The Gospel According to Jeromy
Welcome to "The Gospel According to Jeromy" podcast, where faith, humor, and heartfelt stories collide in a lively conversation about life, love, and everything in between. Join your host Jeromy Deibler, along with co-hosts Jennifer Deibler and Drew Powell, as they share the Dieblers journey from being the acclaimed Christian band FFH to their current path in spiritual direction.
In this engaging and candid podcast, Jeromy, Jennifer, and Drew offer a unique blend of perspectives on spirituality, mental health, emotional well-being, and personal growth. Drawing from their extensive experiences on the road and life's ups and downs, they explore the joys and challenges of faith, all while sprinkling in some humor along the way.
Get ready for spirited debates, deep dives into controversial thoughts, and heartwarming memories as they invite you into their world of faith, questions, and spiritual exploration. Whether you're a longtime believer, a spiritual seeker, or simply someone looking for meaningful conversations, "The Gospel According to Jeromy" podcast has something for everyone.
Tune in to join the conversation, laugh, learn, and be inspired as Jeromy, Jennifer, and Drew navigate the twists and turns of life's spiritual journey. It's a podcast that's as diverse as their experiences and as authentic as their hearts. Subscribe today and embark on a captivating exploration of faith, laughter, and the adventure of the human spirit.
The Gospel According to Jeromy
Intimacy Disorders and Reality Checks
Ever had one of those days where everything goes hilariously wrong? Jennifer kicks off this episode with a wardrobe malfunction story that'll have you laughing out loud, especially when you hear how her church pastors reacted. Jeremy also sets the record straight about his comments on Matthew West, sharing a delightful dinner tale featuring Matthew and his wife, Emily. The laughs continue as we explore the ups and downs of raising teenagers, moving homes, and a treadmill mishap involving Sadie that you won't want to miss.
Parenting teens and relocating are no small feats, and we tackle these challenges with a mix of humor and heartfelt stories. From the emotional rollercoaster of moving and selling a house to the financial gymnastics of finding a more affordable neighborhood, we offer insights and laughs in equal measure. Our conversation is all about striking that balance between serious life changes and keeping things light, making sure you walk away with both practical tips and a smile.
The episode takes a deeper dive into the realms of intimacy, boundaries, and dealing with addiction. We get real about the struggles of growing up in a church environment, the journey toward spiritual growth, and the importance of true surrender. Personal stories reveal the complexities of setting boundaries and breaking free from societal pressures, ultimately emphasizing self-awareness and emotional presence. And if you're nostalgic for retro gadgets or curious about the quirks of credit scores, we've got you covered with some humorous trips down memory lane. Join us for an episode that's as enlightening as it is entertaining!
Everybody. Welcome to the Gospel. According to Jeremy, season 2, Episode 2, probably Episode 35 or something, if you're following from the very beginning, my name is Jeremy Deibler. I'm here with my wife, jennifer Deibler, and Drew Powell.
Speaker 3:Jeremy Dibler. I'm here with my wife, jennifer Dibler, and Drew Powell.
Speaker 1:Uh, we are um broadcasting from our bony ass room. Um, that's a shout out to uh Kobe James, who loves so much, send a comment that you call this the bony ass the bony ass room, yep. Bonus room. She's always called it bony ass room. I love it.
Speaker 3:Works Anytime I can get it. You're going to fidget with that.
Speaker 4:Okay, I don't have to, it's loud.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Get your stay my other fidget toy.
Speaker 2:Why do we have that? Is that book part of the episode it?
Speaker 1:will be in a second. Oh, claire, I've got to just tell you what happened this week. First, you look great in that shirt, by the way.
Speaker 2:What does it say? I love that color.
Speaker 4:I still see you in green. That much I know I don't wear this color much. I'm pretty plain. I'll wear this and then I'll look down and go which have you repeated? I try not to. She went along to it.
Speaker 2:You never repeated an outfit. You might want to look at it.
Speaker 1:You've got to, there you go.
Speaker 4:No, I did a whole year at our church and I didn't repeat an outfit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's impressive.
Speaker 4:I mean, you know there, are pieces that I repeated, but I didn't repeat the outfit.
Speaker 1:Obviously, that's not a passion of mine. We've got comments that you always people pay attention to what you wear and you always look nice. They like the blue from last week.
Speaker 4:Last week. Yeah Well, that shirt. You have to be careful because the buttons don't stay. Yeah, I had a tank top on.
Speaker 2:I had yeah that was my safety net.
Speaker 1:My most embarrassing moment ever in my life was with that shirt In your life. It was rough. I had a good life. I mean that was the most embarrassing. Listen, not saying at the Rodeo USA pageant that your favorite movie is Backdraft.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was embarrassing. That wasn't in front of a lot of people, that was just in front of a little panel. But this, I mean I was standing, oh, it wasn't in front.
Speaker 1:I'm picturing you in front of an arena full of people in oklahoma. I'm going okay, miss else. What is your favorite movie and why?
Speaker 4:oh no, no, this was just in front of a panel, backdraft still. I had just seen backdraft and I was like you're into it backdraft no I wasn't into it, I just first thing that came to my mind. It was just a stupid movie about a. About a fireman. I mean.
Speaker 1:So you're probably going to have to tell the church story I guess.
Speaker 4:So I'm standing there talking to our pastor and our youth pastor at our church in. California. They're sitting on a bench. I'm standing in front of them and we were talking about we were redecorating the church with my, my and I had my hands on my hips.
Speaker 1:This is radio, so you'll have to.
Speaker 4:Well, I had my hand on my hips and my shoulder, you know just like thinking and they're sitting right in front of me, I'm standing, they're sitting, and I'm standing there and I'm thinking, huh, all of a sudden I felt a breeze. Oh, no. And I buttoned and the next button is buttoned and this is like wide open. Oh no, yeah, and it's listen. I happen to have on this certain bra and it was like out of control anyway.
Speaker 1:So, oh, I know this you do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the one bra the one, I don't know why the one the one bra that doesn't look like it's meant for a 75-year-old woman. Yeah, exactly, shut up. So I look down and I'm like oh my God, and literally eye level with both pastors.
Speaker 2:Did they say anything?
Speaker 4:And I was like okay, and I turned around and they were like it was so uncomfortable and my pastor goes we wouldn't have noticed, it was just so bright.
Speaker 2:He didn't say that oh no.
Speaker 4:So I was like well nice knowing you guys.
Speaker 2:I never will see you again and that's how we left the church. Wow, great story horrible.
Speaker 4:I wanted to die A very slow, painful death.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was awful. So that was that. So that shirt you got to be, you got to be careful.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably something as men, we don't obviously have to think about, but I feel like I would be insecure about that I wouldn't want my stomach showing.
Speaker 4:That's a little different.
Speaker 1:By the way, shout out, I have to clarify something from last week. So last week I used the phrase Matthew freaking West. Okay, yeah, and it came out like I am not a fan of Matthew West.
Speaker 3:Matthew West and I are friends. Jennifer and Emily are friends. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:I think Matthew. He is an amazing songwriter, gifted guy. It'd be hard to find anybody that didn't like Matthew West. My point was that we now went from this quaint little town to we have Matthew West, a big star Like he's a big deal. Yes, so for all of you who have thought I don't like Matthew, I do like Matthew and this leads me it's funny, this leads me to a Matthew West story. So, matthew, and it's going to sound like a big fat name drop.
Speaker 4:Why are you going to name drop?
Speaker 1:Yes, but because of the story.
Speaker 4:He may have told this story.
Speaker 1:actually, we were at dinner with Matthew and Emily.
Speaker 4:We have never, ever done anything with with them. This was like the one time.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we've seen them at the bakery or whatever.
Speaker 4:So matthew and uh, steven and mary beth chapman and that was like the one time I went to either of them and a manager that uh used to manage them, kind of put us all together.
Speaker 1:We're at dinner in franklin and this embarrassing stuff comes up and I said, guys, just out of curiosity, what would be a bigger fear for you walking out on stage without a shirt on or without pants? Yeah, cuz my, I would much rather go on stage with no pants then you know sure one and they were like sure, we would definitely want to be no shirtless, for sure you wouldn't. I was like, no, I would definitely do shirt and no pants but you're talking, you're still wearing underwear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got on these on yeah maybe that maybe thought no undies yeah oh yeah, I don't want to go out there with my wiener hanging out, yeah, but I mean I think for sure I would go, no, no right, no, no, I'm with you on that.
Speaker 2:That's important clarification, because I'm going out if I can still wear undies, I'm definitely going out with a shirt on and undies. For sure.
Speaker 4:I think they must have thought you were going.
Speaker 1:Winnie the Pooh. Yeah, that took me a minute. What is up with Winnie the Pooh's outfit?
Speaker 4:Why is he called Winnie the Pooh?
Speaker 1:But he doesn't have pants on. It's weird. Winnie the Pooh's outfit why is he called Winnie the Pooh Pervert? But he doesn't have pants on and it's weird.
Speaker 4:Why is he a poop bear?
Speaker 2:He's kind of living the dream, just like head first in the honey with no pants on. Why is he?
Speaker 4:a poop bear. Why is he called Poop Winnie the Poop Pooh?
Speaker 1:I don't know Pooh bear, I do.
Speaker 4:Oh well.
Speaker 1:Probably you are, you're not.
Speaker 3:I'm probably you.
Speaker 1:No, you're not.
Speaker 4:I mean, I don't know who am I. You would know better than me. Well who am I then? Well, you're definitely not Tigger, because isn't that?
Speaker 1:the whole thing. You find yourself in one of the characters.
Speaker 4:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm probably the rabbit. You are the rabbit. Am I mean rabbit? No, but the rabbit is always against something he's always like.
Speaker 4:The rabbit's mean, though I don't think I'm mean, I don't know, is rabbit mean, yeah, he's just a jerk. Really yeah. I mean, you're kind of.
Speaker 1:Kanga, you mother a lot of people.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm probably more Kanga.
Speaker 1:Rue is the best Rue's so sweet.
Speaker 3:Do you even know the characters Not?
Speaker 2:really oh you're Barry Tigger.
Speaker 1:You're definitely more.
Speaker 2:Tigger, me, tigger. Yeah. Well, tigger's the Enneagram Seven.
Speaker 1:I'm good with that. I mean, Tigger comes in and says I'm a Tigger, because Tigger's a wonderful thing. I mean he walks in and goes here, I am, this ticker's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll probably.
Speaker 1:I've got some EOR in me for sure. Oh, me too I might be poo Poo's a lush, and so he cannot. I mean he's an addict. Yeah, obviously.
Speaker 2:The honey, yeah, the honey and the pants. And he also doesn't have any pants on.
Speaker 4:He's definitely strung out on something Running around around with no pants on Once he gets his mind on something, he gets himself fixated.
Speaker 1:Well, that's his thing. He always gets in trouble because he can't not go for the ride.
Speaker 4:I wish I could do his voice. His voice is so different and wild.
Speaker 2:I love that ride at Disney, the Winnie the Pooh ride. It's great.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have we been on that?
Speaker 4:I think so, didn't it used to be Mr Toad's Wild Ride?
Speaker 1:It was Mr Toad.
Speaker 4:Oh, shut up, Mr.
Speaker 1:Toad's Wild Ride. Is it Toad's Wild Ride?
Speaker 4:I can't word you should know, this. You know what it is. It's mold poisoning. It's because I have brain damage from the mold.
Speaker 1:But then you had that when you were a kid.
Speaker 4:I probably did.
Speaker 1:Good week so far. Yeah, it's been great Good week for you, buddy.
Speaker 3:I haven't changed my shirt.
Speaker 1:It is the same shirt.
Speaker 2:I love a good fishing shirt, oh that's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Does that have the flap in the back?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, You're old, oh my.
Speaker 1:God.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's hot you wear the flap shirt.
Speaker 4:You better wear a flap in this hot.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it gives you a little if I, I would live in fishing shirts, if I could.
Speaker 4:They're so comfortable fish. I love to fish. When's the last time you fished a long time? Okay, what kind of fishing are you talking like fly fishing?
Speaker 2:I, I, I like fly fishing, I, I don't love it because what my favorite kind of fishing is inshore fishing in florida, where you can go out like a flats boat and you can use just live shrimp or cut mullet and you can catch redfish, mango snapper, I mean, you can mangrove snapper, you can catch all these different kinds of fish out there with just this and I, that's my favorite, that's my favorite.
Speaker 1:Well, we so last week to fish.
Speaker 4:Last week we my favorite things. I'm sorry I cut you off. Last week, we it's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I cut you off.
Speaker 4:You don't care about me, I do really.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we've talked about your fishing quite a bit, but Halfway. Yes, I mean we mentioned, did you know? I loved to fish.
Speaker 2:I remember. Now I forgot that I remember.
Speaker 1:But you forget tons of stuff Unbelievable how much I forget, I don't think that coming home from school, going up to the pond fishing, my uncle had a fish hotel. We've talked about that a lot. I don't remember that. Last week we mentioned the Gospel According to Jeremy across America.
Speaker 3:A house tour.
Speaker 1:I actually did work up a little like what would it take to do this?
Speaker 3:You did.
Speaker 1:That was fast.
Speaker 2:I did it Like a writer type thing.
Speaker 1:We would play some music. It would it Like a writer type thing. Well, kind of like okay, you know, we would play some music. It would be kind of a house show. We'd play some music and then we would do this from there.
Speaker 4:How would we do that?
Speaker 1:Well, we would just set up, set up in a living room, and the people have to leave.
Speaker 3:No, they stay in the live audience.
Speaker 2:They're with us.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Picture them sitting all around right now. Kind of like the thing we did in Montana. We did a show in the winter in Montana.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we have talked about this.
Speaker 1:We've done some private shows that have been great because people have like to invite their friends.
Speaker 4:We've told them all about this private show.
Speaker 3:We've not talked about me fishing but.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, he paid us a sum of money.
Speaker 4:It felt a little like we were prostitutes.
Speaker 1:It was weird because he was like videoing it, showing his friends, and then it was like, yeah, they're here and we'd be like, okay, what do you want to hear next? And he would say a song.
Speaker 2:We'd be like what do you want to hear next?
Speaker 1:Maybe we should have a minimum. Yeah, I mean, I already have some interest from Phoenix. Do you guys want to go to Phoenix?
Speaker 3:in the winter. In the winter, yes, In the winter. For sure, Florida for sure.
Speaker 1:The Phoenix people are like an hour north in the mountains.
Speaker 3:Oh fun fun.
Speaker 1:I've actually been talking to this. Her name's Tammy. She and I have been back and forth about this for probably a year, so that's a place we could go. It would be fun, wouldn't it? It would be awesome.
Speaker 2:Okay, so our listeners right now are going to be the ones that are going to want to book us. Yeah. So hit us up if you want us to come to your city.
Speaker 1:Definitely Hit us up. I've got two or three things I want to talk about. You mentioned the word, the phrase intimacy disorder last weekend. I want to get into that a little bit. Jennifer's excited about that topic. I want to get into this question. I want to ask I thought maybe for this season, for this fall, I would come in with one big question. Oh and so I'm going to ask that. The first our daughter, who we mentioned last week. She's been coming into the bedroom at her curfews at 11.
Speaker 4:she usually well, minimum of an hour late. Listen, that's not our curfew. We've never met, put a curfew on it's the law. It's the law. She's supposed to be home by 11.
Speaker 1:she comes rolling in at midnight yeah I mean jennifer usually texts her like 11 45 saying babe, you know it's. And she was.
Speaker 4:Do you think you're going to be much later?
Speaker 1:Do you guys wait up for her.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2:That's the thing for me. That's why I'd have to make it earlier, because I can't stay up until midnight.
Speaker 1:Well, I just don't wait up. I mean, I'm like just go there. Well. I have to wait Anyway so the other day she was at a friend's house for just hanging out and for the fun of it they all got on the treadmill.
Speaker 4:Well, not at the same time, but they were all being dumb. She was on it with socks running, and her friend's like I'm going to be your trainer, Sadie. So she cranked it up as fast as she could. Sadie, come here.
Speaker 2:Is she in the house? Huh, come here. I just heard the toilet seat slam not too long ago, yeah.
Speaker 1:So she Come here now.
Speaker 4:So we want to know what the drama You're going to be grounded.
Speaker 1:She comes in and gives us the drama Look at her legs, Drew.
Speaker 2:I can't see the light. Yeah, oh, good Lord, I see bandages on your knees.
Speaker 3:How fast what?
Speaker 1:number were you at on the treadmill? I don't know. I wasn't controlling it. I'm being forced against my will. The kids just started going up on the treadmill Instead of jumping off, she just grabbed the bar on the front.
Speaker 3:She's dropped off the side and dragged me.
Speaker 1:Sadie, put your legs up a little bit. You can kind of see them when they're in the camera.
Speaker 2:Oh man, she has a band-aid on them, so you can't see it?
Speaker 4:yeah, she has treadmill road rash she, the skin is off.
Speaker 2:I take this one when oh, I might throw up no, don't know the gram.
Speaker 4:No, don't know hands. No, what they want, yeah, what I'm here.
Speaker 2:I'm glad Sadie's first appearance was a yeah, a wheel, an injury looks like she's in my PJs.
Speaker 4:It looks like I just died Buckshot all over that shirt.
Speaker 2:Seriously, where is that shirt? I think you have a moth issue.
Speaker 4:I don't know Mimi gave it to me A moth issue.
Speaker 1:Mimi thought I needed this shirt. Mimi got it out of storage.
Speaker 4:Yeah, really.
Speaker 1:All right, so show the other leg.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you can be done. Show what happens to you, just naturally. Just show you all your mosquito bites no, babe, this is mosquito bite oh, that's not that's my leper. That's mosquito bites yeah, she gets we should not be living here, she's anyway all right, you can be done, thank you.
Speaker 2:That's good, that's a good appearance.
Speaker 3:I love you what'd you.
Speaker 2:you say Okay, that went well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that went great we might have to cut that out? No, we're keeping it for sure. Anyway, before we get in, are you guys moving? You had said before we started that you are meeting with Realtor today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. We're kind of getting everything ready in case we want to make a quick exit. Are you doing boxes and stuff? No, no, no, we're not at that point, just getting our house ready to be sold. If we want to do that, you know four big stressors right.
Speaker 1:Four big psychological stressors Birth slash death in the family, obviously, marriage slash, divorce, job change and moving, even if it's across town. Really yeah, because you go through the boxes and you think of everything and then you've got the memories and it dredges up. I bet Jamie would say that they say if you can try to avoid doing multiples of those at the same time don't get a divorce. Change your job and move and move you know what we?
Speaker 1:We normally do Like we go somewhere for a job change and we go. Why am I so stressed? Well, duh.
Speaker 2:Our deal is we can actually live in a nicer house in a cheaper part of town. I didn't know there was a cheaper part of town. Well, cheaper than where we're at now is what I'm saying Really. So we can sell our house and because we bought it at such a good time and we don't need to be in that spot anymore for the schools, right. And so we're like, well, we could literally sell our house, make a crap ton of money, be completely out of debt, all our cars, everything that's still put a huge chunk of money down on our next house.
Speaker 2:We still have equity in that house and be living in a brand new house, instead of having to fix up the last decade of kids, wear and tear and dollars. So we have a realtor coming over. You need to do that. Looking at like, well, what do we actually need to do? Like we need to redo the carpets and paint it and what like, just to get ready and then just watch, as a, as an interest rate, see what they do and then that's true if they start going down and we're it's a good, they're supposed to so crap ton well, crap ton of money, crap ton of money is you don't obviously.
Speaker 4:We learned last week that you don't enjoy downtown anyway that's, that is my whole thing, why live down? I live in frank totally.
Speaker 2:I love the idea of where we're at. We're one mile from downtown. We can ride our bikes down there. We live right next to the park, yeah you have a great idea and we never go Right Ever. Well, I shouldn't say ever, but very rarely. I mean I go work downtown probably a day or two a week. You sit at the bakery. No, you, never in the bakery, never in the bakery.
Speaker 4:I either go to like this is dr peppers here? I've never had no other great are they great?
Speaker 1:yeah, dr pepper never even I've never ventured into the.
Speaker 2:McAvis is great because they've got the hotel lobby. You can go in as well, and then also when it's nice out, like we had that day that we had Our day of autumn. I went out in that beautiful courtyard.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:I do like the new.
Speaker 2:The.
Speaker 1:Beesons like it. You'll see them down there.
Speaker 4:They mostly do nighttime.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:My foot's asleep, sorry. What's the new spot? I like a lot the Stable Reserve.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's nice when I want to feel, bougie, I'm old. That's a new spot I like a lot the Stable Reserve. Yeah, I go there. Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great when I want to feel bougie.
Speaker 4:It is bougie.
Speaker 1:I'm old school, I mean I'm at the bakery every day. You're a Marity's guy. Yeah, if you come to Franklin and you visit Marity's, you will for sure see me.
Speaker 4:I feel you Matter of fact back when it was like a video cast, I did it at Meredith's.
Speaker 1:We had to go in at 5.30 before the people arrived.
Speaker 4:You had Mia on Mia Fields on there.
Speaker 1:I had Mia Jason Ingram. Mark Schultz came on. I had to try to find those. Mia wants to come on, she's got a baby. I've texted Jason I don't know what he's doing and Schultz, you know he would have to be remote and I've said, man, we're not doing like Weaver wants to come on, schultz wants to come on, but they want to do it like from their house and I'm like we don't do that. They live here. You come to the Boney apps to do this podcast.
Speaker 3:They live in this area. Well, he lives in. Mount Juliet, yeah Mount.
Speaker 1:Juliet.
Speaker 2:And Schultz is in.
Speaker 1:North Carolina, I think.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. Well, maybe we do his on the road. We could.
Speaker 3:We could meet.
Speaker 4:Schultz Ooh, maybe we do that. That'd be great, that would be fun.
Speaker 1:Can we unpack intimacy disorder for a minute, can you? Give us just like a synopsis, because that which we have, I think, by the way, I know I do Do I have to take the snake from you?
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:Because you're Speaking of intimacy disorder. I was in Florida over her birthday and I just sent her a bunch of these snakes because I know she loves them.
Speaker 4:Because I love them. So this was my birthday present. Happy birthday to me.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is fun.
Speaker 4:I love to fidget with stuff, birthday present Happy birthday to me.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is fun. I love to fidget with stuff.
Speaker 4:I'm such a fidgeter. If you have that, I have to you're not even looking up.
Speaker 2:I mean you guys told me, I wasn't allowed to draw on the table anymore. You can, it's just.
Speaker 1:I think I'm out of paper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought that was the point.
Speaker 4:Draw it If you want to draw on the table.
Speaker 1:go for it, I don't care. I mean I have this is fun.
Speaker 4:That's fun, isn't it? It's fun, the clicking is fun. Yeah, Talk about your talk amongst yourself.
Speaker 1:Talk about your intimacy disorders.
Speaker 4:Talk about your issues.
Speaker 2:If you want to see what one looks like. I don't know that. I'm the expert on this at all. I think what I'm learning is my intimacy disorders came from a lack of being able to show up and emotionally connect and feel my feelings in a healthy way with other humans. So it's an avoidancy For me. It is For me it is. It's a bit of a connection issue. Or the way I get love and affirmation. I get it in unhealthy ways, either through performance or you know.
Speaker 1:So we're not talking about physical sexual stuff.
Speaker 2:No, Is it like an avoidance of vulnerability, kind of If someone really knew me, they wouldn't really love me. Oh, okay, so it's, how do I show up in the world Honest, yeah, how do I set boundaries? How do I, you know, learn how to not have to manage other people's thoughts, feelings and actions? And and how do I learn just to be okay by myself, Like, how do I, you know if and not need other people to feel better? Yeah, so, whether that's the affirmation or you know, because I grew up in the church, I grew up as a pastor's kid- and what I learned from an early age is when you go through trauma.
Speaker 2:There there wasn't space to feel what we needed to feel because we had to continue to present ourselves a certain way for the people in the church, so they would keep showing up. So as long as we were performing and presenting well as a family, people will keep showing up to our church, which means we get to. Unfortunately, that's the way you survive, that, the way you you do and get through it. Problem is you go through a lot of pain and you don't carve. I didn't carve out space and my parents at the time, although they're and this is we talked about sadness and pain last episode. The hard part for me is I have such amazing parents, so it was really difficult. I think freud is one that said no one gets out of childhood unscathed yeah, so it's like it's really difficult.
Speaker 2:It was difficult for me to actually give myself permission to go back to my childhood and realize there was things I needed that I didn't get from my parents. I was defensive over them. No, they're freaking awesome. They're great parents. They gave us everything we needed and most of the things we wanted, and so but both my parents doing the best they could with what they were given came from families where, emotionally, didn't know how to connect and show up. So, as my parents were dealing with all the crap going on in the church and they're trying to survive themselves, they didn't have the emotional margin to be able to look down at me and my brothers and be like, hey, are you guys okay? What do you guys need? To be able to look down at me and my brothers and be like, hey, are you guys okay? What do you guys need, are you good? And it was like we have to, like, keep this show going.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I was raised in that and then I followed in the footsteps of the family business. So there's basically 40 years of my life was taught that you can't be honest and if you're fully honest and people know who you really are, they're going to's hard, major trust issues and all that kind of stuff. So that's for me.
Speaker 2:A clinician might give you a better definition, but for me that's what intimacy disorder means, which is even with my wife. It's like, hey, can I, instead of trying to manage and manipulate her thoughts, feelings, actions, emotions, everything else, can I just show up to her? This is who I am, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I need, and allow her, like a healthy interdependence, like allow her to meet me in that spot and if she can't, I've got me as an adult that I know where I can go to get my needs met in a healthy way, which is usually when the healthy relationship with other men yeah, and that's never something that I've been great at yeah Well that word, the phrase healthy male intimacy, would have been for so long, so scary for all of us to even say.
Speaker 4:Right, because it's got so many weird connotations.
Speaker 1:Our friend Thaddeus taught me a ton about healthy male intimacy. You know his life's work involved a lot of taking guys through those processes. The intimacy thing, though that was the word that you said in the last episode that I thought we should look at this a little bit because that, if I'm sort of just here in intimacy disorder for the first time, I know a lot of our listeners are too, and yeah well, a lot of our listeners are too.
Speaker 2:And yeah, well, a lot of people go to sex, like that's what I think, oh yeah, that's what I thought too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you're fine with that Not saying that Everything's in that area Whoa, whoa, whoa, don't you dare.
Speaker 4:Nobody hey for me.
Speaker 2:Me it really has very little. I mean, I think that's being known and well, that's what? Yeah, I think healthy sexuality is a byproduct of connection and not using someone else to feel better. Yeah, so I mean, that's part of it for sure, but I think it's doing a major disservice. Well, like the therapists at valiant that I the place that I went for treatment and the place right now is a client of mine they say every addict that comes in, whether it's a sex addict, a crack addict, it's all intimacy disorder, it's all I. I'm choosing this thing to escape having to show up to my life in an honest way, and I don't know what to do with pain, I don't know what to do with sadness or whatever emotion or loneliness, so this thing makes me feel better, or or numb out where I don't have to feel at all. So they're like everyone comes in here with intimacy disorder. Oh my gosh, it's just their.
Speaker 1:Their escape is yeah, so you could avoid intimacy because of an intimate intimacy disorder, or you could binge on fake intimacy, yeah, intimacy disorder, or you could binge on fake intimacy, yeah, like a illegitimate intimacy because of an intimacy I'm just going now this gives me. You know, I've been thinking since you said it, I've been thinking about it and, uh, it's not kind of a thing like I. I mean, sure I can go to, I have it, I could, just I'm more. Where does it show up in the world?
Speaker 3:Where does it?
Speaker 1:show up in our thing. Where does it show up? You know, it's kind of like the Enneagram Once you see it, you just can't unsee it.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's kind of beautiful because everyone has it, whether they realize it or not. Yes, it's kind of like addiction, in my opinion. Everyone has it, whether they realize it or not yes, it's kind of like addiction.
Speaker 2:in my opinion, everyone's an addict. Yeah, it just depends on whether they recognize, hey, when I, everyone's a user. When I feel yeah and I love that you use that word, because addiction addict all that kind of stuff people immediately dismiss themselves. So I'm not an addict because I don't smell crack, I'm like, yeah, well, what, okay, great, let's put that on the shelf then. Good job. Yeah. And a big word in recovery is yet If you're sitting in a room and you're hearing someone share and you're like, well, at least I haven't done that, the response to yourself is yet, yeah, if you continue to go down these roads. I mean, no one's set out to be in the ditch, right, that's not where you start like, yeah, you know, for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:so I think it's really, I think, comforting to be able to take a step back and be like we all have that thing that is potentially unhealthy, that we go to when we feel feelings that we don't know what to do with. Yeah, and so we're users is a better word or you, you know escape artists, whatever you want to call it, and some of them is not nearly as destructive as others, you know, but we all have that thing. It's just a matter of okay. Now I need the tools to learn how to turn to healthier copes for when product placement Well, I sort of bring this because I want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Sponsored, sponsored by. Well, you know, I wonder what was going on placement.
Speaker 2:Why I sort of bring this? Because I'm sponsored by uh well you know what was going on.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that um gets misunderstood about addiction and addicts and users is, you know, those of us who aren't in a ditch because we didn't get crack or hair. We're going well. They just use that to feel good and my understanding of it is they use it to feel normal or yeah good or nothing. Good is you know, there are other things we can do to feel good.
Speaker 4:There we're, we're using to feel normal, um and so don't you think it's also just to feel nothing Like, isn't that?
Speaker 1:sure, sure but.
Speaker 4:I mean, once you're addicted, yes, you need it to feel normal, but Well, I think, I mean, I think we're doing it to avoid pain.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm taking what you're, what you're saying. I think you're exactly right. You're addicted to that snake.
Speaker 1:I am totally that snake to snakes that this is interesting because we didn't plan this out. But the question I want to talk about today and I'm not just doing this because it's in my book, although I would love to give it about my book, but one of the examples I want to use and I wanted to. I wanted to know what chapter it was. That's why I say to bring it to me. The question is what paint? Pain comes from things we learn to be true. You know, christians focus a lot on lies.
Speaker 4:Why are you making that face? I'm just. I hate when you spring something on me.
Speaker 1:You're making that face. What's that? I'm going to spring this, no, cause you're going to ask me a question.
Speaker 4:You're going to ask a question. I usually take a long time to come up.
Speaker 1:No, me a question. Yeah, you're gonna ask a question and I usually take a long time to come up. No, so here. Here, I think, is one of the the falsehoods that we get into as christians. We're going well that satan has lies and we believe lies and actually, if we know that they are lies, we usually don't believe them. We believe things that actually are true and then we learn to work in that system. So the example I use is I talk about this story in my, in my book. I won't see what chapter it is. That's why I brought this out here. Do you need glasses? I have some right here. By the way, one thing we didn't talk about last episode is you got glasses this summer. Yeah, I'm not wearing them on today.
Speaker 4:I know because I'm throwing the staircase.
Speaker 3:They're so annoying.
Speaker 4:No, these are mine over here. Those are para readers. I just I hate it. I hate wearing glasses but she's got like legit glasses they're a prescription, but we you want, I really want contacts, because they just get dirty. Would you do?
Speaker 2:LASIK you ever thought about that Kind of weird A laser in the eye?
Speaker 4:I think, I think I would. Maybe, though, because I hate this.
Speaker 1:This is awful, the glasses thing. You were asking a question. Well, no. So I wrote about this Experience I had when I, when I learned, when I was kind of contemplating this, this question About what? What have you believed? What did you start believing as a child? Uh-huh, that actually I turned out to be true, but that it's a sad reality of the world. So I in fourth grade, my fourth grade teacher, mrs steinberg, would let the kids elect the student of the month. So it wasn't like the teachers picked the student of the much. You know that we would. We would all decide who the student of the month was, and I think it, I think she tried to make it be based on some kind of character thing but, I was never student of the month, like you know.
Speaker 1:I was a straight C student.
Speaker 2:You know, I was just I was just hard to do. I was not dip up to a B or a D.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was just trying to stand visible in elementary school you know, just even up to a B or a D. I was just trying to stand visible in elementary school. Even though you were gifted, I somehow was in the whatever. That is where they take away six or eight kids and you do puzzles because you're gifted Whatever that is.
Speaker 4:I was started by the CIA.
Speaker 2:You do puzzles.
Speaker 4:I was started by the CIA to eventually bring those kids into that. Those are kids who are good at thinking differently.
Speaker 1:So I was being groomed to be in the CIA. You were being groomed by the CIA.
Speaker 4:How cool would that be.
Speaker 1:Well, they didn't stay with me.
Speaker 2:We're not sure that he's not.
Speaker 4:He didn't Trump.
Speaker 1:I didn't what.
Speaker 4:You didn't try.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing I heard most as a kid is he doesn't apply himself. So when you don't apply yourself, this is where you get. Anyways, can you imagine?
Speaker 2:where you'd be if you would apply yourself. Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1:So that summer Dad bought me a really nice boombox, one of the Panasonic really cool boomboxes that were in all the Breakdance videos. I had one with the two speakers and Brian had the one with the one speaker. Like the mono boom box was so dorky and our birthdays are close to each other and bribe is the one speaker boom box he did apply himself you already got him, he's given out yet he's given out, yet um, he's giving out he's
Speaker 2:giving out. Yeah, his villain origin story was the moon box I'm peddling books.
Speaker 3:He's giving him employees, his employees, yetis anyways.
Speaker 1:So I had the two speaker boom box and for whatever reason I didn't know this it was completely unplanned I brought my boombox into school one day to show my friends and everybody liked it, Whatever it sat on. Miss Steinberg was like it's great, Jeremy, you can set it on the windowsill. And that day was the day we were electing student of the month and they elected me student of the box Because of your cool boombox.
Speaker 1:It's the only reason. Oh, because you're a boombox, because you're a cool boombox, it's the only reason. But I remember learning that day a little bit more how the world works.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it unfortunately. It's true. I can't be like that's the lie of the enemy. No, it's actually true.
Speaker 4:That's actually how the world works.
Speaker 1:This is part of how the system works. That's actually true. That's actually how the world works. This is part of how the system works. Is that you show up with the right gear or this thing and it says something about you, and all of a sudden people go well, he's student of the month for sure, he's got a two-speaker boombox.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean and so that is, and so I've actually, you know, I learned how to function in that system and unfortunately it's part of the way. It is the way the world works. It even is the way the industry works.
Speaker 4:And I tell people.
Speaker 1:I tell people look, I'm a unicorn, I don't have church hurt and I don't have industry hurt. I still go to church. I know that it's not perfect, but I still love it. I know the industry is not perfect, but it was. You know we, we had a great run and I still love it. I like Christian music. You know what I mean. Like I don't have those two big things, but I also know that this has this key point to this thing I wrote down, um. This key point to this thing I wrote down, um. This thing is also true. Yeah, I learned how to work that system and it might've served me for a while, but it then it didn't, and I had to unlearn that system, how that system works. And so the question is what are the things? What's something that you guys learned, that you had, that you're working to unlearn?
Speaker 4:even though it is, you know. Warning on these things, babe, do you?
Speaker 1:want me to send these out the night before maybe he said no, you won't, you won't read it.
Speaker 2:No I mean so you'll have answer.
Speaker 4:I'll have an answer for you tomorrow. Go ahead, I'll have to think about it.
Speaker 1:But so what? What is something? And for the listeners, like it's not, like what is the lie that the enemy told you, Like it actually is no, what's true about the world?
Speaker 2:that you've learned why I agree with you. I think there's there's a lot of. I think there's a lot of pain that happens when you become awake to realities okay, it's a reality it's like an innocence lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah like there's a like, because I see it happen all the time and it happened for me and a lot of people, including myself start out really angry, like angry at parents, angry at until they like go through a grieving process at something that was lost or not given or there was a need, kind of like we talked before there was a childhood need that you didn't get, and now you feel like, especially if you start doing inner child work and stuff like that, you start feeling really. I started feeling really bad from young Andrew Like hey, that wasn't fair.
Speaker 1:Like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like Andrew yeah, you're like that wasn't. That's not cool, he couldn't you know. Choice in that he could help himself. Who. Someone should have been defending him. So I should look out for him, like what's going on? And now, as an adult, that's me, I get to be that guy. Yeah, I get to defend him and look out for him and hear him cry out for help and be like, hey, there's, there's an adult in charge. Now I got you You're good the whole reparenting stuff.
Speaker 1:But you're not. What's interesting is you're not going back. If we were doing the tree ring thing and I had, are you 40 yet? Yeah, 42. Okay. So if I had 42 tree rings on there and we looked at like say where is where's that coaster, that we saw at like say where is you know where's that coaster?
Speaker 3:that we saw. Oh, I think I did yeah, so this might have some things on it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they're, these are hard to see. But if we were to go back and, you know, find 11-year-old little Andrew, we're not going to him. All those are lies. Don't believe that we're going. Yeah, buddy, yeah, you found out. Like people with boom boxes, they you know, I mean pretty people make more money. People with more symmetrical faces become more famous, like it is true. Now, what do we do with?
Speaker 3:that truth yeah.
Speaker 1:So what's something that you found to be true, that you're sad about? Yeah?
Speaker 2:So what's something that you've found to be true that you're sad about? I think one of the things I found out to be true is that and I don't want to say this right, maybe you understand is that the American evangelical church is not only gets most people about halfway through their spiritual journey, and what I mean by that is the church. Historically, I'm going to make some really broad statements. So I don't I've not been to every church in America so I don't know. But most churches I've had experience with they're good at the first three stages of someone's. You know it's called critical journey worship, which is these are really good things and the church is really good at this, by the way which is I just met God, I just discovered that there's a God and he exists and he loves me, and there's this all like let me show up and get lost in worship. This emotional experience. This is awesome, man, a lot of. We need it. Like that's a huge. I mean, it's a beautiful entry step.
Speaker 2:Step one Most churches say okay, now that you know that, what you need next is you need to be educated, you need to learn more about God and you need to do that in community, you know. So that's we're going to do all that stuff here. That's great Small groups and community, whatever. And the third step if you want to be a well-rounded disciple of Christ, now you're going to serve, you're going on a mission trip, you're going to hold the front door for people, you're going to be working kids ministry. The most churches are really good at those three steps and they would say, if you're doing those three things, you're a fully formed, mature disciple of Christ. Well, congratulations, you're halfway through the critical journey.
Speaker 2:The next step to actually get to like surrender and true, like love is to go through which pain the wall, yeah, which, by the way. Like our Catholic brothers and sisters, they start out their journey knowing there's going to be a season called the dark night of the soul. That, like that's ingrained, like we just evangelicals put our head. So when someone hits the fourth step, which is the wall, and all of a sudden, the scriptures they learn and all that stuff is not working for them, is this all there is? Worship is not what it used to be. I'm not moved by that anymore. What the church tells them to do is you got to go deeper into step one, two and three as a solution. Most people are like that just doesn't work.
Speaker 1:for me, worship doesn't work for me and then people leave and the church fumbles the ending.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. The church, the way it's built right now, doesn't know what to do with pain and brokenness.
Speaker 1:Or is it impossible to do it in the context that we have?
Speaker 2:made. I don't know Could be. I don't know the answer to that. I just know that when the answers, the Sunday school answers, stop making sense, most churches don't know how to walk with people through the buzzword, the deconstruction and the reconstruction. Like it's just like well, I don't know what to tell you, just keep showing up on Sundays and keep being a small group, keep serving, and maybe eventually it'll go away and for most people like well, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think for me it goes back to that, because I was raised in the church of like I think I was really disappointed and sad when I realized that the church was not going to be able to show up for me in the ways that I needed. Fast forward to where I'm now, to the work. I'm okay with that. Like I actually now see the beauty in the first three steps, but you had to accept it, I had to accept it and it was tough, and especially tough when I felt like I'd given a lot to it and when I needed it it didn't know how to show up for me.
Speaker 1:Grief and acceptance and contentment all live in the same space. So you want that contentment part, the shalom. You're going to be faced with grief and acceptance.
Speaker 4:It's just you know, when I think I'll let Jennifer go, cause she's got a bunch, she's I think.
Speaker 2:On a very personal note, I think one thing that was very difficult and painful for me to realize is, like we talked earlier, is that I didn't get everything I needed from my parents and I needed more attention. I needed more emotional connection. I needed them to ask how I was doing so. As anagram seven, I developed the narrative of like who's gonna care for, who's gonna take care of me? Like, so now and this, this shows up an intimacy disorder in my marriage. I don't have any aspect expectations for Jamie thing. I don't need help with anything. I I got this. I got I'm going to take cause.
Speaker 2:No one at the end of the day is going to look, care for me. The Calvary is not coming. The Calvary is not coming. If I got to handle it, I got to take care of it and I got to perform, or everyone's going to leave you. It's just a matter of when. I mean, these are the narratives, anybody. So just keep performing, but at some point it's going to go sideways. Yeah, um gosh, there's so much dread in that. Yeah, well, there's a. So, yeah, it's hard to be, it's hard to have connection, because why would you connect with someone that's going to leave you.
Speaker 1:So you just never, you know, you just never let yourself go there and so sure you know, yeah, you guys live you know, you, even though we're talking about sevens and fives or whatever. You guys do live on that side of the Enneagram which is I will take care of this.
Speaker 4:That was one, of mine was. Well, I have two.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:One of my first.
Speaker 1:So these are truths that you realize to be true, that are when I was younger.
Speaker 4:I mean like when you're saying like boombox time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I remember, if you can make the outside look okay, that's the only thing that matters.
Speaker 1:People will stay around.
Speaker 4:People will stay around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not too scary, as long as you can keep that looking okay. What's the outside?
Speaker 4:Like, if you dress, okay, okay, if you can. You know, I mean we shopped most days. My mom took us to the mall and we I mean it was all about how we looked on the outside yeah, and then the other was never let them see you sweat. I mean, never let anyone know they're getting to you ever which does keep people close. Yes. It works and it keeps people far away at the same time.
Speaker 4:But, because, because if you do that's, I mean it was like always have an ace Never let anyone see your cards.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, and I that's my big struggle Still. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:You've done a lot better with vulnerability, though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it's.
Speaker 1:You did a lot of work in your 20s.
Speaker 4:It's still very hard for me. I mean with you. I feel like I finally trust you, but I mean, it has taken me, it probably took me at least 20 years to trust you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:With that at least.
Speaker 1:But you know what, in God's amazing kindness, I was a model citizen during that. As far as trust is concerned, You're trustworthy.
Speaker 2:Right during that as far as trust is concerned, you're trustworthy.
Speaker 1:Well, because I also, for whatever reason, knew that about her, that I don't know how I knew it, but I knew that trust was a transaction, that it is earned, and I was like I. I mean, I've seen enough broken marriages to know I don't, I don't need to taste that cheesecake to know that it's anyways. But back to the, the true thing. Broken marriages to know I don't, I don't need to taste that cheesecake to know that it's anyways. But back to the, the true thing, the thing that is true is both of the all those words. If you got a person you go so-and-so, never gets rattled. Yeah, we can. You know what I mean. Like it is true, it works, but it's sad.
Speaker 2:But, and also on the other side of it, if you've done your work and you're trying to live different, it's freaking lonely, yes, because you realize those things. And then you're like well, I have a choice to make. I can either go into survival mode, do what I've always done, which I hate. I don't like being that person I don't like, and it's always a ticking time bomb. Right, it's like it's never, it's always a matter of when is it going to explode, not, if it does, whenever. So you're always waiting for the bottom to fall out. Always there's a scarcity mindset around relationships and everything else. Or you want to show up honest and real and not play that game anymore and you realize, well, that's not how the world works.
Speaker 2:No one else is right it feels like and this is not true, but it feels like, well, no one else is trying to show up this way, and so when you do find someone that you can have a genuine honest connection with or you're not using one another it's like it's so refreshing. Yeah, and I it's hard. I find that when I go back and I'm hanging out with my brothers in rehab because they're in the thick of it well and they're they've been caught. Yeah, yeah, they're saying they have nothing.
Speaker 4:They have nothing to lose.
Speaker 2:They have nothing to lose anymore. They're like, well, I'm here in rehab. It wasn't working for me and what I like about the particular one I go to, these are all mostly all guys in 30s, 40s and 50s who have been very externally successful and have finally found themselves in a place where they have to come to terms with. It's not been working for me. So I love it because they're finally and some of them are in denial and I mean it's messy, right, it's not like, but all the has gone away. Yeah, it's like we're not faking, we're not pretending, and that's. It's been hard for me to re-engage in the church world because I want to just be like I, I, I just I wish we had environments where more leaders and pastors could just be honest. I would respect it more.
Speaker 4:I think it's also that imposter thing of I can't let people know Because I don't know what the crap I'm doing and I'm such a shallow. There's only this much depth here. That's how I always felt Like if people knew, they really wouldn't like me.
Speaker 2:Well, because, like you said, or like the truth is, people are showing up because they're looking at for an ideal. My life isn't that way and what they're projecting from stage seems like a better way to live and want to be, and you know, and so, and the system's not built for it. So if pastors, artists, whatever, started just being authentic and whatever, they would lose their jobs, they'd lose their careers Maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing. I think what you're saying is, if I let people see, the truth is you can't predict what they would do, right? So it's really like work.
Speaker 4:But I mean, that's the feeling of right, if they, if they knew how I mean, I know, I know there's nothing to this. It's literally just an outside Right Veneer, but that because on the inside it's empty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that makes life more predictable. Right, Like we're mammals, and what all mammals want is to stay alive, and so we look first and foremost. Even as babies, we look for predictability. If I cry, they come, and so we're looking for, or they don't. Or they don't, but we're looking for predictability. And then one day somebody brings a boom box and they go, and so you're like, oh, I flipped this switch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this recipe works, so it's predictable, predictable. But the problem is, the whole problem with God, is that what you learn is that you get so much following God except predictability. That's the thing it's like when, maybe when Jesus said, if you want to follow me, you got to save your life, he should have said lose your life. He should have said you lose all predictability. Because that is what you do lose you just don't get to know.
Speaker 2:I felt like he did try to warn us quite a bit about like being in the moment and tomorrow take care of itself and, you know, daily bread, I mean, even the way he taught us to pray is like pray for what you need today, you know, and I'm like, well, that doesn't help my anxiety about how I'm going to provide for this next semester of whatever, it's like private school but the truth is I have what I need today, yeah, but I'm not worried about, I'm not thinking about today, I'm way out in the future, about.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where you guys do share that. You both are out, you both are figuring out what comes next. Yeah, those of us over in the heart space, we're regretting what already happened.
Speaker 4:Well, I do that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you kind of have it coming, I like to do both. You have it coming and going, I like to do all kinds of those. So yours. So the thing you learned to be true is that if you keep together, you keep people close, but also far away.
Speaker 2:Perception of intimacy maybe.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean because you don't want people too close. That's too scary.
Speaker 1:Jennifer and me. We know a person whose mom told them you can do anything you want as long as you don't get fat. Unfortunately, there's some truth to it. That's the problem with that stuff. It's not really a lie, right? I mean, maybe you can't do anything you want, but life will probably be easier life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, yeah right yeah, those stereotypes exist for a reason for sure. Yeah, you've been very vulnerable in this episode. Proud of you. I actually thought of something.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was great in here racking my brain going what's the thing I learned? That was a meaningful answer that was probably the um, that was probably the what's the word I'm looking for theme of my life. Until I, until it didn't work, until it was like oh crap until I had, until I had kids, until I had Hutch, really Until life hit the fan and you're like, oh yeah, this isn't about me anymore.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, what does that mean? Talk about that more.
Speaker 4:Well, I think when you have a kid, you're like okay, I now have to protect this.
Speaker 2:I'm not protecting me anymore. It's not just about protecting me.
Speaker 4:now I'm protecting this and that crap. You're not putting on this one.
Speaker 1:Do you think every mom does that though?
Speaker 4:I think they have that opportunity.
Speaker 1:But they don't.
Speaker 4:They don't necessarily go there, but I think there's the opportunity to go there. I think every mom probably I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think this is one thing that men can't understand.
Speaker 4:Maybe that's where God just woke me up. Maybe, but I do think there's a mama bear thing that happens. Yes, I do think so too, and I was like I'm protecting this from all of you know.
Speaker 1:I think, the difference between men and women and this is, I think, the only thing that men can do is go. Okay, we don't understand Is that I see you and the kids the same. Yes, I would lay down my life, but you see the kids different than you do your spouse.
Speaker 4:And I think moms should.
Speaker 1:I do think they should yeah Like I see, I see my brood.
Speaker 4:I don't know. You don't see us the same. I mean, I'm an adult who can make my own choices.
Speaker 1:But when you had Sadie and Hutch, I wasn't all of a sudden like, okay, this, I didn't feel like I had to keep them alive, right, you know what I mean? I didn't have that thing.
Speaker 4:That was like You're not like a penguin, Dad. I kind of felt like you needed to keep them. I'm not a penguin. You're not like a penguin, dad. I kind of feel like you need to keep them.
Speaker 2:I'm not a penguin. You need to keep them alive.
Speaker 1:for me, this is your problem.
Speaker 2:Well, I definitely felt a provision, like I felt not protection, but like now I got to provide, like I think even more so Cause when with Jamie was like again it goes back to it's hard for me. I just assume everybody is going to have the self efficacy to like get what they need, because I don't expect anybody else to give me what I need, right, so, learning to show up for my wife and be like let me have empathy towards what you might need before you ask and I'm just like, well, no, you would ask if you needed it, you would ask for it, right? Like hey, I really need a couple hours to myself. Well, when I need that, I go get it.
Speaker 4:So what do you think? Oh yeah, we have that. What do you think happens to a mom?
Speaker 1:though, though that doesn't Like, she feels that, but then she's like, because you said you have a choice.
Speaker 4:I don't know, you just don't do your work. That's the only thing I can figure. I mean because there's obviously moms out there who didn't go there.
Speaker 1:Because you, I would say in our 20s. I tell people you were the slipstream and I watched you get healthy. Well, that was when I was in my 20s, you were. I tell people you were the slipstream and I watched you get healthy.
Speaker 4:Well, that was around. I was in my 30s at that point, that was before kids, though something changed when you had Hutch yeah it was like oh because I started going to counseling right after I had Hutch not before.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it was, it was after because I was angry.
Speaker 4:remember, I was so angry and you were like you got to go talk to somebody.
Speaker 1:No, but we were seeing Alanita before.
Speaker 4:Mm-mm.
Speaker 3:Really it was after Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Okay, because Janelle didn't go. Janelle went first.
Speaker 4:Janelle yeah, my sister went.
Speaker 1:Okay First, okay, you're right. Then, yeah, it was after I had kids. That's right, because I'm picturing that house, all right. But I think there's something too. There's a whole other episode in what happens when you deny that thing the mama bear thing well, or the oh, I've got work to do, because remember, rich told us you either do it when your kid's a little or in your 50s, but not when they're.
Speaker 4:Yeah, usually, unless you hit a wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know Sure.
Speaker 4:You're not going to deal with it. Well, if you think about it.
Speaker 2:If, in an ideal world, if both parents in that situation have done done work and there's an interdependence, then, yeah, it makes sense. The kids, the kids can't get what they need. Yet you're, you're having to show up for your kids and give them what they need the best you can, so that they have what they need without you when they get older. In a healthy relationship, you have the ability to get what you need without the other person. Like the codependency is, is I feel like the other way around, where I can't get what I need unless you meet my needs. Now I'm like, well, I have to be willing to show up with Jamie. Hey, here's what I need. If she's like I can't give that to you, then I'm like well, fine, I'll call Jeremy and I'll you know, we'll talk about it or whatever. Like the other people in my life that I can connect with, don't call me that. No, I was just using an example.
Speaker 4:I would never no, you're not welcome to do that. He's too expensive. I can't afford him. Yes, he's so expensive. I wonder if mine too was, because mine was around, you know, because mine was like eating issues and stuff. So I wonder if mine was literally around. My body is not my own anymore and I cannot act out in the way that I normally would do. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like I so before that was the kind of true thing is I can work, I can work out my control thing with my body oh yeah, the problem is it's true?
Speaker 4:it's true, but I'm saying like but once your body is not your own anymore, no, you can't.
Speaker 2:That has to be so weird, by the way.
Speaker 4:It was hard.
Speaker 3:I had to eat when I was pregnant.
Speaker 4:You have to eat when you're nursing.
Speaker 3:Healthy.
Speaker 4:And I'm going on stage six weeks after having a baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 4:It was not healthy for me and so I mean there was a lot of anger around my body issues probably, and just not having I had all that control was taken away.
Speaker 1:So you said my body's not my own anymore.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like the lords, no, it was like it belonged no, well, it makes sense when you describe, like how you were raised and what, how you thought people gave and received love and then you're a public figure on stages and I mean it was terrifying people gave and received love and then you're a public figure on stages.
Speaker 4:And I mean gosh. It was terrifying. It was terrifying, but isn't that weird?
Speaker 1:as it became true, and then you used it for your advantage.
Speaker 4:What do you mean?
Speaker 1:Well, like, maybe that was the thing that you know, people who go on stage have to look a certain way.
Speaker 4:Well, they don't have to but in my brain they did. And I was like, if I can keep this all under control and just keep a lid on it, then you know.
Speaker 1:And if I can keep showing up with my boom box, yeah, and then you put those two things together and you're like oh, here we go, he's got the boom box.
Speaker 4:I just don't either. I got the boom. I can keep this, keep, control this way.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I mean, and then then it's like, oh, I can't do this anymore. I literally have no control.
Speaker 2:But to your point, on the surface it works. That's what that's what works.
Speaker 1:That's the point. Well, I mean, this would be something that we probably have to process later, but I don't want to say that you were my boom box, that that is. But for me it was like, oh, my, my value can increase if I bring in this boom box. There's no way I'm student of the month that day, and so for me it was like, oh, I got to keep her because my, my value is also. My value is this marriage. Ah yeah, and I'm. It's so gross, yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, especially in Christian circles, it's kind of true In Christian circles. It's absolutely true. I mean we've talked about that how our marriage was on display.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it had to be.
Speaker 2:That's why those environments are so tough. That's why those environments are so tough, it's tough.
Speaker 4:What do you do? What do you do if you're a?
Speaker 1:pastor. Well, did Beeson talk about this on the podcast or did he just sort of admit it to us when we were together? He said that on the first record or two he would keep us apart because that's dorky a guy and his wife out there. Yeah, Because it was a modern rock label. And then he saw how, oh, people love this. It was like, well, let's make sure the diapers are together.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I remember when it went from, people thought we were a brother and sister back when people read CDs, because we look kind of alike. I remember how it was like oh no, they're married. And then publishers started going hey, let's get you two together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, let get you two together. Yeah, let's put you on marriage magazine. Let's put you on yeah, right yeah and so.
Speaker 1:But that to me was even though it's true it was damaging because I was like, oh, what value do I even have outside my boom box or my? Uh, that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, it's nuanced, it's hard, it's hard for me to explain, but yeah, you know it was more of a sense it's so gross, it's more of a felt kind of thing. It's awful, all of it sucks.
Speaker 1:We got to go soon but I got to tell the story because you asked about the book.
Speaker 2:Big old honking book over there. This is a depressing episode.
Speaker 4:Maybe it just means depressed because I'm like I'm jacked up.
Speaker 2:I understand why you would say that, but I will say just this before we go to the book For those that are willing to wake up to that and experience that pain and that sadness, what's on the other side of it is really beautiful. It just takes going through the pain to get there and I hope that's not just me reframing. But it can be lonely. But when you do experience like true connection, when you're like this person loves me you know I mentioned Big Z that passed away. The reason why that's such a hard loss for me, because he was the first person in my entire life that I was fully myself with and he was like all right, that's cool man like yeah, he showed you that it doesn't make people move away.
Speaker 2:He didn't like me for what I was doing, who I was, whatever. We just happened to find ourselves in this rehab together, stuck here together, and we had a connection. We had a secrets exercise where we had to go through and tell everything about our life. It's any secret. We had both of us left things off the list in group therapy and found each other later and said hey, I left a few things off that list, but I need to tell you what they are. So he went to his grave and I'll probably go to my grave, being he's the only person that knows these things.
Speaker 4:You can tell us his he's gone?
Speaker 2:Yeah don't go.
Speaker 4:Just kidding.
Speaker 2:Well, let's just say he there was. He was educating me on things I didn't even know existed in the universe. I was like I don't know what to think about that, because I just learned that information for the first time.
Speaker 1:Remember that time just now I learned that.
Speaker 2:I was listening to Carmen and you were we won't even say what you were doing. Exactly so. I hear what you're saying because there's a lot of pain, but I actually envy the people that don't get to go through it, because they just end up living their life asleep. To these things.
Speaker 4:You don't envy them. You just said, you envy them.
Speaker 2:Well, no, no, I meant the opposite.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel I actually have empathy. I feel bad for the people that don't go through.
Speaker 4:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:Because it's a depth to life after that. Yeah, yeah, in some ways yeah.
Speaker 1:I think the thing that was kind of freeing for me in this exercise was okay, I'm not taking crazy pills. Like it's not a lie of the enemy, Like the world does work that way. I guess the lie in it is my value is for my boombox.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:So maybe to those fourth grade kids sure I was, but it helped me. It was like, okay, there is, there is a system that works this way, and I feel it because it's actually true. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like if I'm, if a man is rich and you know women are dating him for his money, that would be hard, but at least you know what I mean. Better for him to learn. Okay, it's true.
Speaker 2:And that's the developing, the tolerance for reality. This is how the world works. Whether I like it or not, it's how the world works. It doesn't have to be true for me and how I show up moving forward, but it's true that this is how the world works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people might be drawn to me because, you know, I have a friend who was like I. People were drawn him because he's funny. He was the funny one and he is funny.
Speaker 2:I feel like if you were less tan.
Speaker 4:I know people wouldn't like him.
Speaker 2:I don't think you'd be as likable like I'm picturing as a pale man and he was a pale man.
Speaker 4:I'm probably out. He's been pale.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 4:Yeah, back when he had the blonde tips. Yeah, he's pretty pale looking.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he doesn't look good blonde.
Speaker 2:It was rough I think you look great right now. I think you're kind of hitting your peak.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the salt and pepper is good. Honestly yeah, Salt and pepper is always good.
Speaker 2:Everything works. 50 is a good spot for me. Yeah, you're in a good way. Yeah, everything is kind of firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 1:Is it? Thank you Really. Of the two other people in the room, you're the one that thinks that.
Speaker 4:I'm just joking.
Speaker 1:Alright, the book. Well, so this was going to tie into Sadie, but I forgot to mention the book. So Sadie has been coming in at night and a lot of this, a lot of our focus right now, has been on Sadie, like what she's doing with school. And so the other night, because she's going to eventually have to take the S, the ACT, so Jennifer starts doing some ACT prep yeah, and I wish that somebody else could have been in there with us because she's opening this book. So I'm laying there.
Speaker 4:Well, he and I were going through the book. I'm doing it, I'm going to just try to figure it out.
Speaker 1:We're beside each other in bed and I'm laying there doing a crossword puzzle and she's reading me the questions.
Speaker 3:The math problems.
Speaker 1:And she gets to the math part and she goes okay. So 4 over 3, in parentheses with a little n, equals wait, squiggly equals. Wait, big check mark over 3. I don't even know what these things mean. She's like it's rough Big check mark with 3 over 4 in it with little b and I'm like so I was like wait, what so I look over at what she's trying to read, and we're both trying to figure out this problem and it literally is four over three, inside parentheses, with a little n Squiggly equals.
Speaker 4:Have you ever seen the squiggly equals? What the heck does that mean? Four over three in the big check.
Speaker 1:She called it big check mark.
Speaker 4:It's like this. It's like eh, eh, eh eh, isn't that division?
Speaker 1:So then, sadie comes in.
Speaker 4:I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1:It's a root, it's the sign, the root yeah, the square, I don't know, I don cubed Anyway. So Sadie comes in and she at least knows how to say what she's reading. Then she does a word problem and it's like Jan drives from Louisiana to New Orleans.
Speaker 4:Well, she's in Louisiana.
Speaker 1:Wherever she is.
Speaker 4:She's driving somewhere.
Speaker 1:And so she's reading the problem and she's trying to figure it out in her head.
Speaker 4:So she goes 10 miles an hour faster this time. Oh god, it's so hard. My mind goes to?
Speaker 1:why is jan gone to new orleans? Where's she doing? I need to talk to her, because new orleans isn't a good spot for her single girl to go by herself this you're missing the point. Yeah, and so it was. Just it's not as funny telling the story, but we're getting into this ACT prep. One of them is a triangle.
Speaker 4:Look at this book and she's trying to. This is an old one. Somebody gave me 2021.
Speaker 1:One of the problems is Gross. How much bigger is this side? And I said how would you do that? And she puts her thumb and her pointer finger.
Speaker 4:It was a geometry.
Speaker 1:I'm like if we were to do this Just turn it a little bit.
Speaker 4:And then there'd be a little bit left over, so it has to be this answer. That's how I would have done it when I took the ACT.
Speaker 2:And look at you.
Speaker 4:Look at me, I passed it. I didn't flunk. I don't think you can flunk the ACT. What did you get on it 21.?
Speaker 1:Which evidently is not that I wouldn't even get a one. I mean, we could not figure these answers out.
Speaker 4:Oh, I couldn't do it now To save our life, and so we're going 21 is very basic.
Speaker 1:Why would she go to New Orleans this time of night?
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 4:Shut my mouth. I love that.
Speaker 1:I mean like so anyways that's why I put the book up here, because I think it would be funny for the three of us to try to take the ACT and see what we get, oh my gosh it would be funny, but I would never do it.
Speaker 4:It costs money too.
Speaker 2:Even that it's not the money, I don't have the patience for it. You can just guess. As a seven.
Speaker 4:it's so not fun they went through and did B on every answer and I think they got like a 24. What that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It used to be C Bribe is he got? I talk about this in the book. Bribe is beat me on the SAT by 30 points and he's competitive. So we got our SAT results and he lived by the school and we went there every day. So we got there and we both opened our SAT results together and this is also in the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is also in the book. Yeah, and I probably did a little better than him on the english part and he probably. But anyways, he's like what'd you get? I was like I don't know if I want to tell you what'd you get, he goes, because you don't have to tell everybody your sat score. And he's like what would you get? I was like I don't know, you go first, he goes. No, you go first. I was like okay, 10, 30 and he looked at his. I looked at his face and I was like all right, 1030. And I looked at his face and I was like all right, what did you get? And he just smiled and goes 1060.
Speaker 2:Just barely, but he beat me. It was probably one question. He beat me on the SAT.
Speaker 4:But, you had two speakers on your boom box.
Speaker 1:I sure did, and which one matters that it's not like a bribe is and you're getting one speaker boom box. It's not like a bribe is in your one speaker boom box.
Speaker 4:That's right. Did you have two tape decks?
Speaker 1:No, I had a single tape deck.
Speaker 4:Oh lame, I don't think they came out with a double tape deck for a while, and what was the point of that?
Speaker 2:So that you could record it. You could record. I had the doubled one and I had the speaker that removed, so you could like.
Speaker 4:I remember that.
Speaker 1:So you could set that up in your room. Yeah, that was later though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're a lot younger than us. You're definitely.
Speaker 1:Not only did I have the two speaker boom box, I had the one that was like in the Michael Jackson videos, like I had the one that the break dancers carried on their shirt yeah, See. I was never the era where we were carrying no, I think it took 12 D cell batteries. Yeah, when you pop the battery compartment open, it was like. Yeah, it was a whole bag Just springs, and so we loaded it with 12 D cell batteries, but you know how funny that you hauled that baby to school.
Speaker 4:Oh man Well.
Speaker 1:And the thing is I didn't know it was student of the month day. It worked out. It worked out great. But then later, not long after that, I think someone had one with a TV in it.
Speaker 4:Oh, I do remember they did that for a minute, so it was a tape deck and then a TV. Oh, they were like he's out New student of the month.
Speaker 1:Student of the year.
Speaker 2:I don't even remember those with TV in it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was like for just a minute, really Big deal. Well, you could tune in the three channels. Rabbit ears on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my mom all had. She had a little one of those little portable TVs, so it was portable TV, so the front of it, you know if you're those people, People listening it was like a four-inch TV and then a speaker on the front. The problem is it was three times as deep.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When she picked it up to carry it, it was like a briefcase.
Speaker 4:And they used to be Amish. It's so funny to me.
Speaker 2:They always had all this, they had a hammer.
Speaker 4:Pupaw had the bag phone. I mean they were way in to like text.
Speaker 1:That was so funny to me. I mean they were way in to like text them. He loved gadgets man. I would just sit in his office and just open the drawers because it was gadget and watches.
Speaker 4:You'd never know that they were Amish. It's so funny.
Speaker 1:Except for the change purse.
Speaker 4:And the I'm speaking Dutch.
Speaker 1:That squeaking change.
Speaker 4:You know the little rubber change purse, the little rubber thing that you squeeze open and it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, I remember that you squeeze open and it. Oh yeah, yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 4:You squeeze in and it's like a little mouth, yeah, yeah, yeah he loved those In fact he sent us one. Not long before he died.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he sent us all change purses.
Speaker 4:Was that an Amish thing? I don't know what it was. I mean you said that like it was Amish.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I think all of those grandkids got. Oh my gosh, what was that?
Speaker 3:That's the garage. That was scary.
Speaker 2:It scared me. I thought we were dead.
Speaker 3:I was like what is happening to you?
Speaker 4:Rapture.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so.
Speaker 4:We're all still here If you don't live in the south.
Speaker 1:The bonus room is the room over the garage.
Speaker 4:It's the frog. We learned that on here, remember? Somebody told us it's called the frog.
Speaker 1:What is that though?
Speaker 4:room over garage.
Speaker 1:Finished room over garage.
Speaker 4:Yeah, finished room over garage.
Speaker 1:Do you guys have a frog room? Yes, okay, he wants to make this his bedroom, which would be optimal, but it gets so no door.
Speaker 3:Well, we'd have to put a door on it.
Speaker 4:We need to move too.
Speaker 1:You know why we need to move.
Speaker 4:Why?
Speaker 1:Because of all the crap that's in the garage.
Speaker 4:We've got to get rid of crap.
Speaker 2:Let's just buy a big property with two houses on it and farm life.
Speaker 1:We have a big property.
Speaker 4:We have a big property.
Speaker 1:We can only put one house on it. We kind of want to sell it and buy some property from Robb's. They're not on bed frames, they're on bins. Bins full of crap Bins full enough of stuff that a person can sleep on, so it's a mattress on bins.
Speaker 4:It's an air mattress on bins.
Speaker 3:We're high tech here.
Speaker 4:We're super high tech, we have so much crap and what's bad is we were given all this.
Speaker 1:Seriously, we didn't buy any of our stuff.
Speaker 4:All the stuff in our room. I mean most of it, Everything that we have. Have we bought anything? I don't think we bought any of our stuff.
Speaker 1:No, we didn't.
Speaker 4:Hutchie.
Speaker 1:Hey dude, I just told people you're going to be on the podcast again this season.
Speaker 4:So you're doing it. You want to come up and say, hi, we're doing a podcast.
Speaker 2:Drew's here, hey Hutch, wearing the same outfit.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're an hour and 15 in. We've been killing it. Yeah, all right, everybody, I hope you're back to school. Well, back to school was early in Tennessee, but in most places.
Speaker 4:I'm sure it's probably everybody's back to school.
Speaker 1:Middle of September is Pennsylvania. That's back to school. Yeah, oh yeah, really, yeah, old time. All right, everybody, we would love to hear from you Instagram. All right, everybody, we would love to hear from you. Instagram is just me, or this is my Jenstagram.
Speaker 4:The gospel, according to Jeremy.
Speaker 2:What's your name? Amplify 615.
Speaker 4:Amplify 615.
Speaker 1:You don't follow me personally. Why'd you put my credit score in there? Booch, that's what I told Jennifer. All these people walking around with 615 hats. I said they're all. That's my credit score.
Speaker 2:That's just a big reminder of.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty good bit, right, that's good. I asked her, I said that bit. I feel like Is it solid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of those ones you use over and over again. Your kids roll their eyes, but it works with new people. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It works with new people. Yeah, they weren't the new people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need to move back to California. Nine, nine, four, nine nine four, nine, yes. That's a good credit score.
Speaker 4:That's a good credit score.
Speaker 1:Three, one, four, the debt score.
Speaker 4:That's right, that's your, that's my people, that's.
Speaker 1:Tara's SAT score, you know, added another one. We'd love to hear from you, send your comments and anything you want us to talk about, and we'll hit you with another question next week. Bye, everybody.