But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 8: The One with the Scouring of the Shire & the Last Farewell!
Join Kritter and Jessica one last time (for now) as they finish their read of Return of the King, with a discussion about Book 6, chapters 8 & 9. The mountains are misty and so are our hosts' eyes. There's a villain in the Shire, and Jessica is surprised (even though she probably shouldn't be)! Our Hobbit adventurers soon put things right with all the skills they acquired in their time away, and ultimately say their final goodbyes. Did we mention, the hosts are (mostly) fine?
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as your resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our eighth and last regular season episode of season four.
Kritter:We're going to discuss book six, chapters eight through nine, the end of the book, before we dive in. Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling?
Jessica:I'm a little in shock that we got here in what I feel like was pretty fast time. Even with a break, we got here pretty quick. August is here and kids are going back to school and seasons are passing and it just feels very timely with the seasons that are, you know, with the things that are changing in the story as well. So it made me a little bit nostalgic.
Kritter:Yeah, I think that's fair. How about you? Yeah, I was just trying to think like. I got a notification the other day that it was the one year anniversary of our Twitter account and you know we opened the account in anticipation of the podcast. So we have been doing this like releasing episodes for less than a year and we got through four books, which I feel like you know for some podcasts. That's not bad, not at all. It's a solid pace. We did take, you know, breaks in between the books depending on what we were doing right for cosplay crafting for for life.
Kritter:Uh, so I'm pretty proud of us that we're here, um, and yeah, here at the end of all things, I know, although there is, there is the, is the epilogue or whatever. What are we calling them? The appendices? The appendices which we are not mandating for people, though someone in my comments, somewhere, maybe on Instagram, I can't remember did say that we get more Aragorn and Arwen if we look into the appendices.
Jessica:I think that was in your Discord, I think somebody mentioned that and I will say I peeked a little bit at the appendices and I probably will still, but they read very much like appendices.
Kritter:So we're not forcing anyone to read them, but we will dabble, maybe later.
Jessica:I don't want to be held to any strict standard.
Kritter:Exactly exactly babble. Maybe I don't want to be held to any strict standard. Exactly exactly so it is exciting to have the trilogy proper completed after you know today, so totally okay.
Jessica:So with that in mind, we've got a little psa we'd like to give before we get started.
Kritter:Tell us your MVP moments. Our trip through the trilogy is almost at an end, and the mountains aren't the only ones that are misty.
Jessica:It's true, as we draw to the close of this chapter, we want to reminisce with you about our favorite moments, and we really want to hear about yours. So what are your favorite? But Are there Dragons moments from any of the seasons we've done so far?
Kritter:Was it the time Jess had to look up every single agricultural term?
Jessica:Or maybe when Critter got us some orc names, something else.
Kritter:Hit us up in the comments on YouTube and the but Are there Dragons? Channel, on my Discord or on social media and you'll likely get a shout out during our upcoming wrap party.
Kritter:Yes, and with that being said, book six, chapter eight, the Scouring of the Shire. So it's just the four hobbits now, and as they arrive at the Brandywine Bridge they find it barred by a great spiked gate. No one can enter between sunrise and sunset, on the orders of the chief, aka Lotho, living up at Bag End. Were these the vibes you expected for the hobbits' return to the Shire?
Jessica:No, zero percent, did not expect any of this. Starting with the title the Scouring of the Shire I'm like what are we doing? What's happening? Yeah, question mark. And I did think that it was noteworthy that Frodo points out about Lotho, uh, making a comment about him dropping the Baggins. At least, so you know, family, what are you going to do? We've all got one, am I right? Uh, you know, I just I related to Frodo in that moment of you know, he's that relative he'd rather not have.
Kritter:Yeah, at least. At least they're just calling him the chief and not chief baggins. Uh, yeah, I guess whenever you saw the chapter title how, what kind of feelings did you, I?
Jessica:I was completely perplexed. I did not know what to expect. I was like, wait, we should be going to a happy place. And I will say that I threw back to bilbo, right like bilbo came home to chaos and he had been declared dead and all of his belongings have been stolen. Um, this feels more ominous and menacing than that. Yeah, um, you know the the way is barred and gated, uh, and, and the tone is much more severe.
Kritter:So it turns out, lotho has even taken some ruffian men into his employ, though Mary manages to send one, bill Ferny, on his way with the help of a swift kick from Bill the Pony, his namesake. I'm kind of digging in this chapter. How saucy and commanding the hobbits are. Do you think they can? At the time this was happening, when you were reading, did you think they could keep this up, or were you thinking they're just kind of like fronting?
Jessica:I don't think that. I feel. I didn't feel as though they were fronting. I thought that it was. This is their street cred, catching up with them right Like this is the Shire. They have seen some stuff, as we've elaborated on many, many times, and this is them kind of coming into their own right. So we talked about how Gandalf has said I'm out, I'm done.
Jessica:You guys got this and I honestly do believe that they've got this. So it does feel a little saucy compared to how kind of, like I said, a little ominous. It seems that everything's closed down. Um, it doesn't seem like a laughing matter, so it is a little blustery, but at the same time. I know they've earned that.
Kritter:Yeah, 100%. They're changed beings. So the hobbits stayed the night in a less than welcome environment and then, on their way to Hobbiton, encountered a troop of sheriffs. I cannot get over how they spell sheriffs by the way, it is the cutest way you could possibly spell sheriffs. So the sheriffs are ready to arrest them for gate breaking and other trumped up yet mildly accurate charges. The sheriffs arrest them, but the four hobbits are so plainly in charge it's comical and they eventually part ways with the sheriffs without issue. How did you feel about this little?
Jessica:jot. Uh, I loved it. I think that it was perfect, um, to show like these, not to belittle, the way that the sheriff's actions would have been received by hobbits, who typically are not well traveled, you know. Uh, but to some, to some hobbit folk who had seen some stuff probably a little less impressive, um, yeah, I think that the way that Tolkien took the time to describe they have regulated down everything, they are on rations, they can't have company, they are counting out how much fire would they get?
Kritter:The chief doesn't take a beer.
Jessica:Yeah, it is doesn't take a beer. Yeah, it's just. It's crazy, um, how just right it is like it's a perfect recipe for oppression, um, to take the joy out of literally everything. Um, so that was that was very apparent to me as I was reading it. What's worse? I did have a question for you, critter. Okay, if you channel your inner hobbit, okay, what's worse? No food or no tobacco.
Kritter:Inner hobbit. It's got to be the food. It's gotta be the food. Just because there's a like their whole day is is kind of scheduled around all of their different food, you know adventures, whereas the tobacco feels more, while necessary, still kind of a luxury. Right, food is, food is necessary.
Jessica:Tobacco is slightly less necessary so it's like the dessert they have at the end of their day.
Kritter:Exactly, I mean both devastating that they're being limited in this way. But yeah, I've got to say food. What about you?
Jessica:That's where I landed, too honestly. So reading all that, I was just like that's a way to just take everything that makes them happy and and limit them. You know, um, above and beyond the destruction of the areas in their town and their homes and all these other things, everything is tailor-made to ruin the joie de vivre that you that I associate with hobbits speaking of like you.
Kritter:You mentioned that. So they make it to frodo and sam's stomping grounds. Right, that I associate with hobbits, speaking of you mentioned. They make it to Frodo and Sam's stomping grounds, hobbiton or whatever, and it's nearly unrecognizable Trees gone, houses burned down, smokestacks and brick and ill-favored men in place of hobbits. Is this the kind of trouble in the Shire you expected when?
Jessica:Butterbur mentioned it.
Kritter:No, this is beyond it. No, this is beyond that.
Jessica:Yeah, no, this is beyond that, like, um, a few miscreants, a few ruffians, if you will. Okay, okay, but this comes down to like hobbits spying on other hobbits, which just gave me such a gross feeling in the pit of my stomach. Um, I really it was. It was awful. So this is, in a lot of ways, far worse than I would have expected. Another thing about the charges, again, because you're an audio book consumer and I'm a written consumer, the list was capitalized. So you're arrested for gate breaking, tearing up the, the rules, assaulting gatekeepers, trespassing, and, and all of the major words are highlighted like titles, and it's just. It tickled me as I was reading them. And then they lead them. You know the, the four hobbits that are in custody lead them, uh, you know, on a merry chase through the woods, essentially.
Kritter:And aren't the hobbits all mounted too? So they're like mounted riding horses and they've got a little herd of sheriffs behind them. Even one of the farmers I can't remember which farmer looked and just kind of laughed like who's guarding who here? Who's arrested who? I can't even remember. It just made me laugh, it was funny.
Jessica:And somebody I don't I didn't write laugh, it was funny, um, and somebody I don't I didn't write who it was because of course I didn't, but there was no gainsaying. For such masterful travelers and again in context, they are incredibly world traveled comparatively, but also in their own right, like they've been to many nations. They've been on the prowl, they've been on the move for two years, like they've been on the. They've been on the move for a while, um, and so I just I had pointed out that, you know, that's just a great way to illustrate how much more physically seasoned they are, that they can go for hours on end and the sheriffs are essentially huffing and puffing and trying to keep up because they only got one break.
Kritter:Poor guys, poor little sheriffs. So the hobbits? Speaking of how worldly and well-traveled and equipped they are, they make quick work of skulking ruffians who seem to be following orders from some sharky character, rather than Lotho Sackville Baggins. Rather than fighting, they merely rolled a nat 20 in intimidation. You know, they've got the armor, they've got the swords. Frodo realizes at this point that Lotho is likely a prisoner and instructs his friends to avoid hobbit casualties in any future. Fighting at all costs. As fun fact, no hobbit had ever intentionally killed another in the Shire. So are there any standout moments for you in this ruffian encounter?
Jessica:There was a quote in here that really struck home. It says this was Frodo and Sam's own country and they found out now that they cared about it more than any other place in the world. Just very relatable, you know, once you, once you leave home a little bit and you do get a little bit of mileage on you, you, it helps kind of snap certain things into perspective and I feel that very keenly for them in this moment. So I thought that it was a great call out by tolkien, um, and then frodo is actually really quiet in these interactions as they are doing their intimidation check against these ruffians, um, and I find it actually a little bit more threatening and I dig it um, which is a different perspective because, typically we like our hobbits, innocent and pure, but when it comes to threatening somebody's home, I fully believe in doing whatever it takes to preserve your homeland.
Jessica:Like everybody deserves to feel like their home is safe. So I just he was very quiet. He was, as you mentioned, very vocal about no life loss, no killing whatsoever. Throwing back, like in my mind. It immediately made me think of him telling Sam how he'll never, you know, swing another sword again. Things like that. Yeah, that's where he's at mentally and I respect it, but at the same time makes him no less interested in defending the shire right, like we got to do this, but we got to do it clean, basically.
Kritter:So finally, mary, pippin and sam more or less begin the mobilization of the shire. Mary puts the horn to good use, summoning allies, sam visits farmer cotton's farm and sees rosie for the first time in a year, and pippin leaves to rally the toques who had been, you know, challenging what was going on all along. They had been toques, they had been yeah who had been you know, challenging what was going on all along.
Kritter:They had been Tooks. They had been yeah, they had been Tooks. So eventually, a band of ruffians shows up and the hobbits make quick work of them, killing one and taking the rest captive. Did you ever think you'd see the day when the hobbits of the Shire form an army?
Jessica:No, but I think that it throws back to things that Gandalf has said about. You know, they really are an amazing people and I didn't highlight it, but there was a great quote in there about how they closed ranks around the ruffians and the ruffians didn't know their peril. And the ruffians didn't know their peril.
Kritter:Um, because just because they're agricultural food, loving smoking people doesn't mean that they won't protect what's theirs yeah, yeah, and I was kind of worried because you know, there were like it's not a ton of men at this point compared to how many hobbits there were, but at the same time, like, reach is important when it comes to fighting, um, but they were smart enough to kind of lay this trap where they could stay back, they could, um, use bow and arrows instead of like fighting hand to hand necessarily the whole time. And so they uh yeah, marion pippin and their little, having having had a little bit of army experience, they really were kind of smart and how they, how they handled it, I think, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, and those hobbits, you know, don't have battle experience, right?
Jessica:like I think that. I think that if we go back to the prologue, it talks about how hobbits haven't been involved in combat in centuries, so I think predating the establishment of the Shire, if I'm remembering correctly, yeah, nobody's been to battle um. So it accents how important it was to have them come back and have all of that experience to kind of make helpful suggestions, because obviously heart counts for a lot. But it doesn't overcome. You know, long arms to your point right, exactly so I.
Kritter:I noticed this also whenever I was at the lord of the rings musical. This part came up and I forgot that it was in the books. But it's when Rosie kind of like accuses Sam of being late or like I expected you earlier when you took your time, didn't you Did that like offend you, because I remember like my back went straight up when she said that Excuse me, girlfriend.
Jessica:Yeah, like my back went straight up when she said that, excuse me, girlfriend. Yeah, so I I had to go back and reread it because I was. She was like I thought you were gonna be here in the spring and I was like, where are you going with this? What are you? Um? And then I think that once I reread it, and of course, then she proceeds to chase him down the road and say don't forget to come back. You know, I chalked it up to this. This was her way of showing I've been waiting for you. This is her way of articulating that. But in that moment I was like wait, what? She's poking him? She's poking him, but you know what? We have an active female participant in actual romance and we'd love to see it. We do love to see it.
Kritter:Yes, we appreciate the like. I don't know she's zesty, right she is. She's not going to roll over, which is great. So when you first read about Sharky to completely change subjects sharky to completely change subjects. Bent on cells, senseless destruction, no concern for pollutants, gears and wheels and outlandish contraptions, did you have a guess as to who he might be?
Jessica:well, listen, critter, I gotta tell you, when I was rereading this section, as I was preparing my notes, um, full disclosure. No, I didn't. Okay, as I was rereading it, I felt real dumb. I felt real dumb. So there were a couple of things. First off, rereading the section for last episode where he basically threatens the shire uh-huh, right over the head, um, and then, uh, when, who was it that was talking to the frodo? Frodo was talking to the ruffians and said your precious master is a beggar in the wilderness. I passed him on the road. Another reference the frodo knew yep, way over my head. And then the Sharky thing. I wrote down Sharky, hmm, interesting name, yeah, um, yeah. No, I'm gonna say I was blissfully unaware.
Kritter:I went into this section of read just as fresh as I do all of the other ones so whenever I um went to do the outline because I am an audiobook early, but when I do the outline I do it with a physical book I noticed that there was a uh footnote for sharky, like about its origin. So it happens later, but because we're talking about his name, it's Orcish. It's probably from Orcish, which is Sharkoo, which is Old man. So in case anyone was wondering where Sharky came from, according to my book's footnote on the matter, it's Orcish. Well, it's a derivation of Orcish, meaning Old man, man. So go forth and do that which you will. So, um, I think tolkien has, intentionally or not, made his stance rather clear again. In my opinion, when it comes to technology and its negative impact on the environment and the welfare of people.
Kritter:Is this him once again hammering that home, talking about, like the change in the mills and the smokestacks and the bricks and the manufacturing and all that stuff?
Jessica:I? I think so to a certain, to a certain extent, but at the same time he's talking about unnecessary industry. Where they are, they have not. They don't have any more grain to mill. To justify the second mill. Um, and that they are running all the time even though there isn't grain, just to, uh, essentially soil the water uh downstream.
Jessica:Um, so I do still think that it is some of that uh bias showing through in his writing, but I think that it was to illustrate the point of unnecessary manufacture and unnecessary industrialization, just for the sake of um who knows, for whatever yeah.
Kritter:Overproduction, whether it's evil based on evil or greed or whatever. Yeah, I get, I get. I can see what you're doing there. Um, so we do find out that your favorite hobbit, lobelia sackville baggins, told the ruffians off when many other hobbits were afraid to do so, and she got dragged off and imprisoned for her trouble. Did this begin to change your opinion of her at all, or were you like good?
Jessica:Put her in prison. This was hard. First off, the reminder that she is Lotho's mom yeah, but it did make me feel bad for Lobelia and I didn't like it. Okay, I don't like it. Okay, I don't like it.
Kritter:Yeah, but nobody should be putting anybody's aged mother in in prison yeah, in some ways she kind of reminds me of my grandma, because she can be, she's very german and so she's very I don't want to say severe, but kind of severe, like in some ways, right, she will just tell, say it like it is, or at least how she perceives it, and sometimes the way she perceives it is pretty harsh, right. And so, yeah, in this, this particular chapter, where it's like what are you guys doing? Well, we're gonna build some sheds up there for Sharky, who said you can do that. You know, like, get out of here. You got that. So it's her, it's so her.
Jessica:But also let's point out that she was being protective of Bag End. So for me that edged it a little bit closer, like that was another point in her favor that you know she is of a personality and disposition where she will say what she thinks and will talk back to them and not just cower. I have a lot of appreciation for that as a personality trait and that it was done in defense of Bag End.
Kritter:I think that's probably the most redeeming quality about it. That's fair. I'm just playing devil's advocate because I completely agree with you that it is redeeming.
Jessica:I feel like we all have one in our family. You know what I mean. Yeah, we all have one in our family.
Kritter:It could also be her like. I love that she's defending Bag End Don't get me wrong but this bag end that she fought essentially tooth and nail to try to get out of bilbo and frodo's hands right. So I'm like, of course she's defensive of it. She's been craving it for her whole life, yeah, decades, but still we want to see bag end preserved.
Jessica:So thank you, lobelia, for your efforts yeah, so I I was sad on her behalf and I didn't like how that felt.
Kritter:Okay. So ultimately, pippin returned with the rest of the Tooks just in time for a huge band of ruffians to descend on the Hobbit forces. A literal battle ensues. Nearly 70 of the ruffians and 19 hobbits were killed. I don't know why, but 19 hobbits dying at this battle of the bywater hit me harder than hearing about casualties from prior battles. These books, how did the battle hit for you?
Jessica:um, I think that it felt more. It felt like the stakes were really high for a people who had left war behind, right like we just spoke to the fact that hobbits haven't really had anything to do with war since the establishment of the shire which I'd have to go back to the prologue and read but that's like a thousand years before. You know a very, very peaceful, settled community and yeah, it's probably not rational, but losing 19 of those peaceful souls definitely stings and definitely seems to carry more weight. Ruffians kind of know what they're in for. There's always that's my mindset a lot I guess I shouldn't say that that's my mindset very often that if you live a rough life then you kind of know what the stakes are and the hobbits were really just looking to defend their homesteads yeah, yeah, can't blame them for what they did.
Kritter:So I did. I did note that, um, mary slaying the leader and mary and pippin gaining just like insane fame as these battle leaders. I thought that was a fun side effect, captains. So you captains there. So I said this before, but their time with the armies of Gondor and Rohan, they left an impact, it imprinted itself on them, so good for them. You know, the two little goofballs have grown up a little bit in these books.
Jessica:I love the fact that Pippin flashed his King's colors when the ruffian was talking smack about king's messengers. I loved that. I loved that he was just like. That was the last straw. Okay, well, I'm a king's messenger, so now what are you going to do?
Kritter:Yeah, you don't believe me? Let me show you. So the ruffian's being handled. It was time for the hobbits to pay a visit to the boss, but they found old Sharky instead Sharky, as we mentioned, being Saruman. This interaction was a purely unpleasant one that ended with Wormtongue murdering Saruman, the hobbits shooting Wormtongue down as he fled, and the discovery that Lotho had been murdered at Saruman's orders. Any standout moments from this for you?
Jessica:There were a couple. So for this interaction specifically, I really wrote Saruman. I feel dumb. That's my note. Okay, I really wrote Saruman, I feel dumb.
Jessica:That's my note, Uh and Saruman makes a comment about Gandalf and says when his tools have done their task, he drops them, alluding to the way in which he finds the hobbits here without Gandalf to accompany them. Um, and then the last. The biggest piece of this is that Frodo, still a major advocate for redemption. After Grima kills Saruman I'm sorry, after Saruman and Grima are told to leave, he tells Grima you don't have to go with him, you don't have to follow him, you can still turn away with him. You don't have to follow him, you can still turn away.
Jessica:um, and that was very reminiscent of golem type things uh for me that you know proto's like you can turn from this path. You don't have to stay on it proto is such a little softy which I get, I totally get like his conversations with gandalf.
Kritter:You know who are you to decide whether someone should live or die, all that stuff. It really it made an impact on him for sure and he saw firsthand that, like him and Bilbo, both having mercy on Gollum, ended up saving the world right.
Jessica:But the fact that that part of him is still intact after this incredible journey that they've gone on, Just you know, softens my heart a little bit.
Kritter:Saruman is such a little sneaky snake though.
Jessica:You know what I mean.
Kritter:Yes, he's like you can't kill me. If you kill me, I'll cast a shadow on land and will haunt you forever.
Jessica:And I'm like really yeah, if my blood is spilt in the Shire and I'm just reading that going.
Kritter:Ew, you're so awful, I know, purely unpleasant. I feel like when they've been talking to him it has been bad, just bad, like he's awful. He's the actual worst it turns out, the actual worst. Yeah, he's terrible.
Jessica:So any final thoughts about this chapter before we move on um, there were a couple of moments that I just wanted to throw back to.
Jessica:There was one, when, um you mentioned it, that frodo realized faster than any of his friends that lotho is likely a hostage at this point, that you know these ills are being done in his name, but he has zero control over the situation. Um, and then the not clash is a strong word the differing viewpoints between Frodo and Merry Frodo being very staunchly anti-violence and do as little harm as possible and only attack in the most extreme need to protect Hobbit life. And Merry saying essentially like that's great in theory, but we lucked out that last interaction and the idea that we are going to be able to retake the Shire from this negative element without violence is unrealistic at best. And I I think that that's I feel like. I feel like that's a very real conversation that would happen between brothers and arms, regardless of what race you are, regardless of what conflict you're from, you know, like that felt just very real and rooted in real life yeah, proto is idealistic, mary is practical, which is so funny.
Kritter:Based on where they started, you know, I don't know They've both changed a lot.
Jessica:Then Sam rescuing his gaffer and bringing him over to the Cotton's house, and the gaffer's biggest complaint being that they ruined my taters.
Kritter:so we know where samwise gets it from, and that is precious and the fact that was it frodo who told the gaffer like this is one of your, your sam is like one of the most famous people in the world, and the gaffer's like I don't know about that. I thought that was nice. That frodo was like trying to talk him up to his elders.
Jessica:Yeah, it was. It was very sweet the whole interaction with the gaffer. And then the last thing was that even Sam's vision in the mirror had not prepared him for what they saw. And then the reveal that they had cut down the party tree. They had done so much damage to the Shire as a whole but cutting down the party tree even I felt that I know it hurt. I was like oof that's bad.
Kritter:How dare you?
Jessica:So, yeah, those are my last thoughts on Chapter 8.
Kritter:Okay. Book 6, chapter 9, the Grey Havens. This is the final chapter, so it's time to rebuild, but first things first, it's time to release the prisoners. Fredegar bulger, the former mayor, and lobelia sackville baggins were among the incarcerated, and lobelia seems changed. She gave Frodo bag and pained by the loss of her Lotho and bequeathed him her possessions when she died, to help those whose homes had been taken by the troubles. So ultimately did she manage to win you over?
Jessica:Yes, but it it burns, precious it stings. Uh yeah, no, she clearly had a change of heart. Um, and you're never too old to learn it's true.
Kritter:And whenever she came out of the cells it mentioned something about how people were like cheering her on or whatever, and it made a note to be like she wasn't used to being admired or something like that. And I was like, oh, that's so sad, like she was unpleasant.
Jessica:So yeah, I mean I guess she wouldn't have been admired, but at the same time and think about what it feels like to walk in those shoes and be perceived in that way, and the interactions. Yeah, absolutely All of that. So, yeah, another little redemption arc.
Kritter:Yeah you love to see it, so the oh yeah, go ahead.
Jessica:I was going to say the absolute sugar rush I got from Fred Agar being there.
Jessica:So I just it threw me. It was a great way to start this chapter, right, like this is the last chapter. This is hard. I actually didn't take a lot of notes on this chapter. I think that the denial had just set in so strong. Yeah, it was really hard for me to take notes, but starting this chapter with Fredegar threw me immediately back to you know the fellowship and just how concerned genuinely concerned I was for poor Fredegar and to help, and he got left to you know what could have been a really, really dire consequence. So all of that came rushing back when I saw Fredegar's name on the page and so it was like a genuine, like sugar rush.
Kritter:I was like oh, my God there he is.
Kritter:So the new houses, the brick ugly houses, were taken down in the old rebuilt, and sam took it upon himself to see to the replanting. He used the gift from galadriel one kernel of dust for every tree replanted, and the silver nut to hopefully replace the party tree which had been senselessly cut down at Saruman's order. As we said, his efforts were a resounding success and the new party tree was none other than a mallorn, one of the finest in the world and the only one west of the mountains and east of the sea. How did this hit for you? Any standout moments from the rebuilding of the shire?
Jessica:um, I love the fact that, uh, you know, tolkien took the time to tell us the evolution of the names that they were, you know. So they part of the rebuild was what are they going to name it? Um, and so they just, ultimately they went through a couple of iterations that are a little bit more. They just, ultimately they went through a couple of iterations that are a little bit more wild or loosey-goosey and ultimately they settled on New Row. And just moments like that are so they're authentic to me. Right, like you go through something that for the Hobbits it doesn't even need to be qualified, like that was a traumatic event for that community. That was a traumatic event for that community and part of that rebuild effort is the naming and that puts me squarely in my Hobbit feels, which I love.
Kritter:Yeah, what was the? It's New Row, but then it's jokingly called Sharky's End, right, or something like that.
Jessica:Yes, that's what they called it. And I dug it Same.
Kritter:Same Good for them. So quite possibly the most precious fact in all of Tolkien's books. Sam ends up marrying Rosie Cotton and they end up moving in with Frodo at Bag End At.
Jessica:Frodo's request.
Kritter:At Frodo's request.
Jessica:So did you adore this as much as I did? I did, but I did have like a deep sense of, uh, foreboding not deep, but like I I did. I have a little catch in my throat. I was like he's establishing him as his heir, you know, for whatever that looks like, you know he's going to be, he's going to inherit. This is him setting them off to inherit. Bag End. This is him planting the seeds that he can walk away.
Kritter:So that did ping you, so you do notice some things.
Jessica:Some things, some things usually weird, traumatic stuff, but yeah, yeah.
Kritter:Well, so another super, unbelievably precious fact Frodo helps Sam name his first child. They name her Eleanor for the golden flowers in Lothlorien, because I guess it's a tradition for hobbits to name girls after flowers. Yeah, that was his suggestion. So another just such such a precious fact that I love so much, I don't know, uh, and the fact that sam was going to call his first son frodo is also just like the cutest thing ever.
Jessica:and then he comes to frodo so conflicted, like he wants to do the right thing and and, and frodo's just like. This is not. You know, this isn't a problem, just give her a flower name and you know frodo's not fussed about this at all. And I I love that for frodo as well, because those are the kinds of quiet, sweet moments that he thought he would never see again yeah, and here it is.
Kritter:And here it is. So frodo wraps up his work on the red book Bilbo gave him to finish and he hands it down to Sam to finish the last few pages. Bilbo had written a fair amount, but Frodo even more. And the titles that Bilbo had workshopped and I'm going to ask you your favorite included my Diary, my Unexpected Journey there and back again, and what happened after. Adventures of Five Hobbits, the tale of the Great Ring compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends, and what we did in the War of the Ring. Frodo titled the book the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King. The book the downfall of the lord of the rings and the return of the king, as seen by the little people, being the memoirs of bilbo and frodo at the shire, supplemented by accounts of their friends and the learning of the wise, together with extracts from books of lord translated by bilbo and rivendell. So whose title is the best? And were there any that you particularly liked, even if they weren't practical?
Jessica:uh. So the two that I like the best are there, and back again. And what we did after, yeah and uh, the war of the ring one. I don't have that one memorized. Those two are my favorite, but I do think that frodo's ultimate title before the semicolon, uh without all of that? Yes, without all of that, which I understand. You know they're, they're documenters and you know I, I get it, I see it, they're my people. Um, but everything before the semicolon I thought was very good.
Kritter:Well, you know downfall of the lord of the rings. Yes, the king, yeah, yeah, I like it too, and I like how it ended up being. You know the title of the book. So the suggestion here is we are reading something that was written by Bilbo, frodo and Sam, ultimately Right, which I think is so nice. I don't know. Yeah, it warms my heart.
Jessica:So maybe you want to go back to the red book references and the prologue and kind of pull that together now.
Kritter:True, yeah, in the prologue, and kind of pull that together now. True, yeah, I guess now that we've gotten its whole journey, it's the full circle moments, right for sure. So Sam and Frodo take off for a short journey under the guise of Sam seeing Frodo off on a trek to visit Bilbo in Rivendell. But when the hobbits encounter Elrond, galadriel and Bilbo while they're still in the Shire, the jig is up. Sam realizes Frodo is planning to leave, and Frodo's words of encouragement, when Sam is so obviously dismayed, I thought were very touching. His time may come to follow Frodo as a fellow ring bearer, but for now he can be one and whole with Rosie and Eleanor and little frodo and even more children. He'll stay mayor as long as he wants, the most famous gardener in history and as busy and happy as anyone can be. So tell me, did this make you happy or sad?
Jessica:oh, my god, I bawled so hard. Um, it made me happy. I will say, each time we read I'm I'm misting up now Just thinking about it Each, each of these sections that we go to there, it's like just another slight twist of the perspective for me. Yeah, I did not realize that it was. Or, to me, after reading it, this felt so much more like Frodo was giving Sam the quest to live. So I don't feel like that was the vibe. It was about saying goodbye was about saying goodbye, but in this instance, reading it, I, what I walked away from it feeling like was that sam's quest is to is to live and to tell their story and to pick that up and carried it on so that it continues to matter. Yeah, yeah that's a really hard thing yeah
Kritter:sorry no, it's okay. It's like, I agree, sam was so sad and so torn and you could tell even before they got to the point where, like they were actually splitting up, right, they were talking about sam leaving just a little bit for the shire, like obviously I have to get back. You know, I've got rosie, I've got the little girl. I wish I could come with you. And frodo, kind of, he gives a hint, right, he's like I, we need you to be whole, like yeah, you're so conflicted, you're so split in two and and you should be whole, and yeah, and this was him giving him that. I guess it was just oh, so freaking, precious and amazing, and then heartwarming and sad it was. Yeah, breaks your heart, but also like fills it up again. It's wild. Um.
Kritter:So they arrive at the gray havens gandalf is there, also planning to depart, and, lo and behold, mary and pippin show up, noting that this time it wasn't sam that gave frodo away. Remember sam was the spy. Yeah, but gandalf himself. And gandalf gives us another one of my favorite lines well, here at last, dear friends on the shores of the sea, comes the end of our fellowship in middle earth. Go in peace. And my favorite part, I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil.
Jessica:So how are you holding up at this point, because I'm as soon as mary and pippin came back, it was all over again. Um, yeah, because obviously that would have been the longest ride home ever For Sam by himself, yeah, so I thought that that was incredible Because they you know, the three of them are the ones that are the ones that lived, the ones that carry the story forward, and yeah, it was just more waterworks. It was good stuff, it was good stuff, pretty much good stuff.
Kritter:We love it. So the ship sails away, frodo eventually passing beyond a gray rain curtain turned all to silver glass and beholding white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise, and Sam, mary and Pippin eventually ride back together in silence. Mary and Pippin branch off to Buckland and Sam to Bag End, where dinner and Rosie and Eleanor are waiting for them and he says to end the book. Well, I'm back, and how is that for the ending to the trilogy? It's fine, I'm not crying it's fine.
Jessica:I don't know what you're talking about. It was an incredible end. It was a great way to end, as it should.
Kritter:It ends with hope yeah so warm, just because, as it should, it ends with hope. Yeah so warm, just a lovely like. That's what Sam was looking forward to the whole time. Right, he kept thinking of the Shire and wrote God, why am I? It's ridiculous, I know, not even looking at the book. Right now I'm looking at an outline in google drive.
Jessica:Come on, really sorry for all the snuffling for our podcast listeners, I'm real sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I do think that it's an incredible way to end the story. It is the fruition of everything that they. It throws back to a thing that Frodo says, as he's saying goodbye, that you know, in order to preserve this thing, somebody must give it up, and so, you know, that's that ultimate sacrifice from Frodo. Yeah, think of you know a conversation we had in a different episode about the ultimate sacrifice, and was it enough that they didn't die on the, on the hills of mordor, or the, the hills of foothills of mountain doom? And I think that it is because I think, in terms of ultimate sacrifice, I I would be hard-pressed to find a person who says this doesn't meet that requirement.
Kritter:Yeah, unless you're dead inside.
Jessica:You might be dead inside.
Kritter:I don't know, yeah, and it also ties into one of Bilbo's titles right there and Back Again, and Sam's back, right. Yeah, frodo and Bilbo went on their way as ring bearers and Sam may follow them, but for now he's got a life to live, to carry, to carry on, which was great, yeah.
Jessica:So final thoughts before we pick an.
Kritter:MVP.
Jessica:It was a ride yeah, it was a ride for a story that I thought I knew inside and out.
Kritter:It was a ride and it was worth it, amen. Okay, so it's fine, we're all fine. Yes, so we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music, jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Jessica:So this is actually a little bit harder for me this one, which sometimes it is when there's less action, some of the lesser plot points, when sometimes there's less action, some of the lesser plot points I feel like for me it has to be a tie between Mary and Pippin. So I pick Mary to be representative of Mary and Pippin because I feel like they very much stepped up in terms of mobilizing the Shire and coming up with a plan and leading them. Not that Sam and Frodo didn't participate, but I really feel like Merry and Pippin took the lead in raising the Shire and defending them and I love that for them. I will say that I had several heartbeats of pause where I considered heartbeats of pause where I considered picking Sam, and at least we'll mention him as honorable mention for um.
Jessica:You know, his quest now begins as the Herald of the fourth age and and you know, kind of carrying that memory forward so that it honors and and so that, uh, you know, so that it was all worth it essentially, uh, so I was going to give sam honorable mention for that, but I think I have to stick with, uh, mary okay, um well, we are on a different path here.
Kritter:I. It was tough for me too. I kind of, because again there's no like bombshell dropped moments in this read. But I am going to give it to Frodo Because while he was like I don't want to call him a dud during the fighting, but he wasn't the battle leader, he wasn't wielding a sword or whatever.
Kritter:He was the moral compass of the operation, which I appreciated, which I appreciated. There were also some moments, like earlier in the read, where, when they were engaging with the sheriffs and the guardsmen and stuff like that, he had some like good thoughts and like funny lines and stuff like that whenever he was challenging them. So I appreciated that. But mainly it's for his compassion for, for his enemies, for sam, um, and yeah, just some of the stuff that he his encouragement to sam, his invitation for him to move, for them to move in him declaring sam his heir, him talking sam up to the gaffer. There were so many moments that I just like he really warmed my heart and gave me hope and, and so I think of all the people. He didn't do the best in the fighting, but he had another role and I think he played it really well.
Jessica:Excellent, okay, so crazy. That's it for this book. As we said, we're going to probably each of us individually look at some appendices, but we are calling this a wrap on season four, so we would like to invite you to please catch our season four wrap party stream on August 29th at 8 pm Central on but Are there Dragons YouTube. I would say once again, thank you so much for tuning in to episode eight of season four of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai and Critter XD. Don't forget to follow us on but Are there Dragons on YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod, just one T on X. You can find us on social media as CritterXD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We are continuing to workshop new catchphrases for season four, so let us know on social media how you feel about this last one. In the immortal words of gandalf go in peace. I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil bye. Thank you.
