The Purpose of Growth, with Öner Günçavdı

Billionaire wealth is hitting historic highs while one in four people face hunger—so what exactly is growth doing for the rest of us? We sit down with Prof. Öner Günçavdı to unpack the mechanics behind inequality and global economics. 

Starting in Turkey and widening to global trends, we trace how housing, education, and healthcare drift out of reach when asset values dominate policy, and why a recent report from Oxfam’s on inequalities reads less like a headline and more like a diagnosis.

The conversation pulls apart two big drivers: the rules we live by and the tech we build. When institutions prioritise asset protection, growth becomes a numbers game detached from human welfare. Add technology concentrated in a few hands—platforms, patents, and data—and you get profits without shared prosperity. We explore what a different path looks like: participatory budgeting that gives communities real control; fair taxation and windfall measures that link extraordinary gains to public good; and housing policies tied to incomes, not speculation. We don’t dodge geopolitics either, asking whether global forums and interventions protect people or just portfolios.

Join us for a clear-eyed, practical journey from problem to possibility, and learn how democratic tools can turn growth into well-being instead of a scoreboard for the few.

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Good guys. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Uzler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

This is Damla from Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicating what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

So in this episode, we're going to talk to Ona Winchalde, a professor of economic development at the Faculty Management Istanbul Technical University. He holds a bachelor's degree from ITU, a master's degree both from ITU and the University of Warwick, and finally, PhD degree from the University of Nottingham.

Why Development Economics

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Lots of fine British universities there, Damler. So Una is the author of two books and various research papers published in both domestic and international academic journals. He writes widely about various aspects of the Turkish economy and development economics. He's also a well-known media personality in Turkey with his comments on economics and development on various media hours. And he's also on the board of the El Ginking Foundation. So, Erna, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Damna and myself. Okay, well, let's first of all, it's a real pleasure to have you here, but first of all, we always like to delve into the background of people before we find out their views. And what we'd love to know is about your journey towards your focus on development economics and sustainable development instead of choosing to focus on international headphones or other areas of economics. What brought you to here?

Turkey’s Inequality And Wealth Gaps

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Well, actually, you see, I did my my my masters in Warwick University, but particularly I'm not I didn't do mainstream economics, I did a quantitative development economics, focusing mainly on the development issues in the Turkey and mainly on African countries. My supervisors and the people that I work in England was also working on the same issues, and uh it was my interest actually. So then in the end, uh you see, I've been, you know, I decided to uh stick with this view and then do research and then make uh difference the life of the people. Well, I must say that you see, I'm also the advising to the uh the political parties in Turkey, all right? The parties in power andor in oppositions. My uh focus also on these issues, all right, distributional and poverty issues. And you probably are aware that you see the the Turkey is the country with the highest poverty rate or income distribution. You see, the worst Turkey has the worst income distributions in Europe and as well as in the world, and therefore it's the main concerns of the political parties in Turkey. While also the wealth distribution, as in the world, all right, wealth distribution is also the very bad in Turkey, and according to the some estimates, all right, the Turkish number of the Turkish millionaire, dollar millionaire is going to increase almost you know 48 percent until 2028. I think the Turkish this number is a very important number because the in the last two years, all right, that figure increased so much and drastically. Well, of course, I mean you can find out the reason in Turkey and find out the roots of this distribution of problems in politics, all right. But the distribution problems in the world is a little bit different from the Turkey, all right. I think, well, if you read the report by Oxam, or Oxfam, all right, uh by the way, it's a very interesting report, but explained uh the all issue that we already know, all right. If you look at this report, I think there are two important, you see, source of inequalities in the world economy, which are very important. The first one, institutions, all right, the roles of institutions, all right. The present, you know, establishment, political establishment, all right, is creating, you know, income, you know, inequalities in the world. The second was I must say technology, all right. The technology is another way of you know source of you know inequalities in the world. Why? Because the the ownerships of the technologies or the copyright of technologies give some people, selected people, privileges to concentrate the wealth in their hands, all right. They the the the that work concentrations created for these people a political power to maintain the already exist existing establishments and the people like us, ordinary people, feel uh helpless and all right to change these establishments. And the already existing you know the structure of our societies, all right, is designed to concentrate that wealth just in the hands of a few people, all right. And uh I don't know, I mean, the how can we you know solve these problems you see in the long future, but these days you've been witnessing the the problem that we have in the United States, absence, you know, files, for example, it involves, I mean, this all people, you know, rich people with the extremely high income level, all right, and the wealth involves in this, you know, unethical, you know, actions. I don't know. I mean, if you have any other questions, we can continue. I have a lot to do.

Institutions And Technology As Drivers

SPEAKER_03 6:59

I do, I do, and I do have a systemic question since you have been working on development issues for so long. For our listeners who hasn't seen the report before, I want to say that we are focusing today on the report of Oxfam, which is newly released, resisting the rule of rich, defending freedom against billionaire power. I want to match this with the previous report of Oxfam. I don't know if you have seen it, but we have covered it, Steve, as you remember in 2025. It was for the 2024 findings, and the previous report's title was Takers, not makers, the unjust poverty and unearthed unearned wealth of colonialism. And that report was focusing on the highly financialized way of development. So my question is we see a pattern here for the last especially 10 years after the pandemic, it has been accelerated and the billionaire wealth is increasing enormously, while the distribution of wealth has really deep gaps in the world, not only in Turkey. So my question is this highly and overfinancialized system of economics, is this sustainable or should we uh choose another path of development for our futures?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Well, of course, I mean it's not sustainable, but it's the reason for the concentration of wealth in the hand of uh just you know few people. Financial uh systems actually create uh extra liquidity in the international system and the technology and the copyright, all right. Copyright of technology all you know become the tools to attract that you know excess supply of liquidity in to uh by this group of people. Of course, the financial system is the number one responsible for this. Another thing is that you see the overfinancialization of the world systems increase the the price of assets in the world as well as the commodity prices and make very difficult for the ordinary people to reach the private as well as the public goods, like educations, all right, health, and so on. It becomes so expensive. We have lots of resources, financial resources, we have the technology, but even so, still talking about the lack of you know adequate you know educations or health systems. I mean, the technology level and financializing the economic system doesn't help anything, all right, doesn't help the ordinary people's life, all right. And every days, you see, with these establishments creates uh difficulties for these people. I think we are heading to oligarchy in the political systems, ruling by a group of people, all right, and uh sticking with the establishments and uh doing policy politics, all right, to hold their interest in the systems. We need to define these establishments, actually, all right. The present neoliberal world, all right, doesn't help us, us meaning the ordinary people, not the wealthy people, all right.

Oxfam Findings And Financialisation

SPEAKER_00 10:47

And I've I've got a question on that very specifically. So if you imagine in the media, as ordinary people, we'll hear this talk of increased billionaires, billionaires increasing their wealth three times faster under Donald Trump. And yet they'll also hear in our countries about economic strategies that are all about growth, growth, growth. And yet they see no wealth coming to them. They see no increase in prosperity. And and obviously we've just had Davos. To what degree do you feel that the international financial institutions now are mainly about protecting that asset value that you talked about of the very wealthy, and and are almost detaching themselves from any sense of growth that might be meaningful for you or eyes? Are we now talking about wealth and asset value rather than any true economic growth?

Growth, Assets, And Davos Critique

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Well, this is also true in Turkey, all right? Also, exactly. We've been having the same situation here in Turkey. So, I mean, the growth, the meaning of the growth or the purpose of the growth, as you said, is to protect the values of the assets of the rich people, not to you know, provide you know extra goods, health services, accommodation, housings, or proper education to make the people ready to face the you know difficulties in the futures. All right, that the purpose of the growth also, you know, holding the assets value fixed or sometimes increasing, but also destroying the uh climate, destroy the environment. Therefore, this type of growthing, all right, growth strategy, all right, doesn't you know generate any benefit for the ordinary people. Everything, I mean, they look at the Daos meetings, for example. The purpose of Daos is to secure the interests of the wealth wealthy people all right in the world. The main purpose is to coordinate their interests, all right, in the different countries and therefore protect the growth rate of the world economy. What is the purpose then? All right, what is the purpose of the Trump policies? I mean, I haven't seen anything so far, you know, distinctive for the ordinary American people. I mean, same true for the Europe, same true for uh Turkey, because the already established existing establishments, all right, runs, operates the in the same way in all over the world. I think if the people, ordinary people, all right, reach the welfare once they reach the proper education and service, the system, the existing establishment has to be changed. Maybe the democracy, all right, the proper democracy, not in words, all right, in practice, the involvement of the people in the economic decisions, where to spend the resources, where to spend the you know, money in the economy, not to, you know, I'm against spending money to hold the rich people's wealth or assets, you know, high. In Turkey, well, probably the same in London, because I was there in London, you see, two weeks ago. So I saw the rents and the the housing prices in London. It's amazing. And I know that you see ordinary people, you know, British people cannot afford that money, that you know, housing. Uh, how can you make the connection between that prices and the income of the ordinary people? I mean, the the country that I you know dream about is the country where the people can you know work and then purchase you know a common house houses with the income. You meet we need to make the connection of the asset prices or commodity prices with the people's you know income level. I think the existence you know system sorry about that is not able to secure the welfare of us or the ordinary people, all right?

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Anyhow, uh sorry no, no, no, I just want to just jump in here because that is a very good topic to talk about, the security of the welfare of us, actually, all of us. So, from the report, let's go back to the report. Another comparison from Oxfam's report is that the number of billionaires has surpassed 3,000 for the first time in our history, and the level of billionaire wealth is now higher than at any time in history. So we broke something, that's for sure. Meanwhile, on one in four people globally face hunger. So, in this today's geopolitical context, also we have to talk about that too. So, in today's geopolitical context, do you see a way out of this wheel? I mean, we broke the system now. How we will break this wheel? That is my question. The wills in the people or the pol establishment, the wheel of the billionaires, breaking that wheel.

Housing, Wages, And Everyday Costs

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Uh huh. Yeah, I I don't think so. I mean, that I can't see any will. I mean, the apart from the uh charity work, all right. But we well, our problems in the world is beyond the reach of you know charities, all right. Look at this, you know, politics in the international scenes, all right. The uh United States is intervening everywhere with military intervention, all right. The purpose of military intervention basically is to maintain the high concentration of wealth in the hand of these people, all right? While you are not able to soften your interests or or whatever you cost in the you know the society, all right, the intervening, military intervening in the region in a Middle East region, for example, is creates the benefit for the people. Well, I'm now asking the question: what is the purpose then? All right, what the ordinary people is going to get uh from that intervention or anywhere, not in the Middle East or or other uh you know regions in the in the world, all right. I think the purpose of this military action or you know is to maintain that uh establishment, the maintain the this unfair distribution of wealth, uh at least to secure their wealth in concentrated in their hands. All right, this is the whole purpose. I can't see any benefit for the people, all right. I don't know the the discourse, political discourse in United States, but I know in Turkey that you see religious and nationalist uh you know discourse, all right. Rising and to uh to secure the interests of a limited amount of people here. Well, the same applies to the states, I guess. I mean, I've never been I I I I haven't seen anything uh so far in the states, you see. I'm not concentrated at the uh United States at the moment. That's why I'm selling. All right, and therefore, I mean, the look at the Bill Gates, for example, spending some charities and doing some, you know, irritation.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

I I'd like to jump in on that, and because I wonder whether I was really struck by what you talked about democracy and earlier and democracy and sure in the UK, we have a small movement amongst our government local governments called participatory budgeting, where the people in that area take part in setting the budget with Chair Things Bang. Now, I wonder whether what we need to be doing, and going from that local level to the international level, Mark Carney's speech at Davos, I think was the first time we saw somebody starting to put forward ideas for an alternative track. And I wonder whether we need to start a new fight for ideas that inspire people, that change this track, so that we can say we can involve people democratically more in setting the budgets for their areas and setting how financial institutions will work. Do you think we need some new ideas to really inspire people?

Geopolitics, Power, And Military Force

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Exactly. I mean, this is what actually wish to say. I mean, the part the ordinary people has to participate in decisions in uh in uh budgets, all right. And uh the the the world economy at the brink of you know transformation. Look at this, you know, artificial intelligence, for example. I mean, it's a real threat for the ordinary people as well. Of course, it's going to increase the profits of the selected people, but what about the others? I mean, the the people has the way of way of you know reaching income, way of reaching welfare. How can we reach our welcome without having a proper job, uh well-paid job? All right, so therefore, I mean, the people, ordinary people has to decide. I mean, this is the main idea, actually, at least the the in the speech of some speaker in Daos. Black Rocks, for example, the CEOs, you know, make this distinctive, you know, talk the first time actually I've seen in a Davos meetings. I mean, this is the real danger. While the the world economies transform uh transforming through technology, but our establishment stays as it is, all right. We have to transform our you know establishment. Political decision mechanism has to be redefined and has to consider more the wills of the ordinary people, not only the you know, couple of a group of people, all right, holding the old political power, all right. I think another important thing, Sative, is the media, all right. Media is a very interesting tool for this group of people because using the media, all right, they influence the ordinary people. You know, they influence the way we think, all right. They define the right and wrong. Therefore, I think the media also the important issue to struggle or to fight, all right, to change the the already existing system. We have to define right and wrong, not the the the number of people only, all right. They define everything according to their you know interests in practice.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Wow, that that's what we need to do, and that was in a nutshell, what shall be done for our future? But I'm sorry, we are out of time, so I want to go to our final question. Our network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world, the British humor, as always. So, what object, place, or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, it is very difficult questions, actually, in a position where I am now in Turkey. So we don't uh also in the world. I mean, there is no, there aren't so many, you know, reason to smile. But there is one important thing for me, all right. The people, all right, idealist people make me to smile and make me to happy, all right. They they changed the world, they changed the world in the beginning of 20 centuries, all right, by suffering a lot. And also, I believe, strongly believe that you see, this period is going to end with the help of these sort of people, idealistic people. Look at you, for example, look at what you are doing, actually, for expecting nothing with the expectation of doing uh creating some benefit to the ordinary people, all right. And uh that makes me more optimistic and makes me uh smile and makes me more confident, all right, for the future.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Amazing. Well, I there couldn't be. I mean, not that basically we make you smile, so that's the that's the perfect answer. No, but I totally agree. It's the change makers, the people who have optimism and a drive to make better things happen. And it's been a wonderful conversation. I'm sorry we didn't get through everything. We we I wanted to get into more about the international rules-based order, but we'll have to have another episode with you so that we can get more into all of that. Damla, that's been a great conversation. Do you want to wrap us up?

SPEAKER_03 24:39

So, thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

And make sure you listen to future episodes. We'll be talking to more amazing people like Gona about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Damler on a season.

Participatory Budgeting And New Ideas

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Bye. Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.