Plastocene Talks, with Sedat Gündogdu

Plastic waste is not just something we step over on the street or on a beach. It is a material that has quietly rewritten ecosystems, economics, and even human biology and once you notice that, it becomes impossible to treat something like “marine litter” as a simple tidy-up job.

We sit down with Sedat Gündogdu, a marine biologist and environmental researcher whose work focuses on plastic and microplastic pollution, plastic waste trade, and the social and political forces that keep plastic production growing. Together we unpack the idea of the Plastocene, a grounded way to understand the Anthropocene through the one material that has become a permanent global signature. We follow the thread back through industrial growth and wartime scale-up, then forward into daily life where plastic shows up in far more than bags and bottles.

We talk about why plastic recycling so often functions as greenwashing, how it shifts responsibility from producers to consumers, and why that comforting story still works. Sedat also breaks down the main routes of exposure to microplastics and chemical additives through food, drinking water, air, and even medical settings and why systemic regulation matters more than perfect personal habits.

Listen in, and share with someone who still trusts the recycling myth.

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome To Good Guys

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Good guys. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Uzler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damlo from Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

So in this episode, we're going to talk to Seddat Gundod, a marine biologist, an environmental researcher, and I believe the go-to persons about plastics. So Sedat's work focuses on plastic and microplastic pollution with a special emphasis on plastic waste trade, its social and political dimensions, and climate implications.

A Scientist Confronts Marine Litter

SPEAKER_02 1:13

So that's interdisciplinary. Always tricky that word, interdisciplinary. So many little bits to trip up over. Approach combines natural sciences, environmental policy, and public engagement. He's also a founding member of the Scientist Coalition for an Effective Plastics Treaty and actively contributes to public discourse through media, scientific publications, and civil society network. So, Sadat, thank you so much for joining Danler and myself. First of all, we'd love to find out about your personal story. So you shifted from your research focus from fish population dynamics and ecological modeling to plastic pollution. How did that shift happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:52

So it was not a sudden decision. It was more like a gradual realization. During my PhD, I was working on fish population and ecosystem to understand how things are changing for them. I was trying to also understand how the system works, but in a theoretical way. So there was mostly garbage. I mean, we call it marine litter. So plastic bags, uh, cans, a piece of other kinds of different kinds of waste, piece of piece of uh plastics, and even some bathroom equipment which this thing should not be there. So that moment stayed with me. I was very clear. I was studying fish, but the system I was trying to understand was already dominated by human impact. So I started to question myself should I continue working on theoretical oceanography or should I focus on what is actually happening in the real world? So combined with my personal background, because I uh uh grew up in in in a you know a time in Istanbul, uh maybe some of our uh listeners away at that time when I was a child, uh, there was a Halich ishi, Golden Hore. Golden Hore was kind of smelled like really bad. I don't want to use that, but yeah. So I combined this, my my personal history and my interest in nature conservation, the answer became clear. So I said, okay, this is what I need to work on. After my PhD, I started to project to make a project on microplastics in the environment and also plastic pollution in the marine environment. And that was the beginning of my journey into plastic pollution research. So, in a way, it was not only a scientific decision, it was also a moment of confrontation with reality.

Making Sense Of The Plastocene

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Well, most of our guests always define a moment like that. It's never about the work, but it's also about how we feel about the world, how we feel about ourselves and our community. So that's a very good story to hear. But let's come to the issue that Steve is waiting very anxiously and begin with the general concept, Plastocene. So we were just adjusting to the Anthropocene, but now there is another narrative around this Plastocene. Can you give us the general frame here?

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Well, Anthropocene is usually defined as a new geological era where human activity has become a dominant force shaping the Earth. Most of the time, the this definition is discussed in terms of geology and stratigraphy, things like sediment layers, carbon signals, or radioactive traces. This is how we define geological errors. But these are important, of course, yeah. But they are also quite abstract for many people. Because just a scene brings the discussion to a more visible and tangible level. Instead of asking only whether humans change the planet, it asks through what material in this change became permanent and global. And one of the clearest answer is plastic, because plastic is not a it's not just a waste. It's a warlike material in a way, because we started to use plastic, of course, the beginning of the 19th century and 20th century, uh the plastic used as a material for some you know luxury luxury uh demand. But the exact and massive usage of plastics comes to during the Second World War. So that's why we call plastics bloody material and warlike material in a way, it produced a massive scale, uh spreading everywhere and leaving long-lasting traces. It has reshaped ecosystems, economies, and even human bodies because we can find plastics, microplastics in in our body parts, even our brain in placenta, unborn children, and every part of our body. So plastoscene is not an alternative to anthropocene, it's more likely a sub-layer of it. A way to understand the Anthropocene through the specific material reality. Because when we look at today's world, we do not only see human impact in jar. So we see plastics in river, in oceans, in soil, in food, in and even our blood, as I mentioned. So we when we when we look at the history of that effect, we say there is an another term, garbology. Garbology is like a history based on what the consumed and what the produced by as as this as refusal. So the the history of refusal actually is the history of plastocene. It it began at the second urban and still go in in that age, and then uh it will continue uh for a long time that we use plastic. So, in that sense, plasticosine makes the Anthropocene more concrete and tell us this is not just a concept, this is something we can touch, breed, and carry inside us.

Plastic Trade And Fossil Fuel Power

SPEAKER_02 8:26

If you want to get your heads around all of that, absolutely amazing. So I've also got the Gorillas album Plastic Beach now playing in my head as well. So, Sedak, you put a special emphasis on the socio-political dimensions of the plastic trade, don't you? And it would be great if you could walk us through a little bit of that as a sort of shaping force behind the plaster scene and it ties with the fossil fuel industry.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Well, the plastic, as you said, is not an only, you know, like uh uh an aesthetic problem in the environment that we see. So it's also socio-political and socioeconomical effect on even gender-related issues has this strong relation with the plastic pollution because more of the most of the transline communities and the the the main member of that those transline communities are children and women. So they are actually mostly affected, even in high high income societies, like in global north uh communities. So most of the human and children are affected because of plastics. But this is daily life exposure of plastics. And the the teeth that you mentioned is also very important. Plastic is basically fossil fuel, but in solid form. Oil and gas are not only burned for energy, they're also, you know, like they are also turned into plastic, which is the high-vit non-burning consumption part of the fossil fuels. So it's like uh now between 11 and 13 percent of total greenhouse gas emissions resulted in plastic consumption and production. So, and also 70% of total uh fossil fuel and greenhouse's gas emission just because of material economies, material production, and plastic is the one of the most persistent material in made of fossil fuel. So the economic model is simple. Plastic is cheap because of subsidies and the governmental support and financial uh support made of uh fossil fuel producers, so it makes plastic cheap and easy to product produce and very flexible, flexible. So this made plastic in our every life, every day and in the daily life product, and so this makes it perfect for mass production and global spray. So but the real problem is this the cost of pollution is not paid by producers, it is it is paid by nature and the people living in you know global solid countries, which so plastic is profitable because it damages, the damage is hidden, and and uh this is why the system continues. We call it not plastic over people, people should be over plastics.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

When we say plastics, I'm just jumping in because I I just realized that when when you say plastic and when we're talking about it, everyone is talking, thinking about the grocery bags or things like that. But even the wet wipes, wet wipes are plastic, plastic is everywhere, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah, not it's not limited with wet pipes and also you know, nappies and also tampons and you know, all kinds of personal chair products as plastics and plastic everywhere, even the chair you sit and the table you used in, and the the the wall that you you colored by dye, all the dyes are plastic, so different forms of plastics that you know surrounded our daily life. So it's not limited bit, plastic bag, as you said.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

It's not surprising that plastic is all over our body, but I'm gonna ask you a different aspect of this. You call the greenwashing in plastics as the tail of recycling. Is this a tale because the legislation and public enforcement is not strong enough? Or is there something that we are all missing about the plastics?

The Recycling Story As Greenwashing

SPEAKER_03 12:48

The recycling actually as a term is not lie, is not tail or is not myth for when we talk about paper, when we talk about metal, when we talk about aluminium. Well, when it comes to plastic, the story around is myth and lie and grid bushing because it generated the the term itself, the recycling of plastics, works, this sentence produced by industry, plastic industry. Because at that time, at the 5060 in the US, you know, there was a big backlash on the environmental pollution caused by plastic. So at that time, the plastic industry started the campaign, Keep America Beat. So if you put if you leave your plastic in the right bin, then they will take care of it. You don't have to, you know, concern about the fate of your waste, because the industry will be will increase the distance between you and your you know your work your property. Because plastic is kind of material that we don't have, the material that doesn't have any uh any owner when it discards. So it becomes public material. So the industry discovered that if they increase the distance between the consumer and the uh waste, then the concern will blow up. I mean, like we will will will go away. So recycling actually to make to increase the the to make plastic visible, invisible, not visible, because plastic is visible material, so making visible invisible is like an illusion, like a delusion. So recycling became a way to shift responsibility from producer to consumer. So it makes people feel that problem is under control while producing production keeps increasing. So yes, weak regulation is part of this issue, but there is also something deeper. You want to believe that we can continue our lifestyle without changing much, recycling support that belief. So that is the why start uh this story still uh works. I mean this delusion, this illusion still works because people want to uh continue alive in in like a comfortable condition. So they want to leave their comfortable zone uh to take responsibility. And also producer wants to want to make us believe that uh there is no responsibility of producer, all the responsibilities just for consumers.

Microplastics And Health Exposure Paths

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Wow. Well, I don't I mean the whole shifting responsibility onto consumers is a huge thing. The distance, achieving distance between you and the ecological damage that you that you're creating is extraordinary. I in fact I'll share it with you said that, but there's a favorite issue of mine of Popular Mechanics from 1950. I don't know whether you ever seen this. It's a it's a this popular mechanics magazine, it's really popular in States. And they had an article on the miracles you will see in the next 50 years. And it was so gendered, right? So it's like all these all the images were of a housewife using it as amazing product of the future. And said, in 50 years' time, there will be no washing up the average housewife. She'll simply wash her plastic dishes down the drain. So incredible. I'll send you a copy of it. Uh the other thing I think is really interesting, because uh you mentioned it earlier, seeing plastic as an aesthetic issue. And I think that's really interesting because phrases like marine litter make you think as if it's this is something that's just uh something a little bit ugly that we need to tidy up and it's not endemic. And I think the besides the sort of environmental pollution, there's also it goes so much deeper into public health, doesn't it? And the health impacts of this. And as you said, even having plastic found in our bodies and in mother's milk. So what do we do about that? How are we getting exposed to so much plastic at that genetic, almost genetic level? And what can what on earth can we do about it?

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Uh well, so so we we we have the BP have pros and cos on this. Something we can do, something we cannot do uh individually. So we have to you know uh classify based on the layer of the you know intervention and litigation. But the the the this is also depends on the exposure way that we are exposed to plastics. Like we exposed in three main ways to plastics. This is the first one is what we eat, because all the you know, food covered the plastics. This is a big issue. You know, we have to focus on that. Second, uh what we drink, and the third one is what we breathe, because plastics also appear you know like very you know like common in the uh the ambient air. So, but there is also other way that we expose plastics, like uh medical treatments. When you go to hospital, you know, to to treat yourself because of some plastic or illness, so they are putting in your blood, in your vein, by some you know, intravenous administration, like we call it IV solutions. All those IV solutions stored inside the plastic bag. So just think about that. You haven't eaten, you haven't drink, you haven't breathed, you expose that plastics in very direct ways. So all those particles, you know, passed, I mean like uh turned around of all your body barriers. Because one once you eat something, so there is an intestinal blood barrier, you know, they can you know like block some particles, but when you expose plastics with your blood directly intravenous way, so all this barrier normal valve. So it can reach even in your brain. That's why there's some studies uh found plastics inside the brain. So plastic particles in food, in voto and in air, so these are the main exposure way and also in medical equipment. So plastics not just like a just the you know like physical particles. There are sixteen thousand, more than sixteen thousand chemicals inside plastic that make plastic actually hazardous and toxic because all those chemicals are carcinogenic, endocrine disrupting, and also making some uh you know novel uh emerging novel uh illness, which call we call it Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, even prenatal birth, and we call it prenatal birth birth is very common in this year just because of those chemicals. One of the latest studies, I guess, that the chemicals we expose just because of plastics are strong correlation with the prenatal birth and the health of the infants and also newborn babies. So even in the low level of exposure, even you expose one single plastic particles that can make change in your body because most of the chemicals inside plastics are acrylic, I mean bioacrulative, and also persistent. We call some of them forever chemical. It means there is no force to break down that can can break down that part chemicals into their monomers or their uh like components. So we need systemic uh change rather than personal uh behavior change because personal behavior behavioral change is not the solution. So less production, safe materials, and stronger regulation. So at the same time, indivisions can of course reduce their exposure by changing their lifestyle because we don't get plastics.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Now, just to push back to that, just to because I've um we introduced in my home city of Greater Manchester, there was uh a plastics ban announced by the mayor. And then we had a bit of a debate with a plastics professor who he was really interesting. He had a very wide range of reasons why plastic, he believed plastic was beneficial. So it he'd say on sustainability angle, that plastic wrapping of food made it last longer. And so therefore reduced food waste and balance, balance, balance. And then he went deep into how in a medical environment in particular, a lot of those plastics, which might be leaking through into our bodies from what you're talking about, are absolutely key to infection control, safer surgical procedures. What do you and I I think the plastics industry itself is very good at dancing around and making some quite compelling arguments. So do you find yourself having to confront some of those pushback arguments on why plastic either for health or ecological reasons actually is not as bad as we think. Do you get that quite a bit?

What A Strong Plastics Treaty Requires

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Uh yeah most of that those arguments are actually not real because you know like most of the plastic that we are talking about are unnecessary plastics. So you know we had non-plastic version of all of this consumption pattern that you define so all this plastics and the all this plastics replace replaced with that you know more sustained you know like you know I I don't want to use that uh term sustainability circularity so all this uh terms and all this area of uh words and wordings is kind of playground of industries so when you say sustainable in in in and in terms of plastic more positive than other material so it's it's in the scenario that we are transferring food from like uh from the UK to Turkey. So if you transfer food from UK to Turkey of course you need uh some you know like variable materials but why we are sending cheese from UK to Turkey so that food system itself is the main problem. So if you if we if we increase the the the level and the resiliency of the local food system so we will we will automatically remove plastics into the food supply chain. So plastic will never be will no longer be a I mean an advantage material when we compare with others. So that professor or that kind of industry representative they use that argument because they want to continue business as usual scenario. So they don't want to reduce their production so the material itself the problem so and also the industry is not transparent. So all the material that they used in for for for different sectors like in medical sector and food sector has problem with their transparency. We don't know what's the component of those plastics have you have you read any labels describes what's inside the plastic used in this medical or food sector no you cannot do this because there is no way to do this because there is no labeling or transparency on that. So just just think about it there is a monster one someone proposing you have to live with that monster there is no other way because the monster is the reality that's that's not true no it cannot be reality it's a scenario scenario proposed by industry. He just went for the juggler Steve he hated it and we know we know what we need to say at that point we need to channel our Derrida Damler in naming our monsters we can defeat them yes that's it naming and taming the monsters we have so little time left we're almost over but I have to ask sedat in a nutshell I know that you are also one of the founders of the coalition for an effective plastics treaty what does this effective plastic treaty look like so an effective treaty it must focus on production reduction not only waste which the like minded countries classify it as they they classify themselves as like minded countries which is mainly fossil fuel producer they want to make plastic treaty negotiation on plastic waste negotiation but the effective if you if you want an effective treaty we must focus on production reduction. If we only manage waste we will always be too late because you know waste is a result not the reason. So the reason is plastic production so treaty should limit plastic production especially unnecessary and single use plastics it should also control harmful chemical use in plastics like intentionally or unintentionally useful plastics. Another key point is fairness you know some countries produce more and some suffer more. So the treaty must recognize this imbalance you know some of the island states they even don't use plastics but they suffer under plastic pollution because of the other countries consume and produce more plastics. And finally it must be the binding and in the legally binding instrument so without that it becomes just a statement not a solution just a you know like voluntary statements.

Water As Hope And Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Amazing so we are going to have to I hate to do this because I want to go deep into greenwashing in particular we could just go deep and deep deeper and deeper but we won't set out we'll have to do some more talking about this at some point. So we're going to go to a final final question which is our network is ironically called do not smile because we need to make sustainability a word increasingly Damler on this podcast we're struggling with we have to make a more ecological future a subject that brings happiness into the world so our question is what object place or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_03 27:59

For me yeah it's water it's water especially clean and clothing water so a river the sea even a small stream or creek because water shows us what a healthy system looks like and movement balanced life you know and also oh because you know it goes never ends of course you know luck of I love that water so water as hope yeah yeah water as hope because I have seen polluted waters in in my childhood period so I I also see our recovered polluted regions are reshaped reshaped out environment.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

You need to come out and hang out in the UK our rivers polluted polluted that's a whole other topic for another deck we're gonna have to have to wrap it up Danla I'm about to go now to announce to the to the cheese producers of Britain that they may no longer wrap their cheese in plastic and send it to Turkey. So if anybody in Turkey enjoying a uh cheeky British cheese at the moment make the most of it is on its way out. So that it's been absolutely amazing talking to you. Thank you so much for introducing us to the Plastic scene.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Damler do you want to wrap us up so thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast brought to you by the Do not smile network of agencies.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable future so Damler said that see you soon.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Bye soon bye Goodgeist a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damler Ozler and Steve Connor brought to you by the DNS network