GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Logical Imperative of Sustainable Mobility, with Gerwin de Boer
How do we create cities where people and not cars take centre stage? Mobility expert Gerwin de Boer takes us on a journey through the compellingly logical world of sustainable transportation planning.
De Boer approaches sustainable mobility not as an ideological crusade but as the only sensible solution for creating liveable urban spaces. Working with Goudappel, the Netherlands' premier mobility consultancy, he's helped transform Dutch cities through practical planning that prioritises people over vehicles, a blueprint for more functional, vibrant communities that Goudappel have exported across the world.
Our conversation explores how increasing urbanisation actually creates the perfect conditions for sustainable transportation. When cities are compact and well-designed, the need for extensive travel diminishes naturally. We discover how cultural contexts shape mobility choices—from extreme temperatures affecting cycling adoption to varying levels of government regulation influencing implementation strategies.
Ready to reimagine how we move through our cities? Listen now and join the conversation about creating urban spaces where sustainable mobility becomes the obvious choice.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Ge Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, Istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative and Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Reuven de Bois, the mobility and space advisor of GoodAppel, the leading consultancy firm in mobility planning in Netherlands. Goodappel is responsible for many of the design manuals that set the standard in mobility planning. Nowadays, they are also a trusted partner for nearly 90% of Dutch cities and municipalities, 80% of the public transport companies, all regional and metropolitan authorities and the national state government, who they provide with decision-making data and consultancy.
Speaker 3:Amazing and Damla, I have to say we need to go Dutch with the pronunciation, so it's goedappel, I think, but Reuven can correct us in a minute. He studied civil engineering at the Arnhem and oh Minijm, again, that's really hard. Reuven, the University of Applied Sciences, looked at road construction, the environment, broad experience across all sorts of traffic-related issues and, basically, is the go-to person for sustainable urban mobility.
Speaker 4:So, erwin, thank you so much for joining us Well thank you for having me and thank you for this introduction. It's really astonishing.
Speaker 2:What astonishing is what you do all around the world, hovind, but we always love to start with the personal touch, so tell us how you come to realize that your heart really belongs to sustainable mobility sustainable mobility.
Speaker 4:Thank you for the introduction. It's true that I've become integrated to my sustainable mobility systems, not so much from an idealistic standpoint, but more because I've learned that this is the only solution for creating livable neighborhoods and cities. First of all, I must say I'm a mobility planner. That's for the first thing. What I enjoy most about my work is to solve the puzzles and designing a mobility system that's for everyone, where everyone can participate and gets around within a responsible travel time. I've done this for large cities, but also for smaller villages, so older concepts Due to limited space, sustainability solutions are often the obvious choice and ultimate contribution to positive results in livable neighborhoods and cities.
Speaker 4:So it's not that it's ideology for me, but it's the logical solution for a good mobility system. I hope you understand this system. I hope you understand this. It's always fascinating to see how people get stuck in their own mobility behavior and how much effort it takes to change their behavior. If they succeed to do that, it's almost. They seem it as a positive and self-evident solution, but they don't seem to be able to take a step for themselves. Well, this is very nice to see and I have to. This is something we give a lot of attention in our work to help people change their behavior and also to accomplish our plans.
Speaker 4:The company Goudappel the company where I work implemented sustainable mobility options in more a matter of common sense than ideologically. Of course, our common sense is scientifically based, while Goudapol is a mobility consultancy with over 60 years of experience, founded on concerns that the rise of cars would dominate public spaces. I just told Steve, a long time ago our founders went to America and they saw the growth of the cars in America and they thought, well, this is what we do not want to happen in the Netherlands. So they made also a software, modeling software where they can combine their studies and well, to let people to show people you can do it on another level. Well, because at this time many people come to the Netherlands to see how the cities develop and how they look like. So I think they did something right. In this period we had a lot of consultancy to all the municipalities in the Netherlands and we get a high grade, I think, from people abroad and they come to see for themselves.
Speaker 3:Kevin, I have to jump in. I love that about the Netherlands. I love the fact that when I know, for decades now, whenever a city or town here in the UK was thinking about a new mobility plan or a new strategy, they would take all the local government officials on a trip to the Netherlands to come and see the magical world of Dutch mobility planning. So you're totally right. Can I follow up, kevin? I've got a question for you.
Speaker 3:By the way, we are a very good balance, you and I, because I am ideological about sustainable mobility. I think it's about fairness, about justice and what's right for our kids. But I love that you've got the whole logic piece locked down. You work with experts all over the world, so you've got a good global view of mobility. I think, from what I've read and we're, this is the century where we reach that tipping point of kind of 70 80 percent of people living in cities in an urban context yes, that big picture thing. What kind of challenge does that raise for sustainable urban planning and mobility? What's your view on that increasing urbanization of the global population?
Speaker 4:Well, in general, it's true, there's an increase of number of people in the world and cities attract many people because of social reasons, but I think this is a positive development for sustainable mobility. So this is good. This is good Because mobility is, of course, it's a consequence of people's desire to move around, so it's a consequence. So it's a consequence when people are together in one city, well, they don't have to move a lot, so there will be less mobility. And when there is mobility in a city, the cities will be more concentrated. So this will mean that there will be a concentration of people and a concentration of transport.
Speaker 4:So public transport, trams, trains, all these kinds of sustainable mobility will provide from that part, and even because there's a lot of, there's work, there's shop, everything is available in the city, like the 15-minute city, everything is nearby. So even when you are not going by train or public transport, you can walk a lot of times or you can cycle, in the Dutch, or this kind of mobility. So, to go, yes, there are more people, so we have more mobility, this is also true. But when they go well, when they come together to combine and we are able to make the cities small and compact Well the mobility, we can reduce the demand for mobility and this is positive for the sustainable mobility, for the way of traveling, for the people.
Speaker 2:But when we are talking about this kind of shift, change in the mobility, it is not only about the mobility but because there are so many interest groups that have a stake in how people move and to where they move. So when you are working on sustainable urban transportation, in your own words, In your own words, space is scarce and interests differ, so how can we just bring together these conflicting interests and bind them together in a mobility plan that is for common good?
Speaker 4:Yes, this is very true. I think, also in the Netherlands, we are really used to this. The Netherlands is a very occupied land and so with every challenge we have, we have to choose what do we do with our space. So we do this kind of thing a lot. Some people say we are over-regulated, regulated, but this is one of the reasons why. But I think we, we need to think about, uh, from a high perspective. So you, you, you may, you need to, we need to make a plan for form, the city, what kind of city do we want to be? And from that concept, you can think which kind of mobility concept fits to that. And and of course, there are different interests. Maybe everyone wants to ride in in a car, but when you have the, the higher vision of your, of your city, when that's okay, then the choices you make later they will be, they will, they will be a lot easier and better to understand.
Speaker 3:Interesting. I mean I love it, the conflicting interests piece. Like I said, I'm a little bit more ideological than you on this, kevin, but I think it's not about cars in cities, I think it's about parking. If you put the parking in, then it's inevitable. So in Manchester we've got like 8% of our surface area in the city centre is parking. It's stupid, it's incredibly expensive and wasteful use of land. So if you get rid of the parking, you can get rid of the cars. Just as a top tip I know you're the planner. Anyway, I want to talk about it's a good suggestion, steve.
Speaker 4:I didn't want to mention it because I must admit it's in the Netherlands. I think it's one of the most important tools for a planner to achieve your goals, but it should be about the goal, and the goal should be we want to have livable neighborhoods and livable cities, and to do this, you need to replace the parking. You can put it underground, you can put it outside of the city or you can have a good public transport system. Everything is possible, but you need to agree on it together. You want livable cities, and I didn't meet anyone who said I don't want livable cities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly steve, do you remember nina paley? Is that piece? This land is mine yeah so I think what we are all trying to say here is this land is ours, not cars.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, exactly. But so I do want to talk about and sorry, I think Damla is a bit scandalized that I tried to teach transport planning to one of the world's best transport planners. But there you go, it's where we are having culture. So you work all over. Kudapel works all over the world. You could be changing your contact to the States Germany, turkey and you know mobility. As you said right at the outset, you were talking about behavior change when we kicked off, and that's an intensely cultural context, isn't it for all of this? So how does sustainable mobility, as an agenda, or as a logical solution as you put it forward, adapt to those quite widely different cultural contexts?
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 4:Well, I think it's true there are a lot of cultural differences there are. Nevertheless there are in every country. Every city has its differences, so you have to cope with that. But on the other side, I think how we behave in mobility, it isn't so different in Turkey as it is in the Netherlands. I mean, why we use, why there is mobility, so not which, if we use the car, we use the bike, but it's why we are going somewhere. It's the same, it's just the kind of well, if you take the car or you're going to cycle. So these kinds of things are different. Some cultures are very car-minded.
Speaker 4:Well, we have done some projects in America where you have six lanes and there's a traffic lane, so there is congestion, so the solution will be the seventh lane. This is American thinking. Well, it's not. The Dutch will think well, maybe you can half on it and then you fit in a bus and it's working perfectly. But these things are different, so they won't work in the same way. There. Also, there are very other things are different. So the Netherlands is very regulated, there's a big government influence, and so I did some projects in Turkey and I understood well, turkey is less regulated and also, the influence of the government is much lower. So these things you have to have to well, you have to cope with.
Speaker 4:But the reason why people move and why they where, why there is mobility, these are well, these are mostly the same, and there's one thing I want to so like. There are also other things, like temperature. So when you're in turkey and it's 35 degrees to 40 degrees, well, you can come with a plan. We need to cycle, we have more active mobility, so more walking and more cycling. But when it's all day 40 degrees or you're in a country with a lot of hills, well then cycling is not the most ideal traveling way. So you better, maybe public transport is much better. It's also sustainable if it's green, of course.
Speaker 4:So in these ways, you have to change your plan. Well, you have to change your plan and well, I think also in Turkey, we can talk about how to cycle or how to walk. But I think there's a bigger problem with road safety especially. There are also countries where not yet on that level that you can talk about behavior or easy cycling. First we need safe cycling and then we can go over to easy cycling. So these things you need to consider in your plan, but it's possible.
Speaker 2:Well, what you said also fits perfectly in the logical solutions. So the reasons are the same everywhere. I want to go to the pharmacy, I want to go to school, so I move. But how I'm going to move and how this will affect my footprint is another issue and it is always contextual is another issue, and it is always contextual. Bringing in mind keeping always in sustainable transportation. You just adjust those different needs when you are working in different cultures and those needs should be really addressed correctly, as you said. But in mobility planning there is another thing, because mobility planning has become a key factor in development of the cities, and HudaPel states that cities will have to make crucial changes in their mobility planning to be able to adapt to the increasingly growing population, as we told, in a sustainable and socially inclusive way. So this is a big, big task.
Speaker 4:What needs to change to make it happen? Well, I think we need to put two things together. So we need to make we have a mobility plan, but there also needs to be a plan for the, for the city. So, first of all, we need to know what I told which kind of city do I want to be? But also, where do we, where do we place the, the, the new livings, where do we? So if? If these will be on a, on a, on a good, in in right area, compact, together, preferred in a combination of a train station or these kind of things, well then, after that, in a compact city, well, the mobility there won't be a lot of. Well, the degrees of mobility it will be less, and what remains, you can hopefully transfer to other active mobility or something like that. Well, parking, as mentioned by Steve, is then a crucial factor, but I didn't want to talk about that.
Speaker 3:Ooh, parking bad. Parking bad, unless it's cycle parking, in which case it's lovely and we like it a lot, or maybe yes. So, kevin, I want to ask about actually, I'm going to change my thought a little bit Integration is integrated, integration is integrated and integrated mobility planning, which is a signature approach of Hudabel, which I think is really good, and I'm a big fan of some of those amazing city plans and master plans, you know, like the finger plan for Copenhagen, and plans where people think about housing and industrial uses and leisure and tourism and they even think about resource flows and nature and wildlife, corridors and all that sort of good stuff. Integrative mobility Tell us a bit more about that. And what I'd love to know is if you had to name maybe one or even two cities where you think the level of joined up, integrated planning is just spectacular, where would they be? What would be your if you had to do your, your your top cities city plan? Which would it be?
Speaker 4:a top city plan. Well, I, I, I want to, I think I need to mention, I think I, I love to be in rotterdam, but just as a visitor, so I can say like this but I think the city of utrecht, in the, in the heart of the netherlands, I, I know this one best and I think the last decade you have seen a great change from a lot of cars in the center of the city to almost no cars in the center and almost problems with too much cyclists. So it's from congestion of cars to congestion of cyclists. So this is something a lot of cities are dreaming about. If you want to see it, go to the city of Utrecht.
Speaker 4:There is a parking for cyclists in the heart of about 6,000 places 6,000 places. I don't think there's another place in the world where it's this large. But also in the center there is a water. It's a canal. It used to be a canal, then it was a motorway and now it's a canal. It used to be a canal, then it was a motorway there and now it's a. It's a canal again. So maybe you know that. You can find it on uh on on the internet. But this is a example of of how a city is changing and and well, and you can, you can yourself find what, what kind of quality there is in the heart of the city now. And it's not only there are less cars, but there's also more space for shopping, to be there to restaurants. So it's not just a bad story about you can't drive there anymore. It's not just a bad story about you can't drive there anymore. It's about development of the city and make good spaces for people.
Speaker 2:I was going to ask about the upcoming projects, but we are kind of running out of time. That was amazing, so I'm parking that one and I'm jumping to our last question. Amazing, so I'm parking that one and I'm jumping to our last question. Ironically, our network is called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world.
Speaker 4:So what object, place or person always makes me smile is when we change someone's behavior, but not by pushing him or her, but the person is changing her behavior, his behavior, and then actually says well, why didn't I do this before? And it's? It's very, it's very often. Almost with every new plan this is the case, so I'm always wondering why, why, why don't we go faster?
Speaker 3:so I love it, the smile on someone's face when they've discovered.
Speaker 4:This is easy.
Speaker 3:I know, I love it too. I absolutely love it. We have in the UK we have kind of classic bicycle training program that's delivered for adults, and there is nothing more wonderful than seeing you know an older adult cycling for the first time, hopefully on segregated, dedicated cycling infrastructure, and the big smile on their face. I love it. Kevin, it's been brilliant talking to you. I'm so glad we ended up, uh, in utrecht. I love it there, damla, you would love if you've not been as well as that crazy bike park outside the tree.
Speaker 3:It's just by the train station, isn't it? Yes, yes, I've never seen anything like it. It's like a, it's like a palace for bicycles. And I also like in the pavement in utrecht. They've got the un sustainable development goals stepped into the pavement, haven't they? Heaven, it's just, yes, an awesome place. See the dutch. So far, the rest of us. I feel like I feel like a previous stem on the arm of human evolution when you're talking to somebody from the netherlands. Anyway, I mean, we're gonna have to wrap it up. It's been brilliant talking to you. Sustainable mobility is an absolutely brilliant subject for us to be talking about.
Speaker 2:Damla, I think it's probably time to wrap us up so thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Herbin Damla, see you soon Bye. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
