The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Gratitude in the Workplace: All Fur Coat and No Knickers? - The Thanksgiving Special!
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Happy Thanksgiving! This week, we’re serving up a hearty helping of gratitude—but is it heartfelt or just for show?
In this special Thanksgiving episode of The Elephant in the Org, Danny, Marion, and Cacha carve into the complex world of workplace thankfulness.
Are annual "thank-you" emails and pizza parties really enough? Or are they just, as Marion says, "all fur coat and no knickers?"
We discuss why performative gratitude often misses the mark and explore what it takes to make appreciation feel authentic and meaningful.
In this episode, we explore:
✅ The difference between performative and authentic gratitude (and why it matters).
✅ Why recognition programs and ritualized thank-yous can sometimes tick the wrong boxes.
✅ How managers can build authentic connections with their teams (spoiler: no pizza parties!).
✅ The gratitude gap: Why middle managers need more support to foster appreciation.
Plus, we share our personal reflections on gratitude this year and invite you to join the conversation about what true appreciation looks like in the workplace.
Whether you’re reflecting on how you recognize your team or rolling your eyes at yet another empty corporate "thank you" email, this special Thanksgiving episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the real impact of gratitude at work.
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🚀 Your Hosts on LinkedIn
- 🐘 Marion Anderson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/marionandersonpx
- 🐘 Danny Gluch — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgluch
- 🐘 Cacha Dora — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cachadora
💬 Like what you hear?
Follow/subscribe so you don’t miss an episode — and if this one hit home, leave a ★★★★★ review to help more people find the show.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024 — fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
Topics: employee surveys, listening culture, trust, people analytics, psychological safety, employee voice, ...
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined by my co-host Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And this week's elephant in the org is
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Danny Gluch: thankfulness in the workplace. Is it real?
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Danny Gluch: Question? Mark.
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Cacha Dora: Can it happen? Does it exist? Let's talk about it. Is it just for.
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Marion: Show? Is it performative, like so many other things that we do.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, yeah.
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Marion: Well.
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Danny Gluch: 1st off I let's talk about what performative is. It's a very like
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Danny Gluch: philosophical academic word. What does it mean when when you ladies think of performative right? This isn't just a
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Danny Gluch: a word we throw around loosely here. What does it mean for something to be performative versus authentic.
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Marion: We have a great saying in Glasgow.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, lay it on us.
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Marion: Yeah, it's all fur coat and no knickers.
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Cacha Dora: It's all for. Oh, yeah, there you go.
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Cacha Dora: shared this before I remember that one. I mean, I didn't remember until you said it again, but I remember.
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Marion: Yeah, it's all it's all for show. But there's not a lot of substance underneath.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I I think, like performative to me, like
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Cacha Dora: in an organization. It gives me the ick every time.
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Cacha Dora: because you can see the lack of genuine.
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Danny Gluch: Backing behind it right like you're talking about that sustenance. Right? You can see that it's lacking that. It's where it's just.
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Cacha Dora: Word vomit wordsmithing to make it look good. But there's nothing structurally that actually supports it.
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Cacha Dora: And I think that
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Cacha Dora: I think societally, we've actually seen a huge uptick in people becoming aware of it. Post Covid, because we saw such a huge collective start to explore things through the blm movement and everything else that's transpired past that point where people are starting to actually see and understand.
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Cacha Dora: even if they're coming from a privileged place, what performative actions can look like.
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Cacha Dora: And so I think that it's 1 of those things that when people are doing things that are performative where they don't actually see it backed by the culture
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Cacha Dora: that they call it out a little bit more. They'll definitely talk about it amongst themselves.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: When they do see it. But I truly think that performative is is a is a checkbox for
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Cacha Dora: anyone, and I mean organizationally, or just in people's professional lives when they're saying things because they feel they have to.
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Cacha Dora: But anyone can say something because they have to.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, and I think that's a really good distinction. So my my introduction to performativity was through like
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Danny Gluch: like actual, like academic work. And one of the the things that they always talked about was.
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Danny Gluch: if you didn't do it, there were consequences.
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Danny Gluch: So you end up just doing it to avoid the sort of pushback backlash of consequences. So like Judith Butler talks about gender performativity where we wear certain things, speak certain ways, act certain ways, because if we don't do that, that aligns with our presenting gender, there's backlash. So we end up performing it, whether it's authentic or not, just to avoid the backlash. So we.
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Danny Gluch: you know, we put up our little pride flags, for you know, corporate pride flags, and we we have corporate Thanksgiving, because if we didn't do those things, could you imagine
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Danny Gluch: how upset people would be? They're like, Oh, my goodness, they don't care.
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Danny Gluch: But it's literally just so like they don't get backlash.
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Danny Gluch: And it's it's it's that performance of like, Hey, we need to do this. We're checking the box. Because if we don't check the box, someone's going to send us an angry email, and that's different than like actually being grateful or actually supporting the Blm movement or actually supporting, you know the LGBT community that's at your workplace.
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Marion: You think I don't think it's as
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Marion: black and white for sorry, for want of a better phrase, but like I don't think it's it is is.
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Marion: you know, linear is that I think it's a lot more like
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Marion: like if I think about organizations right now, right? And you'll see it on Linkedin. And they're like posting external sort of gratitude.
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Marion: you know, maybe branded, or whatever. But you know, it's something that they're doing in the organization.
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Marion: Lots of people get behind those things.
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Marion: Some people will have genuine love and intent and real gratitude that they want to express. Other people will be a tick box performative, or
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Marion: Mary did it. So I should do it. Type thing right? Like it's it. It's never clear cut. And it's not the same for everyone.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And I mean, that's why I brought up the gender part. Because, like, yeah, if I were to go outside and wear a dress like I would encounter certain consequences for not doing my male, you know, gender performance.
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Danny Gluch: but also like I don't. That's not how I like to dress right it. It is like authentically me, wearing a shirt and tie to work
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Danny Gluch: right? So like there, there is often authenticity that can be aligned with that, and I think we see that a lot
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Danny Gluch: and and I think it's it's actually
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Danny Gluch: a disservice to a lot of these organizations that do care to be like. Oh, well, this is just performative, but I think what we want to talk about is, how do we tell the difference? And when? What is that experience for the employees when one is performative and one is actually authentic.
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Marion: Well, I also think gratitude is a close cousin of recognition, right and.
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Cacha Dora: I was about to make a comment about that on how it ties into culture. Exactly. Yeah.
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Marion: And and I think that something that we see a lot of in industry is
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Marion: and I think this is generational, really. But there's
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Marion: a challenge with the perception of recognition.
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Marion: Because recognition is fairly unique to everyone. You know what people, how people want to be recognized.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Marion: Is very much specific to the individual. Some people like.
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Cacha Dora: And it is.
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Marion: Like through words. Some people like through action, whatever it might be, right, like.
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Cacha Dora: Some people don't like it at all. They like it. A simple, a simple pass by. Yeah, they want to pass by comment, and they don't want to have the spotlight on them.
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Marion: And so, you know again, being that close cousin of gratitude is similar thing right, like.
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Danny Gluch: Kind of.
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Marion: In know? Like again, as a as a brit. You know, the the notion of thanksgiving to me
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Marion: only really made sense. When I became very you know.
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Marion: close to the American culture, like, I had a lot of American friends. It's before I even moved here. But I'd spent a lot of time in La, and you know I really embraced the notion of it in terms of like the idea of having this time to kind of like show gratitude, and express that gratitude. And then, actually, when I really understood what the origins of the holiday, I then.
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Cacha Dora: A lot less, a lot less gratitude. Yeah.
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Marion: Maybe not quite, but.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: It's such a I don't know. It's just
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Marion: I don't. I don't think it's again. It's not clear. It's not clear cut
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Marion: at all about the sliding scale of
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Marion: performative to authentic. I think it's it moves and it's different. What what is wrong
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Marion: is when it's purely like a tick box thing, and the organization does not convey gratitude to the its workforce any other time of the year, apart from when you know Thanksgiving rolls around. And you know then it really is performative, but
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Marion: I don't know. I think people like attitude to be expressed in different ways, like they do recognition whether it be again. You're grateful for the work that I've done this year. So you're going to give me a bonus, or you're going to give me a promotion, or you're going to same thing right?
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Cacha Dora: Right. I think also to like, think there's a way to be able to see going back to Danny. Your question around like, how do we know? And how do we view if it's authentic?
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Cacha Dora: you know it's the and I. We saw a huge, a huge bout of this right out of Covid when all the physical businesses started opening up. And it's like, Okay, all of our workers. We'd like you to come in on Thanksgiving evening.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: But we're grateful for you.
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Cacha Dora: are you? If you're telling people that you don't want them to spend the time with their families. That is like that social contract where your business never did it before.
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Cacha Dora: right like, if it was something that they signed up for, and they knew that in their employment. That's 1 thing, but just suddenly kind of drop that on someone while giving this gratitude message, then that inauthenticity is kind of
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Cacha Dora: visualized.
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Cacha Dora: and that doesn't happen to all businesses right? Like, it's probably things that are gonna happen within, like the service industry within retail, within certain segments where they're going to have a level of customer facing interaction. But I remember. And I I mean, like this was years ago. But just your question made me think of it on that, like the disconnect between the message and the action. And I think that's how you find with the authenticity. Is there a connection between the message and the action?
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Cacha Dora: Is there a disconnect.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it thinking of that example?
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Danny Gluch: Like, I bet some people are really grateful like, Hey, if we're going to stay competitive, we see everyone else doing this, you know. I remember the like
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Danny Gluch: Thanksgiving midnight, and then it was like Thanksgiving, like 9 Pm. Everyone was opening.
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Danny Gluch: and I remember, like there was such a conversation intention of to stay competitive, like retailers really had to do that.
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Cacha Dora: Evening.
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Danny Gluch: They they were forced into a box of like having.
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Cacha Dora: Sure you're right.
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Danny Gluch: It's lovely.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: So I.
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Cacha Dora: But of like, of of like actually being grateful that people were.
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Danny Gluch: Were, were able to, and willing to do this, even though there was like some little like, not not little, but like some coercive movement of like you kind of have to do this because it's part of your job, too. But like, I don't think they were wanting to do that, it's just like that. That's where the the market. The industry was moving, and they, if they wanted to compete.
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Danny Gluch: they had to. And if you are going to have this job next year.
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Danny Gluch: We can't just leave millions of dollars on the table now.
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Danny Gluch: like we can't lose this competition to our competitors and still guarantee that you have a job. We are so grateful that you're going to keep our doors open
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Danny Gluch: and like there's little tweaks to like. How everyone could have sent that message that one would be like actual, really, like.
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Cacha Dora: The genuine.
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Danny Gluch: Grateful. Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: So I I mean, I'd I'd love for someone who who knows how that messaging went. I'm sure people have studied it, because that's a real like pivotal like.
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Cacha Dora: It changed. It changed.
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Danny Gluch: Economy.
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Cacha Dora: It did. It changed the the work dynamic and and I watched. I remember watching businesses do it, and the next day they didn't right like there was definitely like A, because I think there was a huge public outcry.
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Danny Gluch: Was. People didn't like it.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And even like shoppers were like, No, like like shoppers were advocating for employees.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And shoppers were like, you're opening at 9 like I'm in a turkey coma. It was like a click switch.
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Danny Gluch: It was so weird. There was. There was one year where people were literally like fighting, and there were like brawls, and like, I think someone died in one of those like stampedes trying to get into the store. And then the next year no one opened at midnight.
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Marion: Was this, I feel like this was right before Covid, though right.
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Cacha Dora: Was it right? After this was like mid twenties.
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Cacha Dora: 20 like 2010, or something? Was.
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Danny Gluch: This is bad if all of us are thinking different dates, because maybe this has happened more than
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Danny Gluch: it was. It was in like my, my twenties, early thirties something like that. It was.
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Marion: Cause I I can remember.
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Marion: Maybe
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Marion: it's all a bit of a blur, but I think I was. I remember being in the Us. But it could be that I was visiting as opposed.
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Danny Gluch: Still my.
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Marion: In here at the time, but I can remember because I can remember hearing someone talking about.
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Marion: in fact. Well, I think I was living here because I seem to remember living in Orange County, in Brea Mall, opening at 9 o'clock on Thanksgiving night.
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Marion: and I was really confused. I was like, but.
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Danny Gluch: It's not holiday, like what you know. I thought that was crazy, and then I.
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Cacha Dora: What I mean.
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Marion: Abhorrent, because I was thinking about all these poor
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Marion: associates, employees that aren't getting to enjoy public holidays to get dragged in. And, you know. Would any of them getting paid overtime? Probably not right.
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Danny Gluch: No, no, I think they had to.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's holiday pay. Yeah.
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Marion: Really have to.
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Cacha Dora: I mean, like, it's 1 thing. If you're at a company like Disney, where it's like your contract says, 3, 65, right? We're open basically every day. You know that going into it right like. And that's where, like I, my empathy skyrocketed was for those employees who
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Cacha Dora: that wasn't in their original contract. It was a surprise to them whenever the announcement happened. But, Danny, to your point. I think that there probably were organizations that were authentically
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Cacha Dora: grateful for those people, but they were like, well, we want to be here next year, maybe, and you know, like, and we saw, like, you know again, obviously e-commerce boomed at the same when the e-commerce happened.
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Danny Gluch: That was a big change to where all of a sudden, now, we didn't have to bring in our retail workers.
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Cacha Dora: Correct.
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Danny Gluch: And because because shop online
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Danny Gluch: such a hold. But that was something I wanted to bring up, Kasha. And I'm glad you you were mentioning it, the the feeling right? Yes, maybe all of these retailers intended and tried to express their gratitude.
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Danny Gluch: But what did they do to where their employees belt that they had gratefulness
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Danny Gluch: right like it. I think that's 1 of those things. It goes to one of those sort of like communication stables of it's not necessarily what you say. It's what they hear
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Danny Gluch: right like. Were they able to feel appreciated.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Were they able to feel recognized is a big difference, and you know
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Danny Gluch: I don't know what would help me feel recognized. In that moment. I would sink.
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Cacha Dora: Not a pizza party, is the answer. Not a pizza party, is the answer.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, not a pizza.
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Cacha Dora: 3, rd one.
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Marion: And also, if I'm if I'm you know, having to work 3 jobs just to keep.
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Marion: you know my rent paid and stuff like that. And you know, am I gonna be feeling like
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Marion: full of the joys? Am I going to be feeling thankful?
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Marion: Probably not. Probably not like. So you know I I don't know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Not easy.
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Cacha Dora: No.
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Danny Gluch: Not.
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Cacha Dora: And on the flip side.
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Cacha Dora: I and Marion you saying that made me think of it like I know that I've had moments in my life like these periods of my life, where
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Cacha Dora: I have been so full of gratitude that it feels like my life feels different.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Because I'm seeing it through a lens that maybe I haven't seen it before.
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Cacha Dora: and because a lot of the trappings of those stresses fall off, for whatever reason.
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Cacha Dora: and suddenly everything does look and feel, and my experience is different, because my mental shift has is, has moved.
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Marion: Absolutely.
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Cacha Dora: And so I I think it's very interesting
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Cacha Dora: how we, as people, experience gratitude and then how it happens under
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Cacha Dora: organizations, because sometimes that gratitude. You feel it in your team.
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Cacha Dora: and you know that you, you know that everyone values you. You know that people are grateful for you as a person for the work that you do. You're grateful for them and their communication with you, and you have all those levels of gratitude and like, how does? How do those little nucleuses move throughout an organization.
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Danny Gluch: I think that's a great transition into the talk between the sort of like the individual, atomistic.
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Danny Gluch: like attitudes of of gratitude and recognition, and corporately.
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Danny Gluch: and and one of the things that that I think is really important to recognize about the sort of like
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Danny Gluch: scheduled ritual gratefulness of like Thanksgiving. And you know Valentine's Day. All those sorts of things
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Danny Gluch: is is that you can look forward to it and corporately get together to like. Come into one sort of attitude.
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Danny Gluch: one mental state of Hey, everybody! We're all taking the time to align on this and and have this moment. And it's really interesting thinking of, like the timing of Thanksgiving
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Danny Gluch: in like I was just over on the east coast. It is already cold and gray, and winter is coming.
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Danny Gluch: and I think everyone, individually and corporately has these. Winter is coming moments, right? Just you know, we all obviously in North America, have the seasons winters actually coming? But like
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Danny Gluch: the retail world, literally has, like black Fridays coming?
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Danny Gluch: And every industry has this like, Hey, this is our, this is our moment. How are we corporately going to prepare? What's that attitude that we want to get our people all aboard on board like, together with?
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Danny Gluch: And I think gratitude is one of those that can really like push you through hard times in preparation, like, Hey, guys, it's going to get worse before it gets better. But we're going to take a moment now to remember how grateful we are for where we are and what we have.
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Danny Gluch: I think it's really important, and like.
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Danny Gluch: I don't want to say that that organizations doing that is performative at all like who's ever been to like their family Thanksgiving and been like, I'm not feeling super grateful, but like
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Danny Gluch: it kind of becomes infectious. And then, by the time the Thanksgiving's over, you're like, Oh, I'm so happy to have family around
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Danny Gluch: right like organizations need that, too. They really do like man. You know, this is coming. We need everybody to have that right attitude, because it's going to help us get through winter.
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Marion: Are you trying to say that organizations are like family, Danny?
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Marion: Did we just throw back to the last episode.
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Danny Gluch: A little bit, a little.
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Cacha Dora: Amazing.
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Danny Gluch: Like, it's we're human. And and we we have relationships and.
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Cacha Dora: Freud was right.
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Danny Gluch: Right? We're we're just.
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Danny Gluch: we do, we have relationships. And we, we have the same kind of response to collective, broader relationships that that we do to our families right coming together, and remember that. Think of churches the same way, right like it's they have all of these, you know, calendar events. Why, to align everyone who's a part of this community into the same set of emotional and mental states, to prepare them for a certain thing.
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Marion: Per yeah, 100%.
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Danny Gluch: I think we should have more of these ritualized sort of moments, of whether it's gratitude or or something else. Not just on Thanksgiving like, Hey, is summer really slow? There were a lot of seasonal industries where, you know, like, Hey, these 3 months are slow. Our customers are not here.
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Danny Gluch: maybe throw a gratefulness thing right before that to to lift everyone's spirit and remind us that, hey? It's going to get bleak, but it's going to come out when, whatever spring happens on the other side.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I think it's also about like finding. And this could go for your your personal life right as well as I think it. How people approach things in business.
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Cacha Dora: But it's about finding those little moments, those little opportunities, instead of sometimes those larger ritualized ones that are probably going to be way more significant, especially when people are so busy and so frenetic on deadlines, projects, whatever whatever the case may be, to find those little moments, to have
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Cacha Dora: to to showcase and express
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Cacha Dora: a level of gratitude for someone. It's kind of like the same thing like if you were to take that Valentine's Day example, Danny, and then flip it around and be like, I don't need one day of the year to tell someone how much I love them right.
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Danny Gluch: Added the other 3.
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Cacha Dora: That's performative, right like. And then so how do I do it in those other days that actually show that person those those things, and I think it. I think a lot of.
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Cacha Dora: I think, a lot of receptiveness, of gratitude, of the person receiving. Your gratitude comes from it happening when it's not scheduled.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, yeah, it's there has to be a connection to the rest of the year, or it's it feels
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Danny Gluch: bad.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think that's the performative line. If you're scheduling it, is it real? Now.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Cacha Dora: Or is it? And that? And that's hard. Because, going back to what Marian said, it's going to be different for everyone
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Cacha Dora: but people will, how it's. It also comes down to how people receive right, like knowing how people receive those things. And I think if you can find ways to do it in those small moments in the in-betweens.
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Cacha Dora: That's how you can maybe build a potential team culture that then then turns into a department culture that then can like move its way around.
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Cacha Dora: You know, I'm an idealist. So I'm always gonna think I'm the positive. But
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Cacha Dora: I I do think it comes from the little moments first, st and not the big ones, because you could say something in the big moment.
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Cacha Dora: But then, if no one ever ever sees you
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Cacha Dora: do and express those things? Do they trust that it's real from you?
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Cacha Dora: Right? How do you reinforce it? Right? How do you reinforce your gratitude? How do you
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Cacha Dora: effectively, to a certain degree right, prove it to people.
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Danny Gluch: No, that's that's what exactly reminded me of what Marian and you were talking about with the Black Friday gratefulness. And if for 364 days of the year I feel replaceable and not vital to this organization's existence. Don't tell me all of a sudden it's like vital that I show up Thanksgiving Night. Otherwise we're not going to be able to compete and and hold our. You know.
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Danny Gluch: our organization together like that's
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Danny Gluch: don't. Don't. Don't say I'm replaceable, and and you know not. Pay me not, you know, recognize that I am vital.
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Danny Gluch: and then all of a sudden say like it's so important. We won't exist if you're not here.
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Marion: Like.
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Danny Gluch: Like those are conflicting messages, right? Not only is it like disconnected, but they're actually like a contradictory.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And that's how a lot of businesses act is. You know, the the relationship between labor and management and ownership
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Danny Gluch: is is so combative that oftentimes it gets to the point of like, Yeah, no, we don't need you. We can exist without labor.
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Danny Gluch: And and then all of a sudden, it's like. Oh, we're so grateful for you like them.
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Marion: No, you're right.
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Marion: I think that.
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Marion: that thing of being consistent and bringing that practice in every day. We talk a lot about that right?
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Marion: Like, if you think about it in our personal lives, right? If you're kind of like someone who believes in practicing gratitude daily, whether it be through journaling, or just
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Marion: prayer, or whatever it is that you choose to kind of ceremonially show that
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Marion: when we try to kind of like, take a lot of that into the workplace.
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Marion: Stuff gets in the way
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Marion: that like overwhelm that constant push that you know I've got less capacity and more demand, and I am struggling to do all of that.
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Marion: And in those moments where we're feeling the pressure, and in those moments where we're maybe not feeling as supported?
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Marion: Are we more or less likely to display our gratitude?
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Marion: You know like it's we're human at the okay.
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Cacha Dora: You know.
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Marion: I think one of the other things
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Marion: that I think a lot about is we talk a lot here about the middle manager, right?
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Marion: And I,
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Marion: on my own experience, thinking back to when I was a young manager, and no one talked to me about how to display gratitude or how to.
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Danny Gluch: It's great!
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Marion: You know my appreciation for people like, and you learn
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Marion: by observing right. And I don't think, then.
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Marion: if I take myself back to marrying 1st in the workforce.
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Marion: People really didn't talk a lot about the need for recognition as much as we do now
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Marion: in. Maybe I'm looking at that through. I don't know.
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Cacha Dora: I think it's the multi general multi generational workforce that's really making a point. There.
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Marion: It is, and it it is not a criticism in any way, shape or form.
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Cacha Dora: No, it's just changing of time, right?
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Marion: It's an evolution.
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Marion: I just don't think that whilst the thirst.
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Marion: or the demand, or the expectation of recognition and gratitude is there.
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Marion: I still don't know if we truly know how to do it and do it. Well, yes, we do it in that authentic way, like Danny. Thank you so much for putting that extra work in for me like it really meant a lot right?
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Marion: I think, on an individual level, we haven't. That's
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Marion: we've not lost that we know how to do that.
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Marion: but I don't know that as we support and shape
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Marion: early stage managers in the workforce, I don't think we really actually help them understand how to do that in a really meaningful, powerful, and scalable way.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, you know, I keep coming back to you and and tell me if this is just super off
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Danny Gluch: But there has to be some kind of parallel between the like, the the like love language, how you receive and and give, sort of like your your care and affection to your family and friends and stuff. And then how that works in the workforce. Because when you were talking about like some people don't want to be seen, they want to like. Oh, you know. Thank you. But like, don't put me in the spotlight. Other people want to get money other people want, you know. They want
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Danny Gluch: shown off. They want to be promoted right? They want more, more prestige. They want, like there has to be something there that is.
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Danny Gluch: you know, an emotional intelligence enough to know your people
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Danny Gluch: and and for them to know themselves so that they can communicate to you
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Danny Gluch: how it is they want to be recognized, and how they actually like.
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Danny Gluch: oh, wow! I feel really, really appreciated right now.
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Marion: I think this is a massive issue in organizations. I really do. I think that
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Marion: employees are telling us that they want recognition.
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Marion: But recognition means something different to everyone.
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Cacha Dora: Yes, yeah. Cause we see that in an engagement surveys left and right.
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Marion: Yeah, you know, we we see that. I mean, I think I've seen that in every company that I've ever either supported or being part of right. It's not new, but I think the expectation of what that recognition is is constantly evolving and changing, and is.
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Cacha Dora: Baby.
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Marion: You know, individualistic.
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Marion: I just
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Marion: I don't think any of us know how to handle it and how to tackle it, because it is.
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Cacha Dora: It's so nuanced, and it's so many different things, right? You can't give every. You can't give everyone a promotion, but not everyone wants a promotion. There's plenty of people who do not want to be managers, but they'd love more money. But then the business can't give more money. So then, like, what other kind of support pillars do you have? And so it really just, it's like an infinity loop of what it could potentially be, because there's so many different plots on that.
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Marion: It's true. And then, you know, for some it's like, Yeah, saying, Thank you is all very well and good. But is it going to put food on the table like it's just. It's so it it.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Oh, gosh! I don't! I don't. I don't know if we know, and I think that we spend.
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Danny Gluch: Think that's why that's the elephant.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: it's so hard to do. Well, I think I think what you're saying. You know. There, there's a baseline of?
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Danny Gluch: Does this job pay enough
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Danny Gluch: for for the market? For you know what what other people doing? Similar roles are paid and meeting, you know the needs of the area that I'm living in. Can I afford groceries housing things like that? There's definitely a baseline to where, if you're not meeting that
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Danny Gluch: any of the other appreciations are gonna feel a little icky.
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Marion: Yeah, for.
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Danny Gluch: But once once that threshold is met, it's
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Danny Gluch: it's like, now you're getting to expert mode. It's like, Okay, if we can't just be like, Hey, here's you know, your couple of percent, because that's kind of expected at this point, even right.
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Cacha Dora: No.
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Danny Gluch: Here's your your little growth. Here's your like regular performance things and bonuses, and even promotions like, and if those are expected, then those might not really hit that appreciation mark, either. It becomes this very personal. How do you like
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Danny Gluch: to be recognized?
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And when you have a mixed bag across hundreds and thousands of people.
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Cacha Dora: I don't. I don't know if businesses can get it right.
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Cacha Dora: because they're not going to get it right for the majority.
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Cacha Dora: or maybe they'll get it right for the majority, and then the minority are the ones that are left out, or vice versa. You know what I mean.
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Danny Gluch: I'm I'm sure there's like some bell curves.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, but I think.
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Danny Gluch: People, appreciate.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, but I think that's that to your point, Danny. Right? That is the elephant, right? Like it. Is it something? That is it Utopian to think it's actually gonna be.
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Cacha Dora: Every single person gets that same experience that they're looking for. Not the same experience, you know, homogenized across the line.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And is it a Utopian dream, or is it something where maybe businesses
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Cacha Dora: have to explore more? And what does that look like? And and then on the flip side, putting your little business hat on. Do businesses, have the scope
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Cacha Dora: and capacity to do that when they're also trying
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Cacha Dora: to plug every other hole that they have to plug. At the same time.
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Marion: It's Whack-a-mole.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: I see this every day, like.
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Marion: you know, in my day job we play whack-a-mole, because, just as we think, we've solved one thing, something else pops out, you know. That's just the nature of industry in life
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Marion: and catering for employees, and all of that stuff like there's never going to be a perfect Utopia.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: So I think in these moments I kind of take it back. What can I influence and control, and what is outside of my influence or control right? What the organization can do at institutional level is maybe something I can influence, but I have no control over right.
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Marion: But as a as a human being, as a manager of people, as a colleague.
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Marion: I can see. Thank you.
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Marion: I can authentically demonstrate
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Marion: when someone has done something for me or helped me with something, or whatever it might be. That's been very meaningful and impactful, and I can take a moment and authentically from my heart. Say, I am so grateful for you for doing that.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Thank you right? And we know that that has more impact for most people than
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Marion: you know, a transactional sort of
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Marion: type of way of showing gratitude.
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Danny Gluch: And I think that's kind of the heart of it is.
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Danny Gluch: It happens between actual relationships, your your peers, your colleagues, your team.
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Danny Gluch: But it's always good to have the sort of corporate reminder of like, Hey, everybody! This season is coming up.
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Danny Gluch: Let's take time this week this month to all. Remember to be grateful to those actual connections, our peers, our colleagues, our team.
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Danny Gluch: and I think that's where the power of the organization is to get every team to remember to take time to do the thing, and they're all doing it together. It's not the organization's job to be like, okay, every individual is going to be recognized in the exact way that's most fitting to them. That's what the relationships are for.
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Danny Gluch: and that's why so much of a manager's job should be managing those relationships, not just project management.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, that's.
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Danny Gluch: They have to have the time for it.
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Marion: For sure they have to have the time.
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Marion: They have to have honestly the support to understand the importance of it.
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Cacha Dora: You know we can't be a mandate, and then be like goodbye.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah. Mandate, my least favorite word this year.
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Danny Gluch: Mandated. Required
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Cacha Dora: Memos. Yeah. But I think all those things. I think I think that's we go back to that conversation of the middle manager, and I think that there's a real unfortunate truth
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Cacha Dora: to the expectations that are placed on them with a serious lack of support.
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Marion: Oh, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: So you have the expectation that you should do everything that Danny just kind of talked about between the relationship management and the project management dichotomy, but also.
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Cacha Dora: Marion, to your point. These middle managers have this expectation that sometimes isn't even verbalized.
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Marion: Yeah, that's true.
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Cacha Dora: You know, and and it's definitely not written down.
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Cacha Dora: And so how do they get support when they might not even especially if they're a new manager. They might not even know the words that they're being expected to perform on. And you know I think it.
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Cacha Dora: you get a little bit of it because some managers are just gonna have that natural instinct.
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Cacha Dora: Others are gonna go to their people teams and be like, I'm a new manager. I don't know what I'm doing, and the people teams will be like, Oh, blah! Blah! Blah! Or it'll come from some manager that's like, I expect that you are gonna do this, and then they're just like, but what is the this.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, you know, like.
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Cacha Dora: It's a mixed bag and it and the the sad part is that
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Cacha Dora: if you're a new middle manager, you don't know the difference yet.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And that's where I really think that, you know, when you become a new manager supervisor
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Danny Gluch: as much as I don't love discs and Myers-briggs, and those sorts of things. I think it's really important to be exposed
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Danny Gluch: to that kind of that sort of level 2 of understanding, who people are.
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Cacha Dora: That's how they operate.
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Danny Gluch: Employers, and how they operate, and how they want to be communicated to, because how they want to be communicated to is very closely tied to how they want to be recognized.
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Cacha Dora: And certain ones go deeper than others. Like the Cliftonstrengths will go a lot, deeper than maybe the Mbti will, right, like
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Cacha Dora: they all have their different levels, and
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Cacha Dora: a lot of people don't know how to vocalize what they're looking for. But those assessments can actually help them in that way. For people who.
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Cacha Dora: you know, haven't had a crash course in Ei.
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Danny Gluch: But how many organizations have a real, robust training on those sets
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Danny Gluch: of of you know, whatever personality, preference, sort of work, style things to where the the managers feel equipped to do it.
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Danny Gluch: because it's not something that's really natural for most people. Maybe anyone
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Danny Gluch: right? It's part of our maturation process as as humans of like, oh, wow! There's there's a deeper understanding I can have of people. And I think that you know those things as flawed as they are, they give us words, they give us.
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Cacha Dora: Swing.
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Danny Gluch: Wage. They give us
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Danny Gluch: the ability to put it front of mind so that we're actually thinking about it as opposed to just ignoring it all the time.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Well, I think it's always helpful, regardless of what the tool is. I think it's helpful for anyone to have something that they can lean on that helps them move outside of their own experience. Because that's the way that we relate. We relate through our own experiences. But our own experiences tied to ourselves. There's a huge world out there, and a lot of different experiences that we haven't had. And I think that's where those tools really can shine, whether whatever that tool is right could be any tool out there.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: But there's so much of a big bad world out there, and a big bright world out there. And
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Cacha Dora: We only know what we know, and that's really little at the end of the day, which is why I'm excited to be in school, because I'm learning so much more than I ever could have on my own but you also learn the same thing through your work experience. You learn the same thing through open, psychologically safe conversations with friends, peers, and colleagues.
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Cacha Dora: because you're going to absorb those things, and that will help you in those conversations, should you have to be open to it. But
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Cacha Dora: Those tools! I think it's good to have any form of tool that'll help you move beyond your own level of self.
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Marion: Yeah, indeed.
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Danny Gluch: That was very, very interesting. I still don't know where I land on a lot of this, and it's really hard, right? I think one thing that that really comes to the.
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Danny Gluch: you know, highlighted for me is how difficult
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Danny Gluch: organizations have right where maybe they're not trying to be performative. But it comes off as performative.
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Danny Gluch: I would really, you know, if if that's the the vibe you're getting, and you're still. You're trying to recognize people. But your surveys come back like, oh, we just want recognition.
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Danny Gluch: Think about the 364 days as opposed to the the big one. That was one of the big things for me, and
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Danny Gluch: and also just like being adaptable and and really leaning into managers and teams, being able to
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Danny Gluch: do this work and not have it rely on. Oh, leadership's gonna have, you know, they're going to do something that's going to make everyone feel appreciated. If we do that. That's the big mess that's not going to happen. I don't think it's possible. I think they're 2 different things.
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Marion: No, they are 2 different things, for sure. But what are what are we grateful for?
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Danny Gluch: That's what I was about to ask. I don't know.
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Cacha Dora: You don't know.
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Danny Gluch: About it all week.
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Danny Gluch: I'll let you guys go first.st I'm like the person at the menu at the restaurant looking at the menu just needs a little more time.
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Marion: I don't know. I mean, like for me. I think there's just been a massive amount of
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Marion: personal growth this year.
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Marion: Having gone through a lot of challenges. Health, wise work, wise
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Marion: financially, you know, personal relationships, like lots of transitions, lots of changes, lots of difficult things. But
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Marion: you know, always come out of these things a lot more evolved and and
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Marion: less than beforehand. And I think that's the the trick, right and
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Marion: you know, I'm in my new
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Marion: house in my new state, and I'm enjoying full weather, and the dogs are chasing squirrels, and those things make me really grateful.
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Marion: you know, very grateful, in fact, because very blessed.
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Danny Gluch: I love that Marian.
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Marion: I think.
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Cacha Dora: I think, on a similar vein. For me. It's been a very much of a wild ride of a year
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Cacha Dora: between work and school and life, and all the things that it's currently comprised of. And for me, the thing that I'm the most grateful for is my community
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Cacha Dora: is that little, you know, it's wild when you kind of think about it. But like as we move through adulthood, we build a community around ourselves, whether we're aware of it or not like, it's not an intentional thing of like I'm Cherry picking these humans out of the billions on this planet. But somehow you end up with these bonds, with people that are unshakable. You 2 are included in that.
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Cacha Dora: And
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Cacha Dora: it's it's really wild when you think about like man, this year would have been so much harder without those people. And now that I'm on, you know that other side of things now, I have that gratitude of looking at all of those people
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Cacha Dora: and being like I'm so glad I had you, and I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm so glad that I can support you as you go through these things, too.
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Cacha Dora: And so for me like that's like the one word for me is what I'm grateful for is the community that I have
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Cacha Dora: somehow nestled myself in.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean similar to that, I think
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Danny Gluch: you know. And this is probably coming off the trip to go see my brother and nieces. I'm really grateful for family.
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Danny Gluch: it's that.
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Danny Gluch: And you know that loyalty that's just sort of built in that you don't have to question.
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Danny Gluch: That is just. It's so comforting and so nice, and
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Danny Gluch: as as messy and as tough as family can be. Sometimes it really is great to feel supported and to spend time together, and Brendan is one of his favorite things so we were going to Rhode Island, and you know he was noticing different accents. So hearing, like my little 6 year old, try to say, like Park, the car in the garage, because he was hearing the New England accent was the funniest thing because he thought we were going to like England. England.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, goodness!
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Danny Gluch: He thought we were gonna be like talking to like British people and their accent and Scottish people. So he wanted to be like, how do they say, squirrel? Again.
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Cacha Dora: Which.
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Danny Gluch: Made me laugh because Mary had said Squirrel, and I'm gonna need to clip that just for Brendan. So Brendan can hear, Mary.
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Danny Gluch: you just help Brendan to call his Auntie Marion, and I'll tell you.
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Danny Gluch: You know what we'll have to set that up.
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Cacha Dora: Could come with a list of words he just needs you to say for him.
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Marion: Yeah, trust me.
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Marion: I get it all the time. Say, say, furry boots is a favorite of people's for some.
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Cacha Dora: Burglar alarm.
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Cacha Dora: There you go. Yeah, yeah. But.
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Marion: But I never excite you when I see it, because I always it's always like burglar alarm.
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Marion: like I don't struggle with it like unlike some of my.
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Cacha Dora: Viral viral Scots men and women
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Cacha Dora: that one. Yeah, bless him!
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, because, like, yesterday was not my best day parenting. It was. It was a tough one. We had plans. It didn't go. Well, I wasn't feeling very appreciated and like that that affected me, but to know that we still had a good time together, and that I could still be there as like a caretaker. Just was like a really good reminder just personally of like, Hey, there's still a lot of joy. And and, you know, adventure to be had. So
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Danny Gluch: family family is definitely what I'm thankful for.
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Marion: Well, good.
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Danny Gluch: And also the listeners.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you.
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Cacha Dora: Community.
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Marion: Yes, honestly, this community has been amazing. I know we talk the 3 of us constantly about how much we've grown and learned.
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Danny Gluch: And how
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Danny Gluch: you know, doing this and having this community has been so personally, professionally just, fruitful, and fulfilling. So thank you all for being a part of this community for listening for the conversations on Linkedin, for coming and joining us as guests, or as just supporters of the program. Thank you all so much.
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Danny Gluch: If you want to email us, you can at elephant@thefearlesspx.com, and we'll see you next time.
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Danny Gluch: Bye.
