But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Season 5 Episode 2: Fourth Wing: Does it Live Up to the Hype? Chapters 1 through 19
Join Kritter and Jessica once more as they start off in a new format with a new book, Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. In episode 2 we discuss the new world, the new format, and chapters 1 though 19. We meet our protagonist, Violet, and are thoroughly immersed in her world and all that goes with that. We visit some of our hits, as well as some misses, with a little dash of prediction and wild theorizing!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and chat about it. I'm your host, Critter.
Speaker 2:And I'm your host, jess, and we are here to talk about the first half of Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yaros, chapters 1 through 19. But before we jump into it, critter, good to see you, nice to be back.
Speaker 1:We're back we are back, feels good. It feels good to be back, it's been a long time.
Speaker 2:It was nice. I've been looking forward to this and I purposely waited. I closed my book. I was very diligent, I followed the rules and we know that I struggle with that. So I've been eager to hear your thoughts, because this was a lot of book compared to what we've done.
Speaker 1:I know. I know and fun fact for everyone out there, we didn't mention this in the intro, but neither of us have read Fourth Wing, and that was part of the reason we decided to read it. Not only did have neither of us read it, but it's so pervasive. People are obsessed with these books. It's all over BookTok. There was a midnight release for the most recent book, Onyx Storm, which I think is the third one or five Sure. Yeah, we're actually so unfamiliar.
Speaker 2:Well, I stopped looking things up. We put a moratorium on looking anything up.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So, yeah, and we're here and we're going to figure out what the hype is all about, basically, and we're halfway through book one to do it. So how are you feeling about the hype, jessica?
Speaker 2:Well, what I was going to say to that comment that you just made is I know folks who don't even consider themselves to be fantasy readers who really have hyped this story and I feel like, after being halfway through that kind of tracks, I think that I can see where this would be really palatable as almost like a starter series. I don't consider this to be young, cause it does seem like it's going to have some well, it's got curses in it. I noticed that we we've got some F-bombs right away and it is notorious for having spice.
Speaker 2:So even though the protagonists are young, I don't know that I would consider this. Ya, I don't know, how it's classified, because again I stopped looking things up, but yeah, I think I could probably put this in the category of starter fantasy for somebody to cut their teeth on. Intro.
Speaker 1:I could see that I kind of disagree with you on the YA thing. Okay, I could see that I kind of disagree with you on the YA thing. Okay, maybe it's only because we've only read the first 19 chapters and if you're reading along and you're curious, there is no spice. I mean, there's nothing explicit. They talk about, you know, the first years getting it on with each other, but it's very literally behind closed doors.
Speaker 1:It's like a character will come out of a door flushed nothing has happened on the page nothing has happened on the page yet that, combined with the age of the characters and just the overall tone, you know there's a lot of like my mom's making me do this and you know, like all that stuff that just like it's just reading ya to me so far so we'll see. And it's also, it's even, it's even giving, like hunger games, love triangle, you know what I mean? Like there's the safe one and then there's the bad one, you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:So there's like all right, so we're just gonna get into this okay sorry, sorry, so you know what, and like I do want to say, well, I guess. So this is hard. How did you enjoy reading it?
Speaker 2:I thought it was good, like it's a good enough book to finish. I would not DNF this book. It does feel juvenile, not YA a, so I, and maybe that's a distinction, that only I make, and I am by no means a literary critic uh I can't write anything.
Speaker 2:I can't even sign a holiday greeting card, so, like, this is no criticism to the author, it's just stylistically, um, and maybe some of that is just a little bit of bias that I carry, because I have heard that there is spice coming. So, to your point, nothing has happened. It's all happened behind closed doors and comments have been made about characters having interactions uh right nothing has happened on the page, uh, but maybe I'm just kind of ready for it.
Speaker 2:Uh, alert, alerted to it, not alarmed, um, but it does read kind of juvenile, which I would counter some of the other stuff I've read with younger protagonists. We wait for them to age up in that too, but your, your take is your take and you're completely entitled to it. I think that, um, I think that I don't hang out with 18 and 19 year olds very much, so I think that it might be right on the mark.
Speaker 1:That's fair, that's fair. So I actually, as far as like how I liked it, right, because I don't want fans of the book to listen to this first part and be like, oh, they hate it and move on, Right, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I think this might help those people stick around. I have been telling people that I've seen in person who know that I'm reading this for the first time. I'm a high fantasy girly, right, I just read Lord of the Rings for this podcast. I'm.
Speaker 1:The Wheel of Time is my favorite book series, right. I'm not as much into the romanticist though I have read a court of ACOTAR but so, like, that's where I'm at, that's my baseline. So I came into this as someone who doesn't read this genre as often, even though technically it's still, it doesn't feel as romanticist yet Because, again, there's not spice yet. But what I've been telling people about this book is that it is like, is that it is like McDonald's, and by that I mean you know that it's bad? No, but don't hear me out. You know that it's bad, but you want it anyways. You want to keep eating it, right, the fries, the burger, whatever. I love me. A good road trip, mcdonald's stop.
Speaker 1:And this is that for me, I read the first 19 chapters faster than I've read almost anything. Right, I inhaled them. I actually I read them like three weeks ago and then I reread them, like in the last couple of days, on three times speed, because I had forgotten everything that had happened, because I just inhaled it so fast and I was like what even happened in this book? Like I, high, high points, but nothing else. Um, and when I finished the 19 chapters I wanted to keep going. Yeah, so to the people who were like oh, you guys are naysayers, you're hating whatever, I enjoyed it, even though quality wise I'm not sure that it's like pristine in that regard, and I hope that doesn't sound condescending.
Speaker 2:I think that there's a case to be made for when you're used to reading really dense and just challenging high fantasy like high fantasy is not for everybody. Challenging high fantasy like high fantasy is not for everybody. And you and I have cut our teeth a lot on big, thick tomes you know not to be like a name dropper but Lord of the Rings, wheel of Time, the Stormlight Archives, which you and I both really enjoy, those are like thousand page tomes that we have inhaled and so we are more used to reading these really thick, convoluted with lots of plot and this and that, and I, for what it's worth, really kind of liked that this is more straightforward, just a more reasonable serving size.
Speaker 2:I read half a book and went well, I want to keep going Because, to your point, I do want to finish it. I do want to know the rest of the story. I think it's an adjustment for somebody who is used to reading really thick, convoluted stuff, like you know. You and I specifically because I know you and I have both been reading a lot of that over the last five years.
Speaker 1:Right right, right, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So, no hate, hate, just acknowledging the differences yeah, it's different, and I'm still pretty new to the romanticist aspect as well um I have started akatar on the side on my own, and so that's kind of a newer aspect too. Not that there isn't romance and some of the other things that we even have in comment, but it it's not in common, but it's not at the forefront like it is with some of these other series. So yeah a little bit of a shift.
Speaker 1:Just a bit Honestly. It's, you know, other than just calling it McDonald's. You could describe it as beach fantasy. It's a beach read, it's a vacation read.
Speaker 2:I brought this on my honeymoon. I brought this book in my. Kindle on travel days I sat by the pool with this book. It was great. You can put it in your beach bag and you can take it with you. But I think that in other aspects it really holds up. I felt like the stakes are there. I'm invested in the character. She's a little young for me. I think that says more about me than it does about her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm in it. I'm ready to keep going Same, because I want to see the close of the first story right Like I want to see how it goes for the second half.
Speaker 1:I'm eager and I feel like I'm versed enough in romanticism to and and let me know if you had the same instinct and be honest but the moment she saw, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Zayden Zayden Ry, zayden Zayden Zayden.
Speaker 1:Ryerson Ryerson. Well, the audiobook is Zayden Ryerson, the moment she saw him.
Speaker 2:It's like an eight-sentence description. He's tall, with wind-blown black hair and dark brows. The line of his jaw is strong and covered with warm tawny. The highlighted note next to it is love triangle.
Speaker 1:Okay, exactly, and hold on, because I also have a piece highlighted from this. And. And when I say okay, so the whole point of that was to say, the moment we got introduced to him I thought, okay, enemies to lovers trope. Like, no doubt in my mind they're gonna bang, not even no hesitation. It's literally written on the wall. But it made me laugh and I don't want the haters to be like, oh god, they're set so high and mighty, but like I have to read part of this because it's so, it made me laugh out loud whenever I heard it. Okay, so give me a second. Um, here we go, you've got the windmill.
Speaker 1:Black hair. Okay, and his eyes. His eyes are the shade of gold, flecked onyx. This contrast is startling, jaw dropping. Even everything about him is his features are the shade of gold, flecked onyx. This contrast is startling, jaw dropping. Even everything about him is his features are so harsh that they look carved and yet they're astonishingly perfect, like an artist worth worked a lifetime sculpting him and at least a year of that was spent on his mouth, like I've never heard of. Like you know how you got like like butt guys and boob guys and like girls. Girls like biceps, girls like smiles. Never in my life have I heard that like a mouth person, but she that's not the only time that she's talked about his mouth specifically, so anyways, I laughed out loud. At least a year of the sculptors time was spent on his mouth. I'm I don't know. Did you have the same reaction to this description? I?
Speaker 2:did, I did, but at the same time, I'm fine with keeping it light, like I. I really think that that was, and we've talked about this ad nauseum in other episodes. I am a very passive reader, like okay, so that's the tone, I'm gonna match the vibe and I'm gonna roll with it and we're gonna see but I had the same exact thought. Like this is gonna be an enemies to lovers, he's absolutely gonna be the other leg of a love triangle oh yeah, without a doubt, I actually.
Speaker 1:So I read the next part of this that I wanted to share, which is just later on in this, in this on this on the next page. I read it to mr critter because I was like this is a description, this is how the prose is going thus far, and it happened so early in the books that I was like I don't know about this. So, um, we've got. Even the diagonal scar that bisects his left eyebrow and marks the top corner of his cheek only makes him hotter, flaming, hot, scorching, gets you into trouble and you like it. Level of hot, can we not like? Let's think of another. I said, I told that to Mr Critter and he's like like the Cheetos.
Speaker 2:Flaming hot Cheetos.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, there's a couple of times in this book that made me pause and laugh, because I was just like, come on, guys, there's gotta be a better way to describe him, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I will say, in that moment I felt like we were hearing it in violets again juvenile juvenile is not meant punitively right Like, but when I was 18, 19, yeah, I think you're the, I think, yes, I think you're right yeah, I think you're the. I think. Yes, I think you're right. I think my inner monologue was pretty young too.
Speaker 2:So in my mind what happens in those moments is we are hearing this from violet's perspective, and her perspective is still a baby compared to mine at this point. Not, and again not, um, not negative, you know, I'm just acknowledging the fact that 19 year old me was a way different animal than today.
Speaker 1:You're not wrong. You're not wrong. I just had to point a couple of those things out because they made me chuckle.
Speaker 2:Kind of like I did with Tolkien right, Like there are times where I chalked it up to the voice of the narrator. I did here as well, just in a a different way that was probably the way I should have done it.
Speaker 1:Instead, it took me out of the story.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it was really late sometimes like that's very blatant and it was very early on and I'm like, okay, so we're adjusting.
Speaker 1:okay, 19 year old girl. 19 year old girl. Keep telling yourself got it, got. Keep telling yourself that, got it, got it, yeah, yeah. So we've got the obvious love triangle incoming, and it's only become more obvious as the as the 19 chapters went on. Right now they're forced together for the rest of their lives because of their dragon bonds. Their dragons are mates Like you cannot. You could not plan that better.
Speaker 2:But Well, let's, let's take a second and set that stage right, Like so. Not that I am good at summaries, but we meet Violet. She's in the war college. So many things I'm not going to try to pronounce, Um, and cause I don't have audio book working for me, um, so we meet her. She winds up making it across the parapet.
Speaker 2:She winds up making it through their version of boot camp to the threshing all the while, there's stuff percolating under the surface with zayden and dane, who she has known her whole life, and that's the other leg of the triangle. We keep getting told in different ways through the story about how clever Violet is. I personally, I think that Violet's adorable, so I like the fact that she's a book nerd. I like the fact that she drops lore as a method to distract herself when she's nervous.
Speaker 2:I think that it was a clever device for the author and I think that it's endearing me to her much more than I would have thought even in the beginning. Um, than I would have thought even in the beginning, um. And then so she finds ways to take advantage of the fact that she's not as big, she's not as strong, she's not as practiced as all of her quote-unquote peers.
Speaker 2:Um, makes it through threshing, gets picked by not one dragon but two very special and then we wind up to find out that the dragon, one of the dragons that she is bonded with, is also bonded mated to zadans. And we left off with wow, and just like that I lost the entire last chapter.
Speaker 1:I was doing so good you believed we left off with the people attacking her because she has the best dragon, and her little dragon, that everyone thought was weak, turns out to be a juvenile that can transfer her powers to Violet accidentally. But the juvenile dragon saves Violet by stopping time, and then we find out that, yeah, she's a baby, which is kind of alarming, which is a huge reveal. Right and stopping time is a skill. I can't remember the word for it, it's a signet. It's a signet.
Speaker 2:A signet is the powers they bestow on the humans, I think.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right right. So, whether that becomes a signet or not, the power that the feather tail has is intense and should be kept a secret because of how powerful it is. Like stopping time, whoa is crazy. Um, so yeah, and that's where we are. Because their dragons are mated, they are essentially bonded for life because if either of them dies, one their dragon will, I guess, die and then the other dragon will die. So it's a big tragic. It's a big tragic situation that we're in right now so it's like a water bond, but with dragons if you're a wheel of time, yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're a wheel of time fan, yes, and. And you can communicate telepathically, which is interesting pretty interesting, yeah, um. So anyways, curious to see how long it takes them from being like psychically linked to banging right. I watch it be like chapter 20, like we stopped right before it happened.
Speaker 2:Right before, yeah, um, I do feel like that was one of my predictions and that was seriously, I think, chapter two. I was like these guys are going to have a relationship, something's happening here. You don't spend that long describing how beautiful this boy is for it not to come to fruition. Other prediction I had was that Dane was going to get it together and kiss her and she was going to realize just kidding, that's not what I want. And that did in fact happen. So that was kind of a gratifying moment that came to fruition in the first half of the book.
Speaker 1:How early was it that you realized that Dane is insufferable? Because it was pretty early.
Speaker 2:Let me see there might be a bookmark for that. Hold on, I do remember, like holding my head going I don't know if it's just how middle aged white girl I am but like tell me one more time that I can't do the thing and that I'll definitely die Go ahead. Tell me again.
Speaker 1:Try to save me when I don't want to be saved. Come on, do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he uh chapter three when she claps back and says 15 of the candidates don't make it. But I did so yeah, by the second time he tried to smuggle her to the scribes, by the second time she had to repeat herself, I was like no literally, literally, I mean I was actually a little proud of her for realizing that. You know, dane ain't the one um because of how kind of degrading and belittling that is from a behavioral perspective at one point he's like she's like what did she say?
Speaker 1:something like you, you're here, you survived, or something like that. And he's like but I'm a writer.
Speaker 2:It's like uh, so could she be what have I been doing this whole time?
Speaker 1:literally oh my gosh, he drove me nuts. He drove me nuts. So it wasn't even like a true love triangle, because he was eliminated for me almost immediately, plus the writing was so on the wall I mean technically it hasn't happened yet, so I guess they don't necessarily definitely get together, zayden and violet. But let's be honest, yes, they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somebody's got to scratch that itch.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:So we've been talking about the romance for most of it, but I think we need to circle back and talk about the beginning, right, the way it was introduced, and I think it was a pretty good introduction, because for me, I've read a lot of books lately where they drop me in and I just like I'm just not into them right, like it's something about the way it's introduced, how the character, the main character, is brought up, whatever it is where I'm just like not hooked and I think, like having it be the morning of right the threshing or not threshing, the morning of the parapet, like her dealing with her family, it just kind of like threw us into a really intense situation and gave us room to like get to know her too.
Speaker 1:Right, because we got to know her family right out of the gate and then we got to know her and how she like faces trials, tribulations, literally, um, but it did. Getting to know her family specifically was interesting because when I found out that her mom was forcing her to do something that was likely to kill her, knowing that she is just incredibly weak according to her and everyone else, it to me felt kind of unrealistic. Kind of unrealistic. No, no, it's like as a parent that feels like something I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever do. So how did that hit you Like? Do you think the mom was unrealistic or do you think she's just a horrible person?
Speaker 2:or something else. I choose to believe that there is something else going on, so I guess that would be my conspiracy theory, because I don't want to believe that. Her mother it to me at least at this point in the story would read like if that's the case and there was no nothing else going on that we haven't been clued in on yet, then that would mean that she put her military career above the well-being of her children, and I have a really hard time buying that yeah sight unseen like give me more.
Speaker 2:So they talk about the commander melgren and how he's got a power that sounds a lot like foreshadowing um, or his dragon has that power, and I was like there is a case that could be made that somewhere, some, some mechanism is allowed that somebody's clued her in, that violet's a really important part of something coming up and could be informed like. So that's my like. Shoot from the hip. Wild theory is that somehow I think it's melgren's dragon. I don't have that description here, because why would I?
Speaker 1:get. It's his signet that he can predict the outcomes of battles, of battles, yes, yeah um, and to me that's, that's not far off from foretelling yeah, no, you're not wrong so has he, has he seen something, or is somebody else subject to a foretelling type skill?
Speaker 2:and somehow, um, her mom has been made aware that violet's really important, because obviously I want to believe that violet's important and she didn't just push her into it just because she's a soaring gale, because that's god awful right, that's bad parenting, bad parenting 101.
Speaker 1:so, since we're doing harebrained theories, are you ready for one of my harebrained theories, because we're talking about violet's family? Yes, okay, I and this is dumb because I think it's all but confirmed but I think that her brother is alive and that maybe he defected. That's what I think. So I'm not sure, because we also we found out that like somebody died trying to bring him back to life, yes, yes, and so I'm just not sure about all that. You know, we don't know enough and I'm not like, maybe, maybe they did bury his body and I missed that remark right Somewhere in the book, and if they did, that's on me. But I just like the moment I heard, like he's dead, there's this book that they're reading about him. Um, there's some weird thing, like I have a feeling that we're gonna find out. This is part of the theory that violets, like whatever the military, whatever the government is that she's under, is actually terrible and that the other side is the good side, and that he found out and defected and they covered it up.
Speaker 2:That's where I'm at. Funny story that you mentioned that, because I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna take your story about Brendan because, yes, I love that. I hope that. I hope that that's real. I was kind of thinking maybe the dad like we never hear how dad died. They described how Brendan died. They didn't describe how dad died.
Speaker 2:So maybe her dad but whatever, there were definitely different parts where, once she got through the parapet during you know, the bootcamp phase, whatever they call it in here, and they started doing battle briefs, I was like I can't help but wonder how much of this? I don't think propaganda is necessarily the right word, but it is certainly from a certain perspective. So all of these rebels are attacking.
Speaker 1:Looking for something.
Speaker 2:Are they completely without cause like?
Speaker 1:uh-huh, we're not hearing anything on that side yeah, yeah, I'm just not sure, I'm just not buying they don't really consider myself to be anti-establishment as a person, you know. But yeah, I just I think it's one of one of it's one of those things where, like when I saw Zayden and I was like immediate enemies to lovers, like it just pinged me in my mind. I was like her brother's dead. Everyone loved her brother. He's not dead.
Speaker 2:I hope that's true. I hope that's true. So as we hear more about this government structure and how they're having the kids conscripted in for the parents' sins, I'm like that is crappy government yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And they can't gather in more than three people? Yeah, and then it's a death penalty. Like are you joking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Like are you joking? Yeah, it's interesting, and you have to think, because dragons are like old and wise at least in the you know that's what they are in the zeitgeist and mythology Unless dragons every year are willing to bond with these riders and the wards are faltering and all this stuff. So I'm just thinking like, are dragons losing faith? Are they realizing that they might be on the wrong side too? You know, there's just a lot that has me and I wouldn't call myself anti-establishment, I would call myself like a skeptic, like I'm not just gonna, you know, believe things that people tell me right, or like you know, just because the government says it.
Speaker 2:It's right. I think that's just being a functioning adult at this point in our timelines you're not wrong.
Speaker 2:Um so yeah, there's just basically my first instinct when I hear something is that's probably a lie well, and I did like the fact, so I'm gonna go on the dragon path a little bit so, um, I did like the fact that as soon as we meet dragons from violet's's perspective, almost within the same breath, we find out that humans don't know as much about dragons as they think they do. They do have the professor, who is very, very versed in knowledge, but it turns out the dragons are holding some stuff close to the vest as well. So, I'm interested to see what we don't know about dragons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like when Violet's big dragon was like please tell me what dragons look for in a writer, as if that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard Tern, is that how they said it? Yeah, that's what they said in the audiobook. I'm terrible at names so I forgot.
Speaker 2:And the little gold one is Andara. It's like darnarum and darna I think is what they say in the book. Yeah, yeah so, yeah, I think that, um, I think that there's some stuff to learn there and I can't wait. I think that there's there's been some nuggets there that mean that we're going to get some reveals.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. It did make me second-guess my like faith in dragons, when that stupid what's his face? Oh my gosh, the comically evil guy, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Jack.
Speaker 1:Barlow, jack Barlow, when a dragon bonded him. I was like okay, maybe dragons have terrible taste, maybe they do like evil people but it killed the other evil, kid tynan yeah, yeah, I don't know. The fact that barla got a dragon didn't sit right with me, but I guess, like dragons, maybe also are varied in their good and bad is a spectrum. Yeah, so maybe that's maybe that orange dragon.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's a little bit of this messaging as well, like Good and evil are on a spectrum and people are on a spectrum, and some of that might be. I'd like to think that we're going to see some depth and some growth with that For the main character, um in in the storyline by consequence do you think jack barlow is gonna have a redemption arc?
Speaker 2:because that guy no ridiculous you remember that character named mo ash. I feel the same way about jack barlow that I do about mo ash. That's a Stormlight Archives reference and I apologize everybody.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah he, the moment we met him, and then he threw a kid off the parapet for no reason.
Speaker 2:My name's Jack Barlow. You're going to want to remember it. I'm going to be a wing leader.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I wrote F that guy.
Speaker 1:F that guy and then their first day of sparring, when they're literally just like feeling things out they're not meant to hurt each other he snaps a kid's neck, like what is happening? I'm sorry, but what kind of a person Like?
Speaker 2:I guess technically psychopaths exist, so we just happen to have one in Dragon School in in dragon school and so that for me really paralleled um the hunger games with the um capital kids, the kids who were put into the lottery from the capital, and how they were trained that was that vibe?
Speaker 1:and just as icky like the the district one and two the careers the careers. That's what it was, yeah I just read the new, the newer hunger games, suzanne collins books, the uh sunrise on the reaping and ballad of songbirds and snakes, so it's a little fresh for me. I hadn't read hunger games in forever um, but I read those two recently, so, yeah, I never finished.
Speaker 2:Never finished the original hunger games. I think I read the first book. I don't think I finished the series. That was a while ago. I might have. That was a really long time ago did you watch the movies?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I've seen them all, okay, so you know what happens. Okay, that's good. They are pretty faithful, like pretty faithful to the books. Not perfect, but quite, um, okay. So, yeah, jack barlow pos, we hate him. Yeah, their their idea to kill a dragon, like that dragon's a liability, like yes, what I'm like like are you not worried about getting in trouble? Like nothing. I don't know if that one to me.
Speaker 2:His whole arc has me just like this guy's not real, yeah it's, as opposed, like what's the opposite of mvp, mup, very unimportant person like most hated person, mhp.
Speaker 1:He's my even more than dane. He's just because he's so evil. He's just dumb and evil.
Speaker 2:I don't know so dane was giving me some real lawful good vibes. Um, yes, so again and I'm sorry for those who are watching or listening who?
Speaker 1:aren't where you're going people, but he gives me such a gallant yes, he does, he does it's so bad, but it's so feel like well, but I can't do that because it'd be breaking the rule right, right, I love, love that whenever he kissed her like they kiss, and then the next day or whatever, he's like we actually can't be together because of the rules and she's like, okay, oh no, oh, shucks, what a disappointment broken well, yeah, and she just got further icked out like okay.
Speaker 1:So even if I was into this, you'd say no because of the rules. Like that's kind of annoying. Obviously I don't mean that much to you if the rules mean more, basically, um, so yeah, I hate dane, hate dane, although I did predict at the very, very beginning.
Speaker 1:When he met rianne riannon for the first time, I was like oh, they're gonna get together because they were like sparring too, but I think she I don't she's either bi or a lesbian, so I'm not sure that she would be into him. She does say that he's hot, so there's still a chance if he just like gets his the stick out of his behind and um. But I don't know if that'll ever happen.
Speaker 2:So that's interesting. Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I could totally see that the rihanna and dane pairing yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:Okay. So there was one question that I had towards the beginning, but it was resolved. Um, she actually answered. It was so violet right as main character. She has this affliction of some kind, um like, not necessarily described very well, but it's.
Speaker 2:She just breaks easily yeah, so I honestly was like does she have eller danlos syndrome? So I'm not a clinician nor do play one on TV, but I know a couple of people who have Ehlers-Danlos and the prone to injury and even like her joints don't stay where they're supposed to, kind of thing. There are a couple of references in the book that really kind of make me think of. Ehlers-danlos is a um, a connective tissue disease, um's genetic um and I was like is that what she's got?
Speaker 2:and also on top of that, I'm like is she actually weak or is she just not super buff like her siblings?
Speaker 1:okay, so are you ready for an external knowledge bomb drop that doesn't have anything to do with the story? Sure, okay, so uh, apparently, and I remember this from tiktok, so uh, but I googled it just to confirm rebecca yaros has, eller danlos did I get that right? I think you got that right. I think I think violence is self-insert um based on that information. So, yeah, I think whatever that affliction is, it's meant to be you know, whether it's officially that or just like supposed to be the fantasy version of that.
Speaker 2:I think she's got it, so yeah yeah, because I'm like if you fell on a parapet like you would have bruises, you would have damages, you could sprain a joint, like you could do all of those things.
Speaker 2:but there was one section in particular where she was talking about how she has to wrap her knee. Um, mr jessica has a family member who has eller danlos confirmed diagnosis and uh, it was a running joke, not so about how her patella often was not where it was supposed to be, because your patella floats in cartilage and so if you have a cartilage disease, it's a problem. Yeah, so, yeah, there's just. I was like it's really the wrapping of the joints and all of that just gave me that vibe.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I think you hit the nail right on the head with that one. I'm not going to lie. Before I put two and two together, I was like we get it, you're weak. Oh my God, you're weak. But then when I realized, oh no, this is more than that, chill out. She's really dealing with something other than just the fact that she didn't hit the gym it made a lot more sense to me but, yeah, made less sense that her mom put her through dragon school yeah, that condition.
Speaker 2:I want to believe that there is something else happening like even if it's not as benevolent as what I painted- um I would like to believe that there is some other reason why her mother has driven, you know, has drawn such a strict line and, yes, you will go, and there's no way around it. Yeah, I can't, as a mother, I can't countenance any reason why you would send your child in so unprepared.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree, I mean she did mention. I want to say that she was like smart enough or something, I don't know she said some kind of a compliment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she passed the proficiency test. She's more than intelligent enough. Um, that was never in question.
Speaker 1:Like still as an adult looking out for your child no way you know what they're capable of you, one would hope, right that you know what what they are are not capable of, and you wouldn't send them in so physically unprepared yeah, yeah, I tend to agree, unless, I guess, and the alternative like, unlike dane, who didn't believe she could do anything, maybe her mom just really believed she could do it, I don't know. I mean, it does seem pretty brutal out there, but it does. Maybe she just thought.
Speaker 2:The casual killing is a little alarming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's part of the reason that I think this particular country is the bad country. Like what? Why are we encouraging any of this?
Speaker 2:I don't know, it's pretty pretty wild college students killing each other.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel yeah, like anything that anybody would encourage. Um, yeah, yeah, there's certain things about this story that, to me, are just like. This isn't real. I just like I know it's a fantasy book, but what kind of culture are we talking about?
Speaker 2:What kind of setting have we created where this is so normalized that it's commonplace?
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, right, yeah, so I know we talked about doing the top five type situation and I know we might want like talk about each situation that we we get into a little bit, so I feel like starting it, you know, before the end of the time might make sense. So how do you feel about digging into that unless?
Speaker 2:you have something else, let's do it. Um, and the problem is I already gave you one of mine. I want to hear it. 15% of candidates don't make it past the parapet and I'm still standing, so I guess I'm beating those odds already and I was like hell, yeah, girl, yes you are.
Speaker 1:So I think, relatedly, I really enjoyed the parapet, like the actual scene. It felt suspenseful and, as you said, like she started reciting facts to like get her mind right and it did feel like telling, not showing us some facts, but it was. It was good and believable in the sense that like, yeah, talking, like saying things over and over again, it's like a meditation type practice, so that could work. Um, I also like, as part of that, I enjoyed that she like gave her boot to her friend. All of that stuff was kind of all I thought that was brilliant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all wrapped together in just a nice intro to the character, because it was the stupid evil guy chasing after her and then she stopped him with her dagger. It was a fun introduction I'll put it that way. So that's on my list, and these are in no particular order, by the way way, and I also haven't prepared my list in advance, but I did just, I did just read them, so I should be able to pull them, uh, from my recent memory um.
Speaker 2:Do you want to give one?
Speaker 1:yeah, sure, okay. So another one that I enjoyed was the um, was the uh, zayden's little club. The night that violet was out foraging poisons and she finds out that zayden can control shadows and they have their first really tense, you know, like cats kind of feeling each other out in an alley situation. Um, you know, sexual tension off the charts. Um, the fact that he's not killing her right away, all of it is just, and she's like hot and bothered by him but still mad at him and they're sparring back and forth and like, and the fact that she realizes like she is more chaotic, good, I think. And she's like this is technically illegal but like you're not actually doing anything wrong, so I'm not gonna rat you out and dane can't know because he's a little snitch, and yeah, it just felt like it gave me a better idea of who she was as a person, at the same time of like a fun scene with like little romantic type banter. So I like that scene a lot I like that too.
Speaker 2:Um, another one that I liked is a different one, which is where zayden was physically sparring with her and actually giving her pointers, um and and, not for the foreplay aspect of it.
Speaker 2:So much as I think it's good when those characters push each other and I do think that the author did a good job writing their interactions I found it very enjoyable and I thought that it was believable that the character is growing, she's expecting one thing, she's encountering another and, to your point, seeing her have to reassess the situation and reassess this person on the fly assess this person on the fly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that would definitely also be in my top five and um, I actually wrote down something that she said and I can't remember exactly what it was, the where it came from. It was like maybe you know whatever he was telling her like you, you could use the knife like it's a good fit at this angle. And she's like I couldn't help but think about what else would be a good fit at this angle when he's like straddling her.
Speaker 1:Sorry, some of her inner monologue is like cringy to me, but that was funny, like in a good way it made me laugh, like relate to her. Um. So not only was it a fun scene, that is was like tailor made for the screen, like I could literally see it in my mind's eye. He's like pulling daggers out from her and like throwing them off into the corners and danes like gathering them up, looking all mad um but yeah, I think that's something I would say for this author is that she does do a good job of painting a visual picture.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm not very good at visualizing. So I think that I think that it speaks to her ability to be able to really kind of set a scene and paint a picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Okay, you go.
Speaker 2:My next one has to be Dragons man. I loved the initial interaction between Violet and Tarn. Tarn sounds like a grumpy old grandfather in my head.
Speaker 1:On the audiobook too.
Speaker 2:And Darna is just a cute little marshmallow and I just loved the interactions. I couldn't get enough yeah.
Speaker 1:I picture and Darna as like toothless from how to train your dragon, because the way she describes it, but gold and like a little fluffy toothless but gold and fluffy.
Speaker 1:Because literally at one point she said she looked at me and her with her head at an almost impossible angle and you know how toothless goes, like full sideways, like that's what I picture. Yeah, like immediately. And she said you know her round, more rounded eyes and like full sideways, like that's what I picture. Yeah, like immediately. And she said you know her round, more rounded eyes and like a bunch of it's, just like it was just toothless, fluffy, golden, toothless.
Speaker 1:In my mind I wonder if there's fan art out there. That's like that is there?
Speaker 1:probably is not that we can google it yet, but maybe later yeah, yeah, I definitely don't want to google it, since we find out that feather tails are just babies, apparently, and who knows what she's going to turn out to be in her full glory. I'm trying to think of what my next one would be, and part of me thinks it's I think it had. Well, one of them for sure would be the moment that she was assaulted in her room and time stopped and zayden just like fully obliterated her assailants, like all of that was just like a whole, like okay, it's finally happening.
Speaker 1:Like they said, everyone's gonna be trying to kill you at all times. And then she got the best dragon and they're like now everyone's really gonna be trying to kill you. And even though technically it's a rule that you're not supposed to kill people in their sleep, like these people are freaking lawless like this is a brutal place and so yeah I was surprised that they hadn't tried to kill in her sleep earlier.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, that whole scene was just like really like, oh, edge of your seat, exciting and and you know, of course he's written this way but zayden being like such a bad boy and just like killing them without any regard, I was like, okay, zayden, look at you, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, like most, like a lot of women my age, I do have a weakness for bad boys. So I am curious to see, you know, when we get to hear more of Zayden's backstory, about how he got here. I'm sure we will. Um, one of my other favorite moments, honestly, is just a quote from early in the book um, it's while they're going up to the parapet. It's riannon. My kindle keeps falling asleep. Hold on, that's okay. Um, I can't effing wait, riannon smile widens. I mean, who wouldn't want to ride a dragon?
Speaker 1:and it was such a relatable moment in chapter three or whatever, and I was like yes, yeah, yes. Only since I was seven years old have I wanted to ride a dragon so yeah, yeah her, like there I looped that into my first favorite, the parapet moment or or whatever, but yeah her and Rhiannon generally are just a lovely duo. I'm glad that they're friends.
Speaker 2:And the duality right Like made friends with Rhiannon, made enemies with Jack Barlow and then, there was a victim, so is that fridging the poor boy that got?
Speaker 1:killed. I don't think he motivated them. I think he was a plot device of just like, don't get comfortable yeah, and that was it.
Speaker 2:Really, is this dangerous?
Speaker 1:yeah, right, like you might think plot armor and of course we do think some people have plot armor but like, what was his name? Was it trevor, the guy who's like we can marry earlier if we get out of dragon school and then he falls off the parapet?
Speaker 2:that's the kid that I'm talking about he had a ring on a necklace and he was like in three years yeah I'm marrying that girl yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think that was literally because you hear these people getting to know each other, like, okay, they're sharing boots, they're talking about getting married, whatever, so it feels like a little trio of friends forming and then one of them just dies. So it does feel like the rug is like ripped out from under. You don't get comfortable. That's what I think. That was not fridging because we didn't, you know it wasn't motivational, yeah and they didn't know him from bob, but um, it was.
Speaker 1:It was just a little jarring. Not as jarring, though, as when stupid jack barlow just threw someone off the parapet Because I can't believe that's allowed. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I've only done four and I'm trying to decide, because I've got a moment in my mind and I think I'm going to you know what You're right that the like, the interactions with the dragon, and like Taryn, and like holding her on him is hilarious, but I want to say just for like, once again making me appreciate the character of Violet more whenever she stood up for the feather tail against like three guys, even though she's you know has zero chance.
Speaker 1:She has zero chance of beating them. That was admirable. And a chance of beating them, that was admirable. And and the fact that, like she knew what they were doing and that they could easily hurt her and she like risked herself to go find the dragon and warn it, like that was a good moment for me and tierney commented on it.
Speaker 2:I don't think I highlighted it, but he made a comment about you know, there's more than one way to be strong right, right, so that was a good moment for me.
Speaker 1:I liked it. Yeah, I think that makes five.
Speaker 2:I think yeah, I don't have anything else. Um uh, obviously, like you said, um andarna, freezing everything in time was a hella cool way to um handle the situation and made for a great mid-book, um climax yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:With 19 chapters in, we picked a perfect way we did to end honestly, honestly, um. So I guess, like before we get into our mvp, which we do all the time in every episode, I think or maybe, maybe not our earliest episodes I'm trying to remember, like when we started doing MVPs.
Speaker 2:Second or third? Yeah, I mean definitely in the first season, but I don't know if the first couple had it or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we started doing it, but I guess what would you, jessica, say to the naysayers? Because I know, when we announced that this is the book that we were reading, we are in a community that has a lot of high fantasy fans, and so some of them were like what you know, some of them were skeptical. So what would you say to the skeptics?
Speaker 2:I would say that every story is different and come to it with an open mind. You know what I mean. Like yeah. I want to see how the story goes. This has the potential to be a really fun story all the way through. Do I think it's going to replace my top five reads?
Speaker 2:probably not, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good story to tell or a good story to read. So you know you can set aside the baggage that you're bringing with you. If you're going to hold it to a different standard, then you're probably not going to be happy with it. But the same could be true of any story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. I think what I would say is, in the same way that I love shows right like succession, and breaking bad and mad men, the prestige shows, the deep shows, the shows that everyone agrees are incredible and, you know, worthwhile, I also personally love and will absolutely inhale the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives right.
Speaker 1:And this book and when that came out, I was watching it like every five, like every time I would get a minute, I would turn it on my phone, right, I was obsessed. That's what this is for me. Fourth Wing right now is my Secret Lives of Mormonormon wives. It is, you know, not the most substantial thing that I've ever read um, but I am having a good time reading it, and not everything has to be life-changing exactly.
Speaker 1:It's just fun, and so, if you can kind of like, pause the I need to be reading something that's critically acclaimed, pause that part of your brain and you just want to read something for funsies. This is. This is a book that you can definitely read for funsies.
Speaker 2:I think it's somewhere between the guilty, guilty pleasure and the beach read. Like you said, like I, I always when I pick my kindle up.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to come back to it um I don't often feel out of the story or out of kilts, like out of sync with it, um, and I think there's a lot to be said for that, and I I feel like that makes it sound like I'm trying to tamp down a bad review. I don't have a bad review of this story so far. I'm really into it and I can't wait to read the second half.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't call, and I know that I was a little snarky about a couple of the lines that I read and that I'll own that because I was. But overall, again, I had a ton of fun reading it and I would recommend it to anyone who I think has the capability of chilling out for a little bit and just reading something you know, eating mcdonald's instead of your fancy if you're looking for herodotus or plato or socrates is this a story for you probably not no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Probably I understand like honestly, most of the stuff I read probably not for you, right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's where I'm at. So if you're on the fence and you're watching this just to see, and obviously if you haven't- read it yet and you're watching this spoilers, spoilers, so sorry, sorry about that. But hey, we've only read the first half and you can get through the first half fast, because I did, yeah, and the second half is all a mystery and apparently contains all the spice in the book, assuming there is spice.
Speaker 2:Allegedly, we were told there was spice.
Speaker 1:I actually wasn't told. I'm only assuming, based on the fanaticism surrounding the book.
Speaker 2:I feel like I was told.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like I was told.
Speaker 1:I feel like I saw it in a romanticanticy list somewhere, and you know what sure I could be totally wrong. This, this is.
Speaker 2:This is just proof that we came into this with no foreknowledge, with as little expectation as possible, which? Is really the way we like to do these things yeah, it's true, it's true.
Speaker 1:So, overall, enjoying it. Is it tolkien? No, but this is a whole different ball game. It's a whole different era of our lives, okay and I didn't need it to be.
Speaker 2:I didn't need it to be tolkien so exactly, exactly, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, are we going to pick an MVP for this episode? I feel like we should.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm kind of on the fence. I have two names in mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got, I think I have my pick and I have a runner-up. I think that's what I'm going to go with. So what about we? Since we're doing this in halves my pick and I have a runner up, I think that's what I'm gonna go with. So what about we? Like, since we're doing this in halves, like, why don't we assign one point to an mvp and a half point to the runner up for the ultimate and book mvp resolution?
Speaker 2:okay, yeah I can live with that okay do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first?
Speaker 1:I'll go first. Okay, I'll give you my runner-up first. How's that sound? Sounds good. Okay, my runner-up is I don't know her name violet's sister. Thank you, mira. My runner-up is mira, because without that book that she gave Violet, without her help of Violet, before the parapet, getting rid of the pack, repacking the pack, giving her the boots, giving her the vest.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:She would have died a thousand times.
Speaker 2:The book would not have happened.
Speaker 1:The book would not have happened without book, would not have happened without mira. So mira is my runner-up.
Speaker 2:Okay, you go, you can do your runner-up well, now I feel bad, because that was a really, really smart runner-up.
Speaker 1:No, dude, you follow your heart, man.
Speaker 2:We all have different things that we value I honestly want to pick zayden as a runner-up, because I think that he really is clocking everything that's happening and, in his own way, has been keeping an eye on her for a while. I feel like at some point another harebrained prophecy, uh prediction we're gonna find out. I feel like we're gonna find out later that he's been watching her um benevolently for much longer than violet realizes, like all of these times, that she's like he could have killed me. Why hasn't he killed me? That's because he hasn't been as mad at her as she thought he was the whole time, if that makes any sense at all no, I think, I think it does.
Speaker 1:I think it definitely does. Um, I think so. Adding to the like brother isn't dead theory, they also dropped just this very casual fact that I want to say was it zayden's dad had a sister or zayden had a sister either way? There's like, there's a, there's a random person that he's related to. That's out in the wild.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm just really intrigued by how that person might be involved.
Speaker 1:Are they going to be in love with Violet's brother. That feels like it would be kind of an age gap that might be an issue, but we don't know. We don't actually know how old this sister is. Anyways, I could be stretching, but every time somebody just like casually says something in a book, I'm like wait, why did you say that? Yeah, why do we want to know that this, the person that violet's mom killed, had a sister? Why do we need to know that? And it's just like this feels so. Romeo and juliet, by the way, like you killed my father, I killed your brother like all.
Speaker 2:That's very much, you and catherine yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's, it's, uh, it's yeah, it's giving romeo and juliet. For me it's like in the same way that the first book of akatar, without any spoilers, felt like beauty and the beast, like, yes, that was beauty and the beast and this is roman juliet, but we'll see, but at least there's dragons and there's dragons, which is great. We love dragons.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm gonna have you do your mvp okay, so my mvp is gonna be rihanna, because I think that it's really important when you are going through um life or death boot camp, that you have a bestie to get through it and that they all of their interactions are really positive, really supportive and very um balanced. You know what I mean, like she helps rihanna and rnon helps her. They look out for each other.
Speaker 2:Um and I just think that it's. I think that it's hugely important for somebody who is the the commander's daughter and could be very isolated. I never, never, underestimate the power of having a good bestie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, um, now I feel bad because, uh, neither of us will have picked violet for anything I thought about it, I really did.
Speaker 2:I swear you know what. How many times did we pick frodo? It's true, almost never, almost never. Um, I don't. I don't think we picked bilbo very often either, so it just tracks it tracks, it tracks.
Speaker 1:So my mvp was actually zayden, which I kind of hate now as like a feminist you know why am I giving him credit, but but I do think that he has more to him and I feel like we got that from the very beginning right. He didn't kill her right away. He said like, let's see, the parapet will kill you, I don't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1:And then you know, he made sure that none of the other rebels like we're gonna hurt her he called dibs on her so that none of them would hurt her and he gave her the tip that got her up the obstacle course, which, by the way, was another thing that made me laugh, because it's literally american ninja warrior. It's literally american ninja warrior. The last thing, the ramp. That's the final stage of american ninja warrior. It's literally american ninja warrior. The last thing, the ramp. That's the final stage of american ninja warrior. Also, love it, love it, anyways. I'm just picturing them running american ninja warrior, but, um, so, anyways, he gave her the hint that helped her with that. He gave her that sparring advice. Like he didn't tell about her poisoning. There were so many things that he could have ruined her, yeah, and he just didn't. And then he killed all the people who were attacking her. So, like mira, he's part of the reason the violets alive.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I really appreciate that he's been putting on a show for a very long time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I really liked him. Plus, I just have a thing for bad boys. What can I say? So, yeah, that's where we're at. Mvp. For me, awesome Feels good.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's a wrap on. Season five, episode one, so our next episode. We will finish the book, so we will read the second half of the book. Looking at my cheat sheet. Just kidding, that's not my cheat sheet. I'll look at my cheat sheet. So this episode is supposed to air June 17th and, as long as life goes the way that it's supposed to, the second episode, which will be the rest of the book, should drop july 1st.
Speaker 2:that is our current plan so for any of you who are reading along or want to know what when to look out, that's when you should look. July 1st is when you should see the rest of our discussion on fourth wing.
Speaker 1:And I think in that episode we will reveal whether we want to continue the series. I think I don't want to make that call now, since we're only halfway through the book. I think. I'll be comfortable making that call once we finish the book right now. I definitely want to finish the book and we'll see if that instinct rolls over into wanting to finish the series same, cool, totally okay, so we're on board.
Speaker 2:So with that, we will say thank you so much for joining us for our first regular season episode of season five of but are there dragons? Brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai and CritterXD. Please don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons? On YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod? Just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as CritterXD and Social Indultants. That's it for us today. We commend chapters 1 through 19 of Fourth Wing to Malik Bye Bye.
