The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
When the Mask Drops: Why Leadership’s Strongest Often Suffer in Silence with Nicole DuBois
What happens when the one holding it all together starts to fall apart?
In this powerful episode, we’re joined by Nicole DuBois—HR exec, mom, author, and walking proof that vulnerability is leadership. Nicole takes us behind the scenes of her journey: managing a chronic illness, surviving divorce, raising a child, and leading a people function—all while hiding behind a mask.
We talk about why HR is often the least psychologically safe team in the org, how culture and identity shape what we’re allowed to show at work, and what happens when a leader finally says: “This is me.”
Whether you’re burnt out, breaking down, or just tired of pretending, this episode will hit deep.
🎭 The cost of masking in senior leadership
📚 Nicole’s journey from pseudonym to public truth
🧠 Chronic illness, identity, and workplace culture
🫶 Co-creation, compassion, and redefining strength
Connect with Nicole:
📖 Unparalyzed: Beating an Invisible Pre-Midlife Crisis – available via Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Archway Publishing
🔗 Nicole on LinkedIn
🎧 Subscribe, share, and leave a review if this one moved you.
Let’s make work suck less. 🐘
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📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
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Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
Welcome to the Elephant New York presented by the Fearless People Experience. Do you know those things in the workplace that make work suck but remain unchanged? Well, those are the elephants we're here to talk about. We believe that these topics can and should be addressed with common sense, courage and compassion. We may not have all the answers and we're definitely not always going to be right, but we're here to build a better people experience.
Speaker 2:We've got to start somewhere. Let's go.
Speaker 3:We've all been there. First you go through some difficult times. Then you try to share your story to help others, but are you allowed to be that vulnerable and honest if you're an HR professional? I'm Danny Glutch, and today, on the Elephant and the Org, I'm joined by my co-hosts, marian Anderson and Kasha Dora, and today we're sitting down with Nicole Dubois, Chief Human Resources Officer, world traveler, who's been voted a top 100 HR professional and memoirist who used to keep her personal story separate from her professional life until she didn't. We talk about unseen pressures, vulnerability, the myth of the perfect professional and what happens when an HR exec finally decides to show up. No filter, no fake smiles, no pseudonym. This one's for anyone who's ever felt like they needed to maintain split personalities. Let's go. Welcome back to the Elephant in the Org everyone. I'm Danny Glutch and I'm joined by my co-host, marian Anderson.
Speaker 4:What Me?
Speaker 3:first Wow, oh my goodness, you were on my left it habit.
Speaker 4:I'm so sorry I'm number one, hi everyone secretly.
Speaker 3:These have always been. Uh stack ranked um introduction. I'm not gonna take that personally, it's fine, it's fine and also kasha, and also Kasha Dora.
Speaker 4:Hi, she didn't sing. Well, no, of course not. I'm not number one, so I don't know what to do, so I had to do something different, demote.
Speaker 3:And we have another lovely guest. We are joined by Nicole Dubois.
Speaker 2:Nicole, why don't you introduce yourself? Sure? Thank you so much, dani. And thank you Danny, marion and Kasia for having me. I am so excited to be here. My name again is Nicole Dubois. Thank you for pronouncing that correctly. It gets all kinds of pronunciations.
Speaker 3:You know, four years of French pay off eventually.
Speaker 2:And I am, in my day life, chief Human Resources Officer for Graham Windham, a child, family and community serving organization in New York City. I am also an author, a mom, a wife and, like I say, a Jersey person who I've determined you can never take the new york out of, so love that absolutely, and your authoring is one of the reasons why I wanted to, or I was so excited.
Speaker 3:It's not like I sought you out, our actual uh, friend of the pod. I love saying that adam weber introduced us thinking that you would have a great story to tell. And boy, boy, when I heard it.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Adam.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yay, hi Adam, we love him too.
Speaker 3:So you wrote a memoir. Tell me about and tell all our listeners about this memoir you wrote and this dilemma that you found yourself in and why that has to do with our elephant in the orc today, which is being authentic as an HR executive and leader.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so, thank you. So I was. I'm 36 years old. I was, you know, in this executive HR role and behind all of that right sort of the facade, the mask that I felt like I had to wear and show up with every day, because you know you're HR, you got to be uber professional, right, you know, we're managing policy procedures, making sure that the organization is on the up and up, all of that, behind all of that, there were a number of things that I was actually going through personally.
Speaker 2:There were a number of things that I was actually going through personally. So one was that I started to have like, weird symptoms, that physical symptoms that I couldn't really figure out. You know exactly what it was connected to. There was, I lost sensation in my fingertips and in different parts of my body and I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck is this? And so, you know, I was going and being examined by neurologists and ultimately learned, at you know that age, that I had multiple sclerosis, right so, which is a chronic illness. It's an autoimmune illness and you know it shows up in myriad ways. Right, there's a range I've seen, you know, expressions of MS that are very extreme cases where, you know, folks lose their ability to be mobile or vision or what have you and I've also seen like other parts of MS right. So I was going through that.
Speaker 2:I also, at that point, was going through a divorce after a 17-year-long relationship. We were married for just over 12 years and at the time, I had a five-year-old right. So all of this is going on while, again, every morning, I'm waking up and I'm showing up for work. Every day, every morning, I'm waking up and I'm showing up, you know, for work. And it was a really challenging time and I decided I had an iPad right, like one of those big ones, 12.9 inches, with a keyboard that goes with it, and I found myself like escaping to the local Starbucks every Saturday and I just started pounding on this keyboard because that was like my way of dealing, and I just started writing. I didn't know where it was going, but I started to write my story and I continued to write. I traveled. I actually took a solo trip to Greece where I took two weeks and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I aligned myself with some great editors and so on until ultimately, I made the decision to publish the book.
Speaker 2:Now, last January I published a book and a few weeks prior to that I went through this internal turmoil almost because I was actually initially going to publish the book under my real name, and at the final hour, in working with the publishing company that was supporting me with going live with the book, I made the decision at the final hour to publish Under a Suiting Room, and I think that a part of what was going on for me was that I'm like, oh my gosh, I am this, you know, professional.
Speaker 2:I have a team, I'm, you know, in the senior role. I report to the CEO, I work with the board of directors, I'm not sure. Even though this, this, this book is, is is. It reflects a story that I felt you, I felt I wish I had available to me when I was going through it, and I think it's a story that could be so powerful and hopefully inspirational to others that are similarly situated. But I just wasn't sure that I was ready to be that raw and to expose myself that much, and so the pseudonym, I think, was a part of my process and people ask me well, how did you come up with this pseudonym?
Speaker 2:Danielle M Bryan, and I have a story around that. Actually, my mom almost named me Danielle until a nurse in the hospital was like, well, I think I'm going to name my dog Danielle. And then my mom was like that's probably not a good idea. I probably don't want to name my daughter Danielle. So that's how we got that. The M is the initial of my real middle name, which is Marie, and Brian is my mom's maiden name. So I did that. That was January.
Speaker 2:Then, as I was telling Danny about like I'm in a different conversation later in the year, uh, I went to my first book expo. I had like, uh, that's my book cover blown up. I had custom tablecloth these swanky I think they're swanky anyway leather custom oh, those are swanky, I thought. So I was feeling good feeling myself, and people are coming up to my table and they're asking me about the book, and then I had this moment of like awkwardness. So I'm like, well, hi, I'm Nicole and, yeah, this is my book, but, as you can see, it's a different name and I'm having to like over-explain. So what happened is there was a speaker at the event, there were about 45 authors in the room and the speaker is a professional in marketing and branding, but also happens to be a council person in my town, and she was speaking about branding and so she asked the question of the authors in the room how do you go about marketing your brand? And so I raised my hand, grabbed the mic right and I'm like well, I'm an executive and I wrote this book, and so I actually have to have two social media accounts. Executive and I wrote this book, and so I actually have to have two social media accounts. I have a growing following and network on LinkedIn, but I can't really use that network and so I have a separate IG, instagram account or whatever for the book.
Speaker 2:And she said listen, I know exactly what you're saying, I get it. You're a professional and you have all these different things that have happened to you. She said but I need you to hear something from me. She said you can only be one person. And she said that everything that has happened to you, all of your experiences, who you are in your day life, they are all you. They are all you are in your day life. They are all you. They are all you. And anybody that has an issue with any aspect of who you are or what has caused you to be who you are. The issue is their problem. And I tell you that in that moment, my voice is cracking a little bit right now, because I'm like this. I tend to be like if my mom were listening and she's probably going to listen at some point she'd be like she never cries, she's always serious and stoic and standoffish. I was bawling. Okay, I was bawling, I felt like it hit you at your core.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because she was absolutely right, and so I decided from that moment I went and told my boss about it and we had a great conversation, and then I slowly started to feel comfortable enough to identify myself as the real person behind the story.
Speaker 1:That is so powerful.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so many things that I'm thinking and feeling and want to say, but, like, one of the biggest things I think is just around how that emphasises how much we mask in our profession and we carry so much and we are the landfill for so many things, for so many people, for so much, and we we just take so much on and we don't have that many outlets. And so I'm making an assumption that this outlet for you was so therapeutic, based on what you've said, and was such a release and a way to manage that, and yet look how much extra you had to go to then be able to claim that and to admit that this beautiful piece of art, this piece of work that you put your heart and soul into, was yours and not from this other entity. And that's huge, it really is.
Speaker 3:It really is massive yeah, it was almost like you were having to have like a, a coming out moment, like coming out of the closet of of even just being a human, like those are. You know it's hard to have those happen simultaneously. Um, and obviously, ms is, you know, uh, a lot more than a lot of people are going to deal with it at this age in life, but it's part of the human experience and you know, so was relationships and marriage and divorce and all that. And yet there's still this pressure and I'm wondering, you know I've mentioned a few times it's sort of like internalized panopticon, the idea that we internalize all of these social rules, and but there's also this very real external pressure. Where do we think this pressure to be, like, so buttoned up and so professional? Well, where's that legacy coming from? And still, like speaking the loudest.
Speaker 1:Well my gut instinct is like the patriarchy, um, but that's because I'm feeling spicy on a Friday, uh, but also, you know, I think I do think that there is a certain amount of social, um sub sub context to being perfect and presenting as, uh, not being affected, right, being unaffected even though life is hard, and then we enter a field where that's also a benefit, right, that's something that is lauded, to be able to be that way. And it's very hard to have the duality of life, because I think, danny, you said it right like we're living a human experience and it's like hard to talk about your health issues that are going on, that are affecting you at work, or how relationships affect you at work, because you can't. That, what's that's always? Like, you know, oh, leave it at the door and we're human, like there's, you can do that, maybe like one day a week if you're lucky, um, you know, because at some point it's going to move its way through. And so how do you move beyond presentation? And you have to invite it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean a hundred percent. I think I add to that, you know, cause I've now you know, my family members and everything have read the book. My mom is hilarious Book has like 26 chapters. There's one chapter about her and she insists the entire book is about her. You know, because it's all about her. She's a funny person Hi.
Speaker 3:Nicole's mom.
Speaker 4:You want to come on a podcast?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh.
Speaker 4:Teen mom over here.
Speaker 2:That's the thing, that's that's why, I'm like oi, oi, oi, she would love that, but she um, the the. The other piece that, um, I think about a lot too, is there's a certain aspect of about this that affects, if I honest, women in a particular way and people of color in a particular way, or others, or all the intersectionalities that you can name right.
Speaker 2:And so literally in my own family and this was something that we were even just talking about recently my family's Jamaican, both sides, or whatever sort of Caribbean whatever and it's like in my family you just do not tell your business to other people, like you keep it close to the best right. And so there was that aspect, in addition to just being like whatever. I thought I needed to be as an HR executive, but I'm also just a person who grew up, you know, in a cultural context where you literally just you know, no, maybe you tell your, your, your people close to you, but you do not go. And so writing the book was like a whole, and then going live with it was like a whole exercise. Just even around that I had to like tiptoe right. First I had like this readers group, I didn't tell anybody in my family. Then I had my cousin read it, Then I was like, okay, what do you think? And then I was able to go a little bit further. So there's that as well.
Speaker 4:I think the whole thing around masking especially in senior people leadership roles so hard because we don't live our lives in boxes, we aren't compartmentalised what happens outside of work will always impact us inside of work. But I think as senior leaders and people, we have this additional unspoken pressure to always be the composed one in the room, to always be the one that's got their shit together. And the other thing about that is the further up the tree you go, the lonelier it gets and you have no one. Unless you've obviously got other CPOs, chros in your immediate network that you can hold into, you don't have anyone.
Speaker 2:And you're carrying all of this. Who does HR go to when HR needs HR?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:No one, that's it. We suck it up, buttercup.
Speaker 3:We get on podcasts. That's right. What are you talking about?
Speaker 4:Exactly cut up buttercup. We get on podcast. That's what you're talking about. Exactly. We do and, and and I identify a lot with what you're saying, not because I have a I do have a disability, but I was also a carer for a long time for my dad who had dementia and he was diagnosed when I was 17.
Speaker 4:He died almost 20 years later and that entire time, pretty much, I was his guardian and he was the love of my life, right, but I was falling apart during all of that and I, even if you go back like 15 years, it wasn't acceptable to fall apart at work, right, yeah, so like, yeah, like, we mask so hard and I think that, um one, I'm really a huge fan of what you've done and what you're doing and really applaud it. I think that it's such an important message for other practitioners to see that it's okay, we are human, shit happens, and we are just like anyone else that needs an outlet and needs an ability to to garner support, right, um, but, yeah, the masking piece is exhausting and and how have you kind of navigated that beyond now that you've kind of come away from that, that side of it?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, it's. It's a good question. I actually was just having a conversation with members of my team about something related just yesterday, as a matter of fact, and I think I want to say that I recognize that every professional is in a different level of psychological safety, depending on myriad factors how long they've been with an organization, where they are in an organization. I have a hard time believing that even me, when I was initially diagnosed in 2016, that I would have felt safe enough or comfortable enough to actually share my story with with anybody, right, um, even though there were times where I had relapses and I'd be away like on lead for like a month, you know, because I was hospitalized and you know and and all that right, but I don't think I like I felt like maybe I'm not sure if I felt like I was stable enough or comfortable enough or safe enough.
Speaker 2:Like what if like, what are people going to think and is my job going to be in jeopardy, and all these different things.
Speaker 2:So I do want to say that I appreciate that that can be the case and I realized that at this stage of my career, and where I am, that, that in my, in my career as an HR executive at a place where I've been for almost 20 years, that I feel a certain level of comfort that not everybody might right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have accepted it as my responsibility then to be vulnerable and to actually practice like being my real self, to hopefully make it just a little bit more comfortable for others that I interact with. And you know I'm not saying that like I'm. You know I don't believe I'm a superstar around this or anything like that. The reason, one of the other reasons, in addition to that book expo experience that I felt so I'm feeling more comfortable, you know, having conversations like this, is because, literally, I have a colleague who I adore and is in the HR space also and does lots of talking and at one point went on a social media platform and posted a picture of themselves, of herself, and said this is a picture of someone with bipolar, and I mean the response was viral People appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to the Elephant in the Org everyone. I'm Danny Glutch and I'm joined by my co-host, marian Anderson.
Speaker 4:What Me?
Speaker 3:first. Wow, oh my goodness, you were on my left. It's habit. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4:I'm number one, Hi everyone.
Speaker 3:Secretly. These have always been stack ranked.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm not going to take that personally. It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 3:And also Koshadora Hi.
Speaker 1:She didn't sing. Well, of course not.
Speaker 4:I'm not number one, so I don't know what to do, so I had to do something different.
Speaker 3:Emoti oh, and we have another lovely guest. We are joined by nicole dubois. Nicole, why don't you introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:sure. Thank you so much, so much, danny. And thank you Danny, marion and Kasia for having me. I am so excited to be here. My name again is Nicole Dubois. Thank you for pronouncing that correctly. It gets all kinds of pronunciations.
Speaker 3:You know, four years of French pay off eventually.
Speaker 2:And I am, in my day life, chief Human Resources Officer for Graham Wyndham, a child, family and community serving organization in New York City. I am also an author, a mom, a wife and, like I say, a Jersey person who I've determined you can never take the New York Adam, so love that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and your authoring is one of the reasons why I wanted to, or I was so excited. It's not like I sought you out, our actual friend of the pod. I love saying that Adam Weber introduced us thinking that you would have a great story to tell. And boy, when I heard it.
Speaker 2:Shout out to Adam.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yay, hi Adam, we love him too.
Speaker 3:So you wrote a memoir. Tell me about and tell all our listeners about this memoir you wrote and this dilemma that you found yourself in and why that has to do with our elephant in the org today, which is being authentic as an HR executive and leader.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so, thank you. So I was 36 years old, I was in this executive HR role and behind all of that sort of the facade, the mask that I felt like I had to wear and show up with every day, because you know we're HR, you got to be uber professional, right? You know we're managing policy procedures, making sure that the organization is on the up and up, all of that, behind all of that there were a number of things that I was actually going through personally. All of that, there were a number of things that I was actually going through personally. So one was that I started to have like weird symptoms, that physical symptoms that I couldn't really figure out. You know exactly what it was connected to. There was, I lost sensation in my fingertips and in different parts of my body and I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck is this different parts of my body? And I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck is this? And so, you know, I was going and being examined by neurologists and ultimately learned, at you know that age, that I had multiple sclerosis, right so, which is a chronic illness. It's an autoimmune illness and you know it shows up in myriad ways, right, there's a range I've seen, you know, expressions of MS that are very extreme cases where you know folks lose their ability to be mobile or vision or what have you and I've also seen like other parts of MS right. So I was going through that.
Speaker 2:I also, at that point, was going through a divorce after a 17 year long relationship. We were married for just over 12 years and at the time I had a five year old Right. Well, again, every morning I'm waking up and I'm showing up, you know, for work, and it was a really challenging time and I decided I had an iPad right, like one of those big ones, 12.9 inches, with a keyboard that goes with it, and I found myself like escaping to the local Starbucks every Saturday and I just started pounding on this keyboard because that was my way of dealing, and I just started writing. I didn't know where it was going, but I started to write my story and I continued to write, I traveled. I actually took a solo trip to Greece where I took two weeks and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I aligned myself with some great editors and so on, until ultimately, I made the decision to publish the book.
Speaker 2:Now, last January, I published a book and a few weeks prior to that I went through this internal turmoil almost because I was actually initially going to publish the book under my real name and at the final hour, in working with the publishing company that was supporting me with going live with the book, I made the decision at the final hour to publish under a pseudonym, and I think that a part of what was going on for me was that I'm like, oh my gosh, I am this professional, I have a team, I'm in the senior role, I report to the CEO, I work with the board of directors, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Even though this book is, it reflects a story that I felt, you know, I wish I had available to me when I was kind of going through it, you know, and I think it's a story that could be so powerful and hopefully inspirational to others that are similarly situated, but I just wasn't sure that I was ready to, you know, be that raw and to expose myself that much, and so the pseudonym, I think, was a part of my process and people ask me well, how did you come up with this pseudonym, danielle M Bryan?
Speaker 2:And I have a story around that. Actually, my mom almost named me Danielle until a nurse in the hospital was like well, I think I'm going to name my dog Danielle. And then my mom was like that's probably not a good idea, idea, I probably don't want to name my daughter Danielle. So that's how we got that. The M is the initial of my real middle name, which is Marie, and Brian is my mom's maiden name. So I did that. That was January. Then, as I was telling Danny about like I'm in a different conversation later in the year I went to my first book expo. I had like that's my book cover blown up. I had like custom table cloth you know these swanky I think they're swanky anyway leather custom.
Speaker 3:Oh those are swanky.
Speaker 2:I thought so, right, I was feeling good, feeling myself, and people are coming up to my table and they're asking me about the book. And then I had this moment of like awkwardness. So I'm like, well, hi, I'm Nicole and, yeah, this is my book, but, as you can see, it's a different name and I'm having to like over explain. So what happened is there was a speaker at the event, there were about 45 authors in the room, and the speaker is a professional in marketing and branding but also happens to be a council person in my town, and she was speaking about branding, and so she asked the question of the authors in the room how do you go about marketing your brand? And so I raised my hand, grabbed the mic, right, and I'm like, well, I'm an executive and I wrote this book, and so I actually have to have two social media accounts. You know, I have, like you know, a growing following and network on LinkedIn, but I can't really use that network and so I have like a separate, like IG, you know, instagram account or whatever for the book.
Speaker 2:And she said listen, I know exactly what you're saying. I get it right. You're a professional and you have all these different things that have happened to you. She said but I need you to hear something from me. She said you can only be one person and she said that everything that has happened to you, all of your experiences, who you are in your day life, they are all you. They are all you. And anybody that has an issue with any aspect of who you are or what has caused you to be who you are, the issue is their problem. And I tell you that in that moment, my voice is cracking a little bit right now, because I'm like this, I tend to be like if my mom were listening and she's probably going to listen at some point she'd be like she never cries.
Speaker 2:She's always like serious and stoic and standoffish. I was bawling, okay, I was bawling.
Speaker 1:I felt like you know it hit you at your core.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because she was absolutely right, and so I decided from that moment I went and told my boss about it and we had a great conversation and then I slowly started to feel comfortable enough to identify myself as the real person behind the story.
Speaker 4:That is so powerful yeah, I, oh, so many things I've been kind and feeling and want to say, but, like, one of the biggest things I think is just around how that emphasizes how much we mask in our profession and, um, we carry so much and we are the landfill for so many things, for so many people, for so much, and we we just take so much on and we don't have that many outlets. And so I'm making an assumption that this outlet for you was so therapeutic, based on what you've said and, and was such a release and a way to manage that. And yet look how much extra you had to go to then be able to claim that and to admit that this beautiful piece of art, this piece of work that you put your heart and soul into, was yours and not from this other entity. And that's huge. It really is. It really is massive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was almost like you were having to have like a coming out moment, like coming out of the closet of even just being a human, like those are. You know it's hard to have those happen simultaneously, and obviously MS is, you know, a lot more than a lot of people are going to deal with at this age in life, but it's part of the human experience, and so is relationships and marriage and divorce and all that. And yet there's still this pressure and I'm wondering. I've mentioned a few times this sort of like internalized panopticon, the idea that we internalize all of these social rules, and but there's also this very real external pressure. Where do we think this pressure to be, like so buttoned up and so professional? Where's that legacy coming from? And still, like speaking the loudest.
Speaker 1:Well my gut instinct is like the patriarchy, but that's because I'm feeling spicy on a Friday. But also I do think that there is a certain amount of social subcontext to being perfect and presenting as not being affected. Right, being unaffected even though life is hard. And then we enter a field where that's also a benefit, right, that's something that is lauded, to be able to be that way.
Speaker 1:And it's very hard to have the duality of life because I think, danny, you said it right like we're living a human experience and it's very hard to have the duality of life, cause I think, danny, you said it right Like we're living a human experience, and it's like hard to talk about your health issues that are going on, that are affecting you at work, or how relationships affect you at work, because you can't that. What's the? It's always like, you know, oh, leave it at the door and we're human, like there's. You can do that, maybe like one day a week if you're lucky, you know, because at some point it's going to move its way through, and so how do you move beyond presentation? And you have to invite it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean a hundred percent. I think I'd add to that, you know, cause I've now. You know, my family members and everything have read the book. My mom is hilarious. The book has like 26 chapters. There's one chapter about her and she insists the entire book is about her. You know, because it's all about her. She's a funny person Hi.
Speaker 3:Nicole's mom, hi.
Speaker 4:You want to come on a podcast?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, team mom over here, that the thing. That's. That's why I'm like oi, oi, oi. She would love that, but she um, the the. The other piece that, um, I think about a lot too, is there's a certain aspect of about this that affects if I I'm honest women in a particular way and people of color in a particular way, or others, or all the intersectionalities that you can name right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so literally in my own family and this was something that we were even just talking about recently my family's Jamaican, both sides, or whatever, so Caribbean, whatever and it's like in my family, you just do not tell your business to other people like you keep it close to the best right, and so there was that aspect, in addition to just being like whatever I thought I needed to be as an HR executive.
Speaker 2:But I'm also just a person who grew up, you know, in a cultural context where you literally just you know. No, maybe you tell your, your, your people close to you, but you do not go. And so writing the book was like a whole and then going live with it was like a whole exercise. Just even around that I had to like tiptoe right.
Speaker 2:First, I had like this readers group, I didn't tell anybody in my family. Then I had my cousin read it, then I was like okay, you know, what do you think? And then I was able to, you know, sort of go a little bit further. So there's that, you know as well. I did it so much and thanked her and said oh my gosh, thank you for sharing and being transparent and sharing and being vulnerable, right. And I said to myself but if she could do it, then maybe I could and and and, literally I've said this to her. And so then I, I, I thought to myself, what, if, just what, if I could be that for somebody else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that also so important because we all need an example, right Like and you see it, whether it's a representation, right Like, we all need some representation and it shows itself in so many different ways. Like what you were saying. It really connected with me because I remember being younger definitely not like as ensconced in the HR space as I am, but like finding out when I had cancer and not being able to talk about it with the people I worked with because I didn't. I was like going out for all these doctor's appointments and I was like faking it till you make it to a huge degree. And then, like I was showing a coworker something on my phone and I swiped too far on my photos and it was like a book at Barnes and Noble around like recipes for people with cancer and I straight up lied to her face, Not because I didn't trust her, but because I had no idea what to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the only thing I could think of to do, and even though I'm not a liar by any kind of default mechanism, it was a survival tactic that showed up.
Speaker 1:It wasn't a, it wasn't something where I was sitting there going, oh, I don't want, I don't want her to feel pity for me or I don't want this or I don't want that.
Speaker 1:And it took me like, and once I had a diagnosis I couldn't even say the word, I just was calling it like the C word, which may or may not mean that to other people, but in that point in time in my life, that's like all I could get out of my mouth, like I couldn't even like vocalize it, like it.
Speaker 1:And that's, I think, something that's so powerful, especially with something like like ms or cancer, anything that's really a disability in any um, eds, anything like that where you have to retake ownership of you, and because it's so easy to kind of like live the diagnosis and and if you're living the diagnosis, then like you kind of lose yourself along the way because you start identifying through that other lens but there's no, there is no like playbook to do when we have these like big experiences, and I think that's honestly why, when people do talk about it when that colleague of yours posted about being bipolar, I think even like your book alone like people resonate because they can be seen, even if it's a different diagnosis, because it's actually telling them that these things, as bad as they are, happen and that doesn't make you any more or less, it makes you you just a part of your tapestry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think such a cool part of your story is such a strategic, emotional decision, like a difficult decision to step out and say I am going to be authentic and you were sharing me in a previous conversation about how that decision to be authentic and to say this is who I am has that alone has been such a thing People are wanting and wanting to talk with you about. Could you share a little bit about maybe some common themes or questions that people who are just clamoring for this? You know authenticity in leadership. What are people looking for? Because I think you know we talk a lot about performativity on this podcast, because people are really used to fake performative. You know overly buttoned up nonsense and I think when people see your story and how you're like, you know what I was doing that and I'm choosing to be not that and I'm choosing to be vulnerable and authentic. What is it that makes that hit home so much for people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny that you asked that question, because it's like I'm having this conversation and I feel like I'm still going through a process, right, because literally I was interviewing on podcasts under my pseudonym. And then there was like this point in time, only a few months ago, when I did the first interview and I was like, nah, I'm pulling down the pseudonym. And even the interviewer was like, wow, my goodness, now you're bold and badass, huh.
Speaker 2:Literally I was ready and I posted an article on LinkedIn a month ago, something like that, where I was like listen, dear readers, I need you to know something, right, and I sort of like revealed my identity and connected it to the story and said my why and, like Danny's saying, I got such a response People want me on their podcast. Like you know, I got my first paid speaking engagement. I mean it's been like crazy, right. And you know, I think what folks gravitate towards for the messages that I've received and the conversations that I've had so far are, like you know, it's so odd the timing of this, because I too, you know, I wasn't going through like a disability, you know situation or a diagnosis of a health issue, but I, you know, have felt like I haven't been living authentically, like in my job.
Speaker 2:And like reading your posts has caused me to like get clearer and and and you know about the decision that I was making because, like you know, I felt like I wasn't like living in my truth, right Like I'm. I'm, I'm hearing this and I'm just like, oh my gosh, or it's giving me different perspective.
Speaker 2:I've heard on you know um how I lead my team, or you know, and so, but this is like the beginning, because this is literally only been, you know, in the past few months. This is not like you know. I came out as Nicole Dubois, you know, who wrote this story a year ago or even six months ago. This is, this is like happening now. You? You know, but so far, that's what I've been hearing.
Speaker 4:It's incredible gosh, it really is. And one like just so much appreciation for that and for what you're going through again in the roles that we do, right, it's really hard to sometimes be truly authentic because we mask so heavily. And I guess I want to ask a question that goes back to something you said a minute ago. You talked about psychological safety, which is my love language because that's my research. It's everything I talk about. Right, I have a hypothesis that's not backed up with any data other than observational.
Speaker 3:Those are the best kinds.
Speaker 4:But my hypothesis is that people who work in people, hr people, are the least psychologically safe in an organization. Isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting? I'd love to get your take on that, because that's how I feel. But I'd love to get your take on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to say 100%, first of all Because, you know, I think it's people that work with people. I think it's, you know, people that are in executive leadership teams. I think it's people that are very visible, that are very influential in an organization. I sometimes describe how I sort of experience some of this as feeling like I'm constantly on the interview. I have awareness that, no matter what room I'm in, what call I'm on, what meeting is going on, I have to be on. I got to know my stuff. I got to be on 10 out of I got to know my stuff.
Speaker 2:I got to be on like 10 out of 10, like you know, on point, all the time because people are checking, they're watching, they're, you know, concerned with you, know how you message and don't slip up once. You know, geez, you know how an email is crafted the whole nine. So there is like a sense of you know what's going to happen if I am, you know human and I make a mistake, or I'm human and you know I'm not like on 10 one day or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:So I literally I talk about that with my team all the time because I also think that some of that I'm not necessarily suggesting there's like an easy remedy for that or that that ultimately sort of goes away. I also, based upon what I was saying before, recognizing that folks are at different places and different stages, in their careers.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's okay to feel comfortable enough to take the mask off, and then it also has to, in my estimation, be okay when you feel like you have to put the mask on, even if it's temporary. Yeah, yeah, I have to for your own protection, your own psychological safety yeah psychological safety and and, and I want you know, for me to be able to normalize that where that is true also, you know, and so, but no 100%, it just you know. I do totally agree with your hypothesis.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's no wiggle room here, like there's no. I feel like with senior people, leaders, people that lead people, teams, there's very little room for forgiveness because usually if you make a mistake, it's a pretty critical one and you don't mean to. But the higher up you go, the more impact those decisions have. Right, 100%, and again, there's no one to talk to about it, there's no one to share the burden with. You're trying to, you know, give the best counsel that you can data backed, science backed. You know you're using all of the tools in your toolbox, but you know what. We're fucking human and sometimes things just go tits up and it is what it is and there's no forgiveness and um, we are held to account, I think, in ways that no other leaders are I, I was gonna say that too.
Speaker 3:I I think that there's almost more room for human flaw, even just like outright bad behavior, particularly for male executives in non-HR roles, where there is more forgiveness and they will get second chances and they will be able to write a letter of apology that HR doesn't get. Now I don't know if it's because we're kind of like the judiciary of the organization, like we have to have this like very specific kind of temperament that you know a ceo can like have too much to drink at a you know the employee party and do something bad a visual.
Speaker 2:I'm getting the image.
Speaker 1:That's funny yeah and, like you, you can't always go shot for shot with your employees.
Speaker 3:It doesn't always work like that yeah, but we've all read those stories of ceos doing this and then still being there a week later and and I I don't think there would be that kind of leniency um, there's not.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we don't we. We don't get that sort of forgiveness. We're held to a different standard, and let me just layer something in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:There's. If you I mean predominantly, we know right in our profession, predominantly women, we know that right Until you get to the C-suite. And you get to the C-suite and suddenly it's a plethora of men that have appeared. And it's really interesting because when you think about the, I guess the less strategic you are in your career, if you're a person that loves people and you want to help and you want to do good things, then you naturally gravitate into those kind of HR people-centric roles a support pillar, whatever it looks like.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's true, but the further up you get. It's not about that, it's about you know, it's really strategic, it's decision making. It's how do I support this business to achieve its organizational goals through people? Right, and so it's a very different mindset, um, but there's such a disconnect there between what we experience below the line and above the line. And and again asking you, nicole, you know, as a person of colour, that I would assume has a different level of feeling around that, because, again, you know, it's just one other thing that can be a challenge, and you know, I'd love to just kind of pick your brain on that. And and what sort of advice would you give people that are really keen to push beyond that parapet, to get to the next level, to get to those heady heights, but maybe feel that they're held back?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think you're, you know, spot on with that. And I think about my own career journey. At one point I was like the woman, the woman of color, the youngest, all of these things, and definitely did not feel like geez, I could just be myself and all that. Like geez, I could just be myself and all that. And I think that now that I've been at my organization for almost 20 years and I'm at the stage where I am, as I was describing, first of all, I have I might have said something similar before, but I have like sort of decided that it's my responsibility to connect with professionals, students, folks that are earlier in their journeys, to be a mentor, to be a support to, you know, be the one to hopefully bridge that gap.
Speaker 2:You know that you were describing, and so, like, literally, yes, I have my job, which I love, my job, yes, I have my job, which I love, my job, and in like, starting to take these steps to, you know, be the full expression of who I am as just a person, I have done a lot of things that are outside of my day job, you know mentoring students, workshops for students. I try to be more visible at university campuses. I, you know, try to be a peer mentor to folks that are maybe younger in their career journeys and so to have conversations in a way that, hopefully, is honest and real, and to say to you know folks that I'm connecting with, you know again the folks that I'm connecting with again, hopefully my example will make it a little safer for you and if I can be a resource that you could connect with.
Speaker 2:Reach out to me. I have people that reach out to me and they're just like can I get 15 minutes on your calendar for an intro call, a virtual coffee chat? And I'm like, yeah, what do I have to lose from that? I got 15 minutes, I'll be drinking my Starbucks, no problem. And I'm like, yeah, what do I have to lose from that? I got 15 minutes, I'll be drinking my Starbucks.
Speaker 2:No problem. And so for me, for folks that are on the other side of that, is taking advantage of folks that are in one's network and building out a network of resources that, um, you know, might be able to, to, you know, um, provide help. That's, that's meaningful advice, that's meaningful yeah, I think that's really.
Speaker 4:I think that's really gorgeous because because, again going back to that point, this is a lonely job and it gets lonelier the further up we go. And so building that trust with people like danny cash and I, we're like we have like infinite trust with each other. So, whatever we say, you know, we know it's safe, right, and that's special when you work in again these professions, because we carry so much, we're expected to carry so much. We're just human at the end of the day, we're just normal human beings. So I think when you're able to support people early in their career and cultivate that sort of relationship and give them that kind of foresight, like that's just gold and such a gift and that's like my passion project right now you know, I love that like you know it's I have.
Speaker 2:There are formal mentoring programs I'm a part of, but sometimes, like from my alma maters or whatever, I just have students that are like can I? Just have a conversation. You know I respect your career journey. I just want to talk to you and I'm like a hundred percent, you know.
Speaker 3:And I think some of that you know. When we talk about the loneliness at the top and not being able to share, I think some of it erodes your self-confidence and your self-assuredness and I think that erodes your psychological safety. And you can almost the way you were describing it, nicole you can almost get some of that back by giving to others. Right, I'm going to give mentorship advice, I'm going to give my time, but while I'm doing that, I'm getting this like oh yeah, I have been through this, I do know what I'm doing and all that, and it's such a. There's a great book by Adam Grant actually that talks about exactly that Give and take. That was a good one.
Speaker 3:But anyways, I wanted to switch back, before we wrap up, towards this authenticity piece and how you brought up the colleague, peer of yours, who posted like this is what someone with bipolar looks like, and you were really authentic and I think that a skill, and tell me what you think and how we could even develop this or what we need to take these steps, because it obviously takes a lot of courage and a lot of stuff, but in LinkedIn that is filled with people who are just like ChatGPT give me 10 weeks worth of content to post on LinkedIn and we have all the social media of here's what I'm doing to be an HR leader and it's very inauthentic and it is very AI. You know, and I love ChatGPT. We call ours Charlie, because you know it's. You know whatever it's useful and at the same time, like I can tell when I'm reading a LinkedIn post, that is AI generated and I can tell when one's authentic and I love the people I follow where I know it's them posting, yeah, and I love the people.
Speaker 3:I follow where I know it's them posting and I think that a skill that's going to separate people and really create high performing organizations is when they can find out there and be authentic in a world where it's like you have a chat. Gpt can do this and I can schedule it and I can keep up this like content schedule that is so demanding to keep up with everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, I am a huge proponent of the power of stories and I think that genuine experiences, but connecting genuine experiences that have happened to something like a message, right? So in my case it was about leadership, authenticity and leadership. I wasn't just sharing, you know what happened that caused me to write a book just for the purpose of sharing it. It was because I was connecting it to you know, a quality in leadership that I think is a critical quality, and so I think that having a strategy that you know sort of allows for those connections to be made. First of all, it allows for the practice of authenticity, but it also resonates with people in a different way of authenticity, but it also resonates with people in a different way.
Speaker 2:You know, like I don't want to read, like just any Joe Schmoes. There might be a real person named Joe Schmoes or whatever Anybody's like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know him.
Speaker 4:He lives up the street.
Speaker 3:I'm going to find a Joe Schmoe on LinkedIn to tag.
Speaker 1:We talked about you, joe. We talked about you, joe, like you, you, joe.
Speaker 2:We talked about you, joe, but I think, nicole, like you know, bullets Be authentic, because you're going to do that step A, then step B.
Speaker 2:No people connect to stories and so, like you know, you don't have to like again like bare your soul and share all the you know intimate details of your life. But if there's something that's real, like, use it. You know, for me it's. It's also, um, like I talked about the moment with my tears and all that, which were real, like that genuinely happened, but like literally, I was like able to just exhale. I'm like, oh my god, this feels damn good and like no one died.
Speaker 2:You know, I didn't break anything and no one died.
Speaker 1:Imagine that you know and what I think too, nicole, is also what I'm hearing from you is a little bit of like. In order to be authentic, there's there's a little bit of like not just being intentional, but like you have to really be like present. You have to put forth effort to some degree, right? I'm not saying like effort, like I need to go and do all of the spring cleaning all at once, not that kind of effort, but like the kind of effort where you have to really think about like if, is this authentic? Am I being authentic to me? If someone were to see me a week later, would they say it's the same person. Am I still like delivering the same message?
Speaker 1:It's not just about the aesthetics or anything like that, and I think that authenticity sometimes the hardest part of it is that you're.
Speaker 1:It takes effort to show up for you when you have all of those pressures and you and mary and we're both talking and really honing in on like how lonely it gets up toward the top and you have a whole organization who is looking to hold someone accountable to things that they hold personally right, like it's their healthcare, it's their benefits, it's their professional development, it's their compensation plan right, these are like, yes, you have your day-to-day tasks, but, honestly, all those things that bucket into the people space are the things that people take the most personally. People space or the things that people take the most personally, and so like it I. There's so many layers and I don't envy what it feels like to be up at the top when it starts to feel lonely. But I also absolutely love that you highlighted what not just mentorship gives to other people, but what it gives back to you, because that has to be, um, a salve for those harder days, I would imagine 100%.
Speaker 2:I was at that leadership offsite yesterday with my team, and we were planning for the year.
Speaker 2:We have a year that starts in July, and so I like to start each year with like a framing right for all of our initiatives, and what have you and so I wanted to, you know, spend time co-creating what our frame is going to be, and, you know, one of the very first things I talked about stories was about storytelling.
Speaker 2:The second one, though, was about compassion, and we were having this conversation about like well, what if, you know, one of the themes that frames our work and the way that we show up for this workforce is centered in compassion. You know, what would it look like to remind ourselves and remind our staff about? Like the fact that we, we recognize they're human and that there's, you know, yeah, there's the workforce and all the different things that we have to do, but what if we like centered humanity and compassion and care, and that helped to inform our conversations and our learning and development, and you know all the things that we have to do, right, but we, we sort of centered compassion, and so that like is something that has been front and center, you know, for me, and you know, it's something that I hope to carry forward in all that I do, you know, regardless of the spaces that I'm showing up in.
Speaker 3:And I feel like that conversation, being able to lead that conversation, has a little more weight, knowing that you've been vulnerable and you're not. You know, none of it's performative. Like this is really what you know Nicole cares about. And you know, you hear all these buzzwords and we get consultants to come in and do mission and vision statements and they're basically all the same Integrity, excellence. You know, like insert buzzword here Like it's, and I love that you wanted to co-create with your leadership. You didn't like hey, I'm the executive, I have a vision and this is how we're going to frame the whole year. Like honestly, that's, that's something. As I move on in my profession and you know, career I need to like slow down on and let other people take a voice I was tiptoeing.
Speaker 2:I told my director of reports about my book and I and I shared, like some of the recordings of podcasts that I've been on, and I'm telling you just the response that I've gotten has been so positive.
Speaker 1:They appreciated seeing a different side of me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, vulnerability and so the relationships have been evolving even since that.
Speaker 1:I can see that so easily, like I know, even like in in danny I've had him even say it to me in the past right where he's like oh, I can see, like where you have your work kasha, and then you have like your out of work kasha, like you have like it's not split personality.
Speaker 2:It is a little bit, yeah, like you have this, like like beyonce has, like sasha pierce, so like, yes, you know, after being like you know on all day, I come home. I'm like here's my Sasha, or whoever she is, my Danielle.
Speaker 1:Right, no, but that's so true. And so I think that's also what probably, like I can totally see that exciting the people that you get to work around because they're getting to see it's still you. It's not like, it's not like, you know, like turning it on a side, b side. It's not like turning it on A side, b side, it's just a different aspect of it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, like when you have a team that truly has established psychological safety.
Speaker 4:I think that ability to show vulnerability even means more, because I think it's incredibly powerful for people, for for employees, to see that leaders are not infallible and they are humans and we do need to co-create, we do need to support each other, we need to lift each other up, and when I think back to when Danny and Kasia and I first worked together, like we very quickly, I think, established a sound relationship that just got better and better over the next few years. But I and guys please correct me, keep me honest here if I'm speaking out of turn yes, I was the boss, but it didn't. It felt much more like a collaborative, felt much more like a collaborative process, right, and, and and was people that had a common goal and a common belief system and value system, that were very in sync with each other, just trying to do good work. And I think that when you can create that, co-create that together and I think leadership vulnerability is a huge part of that um, that's magic and you can't teach it and you can't train it.
Speaker 3:You just have to live it and experience it you just have to be real, like you have to be yourself, you have to be willing to take that risk and and laugh together and you know all of those things that are so human and honestly, nicole, tell stories and I think storytelling and that level of vulnerability of telling your honest stories, but also just that sort of like human connection that happens with storytelling. When, I, you know, do presentation and storytelling skills classes, I talk about like the earliest art form that humans had was storytelling.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know you're walking and you're telling stories. You're around the fire and you're telling stories way before we had any kind of music. It's a way we connect and I feel like we're missing out. I love that you're leading the way, not just as the author and the speaker, but as the team leader and the organizational leader that you have, and you're really leaning into storytelling and connection and authenticity. I think we need a lot of that.
Speaker 4:We need role models. We need role models and to me that's exactly what you're doing. That courageousness and that ability to just kind of move any doubts or fears out the way and and show your true self is so powerful and cannot be underestimated like. I'm I'm here for it and I'm so glad that we get to celebrate you and and what you've gone through to do this and yeah, can you know, continue to just like, be that role model for others that are trying to aspire to get to where you are today.
Speaker 1:I mean, what better role model, what better thing to role model in leadership than the aspect of co-creation? Amen like that's just like I'm gonna keep hearing that word on a loop tonight in my head, but like that aspect of co-creation because, let's be real, not all leaders can do that or want to do that. So to have that be a focal point speaks so highly to you as a person and as a leader, and people who get to read your book will, I think, get to see that as well. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much to see that as well. That's awesome. Thank you so much. I, I this is part in my book where I talk about, like you know, finding your passion. Cause I thought that was like a load of crap. Like what do you mean passion, you know? Um, but it's so funny. These experiences and this like era that I'm in I it's caused me to feel like dang well, maybe I'm like actually discovering my purpose, like you know, because it is a lot of this is like passion work, yeah.
Speaker 4:That's the reality so.
Speaker 2:I didn't know even when I wrote the book.
Speaker 3:I thought it was self-fulfilling prophecy in the best way self-fulfilling prophecy in the best way, but the impact we want to make on the world oftentimes finds us, as opposed to the other way around there you go and. I think I think you're finding it and I think it's awesome. I know I'm inspired. I'm gonna go ask chat GPT to get me a hundred different stories that align with my purpose to share on LinkedIn over the next hundred days your stories. It's just a recommendation. You know, it's just any stories.
Speaker 4:Any stories are fine. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Like there wasn't chat around when I was writing my book. That would have saved a lot of time. Oh right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:No, but it was a good exercise honey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we need a link for your book that we can put in the show notes. Also, you can follow all of us on LinkedIn. Thank you all for listening. Please be sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review, be sure to leave a comment for Nicole and thank her for being on. This was such an incredible episode. Thank you, nicole, and we'll see you guys next time. I almost said we'll listen to you again, but like we're anyways, mary, you can edit that out. We're not.
Speaker 4:Say goodbye, donnie Say goodbye, goodbye.
Speaker 2:Bye you.
