Telling the Transition Story, with Gamze Çelikyılmaz

In this episode we're chatting to Gamze Çelikyılmaz, Vice Chair of Climate Academy Global and a long-time climate change policy specialist, to make sense of where the global energy transition actually stands and why the picture is so uneven across regions. 

With Gamze we go from the big global picture to the local human reality of a just transition. For communities built around coal mines, power plants, oil and gas, the challenge is not only replacing jobs but also protecting health, preserving dignity, and rebuilding tax bases, institutions and social networks. Gamze explains why there is no such thing as a 100% just transition, yet also why delaying change is not fair either, and how practical measures like reskilling, upskilling, worker protections and long-term governance can keep the process as just as possible. 

Along the way we dig into examples that show what works in practice: Germany’s Ruhr region and Spain’s Bilbao, plus reflections on the UK’s own history and the emerging energy transition zone in Aberdeen. A recurring theme is storytelling, because successful transitions create a new identity that people can own, not just a list of projects on a spreadsheet. 

So if you care about climate action, climate policy, fossil fuel phase-out, clean energy jobs and what a fair transition really means for real places, listen in!

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome To Goodgeist

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicating what

Introducing Gamze’s Climate Policy Work

SPEAKER_01 0:45

creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

So in this episode, we're going to talk to a dear friend of mine, Gamze Chelik Yulmaz, the vice chair of the Climate Academy Global, with a BSC degree of chemical engineering. She received her first MSC degree with her studies on biotechnology from ITU. And then she received a second one on environmental sciences and policy from the University of Manchester, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

That's amazing. What a fine university. And I may have gone there myself once upon a climb. I only got one degree, though. I didn't get several. Gamza has worked in intergovernmental organizations for many years on climate change policy. She's been the lead author of many national publications on climate change, such as Turkey's seventh national communication submitted to the UNFCCC. And currently, besides working as a vice chair of the Climate Academy Global, she provides consultancy to UNFCCCC and FAO. And she works, God, I'm exhausted. How did she find the time? As a climate change expert in the European Commission's projects in developing countries. So, Gamsa, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Dana and myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

So, well, I mean, that's quite the resume there. So tell us, we because we love to find out a bit of a backstory. Tell us about how you got to where you are. What should your journey been from chemical engineering to climate

From Ozone Worries To Climate Action

SPEAKER_01 2:10

sciences and policy?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, actually, this came in a funny story. I was in primary school, and imagine I'm like nine or ten years old, and our teacher was talking about the ozone layer depletion. And I don't know why. I was so concerned. I mean, come on, nine-year-old, 10-year-old kid wouldn't really mind that. But I somehow I was like, oh my god, we should do something about it. And then since I mean, since primary school, I always wanted to work on environmental issues, not on climate change, because in in those years, which are 1980s, this was not okay. I mean, climate change was not really a topic. Then a bit later, when I are in turn early teenage years, I was involved in uh Greenpeace as an I was not an activist, but I was supporting them with you know painting posters and so on and so forth. And then I said, okay, all right, probably this is not how it works. I should be somewhere else. I mean, you know, there are different layers that you can do something about the environment. I said, no, no, no, this is not one. So I decided to study something about environment. Okay, I studied, I ended up with chemical engineering, but I did my thesis on environment. Uh, I'll fast forward, then I studied environmental biotechnology. I was working in the lab, and like 3 a.m. in the morning, I was in the lab, and I said, This is not how I can save the environment. I mean, I should do something on policy, and then I finished that and I and I still did environmental sciences on policy. I said, Yes, this is this is it, this is where I should be. And I love this. This this is my story, and actually, since 20 20 years already, I'm professionally working on uh environment, particularly on climate change. Yeah, I mean, some people might consider maybe to go to other topics, but I uh somehow I was obsessed on this on this topic, yeah. So this is my story.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

Steve, this is how she finds time, you know, in the which is 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, did everybody I hope everybody caught that. It was 3 a.m. in the lab. It's like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

This is how it happened.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

So, Gamze, you have been working on just

The Truth About Fossil Fuel Decline

SPEAKER_03 4:20

transition and exit from fossil fuels for years now. Can you give us a general frame on where we stand in the exit from fossil fuels globally? Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Well, it's it's clear that we are in uh in an energy transition, but it's difficult to say that we are inside a full fossil fuel decline globally. There are a lot of things that happening, and it's not homogeneous, it's very heterogeneous. To frame it, we can say clean energy renewables are growing, growing extremely fast, and actually faster than we expected earlier. Electrification is accelerating, but at the same time, total world energy demand is still rising, and this is especially in Asia and global south. Maybe it's not the same in a more developed world, that's because of energy efficiency and uh the progress in renewable energy. But in Asia and global south, it's very clear that due to industrialization, increased development, uh, the demand is also high. And the renewables are partly replacing fossil fuels and partly just adding new supply on top of them. So, you know, it's uh it has a lot of parameters. Also, now new countries are like Turkey is installing nuclear energy, which is also a debatable thing when it comes to climate change. And also the climate change experts are also divided in that. I mean, one side says, Oh, yeah, it's good that there will be no CO2 emissions anymore, but the other one will say, Yeah, but we'll have another kind of waste. So it's also uh under discussion. It's it's easy to say to sum up. The transition is real, especially in electricity. In um, but fossil fuels still dominate the total system, unfortunately. And it's not only I'm not only talking about power generation, there's also industry, shipping, aviation, chemicals, heating. And it's not really easy to take the uh fossil fuels out of the equation. Actually, the energy industry, in the energy industry, it's much easier to take the fossil fuels out of the equation, but in these like heavy industries, like still, in the the technology of steel production, it's still the same since decades. Uh, and we are still using so much fossil fuel for you know producing steel, unfortunately, and we don't have a new technology for that. Same with shipping, same with aviation. Yes, technology is, I mean, hopefully underway, but we don't know that the current developments are promising, but we need urgent solutions. So it's difficult to say that we are on the right side yet. And yeah, as I mentioned, the transition is uneven geographically, and China is the world's largest fossil fuel consumer, but at the same time, they're growing very fast in renewables and let's say electricity, electrical cars, and they are making them very affordable, which is changing the whole global trade dynamics right now. They are the largest clean energy builder at the same time. So we are probably near the peak growth era for fossil fuels, I can say. Coal demand is almost near the plateau, and oil demand may peak within the decades. Well, these are not my words only. I'm this is a combination of a lot of articles and research being done, and EIA reports as well. EIA, according to AA reports, under current policies, demand for all three fossil fuels could peak before 2030. Yeah, that's good news, but on the other hand, we don't have even that much time. So we don't need a peak at 2030. We need already starting a decline. So I'm talking about if we want to comply with Paris Agreement and 1.5 goal. So this is where we are. Electricity is leading the transition right now, but everything else is harder. So this is right now where we are.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Well, that's a really good summary, Gams. I mean, I I do remember when we were supposed to have peaked several years ago, weren't we? And so we are, if you like, trying to play catch-up. And I think for another episode, Dumler, we could do the nuclear debate properly. I feel like we skirted around it on this podcast and talked about nuclear generation. And I know I've come off the fence quite clearly about where I feel nuclear power generation stands in the scheme things, but that's not what we want to get into next, Gamsett. So um on that transition, and you mentioned that it

What Just Transition Actually Requires

SPEAKER_01 9:05

is a mixed picture geographically, which I think is really interesting. And we've got the whole situation in the US where the, you know, we're we're seeing sort of Trump roll things back. But there is also the really fascinating narrative out there and debate around what people call a just transition and not leaving communities behind, making sure that the poorest in society and globally don't pay more to transition away from fossil fuels and that economies that depend heavily on fossil fuels aren't disadvantaged so that people lose their jobs. So it's a really fascinating piece of discussion around what does the transition look like. So paint us a bit of a picture. What does a, from your perspective, what does a just transition look like for a local and small communities, especially if their economy is so hinged around fossil fuel?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Well, that depends on what do we mean with just transition, actually. Because any kind of transition is a has to be just. And nobody talks about it. Of course, I mean the only partner party that is impacted from that is mostly either the governments or the producers, the car producers, mostly we're talking about, but also the the public is a is a partner in this, but nobody talks about it. Well, coming back to our question, uh again, I need to take it as in the narrow sense because this is mostly the the the one that is being talked about. There is no 100% just transition, that's really almost impossible. Because we are talking about a very grift uh process that needs to be done. It's not not nothing is homogeneous because uh when we talk about the employee employees of power plant or I mean coal power plant or the employees of coal mine, coal mine, they all have different backgrounds, different ages, different uh social backgrounds, maybe not necessarily socioeconomic when it comes to uh the incomes, but it's it's very almost impossible to have it 100 100% just. But what we can do is actually to keep it as just as possible. Because uh when you say, okay, then let's keep it just and then let's not change anything and let's keep let's keep it the way it is so that these people are not impacted, but then this is not just for us who are being impacted for from the coal power plants. So there must be something in the middle, and there must be some compromise from each party. Of course, the these people are going to lose their jobs, and most very often these are very good paid jobs because the it's a difficult job, and of course, nobody will, it's a dirty job basically, and they're in the employees' health are impacted so much as well. But on the other hand, some of these people will have more opportunities and access to new employment opportunities. For example, when there's a transition in let's say coal coal area. Let's take the the example of Mula in Turkey. Uh, maybe you know about it already, I Steve. I don't know. It's the southwest city of Turkey, and uh it's very rich in history, agriculture, uh, nature, the forests, blue economy, it's a peninsula, and the city is fantastic. So you are actually if and it's there are three big coal power plants in uh in Mugla. So there's there are big opportunities even for the employees of the coal mines and coal power plants. If there's some kind of just transitioning those areas, then those people have options. So this is about having options or not having options in in those places. For other coal regions in Turkey, that may not be the case because there are some cities where there's really the only economy is the coal economy. So it's really difficult to, or almost maybe impossible, and even people are are against it not because of socioeconomic things, but also their life will change totally. But it's not the case in Mula. So it's we have to take every whole area or region case by case. There's no one solution for all. So that that means that brings us to the reality that there's no hundred percent justice in any kind of transition. Oh, I hope I could be able to answer your question.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Well, when you put it like that, we also see that there are a lot of things to be done, like reskilling and upskilling the existing labor, but also planning the economy according to the new realities of the transition. And that also needs a lot of governance, a lot of future casting, and so on. So, are there any good examples where this could be done, even in the smallest

What Works In Real Places

SPEAKER_03 14:25

scale and around the world? Do you remember any good examples on this?

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yes, there are. There are, but even the best examples are usually partial success, they're not perfect transformations. So, as I mentioned, just transition is hard because it's not only about replacing jobs, it's also about replacing identities, tax bases, you know, institutions and social networks. So some people will need to leave the town, and new people may need to come, maybe. As you said, the key is well planning in advance. And when we look at the successful example examples, we always give the rural region in Germany. There's this probably the closest thing to the classic successful just transition case. It spent more than a century centered on coal and steel and employing hundreds of thousands of workers in the beginning in the 1960s. But uh mine closure were spread over decades rather than sudden shock. So things take time, but the slower and uh gradual you make it, the higher possibility to have success. And that rule can manage that, have managed that. And governments there invested heavily in universities and research institutes and cultural redevelopment and restructuring. So, and strong unions and social uh partnerships, pensions have been negotiated, and worker protection rights have been on the focus all the time. So there was really good planning and good implementation. It's not easy, definitely it's not easy, and that's just you imagine this is one town, and this is it's difficult to scale scale this up to many other places because every place has their own socio-economic uh or social or cultural natures. So there's no one solution for for another. One solution cannot be applied in in several places. And another example is Spain, for instance. In Bilbao's shipbuilding and steel industries collapsed in the late 20th century, and city had pollution, unemployment, and urban decline. So there was also a kind of transition there from heavy industry to services, culture, and technology areas. And also there, there was public investment and modernized infrastructure and economic diversification, focusing on education, services, tourism, design, and just like what I suggest from for Moolah. So it's possible. There are examples, of course. So here the common there are common patterns in the success stories. I think we should chase these. One is there we see that there's long time now timelines. So these transitions took decades, maybe not one or two. Well, that depends on the place. And it has to be decoupled from election cycles. And unfortunately, that's a that's a reality, sad, sad truth. And there another pattern is that there have been massive public investment. Yeah, universities, infrastructure, transit, cultural institutions, RD, etc. And also another pattern is there were strong unions, or the projections, the protections, the worker rights protections have been negotiated heavily. And and I find another one very very good is that another pattern is every uh coal region or transition region created a new story for themselves. It's not only something top to bottom, but also successful cases created a new story about the region. That's why I say moolai's a very low-hanging fruit, because it has a lot of stories that can that can come back. But yeah, these are good examples and they can be increased, but it's not easy, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

I love it. Um Damla, I'm quite excited about the storytelling element of the transition. It's so fast, it's so fascinating, Xander, is it Gamda, isn't it? Because uh the raw region, uh, for example, has a whole cultural layer to the industrial archaeology of that, the industrial infrastructure, the industrial architecture, sorry, of that region, where if you go to the landscape park in Duisburg North, they've trunced they've tried turned sort of blast furnaces that were fed by coal into performance spaces for opera and things like that. And I think that their theirs is a really rich story. Whereas if you if you actually come over to the UK and think about our coal mining regions and what happened under Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, where communities were completely left behind and destroyed. There was no transition, no plan, nothing, just completely left behind.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

And and I think just execution.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yeah, it was just I mean, I mean, and that was partly politically motivated. But right now in the UK, if I had an example to share with you, I think Aberdeen in the Northeast in Scotland is really interesting as you know, a real oil and gas capital, a global oil and gas capital. And there they have this thing called an energy transition zone where they are investing in companies and also in educational facilities to see a skills transfer across from oil and gas over to renewables and and in many cases the supply chains for the two types of energy can be very similar. And so there's an opportunity there to do a straight switch. And so I wonder, I think, from from this part of our discussion, Gamzi, what do you think about the the

The Opportunity Story We Must Tell

SPEAKER_01 20:15

opportunities in the transition? Are we selling them strongly enough? And can we return to that storytelling thing that you just flagged up there? Do we need a to find a new way to pitch the kind of socio-political as well as the environmental opportunities of this transition?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Mm-hmm. All right, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, first of all, it depends on where we are transitioning from. Are we transitioning from coal regions, oil and gas regions, or industrial cities? Depends on what we're talking about. But I can say in general that the opportunities are usually not only green jobs. So we are not only saying that okay, now you're diverting from dirty coal plant and you'll work you'll start working in a solar panel production. It's not that easy, it's not that same. So, first of all, definitely there will be health improvements, whatever you're transitioning from, because we're talking about that. Exactly. Mostly most people talk about diverting from transitioning from fossil fuels. So there will be health improvements not only for the workers, but also for the local locals, I mean in general, the workers' families, and whoever is living around. So this is this is a lot of uh socioeconomic saving, actually. It's not it's not small. And there will be economic diversification, which is also very good because not everyone wants to talk about and uh sorry, work in uh in c in coal mines or coal power plants for sure. Some and and if there is the that is the only economic livelihood opportunity in one town, then people's especially y youth. Will have to migrate to another place, and that's also an issue. So there will be definitely an economic diversification. And bringing the mu story, like any kind of other sectoral income opportunities, will bring actually the youth back to the town and maybe other places to the town. So that's also a very good opportunity for that. And yeah, and also, of course, reindustrialization through clean energy manufacturing, which is, I mean, undupted leads in targeting the climate change and also in sustainable clean environment, basically, environmental sustainability we're talking about. And another good thing is, of course, energy independence and local ownership. If the story, if the locals own the story, the new story, then people will put more energy into it and more people will be engaged. Like let's say in coal mines, I don't expect there are women working, but in a new new economic uh opportunities, new employment opportunities can bring the women into the picture. So that will be a great ownership. That will cause a lot great local ownership and energy dependence as well, depending on what exactly we're talking about. And of course, land and environmental restoration. I would like to say this as last, but people are more interested in social economic things, of course. Yeah. So that's all what I can say.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Oh, Gamze, we had so many more questions, but the time is up. I hate when this happens, Steve. Something is very interesting and we want to go dive deep,

Clean Oceans, Aberdeen And Closing

SPEAKER_03 23:35

but the time is up, so I have to jump to our final question. Our network is ironically called do not smile because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place, or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

I would say standing on the seaside and seeing a clean ocean makes me smile.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

I love that. We're all standing there with you, we can see it. Oh, thank you. Do you know what? Talking about the transition, if you stand so Aberdeen, have either of you been to Aberdeen.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Very interesting city. Um I like it very much. And it's all made out of a grey granite stone that has little sparkles in it. So it's a grey city, but it's got sparkles. And if you it has this four-mile, so that's what's that about six-kilometer long beach, and you stand looking out at the ocean, and you can see oil platforms, but you can also see huge wind farms, and you can almost across the seascape, you can see the energy energy transition happening. It's really dramatic. Probably not the ocean that you had in mind there. With all these structures sat in it, but that should be fascinating. I we could talk for more. You're absolutely right, Dan. We've really gone over badly, haven't we? Yes, exactly. Dam is telling, telling me, come on, wind up. I want to carry on. I want to talk about coal mines, they're really interesting. You can do a lot, you can do a lot with them. So uh in the UK, I'm really interested because they've got the coal mine authority here, they've got these programs, Gamsate, where they're looking at extracting heat from them for district heat systems. So, can you use those old coal mines? It's fascinating. But we've got to stop. I'm really sorry, Dan, you better wind us up. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

So, thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And make sure you listen to future episodes while uh where I'll run over terribly and miss our downline. But we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Gamze, Damla, see you very soon.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Bye. Bye-bye. Goodgeist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.