It’s the final countdown! Kritter and Jessica have made it to the final chapters of The Hobbit (Chapters 14-19). Spoiler Alert- Smaug gets taken out by a new player, and the long-foreshadowed Battle of the Five Armies kicks off! Kritter and Jessica also talk about Thorin…like…a LOT!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
It’s the final countdown! Kritter and Jessica have made it to the final chapters of The Hobbit (Chapters 14-19). Spoiler Alert- Smaug gets taken out by a new player, and the long-foreshadowed Battle of the Five Armies kicks off! Kritter and Jessica also talk about Thorin…like…a LOT!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter.
Kritter:And I'm your host, Jessica, and we're kicking off this adventure with the Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica:And me as the Tolkien first-timer In this our sixth episode.
Kritter:We're going to discuss chapters 14 through 19. Before we dive in Jessica, how are you feeling?
Jessica:I would say that I was about as heightened as I could be. It was very, it was very tense. We left them off on the side of a mountain.
Kritter:Yeah, dragon elsewhere headed to.
Kritter:Lake Town Times are dire. That's just like where we are right now. But this is the last. This is the last part of the book. We're finishing the book today, so you know, you know, finally we're going to get some resolutions. Chapter 14, fire and Water. Last week we left the dwarves with gems in their pockets but a question in their minds where was the dragon? This week we find out, after we're introduced to a few men of the Lake Town which is called Esgaroth, apparently one of whom expressed a belief that lights they'd seen in the direction of the lonely mountain were not the dwarves conquering the dragon, but the marauding fire of the dragon himself, the only king under the mountain they had ever known. The dragon makes his appearance, though not everyone believed it was a dragon at first.
Kritter:Did anything stand out to you from the dragon's big entrance?
Jessica:Yes. So I thought it was neat to hear the Lake Town perspective of the occasional lights coming from under the mountain, because it emphasized how we left off in such a disconnected manner between our party at the mountain with the dwarves who have no idea where the heck the dragon got to, and now we're flashing to Lake Town folks who have no idea what's been going on in the mountain up to this point and are only catching these lights under the mountain as the only real clue that anything's happened.
Jessica:And then, of course, as the dragon makes his fearful appearance, they talk about. I think we alluded in the last episode to the construction of the town and how it seems to be built on piers out in the middle of the lake, and why, would you do that?
Jessica:And even then I said you know, even in the moment I was like I'm not sure I understand the strategic significance of doing that. Grante d I am not a strategic person in any way, shape or form. So at the beginning of this chapter they set it up where they talk about the cutting of the bridge to stop the dragon specifically. So I understand the idea of cutting the bridge to stop a ground force in some sort, but even in this moment, as the dragon is literally bearing down on the town, I'm like I don't understand how cutting the bridge is going to help you against the dragon.
Kritter:I don't know. I guess it kind of like maybe keeps their people in instead of letting them flee, even though they do kind of start to flee anyways. I found interesting this first part. I was trying to recall if we had had other passages where the POV is completely different. So, granted, we have the omnipotent narrator, he knows what people are thinking, he knows what people are saying or whatever. But almost without fail, we're getting Bilbo's perspective. If Bilbo goes down into a hole and is trading riddles with Gollum, we are not getting the dwarves and Gandalf and what they're up to. If Gandalf goes off to God knows where and does other things, we're not getting Gandalf's POV. We're sticking with Bilbo. So I'm trying to recall if we've ever not stuck with Bilbo, this whole book until now, and we're literally in Lake Town completely separate from Bilbo.
Jessica:So I think that's so interesting that you pointed out, because this last leg of the book I don't remember where I put that note, but somewhere in these next chapter or two I wrote that this is the first time the wording or the narrative felt clunky to me. And you pointing out that, generally speaking, even when we get our omnipotent narrator he's talking about Bilbo's POV completely just kind of validated. That for me it definitely feels like a voice change, because it feels like a perspective shift.
Kritter:Yeah, it's so different. And I was just trying to think the only other time that maybe that happened was when the butler and the head of the guards in the wood elves' land were drinking together, but even then it was almost like Bilbo was eavesdropping on them or something. That was the vibe that we got, so this definitely felt like the biggest shift narratively. And so it was kind of jarring because it's like let's put a pin in the dwarves that you've been with this whole time.
Jessica:We're going to go back to Lake Town.
Kritter:It's just like, oh, okay.
Jessica:Sure, I mean, to a certain extent, kudos to the writer, right. Because, the voice definitely changed.
Kritter:So true, yeah, yeah. So everyone's seeing the lake turn golden, right, the dragon's showing up, but everyone assumed that Thorin had conquered and this was their dream of the waters running with gold. It was such wishful thinking in this moment that I couldn't help but think bless their hearts, bless their hearts. And then Smaug comes in and he absolutely lays waste to Esgaroth right, and Bard had warned them that they were prepared in some way. I though. I'm just not a battles girly, that's just not my thing. So I'll ask you if any of the details of the fight stood out to you before the big finish.
Jessica:So, leading into the fight, the part that you're talking about joy was turned to dread was specifically iterated. Yeah, absolutely, I also struggle with battles. Yeah, okay.
Kritter:So we might have to start thinking about maybe next book.
Jessica:I'll try to be better. I will say that that's when they started talking about.
Jessica:The bridge to the land was thrown down to limit Smaug's approach, which the narrator supported, right, like they said that the lake was too deep or it would extinguish him if he tried to go through the lake. And I'm like, but dude, he can fly. I don't understand why we need to go through the lake. But okay, yeah, yeah. And then kind of the backhanded way that we're introduced to Bard you know, he's that dude that was proclaiming doom and dread. The grim.
Kritter:Yeah, yes, nobody likes him.
Jessica:He complains. Weapons are flung down, fires leaping from roof to roof, and again. Oh, and then that's when we find out that he's the descendant of the great lord of Dale Girion. Is it Girion or Girion?
Kritter:I have no idea, I don't know actually. No, no idea, Girion, no, Girion.
Jessica:Girion.
Kritter:I don't know.
Jessica:Truly, I couldn't tell you Anybody who takes the time to listen to this. I'm really sorry about my pronunciations. And then you know it talks about how Smaug really enjoyed the sport of town-baiting more than he had enjoyed anything for years, and that just sounds awful it does.
Kritter:I did so. Something that made me mad in this sequence was the master of the master, the master of the lake. He's trying to flee, he's trying to peace out in the middle of this calamity. But so we knew, though, that he was the calculating type, because that's how he was described in the last sequence of chapters, so this wasn't like a surprising thing. He wasn't ever going to be a hero, but he still just. We just know now that he sucks too. He's one of those leaders Somehow in this book. It's like everybody who is a leader or tried to be a leader. We've got the king of the elves right, who's beautiful and amazing, but also really greedy and kind of Except Elrond.
Jessica:I feel like Elrond is the only leader who has been portrayed in a positive light. Yeah, the rest of them are just like they're all crappy one way or the other.
Kritter:They are until somebody, until our boy Bard becomes a leader.
Kritter:But anyways because I ended up liking him. But so yeah, screw the master. So it turns out, the grim guy from the beginning of the chapter was Bard, descendant of the Lord of the Dale. He discovered he could talk to Thrushes. So we're getting into the climax here, the big climax of the fight. He can talk to Thrushes because with one arrow left, a special arrow this Thrush comes down to him and lets him know about the dragon's weak spot that Bilbo had discovered. He used his final lucky arrow, passed down from his ancestors, forged from the kings under the mountain, and struck. True, but the shriek that felled trees, deafened men and split stone Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. So this might be an unpopular opinion, but I found this to be sort of anticlimactic, like almost too easy. It felt too easy to me. A single arrow took down the dragon. What do you think?
Jessica:Well, I think that it's easy to think that it's a single arrow, but I feel as though they were shooting other things at him to just no avail.
Kritter:Yeah Well, absolutely they were. They were. There were tons of arrow, sorry arrow people. There were tons of bowmen trying to get after smog, but they were to no avail. There was steel scales and the gem encrusted belly. Nothing worked and I guess he like played it up a little bit with the arrow being his extra lucky arrow. That's never missed, that's like you know got a black shaft and all this other stuff. But I don't know, man, it was just like a first of all. This is the first time we're getting a POV that isn't Bilbo's. The person who slays the dragon is somebody we literally just met and he does it with one arrow, so that that part I kind of loved right.
Kritter:Okay.
Jessica:So again, last episode, I think I touched on the whole idea of it being a twist and I definite twist like that, you know the other part about this that kind of maybe resonated with me a little bit more. Not to take away from your point that it could feel anti-climactic. It's very David and Goliath to me. Okay, One man and an arrow versus this terrifying worm.
Kritter:Yeah.
Kritter:And he right on his side, everyone else is bailing, getting into boats and he's there with his arrow doing the dang thing. I, I, yeah, I get it, I guess I'm. Just. It subverts the hero expectation so much that every time I read it or anything or experience it, I'm like this feels so not what I expect, that I have to wrestle with it. Right, it's like I want Bilbo to be the one and, granted, bilbo is the reason it happens because he discovers the weak spot on the dragon but I just want him to be like the hero. Hero. But I've always had this like I don't want to call it a complaint, but I've always had this thing with the hobbit, where it's like I was expecting it to end when the dragon was slain.
Kritter:And that is not how it actually is, and so the way they split the movies up into three, right there are three. Hobbit movies and like doesn't the dragon die in the second movie? Yes, yeah. So to me it's like the whole thing, and actually this is so funny because our podcast is called but Are there Dragons? There are, but they're apparently not the most important thing, they're apparently not the big bad.
Kritter:They're apparently not the giant conflict and the real reason I started reading the Hobbit was because there was a dragon on the cover and then the dragon dies before the actual climax, Like isn't that weird, it is, it is.
Jessica:Yeah Me with me for a second.
Jessica:I feel like 12 year old Jessica, was right there with you, right, like dragon's gone. Bilbo even says it I don't know if it was this chapter or not, but like, as far as he's concerned, the job was done. Yeah, the dragon handled OK, like job done. That's what I signed up for. Yeah, I adult. Me Likes the fact that that's. That's not where the story ends, because, again not to be a downer, but anybody who's been through some really tough times a lot of times what you think is the big bad isn't the end of the story. Right, like, there's so much more. Those people's lives were devastated, they had no place to be Like, just because the dragon's dead doesn't mean all of their problems are solved. So there's a certain level of that that appeals to me as an adult, because it feels more real.
Kritter:I think I'm stuck. I think I'm stuck in like nine year old critters brain and you're allowed right.
Jessica:Like this is. This is a childhood story and it can stay encapsulated in that moment for you forever.
Kritter:And there's no harm.
Jessica:It can be that to you, and it can be this to me, and that's totally cool.
Kritter:Yeah, I do. I do like how it ends, but of course, still, it's like he's already dead, how there's still four chapters left. So it's fine, I'm fine, I'll be fine. I do love this book.
Jessica:She's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine.
Kritter:I love this book, but the dragon just it just you know, I would have, I could have handled more dragon, I could have done with a little more dragon is all I'm saying.
Jessica:And I do feel like Smog really sparkled on the page.
Kritter:He did.
Jessica:So it was kind of sad for him to be no more and on the screen.
Kritter:I'll be honest if we're talking about movies, like. He was the highlight of the movies for me and he was gone before the third one. So that's fine, we're, it's, everything's fine.
Jessica:But I will say again and some of this is happenstance right how we've decided to break up the chapters. So we I didn't really know, going into this that this was the chapter where Smog's already dead. So to your point. I'm like what's going to happen in the rest of the chapters, like he's already gone?
Kritter:My whole movie's worth of stuff. Apparently, if you ask Peter Jackson, it's stuff All right, so I guess we can continue. Sorry, rant over everyone, I'll be, fine, but do let me know you know, like somehow on Discord or in the comments on YouTube or something, if you agree with me, because I feel like I'm on to something. But it's an amazing book, whatever we got to move on.
Kritter:Ok, so the people of Esgaroth, with three quarters of their number, left more in the loss of their town and when Bard shows back up because they thought he died, they're completely ready to give him control over the town, over the cowardly master. But Bard rejects the impromptu appointment, wanting to get back to his roots in Dale. So how are you feeling about Bard right now?
Jessica:Honestly, I can completely relate to that and also, in that same breath, the master of Lake Town kind of turning things on its head and looking for someone to blame. It is such a slimy politician move that even if in that moment I was like Bard, why wouldn't you stick with these people? I'd be like, oh, I can see why you might want some space, yeah, yeah.
Kritter:So what you're alluding to? The master basically takes advantage of Bard being like, no, that's OK, and he twists the entire situation and casts the blame on the dwarfs. Is what he's doing? The only reason the dragon is here is because of the dwarfs, whatever, which turns everybody's eyes to the mountain, because that's where the treasure is. So Lake Town begins to rebuild. Oh, sorry, no, I skipped something. Word spreads of Smaug's, demise, because the birds are all over the place. We've as we've seen.
Kritter:And the elf king, thinking of the treasure, heads to the mountain, but he veers towards Lake Town when he receives pleas for help from Bard. This kind of surprised me, because the king is like, really into the gold and silver. Did that surprise you? It sounds like it did.
Jessica:I wrote seems awfully benevolent this time compared to last time. Yeah, and again. Just, I can't help but think that it's more of the greed situation, because even when we met the elves of the wood, it was said that they you know that he was a little greedy. So, that kind of has its own ick to go with it.
Kritter:But then he turned away, which was like kind of good for him, like maybe he's good and kind after all. You know, it's all these complicated leaders that we're getting in this book.
Jessica:Maybe dwarves just bring out the worst in him. You know, good point.
Kritter:Elves and dwarves, they've got a rivalry. What can you do? Yeah, so Lake Town begins to rebuild with the help of the elves. When the elves show up, though, no one dares to enter the waters where the dragon lays, despite the treasure beneath him, and the fighters of the town and of the elves take off for the mountain. So that's the end of the chapter. Any thoughts before we move on?
Jessica:Just you know the closing of that chapter is about Smog's body. You know there for ages his huge bones could be seen in calm weather and the ruined piles of the old town Like yeah.
Kritter:Yikes, crazy, it's giving creepy. Yeah, just, and also I feel like that that right there is, the is the making of like a really good story. You know ages past and people are like. I've heard rumors that there's, you know, treasure.
Jessica:The remains of the dragon and the remains of the town.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyways, okay. So chapter 15, the gathering of the clouds. So we're back with the dwarfs, we're back to what we're used to, and tons of birds have flown in from the south and gathered. A thrush shows up and tries to talk to them and Balin asks Bilbo if he can make any of it out. I really love this, because Bilbo says he can't make it out very well, but the narrator's like he can't, he can't make it out at all. Yeah, he has no idea what this word is saying Totally tattled on him.
Kritter:Yeah, so I haven't mentioned this in a while. I just want to reiterate how relatable Bilbo is. Yeah, yeah, you know I can't quite make it.
Jessica:So he's got a weird accent. You know, like it's a little hard for me to make out.
Kritter:I don't know why this tickled me so much, but I just it's like. I feel like that is exactly how I would have behaved in that situation. So Balin wishes that the thrush was a raven, because ravens and dwarves they go way back. Apparently, the thrush fetches a raven, an old, disc, decrepit, bald, nearly blind, huge raven, who tells them that smog is dead and that many other birds are gathering. So are we finally coming upon the Battle of the Five Armies that the narrator told us about many chapters ago?
Jessica:I do believe we are. Yes, I mean, can we just take a moment to talk about that? The bird is 153 years old and straight up, talks like doesn't talk raven. The narrator points out that Bilbo understands the raven because he's speaking in a regular language.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I love look. First of all magic, but then also the way they describe their relationship between the dwarves and the ravens and how they, like, came to know each other or whatever was that?
Kritter:it's so weird, it's so very real life, like real life ravens, because they're like we would give them trinkets to take to their nests and they would do favors for us, and people literally become friends with ravens and crows in real life by doing that. So it's like really cute. It's reflective of the real world. It's a little bit of magic that we actually have that is reflected in the books that have tons of magic. Yeah, so the raven recommends peace with the men of Dale. You know old bird wise though he notes it would likely cost Thorin in gold. Thorin responds angrily that no one will get his gold. Yeah, yeah. So he had me going there. When he, like he gave Bilbo the me thrill, reassured him about his share, I was like, okay, thorin's really getting.
Jessica:We're getting wisps and references to that very magnanimous Thorin that I think I made up. I think I made him up.
Kritter:Fake news, not real Thorin. This is Thorin. This is Thorin. He's like nobody gets my gold. This is my gold.
Jessica:The way that he doubles down on the whole ain't nobody touching my stuff really does not pass the vibe Check at all.
Kritter:Major Ick, that is like nothing else, even the guy who plays Thorin in the movies at this point isn't.
Jessica:Ick.
Kritter:Okay. So the dwarves and Bilbo went back to the mountain, fortified it and upon the rival, the arrival of the men of Dale and the wood elves, bard came to treat with Thorin, explaining who he was, what he had done and how Smough had taken from the people of Dale and Esgaroth. Thorin's reaction was disappointing, if not unexpected. Do you think this treasure fever the narrator keeps mentioning was why he acted like such a beehull? Or would he have acted that way regardless?
Jessica:I mean I'm not sure. It seems like narratively, there's a moment or two where he has shaken it off and been a better person. I did definitely write down here that even in the movies, this part here very much bothered me and felt like the greed overpowered his sense of right and wrong altogether.
Jessica:Thorin was represented as an honorable dwarf, and I think that there's no honor in not honoring your debt or acknowledging the fact that your actions caused the loss of the people in Lake Town Right, and to prioritize your own greed over that had never sat well with me. Yeah, so this is reiterated my disappointment in Thorin. Well and pretend oh yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, just versus how I had really thought that he was just such a swell like a gala had. You know what I mean? Yeah, like just a spotless hero.
Kritter:That's all. Yeah. So I feel like he just refuses to acknowledge that what the dragon did to Dale, right. So he's like this dragon came and took our gold, he took our mountain, he destroyed us, and it's and Bard's over here like yes, same, like same.
Jessica:Yes.
Kritter:And the dragon took everything from us. And so, now that I slayed the dragon, it feels like maybe we could come to some kind of an agreement that will make all of us as whole as we as we can be under the circumstances. And Thorin, just like you know, can't see it, don't, I don't get it, you, you mean nothing, your plight is dumb and I wait. Hmm, I don't like Thorin.
Jessica:And also, you know, to his credit, Thorin does mention it and I'm paraphrasing because I did not carry it through to my notes, like a doofus, you know, would you have felt the same if you came up to the mountain and we were dead? Would you have felt any compunction whatsoever, taking all of the gold? And Bard acknowledges him in that moment. You're right, that would be a different conversation, however, yeah, To your point, Kritter I think that you know there's a way through where everybody gets some healing, some means to rebuild.
Kritter:Yeah, some I'm trying to think of the legal term for it, but it's not coming to me. Some restitution there you go. Sorry, it's. Everybody needs to get a little piece of the pie, because the dragon took the whole pie, and the whole pie was not the dwarves, it was a combo wombo of the dwarves and the men.
Jessica:So anyways, that was a dumbest thing to do, and I mean not for nothing, yeah, but I hear you it carries, it carries your point. I do kind of look at it as partially on the dwarves for rousing the beast right Like.
Kritter:I Absolutely.
Jessica:I absolutely agree with you. Know, I didn't. I thought it was sleazy the way the master went about it, For sure. But it is directly, you know, related to what the dwarves were doing, that Lake Town was attacked.
Kritter:And Bilbo's accidental slip of the tongue. Yes, barrel rider, but you don't have to talk about that. Bilbo has done nothing wrong.
Jessica:Yes, bilbo is an innocent king. Yeah, and you know, in Bard's parting shot, as he, you know, tried to treat with Thorin, and Thorin wouldn" listening to him gather your wisdom, ere we return the way I phrase that.
Kritter:The way I phrase that in my outline was Bard essentially tells him to stop being such a stubborn turd. Yeah, yeah, that's obviously. Tolkien said it better. So, yeah, I'm on team Bard here.
Kritter:I feel like Bard is a newly impressive leader in this situation. Everything he says is very reasonable and even like Andy Serkis's version of Bard is. It's he sounds gallant, he's a little gruff, he's got like a gravelly voice, but even though Bard is supposed to be this like grisly dude, the words that he's saying are so reasonable that I refuse to believe that they come across as anything besides that. You know what I mean, cause, like I feel like Tolkien says you know like, oh, they gosh the way he phrases it, I can't remember it exactly, but it's basically like they're not the kindest words or something, but you know they did the job and it's like, yeah, you don't need to be kind in this situation, you just need to be practical, and Bard is just perfectly practical and I love that for him.
Kritter:So they came back a bit later and suggested that Bard and his contingent would get 12% of the horde. So let's talk contracts here. Your dwarves, we can, we can play your game, and that they call it even, and Thorin shot an arrow at them. Yeah yeah, Bard slayed the dragon, so 112 or 12% or whatever it was, it was 112.
Jessica:Okay, I think I would be rude to correct you, so I was going to correct you Corrected myself Um, they get.
Kritter:I feel like that's reasonable. What do you think?
Jessica:Seems like a good offer. I do think it's reasonable. The dragon is in fact dead. Those dwarves don't get Erebor scot free without Bard having killed Smaug, so I think that it's a no brainer.
Kritter:That seems obviously like a yes to me. I agree so with the arrow shot from Thorin heard around the world, the elves and men declare the mountain besieged and the dwarves dare not question Thorin, even though Fili Kili Bombur and Bilbo didn't necessarily agree with him. Any final thoughts on this chapter.
Jessica:I thought that it was kind of devious in a way that amped up the scary part, which is that the I believe that Elven King said we will bear no weapons against you, but we leave you to your gold, basically telling them that we might not chase you down in your mountain, but but we'll leave you stuck in there with nothing but your gold.
Kritter:You can starve. Yeah, essentially, yeah, yeah, it's so.
Jessica:And then the last part was that Bilbo is at. My last note is just Bilbo is all done with dwarves being besieged and cram. He's done with all of it.
Kritter:Perfect way to end the chapter. So chapter 16, a thief in the night, Thorin is newly and again obsessing over the Arken stone. He threatens anyone who might find it and think to withhold it from him, which naturally freaks Bilbo out because he's got the stone stashed in his pillow. So he thinks of a plan Bilbo takes over Bombur's watch one night and slips away to parlay with Bard. How are you feeling nervous, Do you think? Are you thinking this is going to pan out? This is going to work out?
Jessica:I am nervous. The interaction with Bombur was kind of sweet and again, any dialogue with Bombur that isn't centered around him being an inconvenience or a weight to be carried or don't speak up, you know, don't be a squeaky wheel. It was nice to have some interaction with Bombur that was genuine and not negative. And then also just another throwaway thing Bombur likes to go back to sleep because he's always trying to recapture the beautiful dreams he had when they were in the wood. Yeah, and I was like, oh, he really did like those dreams.
Kritter:It wasn't just because he was under the spell of the woods.
Jessica:But I can tell you honestly that when he left, I did not think he would come back. I thought he would just be gone.
Kritter:Bilbo.
Jessica:Yes, and I loved the way that he was confident and put himself up to the elves to get brought in front of the Elven King and Bard. I love that for him, that he is, you know, kind of owning himself and stepping right into it.
Kritter:Like I'm going to activate my negotiation you know whatever abilities here and just kind of, we're going to do this. So Bilbo tells Bard and the Elven King that Thorin's got allies on the way, Dain and his dwarves and that he wants everything to get ironed out, without violence, naturally. So he offers them the Arkenstone to use as leverage against Thorin. Did you expect this? I feel like I was partially like wow, you're just going to snitch on your friends in that way and like let them know about the strategy with Dain. But then also, yeah, no violence would be ideal. So I'm kind of torn on it. How are you?
Jessica:I'm OK with it, only because he went back to face the music and I know, that's probably weird, but I do think that it does feel a little bit like snitches get stitches right, Like yeah, yeah. But, also, it's really clear to Bilbo that the greed associated with the Arkenstone is next level and that it's the only way to hopefully negotiate a truce that involves no bloodshed. Yeah, so I can respect that and the rationalization that he created for himself. Like we'll call this my one, 14. I get it.
Kritter:Well, he even acknowledges too. He's like they ask if this is his to give, and he's like no, but like I'll leverage it against my one 14. Right Like yeah, yeah, he recognizes. Yeah, it's not mine, that's probably Thorin's.
Jessica:But so I, the whole thing I was a little bit kind of on the fence about, and I do think that he, you know, came at it with the right attitude. He's like, I assure you, he's quite ready to sit on a heap of gold and starve as long as you sit here. He knows, he knows his friend is fully prepared to be completely irrational. And then, finally, you know, I don't think I ought to leave my friends like this. After all we have gone through together and that completely redeemed the moment. If there was ever a time where I wasn't going to be comfortable with the Arkenstone decision, that completely redeemed it for me.
Kritter:Yeah, I can't say I don't know that I would have handled this situation in the same way at all. It was smart, but like and I think the Arkenstone was a really good play, but like telling them about Dane, I don't know that I would have done that. There's certain things that, like he learned in confidence that it's just I, it just I'm not sure. So I did love this. I think the King tells Bilbo he's more worthy to wear the armor of elf princes than many who have looked more comely in it. Like such a burn, right, like a fun, nice elf elfy burn.
Jessica:Yeah.
Kritter:Just like ouch man, like why do you have to say, why can't you just say I'm worthy and move on? So, anyways, bilbo, he's leaving the camp now because he's going to go back to the Dorbs for some reason Another decision I don't think I would have made personally. And Gandalf reveals himself. He's back, flourish of the cloak. We throw off the cake, whatever, I'm back. He compliments Bilbo and assures him that things are coming to an end soon and Bilbo might make it through. All right. He literally just got back and he's already got such chaotic energy, in my opinion. Are you happy to see Gandalf?
Jessica:Yes, Because, honestly, I think that as great a job as Bilbo has done, he has played all of his cards. And I think that we have finally hit a point where Bilbo really needs an ally.
Kritter:Yeah, especially because he's going back to the dwarves, which? Is something I'm like. I'm not sure, buddy. So he sneaks back to the mountain and goes to sleep dreaming of eggs and bacon Just had to bring that up Always with the food. Do you have any final thoughts on Chapter 16?
Jessica:No, I mean, that was really it. There was a line when he was negotiating with them where he says personally, I am tired of this whole affair.
Kritter:And I was like same buddy. Oh yeah, the dragon should have been the end of this. No kidding.
Jessica:Yes, and that was. I have that note up there. That took place in this chapter. Oh, there was one thing that the smart bird said. So the 153 year old Raven said to Thorin how shall you be fed without the friendship and the goodwill of the lands about you? So I am like even the magic bird is smarter than you right now, thorin.
Kritter:Yeah, he keeps saying like I don't know that I would advise that. But OK, everything that Thorin keeps doing, he's just like whatever man, I'll send your messages, all right. So, chapter 17, the clouds burst. So Bard comes to treat with Thorin the next day and reveals that he has the Arkenstone. It's a bargaining chip. Thorin is absolutely dumbfounded and demands to know where Bard got it. And, without missing a beat, bilbo confesses. It sounds to me like you would have done the same.
Jessica:Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know that I would have been brave enough to do the same. I just I have a high appreciation for him that he did it.
Kritter:I think, that there.
Jessica:I think that to be brave to your friends sometimes can be really hard. You know, like to tell your friends a thing that they really don't want to hear in a moment can be really, really hard, yeah, so I'm not sure if I was going to confess that easily, I would have gone back because of what happens immediately next.
Kritter:Like that seems like so obvious as to what Thorin was good. So basically I'll just say Thorin almost throws Bilbo off the wall, just like yeets him into oblivion, but but then Gandalf reveals himself and stops everything in his tracks but like, yeah, that seems like Bilbo had to know that's what Thorin was going to do, right.
Jessica:Yeah, but I think that Bilbo also. I mean, you know I'm I'm making assumptions, but I think that Bilbo comes from a place where he really believes that, you know, thorin is his friend and that he wouldn't actually do it. I don't know if I would have had that kind of faith.
Kritter:I would not have, from what, like? We haven't seen Thorn and Bilbo, you know having a heart-to-heart during sleepover parties. You know what I mean. Like to me, they're not friends, they are party members. They're fellow party members and that's it. But you know, like Hobbits are maybe a kinder folk than we are I think there's some lingering naivety there.
Jessica:That's really what I chalk it up to. That's fair. But, it says like Thorn shook him like a rabbit. And we know that he's so much smaller than them, than the dwarves, that the dwarves carry him Like. That sounds incredibly terrifying to be picked up and shook and then to be threatened to throw off the top of the battlement, whatever that they were on, Whatever it is.
Kritter:Yeah, so Gandalf's, like you should listen to Bilbo, and I wrote this down because I was terrible. But Thorin essentially says what have you to say, you descendant of rats? And I'm like whoa, Okay, the burns. They're flying in the sequence, I think. So Bilbo explains he had simply chosen his one fourteenth share, which to me feels really cheeky because he acknowledged that that was not something he had a claim to.
Kritter:So, Thorin, in a surprising twist, agrees to let him go and agrees to trade Bilbo's one fourteenth for the Arkenstone. But he's secretly thinking Dain might help him take the Arkenstone back before he has to part with any treasure. So at first I'm like, wow, he's letting him go. Wow, he's actually going to do the trade. And I'm like wow, no, he's not. He's planning to betray everyone. So the question of the book, I think is Thorin just the worst.
Jessica:I don't think he is. I just think that he's flawed. And that's a really hard thing to say because I've gone back and forth on Thorin specifically Of all the characters I thought were going to be hard for me in this read. Thorin was not my pick Really, but he really he has challenged me in my kind of comfortable perception I've had of him, based on everything else for so many years. I just think that he is truly flawed, but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad person, just like that would be true of you or I. I think that generally there is a strain of materialism that goes through dwarves and it is definitely exacerbated by the dragon horde.
Kritter:Yeah, the dragon sickness or whatever they've been calling it, the dragon fever, right? Yeah, that's what they've been calling it.
Jessica:The thing about this is when he agrees to let Bilbo go. It's the and no friendship of mine goes with him.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Just that, dig like that.
Kritter:Cutting him off.
Jessica:Knife through the heart, dude, that's harsh, even though Thorin kind of sucks. I feel like I'm saying that would be like as Bilbo, I'd be like heartbroken, you know, like okay, I came back to you because I thought we were friends To the point where Gandalf calls him out Gandalf's like you're not making a very splendid figure as king under the mountain.
Kritter:Yeah yeah, everyone's basically disgusted with Thorin at this point, just like bro. Chill, chill out, be reasonable. But of course not. But he's a dwarf and he's got the treasure. I get it Kind of, I guess. So, Dain the dwarf, Thorin's kin finally arrives, but Bard and the Elf King are not inclined to just let them into the mountain. So it was about to come to blows between dwarves, men and elves. As it was about to come to blows, winter thunder on a wild wind rolled, roaring up and rumbled in the mountain, and lightning lit its peak. The son of the Great Goblin and his armies, on the backs of wargs under a swarm of bats, descended upon the mountain. So, naturally, the men, elves and dwarves united conveniently and the battle of the five armies commenced. So, as I said before, I am not a battles girly. Anything stand out to you from this fight.
Jessica:Two things. We got to a point where, when Dain shows up with his dwarves, first off, Tolkien makes a point of pointing out that all the dwarves are carrying big burdens because they're very strong dwarves. So, they've got supplies, and so for me the implication is that if they make it into the lonely mountain, they can hunker down.
Kritter:Thorin's not going anywhere.
Jessica:Yeah, so if they let them through, they're going to make a squat and they're going to stay. The other thing is that at this point, Bard loses his chill and is ready to shoot back, but it's the Elven King who is the voice of reason, saying long will
Jessica:I tarry here ere I begin this war for gold. The Elven King is totally fine with just riding it out. And then the other part that I had was that Gandalf just magically appears between the parties and calls for a halt because we've got a real enemy coming. And I reread that at least three times and it really seems like he just appears between them out of nowhere.
Kritter:Here I am. It is Gandalf. Yeah, so he's our little magical. He's where he needs to be, essentially when he needs to be there. So, yeah, this is a battle. So at the end of the chapter, in the light of the sunset, as things were looking incredibly dire because this goblin army, it's big Bilbo caught sight of something in the distance. The Eagles were coming. So, as he cried out, also, that makes the Fifth Army right, the Eagles are the Fifth Army, correct?
Jessica:No, it was the Wild Wolves, the Goblins, men, elves, dwarves. So they were calling the Goblins and the Wargs as two separate armies, even though they were literally Okay.
Kritter:so I'm going to push back on that. I know I believe you, but the Goblins are riding the Wargs and we get a whole separate fleet of Eagles, so why would the Eagles not be the Fifth Army?
Jessica:I don't know, I'm just going by what I saw.
Kritter:No, I believe you, I totally believe you, because it did say they showed up, they started to clash and thus commenced the battle of the Five Armies, but I didn't know that they were like let's count them at any given point.
Jessica:No, I highlighted it, yep.
Kritter:Oh, please tell me. Fill me in. No, I want to know what it says.
Jessica:So it began, a battle that none had expected, and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were elves and men and dwarves.
Kritter:Mm-hmm Okay.
Jessica:Okay, and that's in this chapter actually.
Kritter:So we nailed it. I will say that. Another thing I would like people who are in my Discord or on YouTube and can leave a comment, Let me know if you think the Eagles are the true Fifth Army, Because that's what I think. Anyway, the Eagles show up and Bilbo's freaking out, crying, crying. The Eagles are coming. The Eagles are coming, and a rock falls from above and strikes him, knocking him out cold and thus ends the chapter.
Jessica:And thus ends the chapter. I just thought it was really fitting.
Kritter:So any final thoughts for the chapter before we move on.
Jessica:You know that foreshadowing that happened, whatever episode that was in, that has come to fruition. The Eagles have returned, in fact, for the Battle of the Five Armies. Tolkien delivered.
Kritter:He delivered like just the knots that are getting tied like the neat little bows. So chapter 18, the return journey, Bilbo wakes up and the battle is over. A man finds him and brings him down to the camp, to Gandalf, and he is ushered to Thorin's bedside. Thorin dying says to Bilbo I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my father's until the world is renewed. He wants to depart from Bilbo in friendship. And one of my favorite lines in the whole dang book says there is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly west, some courage and some wisdom blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. So I know I've talked a lot of crap about Thorin, but the fact that he said I think my favorite line in the entire book kind of redeems him. Like this scene to me kind of redeems him. How do you feel about him?
Jessica:I mean, I agree it's hard. It's amazing what kind of perspective imminent death will give you, not to be to mean about it. But you know, the only reason he doesn't sound to be born is if he died no.
Jessica:I mean, I truly believe that he would have gotten there eventually. But you know, perspective can escalate your timeline a little bit. And I do love the fact that you know he wants to part in friendship and I had the same thing highlighted and it's very sweet. And I think that Thorin, to me, is kind of representative of a lot of gruff male figures that I can relate to and I think maybe that's maybe that's why he's problematic, right. Yeah, Maybe I'm imbuing him with a little bit of that problematic nature, but that's what I think of when I think of Thorin. But at the end of the day I do still think that you know, there's a good dwarf underneath all of that. It's just that he's not always inclined to tap into that part.
Kritter:Yeah, and I thought we find out that where he gets very deep under the mountain with the archon stone on his breast, that felt very fitting because he cherished it so much. And we also found out, which made it feel again less like a kid's book. But Thorin wasn't the only one who died. Fili and Kili died, defending him until the very end because he was their uncle, like because of their relationship, and I thought that was very sad and just you know you don't always get kids' stories. Where kids' stories were, multiple protagonists die. How do you feel about this?
Jessica:I feel like, honestly, that it's speaking to the brotherhood you know, like the brothers in arms of you know you stand toe to toe with these men, and Fili and Kili were his only actual blood relatives, as far as I know in the party. So you know the book kind of did allude to that and then being, you know, in defense of his body. You know that read to me like while he was injured and waiting rescue, they were defending him in the last line of defense. Yeah, I think that that kind of. No, I don't consider it to be a kid's story.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Uh trope, but I think that it speaks to some of Tolkien's probably own personal experience of
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Brothers in arms.
Kritter:That's true. I know that, like that was, the idea behind the Hobbit was that you know, he's telling the story to his children. But in the end, I don't know that I would call it a kid's story. As an adult, I read it and loved it and I felt like the language was beautiful and the story had twists and turns and was unexpected and it was sad at times and it was poignant and had interesting perspective and there's just so much to it that, granted, as a kid, I loved it. I thought it was great and I kind of glossed over some of the deeper stuff that I'm picking up this time. Man, I would recommend this book to literally anyone of any age, as long as they're, like you know, eight or something, as long as they're like beyond little baby child. I just love it. I just love it so much and I'm so, so happy that I'm that we're finally like we read it all now because it's so good.
Jessica:I'm going to wait because I need to save what I'm going to say for later.
Kritter:Oh, yeah, yeah, True, okay, we got to keep talking about this. So let's see, while Bilbo was out, the battle still wasn't looking good for the good guys, even with the Eagles. But then Beorn showed up, which?
Kritter:I love Almost giant size and tip the scales. So I mentioned this before, like right before we transitioned chapters. But I love that everything came full circle. We got Beorn, we got the Eagles, we got the Goblins, the Wargs, the Elves, the Men, the Dwarves, Gandalf and the Hobbit. It's just all in this beautiful bow, no loose ends. Are you feeling satisfied with this? Like the way the battle ended up.
Jessica:Yeah, no, I loved it. And you know, Beorn killed the big bad. He killed Balg, who is Azog's son. Apparently we're finding out?
Kritter:Yeah, we're finding out.
Jessica:You know, Dain has crowned the bird chief as the king of all birds, which again was foretold earlier in the book. One last heartfelt moment for Thorin was that the Elven King returned, Orcrist, so that they could lay it on Thorin's grave, so like the Arkens tone. I just thought that that was beautiful. Yeah, in a closure moment, kind of a full circle moment.
Kritter:For sure. So Bilbo ends up refusing all reward except a chest of silver and a chest of gold. Would you have done the same? Yes, yeah, yeah, that's all. I need, I'm good.
Jessica:Yeah, what I could fit on my pony, absolutely Okay.
Kritter:Okay, I might have like grabbed a few, you know, accessories, like some jewelry, maybe a crown.
Jessica:I think the My thril and a chest of each is good.
Kritter:It's good. It's good, but is it great? You know, sure, it's good enough. Okay, so on the trip home, bilbo I love this regifts to the Elf King a silver and pearl necklace. Dain had given him basically his payment for all the thieving he had done in the Elf King's caves. So I kind of get it Like I hate feeling like I owe somebody. And the Elf King names him Elf Friend and blessed, calling him, oh, bilbo the Magnificent. So do you have a favorite title of Bilbo from this book? We've got Magnificent, elf Friend, barrel Rider, blessed Ring Wearer, luck Winner, stinging Fly. He's been called a lot. Do you have a favorite?
Jessica:I think I do. Actually, I'll have to go back up and find it. I think it was Marvelous, mr Baggins. It was after they found out about the ring but weren't mad at him and I just thought that that, for whatever reason, that vibe was perfect in that moment.
Kritter:Yeah, he's got that, he's got. He's a little Tricksy, Tricksy hobbit. That's a good one. I'd forgotten about that one. So during, let's see, during the, during the parting I put party and I was like that doesn't make sense. During the parting, the Elf King tells Gandalf, may you ever appear where you are most needed and least expected. So is this officially like Gandalf's vibe? Like I feel like that's exactly who he has been this whole time.
Jessica:It feels like a variation on the theme of a wizard appears exactly when he means to. It absolutely feels like a precursor to that, okay.
Kritter:Love that. That's so true. So on the mountain pass, they were originally captured by the goblins. Gandalf and Bilbo get one last look at the lonely mountain and Bilbo gets a little poetic. So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending. Any thoughts for the end of this chapter?
Jessica:Just that you know they. I love the fact that they go and they kind of have a victory tour. I love the fact that they refuse to go back into the wood, even though the Elven King invited them because, I feel like I would have done the same. Hard pass. I'm good. Not so much about the elves, definitely about the spiders.
Kritter:It's too soon.
Jessica:And that they go and they spend more time with Beorn, you know so Beorn has extended house guests with them for a while. I thought that was really lovely and that you know it talked briefly about how Beorn became important in the area and the area flourished. And then I have this quote that new peace came over the edge of the wilds, and I just thought that that was a really lovely sentiment. And it was early spring before they left.
Kritter:Beorns, mm, hmm, All right, chapter 19, the last stage. So Gandalf and Bilbo arrive at the last homely house on May 1st, so spring early summer, where Bilbo learned that Gandalf, along with a great council of the white wizards, had driven the necromancer from his hold in the south of Mirkwood. So that's what he was up to while he was away. Does this feel super random to you that this essentially happened off camera and we're just going to hear a little bit about it and nothing more?
Jessica:No, but I think only because I was lucky enough to catch the three mentions of the necromancer while we were doing this. Okay, and I don't think that if we weren't doing this kind of measured, considered reading pace that I would have caught it at all.
Kritter:Yeah, I think like does this fight happen in the movies? The necromancer fight?
Jessica:I don't know that it does. I'm curious to see if that's who they're referring to in the movies, and I thought that that was a fight that happened with Radagast, but we'll see.
Kritter:Yeah, we'll have to rewatch, because I feel like I mentioned this maybe in our first episode, that I recall like Galadriel maybe, and Gandalf maybe being in some kind of magical fight with somebody, but I vaguely recall it being like Sauron, so I you know some like figure of Sauron or something. I could be wrong, though. So the movies will be a fun little thing that I'm going to experience again.
Jessica:Yeah, I'm definitely going to be listening really closely to see if they say necromancer, because I don't remember it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means that I didn't pick up on it. And I'll be rewatching both. I'll be rewatching the cartoon and I'll be rewatching the Peter Jackson movies.
Kritter:I'm going to have to watch the cartoon for the first time, so that's going to be great. So after a nice rest in the house of Elrond, they continued on and they even stopped to pick up the trolls treasure that they had buried, which I thought was a nice touch. They eventually make it back to the Shire, back to Bilbo's house, and it turns out he was presumed dead and they were auctioning off his possessions. Anything stand out to you from this last little leg of the adventure.
Jessica:There was one very small exchange where Gandalf says there is a long road yet and Bilbo says but it is the last road For the last chapter. That was my favorite moment, just because it was another really simple throwaway moment. That was just so beautifully done.
Jessica:It carried the gravitas of all that had passed for both of those characters leading up to that. Without him, kind of woe is me saying I need to go home. It carried all of that as subtext. I just thought it was just simple and beautiful. And then the fun for us him coming home to being presumed dead and the terrible inconvenience of it all and the Sackville Baggins' slander that went with it, which I thought was hilarious. So again in the beginning I feel like we talked about the idea of every family has its tales and we talked about it in the context of somebody married a fairy somewhere along the way.
Jessica:And I feel like the Sackville Baggins' slander was the same thing. But just, you have it in every family. It's a nice touch.
Kritter:I also love that he became no longer quite respectable and he was just totally fine with that, like not even worried. He would have been so worried about it before he ever left on the trip. And now he's like now he writes poetry, he visits elves, he spoils his nieces and nephews and he's just living the life and I feel like he's earned it.
Jessica:And then the end is that the name of the story is there and back again a Hobbit's holiday, so the name is a little different. So I was a little thrown off by that.
Kritter:Well, the narrator is different, unless he writes it with an omnipotent narrator. You know what I mean. It would necessarily be slightly different because, again, unless he didn't write it from a first person perspective, which he wouldn't have to do necessarily. But then also our narrator talks about the real world. So there's no way that Bilbo, there's no way that there and back again, a Hobbit's holiday is the same as this book, because this book references vaguely things that Bilbo wouldn't know about. Gotcha, yeah, I think, yeah.
Jessica:Right, okay, no it tracks.
Kritter:So some years later, Balin and Gandalf show up at Bilbo's house. Balin, MVP dwarf.
Jessica:So he finds out.
Kritter:Bilbo finds out. Laketown is doing well, but the old master fell under the dragon sickness and ultimately starved to death. After fleeing with gold, Bard had given him Super brutal Serves him right. So you like that. We got this closure.
Jessica:Mm-hmm.
Kritter:Yeah, it's good, we're tying up all the loose ends. So the book ends with Gandalf and Bilbo talking about prophecies and whether Bilbo believes in them because he was a part of them. They're passing around the tobacco jar. Any final thoughts for this chapter?
Jessica:I love the fact that it came full circle and we ended just as cozy as we started.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I kind of I complained about the fact that it didn't end with Smaug, but if it would have ended with Smaug, we wouldn't have gotten like this. You know, which is a fun way to end it? It's a circle and you said it exactly right. So, yay, that's it. Can you believe we finished? That's it. I'm so proud of us. I'm so proud of us. I'm so proud of us. How about Airfive? Yes, okay.
Kritter:So, speaking of being done, next week we're going to be going live on our YouTube channel. Yes, we have a YouTube channel. On Tuesday, December 19th, starting at 8 pm central time, for a wrap party on but Are there Dragon, season one, we'll be talking final thoughts and overall impressions about the Hobbit before we embark on our next adventure, reading the Fellowship of the Ring, with Jessica as our Tolkien first timer and me as our LOTR vet. So, once again, thank you so much for tuning into episode six of season one, season one of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sedai and KritterXD me.
Kritter:Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok, and but Dragons Pod Just one T on X, formerly known as Twitter. You can also find me at KritterXD. Kritter with a K on YouTube, TikTok and X and Kritter underscore XD on Instagram. You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram and X. That's it for today. We are still workshopping catchphrases, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. But Dragons Pod signing off and may your beard never grow thin.
Jessica:Bye, bye.