But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, the Empyrean Series, Project Hail Mary, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Season 5 Episode 5: Iron Flame: An Improvement? 1st Time Readers Chat Iron Flame pt 1!
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Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. For our fifth season, we're reading the Empyrean Series by Rebecca Yarros! We recently finished Fourth Wing, and this is our first episode discussing Iron Flame. We cover the first half of the book, Chapters 1-35.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Introduction to Iron Flame
Speaker 1welcome to. But are there dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and talk about it? I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host, jess, and we're here to talk about the first half of iron flame by rebecca yarrow's, chapters 1 through 35. As first time readers, neither of us has read any iron Flame and all we know about the series is what we just read in fourth wing in our last couple of episodes. So it's very fresh, it's very exciting. Jessica, how are you feeling?
Speaker 2I'm good, I'm into it, I'm ready to talk about it with you, yeah same same.
Speaker 1What else is new other than Iron Flame things? Same same. What else is new other?
Speaker 2than Iron Flame things. I mean, we're doing summer things right. It's summertime and we are all, at least in our house trying to compromise between beating the heat but enjoying summer while it's here.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2I see that you've got a certain shirt on.
Speaker 1You did something super fun.
Speaker 2Last week I did, I did. Can you tell the audience something super fun? Last week I did, I did. Can you tell the audience I can? For those who can't see, I am wearing a Critical Role live shirt. They were in Indianapolis, which is very drivable from where Mr and Mrs Jessica live, so we took a little road trip to Indianapolis for the first time. We did not go to Gen Con this time. However, I do imagine that that will happen at some point, not go to Gen.
Speaker 2Con this time. However, I do imagine that that will happen at some point, but it was a big deal. Mr Jessica introduced me to Critical Role and it also is their 10-year anniversary, so it was very cool. It was super fun. It was a venue of about 7,500 Critter fans. Wow, and it's C Critter instead of K Critter.
Speaker 1I was thinking like can I make a?
Speaker 2joke about this, but yes, um, I mean, I bet you could pack a stadium if you really try uh, do my just figured.
Speaker 1I have to figure out my talent first, but we'll get there well, I mean, you could bring baby dragon and that would definitely draw crap. He is. He is pretty fabulous, the baby dragon. He just started standing up by himself. You know, one of those like he stands up and he's like and then he falls over. It's like the cutest thing in the world. And if you're just listening and not watching, what I did was hold my arms up as if I'm balancing and then wiggle a lot, because that's what he looks like.
Speaker 2It's really cute as only delicious chonky toddlers can do. It's amazing. I can't wait exactly um, so he's amazing.
Speaker 1We're moving, so this might, if you're watching, this might be. This probably will be the last recording I ever make at this setup like this. I'm excited to change my setup, but also incredibly daunted, because there's a lot going on behind me and a lot of like it. Has it changed, it has many iterations over time and, uh, I don't even know if I'm gonna be like in a corner versus behind in front of a flat wall. I haven't decided any of it. I know, like, what the room looks like, but I just haven't decided anything. So we'll see what my setup looks like here in a month.
Speaker 2It's exciting, but it's a lot of work, yeah you might still be there for the last half of this book you might, I'll physically be here, but my backdrop because we're gonna have to paint this room because it's I mean, it's gonna be covered in holes.
Speaker 1It seems a mileage. This is easily gonna be the worst room for like needing wall repair. So, yeah, I'm in haste with earnest. I don't know how to say it. I'm gonna be getting after that soon, so I don't know which backdrop I'm gonna choose for our next recording, because I'll be in this house, but there's not gonna be a lot in this house, so it might just be a blank wall. We'll see.
Speaker 2We'll see definitely exciting stuff it is.
Speaker 1So you know what else is exciting? Iron flame. So I told my discord this, but I read it once, like, like at my normal speed, which is about, I think, 1.5 speed with this narrator, and then I where it ended, which, like, we'll talk about, but well, I guess we can talk about it because it's full spoilers. Where it ended, where it's like Zayden and Dane working together to free Violet from the evil torture man, what, and that's how it ended.
Speaker 2But let's just take a moment to enjoy not one but two books in a row where we have, completely out of pure circumstance, uh, picked stellar cliffhanger spots like I think.
Speaker 1We'll stop here wild, although part of me now is like is this a strategy of authors? To be like, oh, you're not gonna stop halfway through this book, let me show you what happens halfway through this, you know like maybe it's not us, maybe it's maybe them trying to get us, maybe that's a formula that we're becoming wise to or yeah, becoming wise, falling either way same vibes so I could not believe that that was how it ended and that I couldn't keep reading, because we have to maintain our non-spoiled self it's hard, and so I read it again at two times speed, just immediately.
Speaker 1So I've read it twice technically, um, or you know, I've read the first half twice because I was just like, first of all, I need to make sure I remember things and and, secondly, I want to keep reading this book. So I'm just gonna keep reading this book in the way that I can. So how did you feel at the end?
Speaker 2So unusually for me. So normally I'm the one that's done earlier and has to reread as well. This time I didn't. I finished this chapter today and I fell asleep during chapter 34 last night, which is wild, because it was so action packed. But yeah it just my body couldn't stay up any longer. So I finished 35 today and I was just genuinely excited that I don't have to wait long. I was like, oh, this would have really sucked if I had finished this two weeks and had to. You know, cool my jets.
Speaker 1So I tell you what's really easy reading audiobooks while you're packing right, mindless activity, put in some headphones and wow, you can really eat a book quickly. And I did so. Here we are. I want to say something because I can't wait any longer. But remember during Fourth Wing, when I, in passing, said I want to say that I never believe somebody is dead until I see a body.
Speaker 2So let's talk about it, because we had not just one, but two, two.
Speaker 1And I said that in reference to not just one but two, but two when jack mother barlow went down with the mountain I was, like I already predicted, brandon's not dead, so I feel repetitive, but where's the body? Where's the body? And you know what happened they?
Speaker 2they brought him back and part of it so did they bring him back to life.
Speaker 1He called it soul mending I don't know.
Speaker 2I don't understand the healing um powers here very well, you know. So, between even even just the way violet was healed at the end of the first book and you know why, was she kind of disconnected from her power for a little while during the healing process. So there's definitely some mechanics that play with the way that they heal in this world that I don't feel like I have a good grasp on. Yeah, but I was like how is he not a zombie? And then also, because we are full spoilers for the first half of the book, um, he's so changed and is it?
Speaker 2is it a show or is it real?
Summer Updates and Critical Role
Speaker 1and he's making us think that it's real because he literally saved her life. That's wild. So like was his soul corrupted and when it got mended he became less of a psychopath. And okay, I don't.
Speaker 2That's like total I mean that's an aspect of healing right like I would maybe.
Speaker 1I mean because he was completely messed up in the brain like evil and you know, probably sociopathic. And now he's back and he's nice and he's tutoring first years on the mat and he's saving Violet and he's giving weird like sup nods to Violet. It's, it's perplexing and the biggest question that I had, because I loved being right but I also don't love not knowing why they would mend him when so many other cadets die daily. Like and he was dead, you know what I mean Like I would at least, but why him?
Speaker 1But why him? Who made the decision? Why did they make that decision? I hope we find that out, because if we don't, it's gonna feel very random and just kind of annoying yeah, I kind of lost that in the shuffle, but that's an excellent point.
Speaker 2Um, yeah, because what what's so great about him other than the fact that he was ready to do murder just standing in line? So I mean, is that the sole qualification for him to be part of their plan?
Speaker 1I don't have no idea it. It's gonna confuse me until they explain it. And yeah, yeah because why?
Speaker 1just why, you know, and obviously don't tell me, because spoilers, if we do find out eventually, but if we don't find out, it's gonna be one of my big critters gonna stay up all night and pack and finish this book I don't want to say that, that's not true, but I have been like getting in bed and like having it in my ear, you know, while I'm like, okay, so I'm gonna stop, I'm gonna turn it off at 10, 30, and then I'll actually go to sleep and then it'll be like 1035 and I'll be like, damn it, okay, okay, I'm really going to do it. So you know, that's what's one thing about these books like they make you want to keep reading. They're not hard reads, they're not complicated reads but they're fun, they're really fun.
Speaker 2So, again, coming at it from the perspective of I just caught up, you know, about three hours before we're recording this Aspects of this book I am less focused on. It's kind of a mid-level, right to the parts of the book that really have grabbed me. So these last two, three chapters were very action-packed and it was really hard to put it down. Uh, so we're in the midst of some really good stuff and there were definitely some choices that the writer made through the first half of this book that, um, engaged me as well.
Speaker 2You know I've got a couple of of top five moments, but like me as well, you know I've got a couple of of top five moments, but like, um, yeah, there are just some choices that she made in the writing that I don't know if I'm just becoming more accustomed to her writing and the things that take me out, I just kind of ignore them and move on maybe that's what's happening, but there, there was one, so are you ready for my one?
Speaker 1that completely took me out of the entire book Twice. It happened twice. The first time I didn't write it down because I was like what was that? And then I just kept reading. I kept listening. The second time, I paused it because I was like I thought that's what I heard last time and the fact that this is real is insane. So this is what I wrote down His lips slid down my throat. Now, if I'm reading that, the image that comes to mind is a disembodied pair of lips proceeding down the esophagus. That's what I slid down my throat In this instance, and she does this with several words that I've noticed, but in this instance I would expect her to say neck.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1But instead she said throat, yep, so huge huge pet peeve.
Speaker 2That's so funny too, because I definitely noticed it in the moment and had to go back and reread it and then I was like, oh, neck, neck neck.
Initial Reactions to Iron Flame
Speaker 1He also. She also uses um head, when I would expect the word mind, like for example Zayden, will say something along the lines of what's going on in that beautiful head of yours. I know that's not nearly as egregious, but mind is a little bit more romantic, I don't know. Head is in the same way that she uses know. Head is just it's. It's in the same way that she uses mouth instead of lips. Everything's mouth, not lips.
Speaker 1And so we, I just need to, uh, I just beg to differ when it comes to some of the word choices she makes, and somehow it's body parts, for some reason, I don't know, but the biggest, most egregious one was easily throat instead of neck. That was a wild choice. Um, so, dear listeners, if you have any other things that took you out of the story because of the choices made by the author you know wording wise I would love to hear them because, honestly, at this point it just kind of makes me laugh. It's just, you know, yeah, choice of the author, and uh, those are just not choices I would make. So I, I'm, I would respectfully decline if my love interest offered to slide his lips down it doesn't even sound like a nice thing.
Speaker 1It does not sound like a thing you want somebody to do, like one of the like what are they whenever they, whenever they test for um?
Speaker 2oh my gosh what is barium swallow?
Speaker 1is that what it is like whenever they're testing for uh, what's it called? Whenever you have reflex? Yeah, well, they're testing for reflex.
Speaker 2Slide like a camera down yeah, that's a scope or barium swallow. Is they make you swallow the contrast so they can see what's happening?
Speaker 1uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Might as well just send a pair of lips down there to feel it out. Oh no, I'm so sorry. Okay, still no, we can definitely move on, I just anyways.
Speaker 2I do think that it's interesting, though and that was definitely my takeaway today, as I was percolating while I was cooking, because I frequently process my read while I'm doing other things that was definitely something that was on my mind is.
Speaker 1I'm not 100% sure what is me just becoming accustomed to her style? And is this book a little bit smoother, a little bit?
Speaker 2I do think it happened less where I was like what, and of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle right Like a little bit of both probably, but I did not find it as jarring this time and I feel like I'm excited. I'm I'm just as excited, if not more excited, to read the second half of this book as I was with fourth way easily yeah, yeah, I think this one had a lot of elements to it that I really dug.
Speaker 1You know, I don't know it, just it feels like there's just more going on and maybe it's because a lot of books have the. They suffer somewhat from you having to kind of settle in, get to know the environment, gives another world, gets another characters, and so there's a transition period of you entering the world. We're in the the world already, so we just dropped right in and got moving and maybe that helped. Because I feel like a lot happened in the first half of this book. Right, she engaged with Brennan, they were off with the rebels and they had to come back and they had to convince everyone why they were gone. And then just like, and then it just, you know, we met varish and there's he's torturing people and they have that what rnc or whatever the hell. It's called rsc, rsc and and you know, there's just like, different things happening constantly. It's it's very fast paced, which I thought was great.
Speaker 2Um, and the rsc is a fun addition, I think, like it is I, I the call out and I'm sure this was done for the benefit of the reader. Well, that's kind of a dumb thing to say. Everything's done for the benefit of the reader, right? But there was an offhand comment made in one of the chapters about how I'm going to paraphrase it, because I didn't even highlight it. But basically, second years just know enough to be dangerous.
Speaker 2Like they know enough to know what you know, what they didn't understand when they were first years about why the gauntlet was important and why threshing was important and why these different maneuvers were important. Like they get it now in context. But they still don't know as much as third years. But they think they know enough that they're okay.
Speaker 2And that resonated with me as the reader. I do feel like the stakes have been elevated. I do feel like that energy and emphasis and danger has elevated for this book, has elevated for this book, for whatever reason. This time around it was more in my head about lots of unexpected comparisons to Hogwarts vibes and I'm not sure if that was left over from a conversation but, I, was like Hogwarts did get dangerous. Hogwarts was probably always dangerous, uh, but I feel like we went from zero to 60 on the danger scale here versus I felt like hogwarts was a slowly boiling pot um across the course of seven books.
Speaker 1Um, that's funny that you mentioned that, because we got, uh we asked people for like questions, right, or like topics of discussion, and uh we got some from a good friend of ours, mr Salaya, and one of the comments she made is that Varish is basically Professor Umbridge punishing Violet by nearly burning her out and it's basically just classic Hogwarts magical school with corporal punishment.
Speaker 2Yeah, and the superficially polite exterior yeah as I do, like truly horrible things.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, because under the guise of being your educator I didn't even notice, but like late in this read violet says I saw varish frown for the first time and I was like does that mean? He's just like maniacally smiling at you like I didn. I didn't pick that up either time. Actually, I noticed it for the first time towards the end of my second read. I was just like oh so he is Professor Umbridge basically yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 2The other thing that I especially about Varys with this book I definitely noticed it in the other book Is it epithets that are go. That are the quotes that go before the chapter. Why am I drawing a blank on the word um?
Speaker 1you know what? It's not epitome. I mean, epithet is a word, but now I'm not sure what the word is, I would go with it.
Speaker 2So I, as you know, and probably most of our Butter their Dragons family knows, like having read Brandon Sanderson, for example, I like those little snippets that happened before the chapter. I like to look at those. And as this book opened, it opened with a comment about how Epigraph, epigraph Okay, I knew it was epith. Yeah, yeah well thank you, you're welcome um. So the first epigraph, I believe, on the first chapter was regarding varish and how he was not allowed to do um interrogations anymore because his methods were too controversial or too brutal, um, and so what a great bit of foreshadowing, but that stuck out to me so different things like that.
Speaker 2The other thing about the epigraphs that I really love and this is one of the things that I had as like my top five vibes from the first half of the book I like the letters. The book, um, I like the letters, I like that he wrote her letters and, um, I like them being used as epigraphs. And there was even an epigraph in there that was her reply to him.
Speaker 2So I like the pen pal. I don't. I'm sure it's just the nerd girl in me, but it is so wholesome yeah um, and it is a method of communication without, without guile for them, and I love that yeah, I feel like it's.
Speaker 1You know, if she put fourth wing to a focus group or something, I was like what's missing in their relationship? It's sweetness. I don't know, maybe, maybe that's what she got back, and so now these notes are inserting an element of sweetness, I think. And it's funny because it's not just the fact that he's writing her the contents of the letters, but it's also her reaction to them, right like I can't remember, was it? Um, oh, I forgot her name. Now, this is horrible.
Speaker 1Imogen or Rhiannon yeah, imogen's like commenting like you're grinning like an idiot or something like that after she got one of the letters, and like Violet mentioned how you know she wasn't having nightmares or something after she got the letter and all this stuff and it's just.
Speaker 2It's just that sweetens their relationship for sure, because it's like been so, like sexual right, it's been so physical, especially in the first book, although sexual and turbulent and, um you know, competitive at certain points and you know there's I don't want to say deception, because I don't necessarily agree with that, take um, but yeah, so it's nice for them to have something that is pure, something that is easy, something that is just a little bit more wholesome.
Speaker 1Yeah, so we're talking about their relationship. So let's talk about their relationship, them before, which to me feels like a double standard. But then she also is mad at him for his telling her that he can't tell her everything, even though I could have swore at the end of fourth wing he said he was gonna tell her everything. And so now I'm just like what are? Like these people are driving me nuts with like latching on to these ultimatum style deal breakers that turn out not to be deal breakers because, like they ended up having sex anyways, probably for the reader, because this is romance and they wanted to make sure they got it on. But just like, ultimately, I don't know, it's just driving me. That's because, like violet, for example, was not telling all of her friends almost anything, yep, and it's like so that's okay when you do it, but not when Zayden does it, because he was trying to protect you and a bunch of people by not telling you and now you're trying to protect them and it's okay.
Speaker 1It's just Anyways.
Jack Barlow's Unexpected Return
Speaker 2Violet was driving me nuts, but Zayden also, it was making me mad that he's never said I love you to her and he wants her to say it to him. Where are you at with this? So I'm pretty well aligned with that. I kind of figured this is the crux of their struggle. So I knew that we weren't going to get away from this anytime soon, unfortunately, I highly suspected it would be a while.
Speaker 2I don't have a lot of patience for it mostly because I think that it's a huge double standard, as you're pointing out. And also I think that I was personally glad when Zayden's like there's going to be things I just can't tell you. I was glad that he kind of drew that line, because if that's the nature of your relationship, then say that up front. Yeah, okay, so we've got that out in the open. There are going to be secrets. I can be honest with you about who I am, and et cetera, et cetera. I liked that approach. I also did not like the um until you beg for it, cause that's what that felt like. So I don't care if you wrap it in, I love you. The not until you beg for it trope, I'm Nope, I don't Nope, I don't like it.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to lie there. When they finally had a sex scene like in the shower I guess was the first one I was I was just like okay, like I feel like there's a lot, like a lot. I haven't read a ton of romance books, but the ones that I have read have done, or or just romance at all, I've. I when it was a huge thing. I feel like the like anticipation is great sometimes, right, you're like oh, my god, it's finally happening. This is so exciting. In this case, I was like okay, let's. I mean like, okay, cool, I don't really care about this, like not super invested, um, just because of how they got there, I guess I don't know, it was just, it just didn't really land for me. I think they're I don't know. I think the sex scenes in the first book were better than this one that we've had so far, or have we did we have two? I can't even remember they weren't even that memorable.
Speaker 2I feel like we had two. We might have had two, like when she came to see him in samara.
Speaker 1Uh-huh, maybe, maybe well, she thought he was that was the one where she thought he was like when she came to see him in Samara, maybe, maybe. Well, she thought he was. That was the one where she thought he was like hurt, right, and they went to the shower and did their thing.
Speaker 2Yep, so it might've been just one, I agree, like it doesn't do a lot. So I I do understand, and I agree with you a hundred percent that sometimes the anticipation of it is great. I, I agree with you 100% that sometimes the anticipation of it is great. I think the only thing for me is it marked the fact that she's willing to start moving beyond or soften on her hard line that she's drawing about him and him lying to her, which I don't. I got to stop with the air quotes today. Yeah, it's very rude of me.
Speaker 1The way they got there. Maybe it was part of the issue when I was like, okay, you guys are all just like. I don't know. He still hasn't said I love you, but he thinks he knows that she does love him, which is making it better. I don't know.
Speaker 2And she's just lying to everybody.
Speaker 1She's lying to everybody.
Speaker 2You know, we didn't really talk about it, but the whole point. So I'm an only child and it really shows sometimes, uh, so the concern about brennan being alive and how conflicted she felt about not telling mira, and that was one of those moments where I was like, oh, oh, shoot yeah. Like if I, yeah, if you didn't tell me, I'd be furious.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, how you'd feel, how I would handle it. Yeah, cause it's like, first of all, blood is thicker than water. I don't know. You know like family is important and she loves mira like smear her like this, and they were all three like this and so I feel like, in that sense, like those people, your rider dies I.
Speaker 1I can't believe she didn't tell her honestly, but I guess she kind of like tried to a little bit by doing the like, kind of insinuating that the dragons across the border could be wyvern right and mira, kind of was like you're a little.
Speaker 2Yeah, there was. No, there was no crumb trail to drop like brennan might just happen to oopsie be alive yeah, yeah, but yeah, I, I don't know.
Speaker 1It's like the fact that also, she didn't tell Mira. But then one of my top five moments was when she finally effing told her friends Rhiannon, yeah, tell me whenever you're ready, I'm ready to talk to you. She's never done anything to make Milo think that she couldn't be trusted, and she took so long. And the way that it happened was she basically only told her because she had to get that dagger out of her jacket and Rhiannon was the one who did it, right. God knows how much longer it would have been. And, lo and behold, she tells them and almost immediately she finds out information that she didn't have.
Speaker 2That was unbelievably clutch for her research project so, so that's the one that I wrote down. Uh, what was it, um? Is it riddick? Riddick? I think he's like wait, do I know something about the archives that you don't and it was such a hilarious feat, I'm like I don't care. I love that. That's a great moment, having known some library know-it-alls in my time, heck yeah, good for you.
Speaker 1Yeah, it was great, and the fact that that led up to another one of my favorite moments of my top five, which was the heist I'm a sucker Sucker for a heist and the fact that we got a heist was really fun and it ended with like a sprint to the finish with like a closing doors very indiana jones big fan and I feel like it was a well-done heist.
Speaker 2I thought that it was, I thought that it was great. Um, I love, uh, I love the pursuit of knowledge, you know, and I love the fact that the mystery of this revolves around record keeping and history and things like that. You know the winner's right history or they curate it at minimum and, uh, what the impact is of that and how they can whitewash certain things or remove certain things in from their existence, and what that would look like. Um, trying to go back and find ancient stories. So I do. I took notes. It's the first thing under my prediction center, but I I'm like this is not a prediction. So Venon were eradicated in the Great War 600 years ago.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2But the stories were changed 400 years ago, mm-hmm. Or would they think they were based on what Violet's seeing and stuff? So finding a book that's greater than 400 years old is really really hard. So you know what happened in those intervening 200 years. You know, whatever, whatever powers at large in the world, that is, you know, marshalling the Venon and the Wyverns and things like that. You know marshalling the Venon and the Wyverns and things like that, you know, was in slumber for like 200 years and then they somehow infiltrated the archive system and started to slowly work on removing any signs of their backstory or their ultimate demise.
Speaker 1Pretty wild, okay, yeah, yeah, pretty wild, okay, yeah, yeah, it's uh, yeah, the the fact that they have been purged, it's us it's.
Speaker 2It's very sad. Yeah, there's so much, very so. The that was one of. That was another piece of writing that was in this book that I liked is the uh, the pamphlet situation that happened in the class. I thought it was a very informative. I love the fact that right away they looked for things to authenticate that it was a real document. They were like there's no publishing date, there's no this, this or this. I was like but whoever's got a printing press, you know, at certain points in history the stories aren't regulated. Anybody with a printing press can make a press release.
Speaker 1So I guess did we? We never found out who disseminated that.
Speaker 2No.
Speaker 1Do you have a prediction about that?
Speaker 2I think that it was Farish. Oh, I do. A lot of my prediction is around the yeah, basically all of my prediction is around the fact that the oral histories that. So there was reference somewhere in there that there are several cultures who have predominantly oral histories. It was another society that was mentioned, but they were like we don't keep books, you know what I mean. So we didn't have anything to send to the archives. It was all predominantly an oral history tradition. So I'm like my big prediction is that somehow what they need is tied up in an oral history of a country that they're probably trying to dominate, decimate, whatever.
Speaker 1That's a good. I didn't even put that together, but you're right.
Speaker 2They did make that comment about the oral histories and that would be a threat to the people trying to suppress information and then jumping off of that I was like so I'm hoping that along with this cache of oral knowledge, there's also a cache of, like other people who wait prepared, knew the story and are ready to go like insta allies be cool, that would be cool.
Speaker 1That would be cool.
Speaker 2Okay, interesting so I get probably biggest prediction so far in prediction.
Speaker 1So also speaking of like people who can help right, and I can't remember the name of all this stuff, but we find out that the resistance is trying to convince some dude to like let them use some thing that's not fully in effect yet. It sounds like Violet's power could be used to power this forge or whatever this machine thing.
Speaker 2Are you talking about the Luminary?
Speaker 1The Luminary. What the hell is that? I read it twice and I'm still like what is this thing?
Speaker 2I'm not sure that I understand either. Hold on Control. F is my friend. Aracia is working on a forge to smelt a dagger, which requires a luminary which intensifies the dragon fire. So it's hot enough to smelt the special metal that goes in the daggers.
Speaker 1So it is Okay. So it is kind of like a dagger forge essentially, and then whatever conversation zayden had, the person's willing to bargain, but the bargaining chip somehow is violent right, right, that's right, because my first, when I first heard like he needs you, I was like, okay, so is it because her power is the only thing that can power it?
Speaker 1or yeah, no, they made it sound like he is a collector of oddities and which reminds me the collector in guardians of the galaxy yes, I absolutely was getting, uh, marvel marvel vibes from that right, right, okay, so that's something that's floating out there as well that we're eventually although violet needs to get a whole week of leave in order to get to this guy's place, so we'll see how that and she seems to have zero misgivings whatsoever, like no reservations, no concern, just absolutely.
Speaker 2I'm gonna go hang out with a stranger. Yeah, I may not be able to aim my lightning but who cares like okay, violet, whatever, whatever and he believes uh, you know that karis is looking to capture violet or hold her against her will and then use her signet for some unknown purpose so, yeah, we've talked a little bit about violet and some of the things she's done that have made us mad, but she's also had some really excellent moments.
Speaker 1So another one of my favorite moments this read was her and Sloane. Is that right when she poisons Sloane's competitor and she's kind of cluing in her other people, like the second years and third years around her Not really all of them, but her besties, Imogen and Rihanna and then at the end Sloane's like I won fair and square and she's like no, you did not.
Speaker 2Listen up. No, that's not what happened.
Speaker 1You need to train and this is how I'm going to force you to train. I have these letters and every week that you train I'll give you one of them. And then Imogen is like wow, I see what Zayden fell in love with. And it was just another testament to how Violet is incredibly smart. There are so many things that happen between her and Zayden that I'm like girl, my God, what are you doing? But with other things she's awesome, and that was one of those things I thought.
Speaker 2It's the dichotomy, I guess, of being a hormone-driven young person maybe Although she is 21.
Speaker 1I mean, the frontal lobe still hasn't developed, so like okay.
Speaker 2I mean it has in women, though I thought it was 25 for everybody. No, that's men.
Speaker 1That is news to me so.
Speaker 2So she should be, she should be engaging a little bit more, and I think she is. I think that you know, I think that the easy out is that the the power of her relationship with zayden is so overwhelming that it overwhelms her common sense, but I do like it when we see her be incredibly intelligent yeah, same same and just like strong.
Speaker 1So we haven't really talked about the torture scenes. But for some reason she gets to get tortured twice. Um, first in the like the practice round or whatever, yeah, but that one didn't seem as bad, but then definitely not. But then, holy hell, she got really really tortured the second time around and she, she killed it.
Speaker 2Sorry she did. No sorry, I just was like you know, if we're going to talk about, let's talk about it. Um, before I, how did you feel about Liam's hallucination being her buddy through torture?
Speaker 1I don't know what's realistic. I guess Never been tortured haven't looked into it much but I can imagine being in that much pain and having no likelihood of escape, right. No real hope that people will develop coping mechanisms, and that felt like a really solid one, right? Because the things that he was saying to her, it was basically what she knew because of all of her training she was supposed to be remembering, and having that like external vehicle in order to give it to her was a cool and smart, even if it was a subconscious, method of doing that. So what about you?
Speaker 2I I really liked it. It was very sweet and poignant and resonated with me more than I kind of thought it would. I was like, oh, it's a little, it's a little bittersweet having it be liam yeah um, yeah, I, when we first opened up onto it I was like, well, but we, we did see that body. Okay, so nevermind that, but yeah, he's definitely dead. Unless there's soul mending happening with his body that we don't know about Right, so I I really liked it. I was actually kind of surprised how much I liked it.
Speaker 1I think the writing in that. Sorry you go ahead.
Speaker 2No, that was basically it. I liked it far more than I expected.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think the writing in that sequence was some of the best writing right, and I don't know if it was the combination of the writing and the audiobook narrator, but the way she played it, the way it was written, it was very visceral, like I felt like I was watching this happen. It was totally something I could picture. Um, just yeah, I don't know like the audiobook narrator would be like breathless at times or like would talk more quietly when violet was like just waking up or whatever. Um, and so it was.
Speaker 2It was really well done, very, very well done even as a, even as a physical read it was. It was quite the page turner, like I just couldn't, yeah, stop um, and both.
Speaker 1Both times they called danon, both times, and both times he surprised me. Yeah, first time he said no, no, she's injured, so I can't, I just, I just can't.
Relationship Challenges and Double Standards
Speaker 2Then he left second time pulled the old switcheroo the second time, I let myself hope. I was like, please tell me. First off, I thought it was brilliant that liam slash violet was talking herself through, like, you don't have the defenses to keep him out, so you can do your best to make sure you know what he's seeing and that he sees stuff that he needs to know. I thought that that was brilliantly done. But, yeah, I got, I let my hopes get up, even though you know it's Dave, I, I let me. I let myself get my hopes up. So I was very happy when he turned on Varys.
Speaker 1Very happy. I kept like at the beginning I was like, okay, he's going to see her tortured. And they had that moment on the mat where he was trying to get to her and being like you know who actually cut Zayden right. Did he tell you that he was trying to get to her? And I was like, okay, whatever he wants to be her friend, he didn't know what would happen, he still sucks, but okay.
Speaker 1And then the second time I was like, okay, he's trying, he's trying to do this olive branch thing. But then he told varish about the weapon smuggling and at that point I was like, ah f him, this guy still sucks. Like that's when my hope was lost for Dave. But then he turned it around. He turned it around and that was one of my other top moments, surprisingly, because I'm not a huge Dave fan. In fact, the opposite of the fact that he both times refused to really cooperate in what was going on was refreshing. And now it's the classic love triangle. Like we couldn't just have a love pair, it had to remain a triangle somehow. And he was so out of the running for that, like you know, the end of true, the end of fourth wing, the beginning of iron flame, but now, like he's gonna be back in the running, kind of so he did some redeeming.
Speaker 1He did, he did, he did. So we're gonna have more dave in the future, is my guess.
Speaker 2It's a pretty good guess, yeah, but we'll see, yeah, we'll see. I don't know, I don't know um, was there anything else we wanted to talk about in terms of torture scenes? Uh, also, I would go back to the rsc thing about how dropping them in the woods and giving them two different maps hilarious hilarious and apt you know, uh, I will point out that our, our beloved roof. Mr slaya, uh got a hearty chuckle out of that as somebody who's had combat training experience and said that absolutely tracks. Um.
Speaker 2So yeah, I'm glad that it was realistic yeah yeah because it felt like it to you know, to us civvies.
Speaker 1So although now that I'm thinking about it, because I've done like a video about rebecca yaros on tiktok, but it was like two years ago, but I'm pretty sure she is a military wife, like, I think, her husband's in the military, so she might also have like some knowledge of what, how that would go. You know, different branches interacting, whatever, whatever.
Speaker 2So, so but even if you take out the military piece, just take two people who think they're King shit on turd mountain and their respective fields, meaning the infantry cadets, flying cadets, any two, good two groups of people who think you know they can do no wrong and they know everything yeah, yeah during that training it doesn't during that.
Speaker 1While that was hilarious during the training, I think one of the best moments with rianne and happened, if I'm remembering right, she like relieved violet. It's just like. That was one of the moments where she's like whenever you're ready, like I'm right, effing here, like I know there's something wrong with you and you're not telling me. Um, and so she was just a persistent friend, even though Violet was consistently pushing her away, and not only that, but as her squad leader or whatever. She's like. You need to sleep, so get the hell out of here.
Speaker 2I'm going to take your watch and I'm glad that it was Rhiannon that got it and not Violet. I also liked the fact that the author addressed it you know what I mean and had the conversation so that everybody knows that there's no hard feelings, like Violet didn't have designs on the role and doesn't secretly resent Rhiannon for having it.
Speaker 2I was glad that that was addressed, because ambition happens between women just as much as it does between men, yeah, so I thought it was good that that was touched on. And going back to what you said about her finally giving in and finally opening up to them, I really liked Rhiananna's reaction to the information and, yeah, that you know she continued to be thoughtful and mindful and like, okay, well, that that is a lot and, holy shit, you've been carrying this all by yourself and I'm not even mad.
Speaker 1And also, how are we gonna fix this? Yeah good, she's such a good friend, I don't know. Know, she's great Big fan of Rhiannon, I have to say this also. So I today I was looking up the just chapter summaries so I could like scroll through and remember like big events or whatever. And because I'm on audiobook, it is hysterical to me how things are spelled so, for example, um bearish's dragon, oh gosh, soulless, soulless. The way she says it in audiobook to me. I thought it was spelled soulless, s-o-u-l okay, l-e-s-s and I'm like.
Speaker 1Well that tracks, because that dragon sucks yeah, he's clearly got no soul, so I heard soulless and immediately thought yeah, I also.
Speaker 2Up until today, I thought zayden was spelled z-a-y-d-e-n, but of course it's an x just because that's why, when we started the first book, I was like I don't actually know how to say it right, yeah, I wouldn't either zaden, I'm zadeen, yeah.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, it's not even just an X, it's what X-A-D-Y-N or something.
Speaker 2Nope, there's no Y, it's X-A-D-E-N.
Speaker 1Oh, it is E Okay. Okay, I can't see.
Speaker 2But still, I'm like, I think it's yeah, zadden Anyway.
Speaker 1So every time I see things written, I'm funny.
Speaker 2So physical book readers versus audiobook reader problems? You know, it's true, no matter which series you're reading. It is so true, I can't pronounce anything and you can't spell anything.
Speaker 1Yeah, because there was another dragon. Is it Mira's dragon? One of them, its name's Tiny. I think one of the dragons at some point. Its name is Tiny, or at least that that's. That's how the audiobook narrator pronounces it.
Speaker 2I thought it was okay.
Speaker 1The best new one on dragon name, and maybe it was somebody in, maybe it was somebody in fourth wing. It could have been like I just remember there being a dragon called tiny and it made me laugh. I can't remember why, when, in what context, um I definitely don't remember all their names, so well, I'm sure it's not spelled t-i-n-y, so you probably pronounced it differently, um, but okay.
Speaker 1So, speaking of the torture, since we're so, we haven't talked about the fact that varish was trying to burn violet out at one point, and much so. I think this is my fit. I'm pretty sure I've done all my favorite moments.
Speaker 2When Tern took Solas and just shredded him Literally the top of my list I was like get him, get him. I was so relieved and I don't know what it is, but when Tern goes savage, I dig it, Because.
Speaker 2I'm like these are incredible, magical, mysterious creatures. You know, like we still don't know where the Empyrean stands on the ward, the wars and all these other things, like we just take it for granted that they're there and I did love the few times through the first half of the book where they're. Like you know, you do not command dragons and you would not be a dragon rider without a dragon. I do like those little reminders. So him grabbing Solas, and in my mind he shook him like a rat, like a dog, a terrier.
Speaker 1I know that's not really how it was described on the page.
Speaker 2I know that's not how it was described on the page. I don't care um.
Speaker 1In my mind that's what he did and it was so satisfying, so satisfying to read. Yeah, because if you are.
Speaker 2I understand that they don't command the dragons, but if you are bonded to a rider, yeah. The fact that it's normalized that they can just kill cadets, yeah, it's wild yeah, yep, um, so go tern.
Speaker 1Yes, also, I guess we haven't talked about this. And, darna, what's taking so long? Why do you think it's?
Speaker 2taking so long. Why is she still sleeping? I think she's special. I do love the fact that she is black, so I love the fact that she has big, beautiful black scales that border on purple. Um, I loved that description, um, and I I wrote down that.
Speaker 1So she's black now, so she really is toothless, um oh, we had a conversation like I had pictured her kind of like toothless, just furry, instead, um, and now she's even black, so so she is toothless, although my prediction not really a prediction, but like she's gonna be bigger than tern I'd like to think so that would be amazing, because, um, she's not terns right.
Speaker 2There are very few black dragons, but they're, they're biggins from they are biggins and tern, and sigail, sigail, yeah uh, so that's how you say that, um, tern and scale have both gone on the record, uh, a couple of times and said, no, we just looked, looked after her Right?
Speaker 1And so I'm just curious Because also is she special? Was the time-stopping thing ultra-powerful? And obviously that's changing. We don't know what the signet is going to be Ultimately, but I didn't even think about the fact that Violet's going to have two signet powers.
Speaker 2Yeah, and what the hell does that look like?
Speaker 1Yeah, we've got a lightning wielder and TBD.
Speaker 2So I thought that the whole point is that the Feather Tales I might be misremembering. I guess I had thought that any feather tail can do the time stop, I don't, or was it special I?
Speaker 1think it was just, I thought it was just andarna, like, like, as if I could have swore like feather tails could, like they had power and they could transfer the power to their riders. Um, but it's not the same power in all of them. So it's like a signet in that way, it's like a signet in that way. So will her signet relate to time? Oh my gosh, what if she could turn back time.
Speaker 2What if she's a time traveler Like? What if she's able to go back and see her dad?
Speaker 1If you're just listening the faces we just made that's a joint prediction.
Speaker 2We both get credit okay, we're time.
Speaker 1We're time traveling demons. Time, time traveling dragons pretty excited about that'd be awesome case. If it's the case, um, I don't know.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm excited like because she said something about. I could have sworn my dad told me about something. Now I wish I could remember. There was something in the last three chapters, probably before the torture she made a comment about. I could have sworn my dad had told me about X, y or Z. I'm going to have to go back and look now?
Speaker 1yeah, I don't know, it's not coming to mind. So how like are we gonna have to wait till the end of the book for her to come back, or is it gonna be like a like we had to wait for, like, the chapter right after the midpoint for the sex scene in fourth wing?
Speaker 2yes, and darna gonna come back, like I would love it if and darna um finally wakes up in chapter 36, I I would be so okay with that. I definitely thought that it was well done, writing her with a bitchy teenager voice. It's just better and Taryn basically saying it's just better for everyone if she just sleeps. That was real teenager vibes and I, I dug it yeah, same, same it was.
Speaker 1it was pretty funny. And also another voice that I found funny was violet's drunk voice. At one point violet gets drunk and then she's all slurry at least that's how the uh audiobook narrator did it and it was pretty funny. Another okay, so another moment that I thought she was so effing stupid but I guess I understand was when the mender or the healer Grady no, who was it who gave her the drink? Nolan Gave her the drink. Yeah, I wanted to punch him right in the noggin.
Speaker 2But also never accept a drink from literally anyone that you didn't see poured. So for the first abduction, the second, she just blindly drank and mentioned a weird aftertaste. I was like, ooh Bad Son of a gun, but then she did it again like three more times. I'm like stop drinking things that people hand you.
Speaker 1Yeah, only things that you bring yourself or people that you trust with your life. But then there's that exception she trusted Nolan with her life.
Speaker 2Nolan, I know, I know the other thing about that which I had.
Speaker 2I've shared all of my top fives but, I have a little bit left in terms of predictions. So, in that vein, in chapter 25, because I went back and looked it up, because I'm insane, because it was such a random moment, I'm like this has to matter. I don't even remember what they were doing in chapter 25, legitimately I, I don't remember, but it was a hooded scribe walked by and she looked to see. It looked to see but she couldn't see who it was beneath the hood and she thought it was strange, because scribes usually only come for two reasons and then she nothings it and it's never brought up again I've got goosebumps because, yeah, what the hell was that?
Speaker 2I noticed it too, but I was like, okay and then my last prediction is um, with chapter 35, at the end of chapter 35, throughout chapter 35, um, they're being called for leadership, leadership's like we've got to go.
Speaker 1We've got to go.
Speaker 2We've got to go. I am still um holding on to with a death grip. Uh, that mama soaring gale is going to redeem herself, so somehow she's calling all leadership away to try and give her daughter a chance to escape.
Speaker 1Oh, that would be such a relief.
Speaker 2I don't even know if it would be enough, but like I mean, honestly like it.
Speaker 1It goes a long way, right, If she's using her power like her military rank in order to save Violet.
Speaker 2That does quite a bit for me to to redeem her personally um so that was all my, that was all my bullets, the hooded scribe, one, though, I was particularly proud of because I'll, if you just mention it in passing, I read so fast that sometimes yeah, just goes right over. Wait a minute, not what are you doing here? Who are you?
Speaker 1okay. So it sounds like we've covered our top fives and we've covered our predictions, and I've gloated about my correct prediction, as you should, as I should. Jack walla lives for some reason. Fucking jack for some reason. Um, so what we do in every episode is pick an MVP, and we've also started for fourth wing picking follow up like a runner up MVPs right.
Speaker 1So the runner ups get a half a point, the MVPs get a point, or the runner ups get one point and the MVPs get two points, doesn't matter, but you get it. So, jessica, who do you have as your runner up this episode?
Speaker 2Okay, we do our jug roll. My runner up is going to be Rhiannon again, just because she's so damn awesome she is awesome she really is. I almost gave it up for imogen just because, uh, she did a lot more in the first half of this book, um, and and acted as like substitute friend and did it in a very, in a slightly snarky way, which I can appreciate.
Speaker 2She's like you've got five minutes. Since you're not talking to your real friends, you've got five minutes. Oh, I forgot, I don't care about that and I really appreciated that. I appreciated the tone of it and um, all of that.
Speaker 1The running montages worked for me, but brianna and brianna really delivered yeah, yeah, she was a great friend and I guess we didn't really talk about like the ptsd of it all, but that running throughout violet's experience, this first half of the book was very realistic. I think it hit. And when she kind of like explained her feelings to people, when she finally kind of let them gush out of her, it felt really, really real. And the fact that like she started running because she had witnessed somebody who couldn't run fast enough get incinerated or whatever like all of it was, it was really well done. I thought that's all um because, yeah, since you mentioned imogen, okay, my runner-up is jessinia.
Speaker 1Okay, our bestie scribe, because without her, nothing. We don't know about where the vault is, we don't know, you know, like anything about anything. She's the book getter. She's also like not told anybody about Violet's studies this whole time, so she's a real one and I just really like her. I love the fact that you can be incredibly important while not being a fighter. So big fan of jessenia, and that look on your face made me it's making me suspect something. So let's see if it is what I suspect jessica, who is your mvp for this episode?
Speaker 2Well, with a lead up like that.
Speaker 2My MVP is absolutely Yesenia.
Speaker 2I am always loving to meet a character whose value is not derived from their physical prowess or anything else, and I love the fact that jessinia is introduced to us in a very similar light as violet, as, like the archives and the scribe, lifestyle as a whole is almost monastic, almost religious, um, and violet eventually presented her as well as what you were saying right About her, her being a real one and, uh, being a good standup friend and adding value and and being incredible without having to be like a hero, a dyed in the wool hero, all of that.
Speaker 2But also then, above and beyond that, eventually Violet presents her with information that really can rock her world view and she receives it critically and attacks that as a separate problem, with resilience and with an open mind. And I thought that that was huge and spoke to the power of critical thinking and, like you know, I live in an information world and what do I? What do I do when I have to question my sources of truth and what does that mean to me and how I fit into this cause? So I I totally give it up for jesinia okay, hell yeah, big jessinia fan this, this book yeah, how about for you.
Speaker 1Well, since it's not jessinia, um, this one's a funny one, because I don't think we have picked dragons yet, but mine is tarn nice. No, I think it was partially because of the just absolute yes moment of him finally taking out like threatening solace and putting um, what's his face? The mean guy help me perish on his knees.
Speaker 1That was oh so good I highlighted it because anytime they say on your knees, I know oh my god I like that shit, um, so that how he's so like protective and funny of violet, like they went on that trek or whatever over to um to meet the rebels and make the drop, and then violet gets this tinge of jealousy and he's like you had two dragons pick you, she has none like. He's just so like practical and primal in some ways. I don't know, I just really appreciate him. Not to mention this isn't like him necessarily, but there's this one moment that I really love where violet saw tern and um, oh my god, uh, zayden's dragon sigail, sigail um, tern and sigail walking off together and their tails were swishing in unison, and then she thought it was really cute.
The Mystery of Missing Histories
Speaker 1And it was cute just to like hear it was super cute, so I big time appreciated Taryn, and Violet did some awesome things, but she also annoyed me a lot, and so she is her own worst enemy in so many ways which is so relatable. So I didn't make her my MVP just because she made me mad, just as much as she made me holler. So yeah, that's where I'm at Pick Taryn, taryn, my number one.
Speaker 2And I feel good about it. That is fantastic, yeah, okay, well, I feel like we've done our top fives, we've done our predictions, we've done our MVPs. We didn't have any questions sent in. We did have, like you said, roof Mistress Leah shared some of her takes, which were awesome and, honestly, very similar. So I would say, on behalf of both of us, invite you again. If you have any other questions that you would like to ask, or vibes or anything that you'd like to share with us for the back half of the book maybe about our predictions today or not, please feel free to message us in our various places and please do it by DM and please be mindful of spoilers where you can. But, yeah, we still would love to hear you. We're both really excited to get to the rest of this book, uh, so if you have any questions for us, uh, please share them. So with that, we will be going into the back half of this book. We will be reading from chapter 36 onward and we will be doing dropping that recording to you for September 2nd, so that'll be Labor Day weekend, ish. So, yeah, we look forward to hearing from you.
Speaker 2I want to, you know, wrap us up by saying thank you so much for tuning into our fifth episode of season five of but are there dragons brought to you by your host, jessica Sadai, and Critter XD? Please don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod? Just one. T on X. You can also find your host on social media as Critter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for us today. Thank you so much. We will see you on September 2nd with our wrap up of Iron Flame Bye.
