Episode 2 - Educational Leadership Insights with Principal Kristen St. Germain

Ever wonder what it takes to be an effective leader? Kristen St. Germain, the principal of Wheeler Middle/High School in North Stonington, CT, offers invaluable insights on our latest Linking Leaders podcast. Kristen believes patience, understanding, visibility, and a positive mindset are the hallmarks of effective leadership. She shares her unique growth strategies, emphasizing the importance of self-care for educators and the value of creating student-centered classrooms. 

Transcript

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Alicia Bowman: Good morning, Kristen. I'm thrilled to welcome Kristen, Saint Germain, principal of Wheeler, Middle High School in North Stonington, Connecticut to the linking leaders. Podcast she's the 2,023 Connecticut Association of Schools, high school principal of the year. So welcome. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

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Alicia Bowman: Kristen. I am kind of a podcast junkie. And recently I was listening to the leader chat with Jeff Rose and Tim Elmore, and they were talking about this concept of habitudes.

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Alicia Bowman: kind of combining the habits and the attitudes. that make leaders great. So, my, I guess my first question to you is, what qualities or habitits do you think make the best leaders leaders like you? Great?

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Kristen St. Germain: honestly, I I think

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Kristen St. Germain: patience and understanding is a big one, I think in this job you meet so many different people from so many different walks of life, and you can't really go in with expectations, because obviously people bring different things to the table. But as a leader I feel like my success probably is most attributed to the fact that I feel I'm a reflective person, and I listen. I think listening is key.

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Kristen St. Germain: I I will be honest. 12 years ago I was the listener that halfway through my listening I was thinking about my response, and I learned so much more about how you can't do that. You have to be totally present. You have to hear and listen and watch and be observant. So I think reflection is a big one. I also believe you've got to be visible, and you've got to let your parents, all your stakeholders know

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Kristen St. Germain: that you are there for them And sometimes that looks different. It looks like you're at a basketball game one night. It might be you're out, you know, in the Dunk tank for your middle school pride event. I I think it's just really important that teachers and families see that we're all in it together, and that I might be leading the school by name. But in we're all really a part of that process. So I think today's leaders have to have that mindset.

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Kristen St. Germain: I think mindset is everything being positive. and I think, lastly, it's it's more of a coaching mindset. I learned so much from my teachers and my students. how to be better and how to make this school better. So I think

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Alicia Bowman: really, those are probably the strongest attributes leaders need to be able to have today is just that mindset of anything's possible. How can I make it happen, and who do? I need to help me make it happen because we cannot do it all by ourselves. That's excellent. And really that idea. I love. The idea of the coaching mindset goes back to what you're saying about really listening and not being so worried about

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Alicia Bowman: what your next statement is, but really leaning into and just listening and asking great questions. So thank you.

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Alicia Bowman: So we know you're an accomplished leader. given your accolades that you receive this year. So what actions do you take to grow individually? What does that look like for you?

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Kristen St. Germain: I will be honest. I never miss a round table with my fellow principals. I think that is key, and I say that to all my teachers that are going for their administrative certificates, if you have those opportunities to collaborate with people in the same role, but not necessarily in your demographic, but outside doing the same things. they're my people. We joke during Covid, I think we met

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Kristen St. Germain: every single week to just say, Oh, my God, how are you doing with this? What are you doing to get kids to to log into their zoom. It was the best resource, I think, that's out there for new learners is is to engage in any activities that allow you to collaborate with other professionals that are doing the same job. Even if the demographics are totally different, there's so much you can learn from each other. So I would say

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Kristen St. Germain: for me, that's been my number one. I read a lot. I I try really hard to stay current with what's going on which is crazy, because every hour it changes. But I think I think it's important that educators, teachers, administrators, everyone is on top of what's what's coming down the pike and and just being ready for and asking the right questions. I also read outside of

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Kristen St. Germain: education. I think it's important to stay sane and have something to go to when you're feeling the stress, because stress is certainly a big part of this job. and being able to manage it, I think it's really important that people take care of themselves. I try to do, Yoga. I try to walk. I try to do things that allow me to decompress in my car, ride home. I do a lot of my thinking and reflection. I talk to myself on my audio so that I don't forget things, because that seems to be the hour that

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Kristen St. Germain: everything's on your mind, as you're escaping and driving away and trying to plan for the next day. So I think those are really important things to grow. But I I definitely would say, reading is a big piece of that, since my school, so different than than somebody else's. I think it's just important to know what's going on.

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Alicia Bowman: You mentioned the roundtable that you have, and I'm wondering if you could say a little bit more about that. is that a virtual meeting? And how frequent? And is it? other principles? Just so our listeners get a vision of kind of what that looks like. because similar to the concept of what we're trying to do here is linking leaders. It sounds like that's another way for you to stay connected, so

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Kristen St. Germain: can you just say a little more? Sure. So when I first started here, the roundtable meetings were all in person, and they rotated at different schools. We all took turns hosting them. There was probably

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Kristen St. Germain: one a month. where we you know the Ecc principals. That's kind of who's in my roundtable. It's high school principals in my area of the State of Connecticut. So there's about 18 schools that fit into the Ecc, so learn our, our actually organizes this for us. And then we just kind of set the agenda. And we talk about, you know.

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Kristen St. Germain: I think a week before we get an email. What do you want to put on the agenda? And we talk about things that are happening currently that we want to share with each other. During Covid we met virtually every single week we increased our meetings. I don't think we would have survived without.

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Kristen St. Germain: and some of these people have gone on to become some of my closest friends like I feel like I couldn't do the job without them.

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Kristen St. Germain: When I first started. I sat at this table. It was like, I'm not exaggerating. There must have been 18 to 20 of us, and most were male. So in the beginning there was like 3 or 4 females on that in that table. And that's expanded over the last 10 years, which has been really nice to see that demographic shift, in that there are a lot of females that are entering the world of administration.

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Kristen St. Germain: And I think that's a special bond that we also have fighting for that spot at the table and letting people know that we have opinions. And hopefully, people will listen. But they're really a great supportive group of people. I can't say enough about them. Thank you. Thank you for kind of

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Alicia Bowman: painting that picture. I appreciate it. So you talked about some of the ways that you continue to grow. So what's one new shift in education? That's kind of captured your attention recently, and maybe why

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Kristen St. Germain: I would say for me. It's the restorative approach to dealing with students, especially discipline and changing behaviors. My district just completed a 3 year training in with the concept of children who come to us with trauma.

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Kristen St. Germain: why they act out how, as educators, we need to be able to handle these children with trauma, and that number sadly, has increased significantly over the last 3 to 5 years. And that we we just can't do business as usual, and expect that this is where we're going to be, and everyone needs to be there. the whole concept of restorative is about really looking at behaviors that are happening. And instead of just

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putting a label like, Okay, well, you did that. You're suspended.

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Kristen St. Germain: That doesn't change the behavior. So 2 kids get in the fist fight in lunch room. You suspend them, they come back to school. If you haven't done the work to find out what's the conflict about, why are they at each other. I think they're you're just putting them back in the situation for that fight to most likely happen again. So we spend my assistant, Allison, Reyes and I spend a lot of time talking with students talking with parents. I feel like the job has really shifted in the last couple of years since we've done this training

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Kristen St. Germain: where we're really trying to get at. Why, a student is acting the way they're acting and what's happening at home, and what resources can we provide them to support them? To really get at what's causing this reaction instead of just reacting to it? It's become more of a we're looking at a little bit proactively now. And we can recognize, okay, something's happened in this family. Let's bring the teachers together and make sure they're aware. So I feel like

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Kristen St. Germain: communicating that information to my staff has become something that's changed a little bit. I feel like the more we know, the more we can support students who are struggling. So this whole restorative approach. It's it's a real shift, like there are people that think it's oh, no consequences. No one gets in trouble. That is not the case. There are consequences that go with it, but they're appropriate consequences. But

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the bigger piece is, what are we doing to change the behavior instead of just punishing a behavior and and the other real

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Alicia Bowman: confusion for people, as a consequence, isn't always a suspension or a detention. Sometimes a consequence could be sitting down with the teacher you've harmed, and having a very difficult conversation which puts that student in a situation where you harm somebody. You've got to

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Kristen St. Germain: fix that harm. What can we do? So I think it's just we have to educate people that it doesn't mean kids aren't held accountable. It just means we're digging a little bit deeper, and we're trying to get to the root so we can hopefully help students see their behavior so that they can want to change it. So I am grateful. We have done this work with the Joanne. From school, climate, and culture she has done amazing work. Her and her partner, Pat.

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Kristen St. Germain: have come in. They've trained our staff, they have met with students. It was a great, I think, initiative for North Stonington, and I really feel like the teachers have embraced it. They're having circles in their classroom. They're really spending more time talking to students to try to understand making relationships so that those behaviors don't necessarily continue to show, and that we can, as a as a team, change them together.

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Alicia Bowman: Excellent! Excellent! Thank you so much.

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Alicia Bowman: so, Kristen. We know those of us who who know you. We know your self professed doer With an aversion to being idle But our leaders are wondering, how do you find the time? Fill in the blank? So could you share, maybe, like

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Alicia Bowman: one or 2 strategies for successfully managing the many roles that you have, personal and professional with our listeners so kind of maybe like an administrator hack or something that you found that helps you over the years.

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Kristen St. Germain: I think most importantly, you have to do what works for you. I think I think everybody has their little things that they do like. I am a person that enjoys

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Kristen St. Germain: my job. I love it. I don't want it to end when I walk out the door. I'm always thinking about it. And so I'm a person that doesn't mind going home and working at night and collaborating with my colleagues, and you know I know not. That's not for everybody. So I think, knowing who you're working for is a big piece of that But I try to balance as much as I can. As a teacher. I struggled in the beginning I taught for 18 years, and I was correcting till all hours of the night. I was an English teacher, and you know I would be up at midnight, and my husband would be like, Okay, is this really what this is going to look like? And and it really was. And then I started to learn, as I did the job. You know, what? Instead of during my plan or my prep going and checking on my neighbor, and chatting about things, to try to schedule myself a little bit better, so, as a principal, I schedule my evaluations, and I really stick to that.

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Kristen St. Germain: I break them out over the year. I remember the frustrations as being a teacher when an administrator would say, Oh, I'm going to be in, and then they didn't come. So I try to stick to that, and I let my staff know this is the month I have you down. You don't know when I'm coming, but I want you to know I will be in your classroom. I think, taking care of yourself mentally and emotionally, is also equally important. I think, having a person to talk to for me, my husband is that he's the person that I don't think he's met a lot of the people, but I think he knows him as well as I do.

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Kristen St. Germain: My colleague Allison, and I, I think, being in a in the profession with somebody you really respect and value is also really important. Finding the people that bring the best out of you, I think, is key, and and you know, in every school building you have negativity, and you have people that sometimes tend to thrive on that. And I try really hard to not just remove myself, but to try to get to know why. You know that negativity exists, and to try to do something to connect to those people so that

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Kristen St. Germain: I can eventually maybe break that negativity, or at least understand where they're coming from. But, honestly, I just think it's it's what works for you. I am an a brain person. I like list. I like to check things off. I like to schedule my daughter's going into the profession, and I'm trying to tell her, you know, if you want to survive. I was a teacher. You can't just fly by the sea to your pants. You have to. You have to be able to at least envision your week, plan it.

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Kristen St. Germain: and kind of set those little goals for yourself, and then you you start to feel more accomplished as you hit those items. So. But I do really believe it's what works for some people. I think people have very different habits. But I'm a do where you are correct. I I can physically retire in 7 years, and my family is already told me. You cannot, Mom, what are you going to do like? There's no way you have to do something else, or you have to stay in it. So I think it's just what works for people.

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Alicia Bowman: Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you honoring that because we

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Alicia Bowman: we know that our faculty and staff look to us, they're kind of watching the leaders every move. And so being able to say, This is what works for me. But something else might might work for you also, taking with you. You know that importance of telling people when you're going to show up showing up and protecting that time, because we also know there'll always be urgent matters some more urgent than others, and you could fill your day doing those things.

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Kristen St. Germain: and believe me, there are times I can't physically show up, but I am always. I'm sorry. I I promise this is, I would never not do this unless something obviously important came up. But I think that communication is also key is letting people know. This is what I'm doing. This I just think, for all of our sake it's better to know

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Alicia Bowman: I would agree I would agree. So.

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Alicia Bowman: as I already told you, I love listening to. Podcast so that's one of my ways of learning and decompressing is kind of walking and listening, and then may just similar to you. Making some voice notes of what I heard. So recently, we heard an educational leader, Jethro Jones, mentioned that teachings kind of evolved from stage on the stage to guide on the side. And now people are describing it as the compass among us.

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Alicia Bowman: So I was just wondering what are your thoughts on that? Do you kind of? Do you agree with what Jones is, you know? saying? And if so, what does that mean to you, you know, as an educational leader or as the lead learner of

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Alicia Bowman: of Wheeler.

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Kristen St. Germain: I I 100% agree with Jones on that one, I think.

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Kristen St. Germain: based on my own experience in the classroom. I remember those T-shirts that moved around the room that had us doing activities that got us out of our seats, and then I remember the ones who didn't and I remember those classes feeling overwhelming and long, and losing my sense of concentration because I was trying to stay awake, or or whatever it was. I think it's so key to make school student centered. I think

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Kristen St. Germain: kids come to us with so many different strengths and weaknesses. I think the collaboration that exists in a student centered classroom teaches more than academics. I think

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Kristen St. Germain: you know, we're now in this world where phones have completely overtaken students. Attention, everything is online. Everything is technological. Everything is computer advanced. And I feel like those soft skills of eye contact and talking to your neighbor and having a difficult conversation, have gone to the wayside. So I think teachers who create classrooms that allow students to explore to wherever their strengths take them.

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Kristen St. Germain: I think that's ideal. We really push that here at Wheeler we try to get our staff away from the front of the room. We encourage students getting up and doing that same presentation. Why does it have to come from you like, give this power to your to the students in your room. I think that's where school is right now. I think if you don't operate your classrooms that way, you've got a small percentage of kids. You're not reaching at all, I think, in a classroom that moves in a classroom where

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Kristen St. Germain: kids are really doing the exploring. I think you're bringing a lot more people along with you, and I think it also highlights the ones that are struggling a little bit more so as a classroom teacher. Now, I would say, focus a little bit extra time and attention on that one that you're noticing is really struggling in that student centered classroom. So it's definitely a mind shift. There are still teachers that feel more comfortable at the front of the room and feel like I'm paid to be the teacher, shouldn't I be up there?

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Kristen St. Germain: And and really the reality of it is, I think teachers need to trust that there they can recognize who those kids are in the classroom that can do the same thing. You have to kind of give up the lead a little bit and be comfortable doing that, and I think that's the curve for people that learning curve of. Do I know they're gonna not let me down. And what if? And then, if they do, they do. I think that's where the teacher steps back in and takes over and says, Okay, that's not where we're going. But there's a certain sense of trust in that.

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and for some it's scary. But I've seen teachers who have embraced it, you know. We moved to a block schedule 2 years ago, and we knew, moving from a

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Kristen St. Germain: 48 min period to an 88 min period, was going to be a huge shift, and I can't be more proud of my staff. They've really embraced it. They've they've chunked their their 88 min into activities. we brought people in to help prepare them for that. So I think we're moving in that direction. But I think that's what school is going to look like. I think kids are going to be on their own pay soon, and I don't think you can stand up and deliver instruction with that mindset of kids going in different direction, I would agree. I would agree.

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Alicia Bowman: It's actually really exciting when you think about it. And when you're in those kinds of classrooms where you feel that buzz and energy and kids are moving, and it may feel a little bit like organized chaos, though it's not, it's most exciting. rooms to be in. So so Kristen. Are you ready for the ignite round. So we want you to en enlighten us at lightning speeds, and these are going to be a little bit faster. Alright!

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Alicia Bowman: So what's a book you think all cast members should read or listen to, that they might not have already heard of or

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Alicia Bowman: tell us who's inspiring you right now, and who you're following.

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Kristen St. Germain: I will say I'm I'm inspired by Brene Brown. A lot of the stuff that is out there from Rennet. Rene is like unbelievable. If you're a leader, I think it really exposes those feelings that leaders have about vulnerability. Yes, just my staff hate me and all of those things that when you're in charge you always have that fear going on, and you know, how are they going to react to me when I bring this up. And and what's my step?

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Kristen St. Germain: That's what we have meeting gonna be like. And who's who's not really paying attention? I think it allows you to feel it's okay to feel those that that that that's normal being vulnerable as a part of the job. So I would say, following that author definitely, and and the only other one I would mention is a couple of years ago I read Tara Westovers. book educated. It's a a true story. Obviously, her life of growing up

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Kristen St. Germain: and being kind of, I don't want to say kept from education, but having to fight to find it herself.

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Kristen St. Germain: And I just felt very inspired as an educator, and it was great. I had just finished reading the book, and I went to the Nias Conference in Boston, and she was actually speaking. So I got to hear her talk about her experience in person. But I think it just gives you a real perspective that everybody comes to our classroom with different.

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Kristen St. Germain: They're brought up differently. And respecting those differences and helping students get to where they want to be. And she was a fighter. Certainly she got to where she wanted to be, but certainly not without a lot of hardship and tragedy. But it's just one that stuck with me definitely

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Alicia Bowman: awesome. So if you are

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Alicia Bowman: to pick one or 2 of your best compression, so those kind of thoughts are saying that maybe we asked your faculty or staff, or your family, they'd say you said it over and over. What would you say they are?

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Kristen St. Germain: I think my staff would say that I am big on shared leadership. I talk all the time to them about. You know. The more leaders in the building the better the building. It's not just me. It's not just Allison and I like there are leaders all among us, and the more we step forward and get comfortable reading the better our our school is going to be. I'm also a family first person. I think there's a balance, and I think people need to trust that I mean it when I say your family is your product.

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Kristen St. Germain: and we'll help you in any way that we can. School obviously is important, but your family has to come first

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Alicia Bowman: awesome. So is there something about leadership that you've rethought recently?

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Kristen St. Germain:  oh, gosh! There's a lot of things. I would say

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Kristen St. Germain: honestly, technology and the advancements. I I you know I'm one of those persons that thought phones were terrible. We have to get them out of the classroom in the beginning. I was like.

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Kristen St. Germain: keep them away. But the reality of it is, they're not going away. And I and I changed my tune in. All right. Well, let's teach kids how to use them properly, and when's the time to use them? And when is not the time to use them? So I would definitely say, accountability and knowing that the world is not always going to be technologically based, and that you will have to be human on occasion. So I'm really rethinking my stance on that. I I

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Kristen St. Germain: like AI and phone, and we're going away, and we to adapt and embrace them and find ways to work with them that don't scare us. I think that's the one right there definitely scares me. But I think, and that goes back to being vulnerable to being able to see to your faculty and staff like. Listen, I'm rethinking this. You know how I I felt in the beginning, and and that's

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Alicia Bowman: part of you know an educator mindset is that we grow and we change, you know. so can you still don't like the guy who follows me in the grocery store. I don't like the little robot in the grocery store, that one I'm never given up you need. It's not highly effective, either. There's still spills, and there's a lot of things going on

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Alicia Bowman: so Kristen, can you share one thing? I know you've learned a time, but one thing you've learned from your Wheeler lions, your middle and high school level students with something they've taught you.

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Kristen St. Germain: Oh, God! So much! I just. I honestly feel love, I think, celebration of of who they are, and I I love that I know them, and I know them by name, and I know what they like, and I think the feeling when I go to a game, and they they appreciate that I'm there or that their teachers are there. I think

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Kristen St. Germain: that relationship thing is so important. And I've learned that this is a very small district, but I feel like it hasn't allowed me to embrace that, and really know everybody, from parents to siblings to teachers. So I I would say, that's what they've taught me the importance of really knowing people. Because I you know, I've been around leaders who don't know you, and they pretend they know you, or they try to do these little things

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Alicia Bowman: that act like they know you. But kids are smart. They know they know when I see them out front, and I say good morning to them. I use their name, and how much that means to them. Just the littlest thing like that. but I think just expressing that feeling and being able to is really important part of the job awesome. So you mentioned this a little bit. So when I say or when you think about AI and education, how does that make you feel like what you

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Kristen St. Germain: well, I was scared to death because I had a teacher who started to go down that rabbit hole and was sending me tech, saying, Have you seen this? Do you understand what kids can do? And and you know you listen to that. But then you explored a little bit yourself, and I went home, and I and I went on, and I, I'm a totally amazed about this whole concept of AI like my husband, who has his own business, has to write emails. He's always. Can you read this on?

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Can you tell me if it sounds right? He doesn't need me anymore? He can go in AI and say, type this letter and boom! It sounds beautiful. But what scares me about AI is? It's just another measure of that human piece going away. I think, for teachers. You can really look at it valuably. The lesson plans it can create for teachers who struggle with lesson. I think it's amazing. I'm actually our superintendent is having us read

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Kristen St. Germain: the Ultimate Guide to Artificial intelligence and Education, which you know, I think the the mindset of this one is, stop being afraid of it. It's here. Let's get it. Let's know what we need to worry about, and let's know how we can use it to better ourselves. But I still have that little fear of that whole soft skills going away, and

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Alicia Bowman: kids already struggle with eye contact and talking in front of a class, and really having that human connection, and you can't. Even in the book it says AI is never going to replace that human connection. And I just hope people understand it has to be a balance. It can't just all be AI. You have to be able to balance it.

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Alicia Bowman: figure it out together. So

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Alicia Bowman: before I let you go?

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Alicia Bowman: What's one thing? I should have asked you, Kristen, that I didn't.

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Kristen St. Germain: Oh,

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Kristen St. Germain: I would say

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Kristen St. Germain: what I think needs to change in education. Maybe, like I, I am excited. One of the things that I get to do with this title is like we' to go to Washington and and talk to some people there, and and I'm really hoping there's an opportunity to talk about what I feel is a little bit broken. when it comes to education, my teacher, certification. I watch my daughter, and she's, you know, going through these. Every

00:26:45.470 --> 00:27:09.360
Kristen St. Germain: college university has different standards for what teachers have to do but what she has to do. Double Major. She's in the classroom all like all the time, and it's great. I think that's the best hands on experience that you can get is to get kids in the classroom early. So they see, is this really something I want to do? but a lot of those teacher tasks that are designed to give that final certification do not match the programming

00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:33.520
Kristen St. Germain: and the training that these kids are getting. and I really think they need to change. I mean, my physics test for high school physics. You, you have to be a nuclear scientist to pass it. and luckily we had somebody who was in the field of science before she came to education. It's a struggle. We're all we all laugh about it. We can't get anybody certified to teach physics. Yet none of the content that's on the test is even taught in physics class in high school.

00:27:33.520 --> 00:27:58.079
Kristen St. Germain: So I think there are some broken things that really need to be looked at. and then my last one would just be the respecting teachers and and in the scale of professions. I feel like people do not realize how hard and how how heavy the job of teaching has become. And I just I wish that respect was there. And I don't know how to get it back, but I think it starts in Washington, and I think

00:27:58.270 --> 00:28:15.259
Alicia Bowman: we need to start getting people to make it a priority.

00:28:15.570 --> 00:28:26.870
Alicia Bowman: So, lastly, Kristen, where can leaders who are listening today go to find out more about you and your work? If they wanted to connect with you or or know more about Wheeler School. Where can they find you?

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Kristen St. Germain: I try to be very prevalent on social media. So I have a lot of social media accounts, whether it's real or principle. On Facebook. I have a Twitter and an Instagram week wheel or speaks out. I try to put things out there as often as I can for my own students, but also for parents and people just to be aware of what's going on. Also, I've done a lot of work with the Ecc student athletes, and we're trying to change and make our sporting

00:28:54.670 --> 00:29:15.429
Kristen St. Germain: atmospheres a little bit more friendly than they have become over the last decade. So the Ecc Diversity Council is another group that I'm involved with. I organize all the schools of the Ecc. We have students who come together, and we try to change the way sports are happening in the Ecc. We presented at the Cast Conference last spring, but I I think

00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:44.310
Kristen St. Germain: more so. Probably my social media accounts. I did write one article for Education Weekly, which I would love to do another just on the pandemic, and what it was like, and and how teachers were asked to become doctors and physicians, and and nutritionist, and we became that and definitely not what people originally sign up for. When they think I'm going to be a teacher in the classroom, we didn't realize the things that we were going to be doing. So. I would love to do more of that. But right now I would say my social media accounts.

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Alicia Bowman: Thank you. So, Kristen, we've made it to the end. So

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Alicia Bowman: thank you so much. Kristen St. Germain, principal of Wheeler Middle High School in North Stonington, Connecticut

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Alicia Bowman: and our Connecticut High School principal of the year. Thank you for this honest and lightning conversation. You definitely modeled Bernie's vulnerability. So thank you. I launched. The linking leaders. Podcast our goal is to connect great educational leaders from across our State just like you. And I'm confident that your humble leadership lessons will spark ideas, create conversation.

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Alicia Bowman: and inspire actions from colleagues throughout Connecticut.

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Alicia Bowman: So thank you, Kristen, thank you so very much. And to our listeners we'll see you next time for another conversation of linking leaders.

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Kristen St. Germain: Thank you.