Season 7 Episode 3: DCC Book 2 Carl's Doomsday Scenario

Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. For our seventh season, we're reading Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman! This episode covers Book 2, Carl's Doomsday Scenario, Chs 1-14, with Jessica as the vet and Kritter as the first timer, and special guests Matt the Innkeeper and Brian the Gleeman, who have read all of the DCC books, and are also huge Wheel of Time fans.

Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.

Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix

Transcript

Welcome And New Guests

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and talk about it. I'm your host, Critter. And I'm your host Jess. And we're here to talk about the first half, chapters one through 14 of Carl's Doomsday Scenario by Matt Dinneman. Pretty excited, but before we do that, we're going to introduce our very, very special guests who we are very excited to have on the podcast for the very first time. We have Brian the Gleeman and Keeper Hatch. There we go. There he is. I feel like we're in uh not full house, but the Adam, not Adam family guys. What is it? Tell me out. The Bradywood.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I was gonna say Hollywood Squares, but same different.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Um, Brian and Matt do a podcast called Bar Side Chats, uh, which is super fun, a lot of like fantasy stuff. Uh I'll let you guys describe it if you want to. And Matt, the innkeeper hatch is the innkeeper of the Dusty Wheel YouTube show, which took the world by storm during the reign of the Wheel of Time show on Prime Video. Um, although it is on like a minor hiatus or you know, a pretty big hiatus right now because the Wheel of Time is over. But I will let Matt and Brian talk about themselves um to the extent that they want, and then we will jump in to our first segment.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yep, you can go first. No, you talk about yourself first. No, fine, I'll talk.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

So Matt and I have been friends for a long time and we've done a lot of podcast together, worked in the Dusty Wheel together. Uh we've uh I read a lot. I've read Dungeon Crawler Carl, I've read all the books uh Matt has read. Well, I guess he's read Dungeon Carla Carl. So uh we're thrilled to be here, happy to talk about uh whatever you want to talk about with the book.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Matt? Yeah, and uh I'm a casual Wheel of Time fan now.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

That's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

And uh no, yeah, I'm uh Brian, like Brian's uh told everybody that watches the Dusty Wheel. I haven't read a lot of books lately. Um and I can't remember, it was a friend at work who was like, Hey, have you ever read Dungeon Carler Carl Carl? I cannot say that by the way. Dungeon Carler Carl, I have to say it really slowly. Um and I guess everyone at work seemed to be reading it. And so I was like, Oh, it's Christmas break. I will I will pick up a book and disconnect from the world. And so I think I read the first one in like a day, and then I was like, uh, I don't have the second book, and so I started basically now I own all the books and I own all the books on Kindle and I own all the audiobooks. Um, so yeah, it took me, I think, like four weeks to get through the first are there seven, are there eight? I don't know. Seven.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

There's seven shots.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Um and Brian said, uh I think I can share this. Can I share Brian? Can I share Teresa's question to you? Yeah, I think it went like this. Do you think Matt's gonna like start reading again? And Brian goes, No. No. No, absolutely. So yeah, it didn't it did not lead to lots more reading.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

So that's there's still time, you know, but also find what you like. You don't have to necessarily branch out very much, you know, whatever. Brian.

unknown 3:30

Yeah.

Bingeable TV Picks And Guilty Pleasures

SPEAKER_03 3:31

So speaking of not reading books, let's get into our first segment that doesn't involve the books. Uh, but are there updates? We talk about whatever we want to talk about during any given episode. Sometimes it's about current events, sometimes it's about something else. And since after this, when this episode airs, the Oscars will have just been finished. So we're not talking about movies. Um, I don't know, March Madness will be going on, but this is not a sports podcast. Go to new heights for that. Um, what we're gonna talk about today is what we've been watching on the TV. What is bingeable? But is it bingeable, as Jessica sent me the other day. Um, so I'm gonna start with uh Jessica because you haven't, you know, gotten to say much yet. Jessica, what are you binging these days?

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Uh well, there's a couple of fun ones and a and a kind of way out there one. So uh we are absolutely madly in love with shrinking. So we are loving shrinking and devouring it the second it comes out. Also the pit.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Um you and everyone else except me, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Well, I love a good medical drama. I was on the ER train a million years ago, and the work that I do, I'm slightly medical adjacent, so I find it very interesting. Um so those are the those are the most recent ones. We are going to be trying uh the new Sherlock. Um Young Sherlock because uh our our dear Donald Finn is in it and we'd like to give it a try. We just haven't gotten there yet.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Donald Finn played Matt Coffin in the Wheel of Time show. Yes. For the decisions two and three.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah. And um, I'm gonna be doing a little Peaky Blinders rewatch this weekend because that movie's coming out. Nice. Uh and that I've totally lost sight of it entirely. And then I happened to casually it flew into my TikTok today, and I was like, oh my gosh, that that is a movie. It did happen and it's coming. So uh that's that. And then the one really kind of weird out there binge that we're doing that I can't get enough of um Mr. Jessica and I have been doing a lot of what's a series that one of us has watched and one of us hasn't, that's kind of vintage. Um, and our current is uh West Wing.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

And I've actually West Wing is vintage.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

For me, like it is vintage, first off, by the definition, because of the age. Um and also I missed it first time around, right? Like I never ever watched a single episode.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

When was it coming out? 2000. 2000 is vintage. Yeah, it hurts a little bit. Okay, so nice, nice. Do you have a favorite of the ones you're currently watching?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Uh I think the pit definitely just because I do love a good medical drama, and I've been in love with Noah Wiley since longer than I care to disclose.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, let's go with Brian now. What are you binging?

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Are you a TV guy? Uh yeah, I watch I watch a decent amount. Um, I don't think of myself as watching a lot of TV, and then I talk to people and they're like, they've never heard of the shows I'm watching. So I'm less and they're like Ted Lasso. They're like, you've never heard of Ted Lasso anyway. So uh so I guess I do watch a lot of TV. That's what I'm saying. Um I'm also watching The Pit. Love it. The new season's fantastic. Um we are watching um Dark, which I had never seen before. I think I started Dark a couple years ago, got like two episodes in and got distracted. I'm not that the show was bad, but I some life life was going on. Um I finally picked it back up, just finished season two, on to season three. Uh super fascinated, super hooked. Really need to know what's happening next. Um uh and so yeah, I'm really stoked about Dark. It's it's really, really good. German German sci-fi. Yeah, yeah, so good. So good. So good. Um, and it makes me want to learn German. Um, you know, they sound so Andrew even when they're being nice. It's good.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Well, of all the languages, it's maybe one of the easier ones to learn because it's uh English is a Germanic language, I think. So a lot of the vocabulary, there's there's some overlap. Like I'm not I'm not fluent in German, but I have I do know some, and it was helpful for the folks.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

I've heard it described that English is like German interpreted by the French and then beat up by the English. Something like that. Um that's beat up by the Welsh or something like that. Anyway, uh that works. Okay, probably butchered that, but that's what I'm doing. So yeah, the pit and uh and and dark or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Yeah, if you don't mind subtitles, do dark. It's like one of Netflix's best, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Um I want to be able to go back and watch Dark for the first time again. No, it's so good. I mean, I should just go back. Actually, it's probably just as good as the second watch. Oh, that was so it's so good. One of the ones that I hadn't watched that I just binged through. Actually, I'm on the last episode of what I think is the last season. No spoilers here. Um, Peaky Blinders is maybe one of my favorite television shows ever now. Like the and my son was he was so I don't know if you if you guys remember this. I was doing like a I don't know if it was the 12-hour livestream of about Landfear or something like that. Anyways, I was getting clips of Natasha O'Keefe from things. I can't remember what it was for. I forgot she was in it that I would get Natasha O'Keefe clips. Um I was getting clips, and and Taylor was like, Where did you get these clips from? I was like, Oh, I just I just was watching random Peaky Blinder episodes because I heard she was in Peaky Blinders, and I was like, he's like, You are ruining Peaky Blinders, and I was like, No, I don't remember anything that's happening, and it's so funny. Like, he's like, You have to watch it, it's a great show. And I I don't know, I just I don't know why I didn't think that it's not that I didn't think that, I just didn't appeal to me. And I I watched episode one of season one, and now I'm like, I think it's only been like two weeks, and I'm at season six, episode six at this point, and uh one of my favorite shows.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

So that's I would tailor though, like my heart is horrified at the idea of the spoiler of it all, right? Like just grabbing images and and seeing things, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

It didn't ruin anything. What did you you're not doing? I've never seen I've never seen you should give it a try.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I probably should.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

It's it it surprisingly, it's it was surprisingly how good it was. Like, I was like, this has been just sitting here. It's like when I watched Dark, I was like, this has just been here.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I know it's been here the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So good. So yeah, I would have to say Peaky Blinders. Oh, I but I did start Young Sherlock, we're already like six episodes in. My kids like that one, and Donald Finn is fantastic in it. I didn't know who he was playing, so that was a surprise for me. And I was like, Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

That's fun. So whenever I was doing, I was like reporting on you know what the Wheel of Time actors were doing next. And when I checked IMDb, it said that he was gonna play Morty Artie in one episode, and I was like, weird. I guess maybe they'll introduce him in episode eight as like a cliffhanger, and then obviously they started promoting the show recently and it came out. No, he's in all eight, like, and he's a main character. You know, I was just like, oh wow, just one episode, that's a bummer. IMDB is just false in some.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

So he it's it's a fun, it's fun, it's just a fun show. Um, and he he does fantastic. So yeah, I I would say dark, Peaky Blinders, young Sherlock, all fun things to pick up.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Okay, well, now that everyone's given their like really cerebral, serious uh recommendations. Let me jump in with a couple of your trash recommendations. Um bring in.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Well, I have a trash recommendation first. Have you seen The Secret Lives of Mormon Watt?

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Shut up, Brian. That's what I'm gonna say. Oh my gosh. It's about to start. No, it just released. It just came like season four just came out. I haven't seen any of it yet, but you better believe that's what I'm bidging immediately because the moment that show came out, because I'm like on TikTok, and there was this big controversy on TikTok about these Mormons, and they're all like whatever. Um, these are the same people that were controversial on TikTok, some of them, obviously. A lot of them would contest that they were a part of it, but the drama is the tea is piping hot, the drama's insane. One of them, two of them went on dancing with the stars, one of them is gonna be the bachelorette. Like, it's wild. It's wild times in the life in the in the realm of secret lives of Mormon wives. And I guess, oh my gosh, innkeeper, have you ever seen any of any of the Mormon wives in Utah? Don't you live in Utah?

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Why do you think I'm in Salt Lake City right now?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Shut up!

unknown 12:09

What?

SPEAKER_03 12:09

You're you're looking for them? Have you gone to Swig yet?

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Bright. We're about to binge it. That's what's about to happen. So um, yeah, we're binge in season four. You guys, uh all of you?

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Oh, I wish I wow, and I didn't get the invite. No, it's fine. It's fine, whatever. I'm not mad. Um, I'm also just now finishing the newest Love is Blind season, which is more trash. Um, the reunion aired last night, but I was at Trivia, which I do about every week, and so I'm gonna have to catch up. I'm avoiding spoilers because I don't know if the couples that got married are still married. So I want to I wanna be excited. As far as more serious television goes, I just finished The Beast in Me, which has Claire Danes and the guy from the Americans. And that is like Mr. Critter and I are all about the like who done it crime, cerebral, like murder-y dramas.

SPEAKER_05 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Whatever. And uh that one really it just it really does it. It's it's one of those. Um, and so it's fun. The guy from the Americans, I wish I could think of his name. I can't. He was fabulous in it. Um, acting was, I mean, Claire Danes is amazing. It was, it was really fun. It was a good one. Um, so I do watch I do watch more quality television than Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, but now's a really exciting time in reality television. So check out Hulu if you want to turn your brain off.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Okay, you gotta have a little trash TV. You gotta have a little trash TV.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

I live a very serious life, not really, but I have a serious job, right? And so I need to turn that brain off. I need to turn it off every now and then. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Absolutely, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Speaking of turning our brain off, Jessica, shall we talk about the book?

Starting Carl's Doomsday Scenario

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Excellent segue. Critter is the queen of segues. Uh so welcome guys. We are here to talk about Dungeon Crawler Carl, book two, um, Carl's Doomsday Scenario, the first half, chapters one through 14. And so, very gently, uh, because we already both each touched on a little bit, I like to ask our guests to just show your credentials at the door a little bit. So I think we kind of know that in Keeper Hatch, you just discovered this series pretty recently and devoured it pretty fast.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

What was your main method? Did you go audio book? Are you a physical reader? I know you just said you own them all, but which way did you which way did you take your dungeon crawler carl?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

So at first it was just like the physical book, right? It was sit on the couch and like just I like that. It's like it just felt like I needed to get away. But uh then at night though, like I'm trying to read it like you know, this 2 a.m. and like a big book with lights on. I couldn't do that. So I it was like, oh, I gotta get it on Kindle.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

In this economy, who does that?

SPEAKER_01 14:57

And then like I was, and I was like, Well, I can't be. I I was trying to like like read it, but there was other things going on. So I was like, I so yeah, it was like really a it was like a crazy kind of mix, it just depended on where I was in the day. I tend to be the kind of person who like if I'm reading a book I love, I'm taking like listen. You know, I'm like in the car, now I'm listening to it. So we get in the car and I don't want to be like trying to read it. Now I have it in my ear, and my wife's like, What what are you listening to? And I'm like, Oh, you know, she's like, Oh, the book. Yeah, that's right. Um so it's like on our way places, like listening, and then uh, you know, we get back home at night. So it's at night Kindle on the road listening on the audiobook, and then of course, like during the day, like if I could just grab the book and and uh reading it.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Nice. So mixed media, strong, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Um, I will say whatever things get to my blood like veins quickest, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yes, like however I can ingest. I respect it. Um, I can say that we also did the car ride listen along, but um, husband was a good sport because he was so excited I was finally reading it that he was like, just play it, just play it over the car speakers. I don't care where you are, just play it. So, yeah, anytime we were in the car, we were listening to Dungeon Crawler car along.

SPEAKER_05 16:10

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Um, so Brian, how long have you known of the series? How were you introduced to it?

SPEAKER_04 16:17

Um, I read it about uh a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Um, I just you know, I'm I'm not a big fan of late RPG as a genre, and uh, but people have just kept saying how great it was. So I picked up the first book expecting to hate it, loved it, obviously, went to the second book, the third book, fourth book, all the way through. I think I read the whole uh everything that was available. I went through six in uh probably you know two or three weeks, and then I had to wait three or four months for book seven to come out. So um, so I actually had to do the waiting, do the longing for uh for book seven. I read on Kindle um like almost exclusively. Um I don't do audiobooks. Uh although I did get a little bit of the audiobook experience at WarCon when uh Mr. Jessica told me to the store and it was on his uh speaker, card speaker.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Uh we just got about your excursion.

SPEAKER_04 17:09

You're a little in the little excursion. Um and uh uh yeah, I've been reading for a long time, and I I sort of started telling everybody I knew. This is great, you should read it. Um I'm I'm always a little um lit RPG as a genre is is it's very popular, but it's also it's very polarizing. You either love it or hate it. And um, I was very anxious to like recommend it to people because um I thought most of us would not like it. And then to my very big surprise, everybody loves it. And I was like, maybe I just have weird taste and nobody's gonna like it. And so everybody loves it. So I'm I'm thrilled to you know just be talking about it with some people. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Somebody told me that Matt Dinnaman was at JordanCon like two or three years ago, and I feel like such a failure for not like getting the books and getting them signed. Oh, that drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

He was at Dragon Steel. He was at Wacom. He was yeah, wait, what he was at Wacon? Well, he wasn't at Wacon, he was at the Columbus. Yeah, Dragon Steel Nexus. He was at the book, he was at the book festival that was copying Columbus the same.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Well, that's nice. Yeah, Dragon Steel Nexus and he's been Nexus.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah, and so it was Will White. Will White and Matt Dinnerman were both there.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Well, the crazy thing is Brian and uh and a couple of other uh friends were that were there, like went into the Matt Dinnman panel, and I was like, oh, this is gonna cover like I want to read these books eventually. I don't want to ruin anything. But then I was like, am I really going to like remember? And the book they had the guy ouch.

unknown 18:49

Brian's not gonna let it go.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

No, he no, no, that's what this friendship is about. Um so uh he uh you know, like audio book-wise, the like the guy that does the audio, like the whoever does the audio, he was there. And and like Matt Dinneman had him like do act out or like read a scene from the from the next book. And so I was like, is this this feels like it's spoilery, but I love I love listening to it. I just kept on telling myself, like actively forget, like, don't remember these names, don't remember anything, just enjoy the moment.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Is and Matt, I'm so glad you mentioned that because that did hit mutual discord, and I didn't listen to it at the time because I wanted to listen to it after having finished the book. So I'm so glad you brought that up. I'm gonna go back and listen to that.

How LitRPG Hooks New Readers

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Oh, it's it's it's so good. Um, yeah, I and yeah, I I I want to now go to his event. Like now it's like one of these like wheel of time things again. It's like I'm waiting for a book and I can't wait to it's kind of fun. It's fun.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

Matt kept looking at me and going, This is really funny. Welcome to Welcome to the Death forever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

So I will say we touched on it um when we were talking about book one about lit RPG and how it's a different genre for both of us. Uh, we actually, you know, kind of forensically worked out that critter has read lit RPG technically before because she's got Ready Player One under her belt, but I've got like really nothing to compare it to. Um and I was, you know, as a first timer, I was really surprised how much I liked it. I think that a lot of the humor, uh, my age worked in my favor because I get a lot of the humor that was made. So there's a lot of gamer references that probably go right over my head, but there's definitely a niche of humor in there that I'm clearly the demographic.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah. I think everybody's the demographic. I don't know. Everybody's a demographic.

unknown 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Oh man, there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Well, there's like a TD Switch Ninja Turtle reference right in the beginning. And there's a couple things that I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

There's something I can't wait to talk about that, like it just like I was like, no, he gets me. You know, like it was like he he had the same exact experience, or he just, you know, or like wrote about imagining a somebody having the same exact experience. And I was like, that was my experience. Anyways, uh, so we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

I was like, does that happen in this half, or do I need to DM you later?

SPEAKER_01 21:10

No, no, no. It happens, it happens in this half. Like, I was I was so excited when I went back and reread it because I was like, oh, that's right. I loved that moment.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Amazing solify.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Oh, can I I'm actually like talking about it again, might as well roll right now. Like it's the it's the stack of Louis Lemoire books. Like there was this moment where he's like and he's talking about the Sacket series from Louis Lemour, and he got this, and they're like, What's that?

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Um I've never heard of Louis Lemour. I didn't know it was real. Oh, I've got to be.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, Louis Lemoire. Yeah, that's and and and like they're just these like 150 to 200 page books, and you can just like read them. Like, I as a kid I visited my grandparents when I was 14, and and I was like, What do you want to do? And I was like, go to the library, because I was with them for like a week, and we went to the library and I got like nine books, and they're just like that's weird. And like most of them were like uh Louis Lemore books, and I just like I just sat there and read and read and read and and the Sackett series is like that he mentions is like one of my favorites. So, like that's yeah, that the way like what he got was I was like, I know and because like I was like, that's a great, that's a great gift to get.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

That's so cool. I had no idea that was real. That makes it so much cooler. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

It was like next time you go to the bookstore, look for Louis Lavore, there's like 300 of the books. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:27

It's so prolific.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

My grandfather had stacks of them as well, and I read them all too.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

So it was a cool it was one of the references where you're just like, okay, that won me over.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Because it is it is fairly random, but it's so awesome that it that it that you connected with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

The way that does because like the humor hits with me, and the way I'm like all these gaming references hit with me, and Matt's over here, like the book series that you know what it's. I feel is this like the sisterhood of the traveling lit RPG book? Like the reason everybody loves it is because everybody's got something. Something for everybody. Something for others.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

It was like the way that they described it. I thought he described it like it was wrapped up in plastic, kind of like it had been sold at like just like kind of like you know, you get the you know, you order from Amazon and somebody you get a bunch of books from somebody, you know, and they're just wrapped up in plastic. That's kind of like if you go look up Louis Lemour books, people are selling these like groups of wrapped up in plastic. They're just like, I found these on like my dad's shelf, and yeah, there's so many of them. Um, so yeah, um, 100%. Like that was just like, yeah, it wasn't like a humorous moment, it was just like a connecting moment. I have a lot of those, I think, during the sh during the reading. I was just like, like I feel some of the things that uh Carl feels, you know, like like he just it's just uh I think I had never read uh lit RPG, like and I was just like, oh, this is this is my jam.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

If if they're all this good, um, I don't know that that's the case, but um the normal most lit RPG books are uh 10 times heavier on the game elements, and 10 times less on everything else.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

So it's like the if you really love the video game elements, you don't care that much about plot or like this heartwarming Louis Lamore things, then no, I like it all.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

I want I want it in the package. You want it all. No, I want it all. Like the reason it's obviously I love the humor. I love Carl and Donut, the fact that a cat's a main character. Like, oh, there's a lot of it that speech to me, but like Jessica and I are different in the way that like some of the video game and like gaming references will ping with me. And I'm like, oh my god, I've played a I've played a I've played against this boss, basically, is like how sometimes what happens to me.

Class Selection And Donut's New Role

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of uh cats, we talked about chapter one where they choose their classes and yeah, so that's where I've got us started.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Um, I was gonna ask Critter to go first because she was segue is for what it's worth. Yeah, Critter was really excited about class selection and stuff. So great segue, Ryan. Uh Critter. Yes, kick us off. How did you feel about class and race selection and how that went?

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Okay, so I knew she was gonna pick Kat. So that was no surprise, and I thought it was hilarious. But they got me on the like, oh, Carl's trying to pressure her to take the uh the street vendor or whatever. Um and and actually they were like under the table trying to pick something up. Like that, whenever they did the bait and switch, and they were like, actually, we're we didn't want to piss Mordecai off, but the plan all along was to get something with the manager thing. That was that was really good the way they played that, and I thought it was interesting. I think it's funny that she's a former child star, like the name of them is funny. Um and also the what was it, the artist alley entrepreneur, yeah. The way they describe it, like selling copyright infringement materials in the back of a convention center. I was like, oh, I have seen those people in real life.

unknown 25:36

Like, it's so real.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Um, so, anyways, yeah, I thought it was I thought donuts was really fun. They I love being tricked by an author, as long as it's like obviously in um like good natured fun, and that one was, I thought. Um, I'm just really curious now what's gonna happen with um the fact that he's donuts manager. Like, when are Carl and Donuts interests not going to align? Because obviously, like Mordecai and Carl have like some kind of like simpatico thing. Like they get along, they they like to plan things together or whatever, but like I assume that um Mordecai has to be loyal to Donut, just you know, as an attorney client privilege type of thing where he's gotta prioritize her. So I'm sure it well, I'm not sure it doesn't happen in this book, but I imagine it's gonna happen where it's gonna play out in a weird way.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

I don't know why I didn't think about this before, Critter. I you're really going through it like at pace, right? Like you're kind of like and you're having that kind of like pod, like the thing we the wheel of time and all the kind of the groups that were doing it, like it you just analyzed something that like when I read the books, and I said this always to other podcasters that were like going slowly, like it wasn't until I read if this makes sense. I'm reading it slower in the reread. I'm actually like like the first time through, I was just like, fly, fly, fly, you know, not don't pay attention to too much, just like just float across the top of the water. And so, yeah, I'm like, I'm like you're already analyzing something. I was like, oh, interesting, that's true. They did say like they said it that way, and I'm starting to kind of dig into that's what I was trying to do in my reread. I was like, what did I miss? Right. I'm asking myself, like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

One of the things I love about Critter is a lot of times she's on her second listen through by the time we get to record. So she will have picked up more.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

My first listen through is a blaze of glory. Like, I it's just like uh, how fast can I listen to this? I want to see what happens, and then I I read another book and then I come back because I want to be fresh, and so then I'll read it. Usually it'll faster, but because I've already read it, I can like I start thinking about what's going on and what might be going on. So whatever. It was interesting to me. I I remember in my predictions I said that I want to say I said that Carl's either going to be human or something that looks like a human because I've seen the covers of the books. Like I was spoiled on that. Um so the fact that he ended up being what's it called? Uh primal was interesting. And the description of the primals I thought was cool. Like, you know, the original species of whatever that's spread throughout the galaxy. That was that's neat. I'm really curious to see what ends up happening with him there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

I like um I I was a huge fan of Donut, and obviously all of that was pure entertainment value and and hit the mark in terms of being hilarious, and also very impressed with how they kind of did that bait and switch with Mordecai as far as they you know got that inside tip from Odette and they used it. Um also the point and counterpoint, right, of the class and race selection for Donut versus Carl. Like Carl is the straight man essentially to Donut in that he's you know, compensated art anarchist. And I'm like, that's a serious, that's a serious title for a serious fella kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

First of all, that's an awesome title. Compensated anarchist primal.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

What would be so much more popular if those were the classes?

SPEAKER_02 29:03

You know what? Not for nothing, Brian. I was like, I I would play that DD character. I would play the hell out of that DD character.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Um, so yeah, I I definitely enjoyed it. It was really um, again, because I don't do a lot of gaming, and even though I DD now, I'm still pretty new to the to the gaming and RPG world. Um a lot of it was kind of flying past my head like a lot of gamer references. I was just like, wow, this is wild. And the the detail to which he fleshed it out to to to give you the feeling, it gave me at least the feeling of somebody spun a wheel and and there were choices on all of those pings on the wheel, and this is what they got. Um, it didn't feel like they were playing one of them deep props. It felt like it felt like there really were a hundred other choices that could have come up. Um, and so you know, appreciated that as a as a partaker of the story.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, yeah, he does a good job, uh for sure. Like that I think that's what caught me is just like his world, the the world is so immersive and it feels again, like I like that's what we always talk about wheel of time, right? It feels like like like it's there. Um, and so this that hit immediately, and I just every time I'm just like, oh my gosh, how creative the he must have so much fun just coming up with these descriptions and everything, like yeah, because you can just say like almost the most absurd things, and you're just like, yeah, that totally fits, you know. Um and uh so yeah, every time I just turn a page uh or like there's that moment they get something, you're like, Oh, describe it, please. I have to don't get rid of that, right? I need that. Um so yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

He said that at uh Nexus at the panel, and he said uh uh he people tell him to do the craziest things, and it's he's like, nothing's too crazy. I can I can make anything work, and I believe it. Like I mean, just fill off the wall. And he made it work.

Elites Quests And Bigger Universe

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yeah, yeah. Um, so Brian, I'll kick off with you. A new concept of um NPC, if you will, was introduced in book two, which is the elites. So again, a whole new world for me. Uh what's your take on the elites and elites as a part of NPC and as a story device?

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Right. Um well the elites introduced also introduced the concept of quests uh to the world. Um, and quests are kind of essential to any RTG that you have. And so uh what uh you know Gentleman is doing here is kind of saying, okay, there's going to be special characters that actually have motivation and reason and personalities that are not just a lemur with a knife, right? Like they're not just violent and want to kill you, they have other other motivations and other other desires. And so um it is uh, I think in Serena Signet's characters we're talking about, uh well, one of one of the elites that we're talking about, um uh she she represents a uh very common trope in RPGs, which is I'm gonna kick off a quest and you can join me or not, except in this case, because AI is controlling the game, he doesn't really have a choice. He's gotta be gotta be in the middle of it. Um but I think it's great. I think it's brilliant. And and then you know, for for somebody uh like you who is maybe not as immersed in RPG video game lore, um it's a really great introduction to this concept that not every creature in the dungeon is going to be a mindless monster that's just gonna come after you with sharp teeth and claws and uh and something like that. Like these are gonna be some really interesting, fleshed-out characters. Um, and it makes it believable, like as absurd as they might be when you stop and think about it, it makes it believable because they they they're like real people or they feel like real people. And Mordecai calls out like they are real people, like the they're pre they're like kind of pre-programmed or biologically programmed with the memories of of who they are. Um, so they're not actors, they're just like real. Anyway, this really neat concept. I think um it's it's a good introduction to the second book for these are some more mechanics you can look out for, as we keep going.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I I Brian was so cerebral in that.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Like yeah, that's why I gave it to him because I'm like, this one's referring.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Yeah, you bring it down to the secret lives and monster level in the case.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Let me let me bring it down, let me bring this whole conversation down to like really basic connections here. My brain obviously compares everything to the wheel of time, like that's just what it does. So like the elites struck me as kind of very Taviran-esque. Um, you know, like because when I looked at, I had like I was like not directly controlled by the AI and the writers, they are constantly being nudged and manipulated, you know, and I was like, but they're constantly being nudged and manipulated. So like there's like that kind of feel like they have more impact, but they have they, you know, the book in the same chapter says they have kind of plot armor, you know. So there's that kind of mix of the type of character, which means to me, they go, Oh, this character can be very impactful, you know. They can they can they can spin, they can weave some, you know, some web together of what he's planning on here. So and and the other thing that struck me, other than that, was um scope is really hitting me this time. So like I I believe I believe they said there was thousands of elites, something like that. I thought that's what they said. Yeah, so then and then they were like talking about different shows, you know, like, oh, there's a show for elite, and they weren't they didn't necessarily say one-to-one ratio, but it made my brain go like, how many shows?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Like, I didn't think about that before I started through, but I was like how many shows are going on and they're coming back for multiple seasons.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Well, they have like more than a trillion viewers, so like, yeah, everybody's got different tastes, you know, revenge of the daughters, only one.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

But that's what that's what that thing you just brought up here. That hit me too. Was uh so I've like moderated forums for a long time, and uh uh you know, you think about like a channel, you know this well, like how many comments you get on a video, and so it was like a comment from like Zev, like earlier was like, a couple people are grumbling, and like it was the first time when I went back and read it, I was like trying to like scale it up. What would a couple people be for a thousand-person channel to a couple be for 300 trillion views? Yeah, and now I'm like my brain was going into like the social media manager, like I was like looking at like how many is a couple? Is that like a million people are grumbling? But that doesn't matter because it has a trillion, it has 300 trillion views.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Those are no longer real numbers at that point.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Like oh, I know, it's just it's it's own wild concept. Like it finally like broke my brain reading through this time.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Crater, how did you feel about the elites? Did you have any did anything stand out about our introduction to Zarina?

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Um, okay, yes. First of all, they said the word dragon. I don't know if you noticed, but there is a word dragon. Dragon. And you know, they didn't specify what kind of sea dragon, whether it's a dragon, dragon, like in this book here, or if it's an actual sea dragon, which is like a kind of a fish. Either way, the word dragon is in this book, so there are dragons. Nice.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

In the podcast, we're done.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

We bit we found one. Um, but but no, I think my biggest takeaway so far, other than the fact that she sounded like such a badass. Like they kept saying she was horrible to look upon because of all her tattoos, but the way I was picturing her was some like tall, lanky elven creature with amazing swarming tattoos all over her, like almost like avatar, like navi, avatar-esque looks. Like, that's not horrifying. She sounds amazing. I don't so that was my instinct as to how she looked. My just overall takeaway of the quest introduction and the introduction of the elites is that book two felt very different from book one. It book one was the nice introduction. Book two is like, we're gonna take this world that you've become familiar with in the last two floors, and we're gonna blow it up. There's gonna be serials, there's gonna be bot like bigger bosses, there's gonna be different types of characters, there's gonna be elites, there's gonna be quests. Some of the quests are gonna be wild, like uh, you know, some of these things are gonna evoke emotion in um Carl that we haven't gotten before. We're gonna get more of Carl's backstory. It went from this fun romp in a dungeon to like real lives, real drama. Like it was, I don't know, it felt it was a completely new experience for me. It just, it, it okay, so to put it into perspective, by the second half of book one, I was like, okay, this is feeling like routine. Like they know what they're doing. It's kind of like a they're they're used to it. It feels like they're almost completely immune from they've got too much plot armor, right? So they're just going through the motions. They're just going through the motions. Once we started this book, it didn't feel like that anymore because it was like so much different. So I I really appreciate Dinnerman's ability to change things up so significantly, so quickly. Uh, because I, if it would have been the same thing over and over again that happened in book one, I loved book one, but eventually that's gonna get tired. Now we're not at risk of that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Because it was already in an apocalypse, since we're already in an apocalypse, it was a unique way for me at least to have them raise the stakes, right? Like so uh love, love the world-building piece of it, but it also uh changed the lens for me again as somebody who is admittedly kind of a more passive reader, a reminder that there's a whole world universe outside of this, and it interacts with this. And so in-game versus out-of-game interactions and and the implications of that uh definitely was a stake raiser in book two, uh, which was a great way to change it up from book one, to your point.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Yeah, there's also a moment uh where Carl thinks about like there's 18 floors, and yeah, it's already this crazy. Yeah. What do you how does it get how does it get bigger than this? And um that that's a fun moment where he just kind of like thinks about the future and makes you think about the future and go, oh no.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Anytime he does that yardstick thing where he's like, this bad guy, this baddie comes, you know, that you see it routinely on floor seven or whatever it is, and he's like, How are we gonna get how are we gonna power scale to that? What does that even mean?

Carl's Plans Inside And Outside Game

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah. Well, this is one of the ones where you started seeing, well, and I can't uh maybe I can't remember the book one, maybe we saw a lot of this, but uh this reminded me at least, which is like all of a sudden they're getting these things and they're getting like different like skills that they can't choose, and it's some random skill, and you're like, how's that skill going to be used? And it's like there's like compounding things where you're like, oh, okay, they're oh, interesting. Like the the mind behind kind of tracking all this stuff and you and how it applies to the that's where it really sells me. It's just like it never felt like it has that kind of like, yeah, they're they're they're dungeon crawling, right? They're they're uh they're going through, but I'm always curious, like, how is this gonna come to play?

SPEAKER_03 40:25

You know, that whole like gun on the mantle kind of thing, you know, like well they're you've got to be talking about like, for example, the hot the the they got two random hobbies in their human box or whatever. And like I did not look them up because you know, in my brain, you know, you could call it.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Okay, but do you have uh do you have a guess? Like this is the time to make your guess if you'd like to.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Oh, okay. One of them was one of them was called something that I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

The one that don't donut got is called scudolophilly.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Okay, no, I I had a guess for Carl's. What was Carl's? Just stare. Sesta punta. Okay, so I was I was like, is this like Latin? Because Sesta to me sounds like siesta. So I was like, because it has something to do with uh sleeping, and punta is like like a point, or I don't know. So like, can he sleep on demand? I don't know. That's not really a hobby. I don't know. It's like dumb, but um, that was my best guess. I have no guess for donuts, like absolutely none.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I don't we shouldn't theorize with the innkeeper here because we are not as good.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Oh no, I wanted to be wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

So you're saying my theorized. No, I said we. I said the royal we. Um I think that's a heck of a guess. Do you want to take a shot at what you think donuts might end up being?

SPEAKER_03 41:47

What's the what is it again?

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Scutalophilly.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

I wish I could see how it's spelled, but I did the audiobook.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Um I can get it. I can get it for you.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Um, oh, it's S C U C U T E L L I P H I L Y. Scutilophilly. Oh, wow, that's a good well well pronounced there.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Okay. Uh there might be reasons. Like I might have fallen down that rabbit hole on my first read.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Okay, just based on how it sounds, I'm gonna say sh skipping. Skipping. Okay. Rhythmic skipping. Rhythmic skipping. Fabulous. Don't quote me. Actually, please do once it gets revealed. I don't I wanna I want to know how wrong I am.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

We're gonna need a meme, uh, a gif of some kind of rhythmic skipping. Yes, insert meme here. Um that's awesome. I honestly I forgot about the skill boxes, and now I'm glad we have that on record. Um so while we were wrapping up thoughts on the vengeance of the daughter storyline, one of the things that I had written down is once again, we see Carl kind of fighting a war on a couple of fronts at the same time. And again, doing it well, by my reckoning, like really kind of kick and butt. He is doing the grind where he is fighting on the dungeon level, but then he's also got this esoteric kind of outside game happening with Zev against um the viewers at large. And what does that look like? So again, I always find one of the things that I like about Carl already at this point in the series is that he never quite he always has a solution, like he comes up to be problem solved, and it's never quite what they think it's gonna be. And that's always fun for me. Um so I guess my question is for the three of you which type of grind do you like more from Carl? Do you like it more when you are reading those machination plot conversations or when he's doing his dungeon crawler grind advice? We can go to Matt first.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Um I think that's that's tough. I'm trying to stay present in the where we're at. Where we are right now. Um so I I think. I think that opened it up for me at this point in the series. I think that's where I was, which was like, oh, like it's not just the grinding, right? Like that's like there's some fun to that. But to me, it's like, how does this all I mean, it's the theory side, right? It's like, okay, what's the machination? What is Carl thinking behind what is he planning? What's not being revealed to us right now? What am I hearing? So when Carl is kind of in that thought, you know, mode of these moments of like how he's gonna handle this, that's where I'm kind of digging in from or that's where I'm slowing down a little bit because I'm trying to kind of like, I want to preemptively maybe try to guess where the thing's gonna go. And so, yeah, that's that's definitely one of the fun parts, is just to me how how Carl and Donut, you know, kind of figure these things out. Uh, but definitely it's kind of like Carl's machinations is is where I like to sit. They're they're certainly fun, as you can tell.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Brian, do you have a preference one way or the other?

SPEAKER_04 45:15

Um yeah, I can't I mostly agree with Matt. The um the introduction of kind of the Zab dynamic um really opens up the possibilities. Like if if all of the possibilities in the story are really just like what skills does Carl have? What attributes did he gain? What did he get from his loot boxes? Um, how is he gonna fight uh a bear on roller skates? Like that is um that is a uh that's an interesting story. But then when you add, oh, like you mean he's talking to the people who pull the strings behind the scenes? Like that is uh a layer of depth and and complexity that again makes it feel really immersive and real. Um he's not he's not just in the video game, he's also playing the video game, right? Like he's he's creating the video game. He's the the he's holding the controller and he's running through the labyrinth at the same time. Like that's that that's kind of what we get here. He he kind of Denniman kind of made the world feel bigger without actually going anywhere else. And it's a really neat really neat mechanic.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

And it's really different skill sets, like so. That's you know, he's not just a grunt, and and there are jokes to be made from book one about his intelligence. He's he's not a slouch, but they're those are very different fronts that he's fighting on and very different skill sets that he's using.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

It's not just what's on his character sheet, right? Right, 100%. Like he's bringing he's bringing real world experience and thoughts to the table and creativity that goes beyond like the best DD games are people who like role play beyond what's on their character sheet, right? And they they they make it because that's where the fun is good and interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Critter, how do you feel about it? Do you have a preference?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

I think my favorite thing is when Carl's like heart emerges in the context of what he's doing. So, for example, whenever he was leaving um Donut behind because he had to, and he told Mongo, like, I need you to protect Donut. This is the most important thing you ever have to do. Literally, like, I'm over here, like, you know, so there's like that. Um, there's the moment when like the fight with Heather the Bear, where he went to use the scratcher ticket, and I was like, What are you doing, Carl? Like, you could heal this bear right now. That's not worth the risk. And then he did heal the bear, and I'm over here like, was that you like knowing that you were going to be releasing this bear? You know, all of it's just like, I feel like he puts his heart into a lot of things. And part of the reason that he came up with the ultimate solution between um the elites, right, who were in love, was that he like understood not only the nature of television shows, but like he picked up on the fact that they were in love and came up with a way for them to reunite instead of trying to just suicide bomb the circus tent. Um, I think one of his biggest strengths is his empathy, but I will say that at times, like you, I'm sure you've heard people, especially in series and book series and stuff that involve um incredibly competent women, you get the like Mary Sue argument where it's like, is this person too good? And sometimes I think Carl is perfect. I'm not mad. I love reading about how perfect he is, but the the Mary Sue complainers, like if they do that kind of a thing, they should complain about Carl because he I haven't found a flaw, really, other than maybe his relationship with his ex-girlfriend. Um, but other than other than that, like he's been pretty hyper competent this entire time. And I trust me, I love to see him flex his like Sherlock Holmes um muscles. And on my second reread, I actually caught like his plan a little earlier. For example, whenever they were storming the tent, he talked about wanting to stay next to the elite because of her plot armor. And I was like, oh, okay, so he he he understands what's happening here.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

So it's like metagaming, but I'm not even about it.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Yeah, no, because really, yeah, it's the apocalypse, man.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Just survive.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

So no, I just I really appreciate his problem solving skills and Sherlock Holmes at all. But his his best, his best thing is his empathy for sure.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

See, I I read another little RPG that kind of wants to be dungeon crawler, Carl. And uh the main character is like, I've never played a video game in my life, and then as he's like going through the world, he's doing video game things, and I'm like, but you said you don't yeah, so I appreciate that Carl is is like, oh, I've seen this on TV, or I played this game before. Yeah, uh I'm gonna stand next to the elite because she has plot armor and I know what plot armor is. And I appreciate that, even though that is a little bit you know, Mary Sue Margie's still, but it's also um uh uh it makes sense because he's not pretending that he doesn't know things. True, yeah. And so yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

I what's uh this is somewhat somewhat related, like this this just going back and reading this reminded me, like I got into Dungeon Dragons on the advanced Dungeon Dragons Commodore 64 side of things, which is like a game called Pool of Radiance. Um I never did like the like never played with my friends growing up with like the just the manual thing, right? It was always it was always in a computer gaming sense that I got into this. And I remember like having these moments where it's like, okay, I know if I take a right and go through that door, there's gonna be bad people. I don't know what's gonna happen. So I'm gonna go get like I'm gonna go over here, fight this, get these attributes because and I'm gonna and then I'm gonna open that door and I'm gonna meet something that I don't know, and I don't know if I can beat it, right? And it's like, well, this is my strategy. And so I just love the feel of that where he does like to your point, critter, like there it does seem like somehow he's like able to manage this, but it's interesting, he's able to kind of like give you that game feel, right? Because like there's a lot of that present thinking about the thing that's happening while you're guiding your party through the thing that's happening and you're strategizing while you do that. So I I get I think I get lost in that and I forget that like, well, he did that really well because I'm just like I'm so like embedded in the in the feeling of oh my gosh, like we're in the dungeon, but he's but he is like to Brian's point, like he's in the game, but he's playing the game at the same time. And so he does such a good job of putting me there. But I do sometimes like forget that of like, hey, wait a second, we should have more flaws, sir.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

Yeah, or you you make mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah, right, like mistake more. Yeah, but it's so fun to like uh you know see how it see how it goes, right? Um he definitely has the Timiran thing.

SPEAKER_04 51:53

He definitely does. I mean, his he's so perfect that he's got such well-turned calves that they won't let him have pants.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Yep, it's true.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Come on, Deniman.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Everything is two degrees from Wheel of Time at most.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Yeah, at most. At most.

The Playbook Strategy For Combat

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Um The other thing about this is I I don't think we saw it in book one, but you guys can call me on it if I'm wrong, is they start working on their playbook, which I just found to be brilliant. Uh so it's another thing. So we're sitting here having this conversation about how he's playing the game, but then at a higher level, he's running the game or trying to at least influence it. And I'm over here, I feel like I'm playing, he's playing 3D chess, and I'm over here playing checkers. Uh, because those are solutions that aren't even occurring to me. So I am wowed by the choices he's making. And just under that decision-making tier is the implementation of a playbook, which is such simple brilliance. But I was just like, of course, why wouldn't you? Because you're all gonna have different skills and being able to just call it out. Um anybody on the group know of another book or game context in which somebody has used that device? Because I just thought it was kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Um there are a couple video games that have that sort of mechanic um where you can uh kind of create these like combinations of like a work almost like a workflow of character actions, and then you choose them uh during combat so that people people do things. Um, but I think he actually probably got inspiration from MMORPGs like World of Warcraft or Guild Wars, where you actually do have like six, eight people, you know, the whole Lee World Jenkins thing um was uh was they were supposed to have a plan and this dude just charged in. Uh that's that that's uh very much a um uh a strategy that's used by guilds in things like World of Warcraft when they go on raids and things like that. They say, okay, let's play this by year, you do this, you do that, and then if something happens, I'll yell out this and then everybody changes. Um I was gonna say, like in League of Legends.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Yeah, yeah, I can't give it in a book either. I was gonna say in League of Legends, there's like, you know, there's like five characters on a team, lane lane together, and then it's okay, you throw down a trap, then I'll throw down my AoE effect, and then somebody else will stun so he can't get out of the trap, and then somebody else will do another AoE effect, and then you'll throw your ults and do the damage. And so, you know, things like if you keep up with the game, which I don't anymore, you can just like literally kill somebody in two seconds because you're all hiding buttons at the exact right time, which is a lot how this is.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Because I can tell you from like the little itty bitty RPG experience I have. I don't have the patience for that. Critter and I have been in sessions together where it's like we haven't done anything and we've been talking for a really long time. Somebody's gonna shoot something.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Like I said, I'm gonna start a timer. In a minute, we're gonna start fighting. Like, I cannot handle the prep.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Imagine how much better those kids in the wheel of time would have been if they had like instant ability to You're gonna start bringing up they should have had a conference. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, imagine like they had like an AI that's communicating, and then they're able to like instant communicate, you know, behind the scenes while they're at if they had playbooks, they would have been better with the girls.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Even if they just had chat, right? Like all they needed was Discord.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

No, but so what's so interesting is I'm wrong. I maybe I'm making this too real, but like when I think about Carl and this, like it's like constant, like they're they're living the game 24-7, but like we're not getting every moment, right? They're like, oh, I gotta, we're in this room for X amount of time, and we're getting when they leave, or something significant happens in that room. So like I just think of like survival mode, Carl, in this moment, and he has like 24 hours in a day, but they aren't necessarily all 24 hours constantly grinding. And so definitely has like really good kind of like you can tell he's like, I just have to survive this, you know, and so I'm gonna be thinking about like what can I do to actually get through this moment. So I think that that kind of like, oh my gosh, this is their 24-7 all the time that that carries me beyond that kind of feeling of like how can each they get through each of these one of these moments versus there's just a lot of planning and foresight and thinking about how to how to get through these moments. Like um, like you might have with eight people that you're in chat with planning a raid, you know, in World of Warcraft, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Um, I wanted to throw back to Carl putting Mongo over to protect Donut and just what a sweetheart moment that was. Um no notes. Just it was it was the heart wrencher for that first part of the book. Um, I'm looking forward to the rest of the book, but I kind of I also devoured these really fast and I forgot about that until I got to it in my reread, and I was like, oh, precious, cut it.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

And the fact that the roombas of the level almost killed her.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I just love that. She said, like, no, she was going up, jumping up to kill the lemmer, the how do you say it? Lemer, lemmer? Lemur. Lemur, there we go. Um, like she's like, I was showing him how to do it. She's like, I love the I love that donut is like Mongo's like, I gotta, I'm my child. I gotta, yeah, I gotta be an example here of showing how to pounce, you gotta show him how to hunt. You know, it's just every time they talk about like Mongo, like I my brain gotta go like just like digging through people's bodies, you know. I'm always like, like, yeah, it's like there's like a heart blood and guts all over the place in my head, you know.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

So there's like a heartwarming moment there too, where um, or maybe not heartwarming, but heart tugging, um, where uh you know Carl is like yelling at donut, saying, like, you know, why would you do that? Why would you risk your life? He's like, I'm gonna protect my child, Carl. And he's like, And she's like, Carl, it's not a child, it's a pet. We don't risk our lives for pets. And yeah, Carl immediately is like, Oh, I shouldn't have said that.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Did I just say that?

SPEAKER_04 58:19

Yeah, yeah, donuts not just a pet anymore. And like, so there's like uh uh evolution of their um relationship uh happens like in that moment where he he realized he stopped seeing her as a pet as like a as like a whole person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:36

But she didn't like hearing that for sure. But then later he kind of like put a bandage on by calling her partner. But yeah, in the moment she was definitely kind of scared of offended by that for sure.

Favorite Fights With Heather The Bear

SPEAKER_02 58:48

So we have to go through our hit parade. Critter, do you have any fave moments that we didn't touch on so far in in the first half of this book?

SPEAKER_03 58:57

Oh man, I feel like we've like glanced on most things. So I I don't know. Um, it was interesting to me how we got that little like aside where Carl has a flashback from when he was a kid in the circus. Um, we got more into Carl's personal life. It definitely raised some questions for me. Like, why did his mom run away for two weeks? Like, what happened? What's going on there? I I don't know. I would definitely want to know more. It definitely left me wanting to know more. Um, I thought the fights were really fun. I I know there's gonna be we're gonna talk about one. I'm gonna talk about my favorite fight later.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Well, we can we can transition right into that because that was gonna be my next question. Let's talk about what our favorite baddies uh is, what our favorite baddie is for this part of this book. We just started doing this, our last guest brought it up, and it was a lot of fun. So this is one of the ones where I'm gonna put you fellas on the hot seat to pick what was your favorite mob or baddie that we saw in this half of the book. We'll make critter go first.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

Oh, okay. You said you're gonna you're gonna put them on the hot seat and then you I wanted to give them a missing seat. Okay, no, I think for me it was like without hesitation, Heather the Bear. Um, just because once again, I loved Carl's solution. Um, the fact that he like freed her was amazing. Uh, and the fact that that was part of the way that he convinced them to ultimately come to a resolution for the whole plot for the whole quest. Um, it was horrifying to think about the the worm arms, the like Carl, we love you, all of that stuff. Um, and just a bear, like a demonic bear on freaking what are they roller skates? It's just an image. It is quite the image. Um, but yeah, the fact that he like risked it all to heal her, and then you know, she was just like ended. Obviously, it was really dark and tragic, but yeah, because of that, like in Carl's doomsday scenario, the fact that there was a dark and tragic moment, once again, I mean he did it in book one, um, it just ended up being my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

Okay, okay. Brian, do you have a favorite baddie from this part of Facebook?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

I do the bear. That's that's what I'm gonna talk about. Uh a grizzly bear and black bear. Black bear. Black bear on roller skates, uh in a in a tutu and uh worms coming out of his hands, and like that's like the skull. I think the no fur, no skin on the skull, it's just like a well, and she's got like a hat that's like stuck to the bone. Like the description was hilarious and terrifying, and horrific. Um, yeah, and um uh I also like the little factory, right? When the battle starts, which is Mordecai goes, the black bear is the smallest of all the bears. Uh like a 10-foot-tall black bear. Like uh that that was a really funny moment. So I I really enjoyed that fight. Excellent choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

Matt, do you have a favorite batty?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

I mean, for goodness sakes, heather the bear has to be like the favorite for like wait. Well, if if if this makes sense, um, I feel like that's where Dinneman just has so that's like his fun. Like that, I feel like that's where he has fun. Like I I remember, I don't think this is a spoiler. I I'm gonna say it's not a spoiler, which is I think the books have these bad baddies in them, which is why we're doing this segment. And I remember being in like the uh the the Dragon Till Nexus panel, and like the person that read the audiobooks was describing a baddie, you know. And I was just like, my brain was just like I had never read anything by this dude, and I was just like, what is happening? I was like, what are you describing? This is insane. And so Heather the Bear to me is like Heather the Bear is that moment for my brain, uh like uh like just him having fun describing the wildest, you know, uh baddies that can exist, and uh and and it like it kind of catches you sometimes. You're like you almost like want to throw up in your mouth a little bit because you're like uh the parasitic worms is cream cone.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Yes, sorry. I wasn't gonna say the ice, I was gonna say the ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Uh but yeah, it's the baddie that almost took me out because that's when I just put the book down.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

So yeah, I mean of course the bear is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Heather the bear is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Yeah, it's it's the fun of just reading like what Deniman's coming up with next is insane. Um it keeps keeps me going uh through this book. Yeah. What's yours, James?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

Um honestly, so mine's a little bit of a cop-out. I like Zerena Signet as my I was hoping somebody would pick her because she's fun. She's she is hot, she's impressive, she's evil.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Um yeah, she's complicated.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Yeah, she's land fear of her Facebook status is complicated. Whoa. There will be no land fears. Should I take it back?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

I'm not saying it's I'm like saying it's slander, no spoilers here. Yeah, okay, no spoilers.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Uh so yeah, I I think Serena Singlet, um, at least for this part of the read, definitely technically fits the mold of baddie for me for this part. We'll see what it looks like for the second half.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

I will say there's probably a lot of people that read this that really hated the clowns. Because there's a lot of people that don't like clowns. And the description of them was just like, I don't know. So, I mean, shout out to them for doing a demonic circus.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Yeah, when we were going into a circus theme, I like mentally girded my loins. I was like, okay, this is gonna this is gonna be rough just based on book one. I know this is gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Fun concept though, that he was like holding his ticket like like a shield. Like you're gonna be able to do it. Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

I'm immune.

unknown 1:04:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

And didn't mention it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

What was actually great about it for me was um I I think clowns are creepy. And so a creepy circus, a creepy carnival, like actually really works for me. Like I was like, I was like, okay, I'm prepared. Let's do this. If it was like a happy, happy circus and there was like a creepy clown there, I'd lose my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

What is this and this is terrible because people would be like, Matt doesn't know that I just read a book. It was last year I read this book about a creepy circus, but it's like an old school book. It's like one of the classics, and I can't remember the name of it. It's like where this went, uh something. Oh, shoot. No, I know I need to.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

No, there was a goosebumps that I read that was like something dark this way comes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

I don't know what is that. Something wicked this way comes. Something wicked this way comes. Oh, is that it?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:36

Oh, has I believe if I remember correctly, it's on your wife's bookshelf right there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Brian cheated and I respect it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

That's what made it remind me of that because that has like a creepy circus uh thing to it. I was like, as I read that, I had written I had read that like last year, and when I read this, I was like, oh my gosh. I don't know if he again, not that he that was inspired by that or whatever, but it was just like the connection point, I was like, okay, like I don't need any more creepy circuses. Read something about it. We're done.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Okay, so we we did our baddie's proud, we checked for favorite moments.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Uh so oh I have to mention it. My favorite moment, Mordecai getting pulled into the safe room immediately, completely off drunk at this cast down, like saying something like grandma. Yeah, whatever that was. Like, and then like doesn't remember it, or whatever. Like they're like, like that was just like one of those moments I was like, classic.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:37

And the the bartender or whatever, like there's no weapons allowed in here or something. Um yeah, I actually think the the Mordecai moment was really uh illuminating um because uh he he suspects nothing. He suspects he doesn't suspect that they trapped him into being the manager, but he's devastated. This was not his plan. He was not, he did not want to be, he had he had things to do. And then he hijacked his whole now, he's stuck with them this whole time. Um and he keeps dropping hints about like what else is going on in the dungeon. Like this is you know, to the earlier point about like there's thousands of shows, like there's a lot more going on in the the dungeon than any of the crawlers, any of the crawlers even know about. Like there's stuff, you know, there's another uh guide town somewhere that crawlers don't get to see. And there's you know, and he's like whining because he you can't go meet so and so with this other like it's I I thought that was a really nice um wor world building and character building moment. This just like Mordecai's a lot more than just you know the NPC that shows up and goes, it's dangerous to go alone, take this, you know. That's uh he's much more than that. I like that peaceful.

MVP Awards And Character Standouts

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Absolutely. So with that, we do at the end, we do uh for each episode, we pick a runner-up and an MVP for this part of the book that we've read. Um we we because we went to a two episodes per book, we couldn't just pick an MVP. We needed to have a runner-up too. So, as far as I know, Critter gave you advanced warning. So I'm gonna make you go first this time, Brian. Can you tell us for the first half of book two, who is your runner-up for favorite character in this part of this book?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:33

Favorite for this part of this book. Um runner up. Uh, I think I think it has to be um I think it's it's a tie between Zev and Mortetime. I'm not sure. I love Zev. So I'm gonna go with Zev. Um Zev kind of showing up and um and helping Carl out in this like moment uh was was really fun and uh new and interesting and opens up a lot of possibilities. Um and um and then also the little little tidbit they can sign on behalf of Carl Click.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

It's funny the little pearls they drop in there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

Yeah, little little things that come out there. Um uh uh I generally don't remember if that if that matters in the future, but like I I was reading it and I'm like Zeb gets to sign on behalf of Carl. That's that's cool. Yeah, that's pretty wild. So uh, but yeah, um so I would say I would say Zev. Zeb is my runner-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Cool. Matt, do you have a runner-up?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

Yeah, it's gotta be a Mordecai. Uh okay. Um again, like I think there's that moment where Mordecai's like, well, now that I'm the manager, I can do some of these things that I couldn't do before, right? And all of a sudden, kind of like there's this moment where you're like, what does that mean? And why would it say that instead of just saying? And so like all of a sudden it's like, okay, like what are we gonna get from Mordecai? And like I love that I I love that we we start to kind of see how this is going to, you know, kind of like how important this could be, you know. Like all of a sudden he can say things that he couldn't say before. So yeah, I think I was excited again, like to Brian's point, just like the transition for him for Mordecai himself into like, oh great, this was not my plan. Um, yeah, I just I I really like kind of added some layers and dimension to the character. So yeah, uh Mordecai's my runner-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

Awesome. Critter, who did you pick for runner-up this time?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

I went back and forth, back and forth between Mordecai, who I feel like added a ton of value, and Mongo, because I just loved Mongo. And I usually, uh, if you've watched this or listened to this podcast, you know that I just go with the person that I loved the most in any given segment. Um, and you know, Mongo obviously added a lot of value. He saved, he saved Donut's life. Um, and he just had this, like, not that we need comedic relief, but he has this cute little, you know, because Donuts not like a pet, a cute fluffy pet anymore necessarily. You know, his like yips of glee whenever his triplicates show up, and the fact that they gave him his triplicates dynamite to run out and blow things up, and he was kind of upset by that, but it was still okay. Like, I don't know. Mongo's reactions to things are just so delightful for me, even if they don't happen all that often. Um, and the fact that like he got those caps on his teeth and he was scared at first by the lightning, and then once he got used to it, he was like really excited about it. It's just uh the way he describes Mongo is just so endearing that I couldn't help but love him. He's my runner-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:39

Okay. Solid, solid choice. Um, Mordecai is my runner-up. Um, because of all the things that Matt said, totally valid, and also all of the wild stuff with Grimaldi and the poisoning and how to beat the vine thing. Those are things that Carl, I don't feel like he had any way of knowing if they didn't have Mordecai. So the idea of them making it out of that quest alive, of Carl making it out of that quest alive, and then by extension, we would lose Donut as well. I feel like Mordecai was really crucial for this half of the book. So I'm going with Mordecai as my runner-up.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

I mean, as I said, we added a ton of value.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:27

A ton of value.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:29

So then we'll go back to you, Brian. So with Zev as your runner-up, who would you like to pick as your MVP?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Don't steal mine. Don't steal mine. Mongo.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

What?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:40

Mongo. Mango would have uh like donut would have died without mango. The roombas would have gotten donut. And uh and and and donut would have died without mango. Mongo, little baby mango, like, fought off the roombas ferociously.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

Little baby mango, who is now like six feet tall or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:59

Yeah, well, well, he not at this point he's still not at the time and and he levels up and becomes master than the biggest. I think he's turkey size.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

He was turkey sized during the Roomba fight. I or around that size. He was slightly bigger than Donut.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:14

Like, so yeah, he um because he struggles, he struggles to like you know, curl up on the thing and have to lay on his side like a dog. So um, but but uh but Mongo for sure, like like Donut would have would have died without Mongo. It has to have to be Mongo.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Absolutely. Um Matthew?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Ignore Brian, it has to be Mongo. Um so Brian stole my answer, of course. Um, Mongo like it's that whole, I think, um anything you put into a story like this where it's kind of like you know, it's kind of like little babies growing, and you know, like I'm a I'm a parent of three, and there's nothing like better than like seeing kind of like like growth and intelligence and all these things, like, and they just do something and you're just not expecting, you know, and they're taking on something, their own personality is coming. You know, like I think of Mongo that way in this moment of just like like the growth and the excitement and learning to kind of like listen or not listen, you know, when it when when Mongo's gonna listen or not.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

He's such a little toddler.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Oh, yeah, it's it has that kind of toddler feel, and like I can't help but like root for him, and he's always a star, like every time he like he steals the scenes, right? Like, like the so uh yeah, Mongo's Mongo's awesome in this moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:32

I can't believe you stole my answer. Yeah, I don't know how mom talk's gonna survive this.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Printer?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:41

Yeah, I mean it's Carl. I've been in love with Carl from day one. He's perfect. Like, honestly, I can tell he's my type. Uh he's just he's just perfect. I've it's no notes. He's obviously he's got it all, he's got empathy, he's got the brawn, he's got the brains. There's he's the MVP. That's all. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

Uh well, this time I didn't know until we got here what my choice was gonna be. Um, however, I did know it was gonna be Mongo.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:14

So I thought it was I thought I was being unique picking Mongo for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

No, I just like we donut doesn't donut doesn't live, right? Like, donut doesn't live without Mongo. And I think that that was hugely important to this first half of the book. Um not not to undercut what Carl did. Carl had Mordecai. Um Mongo. Mongo uh that's like a real trial by fire moment. I'm super proud of him. So yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:45

I love that for us. Mongo takes a huge lead for book MVP coming out of this episode.

Follow Us And Finish The Book

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

It's the very, very best. All right, well, we are done for tonight, and I want to say uh thank you to both of our guests. We appreciate you being here. And we want to say thank you to our listeners for tuning in to our third episode of season seven of Butt Are There Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sedai and Critter XD, with our special guests, Brian McLean and Matthew Innkeeper. Um, please don't forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and Butt Dragon to Pod, just one T on X. You can also find us on social media as Critter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. New achievement. You have the attention span of something more than a golden retriever next to a squirrel. One and a half books in. Wow. Reward. You get to finish this book for our March 31st episode. So we hope to see you there. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

Bye. Red little more.