But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 5: The One with Sam's Mission, Frodo's Rescue, & the Land of Shadow!
Kritter and Jessica are back and so are Sam and Frodo! The journey continues boldly into Return of the King Book 6 chapters 1 & 2. Sam proves yet again he will do whatever it takes (even make questionable choices) to get to Frodo. But rescuing Frodo is only half the battle (if that, TBH). Our boys start a trek into the perilous Land of Shadow where getting found isn't even the worst outcome!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Speaker 2:And me as a Lord of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our fifth episode of season four.
Speaker 1:we're going to discuss book six, chapters one and two. We are finally on book six, so before we dive in, Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling? Dive in.
Speaker 2:Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling Good, enjoying how the read is going? And life has been pretty hot on this side of the country, I don't know.
Speaker 1:We're not that far apart, but I think that it's probably been pretty hot in your world too. It's very hot. Yes, I've been an indoor cat these last several days because it has been warmer. It's like we're up in mordor at the, in the very fires of mount or something like that.
Speaker 2:Are we having sympathy pains for the boys?
Speaker 1:we are. I think that's exactly what's happening. So, yeah, that we just hit august, oh, fun news that no one cares about except for me. So there's this thing that I do every year, which is put up a hummingbird feeder. Okay, and I've learned since I have lived in this current house that this is my Samwise moment, I guess because he likes gardens or whatever. So let's assume this is my garden, I put up a hummingbird feeder and ever since I've lived in this house, they've never come during the normal part of the summer, right, they only ever come in August. And I told my mom this and what's fun is we have this like nature center near my hometown, that my house, my hometown, and they do a calendar every year. So my mom, oftentimes for Christmas, will get us these calendars and the nature calendars will have like relevant nature-y dates, right, yeah? And so I found out a couple of years ago that apparently, in my neck of the woods, hummingbird migration begins in early August.
Speaker 1:So I've discovered that I don't get normal hummingbird traffic. I get the migration traffic and I saw my first hummingbird traffic. I get the migration traffic and I saw my first hummingbird of the season just yesterday so amazing.
Speaker 2:Everyone be happy for me okay, it was.
Speaker 1:It was a very exciting time because it wasn't even august yet and I think it was like august 9th or something. That is, it's like the hummingbird migration starts.
Speaker 2:So they're a little early this year ahead of the curve a little bit this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is actually also the first time that I've made my own hummingbird juice. I don't know like you boil sugar and water. Basically, usually I just buy it, but this time I was like, by god, I've got a lot of sugar for some reason. I'm gonna do it. And I wasn't sure they were gonna be attracted to it because the feeder is clear and the water's clear and I wasn't gonna die it and uh, but they found it anyway. So nature anyways, but I don't have to be outside to watch the hummingbirds, which is another bonus because it's really hot. So do you have any major triumphs?
Speaker 2:no, I mean we're still growing grass.
Speaker 1:And that is a full-time job.
Speaker 2:We put out patio click and lay decking Nice. So we have big plans for our backyard.
Speaker 2:It's ridiculous, but it's a staged approach, so it's going to take time and a couple of seasons, a couple of budgets to get it done out the way that we really wanted to. But in the meantime we do have, like these concrete areas which are handy for having, you know, flat space but doesn't look all of that great. And so we found this kind of cost-effective, click and lay plastic tile to just make our backyard kind of pop, and it makes us happy, and this weekend we're picking up an umbrella so that we can, you know, just really start enjoying our backyard, cause, you know, we haven't had a yard before.
Speaker 1:The oasis is developing slowly, slowly but surely. Well, I love that for you.
Speaker 2:Look at us in our outdoor fun things, and I do feel like Samwise, even though I am, you know, like a green thumb dropout I can't. I have two plants currently that are still alive, so I'm very proud of but I'm learning about all of this because I've never had my own dirt. So I do feel very hobbit, like when I do outdoorsy things.
Speaker 1:I do feel very Hobbit-like when I do outdoorsy things Nice.
Speaker 2:Look at us.
Speaker 1:Look at us and how convenient that you and I are both talking about Samwise adjacent things when we are finally back with our boy Sam. Finally, let's dive in, shall we? Let's go Okay. Book 6, chapter 1, the Tower of Cirith Ungol. So, as I said, we are back with Frodo and Sam, or at least Sam. Since last we saw Frodo, he had been taken and Sam has decided officially that his duty was clear Rescue Frodo or perish in the attempt. How are we?
Speaker 2:feeling with our boy Sam on the warpath but utterly alone. I am obviously very concerned for his well-being, but I can't help but point out that I love his cheek in this chapter. So on the on the same breath, practically, of saying you know, he no longer has any doubt about his duty, he says, you know, perishing is more likely anyway and it'll be a lot easier anyway. So there's just a couple of real influxes of Sam's humor in this read that really, you know, make me love him more.
Speaker 2:So, even though it is a little terrifying because he is, you know, just one hobbit against all of the amassed powers of Mordor, it feels like, you know, he's taking it tongue in cheek and I love him for it.
Speaker 1:Every now and then he reminds me of Eeyore, you know just like. Well, I'll probably die anyway. Yeah, it's just so funny.
Speaker 2:Might as well get on with it.
Speaker 1:There was a little bit of umami, and I don't know that I directly quoted it, but I really liked it. It was. He was in a land of darkness where the days of the world seemed forgotten and where all who entered were forgotten too. I just kind of was like, oh, that's a good illustration, I guess, of kind of how he's probably feeling and and how it is honestly. Um. So when we left off, he was in the tunnel. Still, he backtracks through the tunnels since he decided he wasn't going to make it to the tower that way. He was gonna have to wait for the gate to open, and once he works his way back out, he takes a breather. That goes ahead and puts the ring on Thoughts about this choice it was.
Speaker 2:it was absolutely one of those what the what? Literally like, excuse me. Uh so, and I feel as though it's not even the first time in our read that this has happened I feel that a certain someone else just cavalierly threw the ring on like it was no big deal. Um so, yeah, no, uh, sam is officially a ring bearer now and um, wow, yeah, somebody, are we talking about tom bombadil?
Speaker 1:because he, yes, okay, okay, sam's, sam's giving tom bobadil in this moment. Um, I do think it's funny how that was a moment where he just like threw caution to the wind and then he also heard orcs fighting amongst themselves in the tower and he just once again throws caution to the wind and yells at frodo, I'm coming, mr frodo, sam, if you're gonna put the ring on to be invisible, like why are you screaming?
Speaker 2:Shout out your position.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's not giving Bilbo no. Robber genes are coming forth in Sam at this point, which I thought was pretty hilarious, but nevertheless he heads to the watchtower, taking off the ring once he starts to feel this like I don't know, it's like no longer appropriate for me to have this on, as if it was appropriate before. And then he catches sight of Orodruin, the Mountain of Fire and Kirith Ungol. He realizes that the Watchtower of the Orcs was actually once an outpost of Gondor, but now it's Sauron's. Sam doesn't like his odds of passing it unseen or going in. Did you kind of appreciate this? Like getting the lay of the land the narrator gave us? You know, look this way, we see the mountain.
Speaker 2:Look this way, there's the tower um, in as much as I do anything geographically, I really struggle I really struggle. It's not as bad as battles, but it's close. If anything, I always appreciate hearing about something from Sam Wise's perspective. Just because he's not an omniscient author and he's not, he doesn't carry any of the preconceptions of the POVs that we might get from men or elves.
Speaker 2:So, that's always interesting to me, Not that it really changed the flavor here but sometimes it really does the part that I loved through this he talks about the ring's power grew and it became more fel. Untameable is the way that he refers to it. Uh, wild fantasies arose in his mind and the thing that I loved most is a little bit of umami um, because the the ring was clearly trying to tempt him with ambitious dreams and things in this. My quote from this is the one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and do, and I just was like buddy.
Speaker 2:I just love him so much I love that.
Speaker 1:The temptation was like you can have a galadriel's, like you would have a queen, in the sense it's like you would have a garden, that is an entire land.
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. It's yeah, and he was perfect. He just rejected it Like, nah, I'm good, I just need my humble, humble little abode, I think my favorite thing. I'm usually also like a geography, like I don't know what you're talking about, you know what I mean. Like I may look back in the maps to be like what don't know what you're talking about, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like I may look back in the maps to be like what and I found myself doing that more and more in these last few chapters when they'll like, say, a landmark just casually, and then I'm like which one is kira thungle, you know? Like I have to remember, um, things that have names. I'm terrible with names, but more than just like what they are and what they're called. It was interesting about the tower being like a watch tower to keep people from leaving mordor. Um, and it versus entering, versus entering and it. They noted that that still kind of applied because sauron had few servants but many slaves of fear so it was like whether or not the geography of it was relevant or exciting.
Speaker 1:That part was so interesting Because it's like he's got few people, if you know any, that are just devotees, right, people that are like in it for the cause, but he controls a lot of people Like. It's like the orcs, right, they're not very tame because they're just terrified of getting murdered, right, and so they're doing what. They're just terrified of getting murdered, right, and so they're doing what they're told, more or less, but their motivations are cloudy because it's not based on love for sure.
Speaker 2:And the only humans that we've seen, apart from you know the mouth, the humans that we've seen following them. You know, throughout the story has shown us that he's using manipulation tactics to ensure their participation on his behalf and that will only get you just so far and, coming from that place, he's not going to trust them either and they don't trust him they're just terrified, um.
Speaker 1:So sam gets up to the tower right. He faces this temptation. He rejects it, bless him. Um, attempting to pass under the great arch of the tower, he's stopped by some magical force field. Now, fun fact, I have to note that as a child I used to think that it was forest field. I feel like that's a common mistake, but I have to admit that's what I thought. So not forest field, force field. But he puzzles his way through it. Did you appreciate the solution?
Speaker 2:I did. I did so. The file got a lot more action here than what I was expecting. I don't remember this arch pathway, the two watchers piece. I don't remember any of this. So, um, yet again saying I can't wait to watch this movie and see if there's any nods to this that I've just missed along the years, which is fine. Um, it really did, and I know you haven't seen seen it, but for anybody who listens along or watches along, that's closer to my age, maybe it really gave me, um, the never-ending story, vibes, where they're trying to walk by the sphinx, and if you go by, if you are pure of heart and intention, you can go by, and if not you're, you're done for kind of thing.
Speaker 1:that's what this gave me for vibes okay, I'm not familiar with that, but sounds similar yeah, and so, yes, loved his uh, his uh, trusty solution for getting through this yeah, same um so it. He did get through, though, but it set off an alarm, that's worth noting. Like just like, just like a peal, you know. He's like oh shoot, what was that? Were you going?
Speaker 2:to say something else Now. I've rung the front doorbell. And I just again like LOL.
Speaker 1:Hey, gotta do what you gotta do. How else is he going to get in there? Was that all you had? Yes, was that all you had? Yes, okay, great. So the tower is largely abandoned. It's kind of like a little bit of a war zone, but Sam is not completely free from orc encounters. Were there any standout moments from his ascent through the tower?
Speaker 2:I thought that it was interesting that he his appearance to the orc that caught him unawares was changed just by kind of clutching the ring, not even wearing the ring, um, I absolutely attributed that to him. Holding on to the ring, yeah, um, and made him scarier. Uh, I do like that. He kind of talked himself through this. I also found myself reminiscing about our orc names as we go through this. I was like, oh, snagbers and Golfgun on the prowl again.
Speaker 1:Golfgun. Yes, what would Sam's work name be? We'd have to figure that out.
Speaker 2:We do have to figure that out. And then, as he's going through this you know he's going through some really well. First off, it's physically demanding for him to make it up these stairs and climb to the top of this tower. He's tempted again by the ring and that's what he's clutching.
Speaker 2:He's still, uh, carrying on the elf warrior storyline, which I love love that too, I love that cosplaying as warrior elf yes, amazing, love that for him whatever it takes, man, um, and you know, coming to the end where he's overhearing the orcs talk back and forth and hearing more of the dissent among the orcs, which is not new for us, right, like we know that they have different masters and different motives, um, and it sounds like, uh, the fit has really hit the shan for the orcs yeah, I was proud of sam during his ascent because he like legitimately decided he heard an orc.
Speaker 1:I was like you know what I'm going to confront him and it was Shagrat. Right, he's like we're going to do this. Not that he really had to do anything ultimately, but he made the decision and I'm proud of him for it Super brave. But at the top he meets a dead end, defeated. He sits on a step and sings and something, maybe for a second, seems to respond, but another orc, snagga, thinks it's frodo singing or responding and reveals a trap door that sam had not seen. Snagga begins to whip frodo and sam just loses it. How do you feel about this little skirmish and sam's reunion with frodo?
Speaker 2:uh, I think that I found it very relatable, right he? Well, earlier in the chapter it had talked about his love of Frodo carrying him through to begin with, and for him to see his very dear friend that he was trying so hard to get to, being whipped and it, you know, sending him into a rage I absolutely a protective rage, I can absolutely understand that. And then being reunited, it just so precious. You know, like just the quote here, the umami here was Sam felt that he could sit like that in endless happiness, but it was not allowed and I feel like that's a very, that is a statement that could have more than one meeting, like a lot of things with their relationship. It's complex and it could mean more than one thing, but it's just, it's just so beautiful to see them reunited. And you know Frodo is hallucinating. He's like first you were an orc and now you're you, and it's just so beautiful to see them reunited. And you know Frodo is hallucinating. He's like first you were an orc and now you're you, and it's real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Except like Frodo's reaction when he found out that Sam had the ring right. That was part of his like orc hallucination moment. How'd we less heartwarming? How'd we feel about that?
Speaker 2:It shows just how far, so I think, of what the ring is doing to say to frodo as a sickness, and it shows a huge progression and how much the ring is negatively affecting frodo. Um, that he can't even so he does at least. So that's very golem like behavior, very much, yeah, very much so, instant parallels. You don't even have to draw the lines, but then the mist clears, right, and then he has regret, honestly, kind of calling back to Boromir, right, how Boromir was tempted by the ring and wanted to take it from him and then, after getting a solid knock on the head, was like I'm so sorry, I don't know where that came from, I apologize, you know. Kind of reminiscent of that a little bit too. So I mean, I think that speaks to, you know, frodo starting from a very good at heart place and so he's able to come back from that. But, right, it shows definite progression in a very scary way yeah, it definitely speaks to the resilience of hobbits.
Speaker 1:Right, because it got boromir way before it got frodo and boromir wasn't even carrying the ring. Yeah, um, we have another moment of like eeyore. We have another eeyore moment where at one point I think it's sam, it might have been Frodo said it's no good worrying about tomorrow, it probably won't come. I think that's maybe about like the provisions they were eating. They were just trying to like stock up on food and just kind of like well, whatever, I guess it is what it is. You guys, we're going to do our best, but if it doesn't work out at this point, it just doesn't work out Bust their hearts. So the two hobbits, properly disguised because Sam went and got them disguises they leave the tower and they once again use Galadriel's file to great effect to get past the magic guards, once again triggering an alarm and sending a winged shape down from the sky. Siding, siding, and that is the end of the chapter.
Speaker 2:Thoughts, thoughts about this last part. Um, it was, it was intense, it was crazy. Um, yeah, and I wish that it had made it into the movies.
Speaker 1:Which part? Oh, the barrier, the magic barrier, oh, okay, okay, okay. I was like what do you mean? They do kind of go to the there's a tower, there's a tower, there is a tower, but not exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and then there was just another one here here. So when, when sam leaves frodo in the attic and says I'm going to go and look for the, he's going to look for disguises, um, and provisions, um, it talks about. Frodo sat for a while and shivered, dreadful fears chasing one another through his mind, and again just another, uh, very poetic thing that also shows just how far along he is. So that was. I think that was kind of it for chapter one for me well, and just imagine the ptsd.
Speaker 1:You know, like mary and pippin know and now, frodo knows what it's like to be captured by orcs and like you're not supposed to be spoiled. But schnaga, or whatever his name was, had no problem whipping him right, so he was spoiled in some ways. So, yeah, you have to feel really bad for him. After Sam abandoned him, left him once again and he's just like terrified. I would be terrified too, I think.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Okay. Book six, chapter two, land of Shadow. So frodo and sam flee. They avoid the nascal hide from orcs, get stabbed by thorns and eventually have an outfit change thoughts on their initial experience traveling in or on the outskirts of mordor.
Speaker 2:I had the same reaction that they did. I didn't think anything living grew here. So when they found the thorn bushes, I was genuinely surprised, yeah, but obviously it was a crappy way for them to have to spend any time and super uncomfortable. I think the big reveal for me here is that Sam's calling out, you know? Oh, and, by the way, gollum's not dead, right, yeah, so I guess I didn't really have much. Obviously, all of this them trying to make their way and not get caught, how dangerous the walk is, and them ending up in bushes with thorns that feel a foot long somewhere that sounds terrible too it kind of reminded me of that sequence, like the beginning sequence, where it's like they dashed across the bridge and then they hid next to some rocks but they had to go back into the road.
Speaker 1:Just briefly, you know. They were just like running, ducking, diving, dipping, dodging. Um, it reminded me a lot of. Have you seen emperor's new groove? Yes, okay, when cronk has the emperor in a sack and he's like, and he's like trying to escape or whatever to like dispose of the body, um, except for he's not dead spoilers uh, he gives himself his own theme music. It's kind of what it reminds me of, because he's like hiding in the shadows and then dashing across bridges and whatnot. Obviously it was less light-hearted than that. That's kind of what it was giving for me. I don't know. Sometimes I like to entertain myself. What can I say?
Speaker 2:not that tolkien's not entertaining me enough um, yeah, but we can't help the pop culture references when they just pop up in your brain.
Speaker 1:It's true that's what popped up in my brain. So at one point the light changes for frodo and sam in a somewhat hopeful way. But the narrator kindly let us know, to set the scene, that theoden is laying dying on the Pelennor fields at this moment. So are you grateful for this particular temporal calibration.
Speaker 2:Yes. So again, every time they do that. I'm not always the best at keeping track. Apparently, I'm just kind of a crappy reader, right? No, we all read for different things. We really do, and I am, you know, I am a fresh audience at every turn of the page.
Speaker 2:No, I really do appreciate the calibrations because it really does help me contextually, because every story that I'm reading, each POV that I'm reading, is my favorite in the moment, which is so corny, but it's really true, and sometimes I really do forget where we left other people off. True, and sometimes I really do forget where we left other people off. So in that moment I was like, oh, oh, okay, so this goes back to Théoden, this goes back about this far in my read and it really does help reground me in the larger story.
Speaker 1:I can see what you're saying and I agree. I do like having the timeline clear. My biggest gripe with this particular temporal calibration is that the narrator could have told us that in fact, the Witch King had just died Very exciting, very happy moment. That's why the light changed, but instead the narrator's like King Thad and laid dying, and so it's almost like the light's different and it's beautiful, but we're still sad and it's not happy. Okay.
Speaker 2:It's so funny that you say that, because my note wrote another time sink. Thankfully, this is the day that Theoden dies at Pelennor. So does King Ringwraith, btw. Yeah, so funny that you said that.
Speaker 1:I could have said that, but instead they're like no, we're going to get you sad again. Sorry, don't be too hopeful. Eeyore moments left and right here, okay. So, miracle of miracles, the two of them then find water and when Sam asks to drink first, I thought like Frodo for a split second. That wasn't very like Sam. It's like no, let me have it first until Sam explains why. Did this catch you off guard initially, or were you like oh yeah, he's gonna test it for poison uh, it did.
Speaker 2:It took me off. It took me off guard for just a half a second. Then I was like, no, he wants to make sure it's okay for him yeah, and Frodo's, like it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're gonna die. We're gonna die. What, like I thought?
Speaker 2:he. You know, frodo also had a very good point. Like our luck is our luck and our our lot is our lot. You know we're in it together.
Speaker 1:True, and every time they drink water here I remember what is it what faramir told them? Like don't drink any water in. Or like what was it of springs that come from mordor? I can't remember exactly what it was, but I just remember him saying that and I'm like how do we know if this water is okay? But again, words of wisdom from Frodo. What are you going to do? You're going to die of thirst. No, you're going to drink the water, even if it's possibly terrible for you.
Speaker 1:So the two stop and rest at one point and Frodo falls asleep. Sam gets a little glimmer of hope from a white star whose light broke through the cloud cover A bit of literary umami. The beauty of it smote his heart as he looked up out of the forsaken land and hope returned to him. For, like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end, the shadow was only a small and passing thing. There was light and high beauty, forever beyond its reach. He then falls asleep and frodo and sam wake up together, hand in hand. Did this little section give you hope or make you feel any type of way?
Speaker 2:Oh, I felt all the things. So you know, before they came across the trickle of water, he had essentially prayed to Galadriel for water and light. So they found water, they found light and they woke together. Hand in hand was almost fresh. So they also, as well as getting, uh, water and light, got hope and rest, um, and and so I got uh, I'm gonna choose to believe that was straight from collateral nobody can tell me otherwise.
Speaker 1:Like that it was her a hundred percent uh, our queen, so that's.
Speaker 2:I felt a lot of things about that. Yeah, because they are in incredibly dire straits and so she could have sent them the most pure trickle of water, but it's coming through such a tainted land. That's the best she could do from that far away.
Speaker 1:But kept them alive, kept them going, which is all they needed. So the hobbits finally make it to an overlook of the inner plane, still 40 miles from Mount Doom, with armies of the enemy camped in their way. How are we feeling right now?
Speaker 2:um, I liked that sam wise was like. But where there are men, there are provisions so I like a practical king I think because I don't think like that.
Speaker 2:So I think that if somebody else is thinking about those things it makes me feel reassured. Um, so, yeah, you're gonna. They are in in dire, dire straits and that is definitely a theme through this part of the read that at every turn they are incredibly low on, uh, necessary resources to stay alive, to finish the track, much less make it home, just to finish the day. Um, so I liked, I liked that, I did also like. Strangely, the insight or talks about, the eye is turned inward, pondering tides of doubt and danger, a bright sword and a stern and kingly face it saw, and for a while it gave little thought to other things. And all its great stronghold, gate on gate and tower on tower, was wrapped in a brooding gloom, so just narratively telling us that the eye is quite occupied with what's going on elsewhere yeah, this was presumably around the time that aragorn used the palantir right.
Speaker 1:right, that's what I got out of it, so I'm glad that you pointed that out, because I didn't actually put it into my outline, but it was interesting. At any given moment, the eye is doing certain things. Where's the eye focusing its attention? Right, because if it's not otherwise occupied, it's going to focus its attention on its own lands, where Frodo and Sam are. So Aragorn helps them by distracting it.
Speaker 1:So every time sorry, no, I was just. Eventually, Gandalf distracts it by his plan that he hatched them going to the Black Gate. It's just like they everybody did exactly what they needed to do to get Frodo and Sam into the end zone, basically.
Speaker 2:And this was another example and this was the first time I feel like I caught it in the narrative, like oh, and this is by design, right like this, is them living up to that and keeping, uh, keeping sauron occupied?
Speaker 1:right. So in their next encounter with a couple of orcs, sam and frodo overhear that they're actively being tracked, like they are trying. They're trying to find them, as is gollum, who's apparently about. So, as a gollum girly, did this pique your interest?
Speaker 2:it did. Uh, so they called him the black sneak, um, the gobbler with the flapping hands, um, you know, and just that they don't really know what to do with him either. They were like, no, he was told to be leave alone. But how fortunate that they have somehow even narrowly managed to elude these I'm assuming they're sniffers like they're trying to pick up the trail that Sam and Frodo left behind. So a win is a win behind.
Speaker 1:So a win is a win right, like a win is a win they think they lost them when they're literally like within earshot, like, okay that I'll take that. Yes, absolutely so. The hobbits try to find their way off the roads. Right, they're not on the roads at this point, but, having no luck, they decide they're just gonna have to chance it on the roads at this point. But, having no luck, they decide they're just going to have to chance it On the roads or starve, basically. So on another sleep break, sam ventures out on his own on a foraging mission and finds some water, though on his way back he sees Gollum lingering around Frodo before slinking away. Sam seems to be getting so lucky, finding just what they need when they need it. Do you think it is just luck or is there something going on?
Speaker 2:here. I mean, I still think that Galadriel is trying to keep an eye on them. I don't know, you know, I really don't, and I don't necessarily expect to get that answered, but I do feel like there are forces at work that are trying to make sure that they're able to find what they need. Yeah, so that's how I've rationalized. It is very convenient, especially since Tolkien has taken the time to painstakingly point out that, like, not much grows in this land and they have to bring in their own food and water for troops. So it's very clear that foraging is a very difficult prospect at any time in this area. I'm going to choose to just let it slide.
Speaker 1:Plot armor or divine intervention, maybe both.
Speaker 2:Maybe both.
Speaker 1:Maybe both Okay, so how are you feeling about Gollum creeping around? Frodo Worried?
Speaker 2:I feel like it was inevitable. He will not stop until the ring is gone. I think that it's crazy. I think that it's crazy that Sam left him to go find water, not that it wasn't justified. You can't live without water. I think that it's crazy. He got back just in time, but whatever, another plot armor slash divine intervention Yep.
Speaker 2:I mean it happens. Plot armor slash, divine intervention, yeah, yeah, uh, I mean it happens, uh. And then I go back to what's already been said, that you know, uh, there may be more yet for gollum to do yeah, so I guess we can be happy that he's around, even if it pains me, all right.
Speaker 1:So frodo and sam's worst fears finally come true. They encounter a band of orcs they cannot avoid, but instead of making them as hobbits, the orcs assume they're deserters and make them march hard for miles, just as their legs are about to fail them. Multiple roads and bands diverge and frodo and sam crawl away to a shallow pit and all the confusion where frodo lays on the ground like a dead thing. And that's the end of the chapter and the read thoughts on this last part or the chapter generally, before we pick an mvp.
Speaker 2:it's still not as bad as it could be right like Like, yeah, a forced march when you're already injured and depleted and all of that, but you are still smack dab behind enemy lines and so being treated as a deserter and being able to roll away into a you know, a gully is still better than the alternative, and that is really saying something yeah, and this is honestly kind of bad.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's like the former high school athlete in me, but it's like you know. Maybe they got like farther than they would have on their own during this little passage. You know that's ruthless. I I know, I know I know, I know, but I mean, you know, like, I feel like that's something my basketball coach would have said it was really hard, hard, but was it, you know, it was worth it.
Speaker 2:I'm like is this Tolkien's version of? But did you die?
Speaker 1:Literally no. That's exactly it. Like you're trying to get to this mountain. I don't. I don't know explicitly if this path led them closer to the mountain. I assume it did, because they were on the path heading, you know like, and they just got scooped up onto the troop um but yeah, it's one of those like well, did you die? Though you're getting closer, I know I I should never no, but coach sports not for nothing.
Speaker 1:No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be like that. I would not be like like that. I hated that mentality, but you know, sometimes it's effective, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Brutal but real. Yeah, yeah, no, that was it. There was a heart-wrenching moment right before they got scooped up First off. Did you know, had you heard the term peaching before? I don't think so. You cursed peaching, sneak theft, sneak thief. Peaching means snitch, huh. So I had to look it up, right, because I'm reading and I'm like I've never seen peach, i-n-g. I've never seen it as a verb. Uh-huh, yep.
Speaker 2:It means snitching one of the orcs to the other, you cursed peaching sneak thief, you can't do your job and you can't even stick by your own folk. Yada, yada, yada, it was. It was orc on orc violence. Yeah, so it means snitch just for your own personal edification. And there, after he, there was only one other. No, I've gone too far. There was a moment where Frodo just winds up telling Sam that I'll try and be a bit quicker and it just broke my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it hurts.
Speaker 2:Right Like he's literally doing his very best, and you know I'll try to be faster. Ugh, just right into the heart. It's terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hurts's terrible. Yeah, hurts a little, yeah, and I think that was really it for that chapter.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music Jessica, who would you name as your mvp this episode?
Speaker 2:uh well, critter, sam, sam, sam. Oh, and did I mention sam?
Speaker 1:yep, you mentioned him, but yep, I agree. Who else is it gonna be? You know what I mean. Like he goes up into the tower, he rescues frodo yeah, he's finding the water, he's praying to galadriel, he's giving everybody hope, like he is doing all the things he is carrying the operation, without a doubt, and I understand frodo's going through some stuff, absolutely, but frodo, yeah, he's just not doing what sam's doing nope, and I sometimes it's really hard.
Speaker 2:This week was a no-brainer for me.
Speaker 1:No hesitation well, it's easy to easier too when you've got two pov type characters right, two main characters that you're following, granted, likeanted shout out to Galadriel, because once again the file coming in clutch. But Sam sneezy, well, not only that, but maybe sending water, maybe sending light. Of course, definitely honorable mention to Galadriel, but it's Sam all the way for me, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, so that is it for this week for us. We would ask that you read, for next week, book six, chapters three through five. We want to say thank you so much for tuning in to episode five of season four of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai and CritterXD. Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod, just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as Critter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We're continuing to workshop new catchphrases through season four, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. Well, here goes listeners. We'll have to leave you for a bit, and trust to luck. See you next week. Bye.
