The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Your Team is Already Neurodivergent — You Just Don’t Know It with Tara May
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Your team isn’t maybe neurodivergent.
It already is.
In this episode, we’re joined by Tara May, CEO of Aspiritech, to explore what it actually looks like to design workplaces that are welcoming by default—not just compliant when someone asks for help.
Tara leads a tech services company where more than 90% of the workforce is autistic, and she brings a deeply practical perspective on psychological safety, workplace design, return-to-office policies, and the real ROI of kindness.
This is not a conversation about awareness.
It’s about systems, trust, choice, and why most organisations are already behind the reality of their workforce.
If your organisation is redesigning offices, mandating returns, or struggling with retention and engagement—this episode matters.
Key takeaway:
Neurodivergence isn’t an edge case. It’s a design reality.
👤 About Our Guest
Tara May is CEO of Aspiritech, a mission-driven tech services company creating meaningful employment for autistic adults while delivering high-quality QA testing, accessibility testing, and data services. She is a recognised leader in the neurodiversity-at-work movement, serving as Co-Director of Neurowrx and on the strategic committee for HAAPE, advocating for neurodiversity and employment nationally and internationally.
With more than two decades of experience leading large-scale digital and cultural transformations across media and technology, Tara brings a rare combination of business rigour and human-centred leadership. She is also a parent of an autistic child and a vocal champion of the belief that when people thrive, business growth follows.
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🚀 Your Hosts on LinkedIn
- 🐘 Marion Anderson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/marionandersonpx
- 🐘 Danny Gluch — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgluch
- 🐘 Cacha Dora — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cachadora
💬 Like what you hear?
Follow/subscribe so you don’t miss an episode — and if this one hit home, leave a ★★★★★ review to help more people find the show.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024 — fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
Topics: employee surveys, listening culture, trust, people analytics, psychological safety, employee voice, ...
Quick truth before we start: your team is already neurodivergent.
Not ‘might be.’ Not ‘in a few years.’ Already.
And the real elephant is this: most workplaces are still designed like neurodivergence is a rare edge case… instead of the very normal reality of humans having wildly different brains, needs, and thresholds.
In this episode, we’re talking with Tara May, CEO of Aspiritech—a tech services company where about 93% of the team is autistic—and someone who’s spent decades leading large-scale transformations in media and technology.
Tara doesn’t talk about inclusion as a slogan. She talks about workplace design, psychological safety, and what she calls the return on kindness.
You’ll hear why ‘universal design’ often breaks down in real life, why choice matters more than one-size-fits-all solutions, and why one of the most powerful questions any leader can ask is simply:
‘What do you need to be successful at work?’
No diagnosis required. No performance theatre. Just trust.
So if your organisation is rethinking office space, pushing return-to-office, or quietly losing people who don’t fit the mould—this conversation matters.
This is The Elephant in the Org. I’m Marion Anderson.
Season 3, Episode 15: ‘Your Team is Already Neurodivergent — You Just Don’t Know It with Tara May.’
Let’s get into it.”
00:00:03.290 --> 00:00:08.880
Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the Elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Dani Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-host, Cacha Dora.
2
00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.230
Cacha Dora: Hello
3
00:00:10.230 --> 00:00:11.760
Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
4
00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:15.999
Marion: Oh, I got relegated again to second. Good morning, hello.
5
00:00:17.460 --> 00:00:23.450
Cacha Dora: I don't even remember what the flow was anymore.
6
00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:31.870
Danny Gluch: We don't do introductions in a hierarchy, you should know that. Otherwise, we would do our guests first, of all things.
7
00:00:33.830 --> 00:00:34.880
Danny Gluch: As we should.
8
00:00:35.030 --> 00:00:44.579
Danny Gluch: Yeah, so we do have a fantastic guest today from Aspiritech, Tara May. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us about, tell us about yourself.
9
00:00:45.080 --> 00:01:00.650
Tara May: Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. I'm Tara, I'm CEO of an organization called Aspiritech, which is really sort of a crazy, unique company. We have, 100 team members, and of those 100 team members, about 93% are autistic.
10
00:01:00.650 --> 00:01:13.019
Tara May: So, we are passionate not only about tech services, which is what we do, but about creating workplaces where everyone can thrive and reach their fullest potential, and I take that advocacy with me and
11
00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:22.310
Tara May: pretty much everything I do as a mom, as a board member, as a leader, it is… it is something I am incredibly passionate about.
12
00:01:22.990 --> 00:01:24.220
Danny Gluch: That's fantastic.
13
00:01:24.220 --> 00:01:26.199
Cacha Dora: So excited to have those conversations today.
14
00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:32.090
Danny Gluch: Yeah, the reason that we had you on is the elephant in the org is that
15
00:01:32.350 --> 00:01:48.050
Danny Gluch: our teams are probably already neurodivergent. We should not pretend that they're not, and we need to start building and designing teams with the thought that our teams are going to include neurodivergence, rather than, like, there's a chance it may.
16
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:55.320
Danny Gluch: Tell us about what are the odds, what are the challenges of having neurodivergence inside of a team?
17
00:01:55.480 --> 00:02:02.639
Tara May: Well, let's first talk about the odds for just a second, right? I mean, when we talk about neurodiversity, we are referring to
18
00:02:02.810 --> 00:02:10.789
Tara May: All of us. Every single human. Because all of us have brains that work differently and affect the way we experience the world.
19
00:02:10.820 --> 00:02:16.650
Tara May: About 80% of us are neurotypical, meaning our brains work roughly like everybody else's.
20
00:02:16.660 --> 00:02:33.550
Tara May: And then 20% of us are what's referred to as neurodivergent, meaning our brains work so far outside the box, we either put a name on it or a diagnosis on it, right? Autism, ADHD, OCD, PTSD, anxiety, these sorts of things. And…
21
00:02:33.550 --> 00:02:38.600
Tara May: When you take those statistics and apply them to an organization, that's 1 in 5.
22
00:02:38.600 --> 00:02:53.399
Tara May: So, if you have any sort of decent-sized organization, there's a high likelihood that you already have neurodivergent people on there, and certainly 100% likelihood that you have all kinds of thinkers, all kinds of brains.
23
00:02:53.400 --> 00:03:07.290
Tara May: And if we want to help our teams and our people be their best selves, their most productive selves, their happiest selves, their most innovative selves, wouldn't we want to be thinking about their brains and how to help best support them?
24
00:03:07.660 --> 00:03:09.259
Marion: You would think so, right?
25
00:03:09.260 --> 00:03:10.600
Danny Gluch: You would think so!
26
00:03:10.600 --> 00:03:11.580
Cacha Dora: I would think…
27
00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:12.590
Danny Gluch: married.
28
00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:13.990
Marion: Got it!
29
00:03:14.390 --> 00:03:15.229
Tara May: I know, do we, do we…
30
00:03:15.230 --> 00:03:16.670
Danny Gluch: He had the podcast there?
31
00:03:16.670 --> 00:03:20.050
Marion: Mic drop.
32
00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:30.880
Tara May: I'm a leadership management book junkie, right? As I presume many of you are after listening to your bios, and it struck me, after reading about 100 of these.
33
00:03:31.670 --> 00:03:49.870
Tara May: I had never once seen neurodiversity referred to in any of them, and I was like, what… why would we not be thinking about the way people learn and communicate and socialize? It seems like such a huge gap to me, to not think about it in the workplace.
34
00:03:50.410 --> 00:04:02.779
Marion: How did you… how did you get here? Like, how did you kind of reach this point, and what was the… the catalyst for you to create this amazing organization?
35
00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:25.150
Tara May: So, I think there's, you know, a professional catalyst, and there's a personal catalyst, as is often the case, right? The two are so intrinsically interwoven. But professionally, I started my career as a journalist. I was a crime reporter in Roswell, New Mexico, and that was fun, and we could have a whole podcast about that.
36
00:04:25.150 --> 00:04:29.510
Cacha Dora: Yeah, that sounds like a podcast series, just… premise.
37
00:04:29.510 --> 00:04:37.050
Tara May: That's right there. I actually, like, saw someone get shot on a Tuesday afternoon, like, real story. But anyway,
38
00:04:37.210 --> 00:04:44.690
Tara May: Being in print newspapers in the early aughts was watching the decline of an industry in real time, right?
39
00:04:45.130 --> 00:05:00.569
Tara May: So I really became involved in digital transformation and quickly rose to become an executive because there was such a gap in people that understood digital and leadership in the print environment. And so my entire career was wrapped up in
40
00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:18.499
Tara May: transformation, right? We called it digital transformation, but what I would say to my fellow executives is that this is really cultural transformation. If you do not convince people why we need to change, they will go kicking and screaming, and that is not going to facilitate organizational change, right?
41
00:05:19.080 --> 00:05:23.989
Tara May: And so I became really passionate about leading people with kindness.
42
00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:39.710
Tara May: and the return on investment that could come from that, and the innovation and growth and transformation you could see in a way that companies need at this time, right? So that was my professional driver for sort of the way I wanted to lead organizations.
43
00:05:39.820 --> 00:05:57.980
Tara May: And then, of course, life intersects, and I had, my son's autism diagnosis happened in… I'm trying to do the math, like, really, really fast. It was 2015, right? And he was pre-verbal until he was 7.
44
00:05:58.140 --> 00:06:11.399
Tara May: And now, today, fast forward, I was just running to school to drop him and his twin off. He's a thriving 9th grader in 3 honors classes. And so I really got to see, up close and personal.
45
00:06:11.580 --> 00:06:18.370
Tara May: The capabilities of an autistic person when given the right supports.
46
00:06:18.400 --> 00:06:32.140
Tara May: I believe that the supports we were privileged enough to be able to give him, the fact that I am near obsessive and researched constantly… Actually, I'm diagnosed obsessive, so I should just go ahead and, like, wear that.
47
00:06:32.540 --> 00:06:50.530
Tara May: Right? And the school district that we live in, right, we're lucky enough to have these really intensive supports available to him that aren't in most classrooms. I got to see him come to thrive.
48
00:06:50.550 --> 00:07:03.739
Tara May: Right? And so it really became clear to me that it is not about changing the autistic individual. It is about the world we surround them in. And why wouldn't that also be true?
49
00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:05.219
Tara May: in the workplace.
50
00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:06.710
Marion: Mmm.
51
00:07:06.710 --> 00:07:16.669
Tara May: Right? Now, so just to, like, give credit where credit is due, I did not found Asperitech. Aspiritech was founded by two parents in the same position as me, and…
52
00:07:16.670 --> 00:07:29.050
Tara May: Fast forward 15 years, they came into their 70s and were ready to retire, and were searching for the right person to take over. And to me, I got to marry this, like, professional
53
00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.579
Tara May: belief system I have.
54
00:07:31.580 --> 00:07:33.830
Danny Gluch: With this personal ethos.
55
00:07:33.830 --> 00:07:37.380
Tara May: that I got to witness in real time, and…
56
00:07:37.380 --> 00:07:37.700
Marion: Hmm.
57
00:07:37.700 --> 00:07:42.720
Tara May: bring the two together. And really, I call myself often the luckiest CEO in the world.
58
00:07:42.940 --> 00:07:49.940
Cacha Dora: I mean, that's just a well of passion. You can't even… that's not something you can manufacture in any way.
59
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:51.830
Tara May: No, I had to live that for 30 years.
60
00:07:51.830 --> 00:07:58.730
Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah, no, but for real, like, I mean, the things that drive us as human beings can't be manufactured.
61
00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:00.870
Tara May: You have to have that fire.
62
00:08:01.690 --> 00:08:02.730
Marion: Mmm…
63
00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:14.740
Danny Gluch: So, I think one of the questions I have, and it's interesting that you, you brought up change management, and how, you know, this cultural shift towards the why.
64
00:08:15.570 --> 00:08:26.869
Danny Gluch: How could we communicate that to organizations in the same sort of, like, cultural shift, need shift, to being more inclusive for our neurodivergent workers?
65
00:08:27.470 --> 00:08:42.089
Danny Gluch: Sure. Why make this big shift in how we structure our workplaces, our workspaces, our workforce to be more… not even accommodating, right? Well, I don't even know what word to use.
66
00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:48.900
Tara May: Well, you're scared to use inclusive, because we can't talk about that word right now in 2025, right?
67
00:08:48.900 --> 00:08:51.989
Cacha Dora: Make it inviting? Is that the word? Is it inviting?
68
00:08:51.990 --> 00:09:00.180
Tara May: So the word we use, I will share with you, is welcoming, right? We try to be welcoming to the full breadth
69
00:09:00.280 --> 00:09:08.890
Tara May: of the human experience. And I think there are two reasons that we're really successful at that. One is that
70
00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:15.889
Tara May: When neurodivergent people Walk through a world that's not meant for them.
71
00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:19.220
Danny Gluch: And I think when you have that experience.
72
00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:34.169
Tara May: You don't want other people to have that experience, because you know what it feels like to be othered, and to not have a sense of belonging. And you know how invaluable that is to your identity and your happiness as a human.
73
00:09:34.310 --> 00:09:38.979
Marion: So we are able to create a really welcoming workplace.
74
00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:42.679
Tara May: Because we know what it's like when that doesn't happen.
75
00:09:42.930 --> 00:09:43.630
Tara May: Right?
76
00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:54.390
Tara May: I think that is really critical to our success. Now, why would other organizations like to mimic that welcoming environment?
77
00:09:54.490 --> 00:10:11.629
Tara May: That's why I use the term return on investment of kindness, right? And I think it is about kindness, because it isn't just about, inclusion, it isn't just about diversity, it isn't about equity, although I refuse to say any of those words are bad words, right?
78
00:10:11.630 --> 00:10:14.830
Marion: Yay! Woohoo!
79
00:10:14.830 --> 00:10:28.199
Tara May: But, it is true about being kind to absolutely everyone, because don't we all deserve that? We are all humans, first and foremost, after the layers and layers and layers of complexity that create identity.
80
00:10:28.490 --> 00:10:29.989
Tara May: At the core of it.
81
00:10:30.430 --> 00:10:36.179
Tara May: We are humans. Yeah. And we have as much shared as we do different, right?
82
00:10:37.340 --> 00:10:41.530
Tara May: So what's… what's the business return on sharing kindness with everyone?
83
00:10:43.660 --> 00:10:50.559
Tara May: The business return on sharing and kindness to everyone is a few things. One, it's retention.
84
00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:51.480
Marion: Right?
85
00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:52.180
Cacha Dora: atmosphere.
86
00:10:52.540 --> 00:11:05.460
Tara May: We have 99% year-over-year retention, and we only use 99% because it's impossible to say 100. We are really close to 100. Well, we all know turnover is expensive.
87
00:11:05.490 --> 00:11:16.830
Tara May: We know that turnover is costly to an organization in terms of hard dollars, as well as lost IP and lost time, right? So, just right there, you have a return.
88
00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:26.720
Tara May: Right? But then let's also talk about the return on productivity, right? Kasha, I think you were talking earlier about a study where there is incredible
89
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:36.419
Tara May: Productivity in neurodivergent team members But there's also incredibly great productivity in happy team members.
90
00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:37.370
Danny Gluch: Engage.
91
00:11:37.370 --> 00:11:37.990
Cacha Dora: S…
92
00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:39.229
Marion: Team members. Yep.
93
00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:50.110
Tara May: When you create a welcoming environment, oh gosh, people are happier and do more! Wow! What an obvious thing that has such an incredible hard return.
94
00:11:50.330 --> 00:11:51.130
Marion: Yeah.
95
00:11:51.130 --> 00:11:54.560
Tara May: Third point I'll make, and I could make a hundred, but I'll just make one more.
96
00:11:55.640 --> 00:12:01.920
Tara May: We require near-constant change and innovation at the pace of Gen AI in 2020.
97
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:07.920
Tara May: If you want that, you have to have team members that are willing to try new things.
98
00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:31.429
Tara May: And if you want them to try new things, it has to be okay when there is an inevitable failure that comes with trying new things. So what's the culture that you're creating when there is that inevitable failure? Are you pointing fingers? Are you casting blame? Are you creating shadows in your organization? Or are you lifting people up and saying, it's okay, let's try again, how do we fix it for next time?
99
00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:40.790
Tara May: That psychological safety, that feeling of welcoming, has to exist if you want to innovate at the pace you need to innovate in 2025.
100
00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:41.950
Danny Gluch: Okay, that's…
101
00:12:41.950 --> 00:12:49.570
Marion: Okay, and that was the mic drop moment, by the way. Yeah, I mean, you know… Stunning.
102
00:12:49.600 --> 00:13:07.270
Marion: You're singing our song. I mean, we say it very, very basically over, at the Fearless PX, but, you know, if your people are happy, they'll work harder, you'll make money. Like, it really is not rocket science, right? It's really absolutely, as we would say in Scotland, Billy Basic.
103
00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:09.000
Marion: And yet…
104
00:13:09.150 --> 00:13:15.540
Marion: We see… you get a lot of these, by the way, Tara. But yet, like, we still…
105
00:13:16.760 --> 00:13:22.859
Marion: fail to recognize it. Like, so I… I have… I've worked in and around tech for quite a long time now.
106
00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:31.700
Marion: And, you know, I got very interested recently, I think it might have been after or before we spoke, and around the same time, about
107
00:13:31.910 --> 00:13:46.330
Marion: I wonder if what data there is about the likelihood, or the… is there more people who would be considered as neurodivergent working in a tech environment due to the nature.
108
00:13:46.330 --> 00:13:46.770
Danny Gluch: feature of it.
109
00:13:46.770 --> 00:13:47.900
Marion: the job, right?
110
00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:48.920
Cacha Dora: Hmm?
111
00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:55.089
Marion: And it was a hunch, right? And so I started going down a research rabbit hole, as I do.
112
00:13:55.370 --> 00:14:14.779
Marion: And, you know, there's a bunch of different papers that certainly point in that direction, but because, obviously, people are less comfortable or psychologically safe to disclose whether, they are considered or can even consider themselves as neurodivergent, it's very hard to have hard and fast data.
113
00:14:15.230 --> 00:14:30.500
Marion: But, you know, it certainly all indicates that way. You know, tech likely does have a higher proportion of neurodivergent people, that, you know, than other jobs or other industries. But it also, the research
114
00:14:30.520 --> 00:14:40.669
Marion: To what you said earlier on, it under-recognizes the number, the volume of the likelihood of neurodivergent employees
115
00:14:40.990 --> 00:14:55.469
Marion: And, you know, the perception gap is absolutely massive. A data point I got, an employer self-report says that, minus 3% in UK tech for neurodivergence versus employee self-identification serve
116
00:14:55.470 --> 00:15:04.480
Marion: surveys suggesting up to 50% in some cases. Wow. So that disparity tells us something about visibility and stigma, right? Like, straight off the bat.
117
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:05.270
Cacha Dora: Completely.
118
00:15:05.900 --> 00:15:16.969
Marion: And the other thing, talking about the whole return to office crap, right? As you, you know, my research is in this area, and how,
119
00:15:17.270 --> 00:15:27.750
Marion: how companies go about, asking employees to either, you know, be in office, be remote, be hybrid, whatever, how that impacts psychological safety. And…
120
00:15:29.050 --> 00:15:38.830
Marion: Companies that are mandating, right, these returns not only are straight off not being inclusive, right, for obvious reasons.
121
00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:46.150
Marion: But when they are kind of saying, hey, but look, we've got these new offices, and they're great, and all of this.
122
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:53.080
Marion: No one's talking about, well, have you built space in those offices to support
123
00:15:53.190 --> 00:16:02.920
Marion: your employees that may have different accessibility needs, of which, you know, being neurodivergent is a huge part of that, right?
124
00:16:03.270 --> 00:16:06.879
Marion: And when I ask that question often, there's, like, crickets.
125
00:16:07.310 --> 00:16:08.130
Marion: Because they're not thinking.
126
00:16:08.130 --> 00:16:08.480
Danny Gluch: thinking about.
127
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:14.369
Marion: And so, like, it's wild that there's… this data is there.
128
00:16:14.970 --> 00:16:31.209
Marion: we know it's happening, and yet we're so not comfortable talking about it, or we're so ill-equipped to talk about it. You know, these things are not coming through in office design, in return-to-office strategies, like, all of that stuff.
129
00:16:31.430 --> 00:16:38.049
Marion: And I'm like… Why, people? Why? You know, this, this… Yeah, it's cool.
130
00:16:38.050 --> 00:16:40.799
Tara May: I can talk about why. I think I can talk about why.
131
00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:41.390
Marion: Yay!
132
00:16:41.390 --> 00:16:45.850
Tara May: Right? So I think we are going through a really…
133
00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:53.770
Tara May: critical transition right now, and transitions are hard, right? So, I think that you have…
134
00:16:54.260 --> 00:17:03.989
Tara May: an improving rate of diagnosis among children happening. And I say improving because, literally, that is what it is. We are getting better at diagnosis.
135
00:17:03.990 --> 00:17:04.839
Danny Gluch: for…
136
00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:05.510
Tara May: I'll give you.
137
00:17:05.510 --> 00:17:07.560
Cacha Dora: Boys and girls, because boys do.
138
00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:08.849
Tara May: I'm gonna talk about that.
139
00:17:08.849 --> 00:17:09.379
Cacha Dora: Yeah.
140
00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:14.910
Tara May: So, I'll give you a really great example. My dad is very severely dyslexic.
141
00:17:14.910 --> 00:17:15.290
Marion: Hmm.
142
00:17:15.290 --> 00:17:22.580
Tara May: His first diagnosis in 1965 was his kindergarten teacher telling his mother that he was stupid.
143
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.839
Tara May: And a truth…
144
00:17:25.179 --> 00:17:40.569
Tara May: that's what diagnosis looked like in the 60s and 70s, and 80s, and… you know, and he's not stupid, right? He is dyslexic. And I often find myself looking back and thinking.
145
00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:45.469
Tara May: Who could he have been? What… what could his world have looked like?
146
00:17:45.569 --> 00:17:50.649
Tara May: If instead of being called stupid, he was given the supports he needed to learn to read properly.
147
00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:52.250
Cacha Dora: Right?
148
00:17:52.840 --> 00:18:12.250
Tara May: And I give this example just to share that today, that same child, my dad, if he had been born today, would have probably been properly diagnosed, because we are much better at that today. And it's a story that tells you why diagnosis is so important, right?
149
00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:21.029
Tara May: And I often tell people after diagnosis, congratulations, because you are the same person you were the day before. You just know better how to support yourself.
150
00:18:21.610 --> 00:18:26.299
Tara May: So, why… why did I share that story at this moment? It's because.
151
00:18:26.300 --> 00:18:29.799
Marion: Diagnosis is causing the transition, right?
152
00:18:29.800 --> 00:18:34.370
Tara May: We're having more people be diagnosed, properly diagnosed, when
153
00:18:34.670 --> 00:18:52.020
Tara May: BIPOC humans were incredibly underdiagnosed for decades. Young girls were incredibly diagnosed for a long time. And when you are not diagnosed, you are left behind in terms of supports and resources, and that follows you
154
00:18:52.020 --> 00:19:09.629
Tara May: yes, into school and into the higher education environment, but it also follows you into adulthood and work, right? That lack of support and understanding what your brain and what your body needs to thrive. So this transition we're seeing is better diagnosis.
155
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:15.659
Tara May: In children, but therefore, we are seeing a lot of late-in-life diagnosed adults.
156
00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:16.390
Marion: Yes.
157
00:19:16.870 --> 00:19:28.820
Tara May: And so, all of a sudden, a conversation that wasn't even happening before is starting to bubble up, right? And people are starting to say, actually, I would like some supports.
158
00:19:28.820 --> 00:19:35.060
Marion: For my diagnosis, or my neurodivergency, or my unique way of experiencing the world.
159
00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:37.999
Tara May: But workplaces weren't equipped for that.
160
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:39.430
Marion: Yeah.
161
00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:39.790
Cacha Dora: Yeah.
162
00:19:39.790 --> 00:19:42.849
Tara May: And so, all of a sudden, those things
163
00:19:43.020 --> 00:19:58.530
Tara May: that could be so easy seems so out of reach, right? And Marion, you give a great example in the environments. So, building for neurodivergent people an office environment actually makes things better for everyone. You know who has an office is?
164
00:19:58.690 --> 00:20:10.529
Tara May: Everyone. Like, absolutely anyone who's like, I want to sit at this open office where everyone can hear me and see me every second of the day. Like, we all hate it. And so, therefore, we all hide in the spaces
165
00:20:10.530 --> 00:20:31.479
Tara May: you know, that are built for privacy, like, photo offices, like, I use… I mean, I remember being in an office, we're completely remote, so I've given up that, and I'm, like, a little triggered talking about it right now. But I remember fighting for those spaces, right? Like, walking around, looking for that place where you could actually have a phone call or work in peace, right?
166
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:31.929
Danny Gluch: Oh, yeah.
167
00:20:31.930 --> 00:20:48.999
Tara May: So I think we're in this moment of transition, where we're starting to recognize and value and talk about the need for neurodivergent support systems, but it is a transition, and that is hard. All transitions are hard.
168
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:50.750
Marion: And if you just called out…
169
00:20:50.910 --> 00:21:03.199
Marion: So I was just going to say, Kasia, before you jump in, I was just going to say, call out, we… we quote this again and again and again, but it's the most powerful… one of the most powerful sound bites that we took this summer from our Rethinkability series.
170
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:16.909
Marion: And it's from, Dr. Angela Young, and they said, you know, if you… if you build for the most marginalized, you include everyone. And I think what you just said just absolutely underpinned that.
171
00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:22.120
Marion: You know, think about who your most marginalized employees are.
172
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.429
Marion: Have them in mind as you build.
173
00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:26.469
Marion: Everyone's gonna win.
174
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:33.170
Tara May: Your marginalized communities, neurodivergent, people of color, women…
175
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:34.110
Marion: Yep.
176
00:21:34.110 --> 00:21:39.719
Tara May: Lower socioeconomic statuses, etc, act as canaries in the coal mine.
177
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:46.080
Tara May: They notice first. They feel the pain first.
178
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:52.410
Tara May: But you can make it better for absolutely everyone if you listen to them.
179
00:21:52.780 --> 00:21:53.430
Marion: Yeah.
180
00:21:53.580 --> 00:21:57.450
Tara May: And listening is a very powerful organizational tool.
181
00:22:00.120 --> 00:22:02.400
Danny Gluch: Kasha, what were you gonna respond with?
182
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:12.059
Cacha Dora: I was gonna say, some of the things that both, Marianne and Tara were… were mentioning when we're thinking about the spaces that we're in, right? Like, we… we…
183
00:22:12.060 --> 00:22:22.000
Cacha Dora: Whether we like it or not, we work and live in an ableist society. It's how our society is structured. So we have the systems that we live and work within. That part, kind of, I'm gonna say, is what it is.
184
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:32.890
Cacha Dora: But that's also where it changes, right? Because, like, there is the opportunity to expand your mindset, whether you are at an executive level, a people manager level, a team member level, whatever, wherever your level is.
185
00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:38.069
Cacha Dora: and shift that, and I think our workspaces are… are becoming…
186
00:22:38.370 --> 00:22:49.239
Cacha Dora: a focal point heavily because of these later-in-life diagnoses, right? Like, whether we like it or not, organizations have to acknowledge that the pandemic opened this door.
187
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:56.619
Cacha Dora: The pandemic opened the door for both these later-in-life diagnoses, thank you TikTok,
188
00:22:56.650 --> 00:23:11.069
Cacha Dora: And just call that spade, that spade. But, but also the return to office impact of, okay, you've gone from remote, you saw the wonder of that and how well you were able to work and thrive and beyond survive.
189
00:23:11.300 --> 00:23:26.659
Cacha Dora: And now you're going back to work, now with this knowledge, now with this diagnosis, right? So how many changes have happened within an individual or within a group at the same time? And not to get, like, nerdy, but that everyone's at different levels of that change.
190
00:23:26.830 --> 00:23:40.739
Cacha Dora: And our organizations, going right back to Marion's point, aren't equipped to handle it, and I find it so interesting because one of the things that I've seen an increase in is the conversation of universal design in our workspaces.
191
00:23:41.150 --> 00:24:00.720
Cacha Dora: to adjust for that, right? But again, like, how open and capable and welcoming and all of these action… mental actions are the organizations to employ those functions? Because I've had conversations of even, like, a conference room with these fluorescent lights can be really affecting people with
192
00:24:00.950 --> 00:24:11.280
Cacha Dora: Migraines, neurodiversity, people with eye issues. There's all these things that, like, when you think about all groups and not the group that you fit into.
193
00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:17.839
Cacha Dora: that universal design conversation starts to bubble, and it starts to happen more regularly. And I think…
194
00:24:18.090 --> 00:24:24.799
Cacha Dora: You can have a misstep, or you can actually have a really nice stride, depending on how you're approaching it.
195
00:24:24.800 --> 00:24:30.970
Tara May: So, Kasha, I think you make a couple really wonderful points. One is…
196
00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:33.359
Tara May: We have to meet the moment.
197
00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:34.290
Marion: Right?
198
00:24:34.330 --> 00:24:37.230
Tara May: We can't go back and undo
199
00:24:37.370 --> 00:24:43.259
Tara May: the society we created. We have to meet the moment right here, where it is.
200
00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:47.730
Tara May: But there's one fundamental premise that drives me.
201
00:24:48.870 --> 00:24:52.329
Tara May: When we know better, we can do better.
202
00:24:52.330 --> 00:24:53.180
Marion: Hmm.
203
00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:55.470
Tara May: Right? So, if…
204
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:02.469
Tara May: It's true that as a society, we're evolving, and we're getting better at diagnosis, and we're getting better
205
00:25:02.600 --> 00:25:22.329
Tara May: better at, demanding what we deserve in life and in the workplaces, and we've created communities like TikTok where we can share these experiences and talk about them, and the pandemic spurred change around so many institutional norms that needed to be challenged.
206
00:25:22.330 --> 00:25:26.080
Tara May: Well, that means now we know better, so we can do better.
207
00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:28.239
Tara May: We don't… Have to go back.
208
00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:29.920
Tara May: Right?
209
00:25:30.030 --> 00:25:30.860
Tara May: And…
210
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:47.249
Tara May: Is it easy? No. There are layers of complexity, and I think you make an excellent point about universal design, right? I'm always a little reticent to use that word, because when you're talking about humans and our vast complexities.
211
00:25:47.590 --> 00:26:02.429
Tara May: Universal is hard to find, right? You have people that prefer, less lighting, you have people that may need or prefer more lighting, and so Universal gets really hard. So we talk a lot about choice.
212
00:26:02.560 --> 00:26:20.379
Tara May: Right? So I'll give you a great example. At Aspiritech, we have tables set up with… and areas set up with different levels of lighting, right? And they might be nuanced to a neurotypical person, but to a neurodivergent person, they might be incredibly apparent.
213
00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:36.619
Tara May: And you can choose which area of lighting you sit in, right? We also provide a lot of information in advance about what a day or activity is going to look like, so you can choose whether that's for you or not for you.
214
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:49.199
Tara May: Right? And so, there's a lot of, a lot of talk about universal design, but I think at the heart of it is providing choice, right? Allowing for choice.
215
00:26:49.370 --> 00:26:50.330
Danny Gluch: ends.
216
00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:54.349
Tara May: That's a really critical part of being welcoming.
217
00:26:54.530 --> 00:26:57.590
Tara May: Right? Is allowing people choice.
218
00:26:58.030 --> 00:27:06.430
Danny Gluch: Yeah, choice, autonomy, that's all wrapped up with trust and safety and a feeling of welcome, and I think that that really, like.
219
00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:21.190
Danny Gluch: puts a good bow on it. What's the opposite feeling? If you're an organization where you can't say that people feel welcome to work here, what are the other feelings they have? Unwelcome? Like, who's gonna choose that one?
220
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:22.780
Tara May: People choose that all the time.
221
00:27:22.780 --> 00:27:24.910
Danny Gluch: Oh, no, I mean, I know they do.
222
00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:25.969
Tara May: They're fortunate, but they.
223
00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:26.830
Danny Gluch: Yeah.
224
00:27:26.850 --> 00:27:27.900
Tara May: They're just…
225
00:27:28.130 --> 00:27:39.209
Tara May: You even saw that. I mean, we see that with the tightening of the economy, right? Where these companies are almost making decisions that look like they want to drive people out, and
226
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:51.610
Tara May: I personally believe it's not just looking like that, that's what they want. They want people to leave, then they don't have to, you know, pay out severances, they don't have to deal with unemployment, etc. So, yeah, I think there are
227
00:27:51.620 --> 00:27:56.269
Tara May: There are a lot of people, I mean, politically, here in the U.S, we are…
228
00:27:56.490 --> 00:28:09.199
Tara May: striving to create an environment of unwelcomeness. Yeah. Other, right? And I think that's really sad and really unfortunate, but Danny, I think you hit it on… hit it on the nose.
229
00:28:09.990 --> 00:28:22.219
Danny Gluch: Yeah, I… yeah, I mean, you're right. I was trying to, like, assume that, like, no one's gonna actively choose to hit the unwelcome button, but you're right that they do, and they do it again and again and again.
230
00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:25.189
Cacha Dora: Elephants in one episode. Yeah, look at that.
231
00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:27.089
Marion: It was!
232
00:28:28.370 --> 00:28:42.479
Marion: Yeah, I had a… I had a thought about that recently, because I was thinking about that. I was thinking about corporate America, and I was thinking about how organizations… and what is an organization? It's a collective of people, right?
233
00:28:44.850 --> 00:28:57.130
Marion: When you speak to people on an individual basis, unless they're an absolute tyrant, they're generally good people, nice people, want good things, they're kind, they like to help other people.
234
00:28:57.330 --> 00:29:00.720
Marion: But somehow, when we become a collective.
235
00:29:01.080 --> 00:29:04.559
Marion: Of a massive scale,
236
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:22.619
Marion: we start to develop this weird, complete opposite, and we go in the opposite direction, and we're not helpful, and we're not kind, and we're not, you know, as an organization, as a collective. And now, that's a whole other conversation for another day, getting into groupthink and all of that.
237
00:29:22.870 --> 00:29:38.759
Marion: But when you… when you… when you apply that kind of rationale through this lens, and think about, you know, we're… we want to be kind as individuals, we want to be welcoming, but if we can't get our shit together as an organization of people, as a collective to do that.
238
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:53.889
Marion: Then, to your point, we're closing the doors, we're not opening, and we're not welcoming, right? And so, I'm really fascinated by that whole kind of, like, groupthink piece, and that collective piece, because
239
00:29:54.270 --> 00:29:57.699
Marion: We have to think about how to change that.
240
00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:10.720
Marion: And if we can find ways to change that, that's like the golden ticket to making all of this stuff fall into place. So, I mean, that's a whole PhD thesis on its own, right? No one… none of us have the answer for that.
241
00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:14.220
Marion: It's… it's one of those things I'm thinking a lot about at the moment.
242
00:30:14.810 --> 00:30:15.389
Tara May: But it…
243
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:23.400
Tara May: Yes, maybe it is a PhD and a thesis, but it's also action every single day, and if you.
244
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:24.130
Marion: Yeah.
245
00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:34.049
Tara May: leaders and employees who are trying to do that, right? That's how we're gonna figure out what works and what doesn't work, and…
246
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:43.910
Tara May: that's exactly what we try to build at Espirit, right? And do we have the answers? No. But do we have 20 years of…
247
00:30:44.170 --> 00:30:55.649
Tara May: collective data and anecdotes on, how to build a workplace where autistic people can thrive? Yes. And that's a good start, right?
248
00:30:56.270 --> 00:30:57.620
Cacha Dora: Incredible start.
249
00:30:57.620 --> 00:31:06.020
Tara May: We're one, right? But there are many. There are many organizations that have figured out what it looks like to be welcoming, right?
250
00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:08.339
Tara May: We have to strive…
251
00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:18.419
Tara May: toward that, right? We have to work toward that every day. And are we gonna get it perfect every step of the way? No, but, like, let's go, right?
252
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:19.620
Marion: Yeah.
253
00:31:19.620 --> 00:31:32.689
Danny Gluch: something I wanted to… right? You're talking about, you know, leadership, choosing to be welcoming, and choosing specifically to be welcoming in this way. And when you were talking earlier, you were saying that
254
00:31:32.910 --> 00:31:45.489
Danny Gluch: when you know different, you can act different. And I love that. And it's funny, there's, you know, there's still debates in philosophy about, if you don't know, can you act different? And I think that's one of the…
255
00:31:45.490 --> 00:31:52.989
Danny Gluch: the key points here is awareness. And we have all the this day of awareness, that day of awareness.
256
00:31:53.300 --> 00:31:54.210
Danny Gluch: And it…
257
00:31:54.640 --> 00:32:08.559
Danny Gluch: They seem to be a little hollow, like, people are aware. We know neurodivergent people exist. We know that they're in our organizations. Is… are awareness days and awareness months
258
00:32:08.800 --> 00:32:17.529
Danny Gluch: What are we doing? Is there something we need to get beyond? Because people are aware, and we're still hitting the unwelcome.
259
00:32:17.530 --> 00:32:19.650
Tara May: Every…
260
00:32:19.650 --> 00:32:22.390
Danny Gluch: Order before the stockholder meeting.
261
00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:35.700
Tara May: I'm a person of a torn mind about this, right? So, you know, I think, first, like, we as an organization celebrate Autism Acceptance Month. We do.
262
00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:36.420
Danny Gluch: Right?
263
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:47.789
Tara May: And we call it acceptance, not awareness, like, no, we exist, but, like, also, please accept us, right? And I think there's power in words. And you're talking to someone who's…
264
00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:55.100
Tara May: started their career as a journalist. So, I do fundamentally believe that information is power.
265
00:32:55.620 --> 00:32:57.010
Tara May: That you have…
266
00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:09.769
Tara May: to, as much as possible, educate yourself, inform yourself, understand things. Because when you do that, you start to accept people.
267
00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:22.460
Tara May: as they are, right? A lot of pushing away is ignorance and a lack of understanding, right? So I do believe in the power of awareness. I do believe in the…
268
00:33:22.900 --> 00:33:26.210
Tara May: Even bigger power of acceptance.
269
00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:35.219
Tara May: Holidays are… fine. I don't have any problem with them. They're just simply not enough, right?
270
00:33:35.570 --> 00:33:39.479
Tara May: So, here's the analogy I will give.
271
00:33:39.890 --> 00:33:47.129
Tara May: I am one of… you know, I think people are of two minds about New Year's Eve. They either love it or they hate it, right?
272
00:33:47.270 --> 00:33:49.890
Tara May: I am a person who loves New Year's Eve.
273
00:33:50.210 --> 00:33:51.620
Tara May: I love it.
274
00:33:51.830 --> 00:33:58.949
Tara May: Not because I go out and party, I don't. I'm in my 40s. I don't. Like, I'm done. I love New Year's Eve because
275
00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:06.320
Tara May: It is a moment when the world comes together and recognizes the passing of time.
276
00:34:07.010 --> 00:34:07.890
Marion: Hmm.
277
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:12.069
Tara May: And they say, yes, the days are a collective.
278
00:34:12.669 --> 00:34:13.679
Tara May: Right?
279
00:34:14.739 --> 00:34:17.949
Tara May: But this moment, we are all gonna say.
280
00:34:18.099 --> 00:34:29.009
Tara May: It's a new year, it's a fresh start. It does not mean the other 365 days of the year don't matter. It means we are coming together in this one moment.
281
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:30.969
Tara May: to celebrate.
282
00:34:30.969 --> 00:34:31.549
Danny Gluch: Hmm.
283
00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:38.610
Tara May: Each other, that we're alive, that we've made it through, and that we have another day to do it.
284
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:39.980
Tara May: Right?
285
00:34:40.940 --> 00:34:41.620
Tara May: And…
286
00:34:41.620 --> 00:34:42.550
Marion: Gorgeous.
287
00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:43.029
Tara May: I love…
288
00:34:43.030 --> 00:34:45.549
Marion: Very romantic, I love that.
289
00:34:45.550 --> 00:34:52.339
Tara May: I'm a little bit of a… I'm a Pisces, so I'm a little bit of a romantic, person. I don't know what that means.
290
00:34:55.989 --> 00:35:06.459
Tara May: My husband often points out, he's like, you are the most pragmatic, practical person I know, and yet you read your horoscope every day, and he cannot reconcile those two things.
291
00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:09.779
Cacha Dora: Nothing wrong with wanting a little bit of starry magic.
292
00:35:10.330 --> 00:35:13.330
Cacha Dora: We grew up watching Charmed and Buffy.
293
00:35:13.330 --> 00:35:16.740
Tara May: At the point of life, there's not a little bit of magic.
294
00:35:16.990 --> 00:35:17.960
Marion: Hasha…
295
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:24.639
Cacha Dora: Kasha and I are all about the woo-woo, Danny's just about the woo. So, yeah.
296
00:35:24.890 --> 00:35:28.090
Cacha Dora: I wish you all could see it.
297
00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:28.530
Danny Gluch: Please!
298
00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:29.960
Cacha Dora: That's what I meant.
299
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:34.860
Tara May: When I said I was a Pisces, they weren't confused, they were like, yeah,
300
00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:40.540
Marion: We get it, we get it. Cash and Ira, we would consider ourselves a little witchy. Yeah, we would.
301
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:45.810
Tara May: All the best women are. All the best women are.
302
00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:58.960
Cacha Dora: But I think the thing is, though, like, when we look at all of those things, and I actually kind of love that you just even brought up just the concept of astrology, not because it's a moment in time or anything like that, but because it actually shows a lot of empathy.
303
00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:06.690
Cacha Dora: Because you could read any horoscope at any point in time, and there's empathy involved, right? Every single one…
304
00:36:06.690 --> 00:36:07.200
Tara May: Right, yeah?
305
00:36:07.200 --> 00:36:24.290
Cacha Dora: You could read one that's not your sign, and it could connect with you because of the empathy involved. And I think the environment that you've been building and that you are, maintaining and upholding at Aspiritech is… it speaks of empathy.
306
00:36:24.290 --> 00:36:27.350
Danny Gluch: And I think that that's something that organizations.
307
00:36:27.530 --> 00:36:29.800
Cacha Dora: Strive for, but struggle with.
308
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:30.429
Marion: Oh, yeah.
309
00:36:30.430 --> 00:36:30.860
Danny Gluch: Yeah.
310
00:36:31.230 --> 00:36:31.800
Cacha Dora: You know what I mean?
311
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:41.339
Tara May: Right? Like, I strive, empathetic person, and then I can find myself, you know, like, veering toward judgy on accident, right? Yeah.
312
00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:42.440
Cacha Dora: Because you're human, right.
313
00:36:42.520 --> 00:36:56.190
Tara May: Because I am a… I'm a wildly imperfect human, right? And so it's not about perfection, right? It's about progress, and it's about effort, right?
314
00:36:56.390 --> 00:37:15.150
Tara May: And are we making progress and effort toward being our best selves, toward being… allowing other humans to be their true selves, to creating that as humans and as organizations, right? Which is… is why…
315
00:37:15.830 --> 00:37:23.370
Tara May: You know, time and time again, we survey our team members every year about what
316
00:37:23.660 --> 00:37:36.889
Tara May: accommodations or supports are the most important to them? What to be their best selves in work? We ask all the time, right? And I think asking is really powerful. But time and time again, the most requested
317
00:37:37.310 --> 00:37:38.760
Tara May: accommodation.
318
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.510
Tara May: is kindness.
319
00:37:42.090 --> 00:37:43.430
Tara May: Even my husband went and…
320
00:37:43.430 --> 00:37:46.860
Marion: Over there, listening.
321
00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:51.180
Tara May: And it's free And it's so simple.
322
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.529
Tara May: Right? We try to make it so complicated, but it's not.
323
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:02.860
Tara May: It's just be kind and accept me exactly as I am, and I will try my best, despite my judgy self.
324
00:38:03.570 --> 00:38:05.349
Tara May: You exactly as you are.
325
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:07.010
Marion: Yeah.
326
00:38:07.010 --> 00:38:08.749
Danny Gluch: I find this button is so much bigger.
327
00:38:08.750 --> 00:38:11.219
Tara May: Oh, it's so much bigger. It's so much bigger!
328
00:38:11.220 --> 00:38:11.610
Cacha Dora: And luck.
329
00:38:11.610 --> 00:38:12.470
Marion: Oh, nice!
330
00:38:12.570 --> 00:38:23.020
Marion: It's not even the unkindness part of it. I truly believe that at our core, most people are kind and have really good hearts, right?
331
00:38:23.290 --> 00:38:25.190
Marion: But again, going back to that thing of.
332
00:38:26.050 --> 00:38:37.440
Marion: When we become a collective in an organization, shit gets in the way of that, and before you know it, bureaucracy and hierarchy and cost and all of these things.
333
00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:52.069
Marion: like, they turn down the volume on the kindness, and they… they amplify all the shit stuff that happens. Like, I'm thinking, as you're talking about accommodations, and I'm thinking about myself, my own experience,
334
00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:56.200
Marion: As someone with a disability, trying to get accommodations.
335
00:38:56.640 --> 00:39:03.789
Marion: has not always been easy, and yet the people I'm engaging with are super kind, and… and they want.
336
00:39:03.790 --> 00:39:05.020
Tara May: Finally!
337
00:39:05.020 --> 00:39:14.430
Marion: They are trying, but the bureaucracy and all the other crap gets in the way, and so again, I think until we can kind of, like, just, you know.
338
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:31.709
Marion: figure out how to navigate that. That will, by itself, allow the amplification of the kindness and the welcoming and the simplicity to shine through. And so I think that, you know, as a collective, we just make this overly complicated, to your point, and it really doesn't have to be.
339
00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:47.750
Danny Gluch: Yeah, and I think that you brought up a really great solution of this, which was asking. Because I think that there's sort of a dance that goes on with diagnosis, disclosure, accommodation, and like, oh no, it has to go in this order.
340
00:39:47.790 --> 00:40:00.330
Danny Gluch: And instead of just asking. And one of the things, this sort of, like, awareness and consciousness raising that you were talking about within organizations, I was always remembered of the…
341
00:40:00.470 --> 00:40:10.600
Danny Gluch: the 70s, there's the feminist consciousness-raising movement, and it was very intentional to get into small groups and talk and share experiences. And I wonder…
342
00:40:11.070 --> 00:40:21.660
Danny Gluch: a lot if organizations could have things like that just by asking. Asking teams, what accommodations, what helps you
343
00:40:22.550 --> 00:40:24.059
Danny Gluch: Be your best self at work.
344
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:41.589
Tara May: So I'll make two just, like, quick points on that, right? One is, yes, the power of community is absolutely incredible and awe-inspiring to see, and I see it at organizations both big and small, and employee resource groups are one of the most
345
00:40:41.890 --> 00:40:44.810
Tara May: Simple, free.
346
00:40:44.810 --> 00:41:07.539
Tara May: exercises that you can do to really be able to listen to different communities and create different communities within your organization. And the second thing I will say about asking is I speak out to HR teams a lot. We do neurodiversity training and consulting, and we have, you know, some L&D around that, and HR teams are often sort of the heart of it, right?
347
00:41:07.540 --> 00:41:21.470
Tara May: And HR teams professionals are taught a lot about legal boundaries, of course, you know, in the best possible way. And what I remind them, and almost every time I talk to them, this question comes up, right? Well.
348
00:41:21.470 --> 00:41:29.449
Tara May: what about diagnosis and privacy and HIPAA and da-da-da-da-da? And I say, you do not have to know anyone's diagnosis.
349
00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:32.899
Tara May: Or even if they have a diagnosis.
350
00:41:33.160 --> 00:41:40.279
Tara May: To simply say, what do you need to be the most successful version of yourself at work? What do you need?
351
00:41:41.370 --> 00:41:43.690
Danny Gluch: Yep. That's such a powerful question.
352
00:41:43.860 --> 00:41:45.499
Cacha Dora: Women trust their answer.
353
00:41:45.510 --> 00:41:46.560
Tara May: Trust their answers!
354
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:53.909
Danny Gluch: Oh, and I think that's such a big… talk about the feeling of welcome, trusting the answer versus, okay, now prove it.
355
00:41:54.150 --> 00:42:01.229
Danny Gluch: Yeah. Like, that changes the entire feeling of what it's like to be in that organization, on that team.
356
00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:05.109
Marion: It really does, it really does. As someone who's navigated that.
357
00:42:05.220 --> 00:42:12.639
Marion: The feeling that you have to prove yourself, especially if your disability is unseen, right?
358
00:42:13.620 --> 00:42:19.949
Marion: It's really hard, and so, yeah, just when people tell you what they need, just trust them.
359
00:42:20.120 --> 00:42:23.230
Cacha Dora: And then be kind. Trust them and be kind.
360
00:42:23.650 --> 00:42:24.210
Tara May: Backdrop!
361
00:42:24.950 --> 00:42:28.039
Danny Gluch: I think we solved everything. Did we solve it? I think we did cool.
362
00:42:28.040 --> 00:42:29.160
Cacha Dora: It happens.
363
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:30.090
Danny Gluch: Let's wrap this up.
364
00:42:32.220 --> 00:42:50.880
Danny Gluch: Oh my goodness, that was so amazing. Thank you so much for all of your insight. Is there any sort of, like, last, nugget or anecdote that you'd like to share that really can, help our listeners take to their organizations this feeling of welcomeness towards neurodivergence and just
365
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.919
Danny Gluch: Their employees and their organization in general.
366
00:42:54.190 --> 00:43:05.270
Tara May: So, I will actually just cite, our head of, inclusion and support here at Aspiratech. She's been here almost since the beginning, so nearly 18 years.
367
00:43:05.390 --> 00:43:13.820
Tara May: And she says, in 18 years, there has never been an ask that she couldn't make happen
368
00:43:13.930 --> 00:43:17.089
Tara May: For free, with a little bit of creativity.
369
00:43:17.180 --> 00:43:19.310
Danny Gluch: Ugh, right?
370
00:43:19.310 --> 00:43:29.310
Tara May: And so… 18 years of supporting autistic people with many, many needs, humans with many, many needs.
371
00:43:29.980 --> 00:43:37.329
Tara May: never been something she couldn't do with a little creativity. So, but besides that, I mean, Marion and Kasha, like, trust them and be kind.
372
00:43:37.330 --> 00:43:39.080
Marion: Right? Like, that's it.
373
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.210
Marion: Yeah.
374
00:43:40.210 --> 00:43:42.580
Danny Gluch: And be creative. That's…
375
00:43:42.960 --> 00:44:00.240
Danny Gluch: I like it. That's fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, everyone, for listening. You can find all of Tara's information in the show notes. Connect with her on LinkedIn. Connect with us on LinkedIn. Send us emails, leave us comments, let us know what elephants in the org you want us to take on next.
376
00:44:00.240 --> 00:44:08.050
Danny Gluch: Thank you, everyone. Be sure to subscribe, leave 5-star reviews, all that stuff that helps us get found by the Google machines, and now the whatever…
377
00:44:08.160 --> 00:44:18.389
Danny Gluch: AI, Skynet stuff that is going on with the search engines. We need help. Thank you very much, everybody. We'll see you next time. Mary's gonna edit that part out, don't worry.
