But Are There Dragons Podcast
Two fantasy lovers quite ready for another adventure…and by adventure, we mean podcast! Join us as we–a LOTR vet and LOTR first-timer–take on the works of Tolkien! Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time.
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Season 5 Episode 6: Iron Flame: We Liked it! We Really Liked it!
Jess and Kritter are back together again to discuss the second half of Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros, book 2 in her Empyrean series, and thoughts on the series so far!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Hello and welcome to, but Are there Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and talk about it? I'm your host, jess, and I'm your host, critter, and we are here to talk about the second half of Iron Flame and we're pretty excited. How are you doing tonight, critter?
Speaker 2:you doing tonight, critter? Oh, doing pretty good. You may notice that I am in a slightly different angle than before and that's because my setup is about half taken down because I'm moving next week. So we are in a weird. I'm on my laptop, not my desktop. I'm using a different mic, it's all.
Speaker 1:It's all different, so you know but in your usual fashion it looks flawless, so well done.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it I did get my hair done this morning, so you know we're feeling fresh, even if we're a little disheveled on the inside. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. We are cruising into Labor Day weekend, which means the summer has passed me by, and even though we've done a lot of really cool things, I can't believe September is almost here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially because that is the baby dragon's birth month.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:So he will be a year old.
Speaker 1:He will slide into toddlerdom.
Speaker 2:I know, and he's already like standing and cruising along furniture and he took a couple little tiny baby stutter steps. Today I'm not counting it as walking yet, because I want it to be a firm like step step. Not like step, step, step. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean you don't?
Speaker 2:Oh no, I love that metric because I was like he took two once and I was like we all know I love that metric because I was like he took two once and I, or, like you know, one, and then a stutter step and I was like I I think that every set of parents make their own, like the points are made up, kind of thing, and I get it, I.
Speaker 1:I, when I was in those shoes, I had said three because I knew that, like, oh, maybe it was an accident, no, it was on purpose. That was my mindset.
Speaker 2:No, I love that metric. I've been wondering what the metric is and I'm going to go ahead and resonate with that one. I'm still not sure what the metric is for first words, because he has absolutely looked at me and unpropted, been like mama, you know what I mean. And so I'm like but he's done the same for Mr Critter and he you know what I mean, and so I'm like, uh, but he's done the same for mr critter and he says, oh, you're gonna love this, okay, and friends of the podcast are gonna love this. He has a crocheted dragon. That's our bestie jessica, and mr jessica got him for christmas and now he has taken two. We go what's this? Is it a dragon? And he goes which to me that's so close. So like his first word might be dragon, which I think would be so fun. I mean obviously assuming we're not going to count the mamas and the daddas that keep getting thrown around.
Speaker 1:We have to count the mamas and the daddas that keep getting thrown around.
Speaker 2:But you can't be sure, because like, that's like data has been in his vernacular, data has been in his vocabulary for months, like everything was data at the beginning, because that's the only thing he could say, and now he's got a broader vocab and so it's like sometimes he'll look at me and say data, right, which is like no. But then sometimes he looks at me and, and so it's like sometimes he'll look at me and say Dada, right, which is like no. But then sometimes he looks at me and says Mama, and it's like yes, you know. So it's unclear. It's unclear if he knows. Yet you know what I mean. But the dragon is like if you start with a D and have a G in the middle that feels pretty deliberate.
Speaker 1:End sound at the end.
Speaker 2:Almost and almost ends down at the end Almost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he hasn't done it unprompted yet, but I'm doing my best to be like what's that I'm so excited that the dragons is even catching attention, because I was somebody who had a young one who had too many stuffies and, you know, you never knew which one he was going to light. So the fact that he even knows that exists makes my little heart happy, um yeah, he loves it. And yeah, like ride that dragon theme.
Speaker 2:Dig it. I'm working on it. I'm working on it really hard. So, anyways, that's where we're at. Personally, we're going to talk about iron flame, right? Yeah, we are. Uh, we didn't mention Iron Flame by Rebecca Yaros, and this section of Iron Flame is the second half, which I believe started with chapter 36.
Speaker 1:36 or 37. So, completely by accident, we split it based on what was roughly half the book 36. So 36. So that means that part two of the book started at chapter 37, which we didn't know when we arbitrarily broke up the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I vaguely recall at the beginning or at the end maybe, of our last discussion for the first half of Iron Flame, we were collectively complaining about a couple of things One, the fact that Zayden hadn't yet said I love you, because obviously he loved her, and two was that andarna was still asleep, and almost immediately lo and behold that chapter, the first chapter we read old zayden ryerson finally confesses his love, which took you long enough, satan. How'd you feel when that happened?
Speaker 1:Uh, I was like, okay, well, it's about damn time, yeah, as Lizzo says. Um, yeah, no, both of those things. And I, uh, honestly, I read that the night that we recorded that episode, so I was like, heck, yes, thank you, just needed to get it out of the way, you guys? Um, literally, but I had already been so tickled because we had talked about you know, this is a couple books in a row for us of choosing really interesting cliffhanger, like spots completely at random nailed it.
Speaker 2:I think we're really talented. We have a talent. Um, I think, honestly, probably my favorite part about Zayden finally saying I love you it was not that he finally said it because, like duh, obviously that was coming, but, um, it was way, way later when Dave said something along the lines of he asked Violet like do you really love him? Because I heard his confession and it basically made me fall in love. Yes, I thought that was hilarious, and usually I don't like Dave, but that made me laugh.
Speaker 1:So good to know we're still calling him Dave.
Speaker 2:I was wondering how you stood at the end of the book, I mean okay, fine, like I made the choice, like should we finally start calling him Dane Because we're on his?
Speaker 1:side. I don't know, we don't have to, we don't have to rush it we can flip-flop whatever we're feeling in the moment yes, I will say that his redemption through this book, as you had kind of foretold, has gone pretty well. Um, as far as redemption goes for any of these characters, so far he's in the lead. You know there was a certain other character I was hoping would have a little bit more of a redemption art and it was not enough for me so let's talk about it, then you're obviously talking about.
Speaker 2:Violet's mom I'm obviously talking about violet's mom. Not enough for you mama soaring gale.
Speaker 1:No, because I, let's be clear her sacrifice, her sacrifice was definitely meaningful, um, and I'm very relatable again as a mom, like I can understand that. I think that people make offhand comments about I step in front of a moving vehicle, I take a bullet, like I. I think that at a certain point you realize, oh, they say that stuff because it's real.
Speaker 2:Like it's real now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally know it now um and it's different from the inside, but not to take away from her sacrifice. But I still don't think I was really hoping for some amelioration. I was. I was hoping for some redemption towards her motives and I don't think that they're there. I think that she, she knew about the danger and she pushed her children into it anyways, and she pushed them into it Without all of the information that they needed.
Speaker 2:Alright, so you don't buy the. She thought Violet was safer In the writer's quadrant.
Speaker 1:No, I don't. I mean, I buy that. That was what she told herself okay, I buy that that's what she told herself and I understand the threat that markham posed as somebody who is going to perpetuate the lie. And, and even with that, um, I would not have sacrificed my children to the machinations of Vazquez. I would not. My children would not be part of that military regime.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what would you do with your children? I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:You know I'm sitting here with all of the confidence of a person who does not have to make that choice but and I don't feel like they got into you know, when she knew it, how she knew it were they already married? Did they already have kids, and all of that? I just feel like at some point she rose to power, she had to be in the know, and at any point in there there, don't you think you could have made a different choice for your children?
Speaker 2:huh, I guess in my mind and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought, like on conscription day you had to be in something, either infantry or the writer's quadrant or the scribes. I thought that was like I. I didn't think it was like getting enlisted in the military, I thought it was kind of like no, this is I think it was for the rebels.
Speaker 1:I don't know that it was required okay, so there are like normies.
Speaker 2:There are non-scribe military.
Speaker 1:Well, now I'm.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm being a real jerk, but I was like no, I mean it would make sense Like there has to be more Like everybody's children has to go into the military Everybody's children.
Speaker 2:I mean honestly for this society, it wouldn't surprise me I hadn't really thought it through. I assume that on conscription day, everyone because like didn't it? Say like no, am I okay? I think I'm remembering this right, that like the only people, the only no okay. Now I'm wondering it's like you take the tests right and then like, whatever you qualify for, you essentially get like drafted into it, but you can elect to do the writer's quadrant right the writers is not mandatory for anybody but the rebels children right.
Speaker 2:And so then the question is is that just for people who go into the military or is it for everyone? But again, like there has to be, there have to be people who are in the military. That would make sense if they all were right.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, I guess that's a whole in my knowledge and I think that's where my mind you know, I'm coming from my high horse over here and I get it about this make a new place. But I'm like I I just think that whatever she knew when she knew it, I would have, I would like to think that she would have made better choices for her kids. Okay, so that all three of them go through as a machinery.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I mean, I guess if there was another way, the non-military, non-scribes, non-infantry, non-writer way, then yeah, that would have been the choice.
Speaker 1:If it is like you're painting it, which honestly hadn't occurred to me that there wouldn't be a civilian part of the population, Because I understand the pressure. Like you're in the military, your children should be in the military. I do understand that perspective. But if everybody's kids has to do one or the other, then it gets grayer, then it gets murkier, because in the infantry infantry are fodder you know the infantry are, or fodder. You know the infantry are definitely perfect portrayed as red shirts yes, exactly, um.
Speaker 2:So then it's a choice between the scribes and the and the flyers um the riders, um, yeah, but once the scrib to me the scribe's place wasn't a safe place then yeah, she basically thought because violet was like the prodigy, the protege, whatever that she was inevitably going to find out the secret and she was going to rage against the machine. Which, surprise, that's exactly what she did. Yeah, um, but had she gone through the writer's quadrant, not attached at the hip to Zayden, without falling in love with him, then she never would have found out. She would have been just like Meera, she would have just gone off into the world and had just as much of a chance as anybody else.
Speaker 2:So, I don't know, I have to disagree. I forgave General Sorengale. I really did. Also like the deal that she struck was aid to protect Violet, right, he's one of the only people who had enough power amidst the rebels to stop everyone else from hurting Violet, right? And he did exactly that. So, so the general not only put her in the writer's quadrant, which she allegedly thought was safer, but then added a safeguard over top of that. Um, not to mention she gave violet the book, right, and and then this, the huge giant sacrifice at the end. So I know I've been a hater, I've been drinking the haterade for general sorghill this whole time, but this second half of iron flame just completely absolved her for me.
Speaker 1:So I will say it was a huge payoff, like it was great to read. So even though I was not, I didn't really necessarily felt like it was enough to exonerate her. From a reading perspective, from a reader's perspective, I loved the payoff of it. I thought that it was high stakes and a great way to end, you know, a middle book for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was her sacrifice at the end was super powerful and the way they all reacted to it. And, honestly, like, I have my complaints about the audiobook narrator. Like I feel like she does a good job overall, but there are certain sentences where she like emphasizes the wrong word. You know what I mean. Like it's kind of hard to describe, but like like, for example, whenever um they met with, can't remember who they met with. Uh, like whenever violet's mom was there. Was it markham? Who the hell was it that the j?
Speaker 1:Melgren.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so Melgren was there and then the guy with the rebels or whatever was there and they were like trading bars or whatever, and he's like, oh, melgren was like, oh, I thought you might not be here, and the guy responded and he was like, well, I hoped you be or something. It was like the way she, like you know, like instead of being like you would be, her cadence was just wrong and I was like it took me out and she's done that a few times. But, um, some of the, some of the moments that have been like really emotional, she really nailed and she nailed that like violent, reacting to her mom, mira, um, brennan, all of them Like she did a really good job there. So it it hit, you know it hit hard, it hit, it hit good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, um I definitely overall really liked this book more than the first book. Same, um, I do feel like I and again it's probably a mixture, but I think the writing has advanced some and I think the characters have advanced some, so I think there's just an overall better reading experience for me this time around.
Speaker 2:I agree, I will say so I've. I read this book like immediately when we recorded the last episode. I read it like right away, and then I was like, oh my gosh, I finished so quickly. I'm going to forget everything that I read by the time we have this recording. So I started it over a little, like a little faster, you know like 1.75, maybe two times speed, whatever and I finished it immediately. It was so fast and so it had been like I have had this half of this book finished twice for over a week and a half, and so just today I had it going on like three times speed and I almost made it all the way through. I almost made it all the way through. So it's very fresh, thankfully.
Speaker 1:The problem is is now I know just how fast that is. So, for anybody who doesn't know, I have always been a tactile reader, whether it's a physical book or a Kindle. I have never tried to do audio, and I am now trying to do audio with my gap book at the behest of mr jessica. Dungeon crawler, carl is his new favorite drug, um, and so he's like you have to try it. You have to try it, audiobook style. I work from home uh, I don't, and but I can't listen while I work because my job requires me to do cognitive things.
Speaker 1:I can't sure same yeah, so I'm trying to manifest times to listen to audio book. All of that aside, there's way too much information. I know that I can only live in 1.2 to 1.5 for net new information, because anything faster and I don't think you're speaking English anymore, it's all going by and that's dungeon crawler, carl, like that's. You know it's classified as lit rpg, so it's, it's light, it's light stuff okay, I need to double check to see how fast.
Speaker 2:Okay. So for my most recent today speed read, I had it at 2.9, and that is about as fast as you can get it with this narrator without it literally being gibberish, and the only way I could swing it was I've read it twice and so I knew what I was listening to. You know what I mean. Like it wasn't new information.
Speaker 1:I'm just so new to it that a lot of times you talk about how fast you listen to it too, and we talk about it in the discord and you guys are talking about like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a fast reader too. Now I can, now I know it, now I feel it. Um, because I'm like 1.2. I started at one I was like, oh gosh, no, this is too slow, way too slow for me. Uh, you're stopping to breathe and stuff. Quit it. Um so, but anything more than 1.5 and I nothing okay, that's fair, that's fair.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what I was trying to lead up to when I said that I've reread it that many times, but anyways, it's fresh again, which I'm excited about, and uh, yeah, um, oh, oh, I now. Now I know what.
Speaker 1:I was going to say Back on track.
Speaker 2:So during my reread, so the first time I read the whole thing like I don't skip anything, whatever. Second time I didn't skip anything either. This time I did choose to skip the sex scenes Because it's just to me, like you said, the writing is better. I agree that it is, but like those to me do not add any value and I think it's just the type of stuff that I like to read. Like I guess I am just not like this kind of romanticity, like these. I don't know if I don't know if other kind of sex scenes would appeal to me, but I just find them to be very repetitive in some ways, I don't know, and uh, and just kind of like they're taking up time that could be spent with the plot. I don't know, I don't know. Um, that's where I'm at, uh. So yeah, other than the sex scenes, though, like you know, it's a, it's a fun, I mean with them even.
Speaker 2:It's a fun story and it was a superior story to the first book in my opinion. I think I gave it like a solid four stars on Goodreads.
Speaker 1:Now that I'm thinking, If book one had been this caliber, it would have been an automatic. Yes, you know how we were on the fence when we got done with book one and we weren't sure how we felt. I think that if book one was a comparable read to how I felt at the end of this book, it would have been a yeah, we're square, go, let's keep going.
Speaker 2:Definitely going. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Yeah, I gave it four stars because it's a solid read. That's a is that a catholic school? B not bad at all. Yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what else happened? Um, okay, so we had like, we got introduced to cat though we got introduced to her before earlier, but we really got introduced.
Speaker 1:We really got to see some backstory on zayden um and and this takaris person who is her dad, and that that the arrangement that was between them, and it was fascinating. I thought that that was really interesting. I liked all of that. I liked that this book had a lot of well. This is how the other half lived, both with the rebellion side and with the flyer side. I liked that contrasting viewpoint.
Speaker 2:You know, the Flyers have a lot going for them, Like the fact that they think the writer's quadrant is so absurdly brutal. I think it's so spot on. Like thank God people have sense in this universe. Like, yeah, no, we don't die and wash up on the shore, we just join a different branch of the military.
Speaker 1:So did you have not to keep comparing, comparing to other media, but do you keep having wheel of time flashbacks? So I had. So between the talks about the weaving for the runes and okay, that, yes, that did, and the flyers, you know jumping off a cliff into water um no big throwbacks to wheel of time for me okay, yeah, the from the show.
Speaker 2:I didn't put those, I didn't put that together at all. That to me reminded, I guess now just thinking about it, it didn't remind me at the time, but it kind of reminds me of, uh, like avatar oh, sure, yep you know, with those like flying birds and avatar one or what. They're not birds, whatever they are, I don't know what they are. That kind of evokes that image.
Speaker 1:That's probably more comparable.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe a little bit. So they go to this place that's got the ornamental grass and cat and apparently a oh my god, I lost what they're called the sorcerer guys evil people, thank you, wow. It's, uh, it's a really good day for me right now, today. Um, a venom in a chest yeah, in a floating test were you shocked.
Speaker 1:I was shocked, um again, I, I'm not, I'm not the thinker in the family, I'm not the one going, going. Oh, it's going to be this and it's going to be this. That's Mr Jessica. He's the one who's like I think it's going to be this, this, this and this. When we get done recording an episode, he's like so what do you think is going to happen next? I'm like, I don't know, I'm just along for the ride. Yeah, just chilling. Just yeah, just chilling.
Speaker 2:Just chilling. I do love being right about predictions.
Speaker 1:I do, but they have to, like they happen to me. I don't manifest them.
Speaker 2:Yes, amen, same.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the Venom in the chest was wild, just the floating chest. The concept of the floating chest was kind of a very neat thing. Concept, uh, because obviously we have magic in this world, uh, but that's, that's different that's pretty, pretty bizarre, um, it was.
Speaker 2:I love how he was like no, zayden can't come down with you, but then miras like eff it, I'm going, and they just let her, you know, whatever. Um, although I guess he would be happy to get rid of as many sword gills as possible. So maybe that was why, um, but yeah, violet just kind of like nailed it once again. She did a. Really, she brained it up, right, like in the same way that she, whenever the um wyvern showed up when they were scaling that cliff, right, she, she uses that brain of hers and just absolutely slays.
Speaker 1:I think that every time she's had a problem in front of her so when they were scaling the cliffs with the flyers, when they brought this Sven in, and then later on in this book every time she's had to come up with a unique solution. Those are payoffs that I've really like. I made a note about that, that I those are things that I really liked about this book, that I feel like the writer did a great job giving us unique solutions and even just when we're reading them even though action's not always necessarily a thing that draws me like combat's not necessarily my thing draws me like combat's not necessarily my thing um, she's always got my attention. She's doing a really good job with those scenes and giving her really, uh, tasty solutions. I don't know any other way to describe it no, it's true, it's.
Speaker 2:It's like it's not just you know who's got the bigger sword. Right, it's who's, in her case, who's got bigger brain, which is a refreshing way to read a fight scene. Yeah, because that's not always what you get.
Speaker 1:We had some good sibling energy, and so, as an only child, I will ask you once again how do you feel the sibling dynamics went?
Speaker 2:Wait, you're an only child. I'm an only child.
Speaker 1:Okay, uh, wait, you're an only child, I'm an only child, okay, so I can't speak to it. Um, but we finally get the moment where mira knows that brennan's alive and as an only child. I'm like that tracks. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:no 100. That's how I would have reacted as well. Obviously she was happy, but then also pissed, and I would have been the same. I think the sibling dynamic was kind of perfect, honestly, and you know, what's funny actually is I have an older brother and a younger sister, oh yeah, and so it is kind of the same, I guess, as the soaring gales, and yeah that makes me mira, then, that makes me Mira.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm not Violet. I mean, I guess I'd like in some ways, in some ways I would be kind of Violety.
Speaker 1:But I can see you as a badass captain well, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2:Like I'm a little, probably more physical than Violet, you know, like I've always been, like, uh, like an athlete, you know, violet makes up for her shortcomings. I was going to say I feel like Violet's physical capability has advanced.
Speaker 1:through the book there were some things she still mentions that's going to hurt, or she braces to take the hit or whatever. But I do feel like there was a scene talking about her just running for all. She's got to try and make it to the ward stone and she actually landed the whatever. The running dismount is where you basically yeah, yeah. It's like a running stop off of a moving dragon.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 1:Something like that.
Speaker 2:So I think the sword swing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think her physicality has advanced and I feel like she's being portrayed that way, but not to a point that makes it like, oh, she's just all of a sudden OP.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like physically dangerous. She's just very skilled. She's got skills now which make her dangerous, like in the fight against Kat right, like she wasn't bigger than Kat. Kat had like five inches on her or something, I think. Like they said Kat was bigger than her and yet she won the fight because of her skill and rage and all kinds of stuff. How did you feel about that confrontation? By the way?
Speaker 1:It was good. I thought that it had to happen. I thought that it was very satisfying for it to happen on the page and get it out of the way. Also for Kat to be somebody who can inflame people's emotions.
Speaker 1:I thought that that was an interesting power for her to wield. I also liked the fact that the author decided to say you know later, while Zayden and Violet are talking about what happened with Kat and really stoking Violet's insecurities, that it couldn't happen if her insecurities didn't exist. And I was like I'm really glad that that is the way you chose to portray that, because you know you can't create an emotion that doesn't exist. So I found that all to be very satisfying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm torn about that scene personally Because when I look back on it and what I remember about it, it's giving catfight and I'm wondering because would I feel that way if it was two guys? You know what I mean. And I think if it were two guys then I would assume it's a dick measuring contest and but with the two girls, to me it's giving cat fight and I don't know because, like the way that violet gets so riled up because of cat to be fair, like it's not her fault but she gets super riled up and like her internal dialogue is just this, like you know what I mean, it kind of reminds me of mean girls. The regina george scene, where it's like you know what I mean. It kind of reminds me of Mean Girls. The Regina George scene, where it's like you know what people say about you. They say you're a homeschool jungle freak who's a less hot version of me. That's kind of what I'm getting from that it's fair and it's not completely fair again, because it's a military school.
Speaker 2:Sparring is very common and part of the practice and also it was very necessary. But did it do anything between Violet and Kat? It didn't resolve anything. They hated each other even more after that. So yeah, I'm back and forth on it. It was fun to see Violet almost kill her. Good Get it. But at the same time I don't love to see my main characters just completely lose control, even if it's not their fault.
Speaker 2:Well and does it propel the story? Yeah, yeah, and I mean I guess the conversation that she had with Zayden after the fact was the more satisfying part of all of it, I think, yeah, that's a valid point.
Speaker 1:I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know the fact that he tried to prove himself. Obviously I've never been on my knees for her, she's never been on this throne, all that stuff just kind of boosting Violet up. I was like, oh, that's nice. But also I wish for her. She's never been on this throne, all that stuff just kind of like boosting violet up. I was like, oh, that's nice. But also like I wish you didn't need that. I wish you would just be more confident. But obviously I'm not saying I'm immune to jealousy. Like it's a hard emotion that people face all the time, so it's totally understandable well, and jealousy and insecurity beat off of each other in such gnarly ways.
Speaker 1:True true, yeah.
Speaker 2:And she's still young, very young you know, not going to be as sure in herself as, say, you know us wizened women.
Speaker 1:Some of us are more wizened than others, but anyways, yeah so excellent points. I think we had some really killer dragon fights too. If I can pivot for just a second, 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's pivot. Yeah, what was your favorite dragon fight?
Speaker 1:I mean it's got to be my girl, indarna. Okay in the cave.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, that's what I was.
Speaker 1:I love that fight so I mean she's her. Her in that scene is like number two on my top five moments on this list.
Speaker 1:She did she was incredible. So she has taken over, I feel like the bratty teenager vibes have kind of segued from violet to andarna and but even andarna is kind of moving through them at a, at a reasonable clip, so it's great. Um, she still, you know, got a little extra sass. Um, but yeah, I, I, really I. Last book it was like tyron doing a lot of not a lot, but, you know, when he had really kind of vicious moments where he took the other dragon by the throat or whatever, I was like, oh yeah, excellent reminder that these are dangerous creatures, and so, and Darna taking the spotlight for me for this book in that, way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she that was. It was a great scene. She like protected them all, shielded them with her body Taryn couldn't get to them, so it was all up to her and then she killed him. She killed Solas Like slay, literally, literally. It was so satisfying to me, right, and that scene was so good because it was like it felt claustrophobic, it felt it did like you felt hot, you could feel the fire, right. It was like it was. And uh, and violet protected, cat and every in every and um, oh my gosh, what's her name? Liam's sister manifested her signet Sloane, sloane, yeah, and so all of that and the fact that she was like I'm not a Am I a Venon.
Speaker 1:I look back at that now, and I'm like there were so many signs pointing to Venon. Where was I?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally fair reaction, because she didn't know what siphoning was. So that was also up there in my top scenes Because, again, I don't usually like fight scenes, but that one was just very unique, satisfying and visceral and it starred our girl, andarda. Speaking of Andarda, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Oh, just to cap that off, that she was just so I will be where I need to be, you know, Just get it girl yeah yeah to be. You know, just get it girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, let's keep talking about Indarna, right? Because the twist of the book is that she's her own breed, she's her own type of dragon, which, honestly, now that I reread the book three times I reread the second half should have been obvious. You know, every time Violet saw her, it was like, oh, she's actually purple. Obvious, you know, every time Violet saw her it was like, oh, she's actually purple today. You know, like she's got that. Why does she look like that? Like like when is she going to start looking more like tear, like I should have noticed.
Speaker 1:I didn't notice.
Speaker 2:Did you?
Speaker 1:No, no, even though, like her, her, no, even though, like her, her, her scales are so black they look purple, purple in the light, or whatever I was like oh, I'd love that.
Speaker 2:That sounds beautiful, you know, like lovely whoosh right over the head yeah, violence, like oh, probably because she's an adolescent, I was like totally, let's move on. Um, but then I also the book, the like. Every time she read the like the six and the one combined, I was like what do they mean by the one combined? That's her right, because she's all the colors.
Speaker 1:That's all I can think of is that she's all of the bloodlines, Because they're all bloodlines, right? The whole point is that each color traces a different bloodline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. Except for that they didn't know what color Andarna was going to be, even though at least Tern, I thought, knew who her parents were.
Speaker 1:Well, and I feel like he but. Andarna's just sleeping a long time waiting for Violet to come along. I remember that part from the read, but I mean Taryn's pretty old so he probably still does know who her parents are.
Speaker 2:Maybe I might have been misremembering. I might have remembered that the elders knew, Because the elders also knew about her breed from the get-go. When taryn didn't right, that's what they said I think so yeah, I think so too I haven't learned a lot about the empyrean yeah, I mean, it's kind of whatever I pick up as I'm reading, which isn't always that much, um, but but yeah, but then the, the big the. The thing that jessenia came up with was what, instead of six, it was seven.
Speaker 1:Right, that was the thing yes, oh yeah, but I don't think I have that highlighted um it's okay.
Speaker 2:It's okay because, like in now that I'm like okay, so instead of six and the one combined, it was seven and the one combined, but that, but then that would mean Indarna is part of the seven but then also the one, or not. I don't know. If somebody knows what the hell's going on with that prophecy for that rule book or that guidebook, let me know Describe it in detail.
Speaker 1:But only let Critter know Don't tell me, I'll wait and find out when I read it.
Speaker 2:Oh wait, we in detail, but only let critter know, don't tell me, I'll wait and find out when I read it. Oh wait, we did read it, though, that's. That's what happened.
Speaker 2:This book yeah, but I I'm assuming there's more to come in the next book oh okay, I guess all I want to know is based on the rule book or based on the guidebook, which I believe said the seven and the one combined. Is Andarna the one, or is she one of the seven and the one combined is just the ward stone? I don't know. That's all I want to know, which I feel like is kind of what happened in the book. Yeah, you can just.
Speaker 1:I couldn't do the ward stone. So who was okay? Yep, I got confused. I got really confused. Uh, because violet? Because it was the six versus the seven, and just then you found it because that had to do with how many runes they had when they were bolstering or setting up to, like, imbue the ward stone, what? Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2:now I'm gonna, I'm gonna back away you might be right, you might be right, I don't remember um, I'm gonna go back and read it again okay. Well, that's see, isn't it embarrassing? Technically?
Speaker 1:I didn't get to the end, so I've only read that part twice I was more interested in what was happening with Violet and her mom, and then Zayden.
Speaker 2:I didn't give a shit about the Wardstone at that point. Yeah, oh. But speaking of the Wardstone, right, okay. So another twist Mm-hmm. F-ing. What's-his-face was a Venon Jack, jack Barlow.
Speaker 1:F-ing Jack Barlow. F'ing Jack Barlow.
Speaker 2:F'ing Jack Barlow and killing his dragon.
Speaker 1:I was so personally offended by that.
Speaker 2:I will say that was in one of my top scenes because of how horrifying it was. It was shocking and horrifying. And this book, you know it's good, it's fun, fun, but it's not always gonna get huge emotions out of me. But that scene I was like what? Yeah, like it blew my mind.
Speaker 1:That scene was wild what you were saying, I was like, oh so his eyes have been bloodshot like this whole time, and okay, yeah, no, it was. You know, it was enough of a reveal, because obviously we left the last episode with you know, tbd on, you know is jack really reformed, and I thought the big deal was that they were just trying, you know, they brought him back from the dead, um, not that they were trying to cure his venin status, um, so know, the fact that he turns out to be a Venon is a lot less alarming than the fact that he's willing to sacrifice his own dragon, which is just yeah, we hate him.
Speaker 2:So he can be a Venon. That's fine, although the fact that Venon can operate in the wards is a discovery that I didn't love, although I guess it's not now after the end of the book, kind it's kind of a good thing, right? Yeah, like we don't want zayden to die because he's in the wards we don't think so.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, and zayden going to talk to jack barlow. You know that's a strong, so I had to. I got about halfway through the last chapter and again had to go back and go right. This chapter is from Zayden's perspective. I forgot again.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, uh yeah, that was a surprise.
Speaker 1:Where were?
Speaker 2:you at, with Zayden becoming a Venon.
Speaker 1:I was first off, you know, tipping my hat to Rebecca Yarris. I was like that's a killer. Ending to a subsequent book, like well done. And even before I finished reading that chapter, I'm like he must have thought he had no other choice. And then the other part of my brain, the quieter part of my brain, is going that still doesn't make it okay or less scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, violet was still like sleeping with him or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yes, he woke up in bed next to her. I was like I think I found that part more alarming than the Venom reveal. Honestly, I was like so we're hearing, we're seeing his perspective on how that fight ended. And then we just got dot dot dot. He wakes up in the middle of the night, leaves bed and goes to talk to you know, effing Jack Bartlow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I don't know enough about what happens when you become a Venant, right, because they're like, oh, it's these evil people who reach for power that they shouldn't have access to. But we got his perspective. He reached for that power because he was backed into a corner and he felt like he had to right. So it wasn't like evil motive Right a corner and he felt like he had to right. So it wasn't like evil motive, right. Um. So does it fundamentally change your soul when you become a venin or not? And so you know that's gonna have to get answered in the future, and my biggest question is either it's going to be fine, like you can still be a good person while being a Venon and probably like really freaking powerful, or they're going to find a cure, because I feel like Zayden can't just be a problem. I don't know. I don't know, maybe she'll kill him. Wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 1:That would be something I don't know. I don't know, maybe she'll kill him. Wouldn't that be something? That would be something I? I I want Zayden to be okay, but part of me is, like, does Zayden have to be the sacrifice?
Speaker 1:So there are a couple of comments that have been made about how Zayden's not inherently good. Um and and um, I would have to like actually go into my kindle to find the sections that I'm thinking of. But people have been like it's not, he's not making benevolent choices, he's making choices because they're the choices you want him to make, talking about the power struggle between them, because you know, if any one of them dies that are bonded to each other, it endangers the other. Um, and so there were a couple pieces of that. One is, I had highlighted, I'm not powerful just because he loves me, which is something that violet was thinking, which I found to be very kind of lamenting and sad, and I can like, oh, that makes me sad.
Speaker 1:I would feel sad too. Um, then other people that he, she talked to, um in Aredia, I think, saying you know, like he's not a benevolent person by nature, like he's not making these choices for the greater good. He's making these choices, because you know he's following your direction or whatever, um, and that just kind of stuck with me and so I'm like I don't want zayden to be problematic, but I don't know how surprised I would be if he becomes problematic yeah, I guess I don't really know the formula for these like romanticist books, but how wild would it be if dave was endgame that that feels like a switcheroo.
Speaker 2:It would be huge. I've read Romantic City and I'm not going to say what, where things get switched up, but it's usually pretty early. Two books in, she's still helplessly, hopelessly in love with him, even though he's a Venon. So he would have to die, I would think, or just become objectively evil. But man, that would be a huge switch. Flipped like it would be damn. It'd be a major whiplash for the reader, which you know what it could.
Speaker 1:Be fun, like I like emotional reactions, I don't know yeah, there was a comment made in there, um, when they got to a point where they were admitting how they feel about each other, about how, uh, you know, even though I love you, if we can't find a way to do this in a healthy way, I'll still walk away yeah um, so we'll see. We'll see if that goes anywhere. But those were just things that kind of stuck with me through this read about Zayden build up.
Speaker 2:What could it possibly be? This is, you know, and in him, you know, how long does it take someone to fall out of love like a lot of it was just like come on, guys, this is like I feel like, when explained, it's not that devastating of a signet as they made it out to be in in my opinion. Like he can't read thoughts, he can read intentions and he, according to him, he's only done it to her a few times, it mostly unintentionally, you know, like I don't know she like the whole pearl clutching about that signet to me was kind of overdone. How did you feel about it?
Speaker 1:um, I also felt it was dramaticized. Uh, I also felt, though, that that instructor walking out and, you know, essentially breaking that kid's neck was super dramatic, yeah. So I'm not quite sure why intention sensing, I'm not quite sure I'm aligned with them and how they view this signet. If Dane, if Dave, can see your memories, how is that less invasive?
Speaker 2:than zayden, being able to sense your intentions and he doesn't even have to touch you he doesn't even have to touch you yeah, well, and he did say like I felt like dave when I was doing it at a certain point, right, and so at least he recognized that what he was doing was problematic but there were other.
Speaker 1:What's to stop violet from casting fireball in school? You know just, they're all wielding powers and any power in the wrong hands can be used maliciously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like immediate death for people who can read thoughts is pretty extreme, and part of me wonders if that's the rule in the book, just so that Zayden's reveal could be that dramatic, potentially, when you think about it. They're fine with seeing the future, they're fine with reading memories, and all of this is because it can help with battle. You know what would be really handy in battle Reading minds. So I don't know. Yeah, I do wonder if that's a device to make Zayden's reveal more's reveal a means to an end, basically yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:Obviously it's a extreme, you know, like probably one of the most powerful signals you can have and it would take a lot to control it as we. So yeah.
Speaker 1:So in terms of favorite moments, I only had one other one, which is just a very little one compared we we hit all the broad strokes of my big ones. Um, okay we don't eat allies, so yeah this was said a couple of times we don't eat our allies, uh, and it gave me such fisher friends, not food, but I loved it so much, and and and darna parroting it back like a snarky teenager uh was just just right so.
Speaker 2:No, that was definitely worth talking about 100%. I do feel like I think we've covered all of my favorite moments. I can't think of any that I liked more than what we've talked about, but I will say that this book, a lot happened in this book, like more than happened in Fourth Wing. Fourth wing, I think it covered a ton of ground, um, even in the second half of the book. Right, we go to the place with the ornamental grass, the butterfly garden or whatever. Yeah, we, we go all the way back to bezgayeth. We're in, you know, the castlevania or whatever, castle ryle or ryerson, we're all over the map.
Speaker 1:We're all over the map. Sorry, I love it so much. Dave from Castlevania.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's just we did that like mountain scaling scene. There were multiple like intense action scenes, again just in the last half of the book because of the stupid venin in the chest like wild scene. The cave scene, the uh freaking, the wyvern on the on the switchbacks scene, the gigantic battle at the end, jack underneath the, the ground killing his dragon. There's so much stuff that happened that was just like breakneck paced excitement. And again, I'm not a battles girly and none of those felt too battle-y to me so I got to give a shout out to Rebecca Yaros there, you didn't get too deep into the battle minutia.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I feel like she strikes a good balance. You know what? I mean I feel engaged, but I can follow along. It doesn't start to lag, it doesn't get too battle-y.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of interpersonal interaction, I think, during her battles, which helps, right. The plot is continuing Violet's completing a thing that she was going to have to complete to graduate and it's like this really exciting thing. And that's just in the middle of the battle, right, and we can all be really excited. People die, people get super injured. We have to worry if they're gonna die like it's. There's just more to it than fighting, which I appreciate yeah, appreciate it, yeah, agreed okay.
Speaker 2:So we talked about our favorite moments, we talked about the book. I think it's time to talk about our mvps, which is something that we do every episode. So we've started doing mvp runner-up and mvp and, since this is our final discussion about Iron Flame, we can take the scores from last discussion and the scores from this discussion to come up with our primo MVP, the MVP of all MVPs for Iron Flame. So, jessica, who is your runner up MVP for this episode?
Speaker 1:Jessica, who is your runner-up, mvp for this episode. Okay, I will say that for the second half of the book it was. It was neck and neck for a bit, but I will go with for my runner-up and Darna. Okay, she came to the forefront, she came to slay and she definitely did that. Um, she came to slay and she definitely did that. Yeah, she's there for her, bonded, and I was very impressed with her. She, you know, had some snark while she was learning some different things, working on her wing skills and strengthening those muscles, but I feel like she was very present and very critical in this half of the book.
Speaker 2:Absolutely critical. Totally agree with that. Did I get a little annoyed that she didn't let Violet know earlier? That could have helped. But I mean she did explain it away. If you didn't figure it out, then you're not worthy of it.
Speaker 2:She's a little snooty a little, a little, but like you could have saved so many lives. But no, she did. She did amazing, this time like huge shout out to andarna. So my runner-up mvp is Yesenia, because once again, everybody dies without Yesenia. She's the one who figured out the difference. She came what? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the only reason the wards went up. She came along to a war zone as a scribe so that she could be there if she figured it out there, if she figured it out. And then she figured it out and literally saved the day. There's. Just without her, they all die. That's where, so definitely worthy of a runner up spot, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Heck yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, Jessica.
Speaker 1:Okay so it was your time for my MVP for Iron Flame. It is Violet. I'm giving it to her this time. I feel like she did enough growth and did enough thinking on her feet.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Very judgy. I'm a very judgy reader but I I felt like I feel like in the first half of the book you had made the comment about sometimes you were just really annoyed with her, and I had that similar experience and I felt a lot less of that in the second half of the book. I feel like she's really coming into her own and every time she's problem solving and she's doing it in ways that are not selfish. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:She's doing it in smart ways, using all the resources at her um disposal yeah and so I felt comfortable giving it to her this time because, as we know from past but are there dragon? Um, our, our heroes aren't always our mvps no, those main protagonists.
Speaker 2:Really, I think we judge them harsher than everybody else. Um so I'm glad that violet got some love from you yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 1:So that leads me to ask critter for the end of iron flame. Who is your MVP?
Speaker 2:You're gonna hate this.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's General Sorengale. Oh gosh, honestly, when you said that earlier, I was like, oh, literally, I've decided I swear. Before we started this episode it was like I'm going to make sure that I have my opinion and a hundred percent it's her, because of all the things I said earlier. The way she believed she was protecting Violet by sending her to the writer's quadrant, she enlisted Zayden to protect her further and she gave them the books so she they could figure out the ward, so that they could be protected behind the words too. And and then she sacrificed her self, her life, for her children like, and for the wards, so that the wards could go up, and saved everyone. So, uh, as far as impact goes, biggest and best, that's where we're at I knew it was going to be a hard line.
Speaker 1:I knew that I was being really exacting with her I was too honestly before this.
Speaker 2:I maybe I'm just super forgiving, but no, I think.
Speaker 1:I think a reasonable person could be like that's a lot, that was a lot, that was a lot. I just, and it's fine, because a lot of times we are kind of neck and neck. It's more fun when we're not it's true right in lockstep. The way you led with that just made me laugh oh, let me just start the podcast with how much I am not impressed. With your MVP, with your MVP, it turns out Okay.
Speaker 2:So I have a little note card here that's got our tallies. So let's see I think I know who it is.
Speaker 2:I think I do too. So your MVP last time was Yesenia, so that's two points for Yesenia, and she has been a runner-up twice, so that's four points for Yesenia. Yep, rhiannon got a runner-up once. Everybody else has only been nominated once. Taryn got first from me last time, violet got first from you, so they both have two, and Darna got second, so she's got one, and General Sorengale also has two, so we have Jacinia in the lead MVP with four points.
Speaker 1:A bookish MVP. Who'd have?
Speaker 2:thought A bookish MVP with second place tying. Tying for second Tern Violet and General Swordgill.
Speaker 1:It's good stuff, it is it is yeah, she pulled her weight. Yes, through the whole book.
Speaker 2:Through the whole book, Through the whole book. So yeah, I have no regrets. I feel like this makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, thank you so much for tuning in to our sixth episode of Season 5 of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai, me, critterxt. Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons? On YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod, just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media at CritterXT and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We'll keep you posted on our next read on the socials, soon, hopefully, and we commend iron flame to malik. Bye, bye.
