But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 6: The One with Mount Doom, Actual Romance, & the King's Return!
Jessica and Kritter take on Book 6 chapters 3 through 5. And what a doozy of a read! Our boys make it to Mount Doom (finally!). We also get to see a softer side to Eowyn (thank you, Faramir) and Aragorn fully step into his regal destiny.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess.
Kritter:And we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our sixth episode of season four. We're going to discuss book six, chapters three through five. But before we dive in, what's new with you, jessica, how are you feeling?
Jessica:you, Jessica, how are you feeling? I'm good. I'm good. I can't believe that August is here and this summer, this whole year honestly has flown by. So I'm good, I'm ready for time to just ease up just a little bit, but not the read. I'm all in on the read. How about you?
Kritter:all in on the read. How about you? Um, like, can't say. I agree that I want time to slow down a little. I've been, I've been pregnant this whole year pretty much, and so you know that is coming to an end sort of soon, um, but it would be. You know, things are getting more and more uncomfortable. So I think I would just, you know, like, let time pass at a normal rate and then we'll have the little guy here and it'll be great. So I don't have to be gigantic and hot, okay, for longer than I need to be, basically. So, yeah, that's where I'm at, but yeah, it is nice the read. It feels like we're so close. It feels weird we're getting really, really close to being done with the trilogy.
Jessica:Yeah, tonight's read is specifically like a big deal.
Kritter:Yeah, it's like a big deal, yeah, so let's get into it.
Jessica:Let's get into it.
Kritter:All right. Book six, chapter three Maldum. Hmm, I wonder Maldum. Hmm, I wonder what that could be. Do you think this is the most intimidating chapter heading yet?
Jessica:Yes, the only. So I think that folks who listen to us or watch us are probably aware by now that I don't look ahead, I don't even look at chapter names, that I don't look ahead, I don't even look at chapter names. But this is only the second time in four books that I've looked and seen the chapter title and went I know what we're doing, the only other time being Riddles in the Dark way, way back in the Hobbit. So when I saw this chapter heading when we finished last week's read, I was like oh, oh, my god, it's here, we're here uh, yeah, I mean, we've been traveling around mordor so you know, gotta get there some point.
Kritter:yeah, and here we are. So sam has a bit of an epiphany at the beginning of this chapter that there really is no going back, he is going to die, but from that somehow he strengthens, turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness, nor endless barren miles could subdue. How are you feeling at this point About Sam, about all of it?
Jessica:I loved. I actually quoted it because I thought it was umami, never for long had hoped, died in his staunch heart, and always until now, he had taken some thought for their return. But the bitter truth came home to him at last. At best their provisions would take them to their goal, and when the task was done there they would come to an end alone, houseless, foodless, in the midst of terrible desert. There could be no return. So I I thought that it was very poetic, uh, secondly, alone, houseless and foodless is a very hobbit way to describe a very dire set of circumstances.
Jessica:so true and just very much. Points out, like you said, that it really drilled it home for him and then my, immediately, almost in the same breath. Well, if that is the job, then I must do it, the indomitable spirit of a hobbit, yep, you know.
Kritter:I love it. You gotta respect it. You have to respect it. Uh, so the hobbits? They slowly and painfully make their way to the mountain, eventually shedding their disguises after frodo gets to the point that he can't go on, but refuses to let sam carry the ring for him. Frodo describes his state as naked in the dark, with no veil between him and the wheel of fire. So do you think Tolkien succeeded at making the sound like the worst hike in the history of ever?
Jessica:uh, I mean, he didn't help hiking's cause in any way. Um, that's for sure. Uh, I thought that I I do think that their track is incredible. Um, I think that the shedding of layers of clothes is also very symbolic, right, like they are, um, stripping down to bare bones. Uh, and it it all to Sam being sad.
Jessica:The hardest thing for him to leave behind was his cookware you know, but I think that it's incredibly symbolic of all the things you leave behind when you have a single minded purpose, and you, you know this is. This is what it takes to cross this finish line. It's incredible, it's just incredible, just incredible. And and the visualization for frodo of just seeing the ring of fire. This is at least the second time this is the first of several times throughout this particular block of reading, where it talks about how frodo can't remember good things. He's lost memories of things that are tangible and real and positive, from their, their background, whether it's Sam going oh, do you remember the wine spring? Or do you remember this, or do you remember that? And he's like I remember nothing, it is just the ring, um, and it's just, it's heart-wrenching, it's heart-wrenching for Frodo.
Kritter:So I was wondering if you remember this part from the movies right, and I'll give you the visual that actually is paralleled really well from the books to the movies, where Frodo's like batting away invisible things in front of him as he's walking right Clutching the ring. If you remember this part from the movies when they're approaching Mount Doom, how do you think it compares to the book?
Jessica:I think that it's terrific because I think, that it's two very different mediums, but it evokes the same sense of he's in a different reality. Almost. The writing definitely indicates that there is a veil between those two worlds, and that veil is essentially gone for Frodo, and so he is reacting to stimuli that are not necessarily in this world.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, like when I was reading some of this, as I said, like him, like batting away nothing, you know, like him, them shedding their clothes, like it felt very, almost like beat for beat, granted their time in Mordor in total definitely feels longer in the books, which you know, of course they're gonna, they have to, they have to shorten things and, oh, and, I went to the Lord of the Rings the musical. I forgot to mention this, but anyways, I went to Lord of the Rings the musical and they shortened it even more. You know what I mean, because you're you're doing so.
Kritter:Three books in a play, two hours, two and a half hours. So obviously the movies have more time. Yeah, the movies had more time to work with, but still the books they feel like if the books do anything that the movies don't do, when it comes to the time in Mordor, it's just hammering home how terrible it is there and how brutal and how long the journey had to go. Still, even once they got into Mordor, right, 40 miles at one point, and that was after they had already traveled a ways so far and had already been through so much.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, so it's. I think they depicted it very well, but I think the books made it even worse In the way they made it seem even worse, which makes sense. So, on the last day of the journey, frodo is at the true end of his strength, but sam steps up. I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well. I literally just like kind of a little bit, um yeah, I definitely cried when I read it there.
Jessica:This part, this last, this last half of the book I I'm going to cry a lot. That's what I know.
Kritter:So he carries Frodo finding the burden far lighter than he could have imagined. So how are we feeling about the sequence? Where do you think Sam's strength came from? Or was Frodo truly that light?
Jessica:I think it's both.
Jessica:I think that everything is burned away, right.
Jessica:I think that the physical toll that it took on him to make this trek, the physical toll of carrying the ring and just the shedding of everything, right, like they have been going through this and you know, for months and months on end to one extent or another, but you know, this most recent stretch is like several weeks of unending yeah, yeah, it's crazy Misery.
Jessica:So, yeah, my words are failing me a little bit. It's crazy. So, yeah, my words are failing me a little bit. So I think that he is, you know, as gaunt as you can imagine a hobbit to be and still be a hobbit, yeah, and that also the reading indicates that the lembas bread, when you eat only the lembas bread, it makes you stronger of sinew, and when you don't dilute it with other food. So you know they had gotten through the last of. You know sam had foraged the last of the provisions that had been with the things taken from fear, theramere from him, from their trek with theramere, and they still had some lembas bread provisions and so they have moved on to just Lembas and the Lembas is kind of fortifying him in that way.
Kritter:So once again the elves coming in clutch yes.
Jessica:But I, when he said you know it was you know I'm paraphrasing terribly it was, it was scary how easy it was for him to carry him. I was like, oh, oh god, I know so bad.
Kritter:I loved how sam carried frodo, just like a really great distance, and when frodo thanks him and asks him how much farther, sam's like I have no idea. Like where are we going? I don't know. Like why are you asking me this? He's just literally in it. You know no thoughts, just and I love him for that?
Jessica:I don't know, but I love that it's an honest answer you know so if it doesn't happen on the page, it didn't happen, right? So, yeah, neither sam nor frodo really kind of know their actual destination, so for you to ask him, well, nobody's plugged it into GPS yet, we don't actually know.
Kritter:We're doing our best out here. We're just mozzie.
Jessica:Literally just doing our best, you guys. There was another thing that happened right before that, though, which kind of stuck out to me. That though, which kind of stuck out to me. Um, samwise has a little debate with himself about how things are going and everything, and I got I got some golem vibes from it, and I know that that's not a real yeah, okay, okay, I know I know what you're talking about now, but okay so he's like he could not sleep and held a debate with himself.
Jessica:Well, come now, we've done better than you hoped, began well anyway. I reckon we crossed half that distance and it continues on, and I was like. I feel like this very innocuous conversation is indicative of the toll that this is taking on Sam. A lot of attention is drawn to how terrible this is as a whole and how negatively it's impacting Frodo, and we're all focused on the fact that Sam is carrying Frodo's weight and helping him achieve this goal, and all of that is true, but also like there is an emotional toll to this for Sam, wise as well, that we just don't really ever talk about.
Kritter:He's not really got any conversation companions anymore. Frodo's lost and it's just him, so why not have a conversation with himself, a la gollum and um, yeah, bless his heart. So frodo is increasingly, increasingly burdened like just terrible, but is eventually knocked from sam's grip by you know who. Gollum has returned. As Gollum and Frodo are locked in battle, sam perceives them as something not entirely themselves Gollum, a crouching, ruined, defeated shadow. Frodo, a figure robed in white holding at its breast a wheel of fire. And out of the wheel comes a commanding voice Be gone and trouble me no more. If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire of doom. Where do you think that came from?
Jessica:I have no idea, but I highlighted the whole thing.
Kritter:That was wild Because I was like whoa Like is Sauron like speaking through Frododo here? It was not giving frodo I don't know.
Jessica:It definitely wasn't giving frodo. I didn't go to sauron, I did um. So my wheel of time is showing and I was like, is this a call back to a previous, previous reincarnation of this fight in previous ages?
Jessica:But I like I said it's very Wheel of Time and I'm like I'm in the wrong IP, but still that's how it felt for me. I had no idea what to make of this and it's all brand new information to me. So I, just, like I said, I highlighted the crap out of all of it and I went what does that mean?
Kritter:Literally like well you know, maybe it's not Sauron, maybe it's just the ring, maybe it's you know, because the ring's getting real wily here at the end in Mordor. Or is it Frodo defending the one thing that he is? Oh my God, is it the ring, right? I just thought of that just now.
Jessica:Be gone and trouble me no more. If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire of doom. Yeah.
Kritter:Was it the ring? Was it the ring that? Okay new, that's my new theory, because it's not giving Frodo, it's not.
Jessica:I'm like I don't understand being robed in white.
Kritter:Yeah, but the flaming, you know circle, this flaming wheel, I don't know, I don't know. I guess, if you're listening, like, let us know, where did this come from?
Jessica:is this? No, but spoiler. Bar the crap out of that, because, yeah, I don't want to know until I'm ready to know well, fair enough, okay, yeah, so anyways, theories, thoughts, um, we love theories, we do love theories.
Kritter:So frodo continues up the mountain and sam faces gollum, sword in hand. But now, after everything, when sam has every reason to end gollum once and for all, he takes pity on him and lets him go. How do you feel about this decision?
Jessica:I'm so proud of sam. His mind was hot with wrath and the memory of evil. Like every I thought of this whole time. The constant grudge against Gollum, Granted not unwarranted right Like, but every negative comment, distasteful. Look, all of that was like a bank account that was just accumulating, accumulated, accumulating, accumulating. Like all of that negativity is just building and when it comes down to it, he, he stays his hand, he, he finds empathy in the last moment I agree.
Kritter:Like it hurt me you know, because I've been not team gollum that like it did, it made it made me think like, would I have done the same? Unclear, but good for sam, very proud of sam, especially because we have heard frodo say it, gandalf say it. He may yet have a part to play right, and so I don't know to what level Sam was thinking that. Probably not at all. I think Sam just finally related to Gollum just enough, having carried the ring for just long enough that he understood to some extent what Gollum had gone through, and that was enough for him to take pity on him. Which I just love sam so much. I don't like he is, like everything I wish I was and like everyone was.
Jessica:You know he should, he should be aspired to, everybody should want to be like sam, and I choose to believe that he got there on his own right because frodo and gandalf uh, both directly and indirectly, had had made the case for empathy and staying your hand and provide, you know, being um merciful towards gollum, and he seemed very unmoved every time that conversation came up. So I choose to believe that in these moments, that in this moment he got there on his own, which is twice the reward, yeah.
Kritter:Sam wise for real. He got there. We love him for it. So Sam then followed Frodo and found him at the end of a tunnel boring into the mountain and at the edge of the chasm, at the brink of doom. But there Frodo announced in a clear voice that he was not going to do his appointed task and he put on the ring. Moment golem returned, knocking sam out, and sauron realized his folly, recognizing his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. How is this for a climax? This is amazing, so it was.
Jessica:I think that it was incredibly well represented on the screen Don't get me wrong, but reading it, and I was like I could see in my head all of the ring rays going yeah.
Jessica:And again this read has shown me that you know, all of that misdirection and diversion was, you know, part and parcel for the plan and but also the backstory of not understanding that. I think that Gandalf explained it to us at one point never in the world would it have occurred to Sauron to destroy the ring because it's too valuable to to destroy in in his estimation. So he never would have occurred toon to destroy the ring because it's too valuable to destroy in his estimation, so he never would have occurred to him to destroy the ring. So all of those pieces lumped together make this reveal that much more awesome. Like in that moment he is really completely taken unawares, and it is awesome.
Kritter:Yeah, outsmarted you, buddy. So there, yeah I. But but it's not over yet. Gollum and frodo grapple, and gollum manages to bite the ring from frodo's finger. In his elation, though, he stumbles off the edge into the chasm and all hell breaks loose. So we did not get a hero overcoming the corruption of the ring in the end. Instead, the ring goes down after a series of unfortunate events and a happy accident. How do you feel about that?
Jessica:uh, I, uh, I the Gollum stan wants to feel good about it that he inadvertently, with his last act, did something incredibly kind to the world.
Kritter:Okay, Can something accidental be kind? You know, kind to me implies intent okay, so not kind, but beneficial.
Jessica:Sure, absolutely, yeah, sure, um, I'll take the distinction um in that I I do kind of go back to our smog conversation about how it wasn't the hero winning the day. It was a whole nother set of circumstances that actually won the day. So I feel parallels there. So I think it's incredible that the ring made it in, knowing all of the things that were working against that moment. But it's definitely not the typical, you know, hero saves the day in the traditional sense that somebody might expect.
Kritter:Not traditional.
Jessica:We didn't not get a hero right, we still have many heroes, many heroes hero.
Kritter:Right, we still have a here. We still have many heroes, many heroes, and in this case, I think the heroes are closer in proximity to the ultimate victory than in the hobbit. Yes, it's in the hobbit. We meet somebody and then it's like, oh, that's the guy who's actually gonna save and kill the bad guy. Right, this was definitely more like okay, sam and frodo teed this up, but also so did Gandalf and Aragorn, and everybody had to do their part in this to make it happen. So we got heroes, but it was just that very last part for me where it's like Frodo refused. He did the same thing that Isildur did, essentially, but Gollum was there to thwart him, essentially, and that's why we finally got the ring destroyed.
Jessica:And his last wail of precious, and then he's gone.
Kritter:I was just like well played.
Jessica:Tolkien Well played.
Kritter:In my notes I just say the Nazgul just dissolve, lol. They're like on their way and then, you know, the starts exploding every like the towers start crumbling, whatever they just describe. The nascal is like kind of just dissolving, so nice, get out of here. Um, so then sam carries frodo from the cavern and immediately laments the hand that gollum had made. He seems so fixated on this hand. Uh, frodo notes that the quest is achieved, all is over, and he's happy to have sam there with him at the end of all things. And that's where the chapter ends and thoughts before we move on uh, just, there was one other quote right before that.
Jessica:Well, this is the end, sam gamgee. And there was frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again in his eyes, there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness or any fear. His burden was take away. There was the dear master of the sweet days in the shire, and I just, I loved that the relief having a burden lifted.
Kritter:Yeah it, it was beautiful. It felt good, even though you know they. They think they're going to die. I think it's the end.
Jessica:Um, but at the end he gets to be himself Right, which is perfect, which is definitely something yeah.
Kritter:Okay, Book six, chapter four, the field of core Malin. So we are back with Aragorn and Gandalf. We're hopping around a little bit POV time as the eagles arrive. So you remember that point in time.
Jessica:Pippin's buried under a troll.
Kritter:Eagles are arriving, the Nazgul flee being called to another task. So we can assume Sighting. Oh, sighting, true, another one, one, even though they've already dissolved. But we're back in time, so whatever. Uh, so as saron's attention turns to frodo in the mountain, his armies lose their drive. And then, when the ring is destroyed, the armies flee. This is how, I believe, tolkien described saron's presence in this moment. Tell me if you took it another way. Black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous. It reared above the world and stretched out towards them, a vast threatening hand. Terrible but impotent, for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it and it was all blown away and passed. So was that, sauron, for you?
Jessica:It was. I hope that's right, that's what I thought.
Kritter:I mean, that's what I took that it wasn't explicit, but to me I'm like, yeah, that I see that that's kind of awesome.
Jessica:Nothing in the read indicates that Sauron had a form, right like everything, was him acting through others and he has a mouth, and he has the ring and an eye, yes, and I some kind of metaphorical eye, perhaps in the, in the books, whereas it's more physical in the movies um, so yeah, no, I totally took this as sauron okay, pretty, pretty epic.
Kritter:I love that. It leans out a vast threatening hand terrible and then, but impotent, and then just blows away. Love it, bye, bye. So g Gandalf immediately asks Gwaihir and his eagle friends to bear him on a task. Right, gandalf is focused and Gwaihir is happy to oblige, as Frodo and Sam are convinced. Their time is up and Sam wishes he could hear the tales that would be told about nine fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom. Gwaihir appears on the horizon and sweeps down with his fellow eagles to bear them away. So Gandalf finally gets to catch up with Frodo and Sam, like we suspected he wanted to do when Faramir told him he'd seen him, at least I suspected. Satisfying resolution. Or would it have been better for the story if Sam and Frodo had made the ultimate sacrifice?
Jessica:No, I'm never going to vote for that. Okay, no Fair. I'm way too attached to my hobbits. I'm like no, just no. I think they gave up enough. I really do, as much as I do understand that trope and why some writers really prefer it. Um, I know they gave up enough.
Kritter:I'm a happy endings girly person, like I want you know. You hear Sam thinking about Rosie, cotton and the Shire. You hear Frodo talking about, like all of his. You know Bilbo and everything. You don't want that to just be done like be gone.
Jessica:Well, and even Gandalf and Gwaihir rescuing them, two small dark figures forlorn hand in hand upon a little hill. Yes, I want them to be saved. Save them. Yes, save them, dear God.
Kritter:I agree, I completely agree. I just know some people are like, oh yeah, well, what's the point if no one dies? Boromir died, that's all we need. Sorry, sorry, den thor died, who, honestly? Who cares? But like we, oh, they died. They didn't did die, so that was a good one. People died, it was that enough? People died. Um, okay, so sam wakes up in a bed in Ithilien this is another place that I had to be like what? Where Gandalf at his side, to his amazement, because, remember, they still thought Gandalf was dead. Frodo also nearby, teasing him for sleeping in. So I'm not going to lie, I was really defensive for Sam at this point, like that boy deserved a rest. Okay, so how do you feel about this reunion with Gandalf?
Jessica:So this felt like the flip of what happened when they went to Rivendell, right? So it was Frodo abed, and Samwise has been loyally by his side. I don't know if you can hear it. We've got some excellent thunder happening.
Kritter:I heard I just faint, you can hear it We've got some excellent thunder happening. I just faintly, I heard something yeah.
Jessica:So I think that it's a great flip of that that now it is Frodo waiting tentatively, attentively for Sam to awaken. So, yes, I do think that it's fun loving and that he totally deserves rest, but I think that that's what that was about. So, this whole scene definitely gave me vibes of the waking up in Revendell scene and the Bilbo goodbye tour in the Hobbit, honestly. So there was a lot of that going on for me in the last half of this read okay, yeah, I can totally see that.
Kritter:Yeah, uh. So frodo and sam are led to meet with the king and, it turns out a bit of a ceremony was prepared for them. They are praised with great praise, even by aragorn, who kneels before them and places them on the throne. A bard also sings them a tale of frodo, of the nine fingers and the ring of doom, and sam weeps with happiness having gotten everything he wanted. Any highlights from this celebration?
Jessica:um, I still can't get over the fact that Aragorn is a healer, so they reference that Aragorn is the king, healed you and now awaits for you. The other thing there were two other again really throwaway comments. One a little bit more somber Aragorn's talking and he says it is a long way, is it not, from Bree, where you did not like the look of me, and a long way for us all. But yours has been the darkest road. And then, sam, they are brought back their raiment and his elven cloak was all healed of the soils and hurt that it had suffered so like. It means nothing. Right, their cloaks mean nothing, just the way that it was worded I thought was awesome.
Kritter:Well, and I mean the first statement that you said didn't mean nothing, right, the acknowledgement that they went through more than anybody.
Jessica:And they had the darkest path.
Kritter:They had the darkest path. Like, yeah, everybody had a rough time, obviously they had the darkest path. Like, yeah, everybody had a rough time, obviously. But Frodo and Sam, the fact that these two little hobbits are getting mad props from the most powerful politically at least man in Middle-earth Good, they deserved it, they earned it. So, as you said, sam and Frodo are clothed in their more proper clothes, frodo taking Sting back at Sam's insistence, and they head to a feast where they're reunited with Merry and Pippin. At one point we find out because Gimli makes sure everyone knows that he was the one to find Pippin buried under the enemy on the battlefield. Do you find Gimli to be a little overly boastful, or is the way he is just about right?
Jessica:overly boastful, or is the way he is just about right? I mean, he probably is right, but I just attributed it to his dwarvish nature.
Kritter:He's a proud dwarf.
Jessica:I kind of have the same thing, yeah I'm like porqué no lodos, right, like both things can be true, he's boastful, but he's a dwarf, so it's fine. It's funny just like they, Just like they were more materialistic. Again, when you make generalizations it can rub people the wrong way, but I think that also Gimli is beyond what I would consider a standard issue. Dwarf right Like Gimli is a war hero in his own right and has seen some stuff and who respects elves right so these.
Kritter:His horizons have been broadened. He just still has some of those little dwarfy tendencies, and dwarves are just gonna dwarf every time he does. It makes me laugh. Yes, never forget, I was the one that found you. I'll never forget what a hobbit foot looks like, just like such a good.
Jessica:He's so funny and such a random thing to find. You know, like you know, you just like picked him out of a pile. I mean, of course you did sure you did.
Kritter:Uh, so legolas also keeps talking about the sea, which makes me sad, but I'm also kind of happy for him. I guess, I don't know, I'm torn about that. We'll see where that goes. He's just very wistful at this point, um, and then the armies eventually head back to minas tirith via ship. And that's the end of the chapter.
Jessica:Thoughts before we move on uh, I did like the fact that mary and I are we are Knights of the city and of the mark, as I hope you observe. Uh.
Kritter:I thought that was just a little bit of snark.
Jessica:I liked it. Um, and then there was just again, just this little brief snippet of all of them getting a chance to sit and just swap stories, um, and that vibe was exactly right. Uh, finally have the remaining members of the fellowship together and able to talk about what their individual, how they got to where they are, um and it. You know it's just a paragraph, but I loved it because I loved the mental image that it gave me. Yeah.
Jessica:It's nice Reunited and it feels so good, basically okay, uh, yeah, and they were talking about the city of men, of gondor, last memory of the westerness that had passed through the darkness and fire to a new day we're getting hope, it's giving, it's giving hope, it's giving hope and i's giving hope and I dig it Same.
Kritter:So book six, chapter five the Steward and the King. So we go back in time again to just after Aragorn and his host left for the Black Gate and were met with Lady Eowyn chafing against the walls of the Houses of Healing. She learns that Faramir is the new steward by rights and seeks him out, hoping he'll release her. How did you feel about this initial conversation between Eowyn and Faramir?
Jessica:So I'm going to say that it's really really hard for me to go on the record with an anti-female sentiment, but I don't like Eowyn much in this chapter.
Jessica:Already like right out of the gate, right out of the gate. This started off on the wrong foot with me, so I do understand that. You know she is a shield maiden. She's a warrior at heart and this is and she feels, and and that's not, uh, the the sentiments that she's expressing are not gender specific, right? Any warrior that goes into battle and thinks they're going to die is then faced with the trauma afterwards of now I've lived. Now what, right? Like that's not.
Jessica:I don't begrudge her that, but everything about the way that this was framed, I guess, just rubbed me the wrong way. I cannot lie in sloth, idle and caged, and I just was like it's not lazy to be resting. We're healing, healing, yeah, yeah, like I don't have, I have not died, and battle still goes on and I'm like I wouldn't like this, even if it were a male character saying it. So she's entitled to those feelings. I just, for whatever reason, I started off on a really wrong foot and then I would have you command this warden and bid him let me go, she said. But though her words were still proud, her heart faltered and for the first time she doubted herself. She guessed this tall man, both stern and gentle, might think her merely wayward, like a child that has not the firmness of mind to go on with a dull task to the end. And when I read that I'm like but you are you are being wayward and you have just gained some self-awareness.
Jessica:Embrace it. Awareness is a very important first step. So it could, because then that devolves it. You know that's her speech to Faramir when she's asking you know, and I do love the fact that she says you know, I'm not, it's not for want of care, the houses of healing are taking excellent care of me, but it's because of this, of this um, and so when he counsels her, that you know, our lot is essentially patience and the front line could find us very soon.
Kritter:um, you know she devolves into well, but my room doesn't face eastward oh, so was that a little, uh, childish also for you, or were you like oh yeah, okay, yeah, no, you didn't like that.
Jessica:So again we have so few female characters that I don't and maybe I'm just having a rough day right Like, maybe Eowyn is just not my jam in this moment because I loved her heart and fervor on the field but outside of combat I seem to have taken issue with her a little bit, Just a little whiny this time.
Jessica:Yeah, and I just like our other heroes. She has been through something incredibly traumatic and has all of this to go with. But I'm like why is your behavior, for some reason, really grating on me? I'm sure it says more about me than it does about Eowyn.
Kritter:Eowyn and Faramir have the same situation and Faramir is handling it much better. So I think that's fair to be like. You need to get it together. I think it is funny, though, because two episodes ago, you kind of predict this right, because when aragorn was like, uh, what was it? Mary, mary can, mary can take a walk, like mary can do basically whatever he wants. Uh, but aoin and faramir, they need to stay in the house of healing for 10 days, and you said, if I recall, something along the lines of because they might not because they might decide they need to go, get out and do stupid stuff.
Jessica:Whereas Mary is smart enough to stay, stay put.
Kritter:That's an out here and it's like, yeah, I want to, I want to follow the company that's going to the black gate like days after. Yeah, no, girlfriend, what are you doing?
Jessica:So the flip side of that to soften that criticism is that I do very much like Faramir in this section and I do like the effect through this chapter that Faramir has on Eowyn, that he softens her and offers her a different perspective that she will actually listen to.
Jessica:Because, as we know, aragorn and Theodenoden maybe not Theoden, but definitely Aragorn tried to offer her a different perspective, and she was not willing to receive that message, whereas this time, with Faramir, does seem to connect with her a little bit more yeah, so I thought in their first conversation it was really funny because he like very respectfully drops some major hints that he's into her.
Kritter:And they literally, in this first conversation, fly over her head. She does not respond in the way that you would like. I'm being hit on, so I'm going to respond. No, she just doesn't even notice. But then, eventually, as you said, time passes, eowyn and Faramir grow closer, walking the garden together, waiting for news, until, finally, one day, they observe what we know to be the destruction of Sauron, and they receive the good tidings. Faramir takes on a stewardship role to prepare for the coming of the king, and Eowyn falls back into apparent despair. Finally, faramir confronts her and asks whether she loves him. Her response is complicated. This is. This, though, is the most blatant romance plot we've gotten in these books how, how is it working for you, or how did it work for you?
Jessica:Once. Once Faramir broached the topic I was in. I'm into it because I feel like he is saying he is using his high level of perception to call it out. He's saying the quiet parts out loud, right. He's like you wanted somebody else to love you. He has gone to battle. He, you know your love is unreciprocated, but I tell you plainly that you know I love you, yeah. And she volleys back with I don't want anybody's pity. I'm like it's still great. It's a little bit. I'm sorry.
Kritter:No, honestly, her reaction like she's like I did want him to love me, but now I don't want anybody's pity. It's like now what are you saying?
Jessica:Yeah, and I mean I don't know if you noticed, but like he's a catch dude.
Kritter:Oh my God, jump on this opportunity. What are you?
Jessica:doing the heart wants what the heart wants. But aragorn was very clearly not reciprocating. Um, and and faramir, and these moments, I, I, I was glad that they were saying the quiet parts out loud. I guess I'm I don't want to talk in circles, but I thought that it was good. Um, I, when he tells me that he's doing romance, I, I see it. Um, I think that before it was just a little too subtle for me uh-huh, uh-huh, and I do.
Kritter:I like faramir man, I love this guy he really knows he knows that eowyn was in love with somebody else, right, he knows that she's kind of a tough nut to crack here and he gives her this speech even when she's like I don't want to be pitied by anyone. He gives her this speech. That's like I don't pity you at all, like I think that you're incredible. Um, and basically, with his wise, incredible, loving words, he warms her heart and heals it and she, she becomes better. Right, she changes, she changes her ways, she knows what she wants. Like it worked for me, I don't know. It's like, especially because, especially because I don't chalk up her like childishness or whatever to her being a woman, I I would like to attribute it to how much she was going through. Right, she had witnessed Théoden die, she had. She was definitely under the what do they call it? The black sickness or whatever.
Jessica:Yeah, the black shadow.
Kritter:Yeah, something like that. Like she she of all people was the most burdened by it. Right, she was the one who dealt the final blow. Her sword was there, like she did it all. Um, so she has every right to be traumatized and not in a good place, and that's kind of why I gave her a little bit of a pass. Um, and the fact that fair amir brought her out of it just felt really romantic to me that means that love heals all fair, amir heals her exactly I know that and it makes him kind of kingly right, because the hands of this king, or the hands of the healer, I don't know, I don't know.
Kritter:So, okay, aragorn and his company finally arrive and faramir announces him with many, many titles I'm going to say them momentarily.
Kritter:And I will ask which do you think are the coolest or stand out the most to you? Okay, okay. Aragorn, son of erathorn, chieftain of the dunedain of honor, captain of the host of the west, bearer of the star of the north, wielder of the sword, reforged, victorious in battle, whose hands bring healing, the, the Elfstone. Elessar, of the line of Valandil, isildur's son, elendil's, son of Numenor that last part is all kind of clustered. Basically it's just his lineage.
Jessica:Bearer of the Star of the North.
Kritter:Okay, so that one caught your attention. Do you? You don't. We don't know what that is. That's why I caught your attention, yeah I looked funny you should ask I looked it up because I was like wait, that didn't happen in this book, right, it didn't. No, did you look it up?
Jessica:no, okay, just checking no, no, I'm gonna finish this series strong man good, okay, so we've got a mysterious title. Yes, do you want to know the ones I was able to work out?
Kritter:do you want to know where you can find the answer to what?
Jessica:that is well so. Star of the north is hyperlinked, so I bet I could go to my thing and find out. Oh, I just mean like the book, is it in silmarillion? It's not, is it in this book?
Kritter:no biscuits. It's in the book of lost tales. I know it well. It might be in the silmarillion, but whenever I looked it up it was like this is something that we find out in the book of Lost Tales.
Jessica:Okay, well, since that's not a book we've agreed to read, yes, please. I would love to know the story on the Star of the North.
Kritter:So it's let's see, I'm going to do my best here. It's basically Ellen Deals. It's like this hold on, I'm going to look. I'm just going to look it up because I don't want to get it wrong.
Jessica:Star of the North. The overwhelming urge to click on the hyperlink now and see where it takes me. But I'm not gonna.
Kritter:Gotta be careful. Elendil Myr was the name of the Star of Elendil or the Star of the North Kingdom, a great gemstone that seemed to burn with an inner light mounted on a slender chain of mithril. To burn with an inner light. Mounted on a slender chain of mithril, it became a token of royalty throughout the kingdom of Arnor, having been the first crafted and presented to the High King of Gondor of Arnor. Elendil the Tall, I won't say we find out in the sorry Unfinished Tales, not the Book of Lost Tales. We find out in Unfinished Tales that Aragorn found the Elendilmere in the Tower of Orthanc. So after Sauron's defeat, aragorn, with the help of Gimli, finds a hidden door and a steel cabinet in which they discover a small golden tube without any inscription, containing the original Elendilmere.
Jessica:That's wild, I know, so he only wears it on special occasions.
Kritter:The original Elendilmir. That's wild, I know. So he only wears it on special occasions. And yeah, I'm so glad that you pointed that out.
Jessica:Wait, wait, wait. When does he go on that quest?
Kritter:Whenever they're.
Jessica:Sauron just got defeated.
Kritter:You're right, so how can he?
Jessica:already have that title.
Kritter:Wow, how can he have that? Aragorn finds the original Elendilmir in the Tower of Orthanc. After Sauron's defeat, he goes to Orthanc.
Jessica:Now I need a map because now I'm like how far away is Orthanc? You know, this is time past right.
Kritter:They waited until May to go into the city. It doesn't matter, they go to orthonk. Well, never mind, um it's okay maybe see. The thing in the book, though, is he is described as wearing a gem on his forehead, and so to me, I thought that's the ellen deal. That's this what we're talking about ellen deal mirror the ellen.
Kritter:But maybe it's not, maybe they just are calling him that because that's like a title that they give you know, kings from the line of ellen deal, and then he eventually goes and recovers it. But I swear in this book they did describe him as wearing a gem on his forehead. So now I'm like, okay, is there? Do we have a continuity issue? I know we have some major lord. I'm sure that's not true. I know we have some major lord of the rings. People like in our discord.
Jessica:Plus year old story like it's okay but I want to know I know now I want to know all the things, but I I got to finish this story first.
Kritter:You're right, sorry about any other story. Any of you people know what's going on here. The bearer of the star of the North. When did he get it? When did he go to Orthak? How did he find it? Let us know.
Jessica:Okay, I'm like, do we phone a friend? Do we reach out to our fun Lord of the Rings friends who are better at obscure stuff, like Dawn or Mary, maybe, maybe I'll make a TikTok about this and just be like, explain this and invite what's happening and invite, yeah, maybe that Tolkien, that German Tolkien guy, could tell us.
Kritter:Yeah, somebody's going to tell us the mystery will be solved.
Jessica:And.
Kritter:I'm sure I could probably like do the research, but who wants to do that?
Jessica:No, I'm kidding, I might do the research after this. All right, so when it came time for Aragorn to put the crown on, that, faramir had recovered for him. He asked that Frodo be its bearer and that Gandalf be the one to crown him, because he was the mover of all that was accomplished and it was his victory. First of all, yes, agreed, but did this make you feel any type of way that it was incredibly smart? I don't think that. I don't think that any of them would have faulted him for doing it another way, but it speaks to his character that he wanted to do this in a way that highlighted those that had helped all of them get to this point.
Kritter:He is a. He is a level-headed guy, Like he's fair, he is a just dude, in my opinion. Speaking of Aragorn gave faramir ethelian to be his princedom and passed judgment with respect to baragon's crime assigning him to faramir's guard. How are you feeling so far about aragorn the king?
Jessica:I think we kind of just touched on that. I dig it, I absolutely dig it. I think that, um, that it is just right, right, like he can't stay in Minas Tirith because of the things that happened, but, um, he found a way to honor the um intent of the law, um, without punishing Baragond for ultimately doing the right thing wishing Baragond for ultimately doing the right thing.
Kritter:Yeah, and can I just say and this will apply for like many things that we find out here later in this chapter and future chapters but Tolkien, he loves tying up loose ends. He's a loose end king Like never, ever did any like you know. End and let people guess what happens next couldn't be told. There's no such ending on like for the fun. You know the end of the story. There's no, there's no guessing. He's not going to leave you wondering about anybody. So far that's what it seems like.
Kritter:So, though the people of rohan departed to get their fares in order, affairs in order, aragorn asked the fellowship to stay in minas tirith a while. Frodo starts to get a littleres in order Affairs in order, Aragorn asked the Fellowship to stay in Minas Tirith a while. Frodo starts to get a little antsy. But Gandalf reminds him that it had been less than a year since he'd set out from the Shire. It feels wild to me that all of that happened in less than a year, but also not wild, because Tolkien kept filling us in on the timeline as we talked about.
Jessica:How did? That little knowledge bomb less than a year hit you. I had the same thing where I was like what can't be, but also I guess, yeah, I guess. So you know he did tell us along the way. But that's why I had that moment just earlier in this episode where I was like it's really only been a few weeks on this particular part of the trek and I'm like a lot has happened in this book, a lot has happened across the trilogy less than a year?
Kritter:absolutely crazy. Um, so then gandalf, kind of like, takes aragorn off into the wild and he has a heart to heart with him, letting him know that the third age had passed and the fourth age would be an age of men. He lets him know that, along with the elder kindred, he would also be departing, for he was the enemy of Sauron capital E and his work was finished. He also points out to Aragorn that in that hidden place was a sapling from the line of the eldest of trees, the same kind of tree that had withered in the courtyard of Minas Tirith. Any thoughts about this convo?
Jessica:I thought it was wild that Gandalf's entire destiny was tied to his opposition of Sauron. So it was complete news to me that he was done in the world because Sauron was done in the world. So that was a big piece of knowledge to kind of wrap myself around. And of course there's a magic tree and of course there's one just hanging out in the back 40.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Why would there not?
Kritter:be. Yeah, I mean the other one's dead, so he's gotta have a king tree but you know, aragorn is nothing if not a child of prophecy.
Jessica:So it you know, it feels accurate that you know, once he comes into his own and reclaims his kingdom, that the tree would present itself to him.
Kritter:Yeah, I agree. I will say that this is. I'm going to briefly, like very, very briefly, talk about Rings of Power. So when I read this part, this enemy of Sauron with a capital E, I thought that it lent itself to the stranger being gandalf, because, you know, we still don't know who he is. Season two hasn't started, um, and I've heard, maybe he's a blue wizard, because we don't know anything about the blue wizards and they went off into the wild and whatever. But this to me, because the rings of power is so focused on saauron and his rise, right.
Kritter:It just felt. It felt very much like okay well, if there's an enemy of Sauron, you would think that he would kind of at least be somewhat involved in Sauron's beginning, right? Sure, and so that's part of me is like okay well.
Jessica:I've always thought it was Gandalf.
Kritter:You've always thought it was Gandalf. Of course it's like a self-fulfilling, you know, like, oh, I'm so right.
Jessica:But also, you know if the stories, you know if the source material links the two inextricably. There's a lot to be said for that.
Kritter:Why would it not be? That's what I'm saying. So anyways, official prediction, slightly backed up by the text, pretty excited about it. Um, all right, so we end the chapter. A host of elves, including galadriel, kelleborn, glorifindil, elrond and arwen, show up. It was the day aragorn had been waiting for. Aragorn and arwen married on midsummer's Day. Thoughts on this last part of the chapter generally, before we pick an MVP.
Jessica:Did anybody ask Arwen if she wanted to get married?
Kritter:What I mean? She can't. What do you mean, I guess, yeah, we don't know anything about her.
Jessica:So again, arwen hasn't even spoken on the page. She wrote a note. She did.
Kritter:Or wait, did she write a?
Jessica:note, or did she pass?
Kritter:a message.
Jessica:Yeah, she passed a message with the banner that she stitched for him.
Kritter:Yeah, that's the most talking that she's done.
Jessica:She doesn't actually talk. Yeah, and I'm like, did Elrond just bring her and hand her over, like as? I guess was want to do in certain societies. Um, so yeah, I I want to be super excited about this. I have yet to know if arwen even likes aragorn.
Jessica:Okay, sorry, I hadn't even thought about, I made him a cool banner, I know, but like I'm so enamored with with the Arwen Aragorn love story how it was portrayed in the movies and I have gotten none of that, yeah, so I hope that there's. There's a love that transcends time. I just would like to see it a little bit before it's over yeah, the musical did better with it too.
Kritter:They played up the romance more. Also she spoke.
Jessica:She had some good songs, even so you know not to end on a cranky note, but I was like hey, that's okay I hope she consented, that's all we can only assume or hope, hope and assume, okay.
Kritter:So we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music j Jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Jessica:So I'm going to say once again, sam, this time though most notably for his act of empathy and compassion for Gollum, which not only saved himself but saved Frodo, because without it Frodo would have gone all the way to the dark side and it would have been heartbreaking and awful. So he saved himself and his very dear friend Frodo and ultimately saved the whole world. Yep, his very dear friend Frodo and and that, and ultimately saved the whole world.
Kritter:Yep.
Jessica:Because Gollum's actions are what made the ring finally be addressed. So it's Sam for me all the way.
Kritter:A thousand times. Yes, I agree with you, a hundred thousand percent. Not only that, which is huge, huge him overcoming his hatred for golem and finding mercy in his heart, wild, incredible statement like testament to his just amazingness he also I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you, I just I love that part so much. He literally carries the world on his back in these chapters. And so, not just giving me letting Gollum go free and then having that be ultimately the reason that the ring goes into the fire, but like, ring wouldn't been near the fire If Sam hadn't taken that, taken Frodo and just done what needed to be done. Right, that epiphany. I'm not coming back from this, but it doesn't matter, I've got to do this. This is my task, like I love Sam so much.
Jessica:All the other undying love things too. You know that I can't carry it, but I can carry you. All of those things go without saying. But you know, know for like proof on the page like these are my reasons.
Kritter:Like sure, aragorn, very just. King Faramir, lovable, like romantic, incredible, Gandalf, wise, you know, everybody has several people have some really solid chapters, but Sam has the chapter and that's yeah, that's yeah. So if you, uh, those of you out there, if you want to weigh in on who you think the mvp is, because, yeah, we only have one like primary sam and frodo chapter here out of the three, so it really could be. I mean so I I wouldn't be surprised.
Kritter:Save the whole world, it did. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you all picked gollum, though, because I can't trust you.
Jessica:I thought about it, but ultimately it was Sam's choice.
Kritter:It was yeah, because without Sam, gollum would be Well, technically, sam would have been the one killing Gollum, but without Sam's choice, gollum could have been dead, and so that wouldn't have happened. Right, it was all Sam. Sam was the one, but if you pick Gollum, more power to you, I guess. I'm curious, I'm very curious. Comments on YouTube or in Discord. Let us know who your MVP is this episode.
Kritter:Okay, so we would ask that for next week, you read Book 6, chapters 6 through 7. And I'll say thank you so much for tuning into our sixth episode of Season 4 of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai and me, critterxd. Don't forget to follow us at ButAreThereDragons on YouTube, instagram and TikTok and ButDragonsPod just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as critter xd and shelf indulgence. That is it for today. As always, we're workshopping new catchphrases for season four, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. We're glad that you're here with us, dear listeners, here, at the end of all things bye.
