But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 3: The One Where Eowyn Slays, Denethor Burns & Aragorn Brings it
Join Kritter and Jessica as the action rises through book 5 chapters 6 through 8. Dernhelm revealed! Denethor is done for! Aragorn saves so many! And we aren't even halfway yet, folks.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess. And we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as the Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter:Rings veteran and me as the Lord of the Rings first timer In this, our third episode of season four. We're going to discuss book five, chapters six through eight. Now, before we dive in, jessica, as always, what's new with you? Anything, anything happening. How are you feeling?
Jessica:I feel good. We had our WatCon time. It was a time to be had, it was wonderful, and now you know we're home and we're taking a breath and it sounds really silly, but it's my first time as a homeowner we are legitimately watching grass grow. We had grass planted and we are watching it grow. So that's what we're doing, because we're super cool.
Kritter:You know what I feel like. Samwise Gamgee would love to hear that. He would be fascinated. Do you know what kind of grass it is? Oh gosh, no, no, whatever kind.
Jessica:the landscaper thought we had really good odds at growing. It was a little rough back there so we called in professional help because I am not a Samwise. So I needed help. How about you? Well, I'm not a. Samwise, so I needed help. How about you?
Kritter:Well, I'm not a Samwise either. I still have a snake plant in my office that hasn't died yet and I've actually propagated it right, because that's one of the easiest plants you can propagate and that's the extent of my green thumb Literally I will kill it. I've killed cactuses before, legitimately, so yeah, I respect the landscapers for sure. I think Wat Con was amazing. I had such a good time. It's good to be home. Obviously, the con what do they call that? The come down off the con is rough right.
Jessica:Con drop.
Kritter:Con drop. Yeah, you feel like you're so revved up, and high on life all weekend and then you get home and it didn't help that I got home at like 1.30 am my time, which was 2.30 am con time because of some delays in my flight, so oh, that hurt on Monday, but it's fine. I'm fine now, so ready to talk about this, this here book, if you are sweet I am okay, let's dive in book five, chapter six, the battle of pelennor fields.
Kritter:But it was no orc chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon before the date that his master had set for it. Fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and that, and the world had turned against him. Victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, working great powers, king, ring wraith, lord of the nazgul, he many weapons. He left the gate and vanished. Was this our first Nazgul POV, and how did you feel about it?
Jessica:I think it was actually I think so. I have a note next to this section that you know said in the voice of like a TikTok audio. I didn't know it could do that, so I don't think I've made any bones about I didn't know that there was a Lord Nazgul, a king ringwraith, as it were. I did not know that they had anything in a hierarchy and then just the up and vanished. I was like, oh, excuse me, oh, we got skills.
Kritter:Okay, noted it's feeling very merge all from the wheel of time right, like they can disappear into shadows according to the lower. Yeah.
Kritter:I already had that from the Pelennor fields thing, which I won't go into, but I was like that name sounds very reminiscent and yeah grammar nerd in me, maybe, but starting a sentence, starting a chapter with but like, which is ironic because I guess our, our podcast name is butter their dragons, but but when I read that in this book, in this chapter, I was just kind of like surprised by the style because he hasn't really utilized it yet. But it was so good, right, because it was like the last we heard of him. It was the horns were blowing, there was a standoff with gandalf right, and then the horn started blowing right, and so we had to wait a week. But the next step was this but it was no or chief tan, so I don't know. I thought it was fun, I thought it was a cool way to phrase it, cool way to do it personally.
Jessica:Yeah, the next part I did not like as much because it talks about how they feed the Nazgul's ride and they nursed it with fell meats and I like just everything about that. Gave me the ick. Yeah, so kudos, because I'm sure that was the intention. I have no doubt that that was on purpose. Good job, yeah, very gross, super gross.
Kritter:Nazgul, creepy, powerful, intimidating, magical and gross. Yeah. So Théoden's company, who showed up, horns a-blazin', is just laying waste to those around him. When the Lord of the Nazgul shows up, Theoden's mount Snowmane, a black dart, having pierced him, fell on his side, pinning Theoden beneath him. And to add insult to injury, the Witch King's giant flying mount flew down and literally settled on Snowmane, claws digging in. So things are not looking good at all for Theoden or Snowmane. How are you feeling at this particular moment?
Jessica:My note says today's not a good day to be a horse chick.
Kritter:No, it's not. I'm so sorry.
Jessica:It's tough, it's definitely tough.
Kritter:Yeah, I don't there's not much else to say to that like yeah, I think my reaction, more than anything, was oof right. Can you imagine having a horse fall on you and then having a giant flying beast with a witch king on its back settle on you?
Kritter:you know what I mean like, like basically air out of my lungs Just reading, Just even thinking about how that felt. Also, during this confrontation, Mary had been thrown by his horse and he was blinded and sick with horror, so he also was not feeling good at this particular moment, Like this was not a good time for anyone around Theoden, Mary included. So the only one left to protect theoden was dirnhelm and we get the iconic exchange the nazgul threatens dirnhelm, declaring that no man could hinder him, and dirnhelm I did quotes, if you're only listening laughs declaring herself finally as Eowyn no man am I, she says, threatening to smite the Witch King living or dead if he touched Théoden. Amazement at this exchange brings Mary out of his terror. Did it do anything for you?
Jessica:It was incredible so I wrote completely iconic next to it no living man am I is just one of those scenes I had actually at one point done like a short story with you know that, as like the tag, like the twist, that you know no living man can touch me but all the wives are the ones that got the bad guy, kind of thing Ooh nice.
Jessica:So I love that particular twist. It resonates with me and so I loved reading it in the moment. It was just as majestic and I liked having the visuals of different media that I've consumed around it. But then the next part is the part where she empowers Mary, right, so the quote that I have there is it slow, kindled, the courage of his race that it was awoken. I love that line and that was just so like yes, because you know. You know that we love hobbits around here. We do.
Kritter:We do.
Jessica:We love us some hobbits, and so for her to be transformative for him in that moment was amazing. You know, everything about her revelation is iconic, and this just adds to that just adds to that.
Kritter:Yeah, I mean shout out to Tolkien for writing this, because yes, slay but also Miranda Otto, who played A one of the movies. She doesn't say no man am I but the? I am no man the way she said it her voice.
Kritter:It's so intense and amazing and perfect, and just the fact that I could read this and watch it, it and it's two completely different experiences, but both of them give me such I don't know, I don't want to say joy, but it like makes me feel so proud to be a woman and like of all of this, all these books, obviously they're not, they're not very female focus. So to have this moment is just so nice after so many books of like, granted galadriel being so heavily respected and admired and putting her hands and things and like really affecting the plot, um, but it's usually from afar, right from above or whatever. This is so direct and impactful and I just like, I just love it so much.
Jessica:And really inspirational. Galadriel is otherworldly and kind of set apart, whereas Eowyn is a much more relatable character in that way. I can't think of a single woman that I know that can't relate to some level of dissatisfaction with their lot in life or any of a hundred different aspects of aowen's journey in these books.
Kritter:Um and so for her to have that moment is just genuinely inspirational yeah, yeah, she wanted the, she wanted to fight, and I don't want to say she wanted the glory, but she really wanted the fight and she got the fight and she absolutely dominated.
Kritter:So that was awesome. Yay, cheers to eowyn. Yeah, um, so eowyn then next slays the fell beast, chopping its head clean off, light falling about her and her hair shining like sunrise. But the witch king is not deterred, rising up and letting fall his mace, shattering her shield and breaking her arm. By the time he raises his mace again to kill mary has crawled within striking distance and gets him in the knee with his sword, giving a one an opening to stab the witch king straight into the void where his face should be. The sword broke, sparkling into many shards, the witch king wailed and crumbled into nothingness and Eowyn fell to the ground. So this was a this, was this? This? This lot happened there. How do you feel about it?
Jessica:Um, I, I loved it, but it was crazy. And so I definitely, through this part of the read, was like I really need to rewatch these movies, like I really don't remember how the battle scenes go down, because guess what, even when I'm watching media I'm not a battle's girl I'm like I kind of remember, you know, mary going to war with her. I don't really remember what happens, you know, when the baddie shows up. So I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to that experience to rewatch and see how that was portrayed on the screen, because I was like I guess I didn't realize that Mary had stabbed him.
Kritter:Um, and and then, above and beyond that, that led into a passage that I had marked as mommy for this chapter. Okay, sorry, I thought you said mommy and I was like oh yes, absolutely, but.
Jessica:but literary mommy? Sure, that too, but also literary umami. Um so, and it's not. It's not like pretty scenery, it's something different. Uh, so, past the sword of the barrow downs, work of westerness, but glad would he have been to know its fate. Who wrought it slowly, long ago in the north kingdom, when the dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade not though mightier hands had wielded it would have dealt that foe. A wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit unseen sinews to his will. And I just was like that's a hell of a paragraph. I don't care who you are, who you're rooting for, I'm like that is dang.
Kritter:That is a paragraph specifically for this exact moment, essentially way, way, way before this moment was ever contemplated. Do you enjoy happy coincidences like this or do they take you out of the story being like too convenient? No, I love it. It's like payoff, it's like payoff.
Jessica:I immediately wanted to go back and read about the Barrow-White passage again Because I was like, did we know? Because obviously I remember them getting gifted the swords. I think Tom handed them off to them. Yeah, you know, I think didn't?
Kritter:they didn't like comment on the sword too, or somebody commented on the sword and he had to be like yeah, I got this in in a really terrible place that I don't actually want to talk about, like I feel like that happened at some point.
Jessica:That sounds right.
Kritter:So yeah, we we got, we got the sword. We got like a hint that the sword was like pretty cool. Oh, maybe it was whenever he was getting armored by eowyn.
Kritter:That might have been when it happened, because it's like I've already got a sword you know something I I'd have to look back, but anyways, now I agree that this does feel much like a lot like a payoff, yes, like the swords actually tie into everything. It also to me again wheel of time, girly, forgive me. There's a concept in the wheel of time called taverin, where it's like the pattern which is kind of like reality itself, kind of like shapes. It shapes itself around certain individuals and those individuals are called taverin. Right, and taverin are important to like making the world do the things it's supposed to do. That was a terrible way to phrase it, but anyways, it does feel very much like. You know, the pattern was like shaping itself around mary in that way to give him the sword so that he could land in that particular place at that particular time. To make the Witch King stumble so that Eowyn could finish him off. So yeah, it didn't take me out of it at all, it actually made me more intrigued. Yeah, no, I loved it.
Jessica:As soon as it said Barrow Downs, I'm like that's right, that's a special sword.
Kritter:Yep, yeah, so that was uh, yeah, no, I, I dug it. Fan of that. Um, okay, so mary is the only one up still. Right, eowyn has fallen. Theoden is under his horse, um, but he manages to talk with theoden, who is dying. Aomer also eventually makes his way over and is a designated designated theoden successor before he notices eowyn and absolutely eluses it. So do you have any standout moments from these final moments with theoden am or any of that?
Jessica:um, I did cry when theoden said and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me. It did make me cry. And I think that the flip side of that is that Eowyn was heartbroken. Sorry, eomer was heartbroken about Eowyn, but in the very kind of cliched stereotype of what are you doing here? You're supposed to be back home, right? So that vibe came through. I don't really feel that vibe with Aragorn. To a lesser extent I felt it a little bit with Theoden, just that. You know, this is your role, this is your place.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Which grinds, you know, like that chafafes. But also there's some truth to that, yeah a immerse. Reaction to eowyn's presence on the battlefield was a little bit more of that almost dismissive. You have no business here, even in loss, even in mourning. Um, so that and, and maybe that was a stretch, but that is kind of how it hit.
Kritter:Yeah, no, that's fair. That's totally fair. I did notice. Did you notice did you flag this? That Théoden, when he was talking about how he could join his ancestors and be proud, he said that he felled the Black Serpent. Did you notice that?
Jessica:And I was like what, what are you taking credit?
Kritter:I well, I was really confused by that. Um, please, anybody in the comments correct me if I read that wrong. But and granted, like fine, you know, let a dying man believe what he believes. But at the same time, like no, you did not. Eowyn felt the serpent, assuming the serpent you're talking about is the flying beast, like you know. Um, although I guess, like people who are in charge, sometimes take credit for the things their subordinates do?
Jessica:I think he's talking about the flag, the flag hold on one second. So this is why I love my kindle. I can google, I can see word search, please, so in um the page before uh-huh, it talks about yes, he's talking about the serpent banner. So, oh god, thank goodness okay this is so embarrassing Because, honestly, I went out with like mad props for Theoden. You know we would come in and go out of a story without any ick. So that would have been ick for me.
Kritter:That's why I brought it up, because I was like no, you did not just take credit for that Serpent banner, so it sounds like those forces have a standard with a black serpent upon scarlet uh and he had felled the person or he had made it.
Jessica:You know, made the standard bearer drop it. So he, that's what he meant.
Kritter:Thank you kindle and thank you, jessica, for looking that up. That makes me feel so much better.
Jessica:No, no, no, we're not stealing credit, we're not going out that way.
Kritter:So anyways, now I'm very happy for him okay, he went out the way he wanted to go out and I'm not confused at all anymore. Good job, van, and you did earn your place in the halls of your ancestors. Um, so then, also in that am or like that did give me a little bit of like. He is like oh my god, though it's this woman, she's not supposed to be here, but whatever. And then he goes into this crazy rage, um, but we get a cool line from him and he says I believe this is something that feyadin says in the movie, but he says death, ride to ruin and the world's ending and there's no more songs now from from the. Uh men of rohan just calls for death. And that was like kind of chilling, I don't know. I kind of liked that, even though the inspiration for it was a little mid, but the way they went for it it was kind of epic right amir is very much a warrior, yeah.
Jessica:So the next piece, the next note that I have is that they actually they draw, they dug a grave for snow main, yeah, and, and I appreciated that.
Kritter:Yeah, but I noted that too, except it made me sad that his grave it had a nice little rhyme on it, but one of the things in the rhyme is that he was his master's bane, rip I don't know.
Jessica:It seems unfair to me. Years and years of good service, you fall down one time right.
Kritter:You get hit with a dart, you get shot, fall down one time and you are your master's bane and it's on your grave.
Jessica:Like that's inappropriate that's not how I'll remember snowmane for what it's worth good me either.
Kritter:It just made me, made me sad for him that that was how he's going to be remembered. Um rip snowmane, rip theoden, yeah, yeah. So at the end of this chapter, the corsairs of umbar. Corsairs are ships, just in case anyone was wondering. To the dismay of the good guys and delight of the bad, until Eomer catches sight of the banner flying from the head ship, aragorn had arrived and by nightfall the battle was over and the bad guys vanquished, though the good guys had also suffered many casualties. That's it, final thoughts.
Jessica:I had written down. I had another little piece of umami towards the end of the chapter where it said it seemed that all things wept for Theoden and Eow aoin quenching the fires in the city with gray tears oh and I just thought that that was very touching yeah, I think and then my last bullet was just she's alive she's alive.
Kritter:I tell you what, like tol, and rightfully so, knows how to hit the right tone when it comes to a battle. Right, it's not epic Well, some of it is but it's not all epic, it's not all glory. There's a lot of darkness and sadness and slower moments that don't always get talked about. I don't think so. I think he really captured, like as far as me not being a Battles girly, I'm not but there are certain moments throughout this thing where he really like hooked me in a way that I don't think many people would have, just because he made it more real, I think.
Jessica:And I think those beats in between, those breaths are kind of what stand out to me, at least, the most when I'm making my notes. Not that there isn't epic action, to your point, but the fact that he switches up the rhythm and those quieter moments, those more somber moments, those smaller moments, whatever it might be making room for those really ups the read. For me, yeah, absolutely 100%.
Kritter:All right. Book five, chapter seven the Pyre of Denethor, Deep breaths.
Jessica:You ready for this one? This chapter was hard man.
Kritter:Okay. So pippin finally finds gandalf and recounts what was happening with denethor and faramir. Gandalf hesitates, knowing that helping faramir would ultimately hurt other people, but he ultimately decides to help faramir and when he and pippin find the gate guard slain, he notes that friends warring with friends, was exactly what the enemy wanted. So we've talked about Gandalf being the insight king. Did this ethical dilemma he faced or observation he made about the enemy hit you in any particular way.
Jessica:I feel as though it was almost premonitory for the rest of the chapter. Um, you know about the enemy getting his way.
Jessica:The thing that hit me the most on this open this this early part is, I had the realization, as gandalf was saying it um that he really is functioning on a level that he has to pick and choose where he places his energy Because by choosing to leave the battlefield, he knows that they likely will you know, they might still win the day, but they'll likely take on more casualties. Or you know, he has to really pick and choose where he puts his energy because he could be leaving somebody else in a very precarious spot and, not to make him sound clinical, there are many important pieces on the board in theory.
Jessica:So how do you pick and choose in that moment which one is the most important? And so he essentially made that comment about you know, if I leave the field now there, you know people will pay, but there's no one else to help Faramir, so I must go Right. I got kind of chills about it.
Jessica:I was like Ooh yeah, no, when you know that if I walk away away, I might be able to help this person, but this person or this group of people will not have the benefit of my help and it's going to make their job that much harder right.
Kritter:It's giving trolley problem a little. You know a little bit. It's like you have. Do you pull the lever right, do you change your trajectory in order to save a different person? Um, and it also kind of reminded me of if we've got any gamers listening. Um, kind of like he's the great general right in civ civilization, the game, and he's kind of just like where do I, you know, where do I go? Because I'm clearly someone who's going to affect the, the pace, the tide, whatever a battle, and just having to make that decision is so brutal, like what a brutal way to live. Like my decisions are going to like affect lives, like lives will be lost based on the things that I'm doing.
Jessica:That's brutal and I'll go even further to say he was that important the whole time. I just don't feel like I had cultivated that insight until he actually pointed it out now that he's essentially acting as a general, yeah, and there is, you know, direct combat with the enemy forces. It's just that much more blatant, right? Oh yeah, no, he wasn't overstating his importance, sure not sure, not.
Kritter:So it turns out that baragond had managed to hold the servants at bay, having to slay a couple of them, and about the time denethor came for him, gandalf arrived, magicked denethor's sword from his hand did you notice that he, like, raised his hand and the sword flew, amazing and carried faramir, who he found covered in funeral oils at the top of a pyre, out of the chamber. So we're talking like fantasy novel or like a romance novel. Cover Gandalf holding Faramir in his arms carrying him out of this. Any thoughts about this sequence?
Jessica:I go back to what I said before, that Faramir must be important If Gandalf's willing to spend this kind of energy to save him not that all life isn't important. Um, he physically picked him up and removed him from the danger. I feel like that speaks volumes.
Kritter:Yeah, and we always talk about how old Gandalf is, how wise he is, but I love when Tolkien reminds us like he's also pretty spry, never forget he is.
Jessica:But I love when tolkien reminds us like he's also pretty spry. Never forget he can jump. Don't actually know how old he is, like it's really just a question mark, but he's strong enough to pick up a full-grown warrior right, just walk around with him right, yeah, once again very impressed with gandalf.
Kritter:That's basically where what I took from this little sequence and uh, and then we find out, some tea denethor has a palantir that has basically robbed him of all hope right zaron couldn't like influence him quite as much as he could. They had in, but he could show him exactly what he wanted to see, making him just despondent he admits, denet admits he had no intention of giving rule over to Isildur's heir.
Kritter:And when he tries to get at Faramir again, Baragond steps between them. Ultimately, Denethor takes the palantir and burns himself on the pyre. How are we feeling?
Jessica:Well, first off, all in caps, denethor, you, no good dirty dog, I knew you had one, I just flipping knew it. That is literally what my notes say. Yep, so called it.
Kritter:You did you did.
Jessica:And then there was another, so I have to give it to him. Though there was one quote from Denethor that I thought was quote worthy, um, so, as he's going through his tirade, he says but if doom denies this to me, then I will have not neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honor abated. Um, and so, as much as, even right up until the very end, I truly disliked Denethor. I thought it was a killer quote.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I mean the guy he's uh, I don't want to say he's got style, but like he is a complicated man, he is that way, um.
Jessica:And then I wrote you know, crazy SOB is that way, um. And then I wrote you know, crazy sob, he really did it. He hopped right up there. Um, it felt a little bit more horrific, bear with me. It felt more horrific because it felt like it took longer for him to die, because it took the time it took for me to read it as opposed to watching it does that make any sense?
Kritter:it?
Jessica:absolutely does. Yeah, it's to watching it. Does that make any sense at all? It absolutely does, yeah.
Jessica:It's like watching it in slow motion and it's horrifying and I'm like, oh my God, I'm a terrible person. Yeah, so yeah. And then you know afterwards he gave a great cry, spoke no more, nor was ever seen again by mortal men. And so my last thoughts about Denethor kind of come back to Boromir. So I am willing to believe our friend Don Marshall, obscure Lord of the Rings guy, that Boromir had a rough gig after meeting his dad. Yeah, fair, he definitely had a tough gig. Um, and I just I think any any dislike I had towards Boromir has shifted squarely to Denethor. I think Denethor is the only character that I have met throughout the whole series, short of Libidia Sackville Baggins. That I just can't stand.
Kritter:Never forget the Sackville Baggins.
Kritter:Never forgive an SB, so true so yeah, that's how I feel about him, um, and I think it's worth noting they said that if anyone like tried to use his palantir from then on, they just would, unless they have like an insane mastery hands there would be scary old man burning hands that they see, and that'd be it. So he basically rendered one of the palantir obsolete, except for people like, I assume, gandalf, galadriel, elrond, like the strongest willed people, and that's it. Because, yeah, he, uh, he corrupted it, yeah, by doing what he did there. So he really went out with a uh, with a bang Um.
Kritter:But I do appreciate how in the movie they had him like run off the end of the thing. That was very cinematic, but the way they did it in the books was very haunting. So I kind of like that the different mediums chose different ways to do it. Personally, um, also, I want to say that this, this all made me really sad for baragond, but it also made me really proud, um, because he had to kill several of his kinsmen right in order to save faramir. So he was just, he is a I don't want to say king's man. He is a son of a steward's man like he really respected but so loyal, um, and.
Kritter:And he even got between denethor and faramir, even though denethor was like the ultimate authority for him technically, like he this is a uh, what would you say? Chaotic good right, like he wasn't going to follow orders if it meant doing the wrong thing. So, so, anyways, mad respect for bear.
Jessica:God, basically shout out to bear and think about how scary that is for him as a person who is, you know, essentially in a servant role and defying his master out of loyalty for Faramir. Yeah, um, yeah, I, I had. I had strong feelings for bear God. I was very proud of him for standing up in that way, because it's such a hard thing to do yeah, as a regular person that man deserves a promotion and a raise, correct, I think, personally.
Kritter:Once faramir takes over um. So they bring faramir to the houses of healing. Uh, the Witch King falls from a distance and Gandalf uses his sights to understand what all had gone down, the good and the bad and understands that he might have been able to prevent some of the tragedy had he been there. I'm assuming you know Eowyn's, like Theoden maybe. Even I find it interesting that Tolkien took the time to point this out. We kind of talked about this already. Why do you think he might've done that?
Jessica:I think, follow through. Honestly. You know for a person that I've never met in my life, but he seems you know, if nothing else through the readings, he seems very meticulous and that it's almost resource allocation. So Gandalf, as a resource and talking about from a strategic perspective, the impact that that has when you move such a powerful resource from one point of the conflict to another, and that's going to have ramifications and I can honestly believe that as somebody who was in the military. He wanted to show his work right. He wanted to show that there is an impact, there are consequences when you make these choices.
Kritter:Yeah, so true, because if we didn't pick up earlier, you know Gandalf sitting there being like I have to choose Faramir because I'm the only one who can help. Now we know what the impact was. Yeah, they had and may have died because of this. So it's a. It was a drastic choice, um, but he had to make it, basically. Um, so we wrap up this chapter Gandalf and Pippin heading back to the lower city and Baragond heading to turn himself in and then volunteer to guard faramir, if they'll let him.
Jessica:Any thoughts before we move on um, there are two spots in this chapter where they refer to gandalf as a white light in a dark place and a? Um a figure carven in white as he stood in the new sun and looked out. So just the imagery is being really kind of leaned into um with Gandalf as a figure in white. Just noteworthy that twice in one chapter that that is very much being pointed out. I think it's because we're up against the enemy's forces and so we're seeing figures of dark and this is the counterbalance to that.
Kritter:That makes sense. I like it Okay. Book five, chapter eight the Houses of Healing. So Mary accompanied the procession carrying Theoden and Eowyn into the city, and this was the vibe To Mary the ascent seemed age-long, a meaningless journey and a hateful dream going on and on to some dim ending that memory cannot seize. So this didn't seem like a very hobbity attitude to me. What did you make?
Jessica:of it, um, I made of it that he had just had the most dramatic, scary encounter of his life, and he is shook to his core yeah um, it's really hard to maintain that hobbit silver lining attitude in the face of true evil which he was literally facing down.
Kritter:Yeah Hours previous, that's fair. So Pippin finds Mary wandering in the streets, having been separated from the procession in this days that he was in. He comforts him and insists on taking him to the houses of healing too. Were you relieved at this reunion, and I guess did you also have the sense that Mary was injured in some way?
Jessica:So it does say straight out he can't use his right arm, right. Um, and first off, I cried Mary and Pippin reuniting again. I cried, yeah, I cried. I'm like, oh my God, he found him. It's not always a misfortune being overlooked. There's a comment made by Mary. I liked that, I noted that, I think that that goes very hand in hand with Hobbit life.
Jessica:Hobbit life and then Pippin about Mary. His heart was wrung with fear and pity. So I've been on the record multiple times saying I trust their instinct and Pippin knows something's wrong with his friend. So all of that taken together, I do feel like there's some actual danger facing Mary, like he's not quite out of the woods yet, and so I felt the same impetus as Pippin, like let's get him to a healer, let's get him looked at and see what else could be going on.
Kritter:Yeah, the thing that really killed me was when Mary asked Pippin if he was going to bury him. Oh God, I know it's like for a hobbit to be like are you gonna bury me? Essentially, it's just so freaking sad. Um, because they're just like they're of all the races, they're the ones that kind of maintain the spark, the hope textbook trauma response though it really is not to bring too much reality into our fantasy, but it's very like can you check in on my wife?
Jessica:Can you make sure that my son makes it to graduation? Those are all very real things that happen. Can you check my garden? Whatever it might be, it might seem trivial to somebody else, but it's very real in the moment where you're just like, oh, I'm not going to be there anymore. Who's gonna? Who's gonna do X, y or Z? Yeah, and you know that is his very dear friend, you know.
Kritter:I think this is another, another example of Tolkien being like yeah, this is what it's like, like it's not all, just you know gunshots and like cool explosions. Right, there's the people involved, and they all get affected in some way or another, some worse than others, and mary was clearly very affected. Um, and then gandalf finds them both and admits that the world would be far worse off if elrond hadn't convinced him to let them come with the fellowship. That was a really nice thing to hear, so heartwarming. I appreciated that a lot.
Kritter:Yeah, so we find out there's this black shadow, an illness related to the Nazgul. It laid heavy on Merry and Eowyn and Faramir was burning with a fever. I kind of thought it was sort of less related to the Black Shadow. I gathered the eldest of the healing women wept at Faramir's dire state, wishing that there were still kings of Gondor, as quote the hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so the rightful king could ever be known. Gandalf, being inspired by this, strikes out and after having spent the remainder of the day tending to the sick sorry, he strikes out after having spent the remainder of the day tending to the six. So he had removed himself from the battlefield and was just really trying to work with the sick people. Aragorn initially did not intend to come into the city right away, but agreed to come as a ranger not a king to help with the sick when Gandalf fetched him and help. He does Thoughts about Aragorn's time in the Houses of Healing.
Jessica:He's a freaking healer man. Like I don't even know what to do with that information, so I certainly don't remember ever hearing that plot point before. I feel like that's brand new information for me. Yeah, also the fact that they use the Athelos, the king's foil again plot point before. I feel like that's brand new information for me.
Jessica:Also the fact that they used the aphelos, the king's foil again, I very much liked that, so I had written down this is a nothing weed that he uses to heal. Even in the last instance where they used it, they were like I, it's a weed, so I like that. It's something small and innocuous, like a Hobbit that that he can use to heal them. And just you know, genuinely he's laying on hands and casting away the shadow. Yeah, it's wild Magical.
Kritter:I thought it was so funny how, speaking of like it's just being a weed, Like all of these old folks came in and they're talking to him about this king's foil and they're like, well, it's worthless. It was so funny to me but also so frustrating, Like just go find it, my God.
Kritter:Like what else are we going to do? They even had a rhyme about his healing properties and everybody's just like but that's just a rhyme, it's not real life. My god, just do it. I know Even Gandalf was like, if you just go? He snapped at him. I was like that is me, gandalf is me right now. So he goes to Faramir first, right, and then uh, gan or sorry. Faramir woke up after aragorn does his healing thing with the king's foil and he immediately recognized him as the king which I freaking loved. Highly satisfying faramir sees all you know what mean. He's so wise and he proved it right here. I don't know, did you enjoy that part?
Jessica:I loved it. I loved it. So I feel as though Faramir is the best parts of his dad. So Faramir has that long sight ability and that nobility that comes from their old bloodlines, and he is a much better version of that. The other thing that I really loved about this inner exchange was at the end he asks his king what he can do and he tells him to be ready when I return, which is just another great reminder that we're not even halfway through the book yet. This isn't even the climax. Yeah, so I thought it was lovely. I thought it was wonderful, and Faramir just continues to live up to the hype.
Kritter:Yeah, aragorn then proceeds to Eowyn and uh and like brings her back but leaves before she wakes up. And it was to me just so blatantly like I don't want to leave this woman on. So, amr, you take over, I'm I'm gonna go do my thing elsewhere. How did you feel about that?
Jessica:um, I liked that there was a phrase there was a quote here, I think, think by Aragorn, who says but who knows what? She spoke to the darkness alone, in their bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking and the walls of her bower closing in about her a hutch to trammel some wild thing in. So I really loved that phrase because relatable. I do do some of my worst thinking in the middle of the night, when you know I make up ghosts and things like that. Um, so you know, seemingly acknowledging her plight in life and how it might affect her and how all of us are our own worst enemies at the late hours of the night. Yeah, um. And then, after this, though, aragorn talks about aoin and a love that cannot be returned, and I was just like dang, does that mean tolkien was trying to do the romance before?
Kritter:I think so yeah.
Jessica:I know, so that's a thing.
Kritter:Yeah, there was a love triangle in the Lord of the Rings.
Jessica:Okay, Moving on.
Kritter:Okay, moving on. That happened All right. So then, this is. This was a bright spot in this chapter, I think, for me. Mary wakes up after Irrigorn comes to him and immediately says that he's hungry. When's dinner? So on brand, such a relief, though he did say that he never wanted to smoke again because it would make him think of Théoden, which was so sad. I really liked Aragorn's advice here here, though, to smoke and think of him, which is what they hadn't said, and uh it's.
Kritter:It's interesting to me that mary ended up the pipe weed, lore master, after like hesitating to ever smoke again. You know what I mean, if, of course, if the prologue of the fellowship, if you remember, was any indication. So how did you feel about the sequence with mary and the healing and the, and the dinner thoughts and the smoking?
Jessica:loved it. I also noted that his first thought was food and I was like okay, full recovery.
Kritter:I love that story we're good.
Jessica:We're good, we're fine. The lore master on the smoke is interesting to me now because I like the fact that I feel that so often our friends help us find ways to process events from a different perspective, and so I love the fact that Aragorn kind of did that for him, gave him another perspective, and it so closely echoed what Theoden said to him that he was able to take that and kind of digest that feedback. So I loved that, digest that feedback. So I loved that. The last thought that I had from this chapter was the exclamation may the Shire live forever unwithered. So everything about this was a great note to end it on, because this was a heavy kind of section with some serious combat for our povs that we are seeing here yeah so it's some pretty serious stuff, so it was nice to end on a high note, for sure so yeah, for the end of the chapter.
Kritter:Aragorn is pursued by the people of the city and spends most of the night healing wounds alongside elrond's sons. He is given the name elfstone by the people because of the night healing wounds alongside Elrond's sons. He is given the name Elfstone by the people because of the green stone that he wore, which had been foretold at his birth. And when he was well and truly exhausted he went back to sleep in his tent outside of the city. Just, king, you know. Crown removed. And that's it for the chapter. So, any final final thoughts before we pick an MVP? And that's it for the chapter.
Jessica:So any final, final thoughts before we pick an mvp? Um, there was one last hobbit nod in there where somebody referred to them as very tough in the fiber and I freaking loved that yeah, aragorn's like fair mirror can't leave for 10 days or whatever.
Kritter:Eowyn same same, same, same, um, but m same. But, merry, he can go on a walk tomorrow. He'll be okay Dang. Okay, that's amazing.
Jessica:Yeah, also, though, I feel like it speaks to sensibility, right, like Merry's not going to immediately go out and try to spit in Sauron's eye, so I think there's a sensibility piece that goes with that as well. I don't know that I feel the same about Eowyn or even Faramir, to be fair.
Kritter:That's fair, I guess. Yeah, you can trust Mary to take it easy, more or less, without really needing that many instructions to do so. So it's a good point. Okay, all right, that's a good point. Okay, all right. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music, jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Jessica:I know we say it every time, but it was so, so hard.
Kritter:Okay, no, not every time. Sometimes we pick the same ones and it's relatively straightforward Last week brutal, this week maybe more brutal. Like harder even still.
Jessica:Okay, I'm just going to say it. Okay, I picked Aragorn because he was the group medic and he brought people back to life.
Jessica:That we need for the rest of the journey. So that was my logic, but I had strong feelings about both Eowyn and Mary as honorable mentions in this chapter in this section. Yeah, this chapter in this section. Yeah, cause I was like this is, but I finally gave it up because I was like Aragorn brought people back that we, that are clearly important, we're going to need them going forward. Um, so that's, that's how I came down. How about you?
Kritter:I'm glad you picked him because he was my runner up, which, I feel like, is what happened last week. I am, eric, was my runner up because of all the things you said, plus him showing up in the Corsairs, like everybody thinking it's the bad guy, and it's him pretty awesome. Excuse me, but I think we didn't give a shout out. You didn't give a shout out. Obviously there's so many possible honorable mentions in this chapter, because there's also Gandalf, who jumped but got faramir down from the pyre, right, but without baragon he would he would have been dead already. So there's a baragon too, um and uh, yeah. So ultimately, though, my mvp is my MVP is Eowyn, because the Witch King was the leader of the armies, right, and when he went down, that more or less to me kind of signaled the tide turning, even though Aragorn showing up was also a very helpful thing to have happened, but she took down one of the primary foes. Yeah, on the side of the dark.
Kritter:It was hard, man, it was a hard choice, and she did so with the assist for Mary. So again like.
Jessica:Mary.
Kritter:I was like I don't know how I'm not giving it up for Eowyn and Mary, but yeah, um, but yeah, just the fact that she was there, the iconic line, the fact that she was there, the iconic line, the fact that, you know, hashtag feminism finally shows up, lord of the rings, all of it was just really, really, really satisfying and so I went with her, even though aragorn did, did, did the most he did. He did equally the most to eowyn. Basically, they're so neck and neck here it's wild. So, yeah, let us know in the comments or on Discord how you feel about MVP. You could literally pick one of I don't know six people and I'd be like, yeah, that sounds right.
Jessica:So I'm really curious.
Kritter:I'm really curious what you all pick.
Jessica:Yeah, yeah, please shoot us messages and tell us how wrong we are, because we love it. It's our favorite game.
Kritter:Absolutely my favorite.
Jessica:So that's it for us for this week. So for next week, we're going to ask you to read book five, chapters nine and 10. So you're finishing book five for next week, and we want to say thank you so much for tuning into episode three of season four of but are there dragons brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sadai and Critter XD? Please don't forget to follow us at. But are there dragons on YouTube, instagram and Tik TOK and? But dragons pod? Just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as Critter xd and shelf indulgence. That's it for us today. We are going to continue to workshop new catchphrases through season four, so let us know on socials how you feel about this one. You are weary. Rest a while and take food and be ready when we return bye, bye.
