But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 4: The One with Gandalf's Plans, Sauron's Mouth, & Aragorn's Destiny
Kritter and Jessica finish book 5 in this week's episode with Chapters 9 through 10 of Return of the King. Join in as we hear Gandalf lay it all out on the line, we meet the Mouth of Sauron (and what a delight he is!), and lastly, we see Aragorn really lean into that whole destiny thing!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter.
Kritter:And I'm your host, jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica:And me as the Tolkien first timer In this our fourth episode of season four.
Kritter:we're going to discuss book five, chapters nine and ten, finishing book five Before we dive in. Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling?
Jessica:Feeling good, you know, watching grass grow like it's a full-time job, enjoying my first real summer in our new home and just loving life and really, really loving the book. Honestly, it feels like this last book is a whirlwind yeah Lots has already happened.
Kritter:A lot has already happened.
Jessica:It feels like this last book is a whirlwind. So yeah, lots of, lots has already happened.
Kritter:A lot has already feels early still. Yeah, nice, how about you? Oh well, I'm in my third trimester now, so very baby focused right now.
Kritter:Basically, I agree, though Reading the book has been a nice little consistent thing, you know, and I have forgotten, forgotten or, just, like you know, hadn't thought about things that happened in the book in a really long time. So it's really nice to be getting back to it after 20, a 20 year hiatus, especially the things that didn't show up in the movies, right. So I've also got this weekend. So I've also got this weekend. Obviously, whenever the episode comes out, it will be the previous weekend, but I'm going to Lord of the Rings, the musical in Chicago, which is so exciting, so I'm really excited about that.
Jessica:I mean, do they sing a song called they're Taking the Hobbits to Isengard?
Kritter:I'm not sure if they got the IP to that, but I hope so, guard. I'm not sure if they got the ip to that, but I hope so. I, I will. I'll be. I'll happily report back about the vibes right, because, like, some musicals are very serious, some musicals are funny. Um, and I haven't really looked into whether the lord of the rings musical takes itself super seriously or if it's more of like a camp adventure. So we'll see. I don't know, I'm pretty excited about it.
Jessica:Either way, it can be fun.
Kritter:Oh yeah, I mean, the movies take themselves incredibly seriously and they're my favorite movies. So I think I will be happy either way, especially just because I love the property so much and I've never even considered the fact that it could be turned into a musical until I heard that it existed and immediately bought tickets. So I'm very, very happy that I'll be going to see it.
Jessica:hopefully it's really good can't wait to live vicariously through, through you okay.
Kritter:so now that we're caught up, moving on to the chapters yes, okay. So book five, chapter nine, the Last Debate. A fair morning dawns and the first thing Legolas and Gimli want to do is visit Merry and Pippin. Gimli makes a point once again to mention how much they went through chasing them across Rohan, and Gimli and Legolas take turns critiquing the city as they proceed through it. This felt like a major tone change to me. How did it hit for you?
Jessica:It gave big morning after vibes it really so. I wrote in my note that Gimli and Legolas taking turns judging the real estate with a whole vibe of their own, you know, judging the stonework and judging the houses and things like that. I think that it's a nice foil to the severity of the situation. You know it's a post-battle scene and the talk turns serious pretty quickly. So it was a nice little interjection of some of their banter, which I love.
Kritter:Yeah, so you mentioned. It turns quickly. We get back to a little more somber of a note when Legolas once again sees Gulls and notes that all of his kind, the elves, have a sea longing deep within and that his had been kindled. Trees just aren't going to cut it anymore. How did you feel about this and the reaction of everyone who heard it?
Jessica:I thought it was sad. I did take note of the fact that he mentions the seabirds and how Galadriel had told him to avoid them, and there were a couple other things. You know, gimli has a great quote here the deeds of men will outlast us. You know, there was a couple of really quieter beats in there that stood out to me that I really liked. The longing for the sea was, you know, maybe a little foreshadowing yeah so I assume so I think so.
Kritter:Yeah, it's uh. It does feel sad, right, because you're like there's plenty to see here. What are you talking about? Like this is great and like this is just. You can tell he's just like it's pretty much the I've been bitten by the bug man, like it's only a matter of time, which, yeah, you know whenever you hear, like, if you have a good friend or something who's moving away, right, it's that same vibe where you're just like, oh, happy for you, but also I hate that you're leaving kind of that was the vibe that everybody was giving, basically absolutely, yeah, um.
Kritter:So then, mary Pippin, they're like hanging out. They asked Gimli and Legolas about the paths of the dead because they had heard about them, but they didn't know what they were. Gimli doesn't want to talk about it, but Legolas is willing enough to spill any standout moments from his story and their time with the dead army.
Jessica:There were a couple of quotes from here that I liked, um, and then there was a comment that legolas made about how, uh, you know, the ghosts of men hold no fear for them, for him, because he basically, um, he nothings them right like he doesn't. I don't I didn't save that particular quote, but he was just like I'm not intimidated by them in any way. But when he's talking about the ranks that Aragorn had called, he had said for the dead needed no longer any weapon, but fear None would withstand them. And I just wrote shivery next to it, cause I was like it's very, very well done, um, and yeah. So I thought that it was great that Legolas was willing to share the story. It's also Legolas does not narrate very often, so it's always nice when he's willing to contribute to some of the story time.
Kritter:Yeah, I find it interesting how he's done this a few times where he's just like Gimli's, like I don't want to talk about the story time. I find it interesting how he's done this a few times where he's just like Gimli's, like I don't want to talk about it. Literally, I'm traumatized. This is terrible and Legolas is like it didn't faze me Right, and it's not like he's saying it to brag.
Kritter:He's just saying it because it's true, right, and that it's. It's so, elfie, to me, right, because they're just like a completely different race, they have a different mindset, right, they're immortal. There's just so much to them that we don't always think about, cause it's he's the guy with the bow that doesn't say much, right, and that's all you got, I found what he's called them.
Jessica:He said powerless and frail, as I deemed them, yeah, and he refers to them as the shadows of men, and I just was like, oh well, that's a very powerful way to say you know that, you know there's. They hold absolutely zero threat to me whatsoever yeah, yeah, he's just kind of it's.
Kritter:It's a I think the kids would call it super hard like he was just. It was a hard statement like good for him, because you never think about him as just being this like cold. Not that it was cold, it was just practical, right, it was just just a statement like yeah for him, because you never think about him as just being this like cold. Not that it was cold, it was just practical right, it was just just a statement like, not, they weren't a big deal to me, but they were a big deal to everybody else, because they were literally scaring them to death. Um, I appreciated so arrogant aragorn deemed the dead army's oath fulfilled before they got to minas tirith. Right, they cleared out the ships, which was the big issue, and then he let them go, which was different from the movie. Did this surprise you?
Jessica:It did. I read it twice, I went wait.
Kritter:I thought where are they going?
Jessica:Yeah, I was like wait again, we're only halfway through the book. We're not even halfway through the book yet and things are changing, which, honestly, I do secretly love, because there's so many times where I'm like is that different, or have I just forgotten so much of the movie? But this was one of those times where I was like no, no, no, no, no, no, they're definitely leaving sooner than I thought they would, but I thought that that was good. Again, I'm a fan of closure. There are some stories that I love greatly that don't necessarily do closure so well, so I liked that. You know, their oath was fulfilled and they were dismissed.
Kritter:I don't really know what implications that has for later in the story, but I'm along for the ride anyways. Okay, I did notice that you know he doesn't take the army with him to meet a seereth, but he did manage to, if not replace them, at least to kind of gather a fair number of men to his side after the army left. Like there were slaves of a ship, there were other men who had fled and he kind of just like, and there were other men that they had met on the way. And so, even though it's different than the movie in that way, he still got to bring a host with him on to Minas Tirith, which I thought was great.
Jessica:I think it speaks to the Riz right Like Aragorn is a very charismatic character and he is a born leader of men, and the fact that he can just kind of collect these pockets of warriors and bring them with him, yeah, people are drawn to him.
Kritter:It's like it's not just well, I mean, yeah, it's not just that he is the heir of Isildur right. He is the heir of Isildur right, the presumptive king of Gondor, but he's just someone that people want to follow because of how incredible he is and, honestly, like fair and just like letting them go whenever they did what he asked them to, without trying to overstay his welcome essentially with them was, while not handy when it comes to fighting, was a good thing of him to do it, just like really spoke to his character.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, exactly, um, so they, let's see they. So we found that was the backstory, right. So we're coming up, we're like jumping around, which is interesting because they have already showed up in our read to Minas Tirith and they had already fought and all of that stuff. So now we're back in the present, to the extent that we have a present, and Aragorn, gandalf, eomer, imrahil and Elrond's sons have a war council outside the city, have a war council outside the city. Gandalf took Denethor's words against the power that has arisen, there is no victory to heart. Noting that the Palantiri do not lie With that info. He concluded that the war would not be won with strength of arms and his plan is to keep Sauron's eyes on them and off of Frodo, by probably sacrificing themselves. So Gandalf, in my opinion, was flexing his strategy muscles here. How did you feel about his plan, or at least his explanation?
Jessica:His explanation was good. I did not know. You know, palantiri are still a relatively unknown quantity for me. So the clarification that they don't actually lie they can just choose what they show you, which we've talked about, lies of omission, if nothing else is still a lie.
Kritter:It's giving like eyes to die, right Okay.
Jessica:So we talk about the Wheel of Time. We do. It's giving like eyes to die, right.
Kritter:Okay, so we talk about the Wheel of Time. We do. But there are these women in the Wheel of Time that they take oaths that they literally cannot break, and one of the oaths is that they cannot speak a word. That is not true. It's maybe like near the official language, but there's the saying that says the words you hear or the words they speak.
Jessica:The truth. An Aes Sedai speaks may not be the truth that you hear, that you think you hear. That you think you hear, or something like that.
Kritter:Yes, that's right. And so basically the palatary, or Aes Sedai, is what I'm saying, because they could show you something and you can interpret it one way, but they could just be very much manipulating what they're showing you in the sense that it could be completely true but out of context or whatever. So I thought that was that was fun. Sorry, I interrupted you. No, that's okay.
Jessica:I had a couple. I had a couple thoughts for this section. One was that, leading into this, as Legolas is finishing up, like his summary of what happened on the paths of the dead, it struck my attention that Legolas took some time to consider how frightful a character Aragorn would be if he had taken on the ring.
Jessica:Oh yeah, so I really, it's again, it's a nothing, it's like two sentences, but it shows somebody else perceiving him in that way and what a mighty terrible figure he would be if he had done that. And then that talks about you know not, for not does Mordor fear him. And then it mentions that he for is he not? Of the children of Luthien? So I feel like we got this alluded to maybe when we were at the council of elrond at the after party. But, um, I did take note of it that he is definitely a luthien descendant, um, so that stuck out to me.
Jessica:There was another quote in here that uh came, I think Gimli, that says oft hope is born when all is forlorn. I thought that that was just very poetic. Legolas, follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth. And then, as we come to Gandalf, kind of laying it out, and this is what the Palantir must have shown him, and you know, it's not a lie, um, you know, and the the enemy is that hard to face, and all of that stuff, I think the thing that struck me the most is that he just straight out talks about the rings of the ring of power. This is the first time that I've seen Gandalf out the ring of power, cause I went back and I was like, wait, who is he talking to? I'm flipping imaginary pages Cause it's a, it's a Kindle people. But yeah, I was like, oh no, he's talking to Imrahil and and Amr and the sons of Elrond, which I don't remember Imrahil from the movies either, or the sons of Elrond, so I'll be looking for them.
Jessica:But, I was like this is the first time in casual conversation with someone who didn't already know about the ring of power where he blatantly discusses how that's the context, that's the landscape when the Ring of Power emerges. And I was just sitting there going oh, oh, we're saying that part out loud.
Kritter:Okay, gandalf's, just cards on the table we're laying it all out. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree. You exist in the context. Basically, the context is there's a ring of power out there, maybe in Mordor at this point, and we've got to make sure that it gets to the mountain. So what are we going to do here? Like yikes.
Jessica:So as and I think the other big takeaway for this whole read, but definitely this part of this chapter I feel like I knew that it was a fool's errand and a suicide mission for them to ride for the black gate from the movie. In my previous life I did not realize although I'm sure somebody said it right, like I'm sure that it was there and I just didn't pick up on it that they were committed to the bit because that drew attention away for Frodo and Sam to make their trek. I don't know why that struck me so hard, but I was like oh, that's why they were trying so hard. It's not that they really thought that they had a shot, it's because they had to put on an incredibly good show to keep the attention of Sauron focused on them so that Sam and Frodo had any hope of success on their end. Again, I'm sure it was stated, or at least heavily implied, but I did not really get it until Gandalf laid it out for me, like I'm five.
Kritter:Well, and the thing is is in the books we get a lot more detail right, because in the movies we might have gotten that line from Legolas like one of his five lines a diversion, but that's. You know, that's just one thing.
Kritter:In this case we get like Sauron thinks Aragorn's the ringbearer we can bring a smaller force than we might otherwise need to bring, because he might think that this is like hubris and that aragorn thinks he's got more power than he actually does because he's got the ring right, like there's so much and and the fact that they left people behind like was not communicated in the movies really, um, and so it's like they're literally like no, we're basically picking and choosing the people we're sending to their deaths, like people who are willing, or at least willing, to follow orders to create this division, um, to draw sauron's eyes and literally just bring enough for plausibility yeah, yep, like, okay, this is.
Kritter:This is an assault by the ring bearer and I'm gonna like, let him come into my trap, like they're basically willingly going into a trap. But what is it? It's? Is it like a guardians of the galaxy thing, where it's like it's not it's not really a trap if you know it's a trap if you know it's a trap it's basically what they're like logic, which I think is so funny.
Kritter:Yeah, um, but true, right, like gandalf is a, if he feels very mastermindy here where he's like, let me give it to you. Like we're not going to make them come to us, this is how we sell it. Like we're not going to drag this out because we are in the end game here, and uh, and we got to put all of our cards on the table.
Jessica:Basically, yeah, so this part was huge and again, it's not a big departure from the storyline, it's just that context really makes a huge different difference for me, um, to have it all laid out. And a lot of times when that happens, it just so happens that it's gandalf dropping right, like he's just explaining things in a way that really makes it, drives it home, and those were things that, you know, younger me didn't even think anything of right, like I just blindly took it, but now it's rooted in something a little bit more factual. And then, you know, there were a couple of really great quotes through this part, but I think my favorite one is uprooting the evil in the fields that we know so that those who live after may have clean earth to till, to idolize, you know, or make seem more desirable a very agricultural lifestyle, a very simplistic lifestyle, for example, life in the shire, where you grow crops and things like that and are at one with nature.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I love that line too. It's like it starts I wrote the whole like it's not the whole thing, honestly, but he starts that with it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the sucker of those years wherein we are set. It's, it's it's a spin on something that was said in the movies, a quote that I absolutely adore in the movies, and it's like gosh, it's it's up to us to do what we will with the time that is given to us, or something like that. Like I'm just spitballing that's not completely wine for line, but he said something a lot like that and uh, and that always gives me chills, and so, seeing it worded differently but having the same vibe, right, we're doing what we can do now in the time that's given to us.
Kritter:And then this secondary part that you read, which is basically like it might not work out for us but it could help future generations, like it just feels so selfless and noble and amazing. And yeah, I really do love Gandalf in this section personally. Okay, so the chapter ends with Aragorn drawing Andoril and saying that it wouldn't be sheathed again until the last battle was fought. Do you have any thoughts about this chapter? Any final thoughts before we move on?
Jessica:There were just so many great quotes None of them are like movie worthy quotes but there was so much language here like movie-worthy quotes. But there was so much language here, even just in that part where it talks about well, first off, the reveal that Sauron is himself but a servant or an emissary, which is something I heard referenced before out of context. I don't think I heard it, I don't think I read it in the books necessarily, but this is my first recollection at least of the story specifically mentioning that he is just an emissary. There are several times in this particular section where, if we win, gandalf is emphasizing like if we win here, sauron will never recuperate to the power that he is now.
Jessica:He will always be just this low-level malice in the background that gnaws itself in the shadows. I mean, come on who talks like that and Aragorn is talking about. We must make ourselves bait. Another great Aragorn quote as I have begun, so I will go on. We come now to the very brink where hope and despair are akin to waiver is to fall.
Kritter:I mean, that's movie worthy. Yes, that one is definitely movie worthy. Big fan of that one I definitely misspoke.
Jessica:And then Imrahil, I believe, just going. Surely this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor that we should ride with 7,000, essentially as a child might threaten a male-clad knight with a bow of string and green willow. Like this is banana chips. Like we're going to take 7,000 people and knock on the gate at Mordor. Got it, but to your point. The chapter ends with him drawing Andoril, which is very majestic.
Kritter:Impractical, though Part of me is like you're not going to cheat that again while you're while you're traveling, aragorn, I think you are not real I love the sentiment though it's, it's a good one.
Kritter:Okay, ready to move on to the next chapter? Yes, all right. Book five, chapter 10, the last chapter in book five, the Black Gate opens. So can you believe it? We are, we're getting to the Black Gate. We're not there yet, but like, dang, okay, book like, let's do this. So we start with Mary once again being left behind, though Aragorn tries to like, I guess, comfort him by saying that his's a terrible pep talk. His deeds have surpassed pippins anyway, and if they're going to their doom, mary's doom wouldn't be far behind yeah, like we're all gonna make a last stand somewhere you might as well do yours here and give pippin a chance to catch up.
Jessica:And I was like, oh, you're never gonna be a basketball coach, sweetie, it's okay no, and the thing is, is he's so inspirational in other ways?
Kritter:he really is what are you doing, uh?
Jessica:yeah, I think this is end game, aragorn. He doesn't have a lot of hope to spare.
Kritter:He's tired he's a little tired. Like you'll be fine, like you should count your blessings that you're not coming with us. Basically, it just means that you're gonna die.
Jessica:Stay on the injured reserve list, you're fine right, exactly so, um.
Kritter:The party departs and makes its way to mordor. They repaired the beheaded statue at the crossroads, directed trumpeters to herald the king elisar's retaking of the land, decided against taking Minas Morgul first at Gandalf's insistence, and got shaved down to about 6,000 by Aragorn's dismissal of the men who lost hope entering the more desolate lands. Thoughts about this journey.
Jessica:Well, at the top of this chapter I got like two sentences in and went okay, so it's official no Sam or Frodo for the first half of this book. Okay, not really, but okay. And then the announcing, the heralding at every intersection. It took me until like the second or third intersection to understand the import of why they were doing that and how much of this is for show. Again, if I hadn't had that explained to me in the last chapter, I think I'd be like what the hell are we doing, guys? What's the point of this?
Kritter:what are we? Okay, so that makes sense. Actually, I didn't really in my mind. I was like what, like aragorn's, not really one to show off, so it felt out of character.
Jessica:But now that you're pointing now that it's a diversion, of course they were going to do that, and a ring bound aragorn right like a ring bound aragorn is more likely based on what we've seen in the books, to want the glory and want the accolades and and to want the call out.
Kritter:So it's such a good point, I didn't even think about that.
Jessica:But again, I at first I was like why are we? Why are we shouting at crossroads guys? What are we? What are we doing with this? Uh, I got there eventually. Um, another really good quote, this part uh, so time and the hopeless journey wore away. Uh, talking about their progression through to the Black Gate, which is just a crazy good quote.
Kritter:Yeah for sure. So we get to the iron doors of the Black Gate. They come into view, nazgul watching from above, and the captains ride forth, representatives from all the enemies of Mordor, including Pippin, with Gandalf as their chief herald. Eventually, the lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr, the mouth of Sauron, rides through the gate on a demonic horse. The way it was described is pretty frightening, is pretty frightening. He was of the race called the Black Numenoreans, a lover of evil, knowledge learned in and learned in sorcery, more evil than any orc. Anything about this description, kind of gets your attention, pique your interest.
Jessica:So I didn't know that there was a mouth of Sauron. I think that I had heard that said as a joke somewhere and didn't know that it was a real character in the books.
Kritter:Then I can confirm that you have not seen the extended editions, because you would remember him.
Jessica:Okay, I legitimately cannot wait. It is teed up. It's like first spot in my favorite ready to play list. I cannot wait to watch this because I and also I really loved Fellowship, so I kind of blazed through Two Towers and Return. But whenever I would have like the hankering for a Lord of the Rings fix, I would go to Fellowship more often. It's a perfect movie.
Kritter:I can't blame you.
Jessica:So yeah, I don't feel like I knew that there was a mouth of Sauron. I don't feel like I knew that. And then we talked about there's a banner which is black, but on it is a red evil eye, ominous AF. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and I wrote uh, there is an actual mouth of sauron question mark. Oh, and he's a real prize, he's like a really good guy. Yes, real stand-up dude. Uh, so there's free snark in every set of notes I have.
Kritter:Yeah I guess, I guess. So it's the way he was described, right? He was of the race called the Black Numenoreans and in my mind I was wondering like is he? You know, because the Numenoreans came over like a really old dude that has sort of like I don't know, been preserved because of his sorcery and or his ancestry, because the new minorians lived a really really long time that's true.
Kritter:So, yeah, maybe a combination of both, I don't know. But anyways, the it intrigued me because he is presented differently I won't say how in the movies, and so the fact that they were like he is he is human to me was shocking, kind of shocking, um. So yeah, I was.
Jessica:I was very intrigued to to read about him again for the first time in 20 years so reading reading his interactions with aragorn and Gandalf, again that context that was set up in the last chapter, they played their parts perfectly right. Like Aragorn had very little interaction with him but he stayed in his lane and Gandalf handled this guy the most and the distaste and the threat are so real in the most and the distaste and the threat are so real in the interactions. I really loved how this section was written.
Kritter:So I have to ask they parlay, and unfortunately Mr Mouth brings out some tokens to taunt the good guys with Sam's sword, a cloak and elven brooch and Frodo's mithril shirt. What was your immediate reaction to this?
Jessica:I had the drop in the pit of my stomach, yeah, but I was like no, I don't, you know, just because they had taken all of the stuff off of him doesn't mean he's necessarily dead, so, but I did have that instant gut punch. And then, of course, pippin reacting, gandalf, silencing him immediately Because obviously this character is treacherous and wicked and full of black knowledge, and so give him nothing, right? So don't say anything, don't do anything. He's, you know, he's got way too much knowledge already. You don't want to give away anything.
Kritter:Yeah, I feel like to me. Some of the things that he said were actually. I guess I kind of knew that this would happen, but the language that he used gave away the fact that he only knew about one hobbit Like that to me was like I latched on to a lot of the things he said because they just implied a singular character that they had like captured and whatever, and were torturing. So in my mind I was like Gandandalf if I'm hearing this, gandalf's hearing this too, even though he's despairing. Um and so next, the so the mouth offers a deal to the good guys, essentially claiming tons of land for sauron in exchange for the return of the hobbit gandalf, almost acting like he's going to accept the deal, takes the tokens from the mouth but rejects the terms. Were you surprised by the offer in the first place, and why do you think Gandalf behaved the way that he behaved?
Jessica:I think he did it to see if he could draw out and elicit any more information. So I had the exact same thing where I was like, okay, so, but he's not an omniscient character.
Jessica:He does not know everything, because he thinks that this is a single infiltrator and that they're spies. Right. So I was like he is not all-knowing. And so I think that Gandalf took the moment to make it seem like they were entertaining the terms to see if he could pull any other little tidbits out of him. Clearly, this guy thought that he, you know, had them dead to rights. You know, by the nature of the offer and by the nature of the ask, he thinks that he's got everything all stitched up. Yeah. And then I highlighted his response because I thought that it was because I could just hear it in Ian and sorry, ian McKellen's voice. These we will take in memory of our friend, but as for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Sauron faithless and accursed, still less with one of his slaves. Be gone.
Kritter:Shoo shoo, shoo shoo. You're not even the big boss. Yeah, I love the attitude. It's uh, yeah it you look and honestly like, as far as the deal goes, whenever I heard it because they don't they don't do exactly this in the movie um, I was shocked. I was like sauron's, not one to be like just let me draw a border around my land and I'll just be happily here. I'm just like that is such BS, like who is going to acknowledge or believe that that's going to do it for him, right? I don't know. It just felt disingenuous, like why would they even offer a deal if it was so obviously not going to be enough for?
Kritter:him basically, if it was so obviously not going to be enough for him.
Jessica:Basically, I liked the spit in your eye, essentially from Gandalf, and I liked that it made the mouth of Sauron mad. I liked the fact that he was laughing and joking and then wasn't.
Kritter:Yeah, gandalf shut him down real fast, which I really really liked but, that essentially kicked off the fight, the fight, the last, the last battle, the big, the big altercation. Um, so, as the battle is starting, uh, pippin can't help but wish that mary were there, understanding a little better denethor's desire to choose the time and manner and company of his death. Did this make you feel any type of way?
Jessica:Well, I don't necessarily want my guy taking lessons from Denethor in any moment. I know I do. I do understand it and I do understand being like in a really tight spot and wishing you had loved ones close to you. I was recently reminded that these guys are cousins. Um, uh, I had forgotten, I had genuinely forgotten that there was any familial, uh, relation, um, that there's is a, there's a is a bond beyond friendship and, yeah, I felt bad for him.
Jessica:I feel this is a moment for Pippin that I got to have tangibly, for Sam and for Frodo, that you know they're forever changed by this experience and I think I might've already said it in a past episode. I don't feel like I had that as much for Mary and Pippin, Like they went and they, they saw some stuff right, they went through some things, but they were, they were kind of the sideshow in a lot of ways and they seem largely unchanged by their experience and so when we have these moments, they really stand out to me because it's a reminder that these guys are not a sideshow. They went through, you know, equally serious stuff. They're literally making a suicide squad last stand.
Jessica:And he's there on the front lines and he thinks his friend is dead. And he misses his other relative.
Kritter:It's really sad. So Pippin is near Baragond when a group of hill trolls descends upon them. Baragond is stunned and falls, but Pippin manages to take down the troll that was leaning in to tear out Baragond's throat Because apparently that's their finishing move. Out Baragon's throat because apparently that's their finishing move. Unfortunately, even though Pippin takes him down, the troll falls, crushing him and.
Kritter:Pippin loses consciousness, his eyes, seeing no more as he hears cries that the eagles are coming. And that is the end of the chapter and book four. Wait, yeah, book four, no. Book five Thoughts before we pick an MVP.
Jessica:Amazing, an excellent chapter and an excellent tone shift. Hell yeah, you know he took out a troll.
Kritter:Absolutely Good for him. I love that.
Jessica:The eagles are coming. I love that the Eagles are coming. I love when we end on hope. I know we can't always end on hope, but I like it when we end on hope and I think that was probably my favorite part about this chapter ending this way.
Kritter:So you saw it as a hopeful ending. I did To me like Pippin was not in a good place.
Jessica:No, I mean he's's not, he's got a troll on him and hopefully he doesn't get smothered. But eagles are big like they could lift a troll off of him. It could happen true, true, okay.
Kritter:Well, I took the ending differently. Okay, I took it as, like you know, obviously for the, in the grand scheme, the eagles coming is a cool call back to the hobbit first of all, and like it gives hope to the people around him. But it just felt very much like baragon was down, pippin was down, pippin literally said like goodbye in his mind to black. He's yeah, he's like oh, this is how it ends basically, and so I guess I took it in the like I was more on the pippin is dying train than the eagles are coming train.
Jessica:That was a side thing, so I don't know if you know this about me Avoidance is one of my favorite things.
Kritter:Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I think I was just maybe in a dark place while I was reading it and I just thought I mean you were reading it as written.
Jessica:I just went okay, there are eagles coming, we're going to latch on to one little shred of hope. Everything's fine, that's fair, okay, well, any other thoughts? Just, you know again I've said it so many times like there's additional context that's being added and these are not major life altering things. But I have so much more appreciation for the story with what we've read and there are things that were done in the movies and choices that were made that make far more sense to me now than they did at that time.
Kritter:Okay, I love that More context. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the characters we've read for each episode. Cue the music Jessica. Who would you name as your MVP? This episode, MVP this episode.
Jessica:For this episode, I think that it really has to be Aragorn, for embodying the mission leader. He is not doing any hand wringing or questioning, like he knows what the mission is. He accepts his fate and he has squarely, you know, filled out those boots like he is in that role and he knows what it is and he's gonna lead his people and he's gonna be 100 committed um, and I salute him for it okay, that is not what I expected.
Kritter:I thought that this episode there was a good. It was a firm lock that we were both going to pick gandalf um, I thought about it you know what I love, I love whatever, we definitely thought about it.
Jessica:Yeah, because what he did, you know presenting. Well, I'll let you talk. I can shut up.
Kritter:No, no I think what you're saying. He he teed Aragorn up. Basically, he had the plan he had, like, he had the internal knowledge right. He listened to Denethor even though Denethor sucks to get the information that he needed to get to make the have the best possible chance for Frodo and Sam success. Willing to sacrifice himself, doing it with style whenever it comes to interacting with the mouth. Um, yeah, I just, I was very much team gandalf this episode.
Jessica:He he had. It was neck and neck. It was neck and neck, I think. I think this is part of me like making up with aragorn, because there have been a few times along the travel where he has been very equivocal, he's been very hand-wringy and indecisive, and I don't care for that. Okay, that's fair. And so now we're here the rubber meets the road. It's time, and even though there are definite reasons why he was chafing against his destiny leading up to this, the time has come and he is being the man that he was destined to be, and so that's ultimately what made me sway my vote to him over Gandalf, because what Gandalf did was incredibly crucial. I would never, but I think, ultimately, I think that that was a little bit of payoff from Aragorn finally really being himself Totally fair.
Kritter:I mean, I get it, I get it so. Okay, that's interesting. So we have two clear frontrunners coming out of us Gandalf and Aragorn. Coming out of us, Gandalf and Aragorn, If you want to weigh in on your MVP choice, let us know on Discord, let us know in the comments on YouTube or on Twitter, Instagram comments, whatever you want. We always love to hear who you're all's MVPs are. If you come up with somebody else, you know, Pippin slayed a hill troll, A troll, A troll, which is pretty wild. So I think there's multiple options here that are at least semi-valid. No, I do come out on Team Gandalf, but totally valid options elsewhere. Okay, well, that is, as I said it, for book five, which is wild Read for next week book six, chapters one and two. What do you think? Are we moving on to Frodo and Sam now? I certainly hope so.
Jessica:I don't like to leave those two unsupervised for too long. I'm ready. I've been waiting for tonight and I am diving headfirst into this pretty much the second we get off here. Okay, Okay Well.
Kritter:I love that, alrighty. So, as I said, book six, chapters one and two for next week, and thank you so much for tuning into our fourth episode of season four of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your host, jessica Sedai, and me, critter XT. Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons? On YouTube, instagram and TikTok and ButtDragonsPod just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as CritterXD and ShelfIndulgence. That is it for today. We are workshopping new catchphrases for Season 4, as always, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. This is our tale and it is ended For now. Goodbye, bye, bye, bye.
