The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Strong, Silent, and Suffering: Miscarriage, Motherhood, and the Workplace with Ashley Kera
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Pregnancy loss, infertility, and the challenges of motherhood remain some of the biggest workplace taboos—until now. In this deeply personal and powerful episode, co-hosts Marion, Cacha, and Danny sit down with Ashley Kera to break the silence around miscarriage, the emotional toll of pregnancy in the workplace, and the impossible balancing act so many women face when navigating career and family.
Ashley shares her own journey—one marked by loss, resilience, and tough choices—and unpacks the unspoken pressures that working mothers and aspiring parents experience every day. From outdated policies to workplace shame, we dive into why so many suffer in silence and what organizations (and individuals) can do to change that.
- Why is pregnancy loss still so difficult to talk about at work?
- How do corporate cultures contribute to shame and silence?
- What policies actually support working parents—and which ones just look good on paper?
- How can managers and colleagues show real support?
Whether you've experienced this firsthand, know someone who has, or just want to be a better ally in the workplace, this episode is a must-listen.
Guest Spotlight:
Ashley Kera is the founder of Kera Coaching & Consulting LLC, specializing in talent strategy, people operations, and leadership development. With 13+ years of experience, she helps startups and mid-sized organizations solve complex talent challenges while driving retention and performance. She holds a Master’s in Clinical Psychology and an Organizational Coaching Certification from Columbia University, bringing a people-first approach to every challenge she tackles.
Connect with Ashley: LinkedIn
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🚀 Your Hosts on LinkedIn
- 🐘 Marion Anderson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/marionandersonpx
- 🐘 Danny Gluch — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgluch
- 🐘 Cacha Dora — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cachadora
💬 Like what you hear?
Follow/subscribe so you don’t miss an episode — and if this one hit home, leave a ★★★★★ review to help more people find the show.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024 — fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
Topics: employee surveys, listening culture, trust, people analytics, psychological safety, employee voice, ...
Season 2 Episode 12
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hi.
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Danny Gluch: And this week we have an amazing guest. Ashley, Kara Ashley. Welcome to elephant in the org.
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Ashley Kera: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
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Danny Gluch: This week's elephant in the org is pregnancy. Pregnancy challenges infertility and miscarriages, and how that associates in the workplace. And we're really excited for this one. Everyone, Ashley, tell us a little bit about your background and a little bit about your story, and why you wanted to talk about this with us today.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, thank you. So my background is in talent, strategy, people, operations and program management. For the bulk of my career. After I earned my
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Ashley Kera: psychology and my organizational coaching certification. I built an early talent revenue generating program at a law firm, so I pretty much wore every hat you can kind of consider me like a mom and a Mini CEO. And I'm an entrepreneur at heart, and I really love helping people and also making workplaces better to not only support the people, but the business brand and bottom line.
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Danny Gluch: Wow, yeah, it sounds like you're a mom already. But that's only.
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Ashley Kera: Quite a compliment.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's that's on the near horizon for you. Right? You are coming to the end of a long journey.
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Ashley Kera: Yes, I'm going to be welcoming a little girl next week. She doesn't seem to want to come out so an induction.
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Danny Gluch: Well, I'm sure very worth waiting for. Congratulations so exciting.
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Ashley Kera: Yes, and I've wanted her. I've wanted a child now for 2 years. It's been a long road, and that's also why I wanted to share this. A lot of people do not speak about the journey and the matrescence process. So of becoming a mother and wanting to
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Ashley Kera: it really changes you in ways that were unforeseen for me, and I think that until you're experiencing it yourself, you don't realize the magnitude of how much it changes. Virtually every aspect of your life, particularly your career, and it just changed the trajectory of my career. You know what I prioritize everything, and it was a very lonely solo journey, and it shouldn't have to be, because it's not shameful, and a lot of people go through it.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's 1 of those things that when it happens to, you know, it doesn't happen to a single person, it happens to a couple right? And so often that couple, it feels like they're the 1st people to ever go through it, because it's such a taboo topic. Even with our close personal relationships.
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Danny Gluch: How did that work with having support from family friends and also in the workplace? Were you able to talk about it and share the grief, the struggles, the time needed that you needed for all of the work that you were doing.
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Ashley Kera: No, I didn't share it. It was just me and my husband. I didn't share it with anybody. I disclosed a little bit to my mother, but I had, you know, losses like there was one miscarriage that was particularly, I mean, I'll never forget.
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Ashley Kera: But no, I didn't disclose any of it our struggles, any of that, I think a lot of it was stress induced. But at the workplace they called me a warrior, and I worked in an environment in professional services. You don't show up with emotions. I was leading a department I was responsible for, like 100 people like, you know, working directly with the founders and the
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Ashley Kera: senior leadership. I wanted to come off as tough, competent on my a game, and when you're really my mind was elsewhere a lot of times, and I didn't want people to sense that. But even with family
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Ashley Kera: I come from like a tough sort of family where you don't show emotions, but I don't believe in that, so I didn't reach out. I felt
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Ashley Kera: I felt shame. Honestly.
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Marion: It's such a shame is is such a horrible toxic emotion that it does so much sustained damage to us. And yet, you know, we all feel it, and in various ways and different things trigger it, and
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Marion: something you said a minute ago just just made me think about miscarriages in general
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Marion: I had gone to see my gynaecologist not that long ago, and and he kept me waiting for a really long time.
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Marion: And you know, I was getting like, Oh, God, I need to get back to work blah blah! And then when he came in eventually, he looked really exhausted.
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Marion: and
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Marion: the the empath in me is like, Are you okay? And he he told me that you had a really long night in the or you had a patient who had
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Marion: starting to Miss Caddy, and with everything going on here in Arkansas and other Red States he wasn't able to give her the healthcare that she needed.
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Marion: And he looked
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Marion: feeling really beaten down to be honest. And it when you were talking. It just made me think about that, too, because it's not just the the shame potentially that we feel as women by, you know, struggling or not being able to, or going through miscarriages, but also the external environment in which many of us are surrounded at the moment is, is piling even more. You know, difficult emotions on top. So
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Marion: what what a really difficult time to to navigate this just generally.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, it was. I remember when I lost so was a boy when I lost my son, which I'll never forget. It was on a Friday, and of course there was a fire drill at work. I you would think like I felt gutted.
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Ashley Kera: But I mean, it's kind of crazy to think about.
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Ashley Kera: I actually, my husband was like was like, What's wrong with you? Because he started getting really upset.
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Ashley Kera: I got up and I went back to work thankfully. I was home, so I was working remotely. I addressed the fire drill.
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Ashley Kera: and I worked late pretty like till like 8 o'clock that night. Something like that.
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Ashley Kera: and I also asked a colleague in Hr. I was like, I didn't tell them like what exactly happened, but I just said.
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Ashley Kera: What's the policy bereavement? Leave for miscarriages?
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Marion: There is none.
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Ashley Kera: So, thank goodness, I had the weekend, but I showed up on Monday. I pretended like everything was fine.
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Ashley Kera: Nothing was fine.
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Ashley Kera: I just felt like torn up like. It's a private battle when you go through things, and that's why a lot of women don't disclose to. When they get pregnant. They wait, they say, wait for the 1st trimester for this pregnancy.
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Ashley Kera: I didn't tell people until I was halfway through the pregnancy, and even now I'm like always nervous. It like really traumatizes you
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Ashley Kera: because you never know what happens. And like there was no reason for mine. So, like a lot of the like, I heard stress. You're too stressed out. Your body's too stressed out.
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Ashley Kera: That's not helpful.
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Danny Gluch: Just makes more stress.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, cause, you.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Can't work in a Utopia. There's always going to be some level of stress that emerges, whether it's like Marion mentioned, right internal and external
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Cacha Dora: and I think especially like the the workplace, is not suited to address
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Cacha Dora: things like shame, even if it's creating shame.
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Cacha Dora: And the the fact that you shoved it down
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Cacha Dora: to get the job done. I think
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Cacha Dora: I think that speaks to a larger systemic thing that we experience as women in the workplace of that. When you hear that, like you're a warrior, or you know you're a boss, be? Well, there's a lot that you have to set aside to have that other persona, that other kind of caricature, and there's a whole other side of you that's not exposed.
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Cacha Dora: whether you feel safe to show it or not so.
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Cacha Dora: I think that
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Cacha Dora: the silence that comes from pushing it down can can create the shame. At the same time, it's like a big circle. I would imagine.
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Ashley Kera: For sure. And also even a lot of people don't know what to say when there's loss, or people are going through a difficult time. And so it's almost easier not to say anything, because you don't want people to look at you like. It's very telling when people they have that look in their eyes, you know of like
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Ashley Kera: oh, I'm sorry, but it doesn't come off as empathy. It's almost like, in a way like.
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Cacha Dora: Eddie.
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Ashley Kera: Making me uncomfortable. Yeah, like.
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Danny Gluch: You know, it's it's yeah. They can be frustrated that they put a you put a burden on them like it's not even pity. It's almost like anger. It's a very odd
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Danny Gluch: emotional exchange. And I get why, people don't want to talk about it because of things like that.
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Danny Gluch: But there's so much grief like it's it's 1 of those. If this was, you know, 3 months down the road, and the baby had entered the world and breathed its 1st breath, and cried, and then passed like we would expect, like an extended bereavement, like there's not a lot of emotional difference between that and
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Danny Gluch: having a miscarriage at the time you did when when you knew the the sex of the baby, and you were probably picking out names. If you didn't have one already like, I really wish we could have those conversations more and have the ability to support couples, families going through that because it's devastating like you, said.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah. And it's a long journey. There are a lot of people like there aren't protections in the workplace, like, if people do Ivf, if they're just struggling, and they're trying to conceive. Naturally, then, through pregnancy, like a lot of people have really challenging pregnancies. And then what's also really not spoken about is the 4th trimester postpartum, the amount of mothers that have courageously come out and shared. They've struggled with postpartum, depression and anxiety that is really severe. But the workplace is just.
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Ashley Kera: You're afraid you're going to be.
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Ashley Kera: You're going to basically ruin your career, or you're going to be pushed out for being human and going through a human experience. And it's also the reality. Like we as women carrying children, our hormones go haywire. It's like a roller coaster. We literally cannot control stuff. And so
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Ashley Kera: you don't want to be penalized for that. So a lot of women don't know how to navigate that. What do I do. It feels like you have to choose between your career, or wanting to, you know. Be a parent that really like shows up even my husband. He's going. His company graciously offers 3 months of paternity leave. But we were like, do you definitely take it, or is it going to like negatively affect you?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's all those you know. There's the laws, and there's the policies. And then there's those unwritten things
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Danny Gluch: like, when do you
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Danny Gluch: you disclose in an interview process. You know, as a man or a woman that you guys are actively trying to get pregnant
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Danny Gluch: as as much as the law is, hey? You can't make the hiring decision on that. I've been in those rooms with hiring managers, and I'll never forget my my business class in college. The 1st one I went to is like a freshman intro to business, and they were like, Be wary of people who are trying to start families. They're not going to be able to show up. And I'm like, is that what you can't say that?
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Danny Gluch: But it's such a deep seeded feeling, and belief that
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Danny Gluch: starting a family that early. Whether you're getting pregnant or taking care of young kids is a a loss to company productivity as opposed to a hey? We're supporting this family, going forward.
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Ashley Kera: And I'm really an advocate of people educating themselves on the laws you mentioned like during interview processes. So that happened to me recently, I knew to wait until the offer stage. They were interviewing remotely, even though it was a hybrid position. But while
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Ashley Kera: pregnancy is not a disability, and there are laws where you can't be discriminated against for being pregnant. The reality is, you are like, I experienced that twice, and I understand business needs. But you need to be wise. I tell people all the time, especially since I worked at a law firm like
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Ashley Kera: you need to be educated, know when to disclose things. A lot of people will wait to also disclose their pregnancy with Hr. If you've been there at least a year, and you qualify for Fmla, you want to disclose that? Because what if you have like certain complications, you have severe nausea, you have a high risk pregnancy. You maybe you're covered under Ada, you want to get that paperwork in sooner rather than later, and
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Ashley Kera: I know it's difficult to also manage if you're in a hybrid workplace or in person, too, because you don't. Necessarily. You deserve your privacy, too, and discretion. Nobody needs to know all of your business. It should be up to you what you want to disclose, and you really hope that Hr. And and or your manager can really help support you.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, especially, I know even from
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Cacha Dora: you know, I think for a lot of people who are people managers. And I'm going to say who are not toxic people, managers. What's that caveat to kind of put on top when you do have employees who are in those early stages of pregnancy? There's a lot of doctor's appointments. There's a lot of sick days that are happening, and for those managers who really care
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Cacha Dora: and and are able to provide that psychological safety to be like, hey, is everything. Okay? I'm starting to get concerned because you're starting to see people's attendance shift right? Being able to provide a space where you're not
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Cacha Dora: jeopardizing
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Cacha Dora: the relationship you have with your direct report, or that your colleague and not doing something that's gonna get you slapped around by Hr. But by being able to be like, Hey, like I'm I'm kind of worried. What's going on. That's also a hard place for expectant mothers and fathers to be as well, because at some point, not all the time. But it depends on like you were talking about Ashley. If you've got a difficult pregnancy that's kick starting
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Cacha Dora: you don't want to disclose, but yet people are starting to notice your attendance, and that's such a a hard thing when you're in a toxic environment versus when you're in a, not toxic environment, people actually are checking in on you because they care versus the
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Cacha Dora: assumed negative intent.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Ashley Kera: For sure. And just even when I said my mind was elsewhere, I think that people eventually started to notice I wasn't the same Ashley showing up in the workplace because I used to be like work, was my everything. I was living in an office. I was so about like building the program, and I was still all into that.
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Ashley Kera: But it just my priority shifted a little bit, and I wanted space for that other thing. So I was no longer going to the Evening events, and all of that, and that was perceived, I think, largely by a lot as me checking out. I didn't want to rise in the organization. That wasn't the case at all.
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Marion: Hmm! Isn't it great to be a woman.
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Ashley Kera: It's hard it is. It is so challenging, too, and all the and like. I'll say this. But like when you learn about like the hormones like, you know. Now I learned about like pregnancy. I have like I mean, I'll be. I know I'm going to be humble, but like I don't know what it'll be like postpartum. Well, I have tremendous anxiety. Well, I have depression. I I don't know
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Ashley Kera: like I could go through that. And then, when you get into perimenopause and menopause, this isn't spoken about, and it's counted against you. There's so much discrimination for age. But also there's the this. It's like a motherhood like tax, too.
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Ashley Kera: that you don't want to be as present. But that's it's just. You have a human being, too, that you want to take care of, and I hate that you have to choose both. That's also what prompted me to start my own consultancy. I wanted the flexibility. I didn't want to ask for permission to take my child to a pediatrician appointment, and have it be counted against me, or
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Ashley Kera: ask, Can I work from home because my child is sick, and they're like, you know, in office attendance, like. Now we're starting to tally that against you like I I didn't want that.
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Marion: Yeah, we. We've just taken this massive step backwards into.
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Marion: you know, somewhere in the 20th century, even the 19th century where?
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Marion: we had for this period of golden time, trust, and flexibility in a lot of places which just evaporated overnight. And now
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Marion: women are, I mean, and and fathers. But again, a lot of this does fall on the female. Just
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Marion: that's fact. Right? Yeah, and
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Marion: yeah, we're being punished in all directions. We're being penalized in all directions. And you know the the key is really simple flexibility. Trust people to do the job that you're paying them to do. Yes, obviously not all jobs can be done from home. We know that right. But even traditional jobs that
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Marion: we thought couldn't be done from home. Many jobs are starting to be able to take on a hybrid nature. Nursing is a good one where nurses there's certain roles where they're, you know, in
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Marion: on shift in hospital whatever 3 days, and then 2 days are writing up clinical notes at home. You know. There's
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Marion: there's ways to do it. But yet, all of a sudden we've just taken this massive step backwards, and we're becoming that authoritarian workplace
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Marion: that we all really pushed against so hard.
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Marion: And I don't know.
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Marion: I don't know how we ended up back here.
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Marion: but we can't continue to try and and, you know, support our families. Support women. Say that we're a family 1st culture
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Marion: boom. We're not, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, we can't. We can't expect thriving families and kids and people wanting to have kids and then make the environment awful for them to try to have kids, Ashley. We were talking before the show, and you were sharing about
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Danny Gluch: decisions about parental leave, and how it can even be this sort of like political decision of Wow. It's so great that you're offering this.
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Danny Gluch: Can we take it without actually being sort of counted against us?
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Danny Gluch: Talk about what that feels like? What are the emotions of
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Danny Gluch: being put in that corner? And how do you navigate it? How how are you guys thinking about navigating it?
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, my husband is going to take the generous paternity. Leave the 3 months. We're going to divide it up since I have my own consultancy right now. Our insurance is through him, and when you're pregnant and bringing a child into this world, insurance is everything it means so much so.
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Ashley Kera: you know. You never know, with jobs and everything like that. He's valued all of that. But I think that there's an increasing mistrust between employers and employees, so he will be taking it. I'm also going to take some time as well, but I think that a lot of people I know many friends they question, I mean, should I sign on? Should I work? I know people. They just delivered a baby.
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Ashley Kera: and they sign on to work at a hospital like, do you really want that memory? Like I'm listen. I'm a workaholic at heart. But like you really want that memory, you just
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Ashley Kera: had a beautiful child. You want that like sacred time, especially the golden hour, you're going to sign on to work. You're not even remember what you were working on like. Probably like 2 months later, and they have. I mean, the Us. Is way behind other countries in terms of leave policies. But if you have it definitely, take it.
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Ashley Kera: I think a lot of people do get worried because there are like, I know, plenty of people. They got laid off after they lost promotion opportunities because they were away. So it's weighing like, what are your career goals?
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Ashley Kera: Where do you work
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Ashley Kera: and what's feasible? I know a lot of women, too. That's why they started their own business as well, because they wanted to have that control. But then the catch 22 of that you're not working. You're not making money.
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Ashley Kera: So yeah, it's I don't think there's a win win. And there are organizations that really do support. But
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Ashley Kera: to what extent.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's what do you think? How can that trust? Because I think a lot of the extent I'm doing, scare quotes is about, do I really trust what's being offered to me? And
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Danny Gluch: how can companies build that trust? Because I definitely think it comes from their side?
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Danny Gluch: How can they build that trust where they can really, their employees can believe. I'm not going to have this counted against me when I go for a promotion, or when they're doing a round of redundancies. You know. What? What can companies do.
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Ashley Kera: Well, the proof is in the pudding. What? What are they currently doing? What are they showcasing like by example? I think also, they need to be more transparent around the policies and support available even before people, you know want to conceive what's available, and then just how it works when they're taking leave. But are you actually promoting people who have taken leave? And they've come back
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Ashley Kera: like people look around like people are astute like, you know. So that will also factor into things. But actually
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Ashley Kera: do what you say you're willing to do. So you say you're going to support. What does that look like, break that down like, be specific about it. And also there's sometimes a mistrust with Hr. As well. Who are the people they can go to like, who are the, you know? Do they have to disclose everything because people have are have a right to their privacy and also talk about.
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Ashley Kera: you know, have it be an open discussion? What are the career advancement opportunities? So even factor in? If I take leave, say it's 3 months, whatever it is. 6 months some companies have extended unpaid leave.
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Ashley Kera: What does this mean? Also? What does the re onboarding look like? Most companies don't do that. So they're like, you know. Good luck on having a baby enjoy your leave, and then they'll call like the week before they're set to come back, and they're like you're set to come back.
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Ashley Kera: and they just sign on. But there's no like re onboarding like that needs to change.
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Danny Gluch: You're a different worker with a baby, whether you're stay at home. Hybrid, whatever it is, you are a different worker with different needs. After the baby comes, for sure.
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Ashley Kera: And also companies need to acknowledge that that's still very forgotten that 4th trimester, too. Women like me myself. I love pregnancy. I actually love being pregnant. I was fortunate. I've had a really great pregnancy. I don't know what the postpartum is going to be like. I'm a 1st time. Mom.
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Ashley Kera: I have no idea I'm about to be humbled. And also, if you're planning to breastfeed, what? What are the accommodations for pumping? I know if somebody, their boss walked into them like into their office, pumping. But knock like there needs. There need to be boundaries as well. You also can't expect people maybe, to immediately travel like you need to think about these things, but people shouldn't be afraid to speak up and say, this is what I need, and it's not saying, you know this is what I need like.
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Ashley Kera: You know more money, this and that. It's this is what I need to sustain myself and my child and my family.
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Marion: And this is where there is a lot of crossover with disability, you know, as someone who has a disability being able to advocate for what you need is really difficult, because you're worried that people are seeing you as oh, she's too much, or she's asking too much, or she thinks she's special, or this that the other, and I think that
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Marion: I would assume having not carried his child, but, like the the similarities, are, are pretty pretty, pertinent right like, you know, you don't want to be
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Marion: seen as asking too much or or being too much. But at the same time, you know, it's important to your own health and well-being, and to be able to function and to be successful in your role. There was something else that you said a minute ago. That made me really reflect hard on
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Marion: the world that we're living in right now, like you only have to look at Linkedin. There's a whole plethora of posts of people who have either been let go from Federal Government jobs, or even companies like Meta, where they've had these performance related.
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Marion: Layoffs. And there's so many horror stories in there. Women, yeah, who have been out on, you know. Fmla.
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Marion: had babies you know, been laid off.
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Marion: told that it was performance related, and they're like.
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Marion: I haven't been at work. I've been having a baby right? And so, you know, we've got a whole sea of legal cases that are already starting to kick off.
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Marion: But the damage is done like all of the work that's been put into helping create psychologically safe environments for for people having kids, for people with
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Marion: disabilities, with medical issues, whatever
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Marion: it's just been, it's just been wiped away in the matter in a matter of weeks. Yes, it wasn't perfect. It definitely wasn't perfect before. But
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Marion: wow! Like the damage that's been sustained in the last 3 weeks.
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Marion: I don't know how we ever built back from that.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, I think that's even part of a larger conversation about the increasing disconnection between employers and employees. Even the hiring process. Look how fractured. It is but the way also in which companies will lay off, and the reasons I know people that were laid off on maternity leave. And you know, coming. I'm not a lawyer, but coming from legal background.
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Ashley Kera: There are a ton of loopholes. So people really need to educate themselves and be strategic. And I am a believer like. Don't put all of your eggs in one basket. Know what your rights are. Put things in writing, too. You can't control certain things. You certainly can't, but it shouldn't detract from your experience of, you know.
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Ashley Kera: pregnancy becoming a mother, any of that. And I'll also say, don't compare, because I think some people like, you know, previous generations will say, Well, I had kids, and I went right back to work, and I did it. So you should be able to do it.
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Ashley Kera: We're in a different world. We're like, it's just kind of like the In office versus remote to provide flexibility. We're on all the time. We're always connected. So what's the difference? If you take 2 h to go to an appointment and then you come back and work. But
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Ashley Kera: you know there are these labels people put on, and all of a sudden you're put in this box, and you know that's your value. That's not how it should be, how many people on applications aren't going to say, yes, I have a disability. How many people aren't going to disclose they're pregnant because they're like that'd be stupid like it's going to be counted against me. That shouldn't be. It's part of who you are. It is not
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Ashley Kera: who you are entirely, and a lot of people in workplaces like speaking of disability, like anxiety, depression. How many people have that?
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Ashley Kera: They actually do have a disability, and they're not getting accommodations because they think that it will be damaging to them for their, you know, job security and also career advancement.
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Marion: Well, I mean, if anything, that the last weeks of the last few weeks have taught us is exactly that they're right, you know you unless you work for an exceptional organization of which, sadly, there's they're few and far between. That really does embrace true inclusion.
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Marion: This is where we are, and it's nuts because
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Marion: we're all humans, the majority, or certainly many have families, have kids have
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Marion: caring responsibilities. And yet we still do this to each other like. It
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Marion: makes no sense. It makes sense. It doesn't.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, that's a good question. Why? And why aren't we? It's like, I think, more people are willing to talk about it. But why aren't companies willing to change? I think they're afraid that of bringing emotions into the workplace. I think they're afraid of, you know
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Ashley Kera: the culture getting quote unquote, too soft, and it jeopardizing the business. But imagine, if you invested in your people and you saw them as the whole person. We all have issues. We all have things. You know that this is life is hard. But imagine, if you actually had, like
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Ashley Kera: inclusive and equitable policies, to really support them, think about how much better their performance would be their retention. And all of that ties to your financials, too, and your reputation. So it's an employer's market right now. The job market is very difficult, but that will change, and I can say, having managed Gen. Z. Folks, oh, I don't think they're going to put up with this as rising leaders. They want to see the change they demand. It.
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Marion: Well, I mean they. They've seen their parents, their Gen. X. Parents, and and
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Marion: burn out and capitulate to capitalism. And
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Marion: they they don't choose that for themselves, and neither they should. None of us should. Right.
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Marion: And again, going back to that psychological safety piece, like, I think
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Marion: we know that what we should be able to ask for, and it may even be there like, I think, unlimited. Pto is the classic example, right? The classic example of. Here's this great surface level policy that is
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Marion: in theory meant to help us to help us feel more rested and to help us to function better, and in fact, it does the complete opposite, because the psychological safety isn't there to take the leave? In the 1st place, right? And it, you know.
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Marion: that is just so common across so many of our wellness and people led initiatives. We don't trust them.
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Danny Gluch: You know, we just. We don't trust our people.
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Marion: -
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Danny Gluch: And I think it goes both way. I think the people don't trust the organizations, and I think that's been very, very earned.
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Danny Gluch: And what were you saying you were saying, Ashley?
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Danny Gluch: About the emotions in the workplace? The companies are scared of having that.
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Danny Gluch: and I think that's part of the reason why there's such a a struggle to bring up.
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Danny Gluch: We're trying to have a child. We need this time for a procedure, or I have some extra doctor's appointments, and it's hard to even have that conversation. It
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Danny Gluch: it just. It baffles me that there aren't like family advocates in the Hr. Team
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Danny Gluch: like we're here not just to advocate for you individually, but your whole family. Oh, your kid's sick! Great! Oh, they have a disability! Great! Here are, you know, accommodations like
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Danny Gluch: that would build trust. But they're like the opposite of that. They're trying to vet and hedge against every accommodation that might be useful. And they're saying, Well, what does that cost us? We can't do that to everyone. Oh, no, this is a slippery slope, and and that just builds such a divide that
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Danny Gluch: I'm not sure that it can get bridged. I really don't, not. Under the current circumstances. It is so brutal that people can't even talk about it.
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Ashley Kera: So what do people do like? More people are leaving the, you know companies, you know also the cost of childcare, this whole separate discussion, but because they don't want to deal with this like even my last appointments, like at the last several weeks of your pregnancy, you go in once a week.
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Ashley Kera: Some of these employments, you know. You wait. It's like 2, 3 h like you. You think it'd be in and out. But, like, imagine doing that a lot of employers like. Also, if they didn't have kids, if they didn't go through the same experience, they think you're milking it.
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Ashley Kera: You're not milking it. So there's there's just like mistrust. But then there's this fear and stress is not good during pregnancy, too. And also, if you're a new parent. Your sleep deprived like you kind of like. Don't know like what is what people inherently do want to do a good job. They do. They want to add value and make an impact. But you can't.
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Ashley Kera: They're not showing up as the same person. They are still offer tremendous value, of course, but they're different. They just had a human being. Their life has forever changed. So the question is, what can workplaces do? There's a double standard. You'll see people leaders who have 4 kids and whatnot, but then
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Ashley Kera: they don't want to offer accommodations, because time is money, especially in some environments like professional services, where literally, you Bill by the hour, too. So that's counted against you. But they don't know what to say, so they want to cover themselves legally, and people want to be empathetic. But at the same time they're like, well, it's business. It's not personal. So I mean, what do each of you think like? What?
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Ashley Kera: Because we can't just say it's broken, and that's it. We have to keep trying. And I think they're speaking up and educating. That's really important. But, like, how are we going to affect the change? I think it does need to come from the top down. But
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Ashley Kera: what more can be done.
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Marion: Does. But but I want to point out something. And again, this isn't a sweeping generalization, but the the higher up
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Marion: the tree you go. The more money you earn. Therefore, the easier access to having childcare and all the other things that make your life having 4 kids a lot easier to manage so you can run your multi-million dollar company right? And and
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Marion: it's everyone else who gets forgotten about. And it's those who don't have the resources or the bandwidth, or the family support that are the ones that are struggling. And ultimately these are the people that are making you your money. These are the people that are producing for you.
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Marion: So yeah, there's a whole
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Marion: proximity, you know. The further away you get or the further up the tree you go. The more money you make, the further away you get from the reality of what everyone else is dealing with day on day. So how do we help our leaders. Remember that
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Marion: because I think that's the humbling moment, isn't it?
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Danny Gluch: I mean, a lot of them don't remember because they never experienced it. Let's be honest most Ceos
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Danny Gluch: don't come from average backgrounds. They didn't go through the average struggle and start off as an entry level and then work their way up to a junior level. And then a manager, and then senior manager, and and then ended up somehow, being CEO and then have kids. During that time they didn't do that.
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Danny Gluch: you know. They they went to Penn, and then went to Harvard, Mba. And then, you know, then their CEO, after consulting for a few years, and their partner probably got to stay at home for a little bit while they had their 4 kids, and now their Nanny's there to help out like it's that distance from the average experience is the problem.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And there needs to be education of what it's like to actually live on the salaries they're paying while trying to have kids and to do school drop offs school pickups.
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Danny Gluch: I, Ashley, this is going to be horrifying. Did you know the kindergarten schedule of like? Drop them off at 8 30 and pick them up at 1130. That's their whole school day.
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Ashley Kera: And it. This is conducive to yeah working. And yeah.
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Danny Gluch: How are you supposed to work 8 h as flexible as you want, even if you're like, oh, yeah, you know. Go pick them up. Go drop them off. You get 2 and a half hours tops to work
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Danny Gluch: without kids bothering you like. That's kindergarten. Kindergartners are like 5, 6 years old. This isn't just for newborns like it is brutal.
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Danny Gluch: and and leadership just doesn't want to acknowledge that they're not paying enough for one parent to work for a year, and the other parent to take the year off and be the primary caregiver. They're not paying that much. They're not paying enough for for nannies like?
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Danny Gluch: Are they expecting all of our parents and grandparents and uncles and aunts to be able to help us out because society is not formed like that anymore?
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Ashley Kera: No. And do they care? Do they actually care? That's like another thing, like, apart from once they have the educate? Do they actually care.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And I think that's that's a big part of it. Is education. Getting them to care is a big part of it.
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Danny Gluch: And and what you were saying earlier. If they cared.
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Danny Gluch: and and they did this for their workers, what they would see is their workers shifting from this like, I don't trust my company. I don't want to be here. I'm just trying to get the value I can to
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Danny Gluch: wow. This company adds to my life. They allow me to live this kind of lifestyle that I like, where I get to spend time with my kids, and I get to care about what I do. And I'm making an impact. Even if we're not doing some like amazing, whatever product they get to make an impact on their team. And people find value in that. But instead, it's it's this. Oh, if you're not here with your team you're taking from the company, and
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Danny Gluch: I don't think it has to be like that. But you know
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Danny Gluch: I'm a philosopher, not a business, Major.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, and it all comes down to the trust at the end of the day. That's like it all like, if you were to whittle it down to what you were saying, Danny, because if
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Cacha Dora: the business trusted the employee to use their time
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Cacha Dora: to go pick up the kids to take them back
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Cacha Dora: and be like, Okay, you're not gonna be here during this period. You're not gonna be here when you've got a doctor's appointment, whatever the case may be, but I know the value and the caliber of your work, so let me know when that is, as long as you can make it for this meeting and this meeting, because these are like our business criticals. Please work around those if you can. That's what we need.
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Cacha Dora: And and it goes back to the flexibility that Marion and Ashley were talking about. Right like. If you can make the adjustments and have these things happen.
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Cacha Dora: then we will make things happen for you.
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Cacha Dora: and you know happy people are pretty productive.
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Cacha Dora: and when they're productive they make you money.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, but the power is on the side of the business, so they have to take the 1st step.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think, Ashley, you were asking a question earlier about like, what do we think
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Cacha Dora: around these things and and change? And the thing that I was thinking about was actually something that I think, Danny, you were mentioning
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Cacha Dora: a little while ago in our conversation was that there's a lot of people in business who haven't gone through
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Cacha Dora: the experience of having children or trying to have children or losing children.
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Cacha Dora: And when you don't have experience to inform you.
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Cacha Dora: It makes it very hard to create policies, to protect people
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Cacha Dora: and to advocate for people. And I'm not using that as an excuse to say like why things are so shitty, but I think that there are a lot of people who are in roles who don't understand.
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Cacha Dora: and when you compound that with the lack of trust and the lack of psychological safety, I think that we find ourselves where we're at, where it's not just one factor. It's all of these things amalgamating into something that's a bigger beast like we've talked about 3 separate things in this conversation that would be need a whole other conversation just to tackle, because they're so intense.
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Cacha Dora: But I think, Ashley, to your question, I think it's a combination of people who have
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Cacha Dora: a lack of experience, a potential lack of empathy, a lack of systemic support to be able to create lasting change and a lack of buy-in. I think it's I think it's a huge system systemic aspect of lack.
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Ashley Kera: Sure.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: But to concretely answer your question. Going on what Kashu was saying, we need really, really concrete deliverables
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Danny Gluch: paying me to deliver this. This is what I'm going to do. This is the cadence, and whatever the timeframe that I'm going to do it, you can trust that if I'm ever not doing that. Let me know. This is the quality of that, too. You can have all of those conversations, but this is what I'm here to deliver at this quality at this time.
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Marion: Yeah, it's not about having my bum on a seat for 8 HA day I can
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Marion: my bum on a seat for 8 HA day. And do you know nothing right?
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Danny Gluch: Way worse. I'm way, less productive when I'm just in my chair all the time.
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Marion: Exactly exactly but we have again an inherent and systemic issue with that, because many
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Marion: business leaders don't trust it. I mean Jp. Morgan. Jamie
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Marion: Demon lately is just an absolute, you know. Stand up! Display of that, you know. I don't care how many fucking people sign that petition.
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Marion: You're not working from home right like. And I think that when we see these behaviors out loud and proud, it's now emboldening, emboldening other business leaders to behave in the same way. And so everything that we're we're trying to do to encourage psychological safety and build, trust and help. People have flexible schedules.
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Marion: We're just 1 18 away from. And again, who are the people making these decisions, the ones that can afford the nannies and the private jets and all the other things.
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Marion: so I don't know something.
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Marion: Something cataclysmic has to happen here. There has to be a really significant thing
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Marion: to make the shift. But then we thought that with Covid right, we thought that Covid, and being in lockdown was the thing that was going to normalize remote, hybrid, flexible working. And it did for a minute.
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Marion: And no, it's not.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, now, there's the definitely the demand for in person, which kind of like.
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Ashley Kera: listen, I like in person. I understand I recognize the value of companies to be, they just need to be more transparent in general, like, if this isn't, I work for an organization and what they say. This isn't a lifestyle firm. Okay? You said that upfront like in the interview process, like noted. Thank you for being transparent. But
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Ashley Kera: it's kind of absurd with technology, if you want like, how are companies really measuring productivity? It's the time spent rather than the deliverables, too, and the results earned like it just seems like we're backtracking, which makes no sense at all. And then, like, think about how much time is spent like wasted meetings when it could be a simple slack, all of that. But
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Ashley Kera: I think we also need more
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Ashley Kera: advocates in leadership to say like, Listen, you know, I'm a parent, too, and I see firsthand like this shouldn't be a count against you. We need more conducive policies, and the people who can afford all this great to them. But guess what they're missing time with their child.
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Marion: And that they can never get back.
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Danny Gluch: Never will.
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Cacha Dora: Nope.
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Marion: But then that psychological safety isn't there to advocate for themselves or for others?
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Marion: So what do you? What what do we do as humans. When we don't feel safe, we do nothing.
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Marion: That's human nature. That's not to anyone's fault or detriment. That's just that's just a fact of life.
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Marion: And
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Marion: So yeah, there's a a really deep, ingrained systemic issue that it's going to take something very radical
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Marion: to change.
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Marion: I just don't know what that is.
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Marion: but I don't think that that means that we
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Marion: stop fighting or we give up. We have to
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Marion: push. We have to continue to challenge.
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Marion: But I think collectively. We're tired. We're tired from the pandemic we're tired of. We're tired from fighting. We're tired from, you know, everything that's happening around us politically, economically.
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Marion: socially.
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Marion: And I think that what we're seeing is a lot of people just go fuck it.
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Marion: I can't fight today. I'm tired.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. But we need leaders like you said to to step up and say, Wow.
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Danny Gluch: this could be a lot better.
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Danny Gluch: I'm not, you know my one leadership decision for my company of you know, 300 500 people isn't going to affect the change that we're talking about here, but it is for my 500 people.
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Danny Gluch: and that's what matters. And that's what people need to do.
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Marion: Yeah, what can I change?
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Danny Gluch: And they need to do it, not so that they can write a book or get famous on Twitter or whatever, because those people always end up being toxic. They need to do it for the 500 people.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. Cause. Like, I think, Ashley said it beautifully at the very beginning, right? We're all in a human experience. We're all humans. We're all people like
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Cacha Dora: like that. That's a very
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Cacha Dora: diverse and ebbing and flowing experience. And you got your peaks and your valleys, and what better way to do it within an organization and a support system.
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Danny Gluch: And if not.
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Danny Gluch: if if people stopped having kids because they didn't feel supported and capable of doing it economically, everyone would freak the F out, too, right? Because, oh, my God, the birth rate's going down. Where are workers going to be? Where are consumers going to be? You know what maybe make it easier for us to have kids and take care of them, and also contribute to society. That might be nice. Maybe.
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Marion: Yeah, right?
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Marion: Yeah, I'm not a fan of the term servant leadership. I think servant just brings up a lot of really negative connotations. But the premise of it
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Marion: is about taking care of others right and supporting others, and that I think we need to see more of, and not just in a
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Marion: performative. Oh, look at! Look at us! We've got, you know.
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Marion: fertility benefits, you know, as part of our benefits. Package? Well, that's great. Thank you for that. But do you
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Marion: give me the space to have the flexibility I need? Once I have said, child
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Marion: you know, does that exist? Or is it just a performative tick box action, you know.
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Marion: I think that a lot of these things are come from a good place.
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Marion: but they're not really thought through.
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Marion: And and when the output of that action happens, are we really helping that that employee bring their entire self
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Marion: to work?
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Marion: Yeah.
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Ashley Kera: And a lot of organizations don't think through things like retention that doesn't start once they give notice that starts really at the onboarding process when they're new hires, but invest in them, people have more options than ever. So I remember when I started out in my career.
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Ashley Kera: if you weren't in a job, for, like, you know, you weren't jobs for years sometimes like your entire career. That's not the case. Now. It's like, wait a second. You spent 7 years at a company. Why would you do that that sort of thing? But imagine if companies really nurtured the people and like again the whole person and think about it, and also break down the numbers like, do the analysis. You'll see that if you
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Ashley Kera: I actually supported the people, and this isn't becoming soft like, quote unquote, soft, or whatever, or letting like employees get whatever they want.
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Ashley Kera: It's actually going to really benefit your business, like financially and in terms of the reputation like that's another thing. In this age of like social media.
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Ashley Kera: tread carefully, especially when it becomes like an employee's market again, and a job seekers tread carefully about how you, you treat your people too.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, reputation matters, and it matters all the time, not just when it's in the, you know
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Danny Gluch: employees market. It's it always matters because you can't just flip a switch and be like, Oh, we're the good guys. Now.
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Danny Gluch: People remember, people will always remember.
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Marion: Well, I think it'll be very interesting. Whenever there's data around
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Marion: all of the people that were laid off recently Federal Government employees.
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Marion: How will we vote next time, I wonder? Hmm!
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Danny Gluch: Be interesting before we wrap. I wanted
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Danny Gluch: you know I didn't prep you on this, so be willing to, you know. Bounce this and take it, however you want, but I wanted your advice for young families who are looking to start
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Danny Gluch: a family.
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Danny Gluch: So a couple looking to start a family in the business world. Now, what are some tips?
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Danny Gluch: Should they? Should they build their career first, st and then look to have kids? Should they look for certain things in certain firms to work for? Should you know how? How can they get support? What should they do?
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Ashley Kera: Yeah, that's a good question. It's also a loaded question, because there isn't a 1. Size fits all, I think. And I think younger professionals are thinking about this more proactively.
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Ashley Kera: What sort of lifestyle do I want? Do I think I want to have kids? What does that mean? So maybe. Are you going to pursue a career that like they expect you to like live in an office? Maybe it's not a fit. But what kind of organization. Do you want to work for
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Ashley Kera: around? When do you think you want to have kids? Also a tip for women and men? You can actually get your fertility assessed, too, in advance, so you can then choose. Do you want to freeze your eggs? Do you want to do any of that? But you can like go to a doctor. You can get blood work, you can get examinations, and they can tell you, because, increasingly like one in 6 couples struggle globally with like infertility.
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Ashley Kera: Increasingly, though people because of things like, you know, pcos endometriosis diminished ovarian reserve and then mend the sperm count that's going down. And also the morphology of it.
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Ashley Kera: Be educated. So know 1st about your anatomy. Put yourself first.st There will always be more work, but unfortunately the clock is ticking. If you want to have kids, and there are options like Ivf again, if you want to freeze your eggs or go through that. But just know that. So you have options and think longer. Term as well about your career and things change. It's life. Things will change and be willing to pivot, but tentatively.
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Ashley Kera: What options can you create for yourself? How can you be strategic? So you say you want to get pregnant. But your job searching, you're going to want to be there at least a year to qualify for Fmla. Also look into the size of the company. If you're at like a 12 person startup, you're not going to be eligible for that, but
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Ashley Kera: that can help with family planning, but get very real with yourself, like even my husband and I. We spoke about like holding off on having kids. But then we were like you could hold off forever. Your career will change. So
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Ashley Kera: once you do find an organization to know what front before you sign that offer. What are their policies? What is the culture really like? Can you see yourself having kids here? So it's not a 1. Size fits all, but the
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Ashley Kera: greatest tip I can give is just educate yourself and be as strategic as possible. But remember, like, I always think about this because I did lose my father, and I asked him before he passed away, what are your greatest regrets? One of it was working too much and not spending enough time with family.
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Ashley Kera: We don't have to do that these days. We have options for flexibility to be there with our families, too. So remember, like to put your life first.st There can always be another organization. And I career is so so important to me. But I wasn't going to pass on having children, that's for sure. And my own family.
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Ashley Kera: so those are my tips. I also want to separately mention more organizations need to do training and education for managers like, how do they handle one in 4 pregnancies and in miscarriages?
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Ashley Kera: A lot of people don't know how to handle that. They don't have policies to support it, but even the managers they don't know what to say. I remember a colleague of mine had a miscarriage, she told the mail manager, and he was like a deer in headlights. He was like, like, What do I say? He's like, I'm sorry.
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Ashley Kera: But that was it.
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Ashley Kera: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Well, that's amazing advice. I really think
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Danny Gluch: hopefully, you know, that word gets out to some young people who are are having those decisions right now, because if they thought if they're thoughtful, they can choose the right industry, the right firm, the right time for them. And and I love that. So thank you so much for that wisdom.
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Ashley Kera: Thank you.
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Danny Gluch: Any last thoughts, Kasha, Mary, and Ashley, before we sign off to our wonderful listeners.
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Marion: No, but I'm just super grateful for Ashley's vulnerability, and you know openness to share with us. And such a emotive and difficult topic. I think it's always been a hard one, I think, is compounded again by our external environment more than ever right now I think there's a lot of people that need
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Marion: people like Ashley speaking up and shaden that experiences to to have.
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Marion: There's still faith in humanity out there, and people are still trying to do the right thing, and they're not alone.
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Cacha Dora: And I think
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Cacha Dora: just kind of going back to what Ashley had talked about earlier. And I think if there's anything to take away, there's a lot of things to take away, but like the path to parenthood is not the same for everyone, and there's no shame in that, and I think that is a huge lesson for people because
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Cacha Dora: of all the expectations we put on ourselves. Remove society. We all have our own expectations, and I think getting to hear Ashley your experience and knowing the experiences of so many women in my life alone. And even the people just in this call today. You know, I I think it's really important that we do. We do share our stories because it helps others advocate for themselves. And I think, I think this is a really great conversation to have, and so important. So thank you so much. Ashley.
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Ashley Kera: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And I just want to reiterate there's a lot of support out there, and we need to lift each other up. I'm part of some communities like society of working moms. They're fantastic. And that's not just for like current moms, that's aspiring moms as well. But
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Ashley Kera: reach out. There's a lot of support outside of the workplace, too. And I'm always happy to support people if I can. Linkedin Ashley. Kara, that's probably like the best way to reach me. But I I just really believe in paying it forward, and that
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Ashley Kera: this needs to be discussed increasingly more because it's just so.
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Ashley Kera: It's so beautiful.
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Ashley Kera: And I think that
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Ashley Kera: too many cons are are associated now with like wanting to become a parent, and also advancing your career, and that just shouldn't be the case.
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Danny Gluch: It, really.
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Danny Gluch: And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people wanting to reach out to you and ask questions. Everyone she is about to have a child. So keep that in mind, please. As she said, she would love to reach out and support. There also might be people who want to reach out and just give you words of encouragement and support. I'm sure Ashley would love that. But just please keep in mind that she is about to have a child.
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Danny Gluch: That being said, do you find her? Linkedin?
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Danny Gluch: connection, link, website thing in the show notes, as you can also find the fearless Px and all of ours in the show notes. Thank you all for listening. Be sure to like subscribe. Leave a 5 star review. We'll see you next time.
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Ashley Kera: Thank you so much.
