6:21

You are on it, topeka.

Speaker 3 6:22

You should move there.

Speaker 2 6:23

You are on it If you're selling that, but at Topeka. I don't think you're paying for a beer ever at Topeka You're selling three-something copies of your book. They're looking at all of it and they don't explain any of it. And it's fine. At the end of the day, it's a really great thing to get, and it's like getting the nod and then you get to keep the nod forever.

Speaker 1 6:42

Love it. How nice.

Speaker 2 6:43

That's cool, yeah, congratulations. It's like a gold record or something they can never take it away. Yeah.

Speaker 3 6:48

Yeah Well, congratulations. Thank you, it's fun to know you, but it's also weird because I don't think of you as best-selling author, ariel.

Speaker 2 7:00

Lohan, I don't think of me as that either. I think of what's your maiden name.

Speaker 3 7:03

Allison, I still remember you as Ariel Allison.

Speaker 2 7:05

Yeah, and no one thought it was real. It was such a pretty name. People used to think I made it up. It is a pretty name and you married a guy named Ashley.

Speaker 3 7:12

I married a guy named Ashley All these weird names.

Speaker 2 7:14

And I had no girls. I got four boys and no girls and Allison was. That would have been so good. Is that good? I know Bummer Grandbabies. Then they have to actually want to name somebody after me and I've learned A. It's never going to be my first name, because Ariel is a name you have to commit to and Little Mermaid ruined it.

Speaker 4 7:35

I was 12 when that came out and there was a boy in my class named Eric. Oh, that's what he liked Horrible he wasn't cute, he was not cute.

Speaker 1 7:44

He was horrible. He didn't look like Prince Eric I can't sing.

Speaker 2 7:45

I don't have red hair. It was never going to work in my favor, but my mom got the name from the Bible in Shakespeare, so it's got this really pretty backstory that was ruined.

Speaker 3 7:55

Wait a minute. The what the Bible.

Speaker 2 7:59

The Bible. Woe to you, the city where David dwelt. Woe to you, Ariel. Ariel, the city where David dwelt, you shall drink and never be drunk. I believe Isaiah 64, and I always thought he proved that wrong, poor Jerusalem.

Speaker 4 8:15

Woe to you. So you can really handle your liquor, you can just drink and drink you know, I can handle my liquor, actually Prophetic.

Speaker 3 8:21

What's it like to get Ariel drunk?

Speaker 2 8:23

I don't know actually, she can drink and drink and never be drunk.

Speaker 1 8:26

It's not possible.

Speaker 3 8:28

You guys did great. Well, you know what's weird, I don't know. Your older two kids.

Speaker 2 8:31

What are their names? London and Parker. They're in college.

Speaker 3 8:34

Okay, london Parker, marshall Riggs Riglet.

Speaker 1 8:38

Riglet we call.

Speaker 3 8:39

Oh, I love it.

Speaker 1 8:40

So Well, you've got to explain that a little bit.

Speaker 3 8:42

What? Well, okay, so our kids are friends.

Speaker 1 8:45

Yes.

Speaker 3 8:45

Which has been a really fun reconnection.

Speaker 2 8:47

Right.

Speaker 3 8:49

Sadie Clare and her cousin Joshua and Levi, and then all of their neighborhood boys. They're all in the neighborhood, they're all part of a group text and they all have names.

Speaker 2 8:59

They nickname each other.

Speaker 3 9:00

It's so funny, but you know it's funny is I never knew Sadie's nickname. I don't know it. The Enemy, it's the Enemy. Well, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Speaker 1 9:10

Only one kid called her the Enemy, but her real nickname on the group chat is Ginga.

Speaker 3 9:15

Ginga.

Speaker 1 9:15

Ginga okay.

Speaker 2 9:18

So, Riggs is a paperclip right.

Speaker 1 9:21

I think. But he's Riglet. What is Marshall? Marshall is Marshall doesn't have one. Oh, we call him Big Swole at home. Oh, they do call him Big Swole.

Speaker 3 9:28

I keep hitting that Well, it's well-earned.

Speaker 2 9:30

It is well-earned, but it's how we mock him relentlessly.

Speaker 1 9:33

Because he works out a lot.

Speaker 2 9:34

Well, okay, you got to understand. He's six foot two.

Speaker 3 9:42

He is the teeth we paid so much money for those teeth.

Speaker 2 9:45

Okay, so you bought them.

Speaker 1 9:46

I was going to say because they are amazing. Yeah, but he's also just a good-looking kid.

Speaker 2 9:50

Well, he got my teeth, which are these enormous teeth that you don't grow into until you grow into your person. Those big chiclets, you don't want little teeth. So he finally grew into his teeth and we paid for good orthodontia and there was a whole oh. So the reason we call him. We will not hear that word again.

Speaker 1 10:10

I've never heard it before.

Speaker 3 10:12

Last podcast we recorded was with Hutch and we were talking about Gen Z words.

Speaker 4 10:18

They were not these words, no no, I've been trying to work those words into this episode.

Speaker 1 10:23

No wait, I use op already.

Speaker 4 10:25

No one heard it, but I threw it in there.

Speaker 1 10:27

We ignored it.

Speaker 4 10:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1 10:28

Because we're not Gen Z you didn't know what I was saying Right over our heads.

Speaker 2 10:30

Well, anyway, we call him Big Swole because-.

Speaker 4 10:32

How old is Big Swole?

Speaker 2 10:33

He's 16.

Speaker 1 10:41

And he started working out.

Speaker 3 10:41

Mean Don't you be getting any ideas?

Speaker 2 10:43

Well, he started working out a couple years ago and, God bless him, it shows he's at the gym right now. He texted me when he got home. I'm going to go to the gym.

Speaker 3 10:52

Is he a gym rat?

Speaker 2 10:53

He is not a gym rat. He is not even a fitness enthusiast. He is how do you describe it? He loves trying new things, experimenting with new things.

Speaker 3 11:07

He cuts hair. We did cut my hair last week.

Speaker 2 11:09

Well, the other day I looked out my window and he was dangling upside down from a tree, doing upside down pushups with gymnastic rings and a backpack full of bricks on his back. As one does To exercise some muscle under his ribs. I don't understand any of it. He does To exercise some muscle under his ribs. I don't understand any of it. The point is though, because he has seen results, he will stop and preen in front of any shiny surface oh nice.

Speaker 1 11:34

And so he'll be like, and we mock him.

Speaker 2 11:37

Yes, we mock him mercilessly. He actually kind of loves it. He laughs, he'll get red.

Speaker 1 11:42

How sweet.

Speaker 3 11:43

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 11:44

It's nice that he is telling you things. It seems like you two are close, you know sometimes I can't get him to stop talking.

Speaker 2 11:50

Aww.

Speaker 1 11:51

I don't know if everyone has those kids.

Speaker 2 11:57

He in particular. He got all of my words, all of them, and all of my questions, and this was, I don't know, five or six years ago. You didn't have time to answer the first question before he'd answered a second question, and I remember putting him to bed one night. He's like Mom, Mom, mom. I was like Marshall, you have one, question One one, you get one, and then I'm leaving and he goes. Where do black holes come from? An easy one, just an easy one. And I said the never-ending stream of your words.

Speaker 3 12:27

You're making them as we speak, that's what we call you when you leave the room oh that's great that's sweet he is a great kid we were. If you're one of my instagram followers, you my story. A couple of weeks ago was teenage boy cutting Sadie's hair.

Speaker 1 12:44

Yes.

Speaker 3 12:44

And then he. So here's the thing he offered to do it and it worked. You know, he was actually pretty good. He showed up with a kit and so he Sadie, which is a Sadie's 16 year old girl's. Pretty big deal. You let the neighbor boy cut your hair and and they did a good job. Jennifer did around the boob Cause we wanted to make sure.

Speaker 1 13:04

Well, we pulled it around front and there were some pieces that were longer. I was like I'll get these Big swole calm down. Yeah, I'll get these.

Speaker 3 13:12

But when he opened up his kit. Like you know how, when you're at the barber shop, you hear like, like his scissors started doing that, like, and he did like the thumb finger. I was like, oh, he's legit. Oh so I said, hey, while you're here, will you maybe clean up the back of and he did.

Speaker 2 13:35

He did a great job and then he ended up doing joshua's and uh and riglets. Yeah, okay, yeah, he he loves and I paid him 10 bucks oh nice, he never does it for free he sent me it right back oh yeah, sweet, that is sweet.

Speaker 2 13:45

So he will text the guy that cuts my hair, who's cut my hair forever and be like Matt. Do you have any more videos about how to do a fade or what scissors do I need? So he's really smart and he gets fixated on these things. So one of his current fixations other than working out is cutting hair. Nice, one of his current fixations other than working out is cutting hair Nice, so I'm not letting him near mine.

Speaker 3 14:08

Oh okay, no. So I want to strike a careful balance in this episode because I don't like when we interview people. I feel like that makes for a boring podcast, but I do think you're a pretty big deal.

Speaker 1 14:21

She's a huge deal and it's kind of like I want people. It's so funny that she's here, I know.

Speaker 3 14:27

In our bonyest bonyest room, we just ended up with you.

Speaker 2 14:30

Almost said bonyest, you're a pretty big deal. It's so funny? I don't feel that way, but thank you, well, right.

Speaker 1 14:36

I wanted to say something about Riggs and how they named Riggs. It's such a funny story.

Speaker 3 14:42

I don't know it.

Speaker 2 14:43

The best story in all the world. It really is great.

Speaker 1 14:47

Okay so when you.

Speaker 3 14:48

And join us next week.

Speaker 1 14:49

Yes.

Speaker 3 14:51

We'll just fade it out right there. Yeah, and we're back.

Speaker 4 14:54

We're back.

Speaker 2 14:56

So by the time you get to your fourth boy, the fact is, you've gone through all the names you love, right? You've gone through all of them, and I happen to be married to a name vetoer, not a name contributor.

Speaker 3 15:07

This man, Ashley, is a vetoer.

Speaker 2 15:10

Oh yeah, I knew a kid in third grade who picked his nose, who had that name. No way, it's hard to get anything on the list to start with, so by the time I get to the fourth kid, I got nothing and he's not helping.

Speaker 3 15:20

Did you know you were having a boy?

Speaker 2 15:29

Yes, not helping. Did you know you were having a boy? Yes, okay, yeah, I don't like surprises. So you found out.

Speaker 3 15:31

I'll tell you that story next about how it's a good story too. It has worse words than the story I was telling you earlier. Well, did we? I mean, I don't know when we started rolling, but ariel goes something about shit and she goes. Are we allowed to say that on this podcast? I was like yeah, I think you're safe.

Speaker 2 15:40

Yeah, well, realm okay, good like it, but yeah anyway, six days or so before riggs is born, we're sitting there early morning drinking coffee and ashley, my husband, out of the blue, goes I think we should name him riggs, and I was like that's a, you contributed something, well done. Yeah, that's a great name, but I was like, ah, kind of a dude name. Though. What about colby riggs? Because colby was the number two name, the first three times, and I thought if colby can almost make it three times, it deserves a spot, right, colby?

Speaker 1 16:16

riggs and he's like let's do it okay.

Speaker 2 16:18

Six days later, go to the hospital. He's born name is on the birth certificate. My husband, riggs, is 15. My husband has never said the word Colby out loud, has never called him Colby. He just went straight to Riggs. He got it on the birth certificate.

Speaker 3 16:30

Oh, his name is Colby Riggs.

Speaker 1 16:31

Yes, I did not know this yes.

Speaker 2 16:34

And then it just kind of happened and a friend of mine was like whatever happened to Colby? I thought you named him Colby.

Speaker 1 16:39

I'm like I did, but he never says it and I can't call him one thing, and his dad called him something else, so I guess we're calling him rigs, I don't know.

Speaker 2 16:45

Anyway, six months later we are at this barbecue and ashley's holding rigs and a buddy of his is like hey man, cute kid, what's his name? And ashley goes rigs. And the guy goes cool, like lethal weapon, rigs and murtaugh and ashley's like yep. And I am across the yard and I went. You named our kid after a male Gibson character and they all, like they, just start laughing. I got bamboozled.

Speaker 4 17:13

You didn't tell me that's amazing.

Speaker 2 17:16

Okay, the problem is, you look at him and he could never, ever be anything other than a Riggs.

Speaker 1 17:21

He's so cute. He's Riglet, he is Riglet forever. And he's so adorable and he's so adorable and he's so sweet he is actually really sweet.

Speaker 2 17:30

We've had a lot of kids right, so sometimes they're sweet, sometimes they're not, sometimes they grow out of it.

Speaker 1 17:34

These two are still sweet.

Speaker 3 17:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2 17:36

I'm just hoping they stay that way. Ours are sweet too.

Speaker 3 17:40

I mean, hutch is 20, and like the past two or three nights, it's been like 1130, and he's flopped down on our bed and he goes. You want to rub my back, mama?

Speaker 4 17:49

Oh, I know, and I'm like it's kind of late, buddy.

Speaker 3 17:51

And he just lays there, you know.

Speaker 2 17:53

My almost 21-year-old. He's going to kill me.

Speaker 3 17:56

He'll never listen to this. I don't think he's one of our listeners.

Speaker 2 18:01

To this day. He'll come home from college, he'll put his head in my lap and he'll ask me to rub his back. So I guess they're all sweet. They're just really sweet in different ways, Right? And then number two is the wild one, Really. He wants to mountain bike and hike and has every adventure that can be had.

Speaker 3 18:15

Does your mom still baby you? She was just in town. I met her.

Speaker 4 18:20

No, I mean, my mom is more of like the southern, like very, she's a caretaker, but it's more like you're not feeling. Well, let me cook you something. Yeah, it wasn't super nurturing in that regard, Always take care of us. But I was actually not feeling well when she was here and I could tell she really wanted to care for me.

Speaker 2 18:43

Dode on you.

Speaker 4 18:44

Yeah, exactly the funny part is she didn't cook because I was sick. Like like well, mom, the whole rest of the family, because my kids love it when mimi comes to town, because she's a great cook, like well, everyone else has got to eat just because I'm sick, you know whatever, but because I was out, she was like, no, forget it, I'm not doing it sweet yeah yeah, so she's nurturing, but in her yeah.

Speaker 3 19:02

My mom will, she'll rub our backs. Still, yeah, Like me and you like. If she's here, she'll say okay, who wants a back rub?

Speaker 1 19:09

Yeah, I love it. I'm going up to visit mom.

Speaker 3 19:13

Not just mom, but I'm going to visit next weekend by myself.

Speaker 2 19:18

That's fun.

Speaker 3 19:19

And I haven't really done that.

Speaker 1 19:30

But what's funny is she has a broken wrist and you said to her are you going to be able to do it on me? I I did say how will you go on me with a broken wrist? But she's got another hand, she can rub your back and cook for you.

Speaker 3 19:38

Um egg in a nest, the. Uh, I pulled up something of yours. I didn't want it to be like super current, so I went back and pulled up something of yours. I didn't want it to be like super current, so I went back and pulled up something 10 years ago.

Speaker 3 19:46

These are your words my mother read to me by the light of the kerosene lantern. Do you remember writing this? Most people don't believe me when I tell them this, but it's true. I grew up in a small hippie town in Northern New Mexico in a home with no running water or electricity. My parents, descendants in a long line of cattle ranchers and cotton farmers, choose to abandon the great state of texas. Yes, texas probably gets on my nerves and forge their own path in the turbulent 70s.

Speaker 3 20:12

We're nostalgic about it now. My siblings and I, the wood burning stove and the cistern and the chickens in the outhouse. Outhouse, like you, went out to pee there was no door.

Speaker 2 20:23

You learn not to need to pee at night. It's a whole thing Really. I love this.

Speaker 1 20:28

You train yourself.

Speaker 3 20:29

I mean, I like to write too, and then I read this and I'm like forget it. Nevermind the way the light hits the Mesa at four o'clock in the afternoon, running barefoot through the sage brush picking Indian paintbrush. Monsoons in summer, blizzards in winter. We once found a cannonball buried in the front yard, a relic from the old stagecoach road that passed in front of our house and lost it again in a fortnight my mom's still mad about it.

Speaker 3 20:53

It's quaint and fascinating, but it's the sort of childhood you remember fondly because it's in the distant past. Later on, you said in the absence of a television, I discovered CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien, LMM Montgomery and Agatha Christie. This is what happens if you don't have a TV.

Speaker 1 21:09

Exactly Stuff like this.

Speaker 3 21:11

That's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, this is only half of it.

Nostalgic Reflections on Childhood and Beliefs

Speaker 1 21:13

I'm going to turn the air on a little bit.

Speaker 3 21:14

I cried myself to sleep after reading. Don't make it warmer.

Speaker 1 21:18

I'm hot, I beg you, you know what it's like to be hot. You told me 64 degrees in here, babe.

Speaker 2 21:24

That's perfect. This is my house, except in the reverse. My husband is always freezing me out and I am always turning it up, and then we have arguments and I have to be like I pay the electric bill too. Well, we don't want to freeze out our guest.

Speaker 3 21:37

No, it's fine. I cry myself to sleep after reading when the Red Fern Grows. It's the first book I ever threw against the wall. Later I had a brief but passionate literary love affair with Piers Anthony and his magical Xanth Xanth.

Speaker 1 21:50

Xanth.

Speaker 3 21:52

I believe for years that these authors and their stories were mine, and I felt an irrational rage when I learned that other children love them as well.

Speaker 4 21:59

Man. That's cool, ariel. Do you talk to Ashley like this?

Speaker 2 22:03

I talk to everybody like that. That. That's cool. Ariel, do you talk to?

Speaker 4 22:05

Ashley, like this, I talk to everybody. Like that Are you? That's naturally. Like that's very. Easy for you Not easy, but that's your natural.

Speaker 3 22:11

If I talk to you like that, how sexy it would be Like, hey, let me show you my magical I think that's, that is how.

Speaker 4 22:18

That's how you talk when you're on your On your medicine at night.

Speaker 1 22:21

My magical. You just don't remember it. Oh yeah, Exactly.

Speaker 3 22:26

Okay, so no TV.

Speaker 1 22:28

No TV Of all of look, no bathroom and no door.

Speaker 3 22:32

What would you rather have? Running water or a TV?

Speaker 1 22:37

I don't know, they're kind of the.

Speaker 2 22:38

They're kind of listen, you'd rather have running water.

Speaker 4 22:41

Running water.

Speaker 2 22:43

You can take. You can take my word for it, yeah.

Speaker 3 22:46

Do you?

Speaker 2 22:47

have a TV now, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 22:48

We have too many TVs, so this is the distant past.

Speaker 2 22:51

This is the distant past. Okay, you'll have to remind me where you found that.

Speaker 3 22:57

I found this on a post of yours from 2014. Facebook.

Speaker 2 23:00

Probably a blog, okay.

Speaker 3 23:01

Like a meanderings kind of Facebook, probably a blog, okay.

Speaker 2 23:03

I don't I mean Like a meanderings kind of. Yeah.

Speaker 3 23:07

Like this. Okay, so this seems.

Speaker 2 23:09

So that is written for something. This seems dreamy, so I don't talk exactly like that.

Speaker 3 23:13

But this also paints it as a very romantic.

Speaker 1 23:16

Yes, like.

Speaker 3 23:17

Yeah, growing up with no running water. You know reading books. Okay, so you know reading books.

Speaker 2 23:21

Okay, so there's two things right. Without that, I would not be who I am, Period. I'd be a different person. I would be unrecognizable as the person that I am right now. And I don't want to be anybody other than who I am right now.

Speaker 3 23:36

Well, and when we met you, you weren't the no running. You know what I mean. You weren't the weird girl that Janelle's living. It was like it just seemed normal, you weren't Janelle's weird roommate.

Speaker 1 23:49

We didn't know about that is what he's saying you just seemed like just anybody else.

Speaker 2 23:53

That was my life, but it wasn't the life of most of the people that I knew. I mean, I was an outlier even in that part of the country, so I can adapt right.

Speaker 3 24:02

Were you homeschooled.

Speaker 2 24:09

I was homeschooled. Well actually my mother quit homeschooling with me because I'm a lot and apparently not very teachable.

Speaker 3 24:12

Are you the?

Speaker 2 24:13

youngest. I'm the second oldest. There's a lot of us. So, okay, my mother's not going to listen to this either, so I can say this she's living.

Speaker 3 24:20

Yes, okay.

Speaker 2 24:22

My mother will joke that she quit homeschooling with me because I was hard to teach and I homeschooled for a while. I some kids are hard to teach. It's a real thing. The real reason is she quit homeschooling so she could send us to public school, because public school provided two meals a day oh yeah so the flip side of this really nostalgic thing. That's pretty like the shine in a soap bubble. Right, right, that's the past, right Is that? If you grow up that way, the only two words.

Speaker 3 24:49

The shine on a soap bubble.

Speaker 2 24:51

Yes.

Speaker 3 24:53

I mean that's not fair. Can I use that? Take it. Can I use that? Run with?

Speaker 2 24:57

it by all means.

Speaker 3 24:58

He's going to write it on his paper, write it down, don't write on the plot. That's like a whole chapter.

Speaker 2 25:04

the shine, go ahead, keep going the only two words that can describe your life, if you actually grow up like this, are abject poverty. That's just the reality of it, and so if you grow up like that, you realize really quickly no one is coming to save you period.

Speaker 3 25:20

Did you know you were poor?

Speaker 2 25:22

yeah, okay, yeah, you still it was.

Speaker 4 25:24

Can't walk barefoot to the outhouse in the middle of the night and not know you're.

Speaker 3 25:27

Well, I mean, you're living in. I mean were they hippies, your parents?

Speaker 2 25:30

They get really upset. My mom doesn't like that term, but my dad went to Haight-Ashbury looking for the beatniks because the hippies didn't exist yet.

Speaker 1 25:39

Okay.

Speaker 2 25:39

And he tell us when we were growing up that if you remember the 60s, you didn't actually experience them.

Speaker 3 25:44

Okay, I don't know how much he remembered.

Speaker 2 25:47

Okay, he also had some colorful things to say about Woodstock. My mother doesn't like the term hippie, she thinks it's gross. And she's not gross, she's very smart and she's an artist. She's really well put together.

Speaker 3 26:03

Showered.

Speaker 2 26:05

Yes, she does not smell like patchouli, which, to this day, is the worst smell on earth to me yeah I hate it because it was used to like why mask body odor? Okay, it's like ketchup for the body okay, I was gonna say do we mask?

Speaker 4 26:20

ketchup was invented to it that was very rotten. Yeah, that was very poetic in and of itself, ketchup for the body.

Speaker 2 26:25

There you go there, you go.

Speaker 4 26:27

Shine on soap bubble ketchup for the body. Exactly Same thing.

Speaker 2 26:31

All of which is I left home at 16. I got out of Dodge, I left, so by the time I met you guys, I was that was four years later. I'd been on my own for four years on my own for four years.

Speaker 3 26:41

But when you say when you left, did you run away or did you tell them, I'm leaving?

Speaker 2 26:44

Oh, they knew I was leaving, so my older brother was in the military at Fort Campbell and I just went to live with him.

Speaker 3 26:49

Okay.

Speaker 2 26:50

And then, through a convoluted series of events, he was dating a girl in Franklin and so he would come to church down here and I would come to church down here with him. And then there was a family at that church that needed a babysitter, and so I went to babysit for them. And we always just joke that I came to babysit one day and never left Okay.

Speaker 3 27:09

So, I was about 17 by then. Yeah, is that fellowship.

Speaker 2 27:12

Before fellowship Okay, pre-fellowship. So you guys were Christians when you were younger.

Speaker 3 27:16

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 27:17

So the evolution of my dad. Specifically, he was cattle rancher, military police, hippie, christian, so that was his sort of so he came to Christ in his late 20s, my mom shortly after they met. So they were believers my entire childhood. But it was the 70s version of Christianity where you're not letting the church, where you don't look right, where you don't smell right and you don't fit in anywhere.

Speaker 3 27:45

Jesus movement.

Speaker 2 27:46

Yeah, very much Jesus movement stuff. And they got asked to leave so many churches that they stopped going altogether and they would have occasional house meetings, but there was never a congregation, there was never a building, there was never what we think of as church today we're heading back there.

Speaker 3 28:00

Yeah, I mean we're on our way back. Yeah, I mean last week we had hutch on the podcast and he and sadie do go to church, but not the kind that we would like. They like small church in a house, like they're okay with. I mean hutch goes to a like a like a house group kind of oh right they're like small, you know they don't. It's not sexy to them to have a big. Yeah, whatever.

Speaker 2 28:26

Yeah, um no good Full circle moment then. It always that always happens, right.

Speaker 3 28:31

So how did? How did you go from like I wait, where in New Mexico?

Speaker 2 28:37

Taos so.

Speaker 3 28:39

Oh, taos, it's beautiful, it is beautiful. Oh my gosh, is it near Los Alamos.

Speaker 2 28:45

Uh, it is beautiful. Oh my gosh, is it near Los Alamos? Okay, this is geography. Math and geography are not things I'm good at.

Speaker 3 28:48

Well, you did quit school.

Speaker 2 28:50

Taos is here, los Alamos is here, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 28:53

Wait a minute. So you left home at 16. You quit school, Kind of sort of.

Speaker 3 28:58

Sounds like school quit you.

Speaker 2 29:00

Well, the very short version is the way that high school credits worked in New Mexico. At that time is at the end of my junior year, when I left, I had enough credits to graduate in Tennessee, so I didn't ever actually have to do my senior year. I was able to homeschool and take just a couple of random classes and skip it.

Pennsylvania Dutch Amish Literary Journey

Speaker 3 29:25

Basically, okay, classes and okay, skip it. Basically, yeah, okay. So this, the life that you're describing, uh, having. My family is pennsylvania, dutch amish. Now, mom never was, I never was, but I mean, those are our people, so that doesn't sound that weird, you know, it just sounds no electricity, you know right, I mean it was generators and windmills.

Speaker 2 29:45

I mean to me it's normal. I sometimes have to remind myself I mean I live in Franklin right. Talk about the shine on a soap bubble. It's a whole different kind of thing, but also the industry in which I work. There is a path typically that you take to be published, and it involves a lot of school and a lot of degrees and does it really? Yeah, I mean even in, even in fiction yeah, most, not most, a good percentage of people will get their mfa, so so how did?

Speaker 1 30:15

yeah, how did that work?

Speaker 3 30:16

I don't even mf, mf, masters of fine arts and literature um, I did it anyway.

Speaker 2 30:24

I taught myself I mean this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do this. I really do have the only job I've ever wanted, and if I'd wanted to be a brain surgeon yeah, this would not have worked.

Speaker 3 30:34

Yeah, um, we were talking about that before the podcast started. You you know. You said I do this thing. I'm saying I'm so thankful for music and words because, yeah, it's what I do. Like, my father-in-law taught me how to hang a picture. It was just a blank landscape of my brain that part is just a wide open space.

Speaker 1 31:00

The construction part.

Speaker 3 31:02

Yeah, I mean the math part. I have no use for it.

Speaker 2 31:05

I can't do anything past long division.

Speaker 3 31:07

Yeah, if you've seen homework that these kids bring home. I was like it's not. Sadie would be like can you help me? I'd be like no, I cannot Sorry. I cannot do any of this stuff how many books in.

Speaker 2 31:21

Are you as far as like published fiction?

Speaker 1 31:30

So this is my sixth I co-wrote one

Speaker 3 31:31

a year or so ago with two other authors.

Speaker 2 31:31

So this is fifth on my own. That's not helene. No, it's called when we had wings okay, helene was before that yes, okay, um very fun read.

Speaker 1 31:40

It's a fun read the real name is not helene, isn't it code name helene?

Speaker 3 31:44

I know books by their main character yes. Like well, I callame Helene. I know books by their main character yes.

Speaker 2 31:48

Well, I call all of my books by their main character. This is Martha.

Speaker 3 31:51

Okay.

Speaker 2 31:51

The last one is Nancy. Okay, codename Helene is Nancy. The one before that is Anastasia.

Speaker 3 31:57

Okay.

Speaker 2 31:57

The one before that is just the Hindenburg book, because there were lots of main characters, um, and then the one before that man you need to meet, scott williamson I told scott williamson about her book yeah because he's a hymden bird.

Speaker 1 32:08

I mean, he's a freak about it he's a I've solved the mystery have you, I have. I haven't read the book.

Speaker 2 32:15

Yet I'm pretty sure, 99% sure I solved it. Okay, what?

Speaker 1 32:17

is what is it? It's in the book. I gotta read it. I'm not big reader, surprise surprise.

Speaker 2 32:23

people always feel like they have to apologize when they say that to me. I got to read it, it's in the book. I'm not a big reader.

Speaker 1 32:27

Surprise, surprise People always feel like they have to apologize when they say that to me.

Speaker 3 32:30

I'm not now.

Speaker 1 32:30

You're reading a book. I'm trying to read a book a month. This was my first one of the year.

Speaker 3 32:34

And you loved it. I loved it, did you?

Speaker 1 32:37

buy it for mom. I loved it. Huh, did you buy it?

Speaker 3 32:39

for mom. I mean, you told people about it.

Speaker 1 32:41

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I bought it for your mom.

Speaker 3 32:43

What was it today show like?

Speaker 1 32:46

It's Good Morning America.

Speaker 2 32:47

Good morning it was so much fun. Okay, so here's my story. George Stephan no, it was. Gio Benitez interviewed me that day. So here's the funny story. With all of this and nobody believes me when I say this I swear, it's true I didn't think anybody was going to read this book. That's crazy. I've done this a long time, and so sometimes you write a book and sometimes you write the book, but most of them are not the book.

Speaker 2 33:11

They're just a book and I've written several. Most of mine have just been a book. It's part of it, right. If, like, if you sign up for this as your job. It's this.

Speaker 1 33:19

You hope it's this. You wrote your first book. It got a lot of attention.

Speaker 2 33:23

Yes, it did well, but that doesn't mean it sold a ton, so there's a difference in publishing.

Speaker 3 33:29

You surely know this. From music too, there's a difference between attention and sales. It's different, though, because everybody in this town understands, even if they're not in the music business, they understand the music business. So if somebody would say, hey, if you heard Drew Powell's record, I mean it's and I'd be like, oh yeah, well, that makes sense. But when you, when you wrote that book, people were like, hey, I, it's legit good. It was like you knew a writer and you're like wait a minute, what?

Speaker 1 33:55

It was in People Magazine, your first book, and thinking, oh my gosh, what is happening? Ariel's like big time.

Speaker 2 34:03

So that is having a very, very good publisher. That's a good publicity department that is having the backing and the support of your publisher.

Speaker 1 34:13

So what I mean by a?

Speaker 2 34:14

book versus the book is there, are there are books that publish and do well, and then there are books that kind of take over and they become a groundswell. So the only one prior to this that I had that was a groundswell was I, was Anastasia, and that's the one that hit the New York Times bestseller list.

Speaker 3 34:29

Okay.

Speaker 2 34:30

So I thought I mean I really didn't think no one's going to read this. And the reason I thought I mean I really didn't think no one's going to read this and the reason I thought that is I take you 200 years back in time. You would be astonished at the number of people who will not read a book if it doesn't have electricity.

Speaker 3 34:43

Really I hate period pieces. Yes and I won't watch the movies.

Speaker 2 34:47

See, it's a real thing.

Speaker 1 34:48

It makes me insane. I love old.

Speaker 3 34:50

She'll pull up like it'll be somebody in a bonnet and I'm like, come on babe.

Speaker 4 34:55

That's Jamie too. I'm like you're kidding me.

Speaker 3 34:57

Good.

Speaker 2 34:58

Lord, I purposefully did not put bonnets in this book, even though, she probably wore them in real life, because I was not going to bonnet her Well there is a romanticizing of whatever this kind of like and I'm like babe.

Speaker 3 35:08

I'm not sure how long you would last back then.

Speaker 1 35:12

No, but we know she could survive. She did it.

Speaker 2 35:15

I'm here with a cockroach after the apocalypse.

Speaker 1 35:17

But she didn't choose it. No, but she could do it.

Speaker 3 35:19

I can do it, but look at her life now she lives in Franklin, tennessee, the tip of the soap bubble.

Speaker 1 35:24

Yes, yes it's that pink part up at the top. It's the shiniest part of the soap bubble, that little thing on the bubble, you know that little like that little, the little window pane, are you saying it's?

Speaker 4 35:36

the bubble nipple, the bubble, the nipple of the bubble, bubble, nipple.

Speaker 3 35:41

Let me see.

Speaker 1 35:42

Get your own pen.

Speaker 2 35:43

It's the little square in the shine right.

Speaker 1 35:45

No, it's the window pane, like so you've got the bubble Window pane is such a better way of saying it. Window pane yes, that Wow the igloo Bubbles much.

Speaker 4 36:00

That is a nipple on the bubble, that's the nipple of the bubble. That's what Franklin is A nipple on the bubble, a nipple on the bubble.

Speaker 2 36:04

My bubble doesn't have a nipple.

Speaker 3 36:05

It's got a window pane. Oh, the nipple on the bubble.

Speaker 4 36:08

What's Columbia, then you guys should partner up. You could write and you could do all the.

Speaker 1 36:12

Drawings. Yes, I'm so up you could write and you could do all the for your next book.

Speaker 3 36:15

Have them, because let's do a children's book. That's clearly a soap on butcher paper they won't let me do children's books. I have to do the big, heavy grown-up books but anyways, oh so there are some people who won't read a book they won't read a book if it doesn't have electricity.

Speaker 2 36:28

and look, there are some hard things in this book. There's a murder, there's a rape trial there, it's winter, it's winter the whole time and it's cold and you never get warm in the whole book. You never get warm, these poor people. So I had to do this. Look, you do this mercenary analysis every time you sit down to write a book and it's what are the problems? Here are the problems with this book, and I do it every book.

Speaker 2 36:57

This is why no one's going to read this book. It's not going to sell, yeah, well, this is why I won't do a good job writing it and this is why no one's going to read it. And I list them all out. And it's all of these really honest, brutal reasons why it's going to be a hard task for me or a hard sell for the reader. And then the job is I either have to, I have to tackle each of those things individually and either make them irrelevant or make them the strength of the book, and then you just have to commit to it. You have to own it. Still, you don't know how it's going to land with people in the real world.

Speaker 2 37:21

And so I just assumed well, they can't all be the book, this will just be a book. And then I was like, oh, this is great. Since no one's going to read it, I'm just going to tell the truth about everything. I'm going to tell the truth about long marriages and having a ton of kids.

Speaker 1 37:36

Their marriage in this book is so good. I love it.

Speaker 3 37:39

So is it a movie yet?

Speaker 2 37:41

No, I've been told it's a complete non-starter Like no one will even touch it Really.

Speaker 1 37:45

I could picture the whole thing. I want to punch people. You're punching shadows.

Speaker 3 37:55

You said the mercenary list. Is this an actual thing? Like you do go. This is why it's not going to work.

Speaker 2 37:59

I've done it with every single novel, because that sounds a little like my, like my actual life my thought process like

Speaker 3 38:05

this is why no one likes me. This is why I'm such a screw up. This is it's yours really sad like if I have a mole, she'll be like. This is why you're dying of cancer. This is what this mole.

Speaker 2 38:15

Well, I do that with moles because my dad did die of cancer from a mole, I'm so sorry. Oh really, what are the chances?

Speaker 1 38:20

Okay, you never say that, no what are the fucking chances? I don't think I've ever said it. I'm not offended clearly it's all fine, but what are the so?

Speaker 2 38:31

minuscule. They wanted to fly him around and let him be a medical experiment. Really, that's what the chances are? Yeah, it doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 38:35

I'm not even going to be on this podcast if she's going to knock over my camera.

Speaker 4 38:38

Well, you just really said something pretty insulting. That was not insulting.

Speaker 2 38:43

I talk with my hands. That's why things are getting. It was not insulting, but it's just crazy.

Speaker 1 38:48

Anyway.

Speaker 2 38:48

So I just decided I was going to tell the truth about everything that mattered to me and about all the things that were hard. What it's like to be a woman in the world. What it's like to be a woman in midlife who's watching her kids grow up and leave, when the biggest job of your life has been raising children.

Speaker 4 39:04

That's why you're sad. It's because of this book. Yeah, that was her sadness earlier.

Speaker 1 39:09

Yeah, we were talking about our kids growing up.

Speaker 3 39:11

You know, I want you to keep going.

Speaker 1 39:14

I love that about her. I felt like I just loved her. We love her.

Speaker 2 39:21

This book taught me people want the truth. They want you to just say it, the thing we're all thinking right, just say it, and she says it.

Speaker 3 39:28

But what happened? That is your life. Jennifer has never been in a room with an elephant. She exposes it every time.

Speaker 2 39:37

Like, why would you not? Why would you not? Why would you just sit there with this thing? Why would we let it be there? My family, my mom in particular. She'll come over. My job is always to make her laugh and make her cry, and she told me Good Lord. But she's.

Speaker 3 39:51

Stoic.

Speaker 2 39:52

Stoic and she's had to be. I mean, given the life that we had, she had to be right. You have to get tough, real quick, and so my job is to like loosen things up and last year or so she's like Aerie, she's like you are always willing to do the hard thing and you're always willing to say the hard thing. There you go. She meant it just. There was no negative or positive there. She was just saying it. I was like I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 4 40:18

It is.

Speaker 2 40:19

I agree, but not everybody thinks it's a good thing.

Speaker 1 40:22

Not everyone can handle it If you're on the receiving end of it.

Speaker 2 40:24

Yeah, well, true.

Speaker 3 40:26

I'm going to say something that I'm going to have to qualify, but you've said two or three times in the past like 15 minutes. You know the truth about being a woman in the world. Truth about being a woman in the world. I keep like 20, 25 clients at a time and I feel like as I lose guy clients, they keep getting replaced by women. I have way more women clients than I do men at this point.

Speaker 2 40:49

That's amazing.

Life Lessons and Marriage Reflections

Speaker 3 40:50

And I will talk to them and I have had two of them say the only reason I see you is because you're a man, because I've never had this kind of client soul care relationship, because evidently I'm a bit in tune with what it's like or how hard it is to be a woman in the world. And I tell them I'll never understand it. I literally say I don't understand, we cannot understand what it's like to be a woman in the world. And they're like thank you, thanks for at least acknowledging that we've got this thing that we have to get over before any of you do. And I'm like, yeah, totally get it.

Speaker 2 41:31

It is like living inside of a bag of cats right.

Speaker 1 41:34

Hmm, interesting, they're just all fighting all the time. That's a good way to put it.

Speaker 3 41:40

Cat bag.

Speaker 2 41:41

Cat bag, cat bag.

Speaker 3 41:43

This is a good band name Cat bag, cat bag Cat.

Speaker 4 41:46

This whole thing is a cat bag. That should be the name of this podcast. Cat bag Writing it down. That should be the name of this podcast Cat bag Writing it down. Bag of cats Speaking of bags.

Speaker 2 41:56

I have a friend that when she was upset with her kids she'd be like they're just a bag of butts. Bag of butts.

Speaker 4 42:04

That's called an OnlyFans cordial joke.

Speaker 1 42:08

We talked about OnlyFans last week. And I said because they were talking about having to. This is way too long ago.

Speaker 4 42:16

That's OnlyFans tagline. It's Bag of Butts. She thought it was OnlyButts.

Speaker 1 42:19

I thought it was just butts, Is it not just?

Speaker 2 42:22

do you know anything about OnlyFans More than I would like?

Speaker 1 42:25

but not enough to converse intelligently about Great Gross.

Speaker 3 42:31

That's going to be. The AI is going to pick up episode 26 with Ariel Lohan and her.

Speaker 1 42:38

OnlyFans account In a bag of butts Link in bio.

Speaker 4 42:42

I just love what you're writing down over here.

Speaker 3 42:44

Cat bag, one beautiful line and then cat bag and the next Stephen King book she told me to read.

Speaker 1 42:52

And then a nipple.

Speaker 3 42:53

Well, okay, so it's going to sound really weird what I said.

Speaker 2 42:57

But why?

Speaker 3 42:58

do women have trouble Like why do women have trouble empathizing with women? I got this one.

Speaker 1 43:08

Explain it to us.

Speaker 2 43:09

Drew, I can only tell you why I have trouble empathizing Occasionally Not always. I think I'm actually a fairly empathetic person, but I get very impatient because no one's coming to save you Like fix it.

Speaker 2 43:28

If you want it to be different, if you want it to be better, if you want it to work, you have to do something. You can't wait for it, and that's just me, though. That's where I came from, because I had to fix it, I had to change it, I had to do something, I had to leave, and what it cost to leave, what it cost me, what it cost my mother, it was a lot. It doesn't come without a price, but there is no one coming to save you.

Speaker 2 43:52

The cavalry is not coming. There is no one coming to save you. The cavalry is not coming.

Speaker 1 43:55

It is not coming. What's interesting is, you have said that a lot of times. When did that message settle in in you? I mean, I feel like this is something you've been saying to yourself for a long time.

Speaker 2 44:06

Oh, as long as I can remember, this is ridiculous. One of my earliest memories is the wild days of my childhood. Vague memory, three or four years old, wow Hiding in the sagebrush with my parents at night because there was somebody shooting guns at us or near us. I'm not sure. I just remember my dad, who was a former military police officer, was hiding in the sagebrush with us wow so no one's coming to save you man like, get through it you remember being that little.

Speaker 1 44:43

That's not my earliest memory we've talked about this.

Speaker 2 44:46

Probably my earliest memory is losing my finger all right. Yeah, oh my gosh, so it's okay it's gone, lucy is gone. It is gone.

Speaker 1 44:55

Oh wow, I forgot about that, totally forgot.

Speaker 3 44:57

I see that tremor's doing well for you, though, doing well with that tremor Jeez.

Speaker 1 45:02

But you remember thinking that yeah, because life was hard, wow.

Speaker 2 45:12

But I am obviously old enough now to realize that is not normal. That is just my particular experience, and so but women have this fortitude.

Speaker 3 45:23

My experience of the women in my life, and other ones, is that they are okay to go. Hey, the Calvary is not coming. It's actually men that are like snowflakes. I mean, that's just been my experience where they're like I have a client and I was like, hey, you know, let's go back and look at you know, try to find a little you. And I said what would you say to her? And she's like, well, I'd say, you know, be better I was like wait like this Wait.

Speaker 1 45:54

That's a little harsh.

Speaker 3 45:54

Yeah, she's like wait like this wait, that's a little harsh. Yeah, she's like. Yeah, would be one understanding, but I would also go do better. I was like yeah, that works on a shirt, but not like this is not the kindness to young you Like she's like yeah though, but you know, do better.

Speaker 1 46:10

Wow.

Speaker 3 46:11

The Calvary's not coming.

Speaker 2 46:13

It's not coming it it's not, and my husband and I talk about this all the time because it's not like I got married and rode off into some sunset. So we've been married 23 years, which I think is a good, respectable amount of time. I was super excited to hit 20 and then a friend of mine was like oh honey, you can do anything for 20 years oh, talk to me when you've been married 50.

Speaker 2 46:35

And I was like, okay, duly noted. So I say only 23 years, and I really like him, I love our family, I am happy. In that sense I am a unicorn. I am happily married, right. But everything that he and I have, we earned it ourselves and we earned it together. We earned it ourselves and we earned it together, yeah, and so, even though I got the great fortune of marrying somebody that I really like, and also love, which is funny, but go ahead.

Speaker 3 47:06

Why is it funny?

Speaker 1 47:07

Because I remember when you guys got together, what did I say? Something about really liking him Well. Janelle was dating his friend, yes, and you were not open to dating him. Do you remember that you were like no, we were friends. Yeah, you were like no, I just can't see it.

Speaker 2 47:24

Well, he vocalized it better later, because we were friends for a long time before we started dating and he told me that he was not going to date me until he was certain he was going to marry me because he didn't want to ruin the friendship.

Speaker 1 47:44

And then he's like, that's so much pressure. It's him, it's us, it's fine, whatever so, but I just remember you guys, you being like, yeah, that's not going to happen we were friends.

Speaker 2 47:50

my mother told me once, long before I ever met ashley, she's like ari. This is how it's going to go for you. This is how it's going to go for you. This is how it's going to work. You're going to be friends with somebody and you're really going to like him and you're going to get along exceptionally well, and then one day you're going to wake up and realize you're in love with him. Oh my gosh, she's like, because you overthink everything and he's going to have what happened.

Speaker 4 48:12

I love it. That's cool, that's very cool.

Speaker 2 48:14

I like that.

Speaker 3 48:15

I mean what a cool mom thing to say.

Speaker 2 48:17

I love that she does not give advice often, but when she does, you listen. My other favorite thing she told me about marriage, and I think it's still one of the smartest things I've ever heard. Aerie is what they call me. She's like Aerie. Women make a terrible mistake. They interpret arrogance as strength and kindness as weakness. They do. She told me to marry the kindest man that I could find, because that is true strength. And she was right and I did, and I cannot imagine being married to somebody cruel.

Speaker 1 48:54

I need to write. You need to write that. Tell me that again. I need to keep cruel. You need to write that. Tell me that again.

Speaker 4 48:59

I need to keep that I need to tell my daughter that it's true, though.

Speaker 1 49:01

It's too late for you. Well, that is true, but why do we do that? Why do we go for the bad boy? Every girl goes through a bad boy phase, do you not agree? I?

Speaker 2 49:11

think, I think no. I was a dick, I think because bad boys are bold, yeah, and because they're bold, they are able to say, or at the very least make you feel wanted, and most women go through a very insecure phase, so to have somebody be bold and make you, at the very least, feel wanted even if they're not saying it is a relief.

Speaker 1 49:41

I guess so. But we all did you. You went through a bad boy, I did, but it was young, like I. You were well, my gosh. Yes, I mean. Everything happened young for you. I mean you moved here, right, right, I mean.

Speaker 2 49:53

I didn't know how old you were. Did you date a cowboy? I have never dated a cowboy, oh.

Speaker 3 49:58

God.

Speaker 1 49:59

So when did I meet you? How old were you when I met you? Well, four years after you moved 20. You were 20? So how old were you? Maybe 20,?

Speaker 2 50:08

possibly 19. I met Janelle when I was 18. That Janelle when I was 18. That is crazy.

Speaker 3 50:15

Janelle and I, so we've known you since you were 18.

Speaker 2 50:17

Well, I don't think so. I think we've known each other since I became her roommate, and I think I was 20 then, and I don't know our age difference.

Speaker 3 50:27

You're a lot younger than me 78.

Speaker 1 50:29

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 50:30

Oh, you're way older than her. Uh-huh, you look great for 78, by the way?

Speaker 1 50:33

Yeah, I know she's killing it. Can we High and tight?

Speaker 3 50:43

Is that a?

Speaker 2 50:43

boob thing. She's high, and tight for 78. 78, right.

Speaker 3 50:46

Okay, right she's looking good. Do you read? What do you read for fun? I'm sure you get this all the time.

Speaker 2 50:54

No, it's a weird answer. So if I'm writing historical fiction which is all the time I really struggle to read it because it's I immediately compare my really bad draft to somebody's finished project, like I'm in a new book now and I'm like, oh God, I need to quit and go be a greeter at Walmart. This was the wrong job choice and it feels that way every time at the beginning. So I will read. I love fantasy. I mean, I grew up reading fantasy. Right, it will be an escape. It will take me away. A friend of mine told me recently that there are four reasons why people read and they all start with the letter E.

Speaker 4 51:32

Write this down.

Speaker 2 51:33

They read to be entertained.

Speaker 3 51:35

Okay, and they all start with the letter E.

Speaker 2 51:35

They read to be entertained, to escape, to be educated or to be edified.

Speaker 3 51:40

So not all four, it's one of these.

Speaker 2 51:43

Yeah, and that's why you pick a book. Yeah, when somebody picks a book off a shelf, they're reading. For one of those reasons and when she explained that to me, I was like, oh well, if I know what I need, I can go into a bookstore or library or my own bookshelf and be like, oh, I just need to escape. And then I will pull out a fantasy novel and go read it. If I want to be entertained, it's mystery or thriller. If I want to be educated, I will find nonfiction. If I want to be edified, it could be anything from a spiritual book to a memoir. So knowing what you need when you pick up a book, I think is the most important thing, and if you identify it, then 75% of the options are gone and you can go, okay.

Speaker 2 52:22

well, if I want to be entertained, I have these options.

Speaker 3 52:25

Interesting. It could be too well seasonal probably.

Speaker 2 52:28

Yeah.

Speaker 3 52:31

Do you read any nonfiction books?

Speaker 2 52:33

I do. I will read them on Audible.

Speaker 3 52:36

Audible okay.

Book, Bible, and Family Discussion

Speaker 2 52:37

So, we were talking about this earlier too. Sometimes I listen to fiction on Audible Mostly it's nonfiction because I feel like I can walk and learn something.

Speaker 3 52:45

Are we like biographies and stuff?

Speaker 2 52:47

Yeah, Are you familiar with a guy named Cal Newport? He's a productivity expert. He's got a book called Deep Work work, which sounds familiar to me actually. Basically, the premise is turn your phone off, turn your internet off and actually focus on something for longer than five minutes and stop being distracted, and then you can really get stuff done. That's I mean the just he says it way better. So I listened to all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 53:09

A couple, anything for like anything, like david sedaris or anything funny.

Speaker 2 53:13

I've never listened to David Sedaris, not for lack of interest.

Speaker 3 53:19

Yeah, my walking time is not a lot. I like funny books. Yeah, just to be.

Speaker 2 53:26

Actually, I take that back. I have a friend named Helen Ellis, who is the female David Sedaris, and so she has written a book. It's got a book of short fiction called um american housewife. She's got one called bring your baggage and don't pack light. Um, oh god, my. She's got four books, and the other two titles are escaping me. At the moment I'm sorry, helen. Helen ellis, she's fantastic and everything is real short and it's real sassy. I like that.

Speaker 2 53:54

I would enjoy that Her book. Bring your Baggage and Don't Pack Light. The first, the middle and the last are my favorite essays. It's all about friendship. She has this amazing group of female friends, and she really wanted to brag on them, and so she told all of the best stories.

Speaker 3 54:07

That's nice. That's cool Bible. Do you read the Bible Some? No, I'm serious. No, yes, not every day, because not everybody likes it.

Speaker 2 54:15

No, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 4 54:17

What's your favorite book of the Bible?

Speaker 2 54:19

My favorite book of the Bible? No one Ariel.

Speaker 3 54:23

No, actually Is that yours, Drew. Song of Solomon.

Speaker 2 54:25

Actually there's a big nod to Song of Solomon in here.

Speaker 3 54:28

Okay.

Speaker 2 54:28

So I actually do like that one her book.

Speaker 3 54:30

For those of you who are not watching, I'm trying to think this is going to sound ridiculous.

Speaker 2 54:35

I love Revelation.

Speaker 4 54:38

Oh my gosh, you like the dragons and stuff.

Speaker 2 54:39

I like the dragons, I like the crazy, but I love that it ends well.

Speaker 3 54:44

Don't tell me I haven't read it.

Speaker 2 54:49

I love James, I love it's funny.

Speaker 3 54:53

You picked the two books that almost weren't included in the Bible.

Speaker 2 54:56

Revelation and James.

Speaker 3 54:57

Revelation and James were the two when they closed the canon. There were a lot of people in the minority, but a lot of them that said those two do not belong, they're not putting those in Interesting they made it, they did, they made it. Barely.

Speaker 2 55:11

Barely and I love the Old Testament. Barely, barely, and I love um. I love the Old Testament, I love the stories.

Speaker 3 55:16

I love Genesis. You like the ends? Hey, the beginnings and the ends it begins with a wedding.

Speaker 2 55:21

It ends with a wedding.

Speaker 4 55:24

It's a very full circle book. Okay, don't get Jeremy started on the Bible, it could. It could cause weird spaces. What does that even?

Speaker 1 55:33

mean.

Speaker 3 55:34

Arguments Dep. He goes to weird spaces. What does that even mean? Arguments?

Speaker 1 55:35

Depends on who's listening.

Speaker 3 55:37

What was that guy's name?

Speaker 1 55:38

No, no, who's that? Guy that complains about us Realm, he complains more about you. The Realm. The Realm 5280. The Realm 5280. Moron, biblical nonsense, not a fan of me.

Speaker 3 55:48

Yeah, he calls Jennifer. More kingdom level blasphemy.

Speaker 1 55:53

Kindergarten level Kindergarten level, not kingdom level, sorry. Kindergarten level blasphemy from Jennifer.

Speaker 2 55:57

That's not nice.

Speaker 4 55:59

Man maybe that's your podcast name.

Speaker 1 56:01

Yes, kindergarten level blasphemy, I love it. I was thinking who let the elephant out?

Speaker 3 56:09

Oh, that's good too. That's good.

Speaker 1 56:12

I like it. I don't know what I'm going to talk about.

Speaker 2 56:15

It depends you want to talk about all the elephants in the room and you're going to pick them one at a time and then you're just going to oh, each episode a different elephant. Yes, I like it.

Speaker 3 56:23

I feel like, if you have, guests on there, though that could sound derogatory, Like this week on who Let the Elephant Out, Drew Powell.

Speaker 4 56:34

She calls me fat on about every episode I do.

Speaker 1 56:36

I've never called him fat Ariel, ever.

Speaker 3 56:40

You've alluded to it.

Speaker 1 56:41

I said he's a big guy. He's so tall and big. How tall are you again? 6'4".

Speaker 4 56:46

We don't have to do this?

Speaker 1 56:47

Yes, we do.

Speaker 3 56:49

I've never said when do you shop, tall and big, the tall and big store.

Speaker 1 56:53

It's big and tall, shut up.

Speaker 4 56:54

I know.

Speaker 1 56:55

Shut up.

Speaker 3 56:59

I had five hours of clients today, and so I'm not nearly as perky as I normally am, so this has been fun because she is caffeinated.

Speaker 2 57:09

So caffeinated. I almost had more coffee before I came and then I was like, dial it back, ariel, dial it back.

Speaker 3 57:15

Now see, that is the name of your essay book.

Speaker 2 57:18

Dial it back. Dial it back, ariel. No, no, no. Well, I will never write a memoir, never.

Speaker 3 57:23

Oh, don't say that crap.

Speaker 2 57:24

But if I did which I won't, but if I did, it would be called what Could Go Wrong.

Speaker 1 57:30

You actually have such an interesting story. I know which is why it will never happen, why it doesn't even make sense.

Speaker 2 57:37

I have an interesting story, so I'm never, going to write it.

Speaker 1 57:39

That does not make sense.

Speaker 2 57:40

Ariel Because A my mother is still alive, okay, and also Not forever.

Speaker 3 57:47

I'm not to be mean, but At the moment she is my dad died last year. What I'm not to be mean, but it's not. At the moment she is. My dad died last year. Why is that funny? Well, you're like not forever.

Speaker 1 57:56

My dad died two years ago, Well mine just died. My dad's more recent Shut up 20.

Speaker 2 58:02

20 years ago is when he died Mine.

Speaker 3 58:05

Your dad died 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 58:07

He died, my oldest son was six months old, and so this last. He died the day after Thanksgiving 2003.

Speaker 3 58:15

Was it a surprise?

Speaker 2 58:16

No, I mean he'd had cancer for a few years. Everyone had time to say it like it was. I mean, it was really sad, but it was not. You saw a shock.

Speaker 3 58:24

Yeah, did your mom remarry?

Speaker 2 58:26

No, never 20 years. I know what's your mom's name Emily.

Speaker 3 58:30

Emily, she's rocking it.

Speaker 2 58:32

She is rocking it.

Speaker 3 58:33

She's out there playing the field for 20 years she is living her absolute best life being a sculptor, and she's not in New Mexico anymore.

Speaker 1 58:41

No, she's here, okay.

Speaker 3 58:43

When you say sculptor, we're talking like statues, sculptures.

Speaker 2 58:47

Yes, I mean sculpt.

Speaker 3 58:48

Wait, that's not the wheel, that's a potter.

Speaker 1 58:52

Right, that's not the wheel, that's not the turntable, she's not a sculptor no, what Darn it.

Speaker 2 58:58

Now you've got me confused.

Speaker 3 59:00

She makes stuff out of stone stuff.

Speaker 2 59:02

Not stone, she does found objects. So lots of wood, lots of metal, lots of paper mache, but she will make sculptures. Okay, but she will make sculptures, okay.

Speaker 1 59:09

So she's putting them all together?

Speaker 2 59:11

Yes, oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 3 59:13

She's putting stuff, so she's not. Oh my gosh. Well, wait a minute. Do you know what she's talking about?

Speaker 2 59:18

Yes, what I wish. I could show you a picture. I don't have my phone.

Speaker 3 59:21

So she's finding stuff and putting it together.

Speaker 2 59:24

Yes, so emilyallisonartcom, I think, is her website. I'm not sure if it's active anymore, but you can see a bunch of her stuff on there. It's really really incredible.

Speaker 3 59:35

This episode is sponsored by Emily Allison.

Speaker 2 59:37

Art. It's really incredible stuff and she makes it and the gallery here in Franklin Gallery 202, is the place that carries her stuff.

Speaker 1 59:47

Oh my gosh, it's all there.

Speaker 3 59:48

Look at that. Very cool, that's very cool.

Speaker 1 59:50

Are your siblings artisty?

Speaker 2 59:55

No, I take that back All in a very different kind of way. My older brother more business, I write. My younger brother is like a whiz with cars. He can fix any vehicle. I have another sister that writes. I have a sister that's a jewelry artist.

Speaker 3 1:00:17

She makes jewelry.

Speaker 2 1:00:19

So, yes, yes, she said artist. And my brain immediately I hear art and I think visual art, I think paintings and sculptures. I have to remind myself sometimes that what I do is art, right. Right, I know what you mean, yeah, so, yes, yeah, I guess we're all very another sister that's a writer yeah, beginning for her, yes yeah, very weird, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 4 1:00:43

That's why it's like being like going there what's?

Speaker 3 1:00:46

it like being lebron, james, little brother well, we need, we need her. To finish, the lesser known James.

Speaker 2 1:00:52

We need her to not worry about that?

Speaker 1 1:00:55

Yeah, that's hard, that would be very hard.

Speaker 2 1:00:57

Well, so she came up in school after me and all the teachers loved me, and so they just assumed the English teachers loved me, the math teachers not so much, but they just assumed that she was going to be like I was. So I think she resisted it for a long time because nobody wants to be compared to their big, obnoxious sister, you know yeah, she was in the shadow.

Speaker 1 1:01:21

It's just hard being a younger. Yeah, I have an older brother.

Speaker 2 1:01:24

It's terrible. Being the second child is the worst thing in the world, because you want to be in charge, but you also want everyone to be happy about it and you can never get either of those things, see. So wait a minute. You want to be in charge, but you also want everyone to be happy about it and you can never get either of those things.

Speaker 3 1:01:34

Oh see, so wait a minute. You want to be in charge, but what?

Speaker 2 1:01:36

I want everyone to be happy about me being in charge.

Navigating Politics and Personal Creativity

Speaker 1 1:01:40

Okay, so as the second child, they'll never be happy.

Speaker 3 1:01:43

You want to be elected.

Speaker 2 1:01:45

Yes, because I could do a great job, I could fix it, but you don't want to put your own name in the ballot, but you want to be elected.

Speaker 1 1:01:53

You want somebody to nominate you.

Speaker 3 1:01:56

I don't.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

You want to be nominated.

Speaker 3 1:01:59

It's an honor to be nominated. There you go.

Speaker 1 1:02:00

It is an honor, but you want someone to put your name in that ring.

Speaker 2 1:02:05

No, it's more like everybody's messing everything up. I could absolutely fix it, but in order to fix it, I have to be in charge up. I could absolutely fix it, but in order to fix it, I have to be in charge. In order to be in charge, there's got to be this god-awful battle to get there, and I don't.

Speaker 3 1:02:14

I don't have time for that, I'm too tired to fight for it okay so are there in these, in these books like these, these fantasies they I mean, I know they're historical fiction, but they're still fiction. They live in your head, so like, but the world isn't there. So do you have space for like politics and religious arguments, or do you purposely like go? You know what? I can't enter into that because I need to do this.

Speaker 2 1:02:46

Are you talking about when I'm writing a book, or just in my own head at all?

Speaker 3 1:02:49

I'm talking about like these stories come out of the sky for you, and so that when you're, I mean Madeline Lengel. She told her assistant, when I'm thinking I'm working, like, her assistant was like hey, ms Lengel, you're getting up. And she's like no, no, no, we're working that day and the assistant said, well, we don't have anything. She said, like would you?

Speaker 2 1:03:23

be able to enter into all that stuff in your mind and still be creative takes place at a point in time when women were not allowed to testify in court without their husbands or their fathers present. It's crazy, this. I mean it takes place at a point in time, and it's this is in the book. There was a law on the books in Massachusetts it was called the law for the punishment of fornication and the maintenance of bastard children, in which that was on the books in Massachusetts in the 1500s is when they wrote that which meant if you were a woman and you had a child out of wedlock, you had to go to court and they would either fine you or they would put you in jail. That same law made no provision at all for the father. He could go to the judge, fess up, and he got to go about his way. All stories are political, and so the art of it is, and so the art of it is. If I wrote that story today, it would feel like you're reading the newspaper right?

Speaker 3 1:04:18

Right.

Speaker 2 1:04:19

Nobody wants to do that. So the art of it is writing a story about a person that you care about so deeply that you can talk about all of the things that happen in any point in time, which are political issues and social issues and female issues and family issues, religious issues. You can talk about all of them because they really happened. But you anchor it around this person that you care about so desperately who, hopefully, in this book, I hope you care about her.

Speaker 2 1:04:47

She's a midwife and so her job is to deliver all those babies some to mothers who are married, some to mothers who are not, and then you can talk about the ramifications of injustice through the veil of story, but you have to care about the person. You have to really care about the person that's driving the story.

Speaker 1 1:05:08

Yeah, yeah, that's well said, but when you're writing this book, how much of your headspace is taken up?

Speaker 3 1:05:15

I guess I'm asking about.

Speaker 1 1:05:17

Can you pay attention? Are you able to live? Are you?

Speaker 3 1:05:20

able to pay attention to all of this minutiae that we have and still pay attention, or do you have to go? You know what I can't. That's not my fight. I'm going to write.

Speaker 2 1:05:32

It's both. I still live in the real world, right. I still have to make dinner. I got to go to a kid's band concert tonight.

Speaker 3 1:05:37

Oh, bless your heart.

Speaker 2 1:05:39

It's great he's, it's Riglet, he's doing his. He, on a whim, joined winter percussion.

Speaker 1 1:05:47

As you do, okay.

Speaker 2 1:05:49

And they put him on base two. I don't even know what that is. Apparently, it's the hard one. Yes, it's the hard one.

Speaker 3 1:05:54

He was base two too. I'm in drum line. I love drum lines.

Speaker 2 1:05:57

And so tonight is the friends and family night, where we get to see what he's been doing for the last four months. Yeah so, but before I came here, I sat at my desk and I opened the files for my new book, most of which were written before I went on book tour, and therefore I'm like I don't know what is happening. What is this story? Who are these people?

Speaker 2 1:06:18

I'm having to reacquaint myself with it and inevitably, what happens when I'm writing something is whatever's going on in the world that I also care about and am paying attention to in some way leaks into the story. Because every book book. I don't know how to explain this. If you write a novel, it is the most vulnerable thing in the world because everything you believe is right there on the page for somebody to read. You can't hide any of it, and any writer that thinks they're hiding anything they feel, think, believe their worldview, their faith. They're not hiding anything. It's all think, believe their worldview, their faith.

Speaker 2 1:06:55

They're not hiding anything. It's all there, oh wow, and so it's like streaking. It's streaking in front of the whole world. What that means, though, is I'm putting so much of myself on the page with every book that inevitably, what is happening in the world is also happening to me, therefore, happening to the character In this particular book. Book it happens to be a long marriage and having a bunch of kids that are growing up, um all, there's all these bits in there where martha talks about motherhood.

Speaker 1 1:07:20

That's just so good, that's just opening a vein, and if you've ever had kids and I heard you talk about this when I went to the bookstore and saw you talk uh, what do you?

Speaker 2 1:07:30

call that. What do you? What is that called? Is that called the book release? Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:07:34

Anyway, you talked and you said you were going to write this before and you couldn't have written it. Yes, which is so true. I mean, you couldn't have known what it was like to have grown kids.

Speaker 2 1:07:43

No, I came up. I found this. Really, the idea found me. I used to think I find them, but really they find me. This idea found me in a doctor's office when I was pregnant with Riggs he's 15 now. I could have no more written this book as it is with four kids, five and under, than I could have sailed to the moon. I mean, I was not the same person then. So I found the idea then, or it found me, and then I held onto it until I was ready to write it. I was telling Jeremy before we started. I did a podcast last fall and I was trying to say I wanted to write a book about a woman who has seen some shit, and then I got bleeped. I got bleeped, but that's the truth. She has. She's seen a lot. She has seen so much shit. She's given birth to nine kids and only six are still living, and she's been married for 35 years.

Speaker 2 1:08:38

Ariel in 2008,. Couldn't have written this book.

Speaker 3 1:08:42

No.

Speaker 2 1:08:43

I had to grow up too, and that's the really weird alchemy of what I do is, even when you find this amazing idea, it doesn't necessarily mean that I can accomplish what it needs.

Speaker 3 1:08:56

It's so interesting, I'll just start this right now as a mom of a 20-year-old there's no way.

Speaker 2 1:09:02

How much is 21? Has he turned 21? July oh that's right. So London will turn 21 in May.

Speaker 1 1:09:10

We were right there with each other. Yeah, they were really. Yeah, they were close. There's an interesting story behind that cover.

Speaker 2 1:09:15

Right, yes, I chose it it's the only book cover of my entire career that I chose. When we were working on covers, they kept sending me ones and I didn't love them and I would say this is what I want. And they'd send me a cover and it was exactly what I asked for and I was like this is not working. For somebody who communicates in words, I cannot express to them what I'm looking for. And last January I got sick and I sat on my couch for an entire day and there's this stock photography website and I spent I don't know seven hours and I sent them that picture and finally I was like this is what I'm talking, talking about. I want something like this, that feels like this, and they're like we love that picture.

Speaker 1 1:09:54

Let's do that so, and it was it them that made the little animation of it.

Speaker 3 1:09:59

Yeah, that was beautiful, I know I wouldn't do this with yours, because I know what you look like. But when I buy a book, the first thing I do is throw the cover away because I don't want to accidentally see the author in the back.

Speaker 2 1:10:10

Fascinating. Why it?

Speaker 3 1:10:11

ruins it. I don't like to see. I'm the same with musicians. I don't like to see Like. I have some musicians that I love and I refuse to.

Speaker 4 1:10:19

But now that, because I know what you look like. That's fascinating.

Speaker 3 1:10:23

After her explaining her novels and her life. I want you to write a novel. I just figured it out.

Speaker 1 1:10:29

Can you imagine?

Speaker 3 1:10:31

What would be so funny would be to see the woven like it would be. All these like lofty things, and then there might be this, and then Rory Gilmore left.

Speaker 1 1:10:39

Yale, it would be. All these TV characters, all the different TV shows that I watch. It would be like this study.

Speaker 3 1:10:47

I could see like college professors reading this in 200 years and be like what was Jennifer Dibler thinking at that time and students be like well, there's a lot of friends woven into it.

Speaker 1 1:10:59

I can tell you one thing no college professor is going to be looking at anything I write.

Speaker 3 1:11:04

You don't know that, I don't know that, you don't know that your third act is going to be the best. All right, thanks, babe, I've told my clients.

Speaker 1 1:11:10

This, your third act, is going to be the best. All right, thanks babe, Thanks babe.

Speaker 3 1:11:13

I've told my clients this, but I want to write a book. Obviously it would be all anonymous stories, but I just want to write the. You can't make this shit up, Because there's stuff that.

Speaker 1 1:11:24

Oh, some of the stories that you hear.

Speaker 3 1:11:27

Oh my gosh, it's just so great.

Speaker 1 1:11:32

Can you tell us what your next one is? I think I I forget what you you explained this, but I it's let me guess it takes place back then it does oh man even way back even farther back.

Dreams and Character Inspiration

Speaker 1 1:11:45

I need to ask you another one. Let me ask you before we move on to that. I want to ask you is I texted you when I'm reading this book. I'm like, okay, what actress do you have in mind for this? Okay, and I know you may not want to ask you, because I texted you when I'm reading this book. I'm like, okay, what actress do you have in mind for this? And I know you may not want to tell this- it's fine.

Speaker 2 1:11:55

I normally don't have anything. I don't. Have you ever heard of the mind's eye, the whole conversation about the mind's eye and whether or not you can see the apple and all this kind of stuff? I don't have one. We'll get there in a second. See nothing. When I close my eyes, I got the back of my eyelids, I got nothing else. What nothing? My characters do.

Speaker 3 1:12:12

What do you?

Speaker 2 1:12:13

dream nothing. I don't um wait. Okay, that's not. This is important, so this is my podcast.

Speaker 3 1:12:19

You don't dream not really.

Speaker 2 1:12:25

I mean, if I do well, I take that back, it's like you've never slept oh no, I sleep well. No, I don't remember. If I dream, I don't really remember them. The dreams that I have are in three categories. A my teeth are falling out usually during something important. B, I'm in a falling elevator, yeah. Or C, I am back in school and someone's making me do math.

Speaker 3 1:12:47

Oh gosh, Interesting With pants on. The pants are irrelevant.

Speaker 1 1:12:50

You didn't go to school Without your pants. You have clothes on in school. Yes.

Speaker 3 1:12:55

I always have clothes on, no math is scarier Than being naked have you had no pants dream. Oh my gosh, you've had it right.

Speaker 1 1:13:00

I've had, mine are more. I can't get ready. I'm trying to get.

Speaker 4 1:13:05

Usually it's we're going to go on stage. I don't think that's dreaming, I think that's actually. Wait a minute, you wrote your memoir.

Speaker 1 1:13:14

I mean it's usually like walking through molasses trying to get something done.

Speaker 2 1:13:19

So my question was I normally don't see anybody, right, Because they're not A lot of writer friends. They just close their eyes and they just write down what they see and it's like they're narrating the script or their characters will actually talk to them, which I find insane. None of that happens to me. I have to tweeze it all out of my spine.

Speaker 3 1:13:36

That sort of feels like a. I think it's clinical yeah it kind of feels like a A problem, schizophrenia, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:13:43

It's actually really normal among writers. So it's Anyway.

Speaker 1 1:13:46

That's telling you something about writers.

Speaker 2 1:13:48

That is actually. I mean, it's socially acceptable. Insanity is what this is.

Speaker 3 1:13:54

It really is.

Speaker 2 1:13:54

It is. No, it's a real thing. But to answer your question, I was watching Wheel of Time with Riggs and I saw Rosamund Pike and I went. She says so much with her face, which, in my mind, is what Martha does in this book. She's a woman of few words, so when she speaks you listen, but she can communicate so much with her face.

Speaker 1 1:14:16

You told me that I was shocked. It was not what I had in mind. I just think Rosamund Pike is beautiful and I think this woman's beautiful, but in a very harsh sort of way I saw more of a Nicole Kidman, nicole Kidman interesting.

Speaker 2 1:14:29

Tall, because she's tall.

Speaker 1 1:14:32

She is tall and curly hair Mm-hmm and more of a structured-.

Speaker 2 1:14:35

I'll tell you what. You take it to Nicole and see what she says. I'll see what I do Now.

Speaker 3 1:14:38

Helene is absolutely a brunette.

Speaker 2 1:14:41

Yes, she is. I mean she is.

Speaker 1 1:14:44

Well, she's not-, yeah, but she is, she is. Margot Robbie as a brunette. Margot Wait, who? Margot Robbie?

Speaker 3 1:14:53

Robbie, yes, who I no, she's Anne Hathaway with short hair.

Speaker 1 1:14:57

Also. Yes, that would be great. She's for sure Anne Hathaway, but who is? I can't think of his name Because Anne Hathaway wears red lipstick.

Speaker 2 1:15:03

Yes, she would be great. Yeah, yeah, eph, I don't know Again. I Okay, I, is he good looking, okay. So in my mind this is how it works. This is a very small subset of listeners that we've gone to.

Speaker 3 1:15:17

Our listeners, it has to be people who have read this book.

Speaker 1 1:15:21

So Our listeners are very small pool, so in my mind.

Speaker 3 1:15:23

I mean we're talking like Go ahead.

Speaker 2 1:15:25

Okay, but they were my parents. She looks like my mother.

Speaker 2 1:15:28

She looks like my mother, who was a very beautiful woman. She had dark hair and dark eyes. And my dad was a shockingly handsome man and he was very tall and he had black hair and jet blue eyes. So this is what I do when I'm writing. I am sometimes pulling physical characteristics from people that I know, sometimes personality, emotional, because you have to build these people out of nothing. Yes, she really lived, but what history left us tells us nothing. It tells us nothing of what she looked like. It tells us nothing of her personality. I know what she did, but I don't know who she was.

Speaker 1 1:15:57

I have to make that.

Speaker 2 1:15:58

So I pull from sources that I have Okay.

Speaker 4 1:16:02

There you go, there you have it, it's so interesting it's very interesting. I like having girls on.

Speaker 3 1:16:07

Yeah, I mean so far we've only had one female guest before, ariel.

Speaker 1 1:16:11

Who was it? Shelly Green.

Speaker 4 1:16:14

Point of grace. I just saw Shelly in the coffee shop the other day. She walked up to me so confident she goes Ben Nope.

Speaker 1 1:16:23

Not even close Ben.

Speaker 4 1:16:24

She was like no, I know exactly. She was like I never do that, I never know people's names. I was so confident you were Ben, that I never know people's names. I was so confident you were Ben. I'm like no, drew. She's like oh, yeah, great.

Speaker 3 1:16:31

It was great. I mean Jennifer's a lot, so we usually have just one girl and that's her, but this has been fun.

Speaker 2 1:16:40

You're a lot, I'm a lot.

Speaker 1 1:16:42

I like it If we had a podcast.

Speaker 2 1:16:44

We would burn it down. I would love that.

Speaker 4 1:16:47

You could guys do your podcast together. I, you could guzzle your pockets together. I would love it.

Speaker 1 1:16:51

We would have a lot of cussing, oh so much. The realm would be so disappointed.

The Poetry of Cursing

Speaker 2 1:16:57

It is. Listen, here's my view on cursing. Okay, oh good, let's hear it. Every word is a tool. You can use the right tool for the right job, the wrong tool for the wrong job. You can overuse tools, but when you use a tool correctly, at the right moment, it is poetry, and if you find true the right curse word for the right moment not overdone delivered well it is poetic amen sister take that realm, take that put that in your pipe and smoke it realm

Speaker 3 1:17:30

realm 52. Realm 52. Realm 52. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 4 1:17:34

Thank you for having me. That's super interesting.

Speaker 3 1:17:35

We're at like 120. We should probably go. We'll talk about next time. We'll talk about some more. Will you come back?

Speaker 1 1:17:46

Yeah, that would be so fun.

Speaker 3 1:17:48

Oh, my gosh Aunt Verna is going to freak out.

Speaker 1 1:17:51

His Aunt Verna has texted me. So you know, ariel, I'm like, yeah, I know, ariel, oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 1:17:57

You're a pretty big deal. We'll call her Ari. Yeah, ari Ari, you can call me Ari, screwed it up.

Speaker 1 1:18:03

Way to go, Drew, Way to go Ben Ben Ben. Produced by Ben.

Speaker 3 1:18:16

Ben.

Speaker 1 1:18:16

Drew, produced by ben ben drew um big ben, big ben she has to call you fat somehow.

Speaker 4 1:18:18

No see, she did. You said it first tall and big. Yeah, um, big store.

Speaker 3 1:18:19

Let's figure out the name of your podcast, we'll figure that out, um, but we should talk about like you mean, you need to come back and let's talk about like god stuff, because the artistic mind understands god not better, but just different, you know okay, so I will give you my no, not yet no, I'm gonna give you the primer for when you have me come back okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 1:18:41

Here's my primer for the creative mind. As a person of faith, which I absolutely am, I came to christ when I was 16 years old. I've never looked back. If I am made in the image of a creative God which I believe that I am, and that means that I am creative yeah, I'm made in his image. I am creative I think everyone is and you just have to figure out how, and then you have to hone whatever craft that is. It's so. Hone your customers, it's that easy, it's that hard.

Speaker 2 1:19:08

It's so hone your cuspers. It's that easy, it's that hard.

Speaker 3 1:19:10

Well, I think, just getting to kind of be ancillary to this conversation, that you two have had this whole time. I feel like maybe you and I have a similar understanding of God, that God just keeps getting better. The gospel, according to me, is that God's better in my 40s than he was in my 30s or 20s.

Speaker 2 1:19:35

I wouldn't want to go back and have the faith that I had at 16. It was enough to get me out.

Speaker 3 1:19:39

Yeah, yeah, okay, but I'm like I just feel so much more hopeful.

Speaker 2 1:19:44

Like.

Speaker 3 1:19:44

I love the world we're giving our kids. I don't feel like it's gone to hell in a handbasket.

Speaker 1 1:19:51

Wow, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Speaker 2 1:19:53

I would say this no, no, here's what I would say Goodbye everybody. I would say I love the kids we're giving the world.

Speaker 1 1:20:02

Amen. That's great, but the world is a shite basket. It is not.

Speaker 2 1:20:07

Parts of it are, parts of it are. I think there are many, many, many, many many parts that I would not want to live in personally um, but your experience, babe, like your personal experience is is the world a bad place?

Speaker 3 1:20:21

oh, don't talk to me like that here we go say it sign us off oh what we gotta go so stay fresh cheese bags.