The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Bonus Episode - Battery Hens, Bullshit & Burnout: HR’s 2025 “You’ve Got to Be F*cking Kidding Me” Year in Review
BONUS EPISODE — and somehow, our 75th.
Your main event today is our conversation with Radhika Dutt, so if you only have time for one episode, go listen to her burn OKRs to the ground first. This bonus drop is the after-party.
Now… for everyone still emotionally recovering from HR in 2025, here’s our annual debrief: Battery Hens, Bullshit & Burnout — HR’s 2025 “You’ve Got to Be F*cking Kidding Me” Year in Review.
Danny, Marion, and Cacha look back at the most unhinged year HR has seen in decades — the RTO theatre, the DEI backlash, the AI delusion spiral, productivity cosplay, surveillance creep, and burnout so widespread it probably deserves its own ICD medical code.
We also celebrate the 23 incredible guests who joined us across The Elephant in the Org and RethinkAbility — a full-on stampede of elephants whose honesty, humour, and humanity kept us going.
If you’ve ever stared at a performance management template and thought, “I’m one KPI away from moving to the forest", this episode is your emotional support beverage.
Happy Holidays! We will see you again in the new year!
🐘 Connect with Us:
🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here
🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:
💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to The Elephant in the Org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello?
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: Alright, we are here, the end of 2025. If you're listening, congratulations! You survived this shitshow of a year.
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Marion: I'm proud of you.
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Danny Gluch: I am personally proud of all of us.
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Cacha Dora: Supes proud.
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Marion: I don't know, the duty's still out if I survived it or not, I don't know.
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Danny Gluch: You can't let everyone know when we're recording this, Marion.
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Cacha Dora: No, I mean, it just tells everyone they have to tune in for next season, so there you go, they have to find out that way.
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Danny Gluch: But this is our end-of-the-year wrap-up of the Elephant in the org for… it kind of doesn't all… it's season… what was it? 2 and part of Season 3, the 2025…
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Danny Gluch: Year in review.
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Marion: This episode's already chaos.
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Danny Gluch: The year was chaos, so it fits.
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Danny Gluch: And I'm…
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Marion: And I'm sober, can you believe that?
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Danny Gluch: So, it was a chaotic year, though, and I, like, a lot went on, personally, professionally, and then just sort of in the world of work. What were some of the things that stood out, personal, professional, or in the work world for you ladies?
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Marion: Oh my god. God, so many…
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Cacha Dora: Picking one? No, not even just one.
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Marion: It's like…
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Cacha Dora: I do think… Oh, go ahead, Marion.
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Marion: No, I was just gonna say, it's like picking amongst your least favourite red-headed stepchildren.
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Danny Gluch: How many stepchildren do you have, Marion?
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Cacha Dora: Treasure trove.
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Cacha Dora: I will say, Danny, I do think that, like, the…
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Cacha Dora: I feel like a theme of the year, both in positive, negative, eye roll, whatever you want to call it, right, is just this… the boom of AI.
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Cacha Dora: Because it's everywhere. It's in every software that you're using, it's in every business.
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Cacha Dora: conversation on how are we using it, how do we use it to stand apart if it's not in the software, right? Like.
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Cacha Dora: boards want to be talking about, like, I feel like it's just this…
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Cacha Dora: Concept that's grown its own life?
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Danny Gluch: But at the same point, it's still…
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Cacha Dora: Widely either misunderstood or misused or not being looked at through a true, futuristic, strategic lens.
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Cacha Dora: of how to use it, right? It's like an easy out. But also it's really beneficial, so it's weird to kind of talk about AI when you're… especially with the people that we talked to in this season, right? You hear the benefits, but you also hear the warnings, and so it's a really interesting
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Cacha Dora: An on-theme for 2025, kind of moment.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I know, that one definitely stood out. What about you, Marion?
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Marion: I mean, I think it's just been the continuation of the return to office mandate bullshit, like, I'm… I'm…
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Marion: I'm so over it. I'm so over the debate of, you know, is it hybrid versus remote? No, fuck off, it's not. It's none of it. It's flexible. Treat people like adults, give them flexibility, let them work how they best work, whether that's in an office, or at home, or in the fucking moon for all I care. As long as the job is getting done.
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Marion: and, you know, they're being productive and they're engaged, then why are we wasting all this time on, you gotta be in 3 days a week, bullshit, like, fuck it.
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Marion: So, no, it's… I'm… I'm… I'm kind of at that point now, and even though, like.
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Marion: you know, I'm just finalizing the list of my… my PhD write-up, like, The theme is clear.
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Marion: no one cares, right? Like, people just do not want to get into the whole thing of.
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Marion: how many days, how many minutes, how many hours do I… does my ass need to be on this chair?
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Marion: Yeah. Just let me do a good job, right? Especially right now, like, let's face it, this year has sucked.
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Marion: politically, economically, you know, socially, like, it has really been a tough year. And so…
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Marion: We just need a little bit of stability and a little bit of happiness.
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Cacha Dora: Stability in this world right now is in short supply, yeah.
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Marion: Stop weaponizing, like, all of the work staff employers. Stop weaponizing, stop weaponizing remote work, stop weaponizing DEI, stop weaponizing psychological safety. Just…
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Marion: Think about your people, treat them like good human beings, intelligent human beings, and just think about making work suck less, for the love of God!
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, honestly, that was one of the things that stood out to me, was… this pseudo-political… push.
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Danny Gluch: to pull back DEI, and with it, like, you're starting to see the pullback of, like, oh, is psychological safety actually a bad thing? Is that harmful? Or, you know, is that, you know, the snowflakes need psychological safety?
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Danny Gluch: And, you know, you see that paired with the quote, sin of empathy that you hear going around in some circles, and it's just like…
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Marion: where are we? Like, I don't even know what sort of era they're trying to pull back towards, but it seems like the 1300s. That's when the Dark Ages were, right? I can't remember.
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Danny Gluch: It's…
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Cacha Dora: It's in that bucket, for sure.
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Danny Gluch: It's really, really brutal. Like, I don't understand, sort of, like, what the end goal is, other than just to be reactionary and the opposite of whatever their opponents are. And, like, not for any productive way. And I see that in organizations. Like, how in the world do you…
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Danny Gluch: say psychological safety is a negative, and like, you're not gonna be productive if you have psychological safety. Like…
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Cacha Dora: If you can't take risks and you can't innovate, then, like, where's your business gonna go? So it's like, I'm with you, Danny. I feel like a lot of these things that have…
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Cacha Dora: been… not even sometimes thought about in businesses, right? Like, I've yet to, in my professional career, empathy has never had.
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Danny Gluch: a scarlet letter associated with it, right? Until now. Until now, but you're seeing, like, people fight against it, but you're also seeing, like.
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Cacha Dora: The burnout ratios just skyrocketing across industries because people have everything we just talked about happening at the exact same time.
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Danny Gluch: And it's really interesting. I was talking with a professor at a local university who's, you know, been doing research in organizational leadership for decades.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And he said that it's so interesting, because if you survey
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Danny Gluch: Anyone, from any sort of, like, generation, socioeconomic background, political leaning.
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Danny Gluch: and you tell them to describe bad bosses versus good bosses, they are just inherently, from their own experiences, describing psychological safety versus not. Because they know a good boss when they have it, and it describes psych safety, it describes, like, all of, you know.
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Danny Gluch: that's not the only framework to think of it as, but, like, it's one we use a lot, and I think fits really well. But, like, people know what it is, and yet they're, like, they're just…
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Danny Gluch: doing policy and, you know, railing against it for no good reason. They just want bad bosses, I guess. Maybe they don't like success, who knows?
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, there's… there's that. There's also… Connected to that, just…
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Marion: the plight of the middle manager, like, you know.
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Marion: We talk about all the time.
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Marion: I… if I was at the start of my career right now.
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Marion: I would not want to be a manager. I would want to be an individual contributor. I cannot imagine anything worse right now. The lack of support, the lack of training, the lack of, you know, enablement, development for capabilities, like, it's not there. It's all been cut away.
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Marion: And I'm sorry, but AI will not solve that one, so…
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Cacha Dora: No, not at all.
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Marion: - So…
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Danny Gluch: In fact, it might make it…
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Danny Gluch: more complicated? Like, think of, like, if AI is working well, and you have a lot of individual contributors.
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Danny Gluch: becoming really, sort of, like, effective, and being able to, like, perform a lot, then the ability to organize and coordinate and manage all of these, like, individual contributors who are not necessarily collaborating, but are using AI could be a very, very difficult challenge.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Completely. Okay.
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Danny Gluch: So, on to what I want to talk about, because we covered all of these topics, and what we've done is we have grouped our episodes from the year into 3 different sections of elephants, if you will. Herds. So we're…
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Danny Gluch: The herds of elephants that you, you heard.
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Danny Gluch: E-A-R-D, on our podcast. That's… oh man, that one's gonna be fun for the transcripts. Anyways…
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Danny Gluch: So the three clusters, and I want us all to try to power rank which ones we thought were the coolest, which ones we're gonna revisit, which ones we're gonna find ourselves in 2026, 2027, coming back and still talking about. So the three herds are… the first one.
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Danny Gluch: The future of work and flexibility.
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Danny Gluch: The second one, AI, tech, sort of workplace, overall chaos that that is doing.
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Danny Gluch: And the last one, Leadership, pain, and humanity.
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Danny Gluch: So…
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Of the three, what were… who were some of the guests that we had on and talked about? Which ones stood out for you ladies? Which ones do we think…
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Danny Gluch: Was the strongest.
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Marion: strongest, I don't know if I'd say that. I mean, they were all, like… they were all powerhouses, you know, we didn't have…
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Marion: one dud guest this year. Every single guest we had was an absolute powerhouse, and… Absolutely. And brought some incredible things to the table. I mean, I suppose…
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Marion: the one… for…
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Marion: personally for me this year was probably Dr. Burrow, Dr. Jo, and the HR kind of psychology piece, because that has been the wave that I was riding this year. You know, had…
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Marion: some incredible, professional experiences this year, but also had some really tough ones, and had a Friday night of…
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Marion: coming, you know, finishing up a workday, getting in the bathtub with a glass of wine, and sobbing for an hour, because I was so…
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Marion: Disillusioned and disengaged with my profession.
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Marion: And just realized that…
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Marion: the HR profession is on a one-way to hell right now, and people are leaving the profession in droves. They're tired of being the junk drawer of organizations, they're tired of being the corporate punch bag, they're tired of being…
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Marion: You know, this…
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Marion: blame-all, catch-all, and are just exhausted. And, you know, I… you guys have heard me say this for so long, I just want to leave my profession a little bit better than how I found it.
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Marion: And I guess that's what motivates me to do this work and the work that we do, but…
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Marion: Looking around me and just seeing so many esteemed colleagues just absolutely frazzled and at the end of their tether, particularly when it's been a year of, again.
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Marion: crap, right? Layoffs, disengagement, I mean, you know, employee engagement just falling at a rate of knots,
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Marion: a lot of stuff that doesn't necessarily sit well with principles and morals and stuff like that, so…
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Marion: that was a really bleak moment for me, and then when, you know, coming across Dr. Jo and her research, and then having her come in and chat to us, and…
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Marion: the wider recognition that there needs to be more support within the profession, you know, their notion of developing supervision for HR practitioners…
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Marion: wow, like, that just blew me away. So simple, right? Yeah. But so powerful, and…
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Marion: it's been lovely to see how that's kind of a gathered pace over the course of this year, and seeing companies embrace it, and recognising that their HR people do need support. And so, you know, I think that has been both
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Marion: a dark moment, but then the sun came out when I… when I learned about this research, and that… that gives me hope.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I like that.
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Cacha Dora: I think,
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Danny Gluch: I… oh, go ahead, Kasha.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, sorry, Danny. I think the cluster that I found the most fascinating, and very similar, I think, a little bit to Marion, and the fact that, like, it just applied to what I've been focusing on a lot this year.
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Cacha Dora: was around, like, that AI tech and workplace chaos. We had… we had an amazing AI series, trilogy, if you will, at the beginning of the season. But we had Mark Evans on, and he was talking a lot about AI and how it impacts education. I'm wrapping up my master's degree, and you have… every single syllabus I've had has had a different kind of statement around AI.
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Cacha Dora: Right? You've got some professors who are curious on how you'll use it, you've got others who are, like, zero tolerance.
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Cacha Dora: And his… what was so fascinating about the conversation we had with Mark was it wasn't just about how it's in education, it's what's the downstream effects. What's this gonna look like in 10, 15 years?
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Cacha Dora: In the professional context, when people are either entering the workforce, or now they're at that point Marin was talking about, where they move out of that individual contributor into a manager role, how prepared are they if they've been leaning on AI through their education?
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Cacha Dora: So, very fascinating conversation, because I think, again, we've been talking about AI. A lot of times it's short-term versus long-term. And then we also had Felix, who was talking with us around AI and in the talent space.
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Cacha Dora: And what that looks like, and that was just an illuminating conversation, not being in the talent field, but being adjacent, very much adjacent in our HR roles, right?
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And so it was just… it was really interesting just getting to hear from these experts about these burgeoning
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Cacha Dora: Areas that we have. And we also had,
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Cacha Dora: Is it Angelique? Angelique? I want to make sure I'm saying her name right. It's been too long, my brain's frozen. Yeah.
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Marion: Angelique.
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Cacha Dora: Angelique, and she was talking about just how people interact with data.
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Marion: And…
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Cacha Dora: how, like, all three of us, man, we wanted to nerd out so bad with what she was sharing about those data sets, and so it was really neat getting to hear how AI and tech are both
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Cacha Dora: aiding, the chaos we work… we work and live through, but also abetting at the same time. Like, they are… they are aiding the abettings. But it was… I love… we had such great conversations, and I do, I think that regardless of the cluster we're thinking about, I mean, it's hard to not be able to cherry-pick certain conversations that just…
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Cacha Dora: not only stood out, but I think for each of us as people, we'll kind of stand that test of time of things that we thought about. Like, even talking with, like, Deb, right? And just how exuberant she is, and how she looks at AI through such a different lens than other people I've spoken to yet.
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Cacha Dora: So I just think it's a really interesting… it is an interesting time, but it's also one that is tempered.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah. And I just want to point out here as well, like, kind of adjacent to this again, but…
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Cacha Dora: Using Dandy's favorite word?
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Danny Gluch: I know.
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Cacha Dora: infecting everyone with my word choices. You are. You are. It's not suboptimal, don't worry.
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Marion: I know, I even… I even find myself saying milquetoast at work quite a lot now, so here we are.
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Danny Gluch: Such a good word.
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Marion: I know.
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Marion: You have to explain it to people, because they don't know what it means. But,
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Marion: Yeah, no, the… what was really cool just was having the Glasgow Mafia join us, actually. You know, Mark… Mark Evans is… I've known Mark since I was, like, 17, you know, so it was really cool, being able to hang out with him through this context. And then, obviously, Alice Narnett, another dear friend of mine.
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Marion: You know, someone who is,
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Marion: world-class expert on internal crisis communications, and being able to have two people that are very dear in my life, but really…
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Marion: doing some incredible work, and being able to… to bring that, to our listeners was really cool. But yes, more Glasgow Mafia, please.
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Danny Gluch: Can I say I am shocked by something? Shocked and borderline appalled.
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Danny Gluch: Marion did not think that the best cluster was future of work and flexibility. The one person who brings up return to office and the need for flexibility in every episode, no matter what.
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Danny Gluch: Marion!
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Marion: I mean…
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Cacha Dora: Marian contrarian.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah? No, no, no, I appreciate the objective stance in saying that you thought that Cluster C was the better one, but I'm gonna make the case
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Danny Gluch: for… just, like, the personally, where I still see it as such a difficult and interesting problem for organizations, was brought up, I think, most clearly by Paul Myers having
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Danny Gluch: Having to coordinate and work through and, for the first time, do a podcast with a deaf person.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: and… And feeling that…
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, exactly.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, feeling that experience, but also, like, the struggles of understanding and trying not to offend and be sensitive, but also, like.
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Danny Gluch: give Paul a voice, and then…
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Danny Gluch: in our conversations with him, and actually experiencing how easy it was to communicate, I thought was really personally very, like, eye-opening and challenging.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: But also seeing, like, organizations struggle to get there. And, like, even if there's an individual in your organization who has that sort of, like, consciousness and awareness of, like, this is really what it's like.
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Danny Gluch: getting these sort of collective awareness of, like, no, no, no, this is gonna be fine, and it's gonna feel like a risk, but it's not a risk. Paul's gonna, like, be incredible.
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Danny Gluch: And seeing how, like, we still have a long ways to go in work fit and the future of work, and part of that, you know, feeling really challenged by Dan Smolin, you know.
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Danny Gluch: A number of us are in some very large organizations, and there's not a lot of that flexibility, and it's hard to find where you fit in, and what's your work style.
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Danny Gluch: And hearing Dan's story and, you know, all the conversations he has on his podcast with people finding their work fit was also just like, oh, man, like…
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Danny Gluch: if I was leading even a medium-sized enterprise organization, like.
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Danny Gluch: what does implementing this look like for my people? What is the hiring? What is the structure? What's the long-term strategy? What's the growth trajectory of…
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Danny Gluch: And, you know, it's…
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Danny Gluch: It's really interesting, and I think if someone solves it, they're gonna do very well for themselves, and they'll sell lots of books, and make a million dollars a year in consulting.
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Danny Gluch: But it's a really interesting problem. And, you know, Michelle McDade, who, you know, in one of our more recent episodes that we released, that conversation feels like it was a long time ago.
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Cacha Dora: You know, it's…
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Danny Gluch: It really does emphasize how work flexibility is really just… it needs to be in the DNA. And… and I think…
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Danny Gluch: I think that's part of the answer to Paul's work fit, right? And if an organization really is flexible and malleable, then Paul would fit in just fine. But I think so much of the organizations just, they're so rigid. And that's why that cluster for me, and I know
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Danny Gluch: smaller, you know, we only had, like, 3 episodes that really dug in there. But, for me, that was just, like, such a challenging, eye-opening one.
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Marion: Yeah, but the…
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Marion: what is really concerning is that rigidness that you speak of is getting worse. You know, the compliance…
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Marion: buying control, complying control. Like, we're starting to… it feels like there's a noose, right? You know, metaphorically. But it feels like that… that tightening is… is… is, you know, more pronounced.
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Marion: However…
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Marion: However, at the time of recording this, we've noticed in our political landscape some significant shifts in the last week.
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Cacha Dora: Changes in… in allegiance, changes in…
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Marion: you know, that kind of dissemination of power, shall we say. And so, my hypothesis
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Marion: Is, as that landscape shifts, hopefully in a better direction.
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Marion: I hope to see that… that same common sense and that same energy.
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Marion: happen to play out in organisations again as well. We have to get back from this absolute place of, you know, autocracy and control and comply, because we are killing our humans. We are killing ourselves. So, I'm… I'm hopeful, is that we go into next year
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Marion: Hopefully a shift in our political, economic, sociological energy?
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Marion: will start to have a positive impact on workplaces, and I want to see Paul be hired. Again, at time of recording, Paul is still unemployed, he's not had any offers, and…
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Marion: That's… Heartbreaking, because this is an incredibly intelligent, articulate, skilled, and just… You know…
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Danny Gluch: With the breakfast.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, and passionate, yeah, exactly.
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Marion: Absolutely. Why would you not want that in your workforce, you know? So…
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. The one thing I would want to add on too, Denny, just on that… that rigidity, right? Like, because the flexibility, if it's not flexible, then it's rigid, right? Like, you've got those kind of, like, two ends of the seesaw. I also think what it really speaks to, and I think, Marian, there's an underpinning to what you were talking about with our socio-political climate.
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Cacha Dora: is trust, either organizations that give and have it, and the ones that don't, and those who do.
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Cacha Dora: have trust and provide trust as a two-way engagement, they are flexible with their workforce. And those who do not, either on one side or the other, if their workforce doesn't trust the organization, or the organization doesn't trust the workforce, or both.
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Cacha Dora: Those are the ones we're finding to be the most rigid. Yeah. So I think that that rigidity, like, it… not to simplify it and just funnel it down to… it only comes down to trust, there's so much more to that, but I do think that there's so many factors that impact it, and that socio-political climate is definitely one of them.
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Marion: I think 2026 is going to be a very interesting year, because.
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Cacha Dora: was…
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Marion: So we're… we're… in the last week, it's changed significantly. So, let's see how that continues to play out.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, we don'.
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Danny Gluch: We need some more material scientists to find something that is both rigid and flexible. Come on.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, so I guess we didn't power rank those very well.
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Cacha Dora: We all liked everything.
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Danny Gluch: We did.
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Marion: B, all of the above. Yeah, it was, but I think just to kind of bring all of that home, like.
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Marion: the learning that I think we've all had just through the participation of these incredible guests, incredible thought leaders, diverse.
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Marion: Ranges of thought, the gift that that's given us, and hopefully others that listen, has been just invaluable.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
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Cacha Dora: Yes, I concur completely.
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Danny Gluch: But we'll get to that more in depth in a later segment.
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Marion: Okay.
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Danny Gluch: But…
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Danny Gluch: I think one of the things that I love so much about doing this podcast, and the feedback we get from listeners and guests, is our ability to…
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Danny Gluch: to rethink things, to dig deeper, to not just take things as they are. And one of our big projects that started kind of a year ago was Rethinkability.
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Danny Gluch: And Marion, you really spearheaded this with your conversations with our dear friend Greer. Yeah. And tell us about, again, you know, recapping what we really did for…
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Danny Gluch: The conversation around disability.
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Marion: accommodation.
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Danny Gluch: in the workplace.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, if I… if I…
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Marion: think back to… it's more than a year, right? It's actually… I mean, it's probably…
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Year and a half-ish, something like that?
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Marion: Yeah, like, it's been a long time making, but last fall, Greer and I were having a catch-up one day, and, you know, I was navigating, accessibility accommodations and having a bit of a tough time with it. I'm not used to…
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Marion: having to rely on other entities to make accommodations for me, because I've always worked at home and been able to make my own, right?
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Marion: And it was really tough to navigate, and that just kind of catalyzed a conversation around how HR practitioners are not equipped for this, no one trains us, no one takes us aside in HR school and tells us how to deal with accommodations and support.
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Marion: disabled employees and… and to not be ableist, and all of that. No does, right? So we're winging it. Again, HR, the least psychologically safe in any organization, and the ones that have the least amount of agency to fuck up, right? So, when we… when we do…
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Marion: Maybe not do things in the best way when it comes to things like accessibility.
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Marion: It was really hard, and I… and I was… I faced, a little bit of microaggressions, and… and it just really opened my eyes to think, how many times have I done this to someone else, and not meant to, right? Just through lack of knowledge, ignorance, you know.
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Marion: And so, that's where that conversation started, and we were like, wouldn't it be cool for there to be a resource for HR practitioners that they could really start to understand some of this stuff in a more…
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Marion: thoughtful and deeper way, not just, if you have to apply for ADA, this is what you do. Like, no, that belt, the transactional shit, yeah, that's fine, it's the deeper stuff.
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Marion: And that's where that came from, and wow, what a journey that has been, you know, starting off building this… this real core group of… of our podcast production team, you know, us, Greer, Leah Sate, like…
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Marion: That, pulling together those panels, those seven episodes, where we really explored,
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Marion: You know, the impacts of… of, not having a visible disability that people can instantly see.
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Marion: Having to battle stereotypes, having to navigate systems that were not built for us, that were not designed for us, having to navigate the massive amount of ableism that exists in organizations and in society general, generally
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Marion: And, that has been one of the most transformative
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Marion: parts of my own disability journey, getting to explore a lot of the emotions that I've had as I've, kind of, come to terms with being disabled.
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Marion: And getting to learn from some of the best thought leaders that there are. I mean, there's so many incredible people that contributed to the podcast.
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Marion: alone, you know, Dr. Angela Young, Dr. Akilah Kaday.
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Danny Gluch: Okay, yeah.
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Marion: Yep, Deb has, like, so many people, that gave their time generously, and their experiences, and it was phenomenal. And what was even more phenomenal was that then the continuation of that work into the summit, the three-day summit that happened in October, and
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Marion: you know, I facilitated on a panel myself, I attended a lot of it, obviously did a good amount of work, as did you guys behind the scenes with the production team.
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Marion: but really just proud of our friends, Greer.
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Marion: Procich and Jessica Donahue, who really drove
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Marion: the three-day summit initiative, and the feedback has been phenomenal. You know, there's people that work in the accessibility space who are seen as experts in the accessibility space, who have commented
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Marion: quite openly. That's phenomenal content. There was great stuff there. And so I'm excited to see where it goes next. It's certainly not the end of our disability advocacy work, it's only the beginning. But,
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Marion: God, it's something that, you know, I think that we're all pretty proud of.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah, it was… getting to see… I mean, that's the thing, right? Like, behind the scenes, we've seen it take this long.
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Cacha Dora: To see something that happens in 3 days, and getting to see the amount of people in each session, how engaged everyone was in those sessions, the chats, the links that were being shared, people were just, like, using it as an open forum to be able to really
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Cacha Dora: support each other, but also, like, the eye-opening, right? Like, the openness in those…
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Cacha Dora: was just so huge, and, you know, I think something… I think back to what Greer said, I think, in the very first podcast we had with her, and I might butcher it a little bit, so I apologize in advance, Greer. But, you know, she always brings up that disability, it's not like you just suddenly… you just… you've always had it. Everyone has a moment of disability
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Cacha Dora: or a lack of ability in their life, and it happens at any time, right? Like, you…
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Cacha Dora: It can happen tomorrow, you just don't know. And so understanding that ableism, and how truly ingrained in our society and our structures it is.
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Cacha Dora: Even if you just peel off a couple layers, you'll start to understand what disability looks like for a lot of people, because, like you said, Mirren, right, it's not always visible. In fact, most of the time, it's not.
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Cacha Dora: So…
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Cacha Dora: I think that, people in the HR space and the people who found community in this as well, I think that, you know, there were a lot of boons to be had by all of the wonderful work that went into Rethinkability. So, so proud of everybody.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it really was a phenomenal experience. It was a lot of work, and thank you all.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you, too, in particular, and thank you everyone who was involved in making that happen. There were…
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Danny Gluch: hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of labor put in to make that happen, and I think we did a really good job, hearing from… from guests and from listeners on those podcasts about…
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Danny Gluch: How refreshing it was for it not just to be a disability conversation.
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Danny Gluch: That just has to cram every aspect of disability and the disability experience into one conversation, but where we gave it space to really just focus on different parts, and really let it be a whole conversation just about
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Danny Gluch: the different elements.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And that was really eye-opening to me. It made my philosopher heart very warm, taking a very systematic approach to understanding it. And it really did help me understand,
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Danny Gluch: You know, just what it is to both experience it, and to…
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Danny Gluch: take it on as an HR practitioner, in a much deeper level.
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Marion: Yeah, and I'm just proud of working with such, you know, an incredible collaboration of folks, who…
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Marion: Just wanted to give.
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Marion: HR practitioners, leaders, anyone really, just give them grace to know that it's okay when you don't know. It's okay. No one expects you to know, no one trains you on this stuff.
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Marion: And, you know, let's dialogue it, and let's see what we can all learn together. And that's the thing, right? It's about community, it's about collaboration, it's about grace and support and love at the end of the day.
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Cacha Dora: and, like.
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Marion: Debbie.
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Cacha Dora: Peace and love, baby.
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Marion: He's in love! He's in love. I lived in San.
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Danny Gluch: San Francisco for a very long time. I have a… A soft spot for hippies.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Okay, on to the next section.
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Danny Gluch: We have… so I know we have our Oh Shit What Now episodes, our sort of, like, emergency podcast episodes, which hopefully we'll have more time for, but less need for in 2020.
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Marion: Oh, unlikely, love, unlikely.
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Danny Gluch: But we also have the, oh, shit, moments that we all, the three of us, have while we're talking to guests of, like.
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Danny Gluch: just mind-blown, eye-open, like, we just learned something. So, I'm calling this the Oh Shit, I Learned Something Awards from 2025.
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Danny Gluch: What are… what are some of the nominees, what are some moments where you were just like.
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Danny Gluch: slack-jawed, like, oh my god, that was incredible, I can't believe I just heard that.
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Marion: I mean, when I was editing back the episode with Michelle…
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Marion: and, you know, I had sort of, like, inadvertently set up the battery hen sort of analogy for her, and she brought it home, because I think I said something like, you know, no one wants to feel like they're a battery hen in the office.
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Marion: And Michelle just really brought that home and said, no, like, why battery hens? Like, no, we want to be free-range.
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Marion: Which Danny then jumped on, because he's like, I want to be a free-range employee. But that analogy of just talking about eggs and chickens, like, really,
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Marion: I thought it was powerful, and it got a lot of traction on LinkedIn, and a lot of people kind of, like, coming back and really talking about that. And I think about it a lot now. I think about free range.
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Marion: Yeah, free-range, what a beautiful way to just explain to people, what are free-range hens? Free-range hens are in some form of parameter, right? They're not just wandering the wilds of wherever.
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Marion: they're in a parameter, but they're not cage… well, they maybe are cage, but I'm talking like an egg cage. But they're certainly not… they're certainly not in a… in a chicken coop battery environment, right? But they are able to roam and explore and, and produce higher quality eggs.
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Marion: than those who are basically churning them out under, you know, a micromanagement environment. So, like, it was really powerful, and I think that's an analogy that I'll use until the end of my days.
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Danny Gluch: That's a good one. Kasha, what about you?
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Cacha Dora: I love that, I love that. It's funny, these moments, that we have them in the conversations, and sometimes
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Cacha Dora: time goes by, and you're like, I forgot about that, that was so good!
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Cacha Dora: I think the thing for me, like, kind of just reflecting on a lot of our episodes,
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Cacha Dora: was… is kind of going back, and I mentioned it just briefly, but it really is that that disability… aspect of disability is something that is unpredictable, and it can happen at any time, and it's so…
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Cacha Dora: powerful, right? Like, you could have disability that might last a week. You could have disability that's for the rest of your life.
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Cacha Dora: And navigating things and what disability looks like for everyone is a very individualistic experience, even though there is a collective of people there to support you because they're in it with you, even though they have their own individualistic experience. And I think that that was something that
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Cacha Dora: genuinely stood out to me, like, I considered myself someone who was semi-knowledgeable about
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Cacha Dora: disability and what that looked like from my own personal experience, as an individual, with relatives,
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Cacha Dora: But, you know, thinking about Leah, and…
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Cacha Dora: her story of… her interaction with her… a manager, and her using… her use of a wheelchair, which is something that she was so excited to have, and so proud to have. It was like a crowning moment for her. She'd gotten it, she was so thrilled, and this individual who
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Cacha Dora: Apparently didn't think.
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Cacha Dora: you know, was like, well, do you… can you not use it? Like, it doesn't look great for business, like, and… and it just kind of just squashed her, in… in that moment, and…
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Cacha Dora: these tools that we use every day to help us, whatever it is, right? Dimming the lights, or having a wheelchair, or needing a certain type of chair to help support while you are sitting, these things that we use.
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Cacha Dora: they… they make it so we can do everything we need to do, and… and it's an individual journey, and I think that
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Cacha Dora: it was just very eye-opening, and in my mind, a beautiful way, to what everyone else has been experiencing, and things that, in my head, I couldn't consciously even…
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Cacha Dora: think that someone would treat another human that way, but also knowing that that's the work that's there to be done. It was like, this is horrible, but now I know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And… and it did, it sat, like, every episode, it… regardless of who was speaking about what, and in those panels, like, there were just…
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Cacha Dora: Almost too many things to kind of call out, but… Yeah, the…
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: every time we've heard Leah share about her… that experience with her wheelchair, it's like being hit with a block of ice again for the first time.
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Cacha Dora: And it really was, like, wow, like, it is… it's a learning moment, and it should be a learning moment, you know, for people.
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Danny Gluch: It's a strong nominee for the Oh Should I Learn Something Award.
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Marion: Sure, Stani.
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Danny Gluch: You know, okay, so I'm super torn. And I've been torn on this, kind of? Well, actually, I wasn't torn on this. I was super set until we just recorded with Radhika Dutt.
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Danny Gluch: And now it's… it's torn. Okay, so I was for sure 100% gonna do Cassandra Biblia? Bibilia, and…
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Danny Gluch: the idea of what burnout really is, and where she talked about apathy, and the… the loss of seeing yourself there in the future. Just like… I'm getting chills right now thinking about it.
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Danny Gluch: because I think that applies to more than just work. Like, relationships, I think we've all been in relationships where it's like, oh, wow, I just can't envision myself
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Danny Gluch: with this person in the future anymore. Like, and what that feels like, and it's all of your energy that you could have put into it is just gone.
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Danny Gluch: And I think that's really one of those things that happens to people at work, where it's just like, oh…
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Danny Gluch: there's no future here for me, and now I all of a sudden have no feeling of competency, I just… I don't have the energy to put in that level of work that actually I would enjoy in any way, or feel proud of, and it's just gone.
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Marion: It's a masterclass in how burnout directly impacts psychological contract, right?
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely.
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Marion: And it, it really was, and, and, just, just…
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Marion: well, it's in my head. I just want to recognize some of the work that Cassandra's done this year, particularly within, the federal workers community, because being ex-CIA, and then seeing everything that happened at the beginning of the year with Doge and all the cuts, she's done some absolutely incredible work helping,
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Marion: Previously, you know, federal workers translate.
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Marion: the… the, I don't know, civilian, non-federal, work environment, and help, you know, be able to kind of translate those skills into a different way. So, just… sorry, Dani, didn't want to derail, but just when you talked about Cassandra, I just wanted to shout that out. She's done some absolutely incredible work this year.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely, she's incredible. Everyone should go find her. And that's something that I will always, just, that conversation, and particularly that part, because we hear burnout all the time, and there's so many studies, and half the time, I don't believe the studies, because I don't think it's well-defined when people are self-reporting on burnout.
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Danny Gluch: Where they're just tired, or they feel like they're worked a lot, and it's like, but that's not really…
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Danny Gluch: what burnout is, and she did… Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It's mental, it's physical, it's emotional.
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Danny Gluch: emotional.
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Cacha Dora: full body system, right? It's not just one component.
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Danny Gluch: And she did the best I've ever heard of actually answering that. And it's something that I hope gets more traction, because I think more people, you know, as the philosopher, like, if people use the word in the right way, it'll be better, because that's why we have different words for different things.
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Danny Gluch: And that just… that was… that was 100% what I was gonna choose, and then I got torn because of our most recent conversation with Radhika Dutt about goal setting, and how… how we set goals, and how we aim for goals.
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Danny Gluch: is one of the big problems that creates an environment that just cannot have things like psychological safety or innovation and all of that stuff, and it was just like…
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Danny Gluch: kind of shaken to the bone. I've had a few conversations with her now, and it's happened every time, where it's just like, oh my god, like, as long as this exists.
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Danny Gluch: We're never gonna have that trust, or that… that freedom of the feel of failure, and things like that, that are necessary for psych safety, and it's…
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Danny Gluch: Whew.
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Danny Gluch: That was a… that was an oh shit moment.
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Marion: It was. It was really powerful. It really.
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Cacha Dora: Boys.
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Marion: and…
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Cacha Dora: I had conversations afterward with that, too. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, and actually, I just ordered her book, the…
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Marion: first book, yeah, so I'm gonna read that while I'm convalescing over the holidays from my surgery. But, just…
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Marion: real… really refreshing take.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, sick.
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Marion: and, the bullshit that goes along with it. And I think at a macro level, it really just highlights the amount of nonsensical
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Marion: employee life cycle work that continues to happen without any thought, because it's just what we do around here. And actually, she stood back and went, this is shit, this is crap, it's not…
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Cacha Dora: And she backed it up with all of the data, and the evidence, and, like, where it came from, and, like, and, like, where… why it worked then, right? Which I think, like, when that episode comes out, like, that's the thing, right? Those… that goal-setting…
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Cacha Dora: Worked for those periods then because of a very specific thing, and we don't have those specific things now.
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely. So that one, for me, it just… I had to bring it up. I still don't know which one I would choose of the two, because they were both literally, like.
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Danny Gluch: changed the fabric of how I see the world.
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Marion: Which is…
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Marion: I feel like I just actually just want to shout out just one other episode that I think… God, I could… I honestly could go every episode, but I just want to talk about
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Marion: probably the impact that Danny Wheirum's episode had on me.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I cite him in one of my papers.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah, well I got, I got, to contribute to his book, so.
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Cacha Dora: Are you good?
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Marion: No, no, no, okay, you win, you win, you win. But I also got to contribute to Alison's book, which was really cool, so I am in two books this year. But Danny's, our conversation with Danny around psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Cacha Dora: The dark triad.
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Marion: The dark triad, like.
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Marion: I now look at leadership behaviors in a very different way to what I did before, and I now recognize the importance
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Marion: of those three elements in leaders, you need to have…
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Marion: a certain amount of psychopathy, Machiavellianism, you know, narcissism in leaders to operate effectively, but not to the extremes that we see in, you know, our favourites like Musk and Jesse and all the other ones.
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Marion: And so…
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Danny Gluch: jobs.
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Marion: See, yeah, you know, like, it truly existed, right? So, like, I just wanted to kind of shout that one out. I think Danny's work's exceptional, and…
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Danny Gluch: What… just what a nice guy as well. Fun to hang out with. Yeah, no, that one… that really was a great… it was just so hard to, like, find a nugget.
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Marion: Or… because the whole conversation was just like, I have to think about this for a very long time.
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Marion: Yeah, absolutely.
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Danny Gluch: Ugh. Okay, so… Last award.
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Danny Gluch: The Whoa, Nelly.
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Danny Gluch: for the biggest elephant of, sort of, HR Work World 2025. So, I mean, we had quite a few of the big, massive layoffs. Shrm dropping equity, that was… that was a big one.
382
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Danny Gluch: Meta's just constant issues with never being masculine enough.
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Cacha Dora: Whatever. Whatever.
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Danny Gluch: Just draw a mustache on your logo and be done with it, come on.
385
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Marion: Yeah, insight.
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Danny Gluch: The deal versus Rippling, the, just, like, espionage, Spygate?
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Marion: One of our… one of our best episodes, one of our most listened to episodes, this year. Like, everyone was jumping on that one.
388
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. One, that we missed the cycle, but the… Coldplay CEO, CPO, canoodling?
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Marion: Yes.
390
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.369
Danny Gluch: Gate? I don't even know what to call it.
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00:47:57.370 --> 00:48:06.070
Marion: smooching CEO and CPO who were definitely not playing cold. You were so proud of that, Mary. I know.
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Marion: I know.
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Marion: And it was a good one. But I just want to go back to the SHRM one again. Like, I'm sorry, right? But I have been asking… now, with the…
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Marion: SHRM Blueprint Conference happened right at the same time we were doing, the Rethinkability Summit, so my attention was very much not on it. However, I was very cognizant of them having,
395
00:48:33.170 --> 00:48:41.629
Marion: Van Jones and Robbie Starbuck, to hammer out the whole thing around DEI, which was just…
396
00:48:42.050 --> 00:48:46.109
Marion: fucking nauseating, to be frank. And…
397
00:48:46.610 --> 00:48:52.310
Marion: asking, hey, what were the takeaways? Did anything good come out of it? You know, did anyone learn anything?
398
00:48:52.930 --> 00:48:54.600
Marion: Silence.
399
00:48:55.170 --> 00:49:08.859
Marion: No, I don't know which one that went, and those who I did know that were planning to go, they backed out. And I know a few of our friends have been asking the same question in the LinkedIn community. Did anyone get anything?
400
00:49:09.370 --> 00:49:20.380
Marion: just crickets. And so, the bits that I did manage to claim were not great, were not positive, it did not sound like it… it was a conversation worth
401
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Marion: anything. But really, that, for me, was such a disappointing… just as I thought SHRM couldn't get any lower, they got to a whole new level of low point, and for me, if I'd had any kind of
402
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Marion: thoughts about my loyalties and funding them as an organization for any resources and what have you, that's gone now. I'm done. That just… that was the final nail in the coffin, unfortunately.
403
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Cacha Dora: Can I make a case?
404
00:49:50.210 --> 00:50:00.689
Danny Gluch: can I make a case for the CEO and CPO at the Coldplay concert being the biggest elephant, or whatever thing that happened? Because literally, everyone…
405
00:50:00.690 --> 00:50:01.630
Cacha Dora: thing, but I still…
406
00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:07.259
Danny Gluch: It was the only topic other than 6-7 that I could talk about.
407
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Marion: Yo!
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Danny Gluch: The kids knew? We're talking, like, 7- and 11-year-olds.
409
00:50:11.730 --> 00:50:12.529
Cacha Dora: You know, you know…
410
00:50:12.530 --> 00:50:14.540
Danny Gluch: out the Coldplay concert.
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Cacha Dora: You know it's on a whole other level. You know it's on a whole other level when you've got mascots, mascots at games, doing it with the other team's mascot.
412
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Danny Gluch: Yes, I think the biggest revelation is that you were watching a sports event.
413
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Cacha Dora: Who's the Phillies?
414
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Danny Gluch: The Fnatic is incredible. But yeah, I…
415
00:50:36.290 --> 00:50:42.220
Danny Gluch: Marion, I think you're right. I think SHRM just had a hell of a 2025 derogatory.
416
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Cacha Dora: And it hit our field, right? Like, I think that's almost the difference. Like, if you're only looking at, like, what was the award for, like, the HR and HR-adjacent space, the SHRM.
417
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Cacha Dora: the SHRM move, because it was like a… a betrayal, right? Like, of all the things…
418
00:50:57.980 --> 00:51:03.449
Cacha Dora: people have been working so hard to achieve, and it just was a kowtow move. It was just…
419
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Cacha Dora: not… not for what people were trying to do, but I also completely grab my beer tiebreaker and be like, I agree with both of you. I'm talking on both sides of my mouth. But also, like, when you look at it from, like, a… this… the whole Coldplay, CPO, C… CEO moment, that moved out of the HR space. Now that was just, like, there are memes, you're seeing, like, there were people using AI to use different characters.
420
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Cacha Dora: To have, like, to emulate that, like, it took on a whole life of its own, and the sad part, the truly sad part, was if they had done nothing.
421
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Cacha Dora: No one would have noticed.
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Marion: Exactly.
423
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Cacha Dora: But they… the way that they reacted is what caused the storm.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, they're not, they're not, like, visually famous. Like, no one would have known them. They were the most milquetoast-looking white people I've ever seen.
425
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Danny Gluch: And, had they just played it cool, no one would have cared.
426
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Marion: I know, but the only thing for me that was missing out of that entire thing is that come the weekend, SNL did not cover it as a skit, because that would have been goal. They didn't? No! I don't remember. No, but I wish they had, because that would have been brilliant.
427
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Cacha Dora: Funny.
428
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Danny Gluch: Alright.
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00:52:15.520 --> 00:52:19.300
Marion: Although, let's just shout out Gwyneth Paltrow, to.
430
00:52:19.300 --> 00:52:20.230
Cacha Dora: Yes.
431
00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.250
Marion: That was so good.
432
00:52:24.250 --> 00:52:26.249
Cacha Dora: That was brilliant. 10 out of 10.
433
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Danny Gluch: Oh, okay.
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00:52:26.690 --> 00:52:27.499
Cacha Dora: I can't move that one.
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00:52:27.500 --> 00:52:28.170
Marion: Yeah.
436
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Danny Gluch: Okay, so are we gonna go the Each Ghetto Award, or are we going with SHRM?
437
00:52:32.350 --> 00:52:36.309
Cacha Dora: I feel like they both… I think they get a glo… like, get a global award and an HR award.
438
00:52:36.310 --> 00:52:38.249
Danny Gluch: HR-specific? Okay, perfect.
439
00:52:38.250 --> 00:52:39.799
Marion: Alright. Yeah, cool. I'm done.
440
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Danny Gluch: Okay, and as we wrap up, what's one thing you want to carry with us into 2026?
441
00:52:46.390 --> 00:52:48.540
Danny Gluch: God, that's 2026.
442
00:52:48.540 --> 00:52:51.769
Cacha Dora: Oh my god. I'm graduating in 2026, I'm carrying that.
443
00:52:51.770 --> 00:52:52.610
Danny Gluch: Into it.
444
00:52:52.610 --> 00:52:53.060
Cacha Dora: Woo!
445
00:52:53.060 --> 00:52:55.610
Marion: Woohoo! Hopefully I am too, gosh.
446
00:52:55.610 --> 00:52:56.319
Danny Gluch: Yeah, both of you.
447
00:52:56.860 --> 00:52:57.210
Cacha Dora: S…
448
00:52:57.210 --> 00:52:59.390
Danny Gluch: Yeah. Add some letters to those names.
449
00:52:59.390 --> 00:53:00.730
Marion: Yeah, I know.
450
00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:12.069
Marion: Oh, I don't know. I… I feel like 2025 was just a bit of a cesspool of a year, just in terms of all things employee psychologically related.
451
00:53:12.410 --> 00:53:15.569
Marion: And I want to see…
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Marion: I want to see a shift in that energy, and I think that that's gonna… gonna come from a lot of places. I think that that needs to come through the continued hard work of the people in our profession and adjacent professions, and…
453
00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:48.269
Marion: lifting people up and… and continue to really think about learning and upskilling and… and changing skills, as opposed to, well, AI's taking your job now, you know. But unfortunately, we're still seeing shit things happen, like what Trump just…
454
00:53:48.350 --> 00:53:57.100
Marion: declassified nursing as a profession, I mean, or as a professional career. That makes me want to punch myself and Tim in the face.
455
00:53:57.220 --> 00:54:16.749
Marion: So I think that the people that are doing the work, the people that are the thought leaders on LinkedIn, that are contributing to our podcast, that are sharing all of their gifts and skills, I want to see that continue, because we need that, and we have to continue to transform the world of work, because sure, I'm sure as shit aren't doing it, so we should do it.
456
00:54:17.390 --> 00:54:25.120
Cacha Dora: Yeah, I think, I think being able to make sure to have that balance of being present.
457
00:54:25.570 --> 00:54:41.320
Cacha Dora: but also not killing yourself with the reality of the news cycle that's going on. And I think that that is something that we need to do as humans, we need to do as leaders, we need to do as people who are in departments that take on a lot of weight.
458
00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:53.789
Cacha Dora: We need to know what's going on, but we also need to be able to draw boundaries, and have those boundaries be something that serve the people we help and serve us at the same time.
459
00:54:53.920 --> 00:55:10.430
Cacha Dora: I don't think boundary is a dirty word, and I think because of what we've had going on over the last couple years, socio… and the socio-political economic move… Moves that have happened, it's very easy to burn out there, not just on your job.
460
00:55:10.430 --> 00:55:11.350
Danny Gluch: So…
461
00:55:11.350 --> 00:55:12.300
Cacha Dora: I think…
462
00:55:12.560 --> 00:55:32.179
Cacha Dora: being aware isn't a bad thing, and I think also, like, there's a gift in being present. I think it'll help people be able to see the good things instead of only focusing on the things that have been negative or have been weighing them down, because the news cycles can be very much in that way. For me, it's about being present, but also
463
00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:36.390
Cacha Dora: Being able to actually take in things through a boundary line.
464
00:55:36.710 --> 00:55:38.490
Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely.
465
00:55:38.750 --> 00:55:39.410
Marion: Hmm.
466
00:55:40.050 --> 00:55:47.350
Danny Gluch: I don't know what I want to take into 2026. I… I'm really looking for…
467
00:55:47.890 --> 00:55:52.679
Danny Gluch: A deeper conversation, beyond trust.
468
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:54.120
Danny Gluch: Right? I…
469
00:55:54.250 --> 00:56:05.880
Danny Gluch: because everyone… trust is one of those, like, loaded words, where, you know, some people are like, no, trust has to be earned, and once trust is broken, it's done. And I feel like we… we need something that's…
470
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Danny Gluch: that can live a little bit better in the average workplace. And I don't know if it's charity or generosity, but something where people can bring this attitude
471
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Danny Gluch: so that the people they work with have that feeling where they're free-range workers, right? Just whatever it is, I want that conversation to go further so that we can actually, like.
472
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Danny Gluch: Pin down what it is that helps people feel…
473
00:56:34.430 --> 00:56:40.769
Danny Gluch: less like battery hens. Gosh, that is another one of those oh-shit moments. Maybe you were right, Marion, maybe that's the one.
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Marion: I think so.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, that was such a good episode.
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Danny Gluch: Okay, well…
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Danny Gluch: Good luck to us in 2026. Thank you all for listening. This was such a fun experience. We are going to be taking a slight break, so we can all enjoy the holidays, and you can too. I'm sure there's a bunch of these episodes you all need to catch up on.
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Danny Gluch: Be sure to leave a comment on which one you did was your favorite episode, or which one you listened back to and really enjoyed and think others should listen to.
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Danny Gluch: Any last thoughts, Kasha or Marion?
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Marion: No, just… happy holidays.
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Danny Gluch: Enjoy the time, be present, as Kasha says, be with…
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Marion: Those that you love, and, eat lots of nice things, and, you know, let's do it all again next year.
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Cacha Dora: Yep, couldn't have said it better myself.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, and when you're with your time, with your family, being super present, be sure to like and subscribe the podcast feed and leave a 5-star review, because that's the most important thing, that's the reason for the whole season.
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Marion: Amen!
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Marion: Again, you guys can find us on LinkedIn, reach out to us if you have any ideas for great guests, or if you have an elephant you'd like us to address. Thank you all very much, we'll see you next year!
